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06/09/2026
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FTS 12.30
The China Now special program informs about this country's news. Telesur English presents a new episode of “China Now”, a wave media's production that showcases the culture, technology, and politics of the Asian Giant. China Now is a show that explores the past and future of the Asian Giant
teleSUR
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00:09Hello, Telesuri English presents a new episode of China Now, a WAI meetings production that
00:15showcases the culture, technology and politics of the Asian giant. In this first segment,
00:21China Currents take a deep dive into the weak top stories, from the catastrophic glacier collapse
00:27on the China-Nepal border to world leaders gathering in Bishkek for the SCO summit. Let's see.
00:41Hello and welcome to China Currents. This week, a catastrophic glacier collapse on the China-Nepal
00:46border, a 26-year-old promise between an American teacher and a Chinese farmer that just came full
00:52circle, world leaders gathering in Bishkek for the SCO summit, and Chinese scientists growing
00:58muscle that exercises itself. Now, let's begin today's China Currents. A glacier collapse on the
01:04Nepal-Tibet border has turned into one of the deadliest disasters in the region in years,
01:08destroying Giyong port and leaving hundreds dead and thousands more missing on both sides.
01:12It happened around 10 a.m. on August 26th. A glacier on the southern slope of Nepal's Langtang-Lirung peak
01:18broke apart at about 5,200 meters. Ice and rock plunged more than 1,000 meters, picking up mass amounts
01:25of mud, water, and boulder on the way down. Just six to seven minutes later, the debris flow hit Giyong
01:32port. The damage has been immense, as the landslide has effectively flattened the port. 27 buildings have
01:38been destroyed. The inspection hall is now just a steel frame, and only the foundations are left from the
01:44original border gate. In some places, the mud is up to a meter deep, with boulders the size of cars
01:50scattered
01:50across the area. The human toll is still rising. Nepal has confirmed 903 deaths and 4,247 missing.
01:59On the Chinese side, 16 people are dead and 546 remain missing. Hundreds of foreign nationals are
02:06also unaccounted for, including 261 people in Giyong from 23 different countries. The disaster then moved
02:13deep into Nepal's river valleys, where hydropower projects have been hit severely. At least 900
02:19workers were caught trapped in tunnels at several hydropower sites in Rasuwa and Duakot. Hundreds have
02:25since been rescued, but teams are still trying to reach those who remain inside. The speed of the flood
02:31left almost no time to react. In Bidur, Nepal, a school principal received a warning and had just 14
02:37minutes to evacuate more than 900 students and staff. The school was later destroyed, but everyone who was
02:43evacuated survived. So what triggered it? Scientists believe the immediate cause was a massive ice and
02:49rock avalanche. Climate change may be part of the reason. Due to rising temperatures, the high altitude
02:54environment is becoming increasingly unstable as glaciers and frozen ground melt, increasing the risk of
03:00sudden collapses. The debris flow traveled at around 50 meters per second, covering roughly 22 kilometers in
03:07just seven minutes. And this was not the first warning. A smaller glacier flood hit the same watershed
03:13in July 2025, killing 19 people and destroying a border bridge. This time, the scale was far greater.
03:20And the danger may not yet be over. The debris has formed a barrier lake upstream, while another landslide
03:262.8 kilometers downstream is creating a second one. If either gives way, flash floods could hit communities
03:32further down the valley. On the Chinese side, more than 2,000 rescuers have been deployed with helicopters,
03:38sniffer dogs, and life detection equipment. Teams are searching through thick mud while crews work
03:43around the clock to reopen the G216 highway, the main route to Girong port. By August 31st, the road has
03:51been cleared to within about 1.1 kilometers of the port. China is also helping on the Nepali side, sending
03:58emergency supplies, cash aid, and tunnel rescue specialists, while sharing satellite imagery and
04:03hydrological data with Nepal. India and other countries are also providing assistance. For now,
04:09rescuers are still searching for survivors. And with more rain expected in the region, authorities are
04:14watching the newly formed lakes very closely. Now a change of pace onto a very different kind of story.
04:20A 26-year-old promise finally came full circle in China's Inner Mongolia last week.
04:25On August 23rd, 69-year-old retired American teacher Ronald Salkolsky arrived at Ordos airport after more
04:33than 30 hours of travel. Waiting for him at the airport was Yin Yujin, a farmer he had not seen
04:39since
04:39the year 2000. Their story began in 1999. Salkolsky was teaching English in Luoyang when he saw a TV
04:46report about Yin, who was planting trees in the Mu'us desert, one of China's most arid regions. Moved by
04:52what
04:53she was doing, he raised 5,000 from US foundations and sent it to Yin, a woman that he had
04:57never met.
04:58The following year, he traveled to Inner Mongolia to meet her, and when they did, they planted a tree
05:02together. Yin told him, come back in a few years, I will have turned this into a forest. Then they
05:08lost
05:08touch. Yin never stopped planting. Over the next 26 years, she and her family planted more than 8 million
05:15trees across 70,000 Mu'us desert, which is roughly 11,500 acres. The original 5,000 helped create a
05:23grove of more than 50,000 trees, which Yin named the Salkolsky Forest. The Mu'us desert itself has
05:30changed dramatically, with large areas of once bare sand now covered in vegetation, but Salkolsky had
05:35never seen before himself. Then in May, Yin posted a video online. The money you gave me, I turned it
05:42into a
05:42forest. When are you coming to see it? The video spread quickly, and Salkolsky was found within days.
