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00:10Hello, Telesory English presents a new episode of China Now, a web media's production that
00:15showcases the culture, technology, and politics of the Asian giant. In this first segment,
00:20China Currents take a deep dive into the week's top stories. From Japanese Defense Minister Shinjiro
00:26Koizumi wants nuclear policy discussed without taboos, to the United States Senate voting 86-11
00:33to pass the Lindsay O'Graham sanctions on Russia and Iran as an act of 2026. Let's see.
00:47White doves rise above Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park. The piecemeal sounds. People lower their heads.
00:55Across the river stands the atomic bomb dome, preserved exactly, because the world is not
01:02supposed to forget what happened there. Prime Minister Sane Takeichi steps to the microphone.
01:07She promises peace. Then, when pressed about Japan's three non-nuclear principles, she says Japan is
01:13upholding them. But unlike recent prime ministers who pledged to maintain the principles going forward,
01:19Takichi limited her remarks to a description of present policy, leaving future commitments ambiguous.
01:25Hiroshima must be remembered. But Hiroshima is not the whole history of Japan's war.
01:31A state that remembers only how the war ended can avoid confronting how it began
01:37and what it did to others before the bomb failed. Japan will not possess nuclear weapons.
01:43It will not produce them. It will not allow them into Japanese territory. But that last promise is now
01:50under attack. Defense Minister Shinjiro Kuzumi wants nuclear policy discussed without taboos.
01:57Takeichi has called the ban on bringing in American nuclear weapons unrealistic. Her coalition partner,
02:04the right-wing Japan Innovation Party, says it is open to revision. The immediate proposal is not a
02:10Japanese bomb. It is allowing American nuclear weapons into Japanese ports, bases, and waters.
02:17This is not an indictment of Japan. The strongest resistance comes from Japanese atomic bomb survivors,
02:24peace activists, and voters. The target is the nationalist governing project that wants
02:30to inherit the moral authority of pacifist Japan while dismantling the restraints that make that
02:36reputation possible. The government says Japan faces its most dangerous security environment since 1945.
02:43Chinese missiles, North Korean nuclear weapons, Russia, and an unpredictable United States.
02:49The weapons are real, but a security environment is not weathered. It is produced by alliances,
02:56deployments, and political choices. Japan has direct disputes with its neighbors, but treating every
03:02Chinese military development as an existential Japanese threat depends on a larger choice. Defining
03:08American primacy as Japan's national interest, treating a war over Taiwan as potentially Japan's war,
03:15and offering Japanese territory as the forward base for that confrontation. This is not geography,
03:22it is strategy. If Washington is unreliable, hosting Washington's nuclear weapons would not
03:27make Japan independent. It would bind Japan more tightly to American war planning and make Japanese
03:34cities more valuable targets. The alliance would generate new dangers, then cite those dangers as
03:41reason for further militarization. When Chinese or Korean people object, they are often accused of having
03:47a victim complex, of refusing to release events from 80 years ago. But history is not a suitcase victims
03:55have stubbornly refused to put down. Japan's neighbors have repeatedly moved forward. In 1972, China
04:02normalized relations and renounced its demand for war reparations in the interest of friendship. In 1998,
04:09South Korean President Kim Dae-jong accepted Prime Minister Keizu Obuchi's apology for colonial rule and pursued
04:16a future-oriented partnership. Apologizing and compensating victims are not acts of generosity. They are the
04:24minimum expected of a perpetrator. Yet Asian governments repeatedly chose reconciliation. What damages it
04:31is a Japanese nationalist right treating every acknowledgement as temporary. Honoring war criminals
04:38at Yasukuni, minimizing forced labor and military sexual slavery, softening the language of invasion,
04:45and accepting earlier apologies abroad while undermining them at home. You cannot demand that victims
04:51treat an apology as final while treating the apology itself as provisional. Reconciliation is a bargain.
04:58The victims agree that the future will not remain imprisoned by the past. The former aggressor
05:03agrees not to rehabilitate that past. Then comes the second defense. Whatever Imperial Japan did,
05:11post-war Japan has been democratic and peaceful. Japan did build a durable democracy. Its people created
05:18powerful anti-war movements. Hibakusha made nuclear abolition a moral cause. Ordinary Japanese citizens
05:24often resisted militarization and carried memories their politicians preferred to blur. They deserved credit.
05:32Japan's governing establishment does not deserve the same uncomplicated praise. Japanese demilitarization was
05:38not simply a voluntary moral awakening. Japan accepted the past-term surrender terms. The allied
05:44occupation dismantled its armed forces and removed militarists from office. Article 9 then placed
05:51the renunciation of war inside Japan's constitution. These restraints followed invasion, colonial rule,
05:59and atrocities across Asia. There were consequences of what the Japanese state had done, not gifts later
06:07politicians bestowed on the world. Nor was post-war Japan entirely detached from war. Japanese troops
06:13did not fight in Korea or Vietnam, but Japan became a principal supply base for the Korean War. And American
06:21bases in Japan were crucial to the war in Vietnam. Japan could be a peaceful society and American military
06:27platform at the same time. Politicians who accepted that arrangement should not be credited with independent
06:33peacemaking. They kept Japanese troops out of combat while making Japanese territory available to American wars.
06:42Then, Washington's Cold War priorities preserved the political forces that demilitarization was supposed
06:47to remove. As fear of communism replaced fear of renewed Japanese militarism, the American occupation
06:53reserved course. Wartime elites returned. The United States cultivated and covertly supported conservative
07:00politics. Nabutsuki Kishi had served in Hideki Tojo's wartime cabinet and was detained as a suspect
07:07class A war criminal. He was released without trial, helped built the LDP, the current ruling party, became
07:15prime minister, and entrenched the American security alliance despite enormous Japanese protests. This is
07:21not hereditary guilt. It is political continuity. Kishi's grandson, Shinzo Abe, accelerated the removal of
07:29post-war military restraints. Takeuchi is Abe's political heir. Since 2015, Japan has authorized
07:36collective self-defense, acquired long-range counter-strike weapons, raised military spending, and removed
07:42major restrictions on lethal arms exports. Now, nuclear weapons are to be discussed without taboos.
07:50Each step is called defensive. Together, they form a direction. 76% of Japanese respondents support
07:58maintaining all three non-nuclear principles. 77% oppose nuclear sharing. The real struggle
08:05is not Japan against its neighbors. It is between ordinary Japanese people who defended peace
08:11and a nationalist establishment using their peaceful record to justify remilitarization.
08:17Japan's neighbors are not obliged to forget history precisely when that establishment is removing the
08:24restraints created by history. And Hiroshima, the place preserved so humanity cannot forget,
08:30must not become the backdrop of making nuclear weapons normal again.
