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00:09Hello, Telesur English presents a new episode of China Now, a WeMedia's production that showcases
00:16the culture, technology and politics of the Asian giant. In this first segment,
00:21China Currents take a deep dive into the week's top stories, from China's bid farewell to former
00:27Premier Zhu Rongji, who died in Beijing on August 12, at the age of 98. To Europe's trade dispute with
00:34China reaching a new point of contention. Let's see. Welcome to China Currents. On the 18th of August,
00:45the Chinese national flag was lowered in Beijing's Tiananmen Square, as China bid farewell to former
00:50Premier Zhu Rongji. He died in Beijing on the 12th of August, at the age of 98. He was known
00:58for his
00:58decisiveness and relentless drive for reform. Born in Changsha, Hunan Province in 1928, Zhu went to
01:05Tsinghua University in 1947. At the end of 1987, he became the mayor of Shanghai. During his time there,
01:14he pushed to streamline government approvals, improve the business environment for foreign investors,
01:19and accelerate the development and opening up of Pudong. He also played a key role in establishing the
01:26Shanghai Stock Exchange, helping turn the city into one of China's most important windows to the
01:32outside world. In 1991, Zhu was appointed Vice Premier of the State Council. Seven years later,
01:39he became Premier. As Premier, he oversaw major reforms to China's tax and fiscal system,
01:45giving the central government greater control over public finances. When the Asian financial crisis
01:51hit, his government relied on measures including increased government bond insurance and infrastructure
01:56spending to stabilize the economy. He also pushed forward reforms of state-owned enterprises and played
02:03a central role in competing negotiations for China to join the World Trade Organization. After stepping down
02:09in 2003, Zhu largely withdrew from public life. He also donated income from his published work to
02:17education and poverty relief programs. Now, one of the key figures who stood at the forefront of China's
02:24economic reforms has passed away. His willingness to take responsibility, push through difficult reforms,
02:31and get things done has become an important part of the history of China's reform era.
02:36Now, let's turn to Europe. Europe's trade dispute with China has a new point of contention.
02:43On the 14th of August, the European Central Bank published a report arguing that Chinese companies
02:49in strategic industries, including automobiles, semiconductors, solar panels, and wind turbines,
02:55receive significantly more government support than their counterparts in the United States and the Euro area.
03:02According to the report, companies that benefit from greater state backing tend to post stronger export
03:08performances. The underlying concern is that these industrial policies may be reshaping global trade
03:15flows and intensifying pressure on European manufacturers, potentially leading to job losses
03:21and de-industrialization. But there is an important distinction here that can be easily lost.
03:27Government support is not the same thing as winning on subsidies. The ECB's research shows a correlation
03:34between government support and export performance. But that does not, by itself, prove that Chinese
03:41governments are competitive, mainly because of government subsidies. Because China's manufacturing
03:46strengths today cannot be explained by a government check alone. Over the past several decades, China has built
03:54one of the world's most complete industrial ecosystems. Raw materials, components, logistics, supply chains,
04:01and final assembly are often concentrated within the same country. And China's huge domestic market
04:08allows companies to scale up quickly, while intense competition forces them to cut costs and improve
04:15their products. The combination helps explain why Chinese companies have been able to move so quickly into
04:21global markets, from solar panels to wind turbines to electric vehicles and batteries. Reducing all of that to
04:29government subsidies risks missing what is actually happening inside China's manufacturing sector.
04:35Australian academic Warwick Powell, a professor at Queensland University of Technology, argues that
04:41part of Europe's loss of industrial competitiveness comes from Europe's own long-term shift towards
04:48financialization and underinvestments. Companies, he argues, have increasingly prioritized short-term
04:54financial returns, rather than sustained investments in manufacturing and industrial upgrading. And there
05:01is an interesting contrast emerging within Europe itself. Some European countries are trying to
05:07shield their markets from Chinese products. Others are actively trying to bring Chinese manufacturers in.
05:13Hungary, for example, is extracting BYD to build a passenger car factory, while Chinese batteries and
05:20auto parts companies are also moving into the country. Meanwhile, Spain has also partnered with
05:25Sherry to restart electric vehicles production at a former Nissan plant in Barcelona. For Europe, Chinese
05:33companies can bring more than products. They can bring capital, factories, supply chain, and manufacturing expertise.
05:40If a Chinese automator builds a factory in Europe, the car produced are no longer simply Chinese imports.
05:47And when a Chinese battery company builds its local supply chain, it is bringing more than
05:52competition. It is also bringing investment and jobs. So perhaps the bigger question for Europe is not
05:58simply, should we stop China? It is why China's manufacturing has become so competitive, while European manufacturing
06:06manufacturing has been losing ground. Tariffs can make it harder for China's products to enter Europe,
06:12but tariffs cannot rebuild European supply chains. They cannot automatically bring down energy costs.
06:18They cannot enforce European companies to invest more in manufacturing. More importantly, Chinese companies
06:25are no longer simply selling products to Europe. They are increasingly investing in Europe, building factories,
06:31and establishing local supply chains. This means the relationship between China and Europe is changing.
06:37For Europe, Chinese manufacturing is no longer just an export competitor to be contained. It is also a
06:44partner that Europe cannot ignore as it tries to upgrade its industrial base and rebuild manufacturing capacity.
06:51Of course, Europe has every right to choose protectionism. But if those policies end up shielding uncompetitive
06:58legacy industries or driving up cost for European consumers and deterring Chinese investment, then a fundamental
07:05question arises. Who exactly is being protected? Instead of constantly asking why China has become so
07:12competitive, perhaps Europe should ask why hasn't Europe itself become more competitive? At that same
07:19question, how far Chinese supply chains have come, is exactly what's putting Apple in a tough spot.
