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00:07Hello, Telesur English presents a new episode of China Now, a Wave Media's production that
00:12showcases the culture, technology and politics of the Asian giant. In this first segment,
00:17China Currents takes a deep dive into the week's top stories, from a Chinese chipmaker that said
00:22no to Apple's prices' demands, to a new alliance in Beijing that wants to make AI-powered robots
00:29safe for the workplace. Let's see.
00:36Hello, and welcome to China Currents. This week, a Chinese chipmaker said no to Apple's price
00:41demands, a new alliance in Beijing that wants to make AI-powered robots safe for the workplace,
00:47an update from northern Tibet, where a deadly earthquake has left families facing freezing
00:51nights, and finally, a Japanese spy drama that has stirred up controversy in China.
00:57Apple is used to having suppliers compete for its business, but when it went looking for cheaper
01:01memory chips, China's biggest homegrown DRAM maker wasn't willing to play along. On October 26,
01:07reports told of Changxin Memory Technologies, or CXMT, turning down Apple's request for memory chips at
01:14prices below those offered by Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron. With production capacity already tight,
01:20CXMT is prioritizing Chinese customers, which they have plenty. According to Huang Maoyan,
01:26Goal Group's Asia-Pacific head, nearly 90% of CXMT's capacity is already going to Chinese brands,
01:32including Huawei, Xiaomi, and Lenovo. For CXMT, Apple's business is no longer something that it is
01:37willing to chase. And that's a big change in Apple's playbook. The company's enormous orders
01:42made a considerable bargaining power, and suppliers often accept center margins in exchange for long-term
01:47contracts and the prestige of being part of Apple's supply chain. But that leverage works best when
01:53suppliers have spare capacity and need the business. That is not the case for CXMT. Memory is in short
02:00supply worldwide. AI data centers are driving huge demand for memory, and manufacturers are shifting
02:05investment toward higher-value products, which is tightening supply across the market, including
02:09the DRAM used in smartphones and computers. And because in the current conditions, customers are
02:14competing for limited supply, a chip maker has no reason to cut prices just to win another order.
02:21CXMT's growing domestic business gives it another advantage. Chinese smartphone and computer makers have
02:26turned to buying from domestic suppliers for reliable access to memory to help reduce their
02:31dependence on Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron. For CXMT, those customers provide a strong base of demand
02:37while the company continues to expand production. The company is also gaining ground globally.
02:43CounterPoint Research puts CXMT's share of worldwide DRAM revenue at 10% in the second quarter of 2026,
02:49up from 4% a year earlier. That makes it the world's fourth largest DRAM supplier behind Samsung at
02:5538%, SK Hynix at 25%, and Micron at 24%. That's still a long way from catching up to the industry
03:03leaders, but the pace of growth is striking. Industry veteran Wu Jinrong, former general manager of
03:09microdrive technology, believes that CXMT could overtake Micron in production capacity as early as
03:152027, putting it among the world's top three memory makers. For years now, China's memory industry has
03:21been trying to reduce its reliance on overseas suppliers. CXMT still has ground to make up,
03:26but its rising market share and strong domestic demand are changing its position in the market.
03:30Apple may still become a CXMT customer one day, but if the reported negotiations show anything,
03:37it's that Apple's buying power has its limits. And when a supplier's capacity is already spoken for,
03:43even one of the world's biggest tech companies may have to wait its turn and pay the going rate.
03:47Staying with technology, we move on to robots. China wants to get AI-powered robots out of the lab
03:54and into real workplaces. But before robots can work alongside people, there's an important question
03:59that still needs to be answered. Are they safe? On October 22nd, a new alliance focused on embodied AI
04:06safety and ethics launched in Beijing. It brings together 18 organizations, including research
04:12institutions and companies such as JD.com, Horizon Robotics, and Legi Robotics. Embodied AI refers to
04:19AI systems that can perceive the physical world and act on it, usually through robots. Unlike a chatbot
04:25giving you a bad answer, a robot making the wrong decision could drop a load, damage equipment, or injure
04:30someone working nearby. And China is already pushing to put these machines to work. In June, China's Ministry of
04:38Industry and Information Technology and the state-owned Asset Supervision and Administration Commission
04:44launched a joint initiative to train and test robots in real-world settings. The plan targets
04:50applications ranging from manufacturing and warehousing to healthcare, elderly care, and emergency
04:55response. By the end of 2026, it aims to validate and deploy robots in selected real-world scenarios,
05:02with a longer-term goal of enabling deployment at a scale of tens of thousands of units.
