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CJP leaders seek urgent night hearing over extension of judicial custody
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00:00Welcome, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary, wishing all our viewers a very, very happy Dushaira and on
00:06to one of our top stories.
00:07Well, there seems to be, at least for now, no relief for the Kaukro Janata Party co-convenors.
00:12Both Saurav Das and Ashutosh Ranka will now remain in jail at least till October 21st, which is tomorrow.
00:19This after a magistrate extended their custody and rejected their sureties.
00:23The court says they breached the peace bonds and showed disrespect for the law.
00:27The CJP alleges the proceedings are designed now to keep its leaders behind bars and administer a chilling effect because
00:35legally it's inexplicable.
00:38Meanwhile, RSS Chief Mr Mohan Bhagwat says protests must focus on solutions and not regime change.
00:45Here's the full report.
00:50Saurav Das and Ashutosh Ranka to stay in jail for another day.
00:54The two cockroach Janata Party co-convenors will remain in judicial custody till October 21st.
01:02After a special executive magistrate extended their custody by two days, rejecting the sureties submitted for their release.
01:12The court accused the two leaders of deliberately breaching their peace bonds, saying their conduct showed disrespect for the law.
01:20It also cited fears of a fresh breach of peace and said their assurance that they would not repeat the
01:26alleged acts failed to inspire confidence.
01:29It said fresh sureties found unfit in the matter and sureties failed to ensure their appearance and asked for fresh
01:38sureties.
01:43The case stems from the October 13 protests at Jantar Mantar, where CGP leaders allegedly entered the denotified protest site
01:51and raised slogans against Chief Election Commissioner Gyanish Kumar.
02:02The case has now been transferred to the Delhi Police Crime Branch.
02:10But the CGP has accused the state machinery of targeting opposition voices and using the police and courts to silence
02:18dissent.
02:20The police have been transferred to Narendra Modi's parents.
02:27The police have been transferred to Narendra Modi's parents.
02:28The state machinery has used two children who have been married to Modi's parents, if their parents have been married
02:36to their parents.
02:38So why are they married to Sorovarashun's parents?
02:50The opposition, too, has rallied behind the detained leaders.
03:06We have to be
03:40Meanwhile, a BGP MLA backed Ramlila committee
03:44in Delhi's Pitampura plans to burn a 30-foot cockroach effigy
03:49alongside Ravan, Kumbhakaran and Meghnaad.
03:53The CJP, meanwhile, has thanked the committee for the publicity.
03:59And amid the ongoing protests against the Election Commission,
04:02RSS Chief Mohan Bhagwat has delivered a message of his own.
04:38For now, the CJP says it will hold no protest till Diwali,
04:42even as its two leaders remain behind bars.
04:48Dipke's festive message may signal a pause on the streets,
04:52but the fight for their release continues in court.
04:55And as the opposition seeks Supreme Court intervention,
04:58the question remains, where does the right to protest end
05:02and the right to dissent begin?
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06:20All right, for our debate this evening, joining me, Dr. Saeed Zafar Islam, National Spokesperson,
06:25Bharatiya Janta Patry, former MP, Rajya Sabha.
06:27We also have Anish Gawande, Spokesperson, NCP, Sharad Pawar, Rajat Sethi, Political Analyst, Vijay Reddy Malangi, Spokesperson, the Kaukru Janta
06:36Party.
06:37I'd like to begin here first with Vijay, because Vijay, I want to get you in on an understanding.
06:42What is the next legal course of action that the Kaukru Janta Party is going to take?
06:47Because till yesterday, it seemed you were clear of approaching higher courts.
06:51There seems to be now a duality in that?
06:56We are in the process of approaching the higher courts.
06:59As you can see, what happened at the SEM court was a mockery of justice.
07:02We were denied bail on very stupid grounds, I would say.
07:08And so currently, the lawyers are still pursuing all other legal options that are available.
07:12And we are hoping for their release at the earliest.
07:16All right, so you are approaching the higher court now?
07:20Yes.
07:20That's the plan?
07:21Okay.
07:21And what is the plan, Vijay, in terms of where your protest is concerned?