07:24Apple is testing memory chips made in China. And this time, Washington once again has something to say
07:31about it. According to reports, Apple has begun testing Darm chips made by Chinese memory chip
07:37manufacturer CXMT Changxin Memory Technologies. The company is reportedly considering using the chips in
07:44iPhones and Macs sold in the Chinese market. For Apple, the logic is straightforward. The global memory chip
07:50market is tightening as the AI boom drives huge demand for high-bandwidth memory and other forms of
07:57memory. Prices are rising, supplies are getting tighter, and finding additional suppliers in China
08:03simply makes business sense for Apple-China operations. But Washington saw it differently.
08:10US Commerce Secretary Howard Ludnick has publicly said that Apple should not source the memory chips used in
08:17Macs from Chinese suppliers. Apple may also need approval from the White House before finalizing the deal.
08:25And this would not be the first time something like this has happened.
08:29Back in 2022, Apple planned to test another flash memory from another Chinese chip maker,
08:35Yangtze Memory Technologies, YMTC. But after pressure from Congress and US restrictions targeting the company,
08:43the plan was put on hold. Now CXMT appears to be facing a similar situation.
08:50Meanwhile, Micron, one of the major US memory chip manufacturers, has warned that Apple's move
08:57towards Chinese suppliers could put additional pressure on the American memory industry.
09:02For years, Washington has pushed to de-risk critical supply chains and reduce US dependency on China.
09:10But at the same time, China's own manufacturing capabilities have continued moving further up the
09:16technology ladder. From YMTC to CXMT, we are watching the same story play out again.
09:23And what this really shows is how much the global semiconductor industry is changing.
09:29The progress made by Chinese memory chip companies reflects years of investment and technological
09:34development. And global supply chains by their nature tend to form around efficiency, cost,
09:40and comparative advantage. Whether Apple ultimately uses CXMT chips remains uncertain. But for companies
09:48operating between globalization, national security, and increasingly fragmented supply chains,
09:54choices that once looked purely commercial are becoming much more complicated.
09:59Finally, let's turn to the film industry. China's box office has recently produced a surprising dark
10:05horse, Once Upon a Time in the Middle East, released around the same time as the Hollywood blockbuster
10:12The Odyssey. The Chinese film has managed to break out through unexpectedly strong word of mouth and
10:19box office performance. The story follows a Chinese chef named Xu Fu trying to support his family and pay off
10:26steps. He travels to the Middle East and takes a job at a Chinese restaurant called Long Restaurant.
10:32When war breaks out, he gets caught in the fighting and eventually joins local people in protecting
10:38children orphaned by the conflict. But if you expect a conventional war movie, this movie may surprise you.
10:45Because Xu Fu is not a hero. He went to the Middle East to make money. As war broke out,
10:51he repeatedly reminds people that he is Chinese and makes it clear that he wants no part in the conflict.
10:57But he and his friends were dragged into the chaos and forced to cook for different forces.
11:02And that is precisely what makes this film interesting. Instead of turning war into a mission
11:08waiting for a hero to complete, it presents war from an outsider perspective. There is no hero,
11:14there is no enemy, there is no size to be picked. It shows the devastating impact of wars on the
11:19country,
11:20on ordinary people, especially on children, on the American soldier and how extremists were created.
11:26One viewer who speaks both English and Persian praised the film for showing sympathy towards ordinary Iraqis
11:33and exploring why extremist movement emerged while also avoiding the idea that every American soldier
11:40is a villain. Instead, it recognizes that some of these young soldiers are themselves caught up in
11:46a much larger war machine. And that distinction matters, because when a war movie stops telling you
11:53who to hate, it can start asking different questions. What does war itself do to people? Why does war happen?
11:59Who decides to fight it? Who pays the prize? Can third party really stay out of a war? What does
12:05it mean to win a war?
12:06And can there really be a winner in any war? And at almost opposite end of the spectrum is another
12:12Chinese film, Niu Lai. Its unlikely breakout is almost a direct challenge to the logic of the modern
12:19film industry. The animated feature reportedly cost just 20,000 yuan, roughly $280 to make. And the core
12:28creative team consisted of just two people, director Xing Yu Men and his mother, who is in her 60s. They
12:35spent
12:35five years creating the film by hand, producing 86 minutes of animation. The model is crude, the
12:42animation can be choppy, and the voice acting is awkward. Some viewers joke that it looked like a
12:47PowerPoint animation from 20 years ago. But there is something strangely fitting about that in 2026.
12:54At a time when AI can generate polished videos at scale, this kind of painstaking, almost stubbornly
13:00handmade production has taken on a meaning of its own. It is not optimized for efficiency. It has not even
13:07tried to please an algorithm. In a strange way, it feels almost like an act of resistance against the
13:14technology race. And when the film opened, its prospect looked exactly like what you might expect.
13:21On the 5th of August, its first day box office was just 342 yuan, and that's less than 50 US
13:29dollars.
13:30Then everything changed. On the 14th of August, viewers began sharing some of the film's bizarre
13:36and unintentionally hilarious scene online. People were making fun of the movie, but they were also
13:42telling others to go to see it. Everyone wanted to find out for themselves just how bad a movie can
13:48be
13:48in 2026. Then the mockery quickly turned into a meme. Handmade animation. A 20,000 yuan challenge
13:57against trillion dollar AI. I could make that too. These jokes spread across Chinese social media.