08:35Meanwhile, in Washington, a different kind of pressure was building. On August 7th, the United States
08:41Senate voted 86 to 11 to pass the Lindsey Graham sanctions on Russia and Iran Act of 2026.
08:48The most talked about part of the bill would authorize the president to impose tariffs of up to 100%
08:53on major importers of Russian oil and natural gas. China, India, Japan, and some European countries
08:59could all end up on that list. The logic from Washington is pretty simple. If you keep buying Russian
09:04energy, we raise the cost of your goods entering the U.S. market. But would that actually make China buy
09:11less
09:11Russian energy? Russia is one of China's largest sources of crude oil, and China and Russia have built a
09:17long-term energy relationship that includes oil pipelines. The East Serbia-Pacific Ocean pipeline and the
09:24China-Russia oil pipeline allow Russian crude to flow directly into northeastern and northern China. China is the
09:30world's largest oil importer in 2025 and imported 578 million metric tons of crude oil, with more than
09:3970% of its oil coming from overseas. Most of that oil arrives by sea, and around 80% of
09:45those shipments
09:46pass through the Strait of Malacca. At its narrowest point, the waterway is just 2.7 kilometers wide,
09:53yet it carries nearly 70% of China's crude oil imports and more than half of its foreign trade cargo.
10:00The Malacca dilemma is not just a theoretical scenario. The U.S. military presence at
10:05Singapore's Changi has never gone away. Any conflict over Taiwan or in the South China Sea
10:10could put this waterway right back at the center of the strategic confrontation.
10:15That is what makes Russia different. China and Russia already have a land-based oil pipeline network
10:21with annual transport capacity of 30 million metric tons. On the natural gas side,
10:26China received 38.8 billion cubic meters through the Power of Siberia pipeline in 2025,
10:33surpassing Russian gas supplies to Europe for the first time. And with more than 4,300 kilometers of
10:40shared border, those pipelines do not have to pass through any maritime choke point.
10:44So even if Russian crude is not the cheapest option on the market, China has reasons to keep that supply.
10:51This is not just about price, it's about the route. That is why using tariffs to push China away from
10:58Russian energy is not simply a commercial decision. It touches China's broader energy security strategy,
11:03and China is not putting all its energy needs on Russia either. It imports from the Middle East,
11:09Africa, and Latin America, while also relying heavily on seaborne supplies. That is precisely where Russian
11:16energy fits in. It gives China another source that could complement the rest of its supply network.
11:21A 100% tariff would obviously come with the cost. China still exports more than 500 billion dollar
11:28worth of goods to the United States every year, and the American market still matters. But energy purchases
11:34and exports to the US are two different calculations. If China reduced its Russian energy imports just to
11:40reduce the risk of US tariffs, it could end up paying more for transportation, relying more heavily
11:45on sea routes, and take on greater energy security risks. That may not be a very attractive tradeoff.
11:51So the challenge for this bill is not really whether the US can make China stop buying Russian oil,
11:58it is whether Washington can make China pay a high enough price for continuing to buy it.
12:03And that is another change worth watching. Western financial sanctions have also changed the way
12:08China and Russia settle energy transactions. As Russia came under increasing financial sanctions,
12:13more energy trade with China shifted toward local currencies such as the yuan and the ruble.
12:18That means the main channel through which the US can pressure China is increasingly the US market
12:24itself rather than the China-Russia energy trade. So the grand bill is really dealing with two systems
12:30that are connected, but not quite the same. On one side is the enormous trade relationship between China
12:36and the US. On the other is an increasingly mature energy relationship between China and Russia.
12:42The US can raise the cost of the first, but making China change the second is a much harder task.
12:48It's not just energy where US-China ties are shifting. Chevrolet is leaving China. On August 6,
12:54General Motors announced that Chevrolet would gradually stop selling new vehicles in the Chinese market.
12:59A brand that was once a household name in China has reached the end of the road.
13:04But just one day earlier, GM had made a very different decision. On August 5, SAIC,
13:10Motor and General Motors extended their joint venture agreement by another 20 years through 2047.
13:16By 2030, SAIC GM plans to launch at least 30 new energy models and put more resources into Bilk and
13:25Cadillac.
13:25So why was Chevrolet the first to go? In 2014, Chevrolet sold 767,000 vehicles in China.
13:33Sale, cruise, malleable, one hit after another. Chevrolet was once one of the biggest mainstream joint
13:39venture brands in the Chinese market. Then things started to change. Around 2018,
13:44Chevrolet pushed a three-cylinder engine strategy across much of its lineup. The market did not
13:50respond well. At the same time, Bilk kept moving down into lower price segments, creating more
13:56competition from within the very same joint venture and squeezing Chevrolet's room to maneuver.
14:01Then came the bigger changes. Chinese brands started moving up market. New energy vehicles took off,
14:07and Chevrolet failed to find a new position in the market quickly enough. Sales fell from more than
14:13400,000 vehicles in 2019 to just a few thousand in 2025. This year, Chevrolet has barely registered in
14:21the Chinese market. And this is not just a story about one brand. It reflects a much bigger shift
14:26facing traditional joint venture automakers in China. During the gasoline car era, competition was
14:32largely about engines, transmissions, chassis, brands, and dealer networks. But the rise of electric and
14:38intelligent vehicles have changed the game. Batteries, electric drivetrains, smart cockpits,
14:45driver assistance systems, and vehicle software are now becoming major parts of the car's competitiveness.
14:50At the very same price point, Chinese brands can offer consumers more features, faster product updates,
14:56and a more intelligent driving experience. And China has built a highly developed industrial and supply
15:02chain ecosystem around these technologies. That creates a new problem for the old joint venture
15:08model. Foreign automakers provided mature models and technology. Chinese partners handled manufacturing
15:13and sales. That model worked well in the gasoline car era. But in the new energy market, products are
15:20evolving much faster. If core technologies and product decisions still depend heavily on overseas
15:25headquarters, joint ventures can struggle to keep up with the Chinese market. That is part of the
15:31Chevrolet problem. It did not lack a global brand, and it did not lack manufacturing capacities. What it
15:37lacked was a product and decision-making model that could keep pace with today's Chinese market. But GM is
15:44not leaving China. Quite the opposite, it is redefining what China means to the company. In the past, China was
15:50primarily a market where GM sold cars. Now, China is becoming a development and manufacturing base as well.
15:58Cyc-GM has said it plans to expand into overseas markets, including the Middle East, Africa, South
16:03America, Mexico, and the Asia-Pacific region. In October, Bilk's first premium new energy model
16:09developed in China will also begin exports. That is a pretty big change. It used to be global cars came
16:16to
16:16China. Now, we're seeing another model developed in China, made in China, sold around the world. And that
16:24helps explain why GM is willing to keep its partnership with Cyc going until 2047. It's giving up a brand
16:30that has lost its competitiveness in China. But it is keeping China's supply chain, manufacturing
16:36capabilities, R&D teams, and access to the world's largest auto market. Chinese companies' experience in
16:42batteries, electric drivetrains, and intelligent vehicles is also becoming something global automakers
16:48need to tap into. And Cyc-GM's new direction is pretty clear. More local R&D, more local product
16:55decisions, combined with GM's global resources, to take vehicles developed in China to overseas market.