05:49When he walked through the airport glass door, they broke down into an embrace. Salkolsky was in
05:53tears. Yin covered her face. The next day, Yin took him to the forest. They found the tree they had
05:59planted together in 2000. It was now more than 10 meters tall. Salkolsky ran his hand over the bark and
06:04said,
06:05the tree, never expecting it to grow this tall. They told me in 1999, the trees would only grow to
06:15hair, so that it could keep the sand from blowing into the hair. I never thought ever that it would
06:25grow into a tree. Before leaving, Salkolsky filled a jar with sand from the Mu'us desert to take back
06:32to
06:32the US and show his grandchildren. This is not just a jar of sand. This is a jar of love.
06:37Yin gave him
06:38a cross-stitch embroidered with four Chinese characters. Never forget. She also gave him two
06:45pairs of shoe insoles, just as she had 26 years earlier, this time embroidered with always remember
06:50and desert friendship. Salkolsky's trip continues through September 1st. He has additional stops planned
06:57in Beijing and Luoyang to reunite with former students and colleagues. In 1999, a TV report
07:03brought their stories together. 26 years later, the internet brought them back to each other
07:08and planted back to the tree they had planted together. Now, let's turn to some diplomacy.
07:13Chinese President Xi Jinping met with Kyrgyz President Sadir Japparov in Bishkek on August 31st
07:20as leaders from across the region gathered for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Summit.
07:24The SCO was founded 25 years ago by six countries. It now has 10 members, including India and Iran.
07:32At this year's summit, President Xi called for closer cooperation, highlighting trade, energy,
07:38transportation and digital technology. Those priorities also came up in Xi's meeting with Japparov.
07:44The two countries signed a treaty on permanent good neighborliness, friendship and cooperation.
07:49They also signed deals on investment, transportation and customs.
07:54One of the biggest project's ongoing talks right now is the China-Kyrgyzstan-Uzbekistan Railway.
07:59It will run from China's Xinjiang through Kyrgyzstan to Uzbekistan, opening a new rail link between China
08:05and Central Asia. For Kyrgyzstan, the railway could make trade with major markets easier. For China,
08:12it adds another route into Central Asia. The two countries are also teaming up on security,
08:18cracking down on drug trafficking and cross-border crime. Newer areas of cooperation
08:23include artificial intelligence, digital trade and renewable energy. The SCO itself is also changing.
08:29It now has 10 members and a much broader agenda than it did 25 years ago.
08:33All right, onto something a little stranger. What if you could get the benefits of exercise without
08:40moving a muscle? Chinese scientists may have found a way. Researchers from the Chinese Academy of Sciences
08:46and PLA General Hospital have developed lab-grown muscle implants that can contract on their own
08:52without signals from the nervous system. In experiments on mice, the implants increased muscle mass,
08:58improved bone density and endurance and even improved measures of cognitive function.
09:02In obese mice, blood sugar and cholesterol levels also fell, and the mice never lifted a paw. So,
09:09just how does this work? Skeletal muscle isn't just there to move your body. When it contracts,
09:15it also releases signaling molecules that can affect metabolism, inflammation and other organs,
09:20including the brain. The researchers are essentially trying to reproduce that part of exercise with
09:25engineered muscle tissue. The key is that the muscle cells are organized so the tissue can generate
09:30spontaneous contractions on its own. No workout and no external stimulation is needed to make it move.
09:37And this isn't meant to replace the gym. The goal is to help people who can't exercise normally,
09:42such as bedridden patients or people suffering from severe muscle loss.
09:46The study, published in Nature Aging on August 26th, is still in the early stages, and human trials are
09:52nowhere near. But it raises an intriguing possibility. What are the implications if some of the benefits of
09:59exercise could one day be delivered through engineered muscle instead?
10:04And that's our four stories for this week. Thank you for watching China Currents, and we'll see you next time.
10:17We have a short break now, but don't go away because we'll be right back.
10:40Welcome back to China now. In the second segment, Thinker's Forum presents another face-to-face among the Global South,
10:48with Professor Xi Huang Jin in conversation with José Barrios, Professor at the Institute of International Relations at the University
10:56of Brasilia,
10:57to address communitas, governance, and the de-dependency development of the Global South toward a non-hegemonic world.
11:05And also, to delve deep in this discussion, Thinker's Forum receives Farwa Cial,
11:11Research Associate in the Department of Economics at the SOAS University of London. Let's have a look.
11:30In addition to your colleague's recommendation, what brings you, why do you want to come over?
11:36So, this is a very important question, because in Brazil we keep studying and thinking about China's role in the
11:45world.
11:46Yes.
11:46And I have never been here before, never been to Asia, and when I saw this opportunity, I thought it
11:54was the best way to be in kind of going to the future.
11:59And I'm visiting the country that's providing the resources for the rest of the world to develop and to connect
12:08with other people.
12:09So I really wanted to be here to try to understand what is China and what is China doing, and
12:16how does it feel to be here,
12:19instead of only reading on the news, China's economy, about China's political proposals for the world.
12:27I think studying international, even though I don't study China, but studying…
12:31What are you working on?