14:04And suddenly people weren't buying tickets simply to watch a movie. They were buying tickets to take
14:09part in an internet phenomenon. They went to see it, posted their tickets, made memes, created their own
14:15content, and shared their experience with others. The movie itself became a kind of social currency.
14:22A way of saying, I was there, I saw this ridiculous thing happen. And that online attention quickly
14:27translated into box office numbers. On the 15th of August, daily box office jumped from around 4,000
14:35to 876,000 yuan. Screening increased from just 16 to more than 2,000.
14:41By 18th of August, the film has passed 20 million yuan in cumulative box office, with platforms
14:49predicting that it could eventually crush the 100 million yuan mark. While major studios are calculating
14:55returns on investment, polishing visual effect, and carefully planning release date, audience themselves
15:01have turned a movie that was initially mocked as a bad movie into a potential box office hit.
15:07And perhaps the reason is surprisingly simple. In an age when AI can produce beautiful images by the
15:14thousands, people may become more interested in seeing evidence that an actual human being
15:20was behind the work. It can be rough, it can be absurd, it can even be objectively bad. But it
15:27is
15:27unmistakably human. And that's maybe why Neolai has connected with audiences in such an unexpected way.
15:34And that's our four stories of the week. Thank you for watching China Currents and we will see you next
15:39time.
15:48We have a short break now, but don't go away because we'll be right back.
16:01Welcome back to China Now. In the second segment, the Roughly Chinese podcast presents the unfiltered
16:07section and welcomes Mustafa Haider Said, the executive director from the Pakistan China Institute,
16:13who will address the new Mecca agreement between Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan.
16:18Later, on Thinker's Forum, Professor Shi Wanjin, Professor at the School of International Relations
16:26and Public Affairs in Fudan University, in conversation with Emily Wilcox, Professor of Chinese Studies
16:32in the United States, will be discussing Communitas, Governance and the De-dependency Development of the Global South.
16:40Let's have a look.
16:45Hello guys, welcome back to the Down Filter. Right now we heard a great news from our best friend Pakistan.
16:51They had an agreement, it's called the Mecca Agreement, between Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan.
16:57Many people are saying it's a micro NATO, basically a mutual defense clause, fundamentally alter the
17:04geopolitical landscape of Middle East, but many are saying otherwise. And currently we heard not much
17:11from the American government, but many from the American think tank are already panicking.
17:16Of course, we're going to have our good friend Mr. Mustafa Haider Said from Pakistan China Institute,
17:22executive director. Welcome again.
17:24Thank you very much, brother. It's always a pleasure and delight to chat with you.
17:30So the first thing, of course, is the joint defense agreement. Many from Guardian, from Washington Post,
17:36and from CFR are calling this agreement a NATO-style mutual defense clause. But I heard from Lebanese,
17:45my friends, and from UAE and from Saudi Arabia, they say it's not that much, because Turkey is already
17:51a NATO member and they had some conflict with other countries, which did not activate the defense
17:58pact. So some are saying, okay, defense pact is not that, how do you say that, assaultive against
18:04other foreign countries, but many are saying otherwise. So would you label this defense agreement
18:10as a NATO, little NATO style, or would you rather use other definition?
18:14I don't think that it has to be labeled as anything. We don't have to compare it to NATO,
18:21or we don't have to compare it to some other multilateral agreements. I think it's the Mecca
18:24defense agreement. It's unique in and of itself. And I don't think it should be labeled as anything
18:29else. I think it's very unique. I think it's the first of its kind. And we see that a very
18:35long-term
18:38strategic relationship between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Turkey has culminated
18:45into institutional framework. Of course, the connecting thread in this Mecca defense
18:51agreement is Pakistan, because Pakistan enjoys a very close relationship with Turkey independently,
18:57and a very close relationship with Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia and Turkey have good relations,
19:02relations. But I feel the super connector within this is the thread is Pakistan. And I think that
19:09it is about time that a proactive initiative like this has taken place. We had to eventually go
19:18beyond rhetoric, policy statements, press conferences, more Ministry of Foreign Affairs press releases,
19:25to something solid, something institutional. And as you know, there's a possibility and a chance
19:32that Egypt may also join this agreement in the future. So this is a very unique
19:39manifestation of a very long-term relationship that has come into force. And I think that it is,
19:47at the same time, a product of circumstance, thanks to our dear friend Benjamin Netanyahu,
19:54that the Muslim world is finally waking up and smelling the coffee. This Mecca defense agreement will
20:01be one of the steps, one of the many things that will lead to the revision of the security
20:12infrastructure of the region, which has a very long time, for as long as you and I have been alive,
20:18because we both are very young, for as long as you and I have been alive, has been guaranteed and
20:24underwritten by the United States of America. But we are witnessing, in our lifetime, the transition
20:31from the United States to other manifestations. I think it is also good and interesting to see
20:38that the security infrastructure is not being replaced by a China-led security infrastructure.
20:44Right. This is a lot of the times this has been debated because China, it seems, is not ready.
20:50It is not in a proactive, assertive position to take on a leading role in global affairs,
20:57in other neighborhoods, in other regions. So the countries are developing indigenous mechanisms
21:05to protect themselves. They are now no longer looking at big powers outside of the region.
21:10They are looking at local solutions, which is very good, in my opinion, which is very consequential.
21:16And we see, Zafir, the role of Pakistan emerging as pivotal in this whole exercise,
21:23as pivotal, whether it's bringing the parties to the table, whether it is again going to ceasefire
21:29again, as we know the Iran and US is negotiating again. So we see the role of Islamabad as to
21:34be very,
21:35very crucial. And we had the Saudi-Pakistan defense agreement, which gave some of our neighboring
21:41countries a lot of sleepless nights. But now, Turkey is coming into that. I think a game changer.
