- 2 days ago
Marc Fennell on The Manosphere, Tech Addictions & Defining a "Good Man".
In this episode of Daddies, hosts Rob Stott and Marcus Hurley are joined by TV presenter and journalist Marc Fennell (host of the ABC documentary series The State of Man). Marc opens up about raising a 12-year-old son and a 10-year-old daughter, sharing hilarious and alarming stories about screen-time battles, lockbox-safe cracking, and the time his son hacked hundreds of dollars' worth of Roblox currency.
Together, they
In this episode of Daddies, hosts Rob Stott and Marcus Hurley are joined by TV presenter and journalist Marc Fennell (host of the ABC documentary series The State of Man). Marc opens up about raising a 12-year-old son and a 10-year-old daughter, sharing hilarious and alarming stories about screen-time battles, lockbox-safe cracking, and the time his son hacked hundreds of dollars' worth of Roblox currency.
Together, they
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00My son and his best friend a couple of months ago managed to like use him and another family's
00:05login details to kind of hack into like Roblox and buy a bunch of Roblox money
00:11and the only way we worked it out is we were sitting drunk in their backyard and we both
00:14got credit card notifications at the same time and we're like, that's not the name of the account,
00:18that's not the name of the account and we looked at each other's phones and went, hang on.
00:21Boys!
00:24Hi and welcome back to Daddy's, a podcast about life on the other side of kids.
00:28I'm Rob.
00:29Oh, you did that in the first take.
00:33I'm Marcus and I'm from Man of Many as well and the reason I'm sitting here is because
00:38I'm a father to a gorgeous five-year-old daughter.
00:41What, are you a father, Rob?
00:42I'm a father to a gorgeous four-year-old daughter.
00:44Amazing.
00:44And there's another dad in the room.
00:47Excellent.
00:47Should we throw it to him straight away?
00:48Sure.
00:49Because you know how like, I've said this before but you introduce someone and you give the
00:52CB stuff, let's make him do the CB.
00:55Oh, okay.
00:57You can hear him.
00:58We always do this thing where we don't look at our guests at the beginning.
01:01So let's look at him now.
01:03Mark.
01:03Oh, that was very, that was, that was very full on.
01:07Hello, how are you?
01:08I'm good, mate.
01:08How are you?
01:09I'm also a daddy.
01:12Yeah.
01:13This feels like an intervention.
01:15I'm a daddy.
01:15And the more I keep saying daddy, the more creepy it's sounding of a 12-year-old boy.
01:21Um, they're also gorgeous, but I feel like we over-indexed on gorgeous.
01:25So here I am.
01:26You think so?
01:26Uh, yeah.
01:27I mean, yes.
01:28Because they'll almost definitely watch this.
01:30I'm like, yes, you're gorgeous.
01:31Okay.
01:31Yeah.
01:31I was about to say.
01:32They don't watch everything you do, surely.
01:33God, no.
01:34My kids are.
01:35They don't have time.
01:35They're very selective, actually, with what they watch of my stuff.
01:39Um, and it, I think one of the, they've grown up with me on TV and radio.
01:42So when we're out at the shops, people do like double takes, people want selfies, and
01:46they're so bemused.
01:48They're just like.
01:49Because you're just dad.
01:50I think my eldest, um, my son, he finds it funny now.
01:54Mm-hmm.
01:55But there was a period when they were like in sort of the sort of seven to 10 period,
01:59like eye rolls.
02:01I'm like, can you not eye roll at the public, please?
02:04You.
02:05We're off track already.
02:06Yeah.
02:06Great.
02:07But there, well, at least one of them is about to be a teenager.
02:09Yep.
02:10Are the teen years going to be eye rolly?
02:13Ah, it's going to be sullen.
02:15I know that already.
02:16Yeah, yeah.
02:17It's going to be sullen and it'll be like grunts and, because I've already got a bit
02:21of it.
02:22Um, my, I love my son.
02:23My son's great.
02:24But, uh, like, so what did he do today?
02:26He's duff.
02:27Yeah.
02:27But you remember being a teenager.
02:29Yeah, I was a dick.
02:30I was a complete dick.
02:31You have that period of time where you're like, mum and dad, I want nothing.
02:34Nothing to do with you, but please feed me and make sure.
02:37Oh, no, we're very, we're very close, but there's no actual, like, there's no talking
02:43about feelings or things.
02:44Oh yeah.
02:45Like we talk about, hey dad, I want to buy this thing on Amazon.
02:47Actually, no, it's not even, hey dad, buy this thing.
02:50I sent you a link on Amazon.
02:52I'm like, or even worse, it's like, I need this thing.
02:57I sent you a link, buy it now.
02:59I'm like, can you go to bed?
03:01I will deal with it in the morning.
03:02He's like, no, I need it now.
03:03I need to arrive in the morning.
03:05And like, and I've tried to do the trade thing of like, well, if I buy you the thing
03:09on Amazon, will you tell me what you did today?
03:14I'm willing to trade.
03:16And so far I've gotten sweet.
03:20I was going to say a bad word.