12:32I work with South-South Cooperation, and I mean, everyone who works with South-South Cooperation has heard about Chinese
12:40projects.
12:41So, for instance, what I tell my students is the biggest project in South-South Cooperation, it was made by
12:49China in the 70s, in Africa, and that is the Tazara Railway.
12:54Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With the previous guest, Emily Wilcox, she spoke in today's lecture, we talked about the Tanzanians'
13:04role.
13:04Tanzania, Zambia, and studying South-South Cooperation, it gives you some knowledge about China's cooperation and project,
13:13but I wanted to be here and to see for myself, how does it feel in a developed country that…
13:20I think we, in the Global South, we aspire to connect with China and to conduct research and projects and
13:30cooperation.
13:31I know that my country aspires to cooperate with China. I was telling my colleague here when we were coming
13:38that the only country that Brazil has satellite cooperation is China.
13:44Yeah. Since the 90s, the government of Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Being a scholar in Brazil of international relations makes you
13:54really curious about Chinese development, Chinese history, and Chinese proposal for global governance.
14:00Yeah, fairly recent one. Yeah. I'm very interested in how is this proposal to reshape governance from state-oriented to
14:09people-oriented?
14:10Yeah. And how can the rest of the global South also be an actor in that governance, not only recipients
14:18of resources and projects? So…
14:23I mean, what you said resonates with the theme of this year's summer school very, very well. Yeah.
14:30And I really appreciate it, because you started with the 70s sort of China, right? This means that the South
14:38-South Cooperation didn't really start overnight.
14:40It's a long continuation. And whenever we're talking about Chinese development today, we tend to forget about it's not only
14:50just happening in the last two decades.
14:54It happens over time, gradually. China turns from small and weak countries into nowadays China.
15:01China. And the study of development really should have that historical aspect implemented into it. And also you bring forward
15:11the importance of people-to-people exchange.
15:14It's not only just about, sort of, we meet together as people-to-people. The whole development and governance agenda
15:22should have people at its core.
15:24To make life better, to make people's life better is the core.
15:29That is very amazing, because when we study development, or even IR, we think about political units, such as states.
15:39Yeah, yeah.
15:40And states gathering in the United Nations in New York, or maybe in Paris or Geneva, but we usually forget
15:50that international relations.
15:51And for me, that is a real thing. It's about people also, and about solidarity, and about connecting, and also
16:01traveling. That's what I'm doing now.
16:03And also about, I mean, I come to China, and I think also about flavors.
16:08What do you mean, flavors?
16:10The special flavors that are here in food.
16:15Ah, so quite literally the flavors.
16:17Yes, literally the flavors.
16:18We also connect through sharing dinner, and food, and having these delicious meals I have here.
16:26And sharing dishes, that sort of thing.
16:28Sharing dishes, yes.
16:29And talking from people in the taxis.
16:34How do you speak to people in the taxis?
16:36Like the translator.
16:39But before I was in China, I was in South Africa.
16:42Right.
16:43And Mozambique.
16:44Yeah.
16:45When was that?
16:46One week ago.
16:47Oh, I see.
16:48You traveled from South Africa.
16:49No, but I came back to Brazil, rested three days, and came to China.
16:54Oh, wow.
16:55So it's a real Global South tour.
16:58Yeah.
16:58And I went to the University of Pretoria.
17:01Yeah.
17:01To the International Studies Association conference.
17:05And I was assigned to be in a discussion in a panel about China and Africa relations.
17:12This global Africa compact and relations with China.
17:18And it was very amazing to see, very surprising to see scholars from all over the world, from
17:25Turkey, from Brazil, from England, discussing the role of China in Africa.
17:31Without Chinese though?
17:33No, not Chinese.
17:34It's interesting.
17:35It's not my field, but it's something that in Brazil we also very, we are paying attention
17:41for it.
17:42How China moves in Africa.
17:44Right.
17:44Just like in Latin America.
17:46And just like in the case of Brazil, that China is now the first trading partner within
17:55our country.
17:56And it's also with others.
17:58And it's the same thing in Africa.
18:00And people are really benefiting from this cooperation.
18:03Can you elaborate on that?
18:05How exactly?
18:06Yeah.
18:06Not only because of infrastructure and resources, but of the possibility of constructing autonomous
18:14relationships with a great power like China.
18:20And not reproducing colonial inequalities.
18:25That's very interesting because you say autonomous, right?
18:29Autonomous relationship.
18:30Autonomous relationship.
18:31Could you sort of clarify for us what you mean by autonomous relationship?
18:36I mean, I think autonomous relationships.
18:37What makes it different from what you said, the colonial power?
18:41The one in which we can also pursue our own interests.
18:46For instance, usually the Global South doesn't get infrastructure cooperation with IMF or World Bank.
18:54And we can do it with China.
18:56And we can preserve our national interests and ideologies and still cooperate and benefit from it.
19:06And also China can benefit from trading with us and cooperating with us.
19:10This is what I mean by autonomy.
19:13The chance of advancing our own national interest within international development or international cooperation.
19:24It's the not forgetting about what we want also from the relations we build around the world and around the
19:35governance.
19:36It's quite important.
19:37And I think, in fact, China has been repeatedly accused of being a new colonial power, a new imperialist power.
19:46It's sometimes for the Chinese to defend against this rhetoric, it became quite difficult.
19:55But it's important to hear from a sort of Global South's perspective.