21:50But I just want to address one thing. You know, some people are saying it's a Muslim NATO. But Zafir,
21:56we never called the larger NATO the Christian NATO or a Catholic NATO.
22:04So why this racial slur to say it's a Muslim NATO? Did we call the other NATO, the actual NATO,
22:12the Christian NATO? Because they're mostly white countries with Christian faith. But we never
22:18called it the Christian NATO. So why labeling it Muslim? I think that is not required. It's unnecessary.
22:24And I think that the countries which are having sleepless nights should not worry because this is a
22:31defensive posture. It is to protect the sovereignty of our countries and to also ensure that any future
22:38attack will be given a very collective, effective response. Of course, I'm going to say the first thing
22:45is we are very happy to see Pakistan, our brother, coruscating brilliantly in such a chaotic world and
22:51bringing our world more peace, more stability, and the voice of justice. And the second one,
22:58as you mentioned, people are calling it the Muslim agreement. But we have Iranian friends that are not
23:03very happy on the agreement for sure. From our perspective, we see Pakistan successfully mediating
23:10between Iran and America, which is a very iconic and very unique voice, can be trusted in such a chaotic
23:20world. But if Iran's foreign relations department and some government leaders and politicians are
23:28heavily criticizing and actually lambasting the agreement, what are some assertions or comments
23:34you have on maybe Iranians being angry about this agreement? I think that I don't understand,
23:41frankly, and maybe you can explain to me why there is a reservation from Iran on this agreement.
23:47Because Pakistan, the way Pakistan has supported Iran during this crisis, no other country has.
23:53No other country has supported Iran like Pakistan has supported Iran. And when their national security
23:59advisor visited Pakistan before he was assassinated, their national security advisor, the professor,
24:05he visited Pakistan before the war. And then, of course, he was assassinated in the war. He said,
24:09now we know who our friends are, because the first wave of bombing had already taken place in Iran. And
24:15we
24:16had given the refuge to some of the second tier military in Quetta in Balochistan of Iran. We gave them
24:23refuge protection during the bombing from Israel. And we have done much more, actually. But I don't want to
24:30go into those details right now. But the way Pakistan has supported Iran, Iran's sovereignty publicly and
24:36done a lot. I think Iran should be very grateful to Pakistan. Iran should not be criticizing it.
24:43And Saudi Arabia has also had a very positive, I think, position overall towards Iran. And these
24:49three countries have condemned the Israeli war, the illegal Israeli war on Iran. So this is a force
24:56multiplier for Iran. Can you share with me what are their concerns about this agreement?
25:00Well, I see analysts from there, from official half-state media, saying maybe they have great
25:10influence on Houthis. Like Houthis is going to fight the Saudi Arabians. And now with the
25:15agreement, the Mecca agreement, it's going to nerf and cut influence on how the defense axis,
25:22maybe the defense arc, will have influence on the global, on the bigger page.
25:26Houthis have just killed three Pakistanis the other day also. There was an attack on a vessel
25:32which had three Pakistanis. Iran has to play ball. Iran has to also understand its own limitations.
25:41Iran should not think that it is bigger than any other country or that it can get away with anything.
25:49Every country has to play by some rules. I think the Houthis need to be reined in.
25:56Right? Just attacking these vessels and killing civilians will not advance the interest of Iran.
26:02It won't help Iran. It will just alienate and isolate Iran. So Houthis should be reined in.
26:08If they were attacking Israel, that's fine. But, you know, Pakistanis sailors, Pakistanis have been
26:15killed two days ago and you might have read about that. And we believe it was an attack by Houthis.
26:21And Houthis are controlled by who? By Iran. So Iran has to play ball and Iran should be grateful,
26:27Pakistan, for saving its skin.
26:29From a military capability perspective, like we understand South Arabia got money and
26:35Turkey got very good high tech on drones. And Pakistan obviously got a magnificent military
26:42experience, showed a totally win against Indian military force and a very good complement. So what are
26:53some, how do you say that? What specific synergies are expected in terms of defense manufacturing and
26:58technology sharing for not only the Mecca agreement? And because many are saying we can't
27:04anticipate Pakistan to work with more regional countries to build Middle East a new other system
27:12of security if Donald Trump or other American powers are going to fade away from Middle East.
27:17Pakistan is the only country which is a battle hardened country. We have been at war with,
27:24we have had wars with India, real-time wars, not just practicing in the sky. We've had
27:28real wars with India. We are fighting real-time insurgency on our western border with the Taliban.
27:34So our military is battle hardened. We are ready for war, you see. And we know how to fight. I
27:40think
27:40that the whole world has witnessed. And under the great leadership of the great statesman,
27:46Field Marshal Syed Asim Muneer, I think Pakistan has entered a new era. And also, I think you missed one
27:53point, Pakistan is also a nuclear power. So I think that we have to look at this agreement from a
27:59perspective of regional changing geopolitics, where the US is unable to guarantee the safety of the GCC
28:08countries, where we see a more offensive, a more aggressive, and a more transnational actor in the
28:14world. And that's why we have to look at this agreement from Israel that is willing to go into
28:16different countries, Lebanon, Gaza. It's already wrecked Gaza and committed the highest level of
28:23human rights abuses. Allegations are not there, but these are actual abuses. It's a genocidal state,
28:29but it has gone into Lebanon. It's going crazy. It will go into any other country for its Zionist aims.
28:36So this region needs stability, peace and harmony. And Pakistan is now coming out as a mantle of peace.
