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00:00Did we have a lost connection?
00:03Do we have him again?
00:04We do.
00:05Let's go to the Wise Heart Right.
00:06We make a right call cow right hotline.
00:08Ladies and gentlemen, Anthony Castrovins, MLB.com,
00:12at Castrovins on Twitter.
00:13He joins us right now.
00:14Hello, Anthony.
00:16Hello, guys.
00:17How are you today?
00:18Not good, I got to tell you.
00:20Not very good at all.
00:22The beatings will continue until morale improves.
00:26You know, I'm used to saying that during Brown season,
00:27not here at the end of a Guardian season.
00:30But, you know, maybe calmer heads will prevail,
00:32but today is an emotional day.
00:34And going over last night's game, you know, it's a game six.
00:38I guess I got to go piece by piece.
00:40One, were you surprised that Gavin Williams was not made available yesterday?
00:45I was not, no.
00:47You know, he had a pretty precipitous velocity drop in that last outing on Thursday.
00:54And then to bring him back on short rest,
00:55I just don't think that's fair to the guy.
00:57You know, a young pitcher whose, you know, career is just starting to, you know,
01:03emerge as one of the best starting pitchers in baseball.
01:05I just don't think he could do that.
01:07And also the history of that is pretty sketchy when it comes to bringing back starters on short rest.
01:11So that didn't surprise me as much as maybe actually not giving – maybe it sounds stupid on my end,
01:19but I felt like they should have kept Parker Messick on his, you know, regular turn for a game six
01:25and just take your chances with the bullpen in game five at home.
01:28You know, I'm sure there's people who disagree, but I thought the rain out kind of hurt them in that
01:33sense
01:33and that it gave them that window to bring Messick back on four days rest.
01:37You know, most of the season these guys are on five days rest in this day and age.
01:40And I don't know.
01:41I just felt like he wasn't as sharp, you know, his couple turns in this postseason.
01:46And so that was kind of – it felt like a panic move, to be honest with you, to go
01:51with him there.
01:52But I get they had potentially four games in four days, so you want to be careful with the bullpen.
01:56But there's just a lot of things that puzzled me about the last few games there in terms of the
01:59pitching usage.
02:01A loss is a loss is a loss.
02:02I love that thought.
02:03I mean, they could have rolled the bullpen out and lost game five
02:06and rolled Parker Messick out and lost yesterday.
02:08It still would have been the same reaction and might have given you a better chance, though, to get a
02:11win.
02:12Is there any possibility that – I mean, Gavin Williams has had injuries before.
02:17And you mentioned the loss of velocity.
02:19Complete speculation.
02:21Is there any time we might be wondering about his health as the season and went on,
02:27talking about Gavin Williams?
02:29No, it's not that drastic.
02:32I mean, you always worry about pitchers' health because it's an unnatural thing to do
02:35and these guys get hurt, you know.
02:36But I think it's pretty fair to assume that as a guy goes into uncharted innings territory,
02:43you know, and that guy pitched his butt off and, you know, came out in relief and in game four
02:48of the DS
02:49and turns around two days later and has a historic start in game five of the DS.
02:54And then, you know, he's pitching the ALS.
02:56So it's just a lot.
02:57You ask a lot.
02:59It was such a strange postseason.
03:01You know, this team was the most durable rotation in baseball, the only team with four guys to make 30
03:05starts.
03:07You know, highest percentage of innings from their starters, I think, of the postseason field.
03:11And then one of the lowest percentage of innings from their starters, you know, in the postseason itself.
03:16All of a sudden it was openers and bullpen games.
03:18And, you know, it's just completely not the team we saw for the regular season.
03:23And you see this sometimes where teams start to kind of reinvent the wheel a little bit.
03:28Because the postseason is fundamentally different.
03:30So on some level you have to do that.
03:32But I don't know.
03:33I felt like maybe they got a little too cute and crazy with all that.
03:36But, you know, I feel like game four was so big.
03:40You know, it was managed in a way that at one point they're down two runs.
03:45And it was managed as if they're down ten runs, you know.
03:47And the series all just kind of changed right there.
03:51And, again, that gets me back to game five with Messick.
03:54Because, you know, they didn't really use their high leverage arms in the game four loss.
04:00So, you know, is that the right spot to push Messick there on a shorter rest window than he had
04:07had most of the season?