03:21Cashy, yeah.
03:22When we stand on swearing, give us some swear words.
03:26We're only a few minutes in.
03:28All you've done is sledge your kids.
03:31So you've got a while to kind of redeem yourself.
03:34They'll be right.
03:35I'll pay for their lives.
03:36I'll be fine.
03:37Well, yeah, exactly.
03:38Rob, tell me about your week as a father.
03:41Ooh.
03:42Well.
03:42I use the word daddy.
03:43We, uh.
03:44Okay, somehow he made it even weirder.
03:46Like, why are you Darth Vader?
03:47Like, what is that?
03:49You don't know my parenting style.
03:52We had, uh, whoa, we had a, we had a trauma in the house this week.
03:58Like, Billy's, uh, Barbar, stuffed rabbit, number one best friend since she was a child.
04:04Yeah.
04:05Barbar is, is a rabbit in your house, not an elephant?
04:07Like, is it everyone else?
04:08Yeah, no, it's been, so, okay, well, if you want to get the backstory, it's a, it's a, it's a,
04:13it's a, it's a jelly cat, right?
04:14Oh, okay.
04:15Yeah, I've been there.
04:16Very popular.
04:17When my niece, who's now 12, was born, my husband and I got her a jelly cat.
04:22Yeah.
04:22And that's Barbar as well.
04:23And that's been her number one since she was a baby.
04:26So, when Billy was born, Mila, my niece, got Billy her own Barbar.
04:31So, two Barbar's on either side of the world, they're in the UK.
04:34They named Bunny Rolls.
04:35Yeah.
04:35And there's two, it's all very confusing.
04:37It's good, because the two Barbar's live on the opposite side of the world.
04:39Yeah.
04:39Because if they met, the space-time continuum...
04:41The whole universe would collapse in on itself.
04:44Yeah, thank God for that.
04:45This week, Tony's putting Billy to bed, all going fine.
04:48And then suddenly, I hear tears from upstairs, which is unusual, because bedtime's usually pretty easy, because she's ready for
04:54sleep.
04:55And the tears kept going and kept going.
04:58And I thought, okay, I'll go upstairs and see what's going on.
05:00And as I'm walking upstairs, it's not funny.
05:03Billy...
05:04I think we can already tell that it is.
05:06Billy walks out.
05:08Barbar in one hand.
05:10Barbar's leg in the other.
05:11Whole thing just fell off.
05:13So I've been, as soon as you brought up Barbar, I was like, I was sitting on something and I
05:17was acutely aware that I kept on interrupting and ADHD got the better of me.
05:20So I'm just gonna, I'm putting my hand up here.
05:22Yeah, you're making a pledge.
05:22Go on, speak.
05:23How do you not have backup Barbar's?
05:27Like, seriously?
05:28No, but that's the argument of like, if a cat dies, you just replace them with a similar looking cat.
05:32I think they know.
05:33These are mass-produced shy fuckers.
05:36No, you're wrong.
05:36Yeah, but this has had like five years or four years of like wear and tear.
05:39You're so wrong.
05:41There's only, there's only one Barbar.
05:43Please tell our guests how wrong he is.
05:45There's only one Barbar.
05:46Except for the one on the other side of the world.
05:47No.
05:48Well, yeah.
05:50But there's only one.
05:51Your score is falling apart.
05:52There's only one with that specific, unique smell, you know, that like, it's filthy.
05:59You are overestimating your child, my friend.
06:01No.
06:01So anyway, she walks out and it was like, it was truly like the opening scenes of like saving Private
06:07Ryan where they're like carrying limbs around.
06:09She had, yeah, Barbar in one hand, leg in the other.
06:12She was so sad.
06:14She, it was like a death in the family.
06:16She was so, truly, I think we've talked about death on the podcast before because it's a family podcast.
06:24Um, this was like her first experience with true loss.
06:28She was so sad.
06:30Yeah, go on.
06:33Am I just thinking, am I being weak?
06:35I just wonder.
06:37No.
06:37I mean, I was sad.
06:39I was upset.
06:39In a charming way.
06:40I just feel, I don't want to say that Billy was overreacting.
06:43I'm just going to get that off your chin.
06:44Okay.
06:45Okay.
06:46You two are adorable.
06:47Um, bottle this.
06:48It wasn't.
06:49Sell it for him.
06:49We're trying to.
06:51I mean, that's a big reaction.
06:52Sponsor them.
06:53Like to, to, to, to, sorry, sorry, I'll stop, I'll stop, I'll stop.
06:58To liken death to a bunny's.
07:02Well, this, the, the, the cry was from, like, this was not a normal, you know, you can tell the
07:07difference in the cries, right?
07:08Some cries are like basically pretend some are, you know, an ouchie, whatever.
07:12This was a cry from deep in us.
07:15It also happened.
07:16I mean, it happened just before bed.
07:17Oh, she was tired.
07:18The worst timing.
07:18And because we've got a camera in her room and I went back and watched it afterwards.
07:24It literally just dropped off.
07:26The leg just fell off.