28:44Saudi Arabia has a lot of money. It has the most money out of all the GCC countries. It has
28:48the most
28:49influence out of all the GCC countries. But Saudi Arabia does not have muscle. We have muscle. Saudi
28:54Arabia has money. Turkey has influence both in Europe and Asia. It's a strong middle power. So this
29:00combination, it's a formidable combination. It's a formidable alliance. And I think that you have
29:05seen that there will be a secretariat of this trilateral countries in Mecca. There will be a
29:12trilateral or in Riyadh secretariat and an attack on one will be considered an attack on all. So I think
29:18this is a very historical agreement. And we see that countries are now refusing to accept the status quo.
29:26That status quo which was there before the war by Israel and Iran is no longer acceptable to these
29:34countries, right? So we have to look at it in that aspect. And we see that US hegemon is slowly
29:43withering away. That extraordinary level of military power has also been shattered by Iran still having
29:51very strong capabilities of retaliating to the US. Iran's military capabilities have not been annihilated,
29:58like President Trump had said after the first four days of the war on Iran. They said Iran is now
30:04a void of
30:06striking back. But Iran's military capabilities are very much there. So we see the dwindling of US hard
30:12power. We see the dwindling of US influence of that level. Of course, US is a very key stakeholder.
30:20But now these countries are making a proactive mechanism to deal with the situation. And I think
30:28it's about time. It's about time.
30:30Well, obviously, we see a great reshuffle of the power synergies and current situation in the Middle
30:36East. We see UAE. They had Israeli IDF soldiers on their land operating missile so-called defense systems.
30:44And we see Omani is working with the Iranians talking to whether to open the Hormuz or not,
30:52and Saudi Arabia trying to ship their oil through Red Sea. So everything is changing very fast.
30:58So right now we heard from Egyptians, and they say possibly Egypt will think about joining the Mecca
31:05defense agreement later. So from your perspective to anticipating other countries, regional countries,
31:12or maybe not that regional countries, potentially, to join and form a broader alliance with Pakistan,
31:20Saudi or Turkey. Or some countries you might think they will not join the agreement for sure. What are
31:28some of these countries? I think that, okay, very good. The last part is a very tricky one. Which
31:33countries will for sure not join it? Very good question. I think that UAE will for sure not join this,
31:40right? This because, of course, we have a very close association with Israel. But I think that we
31:47should also understand this is not a country club that anyone can join. You have to be aligned with
31:52the values of this, of this, this trilateral framework of we have to be have the similar national
31:59security interests as these three countries. And you have to have similar vision of security as these
32:05three countries. So that is very important. I think Egypt can be a good candidate. I think
32:11Qatar is on the fence, because it has a lot of pressure from Israel also. It slightly has a
32:18relationship with Israel. Saudi Arabia has taken a very clear and strong position under the leadership
32:23of Mr. Mohammed bin Salman. I think it's a very good position. I think Erdogan is very clear on this
32:29as well.
32:29So I think Egypt can be a potential candidate. But I think all other countries will have to be,
32:36their inclusion will have to be discussed mutually by the three core committee, core group members
32:42for any other entrant. But I think one country which will for sure will not join is the United Arab
32:48Emirates.
32:50Okay, okay. So I was talking with Hardware editors, and they say the current coming Israel general election,
33:00they are counting on the opposition party to fight, fight off Netanyahu and sending him to the jail.
33:07So with the changing world, we see the military alliance, but we know without changing of economic
33:13structure and future sustainable development policies changing, we're not going to enter a better
33:19world than now, you know. So with Chinese, we think we're anticipating bringing more countries
33:26sustainable development policies and techniques sharing, and the talent can move freely from one
33:32country to another, going to make our world a better place. That's why we have BREE initiative,
33:37and we're calling for a shared future for humankind. For that purpose, and on the base of current
33:44agreement, do you see any possibility for expansion of this military agreement to economic and maybe
33:51industrial agreement or development policy sharing with other countries? That is a brilliant question.
33:57That's a brilliant question. Wow. I think that's an excellent area. Actually, we should discuss more
34:02about this. I never even thought of this one, to be very honest with you. You see, if you look
34:06at
34:06the Belt and Road, and after the COVID-19 pandemic, the first country which President Xi Jinping visited
34:15after the COVID-19 pandemic was Saudi Arabia. Do you know that? The first country that President Xi
34:23paid a visit to, and that is very, very symbolic. Saudi Arabia and China signed a very important deal
34:28when President Xi visited. Because before there was an agreement of Saudi Arabia with the US for oil
34:34for security. Then the US said, we will no longer buy your oil, and we will also not guarantee your
34:41security. So President Xi said, we will get your oil. So Saudi Arabia is a very key country for China,
34:48and for China's oil security, for energy security. And in the GCC, the principal partner of China
34:55is the Saudi Arabia. And in South Asia, the principal partner of China is Pakistan.
35:02So this can be a very interesting industrial cooperation mechanism, in my opinion. Very, very interesting.
35:13And Turkey, of course, is also a friend of China. So we can, it can be a very, very interesting
35:19economic
35:19block that can be formed. And I think it would be a very big benefit for all the countries, particularly
35:25Pakistan. You see, this genocide in Gaza is unforgivable. And no human being, it's not about
35:32Muslim, no human being with a conscience can accept what's happening in Gaza. No human being with a
35:39conscience. And I commend the people in China, the Chinese great people of China, that they have
35:47publicly criticized, and the government of China has criticized and condemned Israel's genocide in
35:53West Bank in Gaza, because China has taken a position of principle, based on principle.
35:58Well, we've been doing that since Chairman Mao. So that's for record. That's for sure.
36:03Many people are appreciating the huge
36:07work done by Pakistan and contribution to stability, sustainable development in Middle East.