05:08But this creates a practical challenge. A robot that performs well in a controlled demonstration may
05:13struggle with unexpected obstacles, changing conditions, or people moving around it. And if
05:19something goes wrong, how do we know where the problems lie? The robot maker, the AI developer,
05:24or the operating company? The new alliance plans to help address these issues by developing safety and
05:29ethics frameworks, promoting standards for data collection and use, and building systems to test and
05:34evaluate safety. Data is another important piece of the puzzle. Robots need real-world examples of
05:39how objects, peoples, and environments behave to improve their performance. This is part of a wider
05:43push to establish common standards for China's robotics industry. In December of 2025, the Ministry of
05:49Industry established a National Standardization Committee for Humanoid Robots and Embodied AI. A broader
05:56standards framework covering the industry, including safety and ethics, was published in March of this year.
06:01For China, the immediate challenge is not just building robots that can do more, but making
06:06them reliable enough to use outside a demonstration hall with clear rules for testing, data handling,
06:11and responsibility when things go wrong. Now to Tibet. A magnitude 7.0 earthquake struck northern
06:18Tibet on the night of October 22nd, killing 16 people and injuring 76. A total of 339 homes were
06:25damaged or destroyed, leaving some families without a place to live. The hardest-hit communities sit at an
06:31average altitude of around 4,800 meters. Rescue teams worked through the night, searching damaged
06:37buildings and checking homes one by one. In remote pastoral settlements where families lived far apart,
06:44rescuers went door-to-door to make sure no one had been missed. After three rounds of checks, authorities
06:49reported no missing residents. With freezing nights approaching, getting people out of damaged homes was
06:54only the first step. The families then had to be set up with warm shelter. At one temporary shelter in
06:59Maru Township, over 50 tents have been set up and occupied by displaced villagers by Friday evening.
07:06Electricity has been installed in 36 of the tents, with work continuing on the rest. More than a total of
07:113,400 tents, 2,000 prefabricated housing units, blankets, winter clothing and heating stoves are
07:17being delivered to the area. Soldiers and emergency workers are also setting up shelters, distributing
07:22hot meals and helping residents move livestock away from damaged areas. The earthquake also disrupted
07:28communications and triggered rock falls along parts of National Highway 317, complicating access for
07:34rescue crews. Emergency teams worked to restore damaged mobile phone-based stations while road crews
07:40cleared fallen rocks and checked bridges and other infrastructure. By last Saturday, all 76 injured
07:46residents were receiving medical treatment, according to local authorities. Rescue and relief operations
07:51continue as teams inspect damaged buildings, monitor aftershocks and work to move residents into warmer
07:57temporary housing. For families who lost their homes, the immediate task is now to get through the cold
08:02nights ahead while repairs and longer-term recovery begin. Finally, a controversial TV drama.
08:08Japan's hit spy drama Vivant is back for a second season, and it has sparked controversy in China.
08:14The second season stars Masato Sakai and follows a secret Japanese intelligence unit known as Beshan.
08:21This time, the story brings China directly into the picture, portraying a Chinese intelligence
08:26organization as the enemy of Japanese operatives. In one of the most controversial scenes, Chinese agents
08:33torture a captured Japanese intelligence officer, cutting off his fingers and stabbing him in the abdomen.
08:38The issue being that these methods bear a disturbing resemblance to the torture techniques used by the
08:45Japanese military against Chinese resistance fighters during Japan's invasion of China.
08:50On October 25th, China's state broadcaster CCTV criticized the series for placing these acts of brutality onto the
08:57image of modern Chinese characters while portraying Japanese intelligence personnel as the heroes.
09:02It also accused the show of glorifying Japanese overseas operations and blurring the boundaries of the
09:08self-defense force's role. The series has been a major hit in Japan, with its season 2 premiere drawing an
09:1418.8% household television rating setting a record for a drama premiere on a Japanese commercial broadcaster this year.
09:21But its success has only intensified the backlash. Historical memory remains a sensitive issue in
09:27China and Japan, where disagreements over Japan's wartime aggression have continued for decades.
09:32The debate over Vivant also touches on wider disputes over how Japan presents its wartime past,
09:38including criticism of textbook revisions and debates over how the country's military role is portrayed.
09:43Fictional dramas, of course, have the liberty to invent characters and conflicts. But when a story uses a
09:49real country and draws unrecognizable historical atrocities, the way it assigns the roles of
09:53aggressor and victim can carry a meaning beyond the plot itself.
09:58And that's all for this episode of China Currents.
10:08We have a short break now, but don't go away because we'll be right back.
10:33Welcome back to China Now. In this second segment, Thinkers Forum welcomes Professor Xiangguan Jin in
10:39conversation with José Alejandro Sebastián Barrios, Professor at the Institute of International Relations
10:45of the University of Brasilia in Brazil. The topic, the Global South, a world order taking shape.
10:51Let's have a look. Good morning, Professor Alejandro and good evening, Professor Ying.
11:06So happy to have you guys joining us tonight in Shanghai. And to everybody else, I'm Ivy Wong from
11:13the China Academy. The China Academy is a platform dedicated to China's international communication.