07:26Because till now, there's been nothing that has been conveyed by Abhijit Dipke at all, other than, of course, solidarity
07:32for both Saurav and Ashutosh.
07:35This is a long haul, Priti.
07:37What we have tried to achieve in the past seven days has completely exposed the government.
07:41And they were completely rattled by the mobilization of the civil society, the political parties, and everybody who is opposing
07:49the vote theft that's been happening in the country.
07:51So we will definitely regroup, re-strategize, and come up with a much more strategic plan as to how to
07:58tackle the government.
08:00And also, for now, it is not just Delhi.
08:03We will also focus on building grassroots mobilization from across the country.
08:06This is not just a Delhi-centric protest.
08:10This is going to be a lot more decentralized now with more ground mobilization, more CADA building.
08:15And then we will regroup and come back as a stronger force.
08:19All right. So there's a sense now, and I want to now expand the debate, at least coming in from
08:23the CJP, that they're going to regroup.
08:24Some are reading it as the CJP on the back foot, understanding that maybe too close to the bone, they've
08:30burnt themselves with two of its top leadership in jail, and, you know, no clarity when they'll be out.
08:37So with the sense coming in from the CJP, they're going back to the drawing board and reorganizing themselves.
08:42That would mean the kind of pressure we've seen built on the national capital by the end of the CJP
08:48might, somewhere down the line, reduce.
08:51I'll bring in Dr. Saeed Zafar Islam, national spokesperson, BJP.
08:54Dr. Islam, you know, it's very often said that when you try and suppress dissent, it only amplifies it.
09:01What legally, even, you know, the biggest legal luminaries can't really wrap their heads around, is how is it that
09:09two individuals who've been taken into preventive custody, who don't have an FIR against them, still find themselves behind bars
09:17in Tihar?
09:18There is no legal explanation for their continuous arrest, of them being in custody.
09:25Well, Priti, Priti ji, I'm not a legal expert, and I won't comment on the proceedings of the legal battle
09:32which the CJP is fighting at the moment.
09:36I'm sure there is, police need their custody, they really want to understand what exactly the motive, who is supporting
09:42them, who is behind them.
09:43And I'm sure there may be, police may be having enough number of questions, and it is important for police
09:49to have their custody, and they should be in the judicial custody.
09:52And they feel, they felt that at least two more days should be there.
09:56So, I think that should be perfectly fine, and the whole of India has supported this initiative.
10:01In fact, many students across the globe have supported the administration, the way it is being dealt, and criticized CJP
10:09because they are working at the behest of some political parties,
10:13and those political parties, and those political parties are being forever deeper.
10:15But Dr Islam, when we make sweeping statements as the whole of India, we don't know, because I think Vijay
10:20and Anish can say the whole of India supported us as well,
10:23which is not true in that case, and which is not true in this case.
10:26The question I ask you, Dr Islam, because many people, and you're right, maybe you don't want to dwell in
10:31on the legal aspect of why they are continuing, you know, to be in custody,
10:35but don't dwell on the political aspect of it for a minute, because to hold them back, many are looking
10:42at this as a possible chilling effect.
10:45Sometimes, history stands testimony, Dr Islam, that chilling effects are counterproductive politically.
10:51No, why do you say that? It is something which they have violated. The peace bond they have signed, they
10:59violated it.
11:00And the consequence of the violation is written the rule of law. So I'm sure that they knew exactly what
11:08they are doing and what will be the consequences.
11:12So they were fully aware, they were fully updated, and they have been told not to violate those conditions which
11:22they have agreed in the peace bond.
11:23Having said that, I think it's a legal process. Let them go through the legal process, and I'm not going
11:29to comment on the legalities because something which I'm not an expert.
11:33But having said that, politically, what I was trying to tell you, that definitely, what was seen during July or
11:43August, when the Wanchuk was on fast,
11:50that time, at least to some extent, it resonated with the common man on the street. But this time, it
11:56didn't resonate at all.
11:58And people do understand that they are working at the base of some political parties, and those political parties are
12:04working at the base of some foreign agencies and foreign forces to destabilize the country.
12:12And I'm sure that, slowly, slowly, everybody will get exposed that what is the support they are getting, who are
12:17supporting them, who are funding them.