36:13But many people are saying we need to have long-time, secured relationships,
36:17building on the current short-time diplomatic endeavor. So from a Pakistani perspective,
36:23what is a sustainable security model, an economic cooperation model, and maybe future
36:30foreign diplomatic relation model? Maybe just imagine, what is the best model to have in Middle East to
36:37replace the current chaotic world, if America really, passively or proactively, they're retreating from
36:44Middle East. This is very important. I think Pakistan has the grit, the wherewithal to underwrite the
36:52security of the Middle East through its military. But Pakistan needs export-led growth. We need Saudi
36:58Arabia and other countries who are friends of Pakistan to invest in our industrial cooperation,
37:02industrial zones, set up factories. So we have more export-led growth, and we have foreign exchange.
37:08This is what we need. We have the military. We are a nuclear power. We can underwrite the security of
37:14the whole Middle East. Even, you know, in Qatar, the FIFA was held in Qatar, the security of the whole
37:20football match on maritime and on land was provided by the military, Pakistan military. So we can underwrite
37:27the national security of the Middle East with our friends. But we need our friends to invest economically.
37:33I think this can change the whole region, the GCC and Pakistan. And it can enable Pakistan and these
37:40countries, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, to be the most important middle powers in the GCC and Asia,
37:46if we are able to do this. And of course, China is a very key long-term strategic partner. And
37:53I think
37:54China will support this initiative as well. And these countries can join the EDAI ELU,
37:58as well as the Global Development Initiative, GDI.
38:10Bringing back to the topic that we were covering before, in your research, you talked about how
38:16performance, performative art, could really facilitate the exchange between different racial
38:23groups, different nationality. To me, what I find appealing is not only that, you also move beyond
38:34class divisions, right? In the 1950s and 60s to China, we really emphasized that the ethnic, the
38:43national division is there. But the class combination, the class commonality is something that could bring
38:53the Chinese working class, Chinese suffering, closer to the Global South's struggle.
38:59Mm-hmm. Definitely. Yeah. And I think part of the reason that I'm interested in the Global South is
39:06because it presents this interesting intersection of class and racial issues around decolonization and
39:12anti-imperialism, and then viewing anti-imperialism also through the lens of anti-capitalist political
39:20action. And so I think my understanding of the intellectual trajectory of third-worldist
39:26kind of continental thought is that it's really actively thinking about this intersection while
39:32also, like you said, not simplifying it to say, okay, this is just a class issue. Yeah. But to say
39:37that it is inherently in part an economic issue, an issue of economic inequality, and that economic
39:44inequality is linked to the racial inequality, racism, and then also the cultural hierarchies. And so
39:51I think, you know, one of the things I emphasized in the lecture today was that I view China's socialist
39:56revolution also as a decolonizing project. And I think that's something that hasn't been talked about
40:02enough in the English language scholarship about Chinese socialist culture. And so thinking about
40:07the assertion of local aesthetics as a political act, there's a tendency to see like folk forms, specifically
40:15folk dance, only through the lens of nationalism. And I think it's actually also an internationalist project
40:20in the sense that it's decolonial. And that's something that's of, you know, political importance
40:27to people of color around the world because of the history of colonialism. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's
40:33something that I emphasize in my work that's also true in China. And I think the theorization of it in
40:38relation to race specifically is something that's not as common within the Chinese context, but it does
40:44become an important part of the discourse of, you know, you know, Chinese revolutionary, global
40:50revolutionary thought. Yeah. In a way, I agree. And the power of class discourse in combination with all
40:57various formats of discrimination and inequality really has the ability to penetrate the stereotype that sets
41:06people apart. You mentioned that the racial discourse, that the racial inequality is important
41:12in the global south. But also in your work, you demonstrate that the racial inequality penetrates
41:18into the United States as well. Like the global north is not an inherently concrete part. It has its own
41:26inequality. It has its own problems that can resonate with the global south discourse of liberation.
41:33Exactly. This is very important. Exactly. Yeah. And I think I think that's also why,
41:37at least in the English language scholarship, there's been a tendency to not emphasize the
41:43decolonizing aspect of socialism is because it was precisely racism in the United States that the
41:50socialist world actually highlighted in a lot of their critical reporting on the United States that
41:56was an important part of how they, you know, galvanized, I think, support for leftist movements is
42:01precisely as you said, pointing out that these places also were places of extreme inequality and racism.
42:09But of course, at the time, the United States discourse didn't emphasize that part of the
42:16critique for their own reasons. And so I think people weren't as aware of it.
42:20Yeah. And in fact, those anti-imperialist and with a socialist inclination and anti-imperialist
42:29element of racial discourse is very important throughout the history of the global south solidarity
42:36movement. You have on the American side, the Black Panther support. You have on the South African side,
42:43the anti-apetite movement, all sorts of movements, real political movement that connects the broader
42:51world together. Exactly. This is the part that we really need to emphasize through today's rhetoric
42:57of global south discussion. It's not necessarily emphasizing that we want to form a new block called
43:05the global south. No, it's the long historical trajectory of anti-hierarchical, anti-hegemonic
43:13and anti-imperialist discourse joining together and penetrating to today's.
43:18Exactly. Yeah. And it's interesting you mentioned those two specific issues because two of the dance
43:22works that were really prominent that I'm looking at, one was about anti-apartheid and one was,
43:28that was actually a Soviet dance drama about anti-apartheid politics that came to China. But then also,
43:34I'll be talking today about a Chinese dance drama about the Black liberation struggle in the United
43:38States. Which one? Specifically, 怒火在燃燒 from 1964. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's a very vivid
43:45portrayal of racism in the United States. And it's a very explicit support for the Black struggle.