11:19Our presence can be found on all major social media platforms, as well as on our own website.
11:26Great. Well, thank you very much for putting this together. And it's very nice meeting you again, Alejandro.
11:33As prior to the meeting, I've received a sequence of seven questions, I believe, from both the Brazil
11:41sides and the wave media. And I guess what I'm going to talk about is to, one, follow
11:48the order of the questions to provide my response and also to sort of coordinate my responses towards
11:57the current situation and ongoing situation, which is the ongoing election in Brazil.
12:05First and foremost, I guess, right now, we all kind of have this feeling that we are at the dawn
12:13of
12:13transformation. From the China side, we call it the collective rise of the global south and the
12:20historical moment of great transformation. How exactly shall we depict or understand that
12:28transformation? What China described as the transformation is not only just happening right
12:34now, it's an ongoing event that happens for a long period of time. In fact, if we take in a
12:41Marxist
12:41perspective, history has never stopped. The history itself is an ongoing process. So therefore,
12:50I would strongly argue against the notion that global order is a set of sort of principles and
12:58institutions and norms that will never change. On the quieter contrary, the global order is constantly
13:09in formation. Since the 19th century, not only I would say, the world system theory is that Marx himself
13:18would acknowledge that capitalism, capitalist world market expedited the speed of forming a capitalist
13:27world market expedited in the 19th century. And then, consequently, with the formation of a capitalist
13:33global market, global market, they have a order, sort of a global governance order in association with it to
13:42substantiate the ongoing, the flow, the hierarchical order that facilitates the flow of the capitalist world
13:50market. And within that market, there is a sort of a structure that is still influencing today's world. And
14:00the world system theory beautifully depicted as the core and peripheral structure. Now, I think we could
14:07put some nuances to the world system theory. The core and peripheral structure remains the same.
14:18However, in the past couple of decades, particularly in the past two decades, we kind of witnessed the
14:25disruption of the core and peripheral structure. That disruption featured most significantly with one,
14:36the emergence of China as quite a significant player on the global market. The Western observers
14:44tend to depict the emergence of China as a phenomenon that is of no difference from the previous
14:55sort of emergence of great powers. They were depicted as something like, oh, Germany emerges in the
15:05second wave of industrial revolution, challenging the British domination. And then they will also talk
15:12about it, how China, the Chinese emergence, really plays sort of features with no differences. The
15:20Japanese in the 90s, challenging the Americans, right? So they talked about it in a format that it's merely just
15:30changing of the leadership rather than changing of the structure of the uneven world order. But I think the
15:41significance of China, especially by acknowledging that China's emergence is part of the global South story,
15:50plays a crucial role. In the core and peripheral structure, the global South would have no hope
15:57but to be dependent on the core. And furthermore, they would say, if you want to emerge, if you want
16:05to
16:05transform, if you want to live a better life, there is no other option but to follow a capitalist model
16:12of
16:13modernization, or specifically our Webbian, the Marx Weber style of organization. And then the implication of that the
16:22Western or Marx Weber style of modernization suggests that there is no other option but to repeat all the trauma
16:32or the sort of
16:33atrocities that the capitalist emergence had experienced, i.e. colonialism. If you want to emerge,
16:43you will have to compete against others. You have to sort of curtail or just destroy all the potential competitors.
16:53And more importantly, if you want to get the resources and the wealth and materials
17:00to kickstart your industrialization or your modernization, you will have to get it from somewhere.
17:07Either you rob it, like colonialism did in the first place, or you somehow sort of follow capitalist model
17:17closely so that the capitalist will have the courtesy of sending you a bit of fund so that you can
17:26use that fund to develop. And that model was completely sort of challenged if we look at carefully the Chinese
17:36story of modernization or history of modernization. Chinese modernization didn't go through the process of
17:43colonialism, and it didn't go through the similar path as the Western modernization had gone through.
17:52And the effort was about to mobilize the agency of Chinese society and then to develop this technology
18:04and to improve the efficiency of its means of production, to improve the relationship of means of
18:12production and improves the efficiency of productivity. And only through that process,
18:18the accumulation for modernization was achieved. So I think in today's world, it is important to
18:30review the Chinese as well as the multiple different practices or attempts of modernizations in different
18:40parts of the world so that we would free ourselves from the mindset that
18:48a Webbian style of European or capitalist modernization is the only way forward. And through that lens,
18:57I guess we could come back to the story of sort of global south emergence and how significant
19:05a role that the global south play, not only just to the global south, but to enlarge or liberate human
19:13imagination for diverse approaches towards modernization. And that liberation is not only on the material level,
19:23but also on the ontological level. The ontological liberation requires us for sort of further collaboration,
19:33collaboration of such as this kind of online discussions between scholars and students to expose ourselves to the various
19:44practices of modernizations. And then to theorize and re-conceptualize the Chinese experience of modernization and
19:56de-dependency development so that we could, at least among the educated and intellectuals,
20:05envision or trust or believe in a possibility for alternative history or alternative approach towards the future.