17:01China's role as the sales market may be shrinking for some foreign brands,
17:05but its role as a place to develop and build cars is growing. From that perspective, Chevrolet's exit is
17:12not GM saying goodbye to the Chinese auto market. It looks more like GM's making a new bet on China.
17:18And China's role in the global economy is not only changing for automakers. On August 7th, the Chinese
17:24embassy in Cuba handed over another batch of 5,000 household solar power systems to the Cuban government.
17:30Each system includes a 3.6 kWh photovoltaic system and 14.3 kWh of energy storage.
17:39They will be prioritized for remote areas as well as institutions such as nurseries, banks, and nursing
17:45homes. Cuban President Miguel Diaz-Canel thanked China in a social media post on August 9th.
17:51Cuba is facing a serious energy crisis. After the U.S. took action against Venezuela in January,
17:57Venezuelan oil supplies to Cuba were cut off. Cuba's fuel reserves quickly ran down, its power plants are
18:04badly outdated, and its grid is extremely fragile. On August 3rd, Cuba's national power system collapsed,
18:11plunging the entire country into darkness. It was the seventh nationwide blackout in Cuba so far this
18:17year. The Chinese equipment arrived at a critical moment, but its impact is limited. At peak demand
18:23that day, Cuba faced a power shortfall of 2,280 MW. The 5,000 solar systems have a combined
18:30generation capacity of around 18 MW, enough to cover less than 0.8% of the gap. They can help
18:38provide
18:38basic emergency room in remote areas, but they cannot solve a systematic energy crisis. That is
18:44why the Cuban government has now launched a plan to build 92 solar power plants across the country
18:49with a total installed capacity of around 2,000 MW. As traditional energy supplies become increasingly
18:56unreliable, solar power is no longer just the supplementary source of electricity for Cuba.
19:01It is becoming an alternative the country has little choice but to rely on. And China is providing
19:07more than just these 5,000 systems. From solar panels to energy storage systems to larger-scale power plants,
19:15China is set to play a deeper role in another path for Cuba's energy transition.
19:19That is all for this week's China Currents. See you next time.
19:30We have a short break now, but don't go away because we'll be right back.
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20:58Welcome back to China Now.
21:00In the second segment, Roughly Chinese Podcast welcomes Ari Gottman,
21:05Master's of Arts degree candidate at Un Paz in Buenos Aires,
21:09who will address the perception of China within the Global South
21:12as an exchange student at Fidan University,
21:15and also will delve in how Chinese culture and society is perceived by foreigners.
21:20Let's have a look.
21:25If you come to China and just come to Shanghai,
21:28you have no idea what China is like.
21:30That kind of hypothesis is kind of racist,
21:34because it paints Chinese people, which is a common stereotype in the West.
21:39Exactly. Lack of agency, the hive mind thing.
21:41Foreigners are more likely to believe other foreigners' perceptions about China
21:45more than Chinese people.
21:47It wasn't a miracle. They worked really hard.
21:49There was political planning.
21:50There was a lot of failure, a lot of success.
21:54They use this word a lot in Nikodawan.
21:56I think it's a word that the left needs to use more. Protagonism.
21:59These people are protagonists, improving their lives,
22:02improving the quality of life of their neighbors, improving the town's life.
22:08So, what brought you to China?
22:11This time around for the Fidan University summer school program.
22:15I think more philosophically, what brought me to China,
22:19I think there's a lot of things that brought me to China.
22:21Right. Again, leave the philosophy part.
22:24More just specific.
22:25Just the Fidan. What is it?
22:26Yeah. So, it was a summer school at the School for International Studies and Public Relations.
22:33Okay.
22:34It was a two-week summer program,
22:36primarily focused on Global South research topics and engagement with China.
22:42Right.
22:42Yeah.
22:43And I thought the program was a really good opportunity to kind of like better understand
22:46how China is thinking the Global South and then also like how the Global South is thinking China.
22:50Okay. I don't want to sound like a Fidan propagandist,
22:52but what's the difference between this one?
22:55Because everybody likes to say this is a program focused on international relations.
22:58Yeah.
22:58It has a kind of particular focus on Global South.
23:00Yeah.
23:00And somehow ties China into it.
23:03Do you think this is just run-of-the-mill like regular IR program or is something different about it?
23:08No. I mean, it's definitely different.
23:09I mean, I don't know too much about what other programs are offered in China,
23:12but I can say like from other programs in other like countries.
23:16I mean, for one, I think what's really great about Fidan and this program specifically
23:20is how it like offered scholarships and like opportunities for students to come
23:23because otherwise programs like this are really inaccessible.
23:26But I think in terms of like the actual like materials, like in the class,
23:31you had different perspectives from professors from different countries
23:34from a more kind of like anti-imperialist or kind of more like grassroots perspective.
23:40Well, I don't know if that's the other thing that I thought was really great.
23:43Like most of the professors or a good amount of the professors were not like Fidan professors.
23:47Like it was invited.
23:48Like most of the professors were like invited speakers.
23:51Right.
23:51So where are they invited from?
23:53Well, we had a professor from Brazil.
23:55We had professors from the U.S.
23:58Ben Norton lives in China now, but like I think he has quite a kind of internationalist perspective of things.
24:03Wait, was he like an actual professor in the summer school?
24:06He gave a lecture.
24:06Yeah.
24:06I mean, it was just, it was, I would say it was like a lecture series more than it was
24:11like classroom time.
24:13There was obviously like time for discussion and students, like at the end,
24:17like the last couple of days, students would also present topics related to like their country.
24:21So we had like a speaker from Rwanda.
24:23We had a speaker from Russia.
24:24How did you hear about this program?
24:26Fidan's famous in China, but I don't think it's that famous in North America.
24:29I don't think I'm disrespecting anyone from Fidan.
24:31No, and in Argentina, it's like no one, I don't think anyone knows what Fidan is.
24:36There are very few people, I don't want to infantilize, but very few people.
24:39So I really wanted to come to China again this year because I came last year.
24:43And I think this year it was like, I can't just do a vacation again.
24:46It's too expensive.
24:47And so I was looking at summer programs and I saw like that someone had tweeted or like
24:51someone had posted like Ben Norton's name and I know Ben.
24:53So I reached out to Ben and I was like, is this a thing that I should do?
24:56And he was like, just sign up.
24:58Why not?
24:59I remember like having dinner with him at a Japanese restaurant in Managua, Nicaragua
25:05and him being like, is it hard to learn?