19:59And what I'm curious about is how, in your experience, how exactly the Brazilian community, people benefiting from a much
20:11more neutral,
20:13sort of a much more respective relationship.
20:17So I can give you one example on agricultural cooperation.
20:20Right, right.
20:22We are an agricultural country.
20:24We are now using Chinese machinery to improve, not agrobusiness, which is the big agriculture, but popular agriculture in Brazil.
20:37Right.
20:37So popular movements.
20:39Food productivity.
20:39Yes.
20:40Increasing food productivity, food sovereignty, because we are a country that produces food, but we don't have food sovereignty.
20:49So we are using Chinese agricultural machines.
20:54Yeah.
20:54Machinery.
20:55Popular movements in agriculture are-
20:58The landless.
20:58Yes.
20:59The landless.
21:00Farmers movement.
21:01Yeah.
21:01Farmers movement is promoting the use of Chinese agricultural machines to improve productivity.
21:09Yeah.
21:10I tried their coffee and chocolate.
21:13It was really good.
21:14And they are the biggest rice exporters in Brazil.
21:18Oh, citical rice.
21:19Yeah.
21:20Not the common suspect, the soybean.
21:24No, rice that really feeds people.
21:26Right.
21:27And with that rice, we can also provide rice for other countries, such as Palestine.
21:35Right.
21:35The rice we sent to Palestine is made by that movement.
21:40Oh.
21:41I've heard that.
21:41To UNRWA, the United Nations Agency to Relief of Palestinian Refugees.
21:48Right.
21:48So it's Brazilian-produced rice sent to Palestine, but produced because of Chinese-
21:54Yeah.
21:54Now it's using Chinese machinery.
21:56Machinery.
21:57Machinery.
21:57Yeah.
21:57There are several agreements between Chinese and Brazilian universities.
22:02Oh.
22:03So there is a big epistemic community that comes and goes from China to Brazil, from Brazil
22:09to China.
22:10China.
22:10And everyone is getting to know each other.
22:14That's so wonderful.
22:15Yeah.
22:15And I really do, out of all the places that I've traveled to in the Global South, I think
22:20food security, food sovereignty is the most important issue that everyone should face.
22:26And it's one of the biggest agendas of our government now, and to make it also a turning point
22:35for the global governance to internalize that agenda as well.
22:41Yeah.
22:41I mean, people talk about global governance as if this is something happening thousands of
22:46miles away, unrelated to the local community, determined by a bunch of suited guys in the
22:52United Nations or somewhere that are completely unrelated to them.
22:56But in fact, the global governance is about coordination on the global level to support
23:03the livelihood of the local people, to make life better.
23:08It's really people centric.
23:09Yeah.
23:10This is really what I think of what international cooperation is.
23:14It's about how to improve people's lives.
23:17Yeah.
23:17It's not only about a project and resources and offices and consultants in Washington or
23:24Geneva.
23:25Yeah.
23:26But how can we improve lives of people in the poorest countries, including Brazil, but we
23:33are also in a position that we can help.
23:35Right.
23:35So we have several projects with Mozambique and Lusophone African countries and Latin America,
23:40which is our main geographical space that we emphasis in our foreign policy.
23:46So it's about improving.
23:48That's extremely important.
23:50It's not about, oh, your great powers and you have the more responsibility.
23:55Everyone has a responsibility to the community.
23:58We could work.
23:59We should work equally and we could work together for a shared future.
24:03And then, you know, it was very impressive.
24:05I was walking in the streets of Maputo in Mozambique last week.
24:10Yeah.
24:11And there is also a great Mozambican and Chinese exchange.
24:15Yeah.
24:16Yeah.
24:16I've never been to Mozambique.
24:17And I saw this very big hotel written in Chinese.
24:21Oh, I encountered something similar in Ethiopia.
24:26In Ethiopia?
24:27Yeah.
24:27Yeah.
24:27And then I think, wow, this is a great feature of our coming world order.
24:34The possibility of having people of other countries working for the development of another nation.
24:43Yeah.
24:44And contributing to the development of another nation.
24:47Exactly.
24:48Business, technology, university, academia.
24:52Yeah.
24:52That's really amazing.
24:54I saw it also in South Africa.
24:55I see it also in Latin America.
24:57Where about?
24:58My background is I was born in Nicaragua.
25:00Oh, you are?
25:01Yeah.
25:01And my family is from Guatemala.
25:03And in Guatemala there is also a lot of exchange.
25:06Yeah.
25:07And I have this family history.
25:09My grandfather, he came to China in 1961 because of the Communist Party in Guatemala.
25:16And the Communist Party of China.
25:18Oh, wow.
25:19And 65 years later, I'm the first member of the family who returned to China.
25:26Oh, that's a lovely story.
25:28Yeah.
25:28So I see this disconnectivity, I feel.
25:31This connectivity.
25:32And one, it's sentimental.
25:33It runs in the family.
25:34But also, it really depicts the nature of South South's cooperation.
25:40It's not something formal.
25:42Sometimes it could be formal.
25:43But for most of the cases, it's not formal, formalized through the institutional exchange.
25:49But it is in existence through the people-to-people exchange.
25:53And it runs within the minds and the heart of people, passing down from generation to generation.
26:01Yeah.
26:01We actually don't need to have an institution such as the OECD.