04:08And when he had shown some, you know, unusual command issues in his previous start.
04:15So, I don't know.
04:15It's the whole thing just kind of those two games at home really.
04:19I mean, it goes without saying that they changed the series.
04:21But I thought their pitching management of those two games changed the series.
04:24Anthony Kastrovitz joined us on the hotline.
04:26I mean, part of, I think, what was on display is the longer a series got against a team like
04:32this,
04:33you saw that your warts will tend to pop up in their strengths eventually over time.
04:38Like, imagine this was just a best of five, how different it is from a best of seven.
04:42And the Rays, you know, finally broke through top of the order,
04:46which didn't look that daunting at the start of the series.
04:48But eventually it gave them enough opportunities and they looked exactly as advertised.
04:54Yeah, the biggest series are seven games for a reason.
04:56And that is absolutely true.
04:58You know, the talent does shine through or has the opportunity to shine through over the course of that amount
05:02of time.
05:02And then the biggest thing in these longer series is just the reliever usage and, you know,
05:08extended looks at guys, multiple looks at guys.
05:10And that's why you have a Cade Smith, you know, appearance like last night where all of a sudden he
05:15is not the Cade Smith we saw
05:16because they have seen him, you know, they've gotten a feel for him.
05:19So, that's just what happens over a long season.
05:22It's going to test the full depth of your roster.
05:25For the most part in the postseason, teams are distilled down to their, you know, their strongest elements,
05:32especially on the pitching side.
05:33But, you know, it's going to catch up to you the deeper you go into a series.
05:36And, you know, I feel like we always have this conversation every year where it's like,
05:41well, that they even got there was a great story and a great achievement.
05:46And it was, no doubt.
05:47But we also, every year we have these conversations where, oh, this would happen or that would happen.
05:51And this one stings more just because of your opponents in this field.
05:56You know, the AL was weaker this year.
05:58These were not, you know, the big juggernaut payroll teams.
06:01You know, these are teams that are the Rays.
06:05And then if you had faced the Brewers, I mean, these are teams that operate like the Guardians.
06:08You know, they're really very similarly structured ball clubs.
06:12And so this was a great opportunity to do something special, something that hasn't been done in 78 years.
06:16And that's why it stings more.
06:17Well, there's been a lot of conversation, you know, just about people and whether or not they should be sad
06:23or excited that it happened.
06:24Do you believe that momentum carries over into next year?
06:29Because a lot of guys are like, this is a great springboard for us next year.
06:32And, you know, with pro sports, you can never be too sure, especially in an uncapped league.
06:36And we're going into something of a, I can't imagine, like, even if they get a cap on the floor,
06:41I don't think that's going to take hold in 2027.
06:44So how does this play out?
06:47Well, I mean, I think there is organizational momentum.
06:49There's no doubt about that.
06:51I mean, look at who kind of raised the floor for them this year.
06:54It was young position players, you know, and that's something we haven't seen here in a while.
06:58Where, you know, DeLauder and Bazana, I mean, these are guys who are potentially cornerstone players for quite a while.
07:04So I feel really good about that.
07:07On the pitching end, you know, what would concern me, I guess, going into next year,
07:10just thinking ahead is the things we were just talking about.
07:13You know, Messick and Williams went to extreme degrees to get where this team got.
07:18And, you know, you could have a hangover effect from that.
07:20And that's actually an area of the farm system that's not as strong as it once was.
07:25You know, we're known as a pitching factory here in Cleveland.
07:27You know, we've seen them churn out, you know, quality arm after quality arm.
07:32But, you know, the well is actually stronger on the position player front now than it is on the pitching
07:36front.
07:36And that's something that Cleveland fans are accustomed to hearing.
07:39But that's just the nature of it right now.
07:41So that's something they're probably going to have to shore up, you know, going into next year.
07:46But, yeah, I mean, it's a really well-run organization.
07:49It's just that, you know, October has obviously not been kind to them.
07:53And this was a different story.
07:55Because usually October is not kind to them because they run into a team that's just fundamentally well-financed and
08:01deep as a result.
08:03This was not that.
08:04I mean, the Rays are deep, don't get me wrong.
08:05But they were deep.
08:07They were built the same way as the Guardians.