25:06And I was like, yeah, it's pretty hard, but it's fun.
25:09And I think, I don't think I influenced him.
25:11I think he already was very much looking to China, but I think like, you know, I will
25:14take credit for maybe being a, no, yeah.
25:16I think many of us, I mean, this is just to go off like why I found this, but also
25:20like,
25:20I think many people are looking for opportunities to come to China and like, don't really know
25:26like outside of just tourism, like what they can do here.
25:29And I think like programs like this at Fudan, like they offer you like an actual space to
25:34be like, okay, like I'm going to do this two week program as like an introduction
25:36into China.
25:37And then in my case, like I did take a week of vacation after, but I think it's a really
25:42good opportunity to like, actually like have intellectual discussions about the place that
25:46you're visiting before you actually just embark on like a tourism spree.
25:49So you can understand like where you are and like, not just how you can start to understand
25:54China, but also how China is thinking about you, which I think is like really interesting.
25:58Yeah.
25:59I think personally what intrigues me about China is like a, like a member of the global
26:04South and also as like an emerging country, like an emerging power, if we want to use
26:08that word is that we have to understand China, but we also have to understand how China is
26:12thinking about like us, right.
26:14As like people in the global South.
26:16And obviously like China is not hegemonic.
26:17Like there's, there's not like one viewpoint, right?
26:19Like there's many different people with like a variety of opinions, but even just like for
26:24the Fudan experience, like how are Chinese intellectuals thinking about like the global South?
26:28You don't get that perception, you don't get that information outside of China.
26:32How do you think they are thinking about the global South from the summer school?
26:35From the summer school.
26:36I think, well, I think the professor Yen and like the, the, the organizers are really thinking
26:42about like what can be done collaboratively.
26:45Like they're thinking about the global South as like partners.
26:48In a good way.
26:49Like, cause Americans can say, oh, the new cons in the American defense establishment think
26:54about the global South as partners.
26:55But by that, I'm assuming professor Yen was thinking about the people, yeah, I think the
27:00people like the, the, the more grassroots, like, I mean, so his first lecture was like,
27:03right about like the base camp experience here in China during the revolution, right.
27:08During the first years of the revolution and also prior right to the triumph.
27:11And it was really about like how people come together, like, and, and in the Chinese case,
27:16like, I think again, like people might have this perception of China when they think like,
27:19Oh, ever all Chinese people speak the same language or like, you know, the same, but it's actually
27:23really diverse and you, in building a revolutionary project with such a diverse country, you have
27:28to find things that you can like do together and like build together.
27:32And I think that's the, like the real question of the global South right now is like, what
27:37can we do together and what can we build together?
27:39And I think we know that that's not like the U S project for the global South.
27:43And we know that that's not the project of the people in, I'll just use Latin America,
27:47like the Latin American elites that work with the U S closely.
27:49Like they're not worried about the population of their country.
27:52They're worried about how they can extract profits from, from these places.
27:56And I think the program has really thinking about, okay, what can people in China
28:01like do with people in Latin America?
28:05And, and people is a very like general term.
28:07There's, you know, wealthy people, there's working class people, there's poor people.
28:10But I took a look at the pamphlet and I realized this is like overtly leftist.
28:15Do you think when you look at the pamphlet, I mean, you reach out to Ben Norton.
28:18So this is kind of a mood point, but do you think when you're looking at the pamphlet,
28:23looking at the kind of outside presentation of what this program looks like, do you think
28:27it already aligns with you, with your worldview, with what you think this program is about?
28:32And when you come to the program, do you think that's kind of validated?
28:36Or do you think that's being challenged?
28:37It's a great question.
28:39I mean, I definitely was attracted to the program because it had a more kind of left,
28:42like, you know, socialisty lens.
28:44I think a lot of the students that I talked to shared similar feelings, but I also don't
28:50think that I actually, I know most of the students in the program do not identify as
28:54like socialists or like communists.
28:56That's interesting.
28:56So why did they sign up for this particular program?
28:58Well, I think, you know, like different professors.
29:00Financial aid.
29:00No, no.
29:01But I mean, like there were students from different countries whose professors also lectured.
29:05So they were given opportunities to come.
29:07Their flights were right.
29:07Like for me, like I put the money down.
29:09Like, you know, this was like a self-funded little, you know, trip.
29:12Right.
29:13Good for you.
29:13And that's, I'll sacrifice money for that.
29:17Right.
29:17I'm probably not going to put money down for a program that's like, you know, let's talk
29:21about the World Bank for two weeks and how great the IMF is.
29:23I was surprised.
29:24One of the lecturers.
29:24Well, she was awesome.
29:25Right.
29:26I'm surprised.
29:26I was very surprised.
29:27Probably my favorite lecture.
29:29Yeah.
29:29Why was it?
29:29I'm not going to lie.
29:30I loved her lecture.
29:32I think she, she openly was like, I'm not a Marxist.
29:35Like I'm not all these things, but I'd maybe don't agree with like her view of what the
29:40World Bank really does sometimes.
29:42Like I actually, I think she has maybe a more kind of, right.
29:45She's like an insider.
29:46And I don't mean that in a negative way.
29:47She literally worked for the World Bank.
29:49So she obviously is going to have like really good things to say.
29:52Um, so she thinks this is a developmentalist institution that's ultimately for the benefit
29:55of the people of the global.
29:57For sure.
29:57I mean, that's definitely her view.
29:58And, and also like, she, she did have a lot of criticisms of the World Bank and how, how
30:02it works maybe more institutionally, like internally, like, but I don't think she had
30:07a very critical approach of like what the World Bank even means.
30:11Like why, like, why do we have, you know, what is the role of the World Bank in the world?
30:16She didn't really talk about that, but she talked about what is what I think is like
30:21the most important thing is like how to actually build projects, develop projects, see them to
30:26like, like the, find the end, and then also do like tracing and making sure those projects
30:31do what they set out to do and are successful.
30:34And can you replicate them?
30:36Can you do them other, like in other places with other types of projects?
30:39I think she talked about something that the left doesn't talk about, which is actually
30:43like, can you build a project from the grass, like from the down up, right.
30:48With probably limited resources.
30:50Right.
30:50Well, I think that's the difference about the World Bank is that the World Bank has a lot
30:53of resources.
30:54Right.
30:54But just like, what does it actually mean to like do something from start to finish and
30:59like see if it's successful and if it is replicated and if it's not like modified, which I think
31:03is also like, I think very similar to like the Chinese experience of like, you know, touching
31:07the stones as you cross them or whatever that thing is like, there was a pragmatism in her,
31:12in her lecture, which people might call me a liberal sometimes because I'm like very much
31:17a pragmatist.
31:18But like, I really appreciate when people are just like, we're going to try something
31:22and it might not have all like the hammer and sickle logos on it.