20:14But at the same time, through this kind of exchange, I think sort of people-to-people exchange will form
20:23a stronger
20:24type of consensus, stronger than the elitist understanding of sort of global governance. Only as long as you can marry
20:34the elites,
20:35you can satisfy the economic and political elites interests, everything else will be resolved. No,
20:42a true Marxist approach would trust human agency and people's agency. So this type of people-to-people exchange
20:52really enhance the possibilities for a true joint force of liberation for the global south, as well as the
20:58global order. And another benefit of such people-to-people exchange would be, or having relevance to
21:07today's sort of situation. The ongoing discussion on Chinese social media, as well as the mainstream media,
21:16expressed a little bit of a concern towards the ongoing election in Brazil. The discussion goes like this.
21:26Lula seems to be lagging behind in comparison to the right-wing candidate. If Lula didn't manage to win the
21:35election, then Brazil will take a drastic right turn, or a drastic turn towards the right side,
21:44towards the capitalist side. And then if Brazil took that turn, then Brits will take a significant hit.
21:55And if Brits took a hit, then the whole global south initiative will take a hit as well. Of course,
22:04it's
22:04possible, but that understanding is not entirely fit for a sort of a Marxist approach of understanding the
22:15world structure. One, it seems like it's portraying the world order being determined only by a very small
22:27number of key figures. If there is no Lula, then there is no global south. It's just as we're saying,
22:36if there is no China, there is no global south. Or if there is no certain individual, there is no
22:42global south.
22:43This ontology, this way of understanding world order, is no different from the capitalist world
22:50order. It says, if there is no Donald Trump, everything will go back to normal. If there is no savior,
22:59then humankind will be sort of destroyed. Instead, a Marxist approach would say that people make history,
23:06right? So to put it here in the context of today's discussion, it's the joint will, it's the collective
23:17will among the global south that will determine the trajectory of the global south, as well as the
23:23world, not a certain setback in a certain specific political events. And additionally,
23:32even Lula leaves office, the will of the people, as well as the people who supports the institutional
23:41connections of the global, of the BRICS and the global, the running of the global south project,
23:49and the BRICS project would stay. And it is from those people's initiative, a true BRICS ideal,
23:58the global south ideal, or global south ideal would advance. So in that sense, I think it's even more,
24:05it gives more importance for people to people's exchange, because you are one individual politician
24:16could be voted out, but people will never be voted out. People are always the foundation of a society,
24:25as long as people, the collective people are aware of the situation, aware of their agency, and are
24:35willing to act upon their collective aspiration. So to conclude, I guess, the transformation is always
24:44happening, is ongoing, is of course ongoing. We just need to transform our way of understanding the world,
24:53and act upon this particular vision. And we also need to, I think, in this world vision, we need to
25:04put
25:05a complete trust upon the human agency, as well as come up with a clear awareness of the role of
25:15the
25:15intellectuals in connecting with the people and mobilizing people. That's all from me. Thank you very much.
25:22Thank you so much, Professor Ying. There's one point that Professor Ying raised that I really want to hear
25:28your thoughts on, Professor Alejandro. Do you think that China as a power is fundamentally, intrinsically
25:36different from the US and the UK? Hello, everyone. Good night and good morning for people who are in Brazil.
25:44Thank you. Thank you so much. I think, yes, there are fundamental differences between Chinese
25:51emergence and other great powers, emergence along
25:57the history of the last two centuries. I think now that China is a vital humanist force
26:06for the dialogue between civilizations and for the prospects of people-centered world order.
26:19And I think that China, different from other countries that have become great powers, which are not a lot,
26:26but China tells us, us people from the global south and countries from the global south, that we can make
26:37our way towards modernization in an autonomous way or an independent way.
26:42So we don't have to follow the path that has been established, whether by United States government, US Treasury, IMF,
26:54World Bank, and the Bretton Woods institutions, and also United Nations, or the path established by the SDGs, which is
27:03important, but there's a great challenge of how to finance the SDGs.
27:09And especially now only 16 or 17% of SDGs is right on track. So we are not fulfilling the
27:192030 agenda and its ambitious sustainable development goals.
27:25So I think what China really poses for the people from the global south is that modernization can be achieved.
27:31It is an autonomous project.
27:35It is also sovereign and it has to be made by articulating the principle of self-determination.
27:46And it can be done, yes, in an independent way. So for me, that's a fundamental difference.
27:54And I say it again, China, for me, is a humanizing vital force in international politics.
28:03And I think the true guarantor of peaceful coexistence, that's what I hope.
28:10But I just want to say that we are living, yes, in a world order, which is constantly taking shape.
28:19So now we live a profound transformation of the international order.