12:19All right.
12:19It is important for a nation to know…
12:21Dr. Islam, allow me to come back to you, because you said you didn't want to really touch on the
12:24legal aspect, but you did where you say they violated the peace bond.
12:27You know, if you do look at that legally, despite the fact it was preventive custody that they were taken
12:31under, there is no FIR, there seems to be no legal explanation.
12:35But that is only the legal purview of it.
12:37I want to bring in, because there is a political aspect to it.
12:40There is also an aspect to it in terms of where the protest goes from the banner of the CJP.
12:46And Anish Gawande, it seems, there is, you know, the CJP might not want to admit it, but the CJP
12:53is on a back foot.
12:54This is a setback for the CJP.
12:56You've had now Abhiji Dipke, who's put out a social media post, stating very clearly that for all cockroaches, this
13:05is a festival time.
13:06Take time out, spend with your family till Diwali, no protest.
13:09Which also, of course, gives the CJP to go back to the drawing board and re-strategize.
13:13But a setback, nonetheless.
13:17Preeti, I want to start off by saying that Dr. Islam says slowly, slowly all of this will unravel.
13:22But we're really hoping that it will unravel jaldi, jaldi.
13:26You have a triple engine, Sarkar, the Home Ministry is with you, the IBA is with you, the Income Tax
13:30Department is with you, the ED is with you, the CBI is with you.
13:33If there is a foreign hand, if there is a grand conspiracy, please unearth it.
13:38Otherwise, please refrain from making such wild conspiracy theories come alive on television screens on prime time, because they serve
13:45nobody, right?
13:46Now to come to the legal aspect of it.
13:48Let us be very specific about the legal aspect of it.
13:51The predicate offence is a trespassing offence filed by the same Jantadal United, whose leader, Nitish Kumar, was part of
13:59the JP movement, which was a student's movement.
14:03That predicate offence could have been withdrawn.
14:05The Home Minister could have intervened personally in the matter.
14:08Unfortunately, by washing its hands on the legal matter, the BJP is exposing precisely that it is involved in this
14:15matter, because why else would you keep two young men in Tihar for seven days for trespassing?
14:23I mean, this is the theatre of the absurd.
14:25But history teaches you one thing, Preeti.
14:28When Gandhi marched to Champaran, he marched so under orders to not do so.
14:34By marching, nonetheless, he exposed the hypocrisy of the British state and its inability to be logical.
14:41But history, Anish, also teaches you one thing.
14:44When you bite off more than you can chew, then, you know, you would have to spit it out.
14:49And is that what's happening with the CJP?
14:51And I think, I think the biting off more than you can chew is in the face of a state
14:57that has unleashed unheard of repression.
15:00I mean, what you saw on the 10th of October was not normal in any democracy.
15:04So, if the government of India wants to behave like a Bangladesh or a Pakistan,
15:08the same two models that they accuse of being imported into India, which were military dictatorships in their past, then
15:15it can do so.
15:17You know, I'm going to come right back, Anish, I'm going to come right back with both of Vijay and
15:21where Anish is concerned,
15:21because the fact is, whichever way one might look at it, you might say you're going back to the drawing
15:26board,
15:26re-strategizing, taking a quick break, but many are looking at it as a setback.
15:31And I want to bring in Rajat Sethi into this conversation.
15:34Rajat, the fact is, if, like Dr. Said Zafar Islam say, which quite a few are saying,
15:40that maybe this time around the CJP is not getting in as much traction as it did in Jantar Mantar
15:45protest.
15:46Yet, nothing explains the continuing custody of two of the primary leaders of the CJP.
15:54There is no legal explanation.
15:55Do you think this will also maybe give more empathy and other leads of life?
16:01No, no, I think law doesn't go in rhetoric.
16:05There are clear ways in which the law takes its force.
16:10In this specific case, I believe when the bond was signed,
16:14no kind of public nuisance and anarchy was given as a commitment,
16:18the way even Dipke gave in this very commitment very recently when he was going out in the Tiranga Yatra.
16:24Let me tell you again, you know, they call this court as a court of mockery,
16:30a stupid court or whatever, you know, these glorious words that the CJP has used.