31:25And it might not be like, you know, we're singing the international before we do the project,
31:29but it will build something real and concrete and improve people's quality of life.
31:33And the people are going to be involved in the process.
31:35Right.
31:35It's not just going to be like, you know, like top down.
31:38Where do you think a good hearted, neoliberal technocrat and and a progressive left wing
31:45kind of more collaborationist person begins?
31:49Because as I'm hearing what you are describing her,
31:52I feel like there are a lot of people who were kind hearted, who genuinely believes in the mission
31:57of IMF and the World Bank, and then they go on to do things like structural adjustment in Argentina.
32:02Right.
32:03So I know this person must be different.
32:06She must touch you in some different way.
32:08Right.
32:08But if you were to say like what really in her lecture, in her world view that got to you,
32:14Right.
32:14What would it be?
32:15The first thing I would say is that the people who are doing like,
32:18pushing structural adjustment programs are not like kind hearted.
32:20And they know what they're doing.
32:22And then they know what they're doing.
32:23And I don't think she that was her role at the World Bank.
32:25Like, I don't think I think she was that that wasn't her position.
32:28I think she was much more like project focused.
32:31I don't think she was more like general, like pushing policy on countries focus.
32:35I will say, like, I think a lot of this has to do with like what who's in power in
32:40each respective
32:41country.
32:42Right.
32:42Like, I think people might think that I'm wrong to say this, and maybe I am wrong to say this.
32:46But I think if you have a like if you have a government that is actually working toward
32:51like is the priority is bettering the quality of lives of people.
32:54I want to pick up on something you said earlier, the people to people exchange and collaboration,
32:59because I think a lot of people have this kind of impression.
33:03And I admit myself, even just five years ago, I have the same impression that a lot of the progress
33:08that Chinese have made in the last maybe since 1978 is driven by the state is a very investment
33:15driven thesis.
33:16And the people's role is more just to do whatever the government says.
33:20It's good for them in the long run.
33:22And they suffer.
33:23They work.
33:24And in the in the end, they succeed.
33:26But what they have done is despise of their lack of participation, not because of it.
33:32Do you think that's a fair statement, first of all?
33:35And what do you think what your classes in the summer school have talked about this particular issue?
33:41I don't agree with that.
33:42I think it's I think that kind of like hypothesis is kind of racist because it paints like Chinese
33:50people, which is a common stereotype in the West.
33:53Exactly.
33:53Lack of agency, the hive mind thing.
33:55It's I mean, I think outside of the class, like we went to Rongjiang.
33:58Right.
33:59And I think that's like, yeah, it's a place in Guizhou.
34:02It's a place in Guizhou.
34:03Southeastern China.
34:04Exactly.
34:04Relatively poor, relatively undeveloped, but in recent years, huge infrastructure.
34:09One of the last counties to like no longer have extreme poverty, if I'm not mistaken,
34:14like it was.
34:15Yeah, I believe at least there were many counties in Guizhou that were kind of some of the last
34:20to like have poverty alleviation be really successful.
34:23Yeah.
34:24Or at least maybe started from like a worse off case and have really improved.
34:28OK, so here's the other thing that really bothers me about this.
34:30People in the party are people like these are people like these are human beings who go home
34:36to their families.
34:37Why do you think it's important for people to realize that when they're thinking about issues in China?
34:41Because also like that's the thing, like you also are just a person so you can engage with.
34:47That's the other thing, like party country in China are like not inaccessible to the average person.
34:52They are like Chinese people's cousins and siblings and parents.
34:56Like literally when you come to China and you get an Aditi, if your driver is a member of the
35:00Communist Party, the app tells you.
35:02So like like I mean, this sounds crazy.
35:04I have been driven around by a member of the Communist Party.
35:07Yeah, me too.
35:08You know what I mean?
35:08So it's like people have this thing of like it's just red scare.
35:14It's just red scare stuff.
35:15These are just people.
35:16A lot of them have very different views from one another.
35:18But ultimately, if they're doing a good job, because obviously there's anti-corruption campaigns,
35:23like not everyone's perfect, but if they're doing a good job, they're probably just like,
35:27you know, working and hanging out in their community and making sure that things are getting
35:31better for people.
35:32And that's why they people support them.
35:34That's why people want.
35:35And we saw that in Rang Diang, like the I mean,
35:38I want to save it later.
35:40Yeah.
35:40First, I want to like ask you about the two weeks before.
35:43The program.
35:44Was there anything in the summer?
35:46Because we've talked about this.
35:48You are already kind of aligned with the broader like mission statement of the summer school.
35:53But I still wonder because it's a broad spectrum of speakers, of classmates.
35:57Was there anything from either your classmates or from one of the lectures that kind of challenged
36:02what you thought before coming to China or like really vindicated your pre-existing beliefs?
36:09So my master's program is like very like it's Argentina to China political language.
36:13So I'm constantly doing China stuff like I just it's kind of most of what I read about and talk
36:19about.
36:19So I don't know if a lot of the information was necessarily like new to me.
36:22I mean, I think there was like a lot of details that were really nice.
36:25I believe the professor's name was Emily Wilcox.
36:27She gave a really great lecture like like Asia Africa solidarity through dance and also Asia
36:32Latin America solidarity through dance.
36:34And I think like those kinds of like her lecture was really great.
36:37And there were a couple other speakers.
36:39And just I'm curious.
36:41Yeah, what's her argument on why we should care about like because I correct me if I'm wrong,
36:48but I think her focus was on like Cold War era.
36:52Yes.
36:52Like people to people like cultural exchange between China and global south.
36:56I mean, yeah, like indigenous communities say in North America.
37:01I don't know how much of that there was.
37:03I definitely think there was some exchange.
37:04I mean, her presentation was mainly like Colombia, Mexico, and then Africa as well.
37:10But interesting.
37:11But and like, you know, after like Afro indigenous people in Colombia, like that definitely was
37:15represented.
37:16I think I don't know if she would say this is her main thesis, but what I really took from
37:20it was
37:20that like when you and this is like a I think a focus of a lot of the program, at
37:25least for me,
37:26when you divorce post opening up and reform from pre opening up and reform China, you don't
37:31understand China.
37:33You have to actually look at like what China was doing and how it was engaging in the with the
37:38world,
37:39like post 48 until 79 and and post 79 and not say like they're different governments.
37:47They're different.
37:47No, it's the same like party.
37:50There were changes.
37:51There were changes in direction.
37:53But the same elements, the same like thinking that led to these kinds of exchanges, you know,
38:00pre 79, which, of course, continue just at different scales and in different ways,
38:04are still alive in China today.
38:05Like those elements are still here.
38:07And you see it like when you one of my favorite things to do is sit my friends down
38:10and make them watch the Chinese New Year celebration.
38:12I think two years ago there was like a Peruvian singer and a Peruvian dance group.