43:55Yeah. And it's not necessarily isolating the Black struggle from a bigger context. It's bringing forward
44:03the importance of Black struggle in the specific condition and that this is the most prominent,
44:10most frontier type of struggle, but it is within the bigger struggle of the world. Exactly. This is
44:18quite important. I guess this brings to the theme of this year's summer school. We really want to bring
44:25forward the notion of non-hagemonic world order. We also want to bring forward the notion of communitas
44:32and commonalities. Although we're different, but all those differences among us do not necessarily
44:41separate us, but it actually brings us closer because of common shared goal. So it brings to the
44:47final sort of ambition for this year's, not only this year's summer school, but we started an initiative
44:54called Shared Development Agenda with the hope that the 2030 human development goal is approaching,
45:04is quickly approaching what the world would look like beyond 2030. What kind of a development do we
45:10aspire to and what sort of historical and contemporary lessons that we can draw from each other. And it's not
45:18only just about economic development, it's about a comprehensive holistic social development. And I think
45:24what you're doing in the 1950s and 60s performative art has a quite strong importance in the whole discussion.
45:33What would you, I mean, if there is a request asking you to connect your study of the 50s and
45:4360s to
45:44today's world, what sort of lessons do you think you can bring forward to the discussions of the
45:49nowadays world order? Definitely. I think one of the biggest lessons that I see in the Chinese reception
45:56of these international performing arts troops from the global south is a very serious attitude of
46:07humility and an attitude of genuine wanting to learn about other people. And I think that's an
46:15important foundation for any kind of non-hegemonic world order. And I think it sounds obvious, but I
46:26think it's hard to admit when you don't know something. And it's also hard to challenge preconceived
46:31notions. And I think that one of the things that I find most inspiring is that there was a real
46:36effort
46:37to try to learn about other cultures and not just take for granted that you already see what you expect
46:43to see, but to be surprised. And then also to take the difficult step of actually trying to learn
46:51other cultures and ways of thinking. And I think that's necessary for building solidarity. And I think
46:56it's necessary for meeting on equal terms with people of different cultural backgrounds.
47:03Yeah. I like what you're describing. It's to learn from each other. In fact, in the period that we're both
47:11interested in, the 50s and 60s, one of the leading principles for China is to say that we come here
47:18to
47:18learn, not to impose. Exactly. It's manifested in the developmental aid, in all those big projects,
47:27such as Tanzanian railway projects. And it's reflected in public cultural products as well.
47:36To learn from each other, to mutually develop from each other, not to create sameness, I think is quite
47:45crucial. Yeah. So it's a dialogue and sort of both sides contributing something different will create
47:51something new that both sides can then participate in, right? Yeah. I think that's the fundamental goal.
47:56Yeah, absolutely. And it's not only applying to South South Corporation, it's applying to sort of,
48:03I mean, I find our conversation as mutually inspiring. Yeah, exactly. Today's
48:10like world, I'm still going to bring back to today's world. In your idea, South North conversation,
48:18how should it pan out? How should it work in today's context?
48:23And like, as you said in our previous conversation, a lot of the institutions that currently
48:29shape global interactions are fundamentally hegemonic in the sense that they center the global North,
48:36and they also are founded on a lot of, you know, intellectual concepts that derive from the global
48:43North. And they also benefit the global North inherently through their structures and principles.
48:48A certain group of people in the North. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Like going back to what we were
48:52talking about, the global North itself is not homogeneous. And so, yeah, exactly. It's benefiting a
48:57certain group within the global North. And so I think there needs to be a fundamental restructuring of
49:02those institutions and recognition that those institutions are problematic and can't be the
49:09basis for a truly equal or non-hegemonic future. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges,
49:16because that requires those relatively minority communities within the global North and the global
49:23South who benefit from those structures to relinquish their privilege. And so it's difficult.
49:29Oh, I'm still going to press on that difficult, difficult issue. Yeah.
49:34But what do you see, considering the existing hegemonic structure that the global North,
49:40a certain group of people in the North benefits from, we will have to work with the constraints,
49:46existing constraints, right? What are the methods to facilitate in your idea, to facilitate
49:53people-to-people exchange, like the way that the period that you studied it in? How to facilitate
49:59today's people's people exchange? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so if we're talking about, you know, China, US...
50:07Or China and the world, US and the rest of the world, right?
50:10I mean, I do believe it's very important to have people come physically to China and vice versa,
50:16to have Chinese people go to other parts of the world. I think that even with our highly technologically
50:20connected environment, those kind of interactions and even media representations really can't take
50:26the place of actual being there. And so I think, you know, that's why I really advocate study abroad.
50:34You know, I have directed our study abroad program at our university, because I think it is extremely
50:40important. And it opens up those attitudes in a way that other types of communication can't. So I think
50:48that that face-to-face interaction and personal kind of experience is really, really important.
50:55Oh, I would definitely take the advantage of what you're saying. This is a wonderful initiative.
51:02Like, come over and study abroad and take a look at the food. And if you're too terrified to take
51:08up
51:08a full degree program, try the summer school first. Exactly. Oh my god, and now there's so many
51:14opportunities to study in China. And the scholarships are amazing. And so if people are interested at all,
51:19I mean, I think there's so many pathways now. And I do believe even with the help of technological
51:25advancement, people-to-people exchange needs to be embodied in a physical sort of coming, by coming
51:32over here. I mean, speaking of coming over here, what brings you to China? Like, what is your experience of
51:39China so far? I mean, I first came to China in 2002. Oh, yeah. So it's been 24 years that
51:48I've been
51:48coming to China. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. So I mean, coming because I mean, you're coming from a
51:55non-Chinese perspective. What has changed and what hasn't changed over the past 24 years to you?