16:35They have actually even dragged the CGI.
16:38They are like, the CGI should resign.
16:40See, first of all, you don't trust the entire legal system of this country.
16:43Then you want to go and seek justice from the same legal institutions because you are bound to.
16:52In one aspect, you want to create, you want to present an image that this is a banana republic,
16:56it is my way or the highway.
16:58I will do whatever the hell I feel like and give no two hoots to the law of this land.
17:02And on the second time when you're actually, you have to meet the law.
17:05And that's when you start, you know, crying over spilled milk.
17:09Because you very well know that there are legal ways in which the government will go after you.
17:13But in spite of that, none of the legal advisors advise them in the right way.
17:18They, when they were signing the bond, either they should have said that, let us go for an arrest.
17:22We will not sign any kind of a bond.
17:24Otherwise, we all know what you do with an executive magistrate.
17:27Also, you know, all kinds of language that is being used and the jargon of anarchy that is presented before
17:34us.
17:35And being compared to Gandhiji's Dandi march and all the other things that he did against the British.
17:40Don't compare the elected democratic government the same as a colonial government.
17:46Because even Baba Saab Ambedkar gave in very clear instructions that the ways and means of protest against the Britishers
17:53are over.
17:54Anarchy is not the solution of a democracy and in a democracy.
17:57So heed to Baba Saab's words and stick to what is legal.
18:01And do not throw out the institutions and start abusing all our institutions.
18:05All right. I'm going to just take final comments. It's a quick, short debate.
18:08And Vijay, to bring you back into this conversation.
18:12You know, in front of you now, you're at crossroads where the CJP is also concerned.
18:18Do you now still go it all alone? Like you said, you're a pressure group.
18:21Do not want to politically at least appear to be aligning with the party.
18:25Because first November is this grand, you know, protest rally in Ramdila Maidan called by the Congress.
18:33Once again, the Congress's call is out to every civil rights group.
18:37That is with them in this fight.
18:40Are you going to join that?
18:41Because it seems Mr. Dipke has made it very clear that at least for the CJP, until the 8th of
18:46November, Diwali, no protest.
18:49Before coming to that question, Preeti, I'd like to ask Mr. Islam, the BJP spokesperson here.
18:55If let's say, for example, hypothetically, if Mr. Nitin Nabin or Amit Shah were arrested,
19:01let's say once their government is out, would he be willing to give their surety?
19:05I suppose he will, right?
19:07So, can he quickly name Mr. Nitin Nabin's mother's name?
19:16Hello?
19:17Am I audible?
19:18Yeah, Vijay.
19:19You're audible, but your voice was breaking.
19:20Yeah.
19:21Make your point quickly.
19:22Can he quickly name Mr. Nitin Nabin's mother's name without looking at the phone?
19:26Can he quickly name Mr. Amit Shah's mother's name?
19:28What are you trying to get to, Vijay?
19:32This is exactly what the SEM had said.
19:34He said the surety doesn't know the parent's name of Saurav.
19:38They were finding all kinds of reasons to deny them the bail.
19:45And this is what you call legal, this is what you call justice.
19:48An ACP rank holder who's sitting at SEM's office has been on call for over three hours.
19:53God knows who he was talking to.
19:55And then finally he asked the surety, what's the name of Saurav's mother?
19:59Okay, I'm asking the BJP spokesperson here, what's the name of Nitin Nabin's mother?
20:04Vijay, the fact is something which Rajat also raised, Neha Bora refused to sign a peace bond, but the CJP
20:10leader signed a peace bond.
20:11So, therefore you're paying the price of what you signed.
20:13This is my voter ID card.
20:14This is my voter ID card.
20:16Is it visible?
20:18Yes, it's visible.
20:19Vijay, very quickly make your point.
20:20Wait, I don't have a mustache or beard on my voter ID card.
20:23Now, that's the exact excuse or reason given by the SEM stating that he has long hair in real life.
20:29Okay, fair point.
20:29You made your point.
20:30Dr. Saitza for Islam, the point raised by Vijay is that the administration is exploiting and bending every rule in
20:41the book to keep these two in jail.
20:44And he gave you examples.
20:46Well, I'm not fully aware of the facts what he has just described.