38:17So these things are still happening.
38:19And I think that was like maybe a little bit missing from her lecture.
38:21Like these kinds of exchanges are still happening on different scales because the world is different.
38:25You have TV now.
38:27You don't need to like just go to a local theater and do it.
38:29No, you can put this on television for the world to see.
38:32Right.
38:32It's true that pre 79, these expressions were much more like solidarity based,
38:38at least more openly solidarity based and had a more political orientation,
38:43more anti imperialist, more pro revolution.
38:46But that's not the world that we're living in right now.
38:49Like we are living in a different world.
38:51And it's not just because China's changes because the world has changed.
38:53So for me, I really took from her presentation is like the language and the rhetoric is very
38:58different.
38:59It's true.
39:00But if we look at what kind of exchange is taking place in China today with these same
39:05partners, Colombia, Mexico, countries in Africa, other countries in Latin America,
39:09these things are still happening.
39:11How do we take advantage of those exchanges if we ourselves are ideologically, politically
39:17motivated people take advantage or create opportunities for further exchange that might
39:22have more of our political, you know, tinge to it?
39:24Because the reality is like if the neoliberals are in power in Latin America, China's going to be
39:29working with the neoliberals.
39:31What they're going to, they're not going to, you know, hang out with some like fringe group on the
39:34left.
39:35No, they're states to state relations.
39:38Things might have looked a little bit different pre-79, but that's because also China was kind
39:42of on the outs of the world system in that moment.
39:45People didn't even recognize the PRC as the, as the legitimate country.
39:49Right.
39:50So it's just a different time, but the opportunities are still there.
39:55It's just up to us to like really take advantage of them.
39:57In my opinion, from my perception of being here, the block, the stop gap is not China.
40:03It's actually like the rest of the world.
40:06You know, China is not, especially right now, like especially I think in the last couple of
40:11years, China's really opening its doors, like really opening its doors.
40:16It's up to us to take advantage of that.
40:18Yeah.
40:19If we don't, it's, I'm not, I can't point at China and say like, oh, you guys aren't,
40:22you know, comrades enough.
40:24I mean, like what, you know what I mean?
40:25Right, right, right.
40:26Yeah.
40:26What does that even mean?
40:27Yeah.
40:28Speaking of comrades.
40:29Yeah.
40:29Your classmates.
40:30Yes.
40:30I heard someone else saying that there's a kind of a very wide range of what kind of
40:37people would sign up to this program.
40:39And you mentioned that a lot of people who signed up for this wasn't really ideologically
40:43aligned, at least initially.
40:45I'm assuming some of them remained not aligned even after the program ended.
40:50So talk about like what the classmates kind of dynamic look like.
40:53Do you talk to them?
40:53Yeah.
40:54How much you collaborate in the project?
40:55Like what surprised you about who you're studying with?
40:58Well, one thing that was really cool for me was like talking to Chinese.
41:03So like half of, about half of the student body was like Chinese students.
41:06Right.
41:07And I'm going to be so honest, like I've never engaged with like Chinese students,
41:11like from China, like full, like, like, not like I had, I have friends who were raised
41:15in China, but moved to the US.
41:16These were like students who like are raised in China, studying in China, like, you know,
41:21China, like, and this was my first time ever engaging with people that have that life
41:27experience.
41:28What's your take?
41:29The lives of their families have only improved in the last 20 years.
41:33What other people can say that?
41:34Like what other nation group or like people from another country can really say that?
41:38I mean, there are projects right now, like in Mexico and in Brazil that are, you know,
41:42things are getting a lot better, but these are projects that have over the last 20
41:45years really fluctuated.
41:46Speaking to Chinese students, there is a level of optimism.
41:50But my point is like, like you can talk to Chinese people here in China and realize that
41:54like so much of the propaganda is bullshit in like three minutes.
41:57It takes three minutes to have a serious conversation.
42:00And so that was, so that, that to answer your question, like that was the cool part
42:03about like engaging with Chinese students.
42:04Yeah.
42:05In terms of like the international students.
42:07Well, talk about the criticism that you mentioned.
42:09What they were complaining about.
42:11What they were complaining about.
42:12I mean, they like Chinese people, Chinese young people, especially, I think like they
42:17understand that they live in like a world capitalist system.
42:20Like they, they're not under the illusion that like China is immune to market like the world.
42:26I mean, people don't realize how many prices of goods and things are not set in China.
42:32They are set in New York City or like London, right?
42:35Like China is also vulnerable to many of these things, right?
42:40Like it is, I think the trade war is for a lot of young Chinese people.
42:44The first time they realize that China is a bubble, but it's very porous bubble.
42:48It's a much, yes, it's a much, I mean, you have a state here who protects the average
42:53person from a lot of the consequences of these kind of more like world shifting events.
42:58So like, like these students were aware that things were not as bad here as maybe in other countries,
43:03but they still were like, okay, well, I mean, yeah, but you know, school is really stressful.
43:08Right.
43:08And like the guy that, you know, like sometimes, you know, wages aren't as high as maybe I would
43:13like them to be like people like, like, you know, and, and I think the other thing too,
43:18is like one thing that I think is really different about the way that people complain here is that
43:22people are productive complainers as in like, they criticize and complain about things with the
43:27understanding or at least the hope that they can influence those things getting better,
43:32or they have some trust in the people in charge to improve those things.
43:37And I think that just comes that that doesn't come from like a blind loyalty of the party
43:40that comes from an understanding that things literally have gotten better experience.
43:44It's experience.
43:45Right.
43:46But these students are debating and participating in what that could look like.
43:51Right.
43:51Even if they're not like in the party themselves, which I don't know.
43:54I didn't ask every student, like, are you a card carrying member?
43:56But like, even if they're not, I think it even speaks more to the fact that as not party
44:01members, they have thoughts and criticisms and you hear people's comments from the left
44:05perspective and you hear people's from the right perspective, which think that everything
44:09that in China is bad is because it's China.
44:12And that if we were just like the US, which I think those opinions have really lost in the
44:16last 10 years, the last five, you don't hear that that much anymore.
44:19But like, it's present.
44:21It's totally present.
44:22I think one thing that is like a little bit frustrating for me, and I think
44:26we were speaking about this before, is like foreigners are more likely to believe other
44:30foreigners' perceptions about China more than Chinese people.
44:34And I think that's something that we were able to kind of break over the course of those
44:38two weeks because we really created like little friend groups of like some Chinese students,
44:42some foreign students.
44:43Like, it's actually okay to let Chinese people like to define their own narrative.
44:48And a lot of Chinese people will have really different opinions.
44:52I say a lot of white people do great work on China.
44:54There you go.
44:56You know, but it's, I think what we need to be doing, and I'm saying this from like the
45:01global South perspective, right, is like start to engage with Chinese people as like equals
45:05and like really like respect what they have to say about their own project.