07:28So that was going to be my question, which is what, what happened, like, did the, we, did it try
07:33to invade Normandy?
07:34Is that what it is?
07:35That would have been quite clear.
07:36Because that's just, historically, it doesn't end well for people.
07:38Like, if my arm just fell off right now, that would be.
07:40That would be something.
07:41Yeah.
07:41I would think.
07:42No.
07:43Mark would laugh.
07:45That's true.
07:46I would.
07:46I called an ambulance afterwards.
07:49Mid-long.
07:51I've done some repairs on the other leg previously because it was getting a bit loosey-goosey.
07:55Um, but this one, I didn't see it coming.
07:58So you were warned.
08:00I was warned.
08:01You knew that the limbs were on their last legs.
08:02Well, this.
08:02And both very much intended.
08:04So this is a story of your failure.
08:05My neglect.
08:06Yeah.
08:06Anyway, we took it to an alterations place the next day.
08:09And how much did that cost you?
08:10Only 50 bucks for a same-day job, which I thought wasn't bad.
08:12First, alterations place said no.
08:14Wouldn't touch it.
08:15Uh, Mark, tell us about your week in parenting.
08:17Um, my week in parenting.
08:19Okay.
08:19So my children are little crack addicts addicted to technology.
08:22Oh, what?
08:24They're not that little.
08:24But they're definitely crack addicts.
08:26Um, so we have an elaborate system where, um, devices are policed, um, with extreme prejudice.
08:35Um, and what we've gotten in the habit of doing, we literally bought a lockbox that the iPads
08:40and switches and all that have to live in.
08:42The kids have gotten so good at, um, working out the, the, um, the, the code that they're
08:51now even the lockbox is not working.
08:52You've got a couple of little like safe crackers in there.
08:54Yep.
08:55Um, actually my son managed to do this thing.
08:57My son and his best friend a couple of months ago managed to like use him and another family's,
09:02uh, login details to, uh, to kind of hack into like Roblox and buy a bunch of Roblox money.
09:08And the only way we worked it out is we were sitting drunk in their backyard and we both
09:12got credit card notifications at the same time.
09:14And we're like, that's not the name of the account.
09:16That's not the name of the account.
09:17And we looked at each other's phones and went, hang on.
09:19Boys.
09:20And it turns out the two boys had managed to, um, steal hundreds of dollars from us.
09:26Wow.
09:26And the problem I have.
09:28You know the recording.
09:29Yeah.
09:29Oh no, it's fine.
09:30Yeah.
09:30The problem I have is that I was angry.
09:33But impressed?
09:34Yes.
09:34Yeah.
09:34And he can tell.
09:36It's like, I'm 80% angry, 20%.
09:39How did you do it?
09:41It almost seems like a parenting cheat code, like putting a, putting their phones in a
09:45safe.
09:46Yeah.
09:46And then they have to learn how to crack it.
09:49So that's a skill learned.
09:51And then same thing with hacking into worldwide gaming networks.
09:55Yeah.
09:56So what, what are the, my, my favorite discovery this week is, uh, my son had put all the devices
10:01in, in the lockbox, but we've got a new wifi system.
10:05So I can see all the different devices that are accessing the wifi and I'm like, hmm,
10:11there's a device here that shouldn't be accessing the internet.
10:15What he's actually done is he's put the iPad case in the box and it was sandwiched in between
10:21two switches and a laptop.
10:23And I'm like, yeah, I can see the guys.
10:24It's fine.
10:24And he's still, and I, and I opened up the door and he's, he's literally just sitting
10:27there on me like, oh, you worked it out, did you?
10:32As a dad, how do you, do you, like you were impressed with the hacking, like that's impressive
10:38putting an iPad.
10:39It's under, the problem of this deal is it's undeniable that I'm impressed by it.
10:43I'm sort of exasperated by it, but I'm undeniably impressed by it.
10:47The problem is he's now at an age and he's always been, both of them actually are like
10:51this.
10:51They're at an age where everything's negotiable.
10:53And so like, so why is it a problem that I have my device at this time?
10:56It's like, well, cause your brain needs, and I'm fumbling for some dodgy neuroscience.
11:01I'm like, your brain needs time for the, to, um, the synapses and the, um, blue light.
11:08Blue light.
11:09Blue light.
11:10Yeah.
11:10Jumping on the bed.
11:11Easy.
11:11Yeah.
11:12You jump on the bed, you'll fall off and you'll hurt yourself.
11:14Yeah.
11:14Yeah.
11:15I'll try that one next time.
11:15The, um, the, the iPad and the technology thing is more like, oh, well maybe in 15 years
11:21it will have affected your brain.
11:22Yeah.
11:23But he's also like, my wife and I,
11:26we're on our phones constantly.
11:28Right.
11:28And he's like, well, you and your mum would be on your phones until one o'clock in the
11:32morning.
11:32And I'm like, yeah, but it's, whoa.
11:35Yeah.
11:35But I'm a grownup.
11:36He's like, he's like, Instagram's not work.