28:23I think that at the end of the Cold War, there was a widespread expectation that the Western political and
28:33economic model would become universal, gradually become universal.
28:38So modernization was often understood as a process of convergence to the Western path, to the Western principles, to the
28:49Western ideologies, in which countries would eventually follow a path already established by the Western countries.
28:57But of course, history has taken a more complex direction.
29:02So while Western countries consolidated their position after the Cold War, new centers of economic and political power, particularly China,
29:13but also India, expanded their influence.
29:16At the same time, military interventions and selective application of international rules exposed growing tensions between the principles of the
29:27existing international order, the so-called rule-based order, and the practices of its most powerful states, raising also a
29:36question about the legitimacy of the order.
29:39So for me, there are three interconnected processes that are transforming the contemporary international order, which is the distribution of
29:49global power, the erosion of Western legitimacy, and the emergence of a more plural international configuration.
30:00And these processes, and these processes, they challenge the expectation that the world would gradually converge towards a single political
30:10and economic model.
30:11And this is what I was saying about China.
30:15So it raises a fundamental question now.
30:18So as global power is redistributed, will the principles, the institutions, and the ideas that organize international relations change as
30:28well?
30:28And we people from the global south, we need to see a transformation of the global order.
30:33We need to build institutions from our own reality.
30:40This is why the dialogue among countries of the global south matters.
30:47And China and Brazil are particularly interested in this regard.
30:51Both are major countries of the global south.
30:53Their historical trajectories have produced different experiences of development, of state building, capacities, of international integration.
31:05So understanding this difference can really help us move beyond simplistic comparisons and explore more fundamental questions about development and
31:16international politics.
31:18So, yes.
31:20Professor, you would like to comment on Professor Alejandro's remarks?
31:24As I always stated, I'm completely in line and in agreement with Alejandro's comments.
31:33Even when the first time we met, we kind of shared quite a strong belief towards the importance as well
31:41as the possibilities of imagining a different world order, a non-hagemonic-centric world order.
31:49Okay, great that you can hear me because I have some internet issues.
31:53Thank you very much for this conference.
31:57I was very happy to see the message in our group.
32:01I'm from Russia.
32:02So I represent some Russian academic discourse here, even though I'm now a PhD student at Fudan.
32:09And I really like that both of the professors talked about civilization dialogue and about history.
32:17Because in Russia, if you know, we have this concept of state civilization, civilization state.
32:24It's like something contra-hegemonic projects towards rule-based order.
32:33However, I have some questions towards this project and I want to hear some other opinions because I'm maybe some
32:39biased because I'm from Russia.
32:41Like Professor E. said that history is made by the collective will of people.
32:47However, like in Russia, civilization project is said to be a contra-hegemonic.
32:52However, it's built from the state.
32:54So it's like say it's central civilization of product.
32:58So my question is, can it become a people-centered contra-hegemonic project?
33:03And how global cells preserve this project?
33:06I know that in China there is quite similar thing.
33:08It's by Professor John Lei Wei also from Fudan.
33:12How Brazil see this concept.
33:15It's also interesting for me because it's my PhD it is.
33:18I collect opinions.
33:20Because Natalie is my student, so I will refer the question to Alejandro.
33:26Because she heard enough of me.
33:29Thank you very much, Natalia, for your question.
33:34So I think that Brazil approaches, I mean, I'm speaking not for government,
33:41academic thinking that Brazil approaches this question from different historical experience.
33:48So Brazil is a country shaped by indigenous people, African diasporas,
33:55histories of different African diasporas, European colonization, and immigration also.
34:05So its identity cannot be reduced to one single civilization or cultural tradition.
34:11But for Brazil, imagining a non-hegemonic international order means recognizing the plurality of civilizations and historical experiences
34:23without allowing any single power to define universal values on behalf of everyone else.
34:33So this is not what Brazil thinks.
34:35It's what I think.
34:38It also means recognizing that sovereignty and cultural diversity must coexist with dialogue and international cooperation for us.
34:51And the Brazilian government engages in the development cooperation field as a South-South provider.
34:57So I would emphasize that a non-hegemonic order should not, this is important for not only the global South,
35:08but this periphery or semi-periphery of the international system.
35:13So non-hegemonic order should not simply replace one dominant civilization with another.
35:20And I'm saying this based on Latin American context.
35:25For us, it wouldn't work to only replace one hegemony for another or one dominant civilization for another.
35:32But maybe we are more interested in creating the conditions for different societies to participate in shaping the international order
35:42on more equal terms.
35:44So Latin America has been historically excluded, although we have engaged with international order building.
35:55And for us, the concept of non-intervention is very important.
35:59Non-intervention in domestic affairs.
36:01This is Latin American contribution for international politics.
36:07And for me, this is where Brazil's experience and its engagement, as Brazil considers itself a bridge for global South.
36:17So its engagement with the global South can contribute to the discussion.