52:02I feel like not that much has changed. Like, yeah, mostly what's changed. It's like, okay,
52:06now we used to pay before, you know, before we get cash. Like, you know, I actually paid for my
52:12tuition at Beijing Dance Academy in cash, which is like, funny. Oh, so I mean, it's stuff like that
52:19that has changed, you know, the surface level kind of technology, right? The landscape has changed.
52:27There's more subway lines in Beijing. Every time I come, there's more subway lines. Everything
52:32gets more and more convenient. Yeah. But the experience, I feel like, fundamentally hasn't
52:40changed that much in terms of how I interact with people and how people's, you know, willingness to
52:45be in conversation has consistently, I've always had a very positive experience. Do you think you
52:51benefit from being able to speak Chinese? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. One of the
52:57worst parts about COVID for me was not being able to come to China. Oh, I'm sorry. But yeah,
53:04it's different. And I was grateful at the end of COVID, I could still speak Chinese. I was scared.
53:08Oh, really? Yeah, I did a lot of online activities. Did you lose it? Did you lose it? No. Okay.
53:13I mean,
53:13speaking from a personal perspective, right? How do you facilitate your living in China? How do you
53:21communicate with people? What kind of activities you go to? And how do you find them? Yeah. I mean,
53:27so I have a really big network of friends. How do you establish such a network? So when I first
53:33started coming, I was studying Chinese. Right. And so I had my teachers, my classmates, and then I made,
53:38I was dancing. So I've met people, a lot of, I met a lot of friends through dancing. Oh, so
53:42dancing is
53:43very important. I think I always advise my students to have hobbies when they study abroad. So, and
53:50actually, when I brought students from William and Mary two years ago, I matched them up with
53:55Chinese students to be language partners. You dictate. I mean, we collaborated. Really?
54:00Wow. There was another teacher who was running an English program that summer, and she asked if we
54:04could collaborate. And I said, this is one of the ways we could collaborate is we can have them be
54:08language partners. Because I remember when I was a student studying Chinese, they had a couple
54:13opportunities where they brought in some Chinese graduate students who wanted to meet us. And then
54:17those became lifelong friends. So I think every individual personal connection, you know,
54:23is important. And so, yeah, I just kind of met more and more people, maintained those contacts.
54:29And then, you know, while I'm in the US, I check my WeChat. Whenever people ask me to do something,
54:34can you write a letter of recommendation? Can you participate in this conference? Like I,
54:37as much as possible, I always try to say yes. Because for me, it's a way of keeping those relationships
54:42active and continuing to learn from each other and continuing to for me to just be a part of this
54:47community. So I've definitely seen myself as part of the academic community in China. And in the same
54:54way that I would make sure to always respond to an email from a colleague in the US, I would
54:58always
54:58respond to an email from a colleague in China or Wei Xin or whatever, just because I think that for
55:03me,
55:03it's really important. Yeah. I think you bring forward a very another key issues we we try to cover
55:11in this year's summer school. It's community. The community is not something that is built from top
55:17down. Communities or that's why we use the word coming into us. It's like we have to share a common
55:23goal and that common goal couldn't be descended from somewhere. It needs to be naturally growing
55:31from the human to human interaction, the true interaction. You have to participate, you have to
55:36engage with with each other so that you could work together towards a common task. Exactly. And that is
55:44true to I think the first topic that we covered in today's conversation. The experience that China had in
55:53the 70s of going to Africa was not only just about giving you money to build something, it's about
56:01building a railway together with you. We eat together, we live together, we work together,
56:08and we suffer together. And we solve one problem together. And I guess this is something that requires
56:16not only academic study, but real practices today. Exactly.
56:20And that's why I honestly find a lot of writings by Mao inspiring because he talks about the importance
56:28of physical practice as a political practice and as a way of forming these social solidarities. And I
56:36think that it's true. And I think like you said, when you labor together, you eat together,
56:42suffer together, that actually builds solidarity through practice.
56:46Yeah. And then goes back to the title of your talk in the summer school,
56:50Embody. I mean, practice really, I think it embodies a perfect word that embodies the meaning of practice.
56:59You would have to physically get involved. There is a Chinese saying called
57:05, right? So like you would have to bow and humble yourself so that you join the practice.
57:12Exactly. Without doing that, you won't be able to understand the thing. Exactly. Yeah. So like in the
57:17reports about the collaborative learning that took place in the 1950s, they talk about like
57:24sweating. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's like a very embodied thing. And it's part of when you labor
57:29together, there's like embarrassing things that happen. But that's part of what brings you closer.
57:34Exactly. It's not only just the 50s. In the base camp period, people talked about the importance of,
57:42let's say, going to a person's house and eating together. It's not just about showing your
57:50willingness to dine together with them, but also for the person who goes into that household,
57:56you smell the smell, you see the feeling, you see the environment. So that's when you can truly,
58:04as someone like intellectuals, as someone from outside world, you can truly understand the common
58:09suffering and the problems that they were facing. Yeah. So that you could think like them, so you
58:13could work together with them. And many of the communist writings in the in the in the 30s and 40s,
58:19they talk about learning. Exactly what you said, learning is a mutual process. How do we learn? It's not
58:25only just about textbook in a classroom. Learning is about embodying your practices.
58:38And this was another episode of China Now, a show that opens a window to the present
58:43and future of the Asian giant. Hope you enjoy it. See you next time.
59:01Bye.
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