11:37I'm like, yes, it is.
11:39Yes.
11:40Yes, it is.
11:40It is.
11:41Tell that to my 50,000 followers.
11:44Oh my God.
11:45Oh my God.
11:46It's like, well, that's always been my argument for not letting the kids hold my phone.
11:50I'm like, I do not want them to have a device that has access to like 80,000.
11:53Like just that, that is a recipe.
11:56They do well though.
11:57I think they'd make a lot of money.
11:58Oh, they'd probably, they'd probably get better engagement than anything I'm going to say.
12:00Let's be honest.
12:01But, um, no, this is, this is all in your future, by the way.
12:04Yeah.
12:04Um, be warned.
12:05This is coming.
12:06I'm kind of already there.
12:07And I, in my mind, and look, she's five and she's, her biggest thing is, I need to do
12:13a poo with the iPad.
12:15So every bowel movement she has had, and sorry, Beano, that I'm telling this story.
12:20Every bowel movement that she has had, she has had an iPad in her hand.
12:23To take photo.
12:26Thank you for going.
12:27Cause I was like, how much can I keep taking the child's opinion?
12:30And I'm like, that's fine.
12:31That's fine.
12:32Do a poo, have the iPad.
12:34I'll actually get some fathering stuff done.
12:37But who among us goes to the bathroom and doesn't take their phone?
12:41Like.
12:41You're right though.
12:42She doesn't actually, no, this is wrong because the amount of privacy I get when I've got my
12:46daughter is not great.
12:47Like even this morning, having a shower is just constantly, dad, can you get this?
12:51Yeah.
12:51Can you get that?
12:52Yeah.
12:52So she probably seen me on the phone.
12:55But it's like, we were talking about your kids see you on your phone all the time.
13:00So why can't I?
13:02And then me trying to be a good father, I'm like, okay, when she's on the iPad and I'm
13:06allowed on my phone, but I'll never be on my phone when she's not on a screen.
13:10But then, and then when I am on the phone.
13:13Is that achievable?
13:15It's sometimes.
13:16Sometimes.
13:16And sometimes if I have to message someone, I'll be like, oh, I'm just messaging blah,
13:20blah, blah.
13:20So that she knows what I'm doing.
13:21Oh, that's good.
13:22I don't think it's consistency.
13:24I think it's an impossible thing to achieve with that.
13:28But I think it'll get harder as, well, she's going to school next year.
13:34Aren't they going to be surrounded by screens there?
13:36Well, no, they're cutting back now.
13:37Oh, they?
13:38Yeah.
13:38So in New South Wales in particular, they're trying to cut back the amount of on-screen
13:42learning.
13:43Just like teachers.
13:44So I was at my old high school earlier this week and just talking to.
13:47Did you receive an award or something?
13:48I was giving out awards.
13:49Oh, yeah.
13:49Um, and just the amount, like, of distraction that teachers are facing is off the charts.
13:55And, you know, I could be generationally, uh, like, you know, obnoxious about it and be
14:00like, well, back in my day.
14:01But actually the reality is they're, like, we, our generation is as hooked on these things.
14:06Oh, yeah.
14:06And it's like, who are we to judge teenagers coming up?
14:08And in some ways, they're kind of, uh, like hygiene for the digital hygiene is a term
14:14that gets used.
14:15I don't really understand how that term's come to be used.
14:17In some ways, I think they're better at it because they've been, they've grown up with
14:20it and they've already seen the downsides of it.
14:22We just got hooked.
14:23See, I have a different perspective on that.
14:25I think.
14:25It's a nice way of saying you're wrong.
14:26I think it's a lovely way of saying you're wrong and get out.
14:29My theory is that there's, there's a, there's a very specific age set.
14:33And I think we're probably all in it, who grew up with the internet essentially, but
14:39also remember a time before the internet.
14:41Yes.
14:42And so that allows us, this is a purely made up thing, but I think that allows us to
14:47discern, to kind of have a foot in both camps.
14:50Whereas I think kids today who just grew up cooked by their phones and have never known
14:57anything else are too plugged into it.
14:59What?
15:00Question for the table.
15:01Do you actually care that your kids use screen or is it a guilt thing?
15:06Is it a, oh, society says that, um, I am a bad parent if my kids are on screen all
15:11the
15:11time.
15:11Like what's the issue?
15:14I've become uncomfortable with the amount of time I spend on my phone and I, because
15:20mental health or just lack of useful time.
15:22Well, actually some of it, some of it actually, like I will open up my phone and I'm like 20
15:27minutes later, I'll be like, I have done nothing.
15:30I've, I've like, I've seen 14 different ways of doing bicep curls, 14 different recipes I'm
15:35never going to make.
15:35Yeah.
15:36Um, and I've been sent 18 different ads for different peptides with, you know, uh, like
15:40different brand labels that are non-specific.
15:42I'm like, this is not like, this is, this is garbage.
15:47So I'm aware increasingly that my relationship with it is a bit cooked.
15:52Um, and actually what, what I have noticed is, um, when I take away their devices from
15:58them, it's always an argument.