26:06Right.
26:06To cooperate with each other.
26:09And we don't have to do the same thing.
26:12We don't have to define cooperation the same way.
26:15One can define South South cooperation as technical cooperation.
26:19One can define South South cooperation as trade or investments.
26:24Yeah.
26:25But we connect each other through multiple channels.
26:31And we deliver development for the people who need it.
26:34So I think it's so much more interesting in a way of conducting foreign policy, diplomacy.
26:42Exactly.
26:43Cooperation.
26:43We don't need to harmonize our concepts.
26:45We don't have the same definitions.
26:48But we understand each other in that way.
26:51Yeah.
26:51By working together.
26:53By sort of committing to the same goal.
26:56Really sort of coordinate with each other to deliver that goal.
27:00Which is people-centered development to make life better.
27:03Yeah.
27:04For me, the word is exchange.
27:07Yeah.
27:07Exchange.
27:08Whatever.
27:08Projects or infrastructure, technology.
27:11Or culture.
27:12Culture, satellites.
27:14I mean, that's very important.
27:15And funny enough, I was recently working on an article that sort of tries to emphasize
27:21that point.
27:22South South cooperation, of course, there is an institutionalized element, right?
27:25So like Bandung Conference is partially institutionalized.
27:29BRICS is institutionalized.
27:32Not in a fashion like the World Bank or IMF, but it is a platform for people to formally meet.
27:39But a majority of the collaboration and cooperation happens, at least from a Western IR perspective,
27:48informal.
27:49Right?
27:51They don't have a secretariat.
27:53They don't have bylaws.
27:54They don't have sort of regulations to combine.
27:57They don't even, as you said, have to have a common sort of mandate to work on certain things.
28:04They don't need to be similar.
28:05But the crucial thing is we need to see and work together with each other.
28:11Yes.
28:12I mean, that's the most important thing, to work each other.
28:17And in Brazil, South South cooperation is institutionalized, but within the country.
28:22Yeah.
28:22So we have an agency, a cooperation agency.
28:25But we don't need an international organization telling us how to frame our cooperation or to
28:34decide for us if contributions to international organization or military cooperation should
28:41be defined as developing cooperation.
28:44We have the autonomy to define for ourselves.
28:47I think BRICS is a very important dimension of our relations that can be even more useful
28:56for us now that BRICS expanded.
28:59Brazil has a very eager to cooperate more with BRICS.
29:03Can you say more about it?
29:04What does Brazil aspire for from the BRICS?
29:09For instance, just now we had the first big cooperation for universities of Brazil to
29:17study BRICS.
29:18The first time that the Ministry of Education calls the universities to promote a network
29:27of BRICS countries.
29:28Oh, you're doing it right now.
29:30Yeah, you're doing it right now.
29:31So, but we think that BRICS might be the alternative to build a better world for our own interests.
29:41So lovely.
29:42Yeah.
29:42And since the new international economic order proposal of 1974 didn't work, now we feel
29:51that BRICS is that kind of path we can pursue.
29:57It's not only a path, it's an avenue of several paths.
30:00Yeah, it's a possibility.
30:01A big avenue, several paths.
30:04We can still do much better in enhancing our cooperation within BRICS, bilaterally, and
30:11constructing our own institutions such as the Development Bank.
30:16Yeah.
30:17Yeah.
30:17Now the Development Bank is…
30:19Which is here in Shanghai.
30:20Yes.
30:21Headquarters.
30:22Headquarters.
30:22Headed by Dilma Rousseff.
30:24Yes.
30:24So for us it's a reason to be proud of that Dilma Rousseff is running.
30:29Last year we celebrated also a big seminar about BRICS in our university.
30:35Yeah.
30:35And we have a laboratory of BRICS study.
30:38So we are beginning to…
30:39We have the same thing.
30:40We have a BRICS institute.
30:42We even have a MA program dedicated to BRICS study.
30:45Oh, man.
30:46It's an English taught.
30:47Maybe that's our next step to making a BRICS program.
30:51We should.
30:52We should.
30:52I mean, even without a camera we could sit down and have a…
30:55Yeah.
30:56And like a joint…
30:56Yeah, joint research.
30:58Joint research.
31:00Since, as I mentioned, we do actively… we are trying to promote the research agenda
31:06called shared development.
31:08Yes.
31:08That's all.
31:09And funny enough, you mentioned a new international economic order.
31:14The Global South have attempted for building a fairer world order repeatedly throughout history.
31:23Although, I mean, the rhetoric would say, the Western-centric rhetoric would say, oh, all
31:28those initiatives failed.
31:30But if we look in a long historical durée, all those initiatives, they are gearing towards
31:37the same goals.
31:39Yes.
31:39Which means it's a continuation of attempts.
31:42Yes.
31:42I don't believe it has failed.
31:44No, me neither.
31:45I think it's an important contribution to international politics.
31:50Exactly.
31:51The whole movement since 1955 in Bandung.
31:54Yeah.
31:54And then 1961, the non-aligned movement.
31:58Non-aligned.
31:58And then…
31:5966…
32:00G77.
32:01Also, the emergence of UNCTAC.
32:04UNCTAC.
32:06UNCTAC, yeah.
32:06Yeah.
32:07Thanks to…
32:08Once in my lecture, I talked about Prebysh and Che Guevara's contribution to UNCTAC.