36:21So transforming the conditions under which different peoples can participate in shaping world politics.
36:30Thank you very much for your excellent question, Natalia.
36:35It was very interesting and helpful for my dissertation.
36:38Yes.
36:39Thank you so much.
36:39Okay.
36:40Juan.
36:42We'll be the next in line.
36:44Hello.
36:44I wanted to first thank you, both of your professors and the people who made this reunion possible.
36:50As you argue, both of you, I think this is vital.
36:55First of all, I want to introduce myself.
36:58I'm Juan Francisco.
36:59I'm also doing a PhD in Fudan, and I'm from Argentina.
37:05So I also see the importance and the vital meaning of these discussions theorizing together.
37:13I think it's the path we should follow.
37:16And so it makes me truly happy to be in presence of such a company from the global South.
37:23So my question particularly is from Professor Alejandro Barrios.
37:28You mentioned, and I completely agree, that we can learn a lot on how China developed autonomously,
37:40and that the global South should follow the path of autonomous development.
37:48But in my opinion, autonomy is not equal to doing it alone.
37:54So my concrete question would be, what is your thinking or what are your thoughts about regional integration, specifically in
38:04Latin America?
38:05I know we had our golden age and luckily has ended in thinking regional integration as a platform to achieve
38:14autonomous development.
38:15And now we're kind of shifting towards another path or another interpretation of what we have to do.
38:23But for me, it's still something that really interests me.
38:30So in that regard, I want to know your opinion.
38:34What do you think about regional integration as a path for Latin America specifically to achieve autonomous ways of development?
38:42Thank you very much.
38:44Thank you so much, Juan.
38:45Very, very interesting question.
38:47We are neighbors and while you are aware of the several challenges that Latin American integration is going through, especially
38:56in the context of the,
38:58it's not only the right, but the far right, which became dominant in our America.
39:05So, yes, I believe that we can learn from the experience in building,
39:11China's experience in building its own development capabilities and pursuing modernization with a significant degree of autonomy.
39:21And yes, autonomy does not mean isolation or doing everything alone.
39:25It's not the experience of our countries.
39:28It's not the experience of what became to be known as the political constructions of the South America and the
39:36South America concept, for example.
39:39So I think that autonomy means having the capacity to make our own choices, to define our development priorities, but
39:48to cooperate with other actors in more or less equal terms.
39:53So this is why regional integration is so important.
39:57It has been in the past 50 years for our region, individual countries in the global South often lack the
40:08scale to develop technologies, to strengthen industrial capabilities.
40:14And, you know, you can see all the priorities of the Bretton Woods institutions, IMF, the World Bank.
40:21None of them is promoting the idea that global South countries should industrialize.
40:27None of them is doing it.
40:28So we have to do it for ourselves.
40:33Strengthen industrial capabilities and negotiate with major powers on equal terms.
40:38And by integrating our markets, coordinating our development strategies, investing in regional infrastructure, which is a challenge for South America.
40:49How can we connect the Atlantic to the Pacific, for example?
40:53So regional infrastructure and also sharing knowledge, we can build collective capabilities that would be much more difficult to develop
41:06individually.
41:06So for Brazil, this means a deepening integration in South America, also building strategic partnerships with China, countries from the
41:17global South.
41:18But we do face significant challenges.
41:22And so in South America, the ideological polarization and the rise of a particular kind of right, which is the
41:30extreme right, have made it more difficult to sustain our common regional vision.
41:34So how are we going to build it?
41:37So how are we going to build it?
41:37Mercosur is paralyzed.
41:40Also, Latin American integration, in a general sense, is paralyzed.
41:46The ECPAL, the Economic Commission for Latin America of the United Nations, is paralyzed.
41:55So it's been difficult to sustain a common regional vision.
41:59Regional cooperation often becomes vulnerable to changes in government.
42:05We have faced it in several eras of South American policy, and it interrupts initiatives and weakens institutional continuity.
42:16So just to conclude, our challenge is to build regional institutions and also long-term cooperation mechanisms that can survive
42:27political challenges.
42:29I think Mercosur, of course, will survive, but we have to strengthen it.
42:32And also, we need to understand integration not simply as a diplomatic project, but as a strategy for development, autonomy,
42:42and collective agency.
42:44When I lived in the border of Brazil and Uruguay, integration was in my – I can see the integration.
42:51I can cross from southern Brazil to Uruguay, and I didn't have to show my passport.
43:00But if I live here in Brazil, where is integration?
43:04Or if I live in the northern part of Brazil, where is the southern integration?
43:09I don't see it.
43:11So I think integration has to be a popular project also, connecting our societies.
43:18Very nice question.
43:19Thank you, Juan.
43:20Thank you so much.
43:21Thank you, Professor.
43:23Thank you very much for the response.
43:25It was great.