16:01It's always an argument and actually, and there's a reason for that.
16:04It's basically you're putting yourself into dopamine deficit, right?
16:07So it's that, that, which is addiction like stuff, right?
16:10And so I've recognized my relationship is unhealthy and I'm also seeing that the after
16:16effects of their relationship is, is unhealthy.
16:19I haven't sold it for me though.
16:21No.
16:21And I don't know why I think somehow me forcing their devices out of their hands at six o'clock
16:26at night so we can have dinner is going to go any better.
16:28I need better solutions for that.
16:29Yeah. And you can't exactly have a family meeting and going, all devices are now banned
16:33from this hour to this hour.
16:35Oh no. And people do. I mean, you can literally, I can literally set the wifi in the house so
16:40that the handful of devices that are assigned to the kids doesn't work at all. Like you
16:44can do that stuff and lots of people do. Um, a lot of devices are set to parent locks so
16:50that they, you know, they stop working at a certain point. Um, unfortunately my children
16:54are crack addict geniuses and I've worked their way around most of those issues. Um, and that's
16:59the other thing, just recognizing that, um, the little megalomaniac geniuses that are
17:03probably going to get around most of my solutions. So actually you have to solve it on a human
17:08level, which is so much harder. It's so much harder to deal with.
17:13State of Man, three part documentary series out on the ABC now, soon, depending on when
17:19this episode goes out, uh, you got the idea for the series when you were in your kitchen
17:27making dinner one day.
17:29Well, it's a, it's an interesting one. So we, I'd sort of been aware of the Manosphere
17:33for a while. Right. And we'd been talking about it, this kind of this world of like
17:38online massage, famously Andrew Tate being the most obvious one.
17:41I mean, you don't have to put your hand up.
17:43I'm just following.
17:44Oh, yeah.
17:45I don't want to.
17:46Yes, Marcus.
17:46Hi. Thanks, Mark. Um, what's, give the audience and me and like Manosphere in like, I don't know,
17:54three sentences.
17:54The Manosphere is a very, um, blunt tool for a ecosystem of content creators, uh, online,
18:04particularly man influencers that are, um, redefining what a man looks like, usually orientated
18:11around fitness, money, uh, and women and all negative. No, no, no, no, not all negative.
18:18Uh, a lot of it has some very 1950s era views on how, uh, men should operate in society. Um,
18:27and a lot of it is deeply conservative, like pushing it back to a much older, older idea
18:33of what a man should be. Some of it's just out and out violent rapey. Yeah. Like it's,
18:39some of it's awful. Like it's unrelentingly awful, but there is a spectrum to it. Right.
18:43So I, I think there's a really like hard edge that is kind of really like genuinely misogynistic
18:50and abusive. Uh, I think there's a, a big long spectrum of content before you get to that.
18:54And actually part of why I wanted to do the show and to the, the thing you were setting
18:58me up for before that I've now completely derailed is, um, you know, we were talking
19:01about kids and devices earlier. Right. So, um, there was a period of time where I was like,
19:05yes, you can watch YouTube. Um, but my parent hack was you can watch YouTube on the TV.
19:11Right. And we had this, I had this really interesting thing where, um, I turned it on
19:15kids watching like Minecraft videos, Pokemon videos. I went away and cooked dinner cause
19:19I'm mostly the one that cooks dinner when I'm, when I'm home. I came back 20 minutes
19:23and the screen was literally, literally playing a Joe Rogan clip. Now Joe Rogan is a lot of
19:29things, a lot of different people, arguably the most popular podcaster in the world, but
19:32he's sitting there on my TV screen spouting like, uh, you know, strong men, uh, like spouting
19:40lots of big theories about like what makes a strong man. And I'm like, and I asked the
19:44kids, like, did you guys click on some stuff? And they just let it autoplay. So somehow
19:48with nobody clicking anything, they've gone from Pokemon and Minecraft videos to Joe Rogan
19:53spouting about weak men and you know, weak times.
19:56In how long did that take?
19:5820 minutes. And it's, and at that point I'm like, oh, that's intriguing. Maybe it's
20:02just a quirk of my algorithm. But actually when you look into it, people are, when you set up
20:06an account as a young man on any social media account, they've found, and there's been research
20:10on this all around the world, it can go from set up account to pretty misogynistic content
20:15within as limited as like 20 minutes to half an hour on Instagram and TikTok. And so that point,
20:23the, the starting point for, for us on the team was like, let's set up a burner account.
20:28Let's, so we got a brand new phone. We set up new social media accounts, uh, and as a 20,
20:33uh, 20 something year old guy, like a young guy. Um, and Instagram, TikTok, Facebook,
20:39all the big ones. And the rule was, I am not allowed to click on anything. I'm not allowed
20:45to like or save anything. I just scroll. Within a week I was getting like fairly vanilla workout
20:52stuff, more bicep tips. Um, and then after about a week you get some, like the gender pay gap isn't
20:58real and men should, uh, men should go to work and women should stay home. You start getting like
21:02like basically like relationship stuff. And then after about three weeks, it was full blown,
21:07like racist AI slot. And that's it. That was in about the space of three weeks.