32:16And ECLAC.
32:17We call it CEPAO, the Economic Commission for Latin America.
32:21Yeah.
32:21Yeah.
32:22Structurally, the dependency theory.
32:24Yes.
32:24Yes.
32:25So, we have international thought about it.
32:30Yeah.
32:31I think what brings us together was the decolonizing.
32:35The decolonizing IR events in Turkey.
32:39Yeah.
32:40The decolonizing forum.
32:41Yeah.
32:42What truly is decolonizing is by reviving, on one hand, reviving all those forgotten practices
32:49and theories, and then to talk about their relevance to the contemporary world.
32:53And then to truly develop the theory, IR theory, developmental theory, and global governance theory
33:01to the future.
33:04For me, decolonizing IR is beginning to think from our own reality.
33:12Yeah.
33:12And constructing categories of analysis from our own reality.
33:17And I do believe South-South cooperation makes it a good deal to, as a category of analysis,
33:23understand international politics of the 20th century.
33:27Mm-hmm.
33:28The whole Bandung spirit, the new international economic order, those are very big and important
33:34proposals from the global South, to the global South, and for the global South.
33:39And then with the aspiration to build the whole world order into a fairer one.
33:43Right?
33:44And the collaboration is not by saying, oh, it's only by the global South, henceforth,
33:51we're going to exclude the North.
33:52No.
33:53Bandung conference never says that.
33:55And the same with the new international economic order.
33:59Right?
33:59We just want a fairer, less unequal world order.
34:03Yeah.
34:04Of course, it's about our interest shaping the world as well.
34:10Yeah.
34:10And not only our interest.
34:11Yeah, exactly.
34:12Not as the recipient of ordering, not as the being ordered.
34:16It's like a fair agency of shaping the order by ourselves and together with the...
34:22Yes.
34:22And recognizing that the world is very diverse.
34:26Yeah.
34:26And full of people that want to live better lives.
34:30Yeah.
34:30And the states and governments have the responsibility to do it.
34:35Absolutely.
34:36Yeah.
34:36I mean, that's the whole idea.
34:38With the people at the centric and the state, at least at the current stage,
34:42plays a very crucial role in facilitating that.
34:45Yeah.
34:45I really think that we can see the world differently using the South-South cooperation.
34:50I agree.
34:51We can not provide, we can acknowledge the agency of third world countries in the global
34:57South, the agency, the difference between our institutions and countries, and also the
35:04resistance that we have made for the international world.
35:09Right now, the story has always been told from the global North perspective.
35:13Top-downs.
35:14It was by design.
35:16A couple of ingenious minds helped to design the world order from above.
35:21But really, it was the people's engagement, the non-Western parts of the world, the new
35:28colonizing parts of the world, sort of actively engaging, finding their place in this newly,
35:34rapidly shaping world order.
35:35Yeah.
35:36It has come the time for us to rethink history, tell our own history, and build our own concepts,
35:43and theorize.
35:44And then theorize based on that experience.
35:46Based on that.
35:46Well, not only, well, not excluding the…
35:49Not, yeah.
35:50Yeah, but based on the experience, by including a diverse experience from media.
36:06China is a very important country for the global South, and has been for a very long
36:12time.
36:12But China's rise is very important because it challenges the unipolar order, and has done
36:21so well in this century.
36:24And some of the gains of Chinese development, which now are very well known, including poverty
36:30elevation, raise in living standards, and an alternative model to mainstream capitalism
36:38is something that was, you know, not foreseen by a lot of countries.
36:42Yeah.
36:42Especially in the way that it was done, and also in the method that was exercised.
36:47So…
36:48Can you be more specific?
36:49What do you mean by the method?
36:50Well, it's not through conquest, let's say.
36:53Yeah.
36:53That's the first thing, of course, because the model of capitalism that we have currently
36:57is based on a model of loot, which is historical colonialism.
37:03And there was also this sense that without that model, it's not possible to rise in the
37:09world as a global power.
37:10Yeah.
37:10And China has shown that there is an alternative way, and it continues its revolutionary socialism
37:18project, which…
37:19Do you think it is convincing enough?
37:20The model, you mean?
37:22Yeah.
37:22Well, I mean, China has specifically said it wants a different approach, and it tries
37:27to convince the rest of the world that there are different ways of modernization, right?
37:32But the biggest challenge coming from… you're based in London, half-time based in London,
37:37right?
37:37So you're familiar with that kind of rhetoric, a challenge coming towards China to say that,
37:42nah, you're no different from them, sorry.
37:44Yeah.
37:46Well, historically, I mean, we can see that, you know, there are no invasions, there is
37:50no violence, there is no extraction.
37:53So therefore, it's not a model which has been there for a very long time.
37:58It is a different model.
37:59There are two questions.
38:00First, is it possible for the Global South to emulate it?
38:03And I think that's not possible.
38:05But is it a model which has been in the advantage of China and the Global South?
38:10Yes, very much so.
38:11Because without doing what China has done, without intertwining with capital markets,
38:16but also controlling its own economy in a very planned sense, it wouldn't have been
38:21possible to be where China is at the moment.
38:24But also, the kind of investment we see globally, the model of investment for the last 20 years,
38:31which actually is something that was not possible.
38:34In many countries, there were no roads.