43:27Well, Professor Alejandro, you mentioned that Latin American countries need to work with China in their development.
43:35But we know that U.S. has been putting a lot of pressure on Latin American countries to distance themselves
43:41from China, right?
43:43So that hasn't worked on Brazil so far, but it doesn't mean that it won't work on Brazil, especially if
43:51Brazil elects a new president and takes a right turn.
43:55Do you think that Brazil will still be immune to such pressure should, you know, the right-leaning president comes
44:03to power?
44:04Great, great question.
44:05I think that China has already done a great deal improving its image in Latin America and joining and coming
44:12closer to Latin American countries.
44:15So you see it in Central America.
44:16So you see it in Central America, you see it in South America, too.
44:20You see it in Brazil.
44:21I think regarding what kind of political spectrum is in the Brazilian government, Brazil's relationship with China will remain an
44:35important strategic issue, regardless of changes in government.
44:42Although the form and intensity of cooperation may change.
44:50And also the great discourse, the great speech about foreign policy may change.
44:57Brazilian extreme right is more keen to align with the U.S. government, yes.
45:05But we also have internalized the relations with China.
45:11And since China is Brazil's largest trading partner, and bilateral cooperation extends beyond trade to infrastructure, energy, you know, science
45:23and technology.
45:24I think the engagement is very deep in our country.
45:28When I was going to China two weeks ago, in the same place, there was people from the health sector
45:34going to China.
45:35There was people from the infrastructure sector going to China.
45:39So this is not going to stop.
45:42I think our two countries, they have reaffirmed the commitment to strengthening the strategic partnership.
45:49So what is particularly interesting is that U.S. pressure has not necessarily pushed Brazil away from China.
46:00I don't think so.
46:02Maybe instead, I mean, it has reinforced the debate about Brazil's strategic use of autonomy and sovereignty.
46:14And also the need to diversify its partnerships.
46:18For me, the fundamental question is not whether Brazil should choose China or U.S., but how can Brazil maintain
46:29its autonomy to cooperate in this change and navigate in this changing world order that we are trying to understand
46:37here?
46:39Thank you so much.
46:41Well, let's not keep Helena waiting for too long.
46:43Hi.
46:44Great.
46:44So I am from Brazil.
46:47I am one of Alejandro's students.
46:49And we talk a lot in class and in our meetings about how the declining order of the world that
46:59we have seen building from many years to now, how it's declining with X from U.S.
47:09and other countries from the North.
47:14And my question is about how this integration that we seek to make between the South and other countries, viewing
47:28this social regime, this environment regime that we look to build.
47:34How can this integration not affect autonomy?
47:41How can we make this integration at the same time keep our country's autonomy and other countries' autonomy not to
47:48fall under the idea that one country has more power than the other, but create this balance between integration and
47:58autonomy?
47:59Thank you very much.
48:03Well, I do hear concerns, I think, from Latin America saying, does cutting back on dependence on the U.S.
48:10mean creating more dependence on China?
48:13So I think that's a very interesting question.
48:16That discussion is not new.
48:17And it's something related to actually what Kwan said in his question.
48:26First and foremost, the autonomy shouldn't be understood in a format of autarky.
48:35And it shouldn't be understood as if this is a complete dichotomy towards globalization.
48:47Because we're living in a society where pretty much everything that we have to sustain our life requires some form
48:56of cooperation.
48:57And particularly in today's society, that chain of cooperation was extended longer and longer.
49:08That has to say that, I mean, I always raised a sort of similar question to my non-Chinese students.
49:16Look at your computer, look at your clothes, and they all come from somewhere.
49:21Most likely not inside your own country.
49:24Even to the Chinese.
49:26When Chinese believed that everything was built by China, I could ask them to think about their relationship with, for
49:34example, the cobalt mine in Congo.
49:37Right?
49:38Because cobalt is a crucial element in building a battery.
49:44And all batteries, all electric devices that contains battery would require a transnational collaboration so that they could get this
49:55crucial element.
49:57Right?
49:57So collaboration on a global scale is the fundamental principle for today's world.
50:06So the actual target for challenge should not be the collaboration itself.
50:12It should be the unequalness or unevenness of such a collaboration.
50:19That is the dependency.
50:21Dependency doesn't mean that we need each other to survive.
50:26Dependency actually means that without you, I cannot survive.
50:30This was the situation during the colonial time, particularly striking even after the end of colonialism.
50:41Places like Cuba, like Ghana, is one of my favorite examples, is that even after colonialism, even after their independence,
50:56their economic structure was so integrated into the colonial core that they cannot live, they cannot literally survive without continuing
51:06on the trade with the colonial master.
51:08And because their whole economic structure was transformed during the colonial period in a brutal format, the biodiversity in Latin
51:20America or in Caribbean area, plantations in Caribbean, such as Cuba, was permanently destroyed so that it could give way
51:31to sugarcane plantation.