21:12That's great. So it was a really, um, interesting experiment that I thought we were like, I wasn't
21:18quite sure what we were going to get. And we did some things where like, we took it to a
21:21construction site. We took it to an all boys school just so it could bump off them. Again,
21:26the rules still apply, not allowed to click, not allowed to like and save. But very clearly it was,
21:31became clear that that is what the, and one of the biggest things when we talk about technologies,
21:37we talk about the algorithm as this monolithic thing. It's not, it's a very complex
21:40set of machine learning, but that is in effect what the algorithm thinks young Australian men
21:44want. That's what it's giving them. Um, and I, that found, I found that deeply alarming.
21:49Yeah. It sounds alarming. Is that a boys, are they going looking for this stuff?
21:57Well, one of the things we did was we went to go to find a bunch of young guys who
22:02by their own
22:02admission had been sucked into their version of the manosphere. And I'm always very careful to talk
22:06about it because I say the manosphere isn't as a monolithic thing. It is an ecosystem of content.
22:12A handful of young guys, um, interestingly, most of them from Melbourne and a lot of their
22:17consumption started in COVID. Remembering also Melbourne had the most full on lockdowns of
22:22anywhere in the country. A lot of them really got stuck in, they'd had a bad breakup, they were lonely,
22:29a lot of time with their phones, and that's when the content found there. And so some, I think,
22:34I think some people, when you're a young guy going online, you're looking for stuff, you know, what
22:41makes, you're not necessarily looking for what makes a man, but often young guys are looking for,
22:45when we joked about it, like, you know, fitness content, dating content, like, and money. Money is
22:51a huge one. Huge content about like so much get rich quick, so much crypto, NFT, like all that kind
22:57of
22:57stuff. A lot of that stuff, this is stuff that young guys are interested in anyway. Like, let's be
23:03real. Like, you guys, like, what are the stuff that people come to you for? It's like, how do I
23:07look
23:07good? Yeah. How do I feel good? Right? Like, what are the markers of success and status? Like,
23:12So it's an innocent kind of searching of, like you mentioned, heartbreakers, like, oh,
23:16why didn't this girl like me? Or how do I make girls like me? Or how do I get biceps
23:20or legs like
23:21Mark or Marcus? Like, it's... Or a winning personality. Yeah. Yes.
23:25Yeah. Personality. We'll talk about that. I've seen the Speedo Picks, by the way. I mean, you are,
23:32you are... You are... You are undersailing it.
23:35No, we flash it. Let's not go there. But it's innocent.
23:39And now we're all turning red. Except for Marcus who's really fine with it.
23:42Yeah, I'm fine. Um... There's a reason the show's called Daddies.
23:44It's innocent. What did you say?
23:47What did you say? I said there's a reason the show's called Daddies.
23:50I'm fine. Me, of all people.
23:53I want the record to reflect Marcus is doing great. You're the only professional
23:57No one said no one said no one.
24:02It's a touchy subject.
24:04But it's innocent, right?
24:06Like, they're just trying to go.
24:08The top of the funnel.
24:09Yeah.
24:09How do I, how do I be cool or whatever it be?
24:12And the algorithm does the algorithm, answers that.
24:16My question is, just to bring it back to daddies and being a dad,
24:21like, we can let the algorithm kind of guide them,
24:25and obviously it takes them to where State of Man kind of,
24:29the content that covers.
24:30But as a father raising a boy, and you've spoken about take the iPad
24:38off him or whatever it might be, like, what pressure or what do you feel
24:43you can do, should do, what do you want to do to kind of guide your son?
24:47There is a limited set of tools available to us to control the technology.
24:55Right?
24:55So, certainly there's pressure you can apply on social media companies.
24:59We can, you know, point out content creators doing cook stuff.
25:03We can do that, but it's a bit whack-a-mole in my personal opinion.
25:06What you can manage, though, is the relationships you have in the house.
25:11And actually, one of the things that I found was most important is actually,
25:14like, a third person.
25:15So, like, not a parent, not a teacher, but, like, another male figure in their life.
25:19So, it could be a sporting coach, could be a Taekwondo instructor,
25:23could be a youth leader if you're religious.
25:25There's a whole bunch of, like, those are really important factors
25:29that have a big impact.
25:30Yeah, like a real-life person.
25:31An actual real-life person.
25:34Everyone hates the term role model because it's a bit cringe,
25:37but, like, those people matter.
25:38What you can control, though, is your relationship at home, right?
25:43And so, I think it's actually become more, because I can't, like,
25:47I occasionally, you know, will look at their search history
25:51and things like that.
25:52With them, my rule is I will never, ever, I will never, ever look
25:55at your search history without you being there.
25:57I think that that is a recipe for distrust.
25:59It's a recipe for height.
26:00So, my rule is, like, every once in a while, we will do it together.
26:03We will look at it.
26:05Um, and it's always, like, you know, streamers being, like, bro,
26:09and I'm, like, this is so boring.