38:36There was no infrastructure.
38:37There was no investment as well as there is infrastructure, but there are also hospitals.
38:42There was also technical support.
38:43So this model was absent.
38:45It exists now.
38:47They're not competing models at all.
38:48They have to be analyzed in very different ways.
38:51And they have to be analyzed in comparison, of course, but also in the limitations that
38:57were put on China.
38:59Because China is still a developing country.
39:02China is still part of the Global South.
39:05And that means that it's also vulnerable to US imperial assaults as other countries.
39:11So there is that concern that the Global South also has for China and for its own security.
39:16Pakistan, half-time spending there, right?
39:19Yeah.
39:20There are loads of projects from China in Pakistan.
39:24Can you just share with your own personal experience?
39:27How do you see those projects?
39:29Is there any projects nearby where you live?
39:33Or is there any projects that has a real impact on people's life?
39:38Yeah.
39:38So I think Pakistan and China have a historical relationship.
39:42Yeah.
39:43Which has been historically unprecedented.
39:47It's very close simply because of the geopolitics.
39:49But also there is a border between the countries, which makes them very close.
39:53And this historical relationship transformed in 2015 when the Belt Road Initiative launches
39:58the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.
40:01And this was an investment of 40 billion moving up to 60 billion, around 62 billion later on.
40:07And it's huge.
40:08It has transformed Pakistan's economy in many ways.
40:12There is now a demographic shift in Pakistan as well with Chinese migrants living in Pakistan.
40:19And in that sense, it's transformational for a number of reasons.
40:23First, there is the flow of FDI and capital, which is unprecedented compared to previous years.
40:31Second, there is now a different kind of market creation, which is more regional.
40:36Because when we talk about the Belt Road, when we talk about China-Pakistan Economic Corridor,
40:41we're also talking about regionalizing, how the Central Asia, Afghanistan, China, Pakistan,
40:48Iran, how they're connecting.
40:49And this is very important for Pakistan because since 1947, since it gained independence,
40:56it's living in a situation where it's quite isolated.
41:00You have borders, but those borders are in a way sometimes hostile, sometimes politically not viable.
41:07Therefore, you don't have trade, you don't have economic growth in the way that you would like.
41:12And there is this, under the auspices of the US, there is connection with the Gulf states as well as
41:17the US.
41:18I mean, so there is a different kind of cultural as well as economic growth model that Pakistan has been
41:24pursuing
41:24for a very long time, which has now transformed since China-Pakistan Economic Corridor has been established.
41:31I'm very, very curious about how exactly the China-Pakistan Corridor and what specific projects and practices
41:39have transformed the dynamics of border conflicts or the tension within the border area.
41:47It's not so much the border conflicts. First of all, I mean, we must understand what the-
41:51The tensions, like the socio-economic development.
41:54Well, I mean, you have to really simply start from the point of what happens when there is large
42:00foreign direct investment in an economy which wasn't there.
42:03Yeah.
42:03So this is necessarily something-
42:05This is a huge variable, right?
42:06There's something different.
42:06Absolutely. There is a substitution effect. There is replacements of power, hierarchy, class dynamics.
42:14Yeah.
42:15But also suddenly you have this money coming in and you have to absorb it. You have to create employment.
42:20You have to be able to then pursue this capital in a way which transforms your economy.
42:27So this is a necessary social tension that's been there. But we also have to remember that
42:32Pakistan is a very politically sensitive country and its relations with the US, with the Gulf states,
42:39and with other states make it, you know, the issue is no longer or never has been internal.
42:45It's always been driven by a series of external geopolitical factors.
42:50Oh, it's an entanglement, intertwining elements of external and internal factors.
42:55And make it more complex.
42:56Absolutely, yeah. So in that sense, we're not simply talking about capital.
43:02We're not simply talking about investment.
43:04We're talking about vested interests, which are not simply vested interests within the state,
43:08but vested interests globally.
43:10Yeah. I mean, that's very sort of inspiring.
43:14And it correlates with the themes that we're trying to promote here, both in the summer school
43:21as well as in the developmental plan of the school itself.
43:26We want to talk about shared development because the idea of development was largely viewed,
43:32at least in the previous decades, viewed as pure economic sense.
43:37This is all about market. It's all about foreign investment.
43:41But at the end of the day, development doesn't matter if it is economic development or whatsoever.
43:48It's about its impact towards the local community and how it changed and reshaped the dynamics within the community.
43:56So development is not just about making profits. Development is about making people's life better.
44:02And what you just portrayed is, I think it is quite vividly echoing or responding towards one,
44:12the limits of existing developmental studies. And second, the importance of bringing in other elements,
44:18such as the social, people-centric elements, to understand what is development for the future.
44:24Yeah. Yeah. No, I think the course was really important because it was very diverse.
44:29So I like the fact that we're talking about monetary sovereignty, we're talking about markets,
44:34but we're also talking about South-South cooperation.
44:37And culture, I think, today.
44:39And culture. Yeah. And culture and what decolonization means.
44:42Literature tomorrow. And then we have international law guide.
44:48Oh, that's great.
44:48Because also arts are really important. And I'm always also surprised when I move between, let's say,
44:56now the West and the East, that all the things that are considered ancillary or not important,
45:04like arts, like media, how they're completely captives in that part of the world now,
45:11because they're simply about a certain linear capitalist message. But there is so much...