51:32And then you can all expect to restore that biodiversity overnight or to restore that biodiversity even through a significant
51:48period of time, decades.
51:49People need to live. People need food to survive.
51:54So in that sense, even after colonialism, the level of dependency, the dependency in the literal sense that without colonial
52:04trade, without imperialist trade, people will die, continues on.
52:10But it seems like nowadays, the hegemonic powers has substituted the meaning of dependency and replaced it with a misunderstanding
52:26of cooperation.
52:27The reality is we need to cooperate with each other because the complexity of our life requires international cooperation.
52:37So the hegemonic power replaced the notion of dependency with their interpretation and pretending that cooperation is a form of
52:47dependency.
52:48That's exactly what Donald Trump would describe dependency.
52:53And even worse, Trump says America became dependent on the global South countries because they're selling cheap products and they're
53:05stealing jobs and American people being stolen off is a form of dependency.
53:09This is completely outrageous.
53:13So what I hope to articulate is that we need to restore the actual meaning of dependency and then we
53:22need to separate the notion of dependency with cooperation.
53:26Cooperation is inevitable. Dependency can be eliminated.
53:32And by eliminating dependency, it doesn't mean eliminating cooperation.
53:39And the further question is, what kind of a cooperation does not bear the characteristic of dependency?
53:49I think the answer will be very simple.
53:52Would you have a choice if you don't, if you stop that cooperation?
53:57And I think the answer to that question would be very obvious.
54:02You can survive without China.
54:05And henceforth, it's not a form of dependency.
54:09But if the US pulled out all the support, many of the countries in the global South will literally sort
54:18of become devastated.
54:20And then so China would do the vision for China would be how can we reinstall or support the national
54:32autonomy in a sense that even without external support that the nation itself could survive on the minimalist, which means
54:41you have food security.
54:43You can produce food locally, you have some sort of circulation that allows a healthy exchange to go on, not
54:55on the international level, but at least on a sort of regional level.
55:00There goes the regional, sort of regionalization ideal.
55:05In my ideal world, Brazil, for example, the main export grain or corpse from Brazil would be soybean.
55:16And then in my ideal world, Brazil could sell that soybean to China, but could also sell it to America.
55:26But more importantly, you have a healthy economic environment in the surrounding region,
55:34i.e. like Latin America, so that you don't have to travel that far to sell your soybean in exchange
55:41for the much needed other materials to support the healthy growth of the Brazilian economy.
55:48That requires regional cooperation.
55:51And that regional cooperation is not only just for the best interest of Brazil itself.
55:57It's for the best interest of the region so that they could have stronger bargaining power against the biggest buyer
56:05in the world.
56:07In the past, the US, Europe, and in recent years, the emerging China.
56:13As long as you can regionally integrate it together and have alternative to sell it to, as an alternative to
56:21circulate, healthy economic circulation, then you stand as a powerful sort of entity on the already integrated global market.
56:33And I think that has already been sort of has already happened in some sense, right?
56:42For example, China is not only just selling the electric cars to Brazil.
56:52They're setting up factories there and those factories has to be regulated by the Brazilian law.
57:00And then the Chinese company investing in Brazil has to be held responsible for whatever kind of things that they
57:10have done in Brazil.
57:12And in the past, the Americans would do, hey, if you sabotage, if you punish my company, my warship is
57:23going to come over and penalize you.
57:24And I think that model of sort of world politics should be over in the in the future, in the
57:35very near future, largely because Brazil and many other global South countries nowadays have an option.
57:43If the Americans didn't provide you with the loans with sort of a market and you have other places to
57:53go.
57:53Now, the only remaining problems is what if the hegemonic power go bonkers and sort of send warships to achieve
58:04his goal, just like what they were doing in Iran, in what they were doing in Venezuela.
58:11Now, this element was not yet being contained.
58:18But I remain hopeful that through regional collaboration, the global South countries would eventually grow some form of mechanism to
58:30deter such a violent format of intervention.
58:36Right now, the economic intervention seems to be stopped because there is an alternative option to go to, but the
58:46violent format of intervention was not yet blockade.
58:51And that could potentially be the next.
58:54Thank you so much.
58:55As our discussion is drawing to a close, I like to thank everybody again for participating in tonight's discussion.
59:03For those of you who didn't get a chance to ask questions directly to the professors, please leave an email
59:08to me and I will help everybody connect with these lovely professors.
59:13So, thank you again for being so generous with your time.
59:18And for those of you who are hungry for wise voices such as that from Professor Ying and Professor Alejandro,
59:25please follow the China Academy.
59:32And this was another episode of China Now, a show that opens a window to the present and future of
59:37the Asian giant.
59:38Hope you enjoyed.
59:39I'll see you next time.
59:41Bye.
59:42Bye.
59:44Bye.
59:46Bye.
59:48Bye.
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