26:11Um, but, but I think what you can control is, is your relationship
26:17with them, and I think we have to become more mindful about that role
26:23as a parent in terms of modelling, because I'm, like, really resisting
26:26the term role model, modelling what you think a good man should be.
26:30I'm also at pace to point out, people often ask me about,
26:33that why I did this series in relation to being a dad of a boy.
26:37It's just as important, if not more important, for my daughter.
26:41Yeah.
26:41Right?
26:41Because the manosphere, you know, it's targeting young boys
26:45and young men, but those men interact with women.
26:49And if we, if we, if we do accept the premise that men are in
26:52some form of crisis, if 50% of the population's in crisis
26:55and the other 50%'s in danger.
26:57Yeah.
26:57Right?
26:57So this does affect all of us.
26:59And so I'm as much interested in this for, you know, my son
27:03and, and, and the men around me, but I'm just as interested
27:05in the impact that it has on girls and women.
27:07And I think one of the mistakes that's been made with series
27:10about the manosphere and documentaries about manosphere
27:12is it doesn't focus on, it doesn't at least acknowledge the fact
27:14that ultimately this affects women.
27:17Right?
27:17By and large, it affects how they're being treated in schoolyards,
27:20as teachers, in the dating apps, like all of that stuff.
27:23That's where it's going.
27:25So I think it kind of, it matters to me for both of them.
27:28And it matters to me for my male mates and my female mates.
27:31It's like, what the impact of this worldview, and it's invisible.
27:36Right?
27:36You know, we talked about our relationships with our phone before.
27:38The thing about phones is that this thing's shaping your mind.
27:42It's shaping your worldview.
27:42It becomes your window on the world.
27:44And I can't see what's in your algorithm, and you can't see
27:47what's in my algorithm, although we all agree that bicep tips
27:49are in there for both of us.
27:50And I think the fact of the matter is, if this thing's changing
27:53our world and we have no transparency, we have no visibility
27:56on how that algorithm is changing us, that's a problem.
28:00Because suddenly, you'll be talking to a person you think
28:02is totally normal, and then they'll say something fully cooked.
28:05And then you'll be like, where the shit did that come from?
28:08And the answer will be, because the internet decided
28:11that's what you're going to see.
28:12And I think, you know, I'm not a Luddite.
28:14I'm all for the internet.
28:15I'm addicted to the internet.
28:16But I do think it's a black box, and it owes us, like,
28:21the internet owes us some transparency.
28:23Because if it's going to fundamentally change our minds
28:26and fundamentally change how we view each other,
28:28how we view our bodies, sex, money, like,
28:31these are the fleshy things, right?
28:33I think we should be applying some transparency to that
28:35and asking, like, who's profiting from that?
28:38Who's getting money from that?
28:39And I think that's kind of the underlying message,
28:41which is, like, let's look at that box.
28:43Let's open up that box and go, why is it serving us these messages
28:48and who does that ultimately serve?
28:52It feels like such a big problem.
28:54Like, it's one of those problems.
28:55Oh, it's huge.
28:56That is so, the scale of it is so enormous,
28:59and it's so hard to even know where to begin
29:01that I don't know where to begin.
29:02That's where we were, too.
29:04So, Mel, the director, and I, I think we were talking about it for ages,
29:08and I think it was only when I actually kind of,
29:10when I was pitching the show to the ABC,
29:12I kind of dropped this anecdote about exactly what you mentioned before,
29:16where, like, we've played YouTube,
29:18and it went from Pokemon to Joe Rogan in 20 minutes.
29:21And I think in that moment, Mel was the one who was like,
29:23that's it, that's the pathway.
29:24Because I hadn't really identified that was, like, an origin story.
29:27I was like, oh, yeah, no, that completely makes, that is,
29:30and you're right, but the problem,
29:31and the reason it actually took so long to get a Manosphere doc of this kind made
29:36was because it is, it's amorphous, it's big, it's an ecosystem,
29:39it's hard to work out a pathway through it.
29:42And actually, the burner foam became the way we found a pathway through it.
29:46It became my reason for going to talk to Facebook,
29:49my reason to talk to content creators, my reason to go into schools.
29:52It kind of ended up driving the story.
29:55The other thing is that it actually became really apparent
29:59that there's, you know, plenty of material and think pieces
30:02about the Manosphere.
30:04Very, not enough of them were dealing with, like,
30:07sorry, so how do we deal with this problem?
30:09And I was like, I absolutely, Mel and I, like,
30:11absolutely refused to make a documentary about the Manosphere
30:14unless we gave something useful.
30:17Yeah.
30:17Like, these are ways you can navigate it.
30:19And you're right, it's big and it's complicated,
30:21and there is no smoking gun.
30:23There's no, like, one piece of legislation.
30:25There's no lock everyone's boxes in a phone.
30:27It's not that simple.
30:29There's going to be a suite of different things we can do
30:32to navigate this worldview.
30:34And in some ways, I view that as empowering
30:36because it actually means that we all get to play a part.