45:16Is it the same in Pakistan? No, not in Pakistan. I mean, that's what I'm trying to say,
45:22that in the West, it's a very different message, because everything is captured.
45:27Whereas there are different ways of being, different ways of thinking, different approaches to art, culture, humanities,
45:32which exists in even very poor countries as well. And in China, of course, there is a lot of emphasis
45:38on these as a way of life.
45:40You know, literature, fiction, but also music and cinema.
45:46So whereas that is foreclosing the possibility of thought, there is an opening up here and the rest of the
45:56world,
45:57even when there are not enough resources. And that's something we need to think about.
46:01And then this is something that we need to see, because there is a lack of...
46:07It's not lack of practices, diverse practices all across the world within the framework of existing unequal structure.
46:14It's the unequal structure of the current world system that controls the channel of communication.
46:20So we won't be able to see there is a diversity in Pakistan, like in local practices.
46:28And what's more, all those diversities, they do not drive us apart.
46:35What we are trying to do here is to demonstrate that we have our own diversity.
46:41But all those indigenous practices, they echo with each other, because we aspire for the same thing.
46:50Yeah, that's a very important point, because, you know, you cannot keep identities intact under capitalism, even when you make
46:58them.
46:58There is no privileging of identities, even when we say there are multiple identities.
47:04And in nature and human life, there are things that are not homogenous.
47:09There are differences and they complement each other and they move forward.
47:12And politically, this is something we also always see that this is what a unipolar world order was about.
47:19It was about a linearity of thought. It was about a linearity of politics.
47:23And it was about a linearity of economics, which is really about extraction.
47:29Or is about extraction, actually. We're living in that era, right?
47:32Exactly.
47:32Yeah.
47:33We've not gone past that.
47:34Yeah.
47:35But at the same time, with the shackle of extraction, we're still trying to aspire for more.
47:40Yeah.
47:41Yeah, that's right.
47:42I will ask the same question to pretty much everyone.
47:45What would you do if there is one wish you can make?
47:50What would you do to make this world a better place?
47:53Well, that's a very loaded question.
47:55I suppose, well, we can think about it in very practical terms.
48:02Exactly.
48:03That's what I like about it.
48:05Which is that for the Global South, in my view, the biggest problem or the biggest constraint is the inability
48:14to pursue autonomous development.
48:16Right.
48:17It doesn't matter what mode of governance you have.
48:21Ultimately, there is a leadership and there is a relationship between the state and polity and so on.
48:27That is not possible as long as we talk about the primacy or the primary contradiction, which is US-led
48:36imperialism at the moment.
48:37And if we want to think about a world outside it, we have to consider a world which is not
48:43unipolar, which is not bipolar, but which has equality of states.
48:46Exactly.
48:47And in that sense, I think the Chinese model, China's historical example, has to be something which is with the
48:54Global South.
48:54So, thinking of a model which is based on human dignity, which is based on basic respect, and a way
49:02of life which guarantees class equality from a collective perspective.
49:08And I think that's not an impossible goal.
49:10That's a goal that we've seen happen in many countries.
49:15And in many historical periods.
49:17Many historical periods.
49:18You're talking about the 1960s and 1970s.
49:20So, I think China's role in the global economy now is to work with the Global South and collectively seek
49:28the resurrection of a third world project.
49:30Yeah.
49:31I think that's a very concrete goal.
49:33It's not ambitious.
49:35It's not abstract.
49:37No.
49:37But to bring that aspiration even more down to earth, what can, let's say, the summer school do?
49:45I think summer school, first of all, is doing a good job in terms of getting a lot of young
49:51people together.
49:52Yeah.
49:52So, as South Asia, I think we have very little understanding of Latin America, which of course is very far
49:57away.
49:58Sure.
49:58But I would say that even understanding what's happening in China, what is the approach to sciences and humanities, how
50:04they're unified.
50:04Mm-hmm.
50:05The approach to education in general or even the very concept of what a student means is very different.
50:14Yes.
50:14A student is not a consumer.
50:16He or she is someone that we need to cultivate.
50:18This is something we give to the next generation.
50:21So, I really like the fact that students are treated in a very special way here, in a nurturing way,
50:28making room for the next generation, but also the emphasis on, as you say, different subjects.
50:34That was really interesting for me to see because this is not something that we see in the Western education
50:40system at the moment.
50:41I mean, it's a great promotion for our summer school.
50:45No, thank you for having me.
50:47I really enjoyed meeting students from across the world, but also students from China.
50:52I learned many things from them.
50:54This just goes to show that, of course, you're always learning, but how you need perspectives which are from different
51:01geographies, let's say.
51:02Yeah.
51:02Yeah.
51:03That's lovely that you said that.
51:05One of the goals that we want to achieve is to bring not only intellectuals together, but also bring the
51:13intellectuals from all parts of the world closer to the practitioners, closer to the students, to create a hub of
51:21exchange and mingle.
51:23Yeah.
51:24Yeah.
51:24Hopefully, we could, through those activities and practices and sharing, we could theorize the future together.
51:31Yeah.
51:31Thank you so much for having me.
51:33No, thank you for coming over.
51:40And this was another episode of China Now, a show that opens a window to the present and future of
51:47the Asian giant.
51:48Hope you enjoy it.
51:49See you next time.
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