20:52I think, as I said earlier, about the legal aspects, I am not a legal expert, so I would refrain
21:00from speaking anything about the legal issues, whatever has been highlighted by the CJP spokesperson.
21:08But having said that, these are the issues which Mr. Sethi also highlighted.
21:16That first, which I said earlier, that they had violated certain agreement which they had in terms of the peace
21:23bond when they had signed.
21:24And they were fully aware that if you breach that, if you violate it, the consequences were already told to
21:31them well in advance.
21:33But they chose, and the manner in which they did it, they just wanted to go behind the bar.
21:37So let them be behind the bar, because they knew it, they knew the consequences, they purposely did it.
21:43So I think their sympathy…
21:44We have not reached any peace.
21:45Just a second, just a second Vijay.
21:47Let him finish.
21:48They are not getting any sympathy from any quarter of the country, because they now realise that they were up
21:55to something.
21:56And that is why their attraction is not there.
22:01Whatever soundbites they are giving, that does not resonate with the common man on the street.
22:05Not the student, they speak about the student.
22:08The issues were very different.
22:10Dr. Islam, the jury is out on that.
22:12Just a second, Priti.
22:12You know, yes.
22:14The earlier issues were very different, and that's why they exploited it, because the parents, the teachers, the students, everybody
22:21went together.
22:21I hear that's your point of view, but to club the country, the jury is out on where the country
22:26stands on this.
22:28So, you know, like I said, you could argue it from one side, and Vijay could argue it from one
22:31side.
22:32Just leave it, let's leave it at that.
22:33It's for the people to decide where they want to stand.
22:35Final comments coming in.
22:36I just want to bring in Anish Gawande as well as Rajat Sethi into this conversation.
22:40Vijay, I know you wanted to comment.
22:41I mean, we don't have time, but yes, you made your point that the kind of excuses that we used
22:47to keep these two is, you know, inexplicable.
22:51You know, one doesn't quite understand.
22:52But, Anish Gawande, come in.
22:53I just want you to take a minute and reflect on what is the future of the CJP.
22:56Does it ally with the parties like the Congress coming for the first November rally, or as Abhijit Dipke says,
23:03stays put, heads down till Diwali, and then regroups?
23:08Preeti, I just want to say Dr. Islam comes very well prepared for most other debates.
23:13Today he has come conveniently unprepared on the facts of the matter before the court, which, if narrated as Vijay
23:18has, would point out the theatre of the absurd playing out in front of you, right?
23:22I think the way forward is very simple. We have to wait till Saurav and Ashraf Shah are released.
23:26The government will continue to play delaying tactics.
23:29But with every step that they delay, the people of this country will realize the mockery they have made out
23:34of our institutions like the courtroom.
23:35I think moving forward, it's up for the CJP to decide where it wants to stand in the political aisle.
23:41I think, personally, that maintaining distance from political parties might be in their best interest right now, but also that
23:50political parties might need to step up and ensure safety and security where the government is hell-bent on cracking
23:55down in a manner unlike ever before.
23:57All right, Rajat, final comments, come in.
24:00So, my final unsolicited advice to CJP is that take these two weeks of festivities to reflect.
24:08You had been acting as a pressure group which was working so well because you were genuinely picking up issues
24:13where the evidences of bad school infrastructure and everything was there in the face, and this is why people related
24:21with you.
24:21The problem is you fell into a political agenda and to a political trap of asking for a cancellation of
24:29SIR and resignation of CEC, which goes much beyond your remit, goes much beyond what your movement stood for.
24:36And I think use these two weeks to reflect where you went from.
24:39Okay.
24:39Allow Congress Party to do its politics, but you were acting as a voice for the youth of this country.
24:44Continue doing that. You will serve the country and the youth much better doing that.
24:50All right. You know, we are going to leave it at that, and we are going to keep a keen
24:52eye on all developments.
24:54Tomorrow, once again, there will be a hearing on both Saurav Ranka and Ashutosh.
24:58It's not really about two individuals. It's just about how legally it's coming together.
25:02And on the other hand, the political aspect of it. We'll continue to report on that as well.
25:06We'll continue to report on that as well.