45:10And, and, and I think Chinese, actually, I think this is one of the other things I really
45:13took out of this program.
45:15Chinese people need to also start doing the same with other people from the global South,
45:18because I also think within China, there is a misunderstanding of the realities of a lot
45:23of the history of global South countries, the issues that are present in our countries,
45:27where Argentina is on a map, like, and it's not, I'm not, it's, it's okay.
45:32What do you think some of the biggest misunderstandings from the Chinese to the global
45:36South are?
45:38It's a really good question.
45:39And there's always a little bit of truth in every, you know, misunderstanding, right?
45:44I think that people in China think that like US imperialism is like not that big of a deal
45:50in Latin America.
45:52I think sometimes people might not understand, like, so China had an experience with Japanese
45:57imperialism, right?
45:58And that, and, and I would say like the US is our Japan, right?
46:02Like, I think maybe Chinese, some Chinese people, they're just now waking up to how crazy the US is.
46:09No one in Latin America is just now waking up to how crazy the US is, right?
46:14Right.
46:14Like, and I think this is why you hear a lot of criticisms of people in Latin America,
46:20like, oh, the Chinese in the US, they, you know, they make all these deals and they kind
46:23of operate.
46:24I mean, I don't agree, but they got some, some people will say they operate in the same
46:27way or G2, whatever.
46:29Yeah.
46:30Right.
46:31We can criticize things, of course, but we have to do it from a point of understanding.
46:36And we have to understand also that a lot of the information that we're getting is actually
46:39just false, especially when it's relevant to China.
46:41And the best way, in my opinion, to counter this disinformation is people to people exchange.
46:46It's the best way to do it.
46:47But what I mean is just normalizing like China as a partner, as a people, as a place, as
46:55a culture, so that when we hear China, we don't immediately think like bad things.
47:00Right.
47:01Which is unfortunately like what a lot of people think.
47:03We are seeing surveys now that show that that's changing.
47:08So China's doing, I think, a really good job.
47:10And I think progressive people in their countries are also doing a really good job of changing
47:14this perception.
47:15It's not, I think, where it needs to be.
47:17And I think what's really lacking, in my opinion, is like genuine people to people,
47:23cultural exchange, like social movement exchange, whatever that looks like.
47:28Like the summer school.
47:29Like the summer school.
47:31Educational exchange, for sure.
47:33Right.
47:33I want to talk about Rongjiang, though, because...
47:35I love Rongjiang.
47:36That's so interesting to me.
47:37My second house.
47:38Like, I'm really obsessed.
47:39I'm sorry.
47:40Okay.
47:40So tell us about like what Rongjiang is, why did you go?
47:43And I also want to know, what's the story, not the story.
47:47I'm using story in a purely neutral way.
47:48Yeah.
47:49What's the story, the official narrative of the Rongjiang, the kind of the poverty alleviation
47:54miracle?
47:55Yeah.
47:55Like, how do the locals themselves tell it?
47:57Yeah.
47:58So Rongjiang is a county in Guizhou province, and it's relatively rural, I would say.
48:05I mean, there is kind of like, I mean, rural in the
48:07Chinese case is like, it would be a city in another country, but it's quite small.
48:11It's probably the smallest city I've been to in China.
48:14And they have kind of become viral on the internet, kind of known internationally because
48:20they have these, like, yearly, like football, soccer, you know, like very local village level
48:27soccer leagues.
48:28Yeah.
48:28Led by the community with different villages kind of like competing with each other.
48:32They have their own like team shirts.
48:33I bought one, like, it's really great, because a lot of these things are very accessible to
48:37people there.
48:37Like, it's become very much like part of the local culture.
48:40I feel like it has its...
48:41Very internet accessible kind of imagery.
48:43Yeah.
48:43But I will say it's like, yeah, it's great for like social media.
48:46It also just genuinely makes the place look really beautiful.
48:48Mm-hmm.
48:48Like, it's really lovely.
48:50Like, there's a lot of like art, like street art around the sport that I think is like really
48:54lovely.
48:54It makes the...
48:55Anyway.
48:55But yeah, I don't think people were making it seem like a miracle at all.
49:00I think people were making it seem like it was like really hard work and also still really hard
49:04work and like not finished.
49:06Mm-hmm.
49:06And like, so we met with different villagers, like different party leaders, like local party
49:11leaders, of course.
49:13And also just like normal, like, you know, town people who would like receive us in their villages.
49:18And I mean, especially the people who were like really involved in kind of like the digital
49:21uh, commercialization and like promotion of Rongjiang and the products of Rongjiang and like,
49:26you know, mainly agricultural products.
49:29They're like a big watermelon producer or something?
49:31Yes.
49:32Yeah.
49:32Love their watermelon.
49:34There were many other things though, to be honest.
49:36So what did they credit it to?
49:37Because like...
49:38Hard work.
49:38Hard work?
49:39Yeah.
49:39Like political organization, like working, like the party really like capacity...
49:45So like the, the, the party was integral and kind of training people, giving opportunities,
49:51not forcing anyone, but saying, we're going to do a little class on an APM on a Friday,
49:55if you want to learn how to use your phone.
49:57So you can sell your, you know, your watermelon.
49:59Right.
50:00And I don't mean successful as in like capital, because that's the other thing people need
50:03to understand about China.
50:04When someone becomes successful at a grassroots level, it's not like they're buying up their
50:07neighbor's land and becoming like, you know, petite bourgeois.
50:10No, like in most cases, they're just like not, you know, living paycheck to paycheck anymore
50:16and really able to like build their life up and then also support their community in building their...
50:21I think what it meant for them was like, you know, we have stable income, you know,
50:25we're able to, because we're able to make enough money now off of our agricultural products,
50:30we're able to build a little hotel in our village.
50:32We're able to move into different industries, like the diversification of Rangjiang County,
50:38because of like a cultural event that became kind of viral is like incredible because you
50:44don't just focus on turning into a tourism hub, which I think is what would happen in a lot of
50:49Western countries.
50:50Like you have like one place for people to go and you sell really expensive tickets.
50:53No, this is all free.
50:54I was walking at 1230 PM and there was a football game at 1230 AM and there was a football
51:00game
51:00going on, like a local, like just, you know, guys hanging out, playing ball.
51:04Beautiful.
51:05Yeah.
51:06Amazing.
51:07So I guess my point is like, it wasn't a miracle.
51:10They worked really hard.
51:11There was political planning.
51:12There was a lot of failure, a lot of success.
51:16You learn from the failure, you replicate the success if it's replicatable and it's ongoing.
51:21It's not finished.
51:23Like there's a lot of work that still can be done and needs to be done.
51:26We didn't go to all, I think there's like 120 villages,
51:29ethnic minority villages.