08:08And, you know, you had them down 2-1 with two games at home.
08:12And it just let it slip away.
08:14And that's very frustrating for fans and obviously for them as well.
08:18This will probably come off as a loaded question, Ant.
08:21But if they were even more serious about being able to contend when you get deeper into the postseason,
08:29how much more payroll do they honestly need to spend?
08:32You saw the Rays.
08:34What did they pay for Nick Martinez?
08:36Now that's a pitcher.
08:37But, you know, you look at the holes they have on their team that they always have to make up
08:42by development, right?
08:45Guys that are existing in the organization.
08:48If they could just go out and pluck some players within reason, how much money would they have to spend?
08:54Well, that's the thing about we have these conversations about payroll.
08:58And, you know, this team should spend more.
08:59And, yes, they should.
09:00I agree that the Guardians should raise their spending floor on players.
09:04I would counter with two things, though.
09:06One, they spend a great amount of their budget.
09:09I don't know what percentage it is, but I know from looking through media guides that they have, you know,
09:14a fairly large research and development staff.
09:17And that is something that's more stable than investing in players who, you know, get hurt or regress or what
09:24have you.
09:25And the other thing is just the free agent pool itself is pretty thin, generally speaking.
09:30I mean, there are years where, you know, a bunch of players pop at the same time.
09:33But for the most part, I mean, it's slim pickings.
09:36It's for the truly elite players that are those players are going to the big markets.
09:40They're going to the teams with the deepest pockets.
09:42That's that's the trend.
09:44And then so you can absolutely find value in the free agent market, but you have to get it right.
09:49You know, otherwise it just sets you back all the more to spend money for the sake of spending money.
09:53So so I understand why they invest where they invest.
09:57They invest in a stable structure and look where it's gotten them.
10:00You know, it's gotten them to one of the best records in baseball over the last 13 years, despite very
10:07limited resources.
10:08But, you know, I do think there there is a point where, you know, OK, you have the core of
10:15a team and now it's you have to augment it a little more seriously.
10:18I think on the pitching side, this might be an offseason to do that.
10:22Anthony Kastrovitz joining us from MLB dot com.
10:24I don't know how much you've heard about it.
10:26You know, it seems to be something that is brought up anytime the Guardians lost a game in the postseason.
10:32Is there any possibility Stephen Vogt could actually be on the move to a place like Seattle?
10:37I don't know.
10:38You know, and I you can't get an honest answer from him about that.
10:43But I do know just from what I've observed in his time here.
10:47I mean, it kills this guy to be away from his family.
10:49It really does.
10:50You know, his family's out in Washington.
10:52And so from that standpoint, it makes all the sense in the world.
10:55Now he's under contract here.
10:56And, you know, that's complicated.
10:58But we have seen manager trades before.
11:00So I don't rule it out personally.
11:02And that's not not to be reported or aggregated as, you know, Anthony Kastrovitz says the Stephen Vogt is leaving.
11:07It's not that at all.
11:08I'm just saying I don't rule it out just because of the personal, you know, element there.
11:13It's a very real thing to be away from your family for the better part of the baseball season.
11:17But having said all that, you know, they've got a good thing going here.
11:22And it's a great working relationship between Vogt and the front office.
11:25They've had nothing but success since he's gotten here.
11:27He's a two-time manager of the year and, you know, got him back there to the ALCS for the
11:32second time in three years.
11:33I mean, the track record is unbelievable.
11:35And the cohesion is unbelievable.
11:37And Seattle is an attractive situation in some ways, but also not the same situation.
11:42So, yeah, I don't know the answer to your question.
11:46I would just say that I can't possibly rule it out just knowing the personal element.
11:50Forgive me for being ignorant.
11:51Is that pretty standard in Major League Baseball that managers would be away from their families during the season like
11:57that?
11:58Well, he's got young kids, you know, and it's a matter of where they're comfortable, where your family's comfortable.
12:03And, you know, they have a life out there.
12:05You know, they're involved in things.
12:06They're involved in sports.
12:07And it's just a hard thing to uproot your family.
12:09Yeah, Skip has a job out here he has to do.
12:11Uh-oh.
12:12Tone.
12:12But he gets paid very handsomely for him.
12:15Tone.
12:16I get it.
12:16I get it.
12:17I get it on both ends.