51:31I'm sure some of them are very like ethnically mixed area.
51:33And it's huge.
51:35It's like, we drove like two hours up into the middle of a mountain to go to a little village,
51:39like crazy big.
51:42Right.
51:42So like you have to actually like make sure everyone's life is getting better and then also
51:47find ways to maintain it and like continue to improve it.
51:49I can totally imagine your friends who are more on the liberal side and not the leftist side
51:53look at this would say, this is totally normal.
51:56You don't have to explain it in the socialist leftist way.
51:58This is just developmental economics.
52:00You have a good governing institutions at the local level.
52:02You have a hardworking population.
52:04You have a set of good economic policies.
52:06Eventually, these things are going to happen.
52:08It doesn't necessarily mean that leftist policy is right.
52:10It just means a good, sensible, middle of the road, centrist economic policy is the way to go.
52:16Where do you see like either collaborate with the story or like contradicts it?
52:22Well, one thing I would, I will say to anyone on the left is like, it's actually okay to take
52:27credit for things.
52:28Like, like even if your project isn't like straight out of like Lenin's little handbook,
52:34like it's, if you're doing something that's good and it's working and you're a socialist and you want
52:38to promote socialism or whatever, just say that you did it because it was socialist.
52:41And also if you ask a localist, would they say like socialism is part of it?
52:45I mean, maybe like, yeah, some of them probably, others probably would be like, I don't really care.
52:50My life's getting better.
52:50I mean, I don't know.
52:52Yeah.
52:52Cause not everyone's the same.
52:53I mean, the people we spoke to, like probably yes, because you go into like the training center
53:01for the, you know, digital commercialization stuff and there's a hammer and sickle on the wall.
53:05And like, you know, you, you, you get it right.
53:08Does everything have to be like perfect?
53:11Like when, when something starts and if it's working and improving people's lives and not
53:15ruining other people's lives in the process, does it have to be like a socialist fantasy land?
53:20Like, isn't that a little utopian, right?
53:22Like, don't we, isn't the whole thing, like, as we like deal with contradictions,
53:27like other contradictions will arise and then we deal with those as we go.
53:31But I think like, for me, the thing about it is not like how, you know, what can I take
53:37from this experience that's going to make me like the best revolutionary and like copy this
53:41and then do, no, for me, it's like these people's lives are objectively getting like, like, yeah,
53:47not objectively getting better, objectively, not objective.
53:50They're just getting better.
53:50Right.
53:51They're participants in this process.
53:53They're not just observers.
53:55It's not a welfare system.
53:57Right.
53:58It's we, they use this word a lot.
53:59I think it's a word that the left needs to use more protagonism.
54:03These people are protagonists in improving their lives, improving the quality of life
54:08of their neighbors, improving their town's life.
54:11Are people sacrificing a lot of hours of their day working?
54:14Yeah.
54:14Like literally everywhere else.
54:17Of course, I'm not, China is not some like fantasy land.
54:20This is not a utopian country.
54:22It's a lovely country.
54:24I love China.
54:25Really recommend people come here.
54:27People work really hard here, just like they work everywhere else.
54:31It's really normal.
54:33The difference that I felt in Rongjiang is that, one, people were encouraged to do work
54:39and like better their lives in ways that felt really like culturally relevant to their ethnic
54:47group's history, the music that they've been singing since they were kids.
54:51Like you're, they're not like, it's not like capital is coming in and saying, forget about
54:55all this amazing stuff that you had that wasn't profitable before.
54:58Cause it was just you and your friends hanging out and singing.
55:00Here's a, you know, uh, whatever, you know, a factory and go work.
55:04No.
55:05Like in this case, it was like, let's, with all the beauty and all the amazing songs and
55:11all the amazing things that we have as people and as ethnic minorities, how can we use this
55:16to better our lives?
55:18Because in today's world, you need money to do things.
55:22Right.
55:22Like it's just a reality situation.
55:24So like, how do we, and, and, and, and again, like when, when I say this, people in the West
55:28might be like, well, isn't this like how Hollywood makes like films about black suffering and that's
55:35no, it's not.
55:36Cause these people are protagonists and they're actually dictating how these things go.
55:40Another thing that I would add is like, there might be this perception in the West that like
55:43local party leaders are like the top, you know, like the small local tyrants.
55:50No, it's like, they're just like everywhere.
55:52And like, especially in these towns, most of them are young women, which I was really
55:57kind of surprised by, to be honest, a lot of young women, most of the people that accompanied
56:01us were young women actually.
56:02And also there were some like older men who were kind of like the village elders who kind of gave
56:08us more of like the tours of like the history of their village, but there were a lot of young
56:11women and those young women were like learning with us.
56:15Like we had like a talk back session at the end and like the, they were like, we would ask
56:22questions and they would like think about the questions.
56:24And then also kind of like, it was not so much like a go to your party leader and ask
56:28them.
56:29No, it was like, they were like, oh yeah, you know, like this was quite a challenge.
56:33Then we tried this and it's, you know, pretty much working, but you know, no, it was like a discussion.
56:37Are they like local bureaucrats or?
56:40People would introduce themselves as like, you know, I'm the village leader.
56:42Like, and I'm assuming that has some kind of political party related.
56:46And we would go in buildings that had like hammer and sickle.
56:49And those people were like, I'm, I work for the government, right?
56:51Like I'm at whatever young people who were like teaching older people how to use their phone.
56:58Again, really basic things that we forget is important in every country where more and
57:03more things are digitized in China.
57:06Those people are not being forgotten.
57:07Like they're being incorporated into this process of modernization.
57:11In a lot of the world, people still can't afford iPhones or smartphones.
57:16I can barely afford a smartphone, a phone that can scan a picture, right?
57:21You see what I'm saying?
57:22Like having to buy on $100 Xiaomi in Latin America for a lot of people is a really big deal.
57:28It's a really big deal, right?
57:32People forget that.
57:33Yeah.
57:34I mean, if you come to China and just come to Shanghai, you have no idea what China is like.
57:38I'm sorry.
57:39Like I love Shanghai, great city, like would come here to study again.
57:46So like, I think people, people who like, you know, sing China's praises and people who are
57:51just purely critical of China need to chill a little and be like, okay, wait, this is actually
57:56like a really big country.
57:57Instead of just singing China's praises, build things, do things collaboratively.
58:02Like, you know, not just be like, good job, China.
58:06Yeah.
58:07Good job.
58:07A lot of things.
58:08Great.
58:08How can we actually do things together so that I'm not just like complimenting you for,
58:12for the next 40 years of my life?
58:20And this was another episode of China now, a show that opens a window to the present
58:25and future of the Asian giant.
58:27Hope you enjoyed.
58:29See you next time.
58:29Next time.
58:46Have a great day.
58:46Bye.
58:47Bye.
58:51Bye.
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