12:18You know, I think that, you know, a lot of people in this sport, it's the most demanding schedule of
12:25any sport.
12:25It asks a lot of its participants, and different people handle that different ways.
12:30His family's with him in the summer.
12:31I do know that.
12:32So, but as far as their full-time lives, his full-time life is out in Washington.
12:37Boy, how many of our listeners right now, Anthony, are going, man, I should have been a baseball manager.
12:41I get to spend how much time away from my family and on the road?
12:44That's what psychos say, Anthony.
12:46No, we have a lot of psycho listeners.
12:47Half the season he's with his bench coach, you know, half the season he's with his bench coach in Cleveland,
12:51you know, sharing a house.
12:52So that's, I don't know if that's good or bad, but yeah, you've got the bachelor life and the family
12:55life.
12:57And again, we have a lot of listeners hearing that right now.
13:00Well, they can't be baseball managers, so you move on to the next thing there.
13:03It's like we have one specific host here.
13:05All right, so finally, we know where we think this is all heading when it comes to next season.
13:11So as we're all sitting here going, all right, we saw what it takes.
13:15We know what we need.
13:17And then it's all going to come down to a crashing halt with inactivity across Major League Baseball.
13:24What is the thought process right now for Guardians fans, for baseball fans?
13:30Well, you watch and see how this plays out as the owners, you know, push for a cap and floor
13:34and the players push against it.
13:35And, you know, I know there's a lot of hubbub about this postseason field and this, you know, final four,
13:41as it were, and three low payroll teams, you know, being in the final mix.
13:45It's a historic aberration, unfortunately.
13:48You know, I wish this happened more often.
13:51But the problem is, you know, these teams like the Guardians, like the Brewers, they have sustained success.
13:56They're competitive, especially the Brewers and Guardians are in these central divisions where, you know, that's more forgiving to begin
14:01with.
14:02But as far as going deep in the playoffs, it's very difficult to do.
14:06And this has been, that's why, again, that's why this one stings so much for Cleveland is because this was
14:09a special opportunity.
14:10But, you know, the sustainability of going deep in the postseason year after year is just more difficult on a
14:17lower payroll because, you know, guys get more expensive than arbitration.
14:21And keeping your core together is very difficult.
14:23So, you know, you enjoy these runs for sure, but you also know in the back of your head that,
14:28man, as arbitration hits, you know, there's going to be a lot of pieces moving around.
14:32That's just the nature of things.
14:33So I personally advocate for a cap and floor.
14:36I think it would be actually good for a majority of players.
14:39I think it affects the top 1% to 2% negatively.
14:42And the rest, I actually think it raises the floor for where the actual value is coming from in today's
14:47game, which is, you know, younger talent.
14:48And it gives these teams a fighting chance at keeping a greater portion of that younger talent, you know, in
14:55their prime years.
14:56And it rewards teams for being smart, which, you know, what a concept.
15:02You know, other sports do it.
15:03Why can't baseball?
15:04So I'd like to see it personally.
15:07Anthony, 20 seconds.
15:09Who wins a World Series?
15:11I'm taking the Brewers.
15:12I think it could be a deep series.
15:13I mean, these teams are mirror images of each other.
15:15Neither one's ever won a World Series title.
15:17So that's a really fun element.
15:20So much shared lineage, even in terms of players, you know.
15:23They value the same thing.
15:24So you've got guys who have played on, you know, prominent guys who have played on both teams.
15:28Both LCS MVPs have played for the other team.
15:30I don't know.
15:31I haven't looked yet, but that's got to be pretty unusual.
15:33So, yeah, I think it's going to be a really fun series.
15:36Small ball, 1980s-style baseball, basically.
15:40And I think it goes deep.
15:41I think the Brewers are going to win it.
15:43Anthony Kastrovitz, MLB.com.
15:45Anthony, thank you very much for the time, friend.
15:47Thanks, guys.
15:48He was on the Wise Heart Right.
15:50We make it right.
15:50Call Kyle Wright Hotline.
15:51Follow him on Twitter, at Kastrovitz.
15:53All right, you heard that.
15:54I don't know.
15:56And then he kind of went into it.
15:58I guess we have to talk about Steven Vogt's future.
16:00And if there is one in Cleveland, coming up in five minutes on the fan.