30:39You know, like, we all get to have, you know,
30:43we all have a piece of the solution with us.
30:46And I actually view that as empowering rather than overwhelming
30:51because I have to think that there's supposed to be something, right?
30:55There has to be something we can do.
30:56And so, I mean, there's a lot to take in there,
31:00and I admit, like, it's scary, right?
31:01Because my experience with my daughter has been,
31:05like, I can always see or hear what she's watching,
31:08whether she's on the toilet or on the couch,
31:11what she's watching on YouTube.
31:12And there's been moments where I've been like,
31:14oh, I don't like the sound of that.
31:15And I will express that to her, and she'll be like,
31:18okay, next one.
31:20Excuse me.
31:20But, I mean, you're talking about being empowered by the fact that,
31:24okay, what can we actually do?
31:26In our own homes and you as a dad, what's your idea of a good man
31:32and a good dad?
31:34And what do you think?
31:36Okay, we're fathers of daughters,
31:39and we're not quite at the stage where they're interacting with males
31:43in that kind of romantic or teasing kind of environment.
31:50What is it that you want to do as a dad,
31:54like, in your own home where you can control it?
31:57And what is it that we can kind of do as daughter dads to kind of go,
32:03okay, like, because I don't want to warn my daughter of men are scary.
32:07Well, no one wants to do that, right?
32:09And I think it's interesting.
32:11So, we had a guy by the name of Billy Garvey on the show,
32:14who's an amazing parenting expert, who you two would love, by the way.
32:17Okay.
32:19Billy told me something I hadn't really considered before,
32:21which was actually, like, even from birth,
32:23the way we treat boys and the way we treat girls is completely different.
32:28Like, we tend to hold boys out a little bit more.
32:30They have less, they look out at the world,
32:33whereas girls, we tend to hold in more, we give them more reciprocity.
32:37Even language like, he's just being a boy,
32:39that is, in some ways, it's permissive.
32:41It lets boys get away with certain things,
32:43but it also doesn't do them any favours in terms of bringing them into a solution,
32:48treating them with, you know, with care,
32:49so that they sort of start to learn that problems can be solved relationally
32:53rather than with conflict.
32:54Also, just a recognition that boys and girls are,
32:56they are, in broad brushstrokes, different.
33:01Certainly, every child is their own.
33:02There's, like, there's a spectrum, obviously.
33:04But I think just a recognition that there are some things that we as a society,
33:09rightly or wrongly, have emerged that we're doing differently with boys and girls.
33:12And I think there's lots of really good work being done at the moment
33:17about how we raise boys to kind of counteract some of those influences
33:23that they will inevitably find.
33:25I do think, you know, when it comes to, like, teenage girls and boys,
33:29like, I was, it's interesting, I was at my old high school the other day
33:33and it was really fascinating.
33:34It was quite a weird trip to be here in high school.
33:37And I was just...
33:37Did the room seem smaller?
33:40My old high school is completely rebuilt.
33:42Oh, yeah.
33:43There is, there is, there was, when I went there,
33:45there was a bunch of demountables.
33:46Now they're like, oh, my God, you've got buildings.
33:48Oh, shit.
33:49Oh, bricks.
33:49What, you've got air conditioning?
33:51What?
33:51Um, but I think what was, like, really interesting is, like,
33:56the, what the boys and the girls wanted to talk to me about
33:59were completely different things.
34:01Um, and I was just struck by how they were actually at that age,
34:05as teenagers, they are, they're massive, massive, um,
34:08difference in interest, different desires.
34:10What were the differences?
34:11Well, in terms of, like, well, I was there to talk as an ex-student,
34:13so the, the, the girls just wanted to talk about famous people
34:19that I'd interview.
34:19Great.
34:20By and large.
34:20Cool.
34:20Yep.
34:21Uh, the boys just wanted to know how much I bench.
34:25Answers to both, please?
34:26I, well, I'm, I've interviewed Tom Cruise, Will Smith,
34:30Jennifer Lawrence, some of the biggest names in the world.
34:32All right, how much do you bench?
34:32I don't really bench.
34:36What did you make up in response to the boys' question?
34:38No, I was very honest with them.
34:39Like, I, I'll do, I, I do mostly machine stuff,
34:42so I was doing incline, decline, and fly, and then,
34:44and then they wanted, and then they, and then they wanted to know,
34:48then they wanted to know, uh, like,
34:50what's your split?
34:52And I was like, it was, it, and I was like, I'm happy to talk about this,
34:54because it's like, if that's what you're interested in, I'll talk about it,
34:56but I was just blown away in the moment.
34:58Like, you are, like, different species right now.
35:01It was really intriguing.
35:02But that, like, what's your split, or what do you bench?
35:04Yeah.
35:05That is the top of the funnel for, like, that, that's a,
35:07there's a fork in the road there, right?
35:08Where you can have a, uh, a healthy relationship with fitness and working out,
35:13or it can be, like, this vehicle towards something much more toxic.
35:16Completely.
35:16And it was, like, it was very, it was very funny to me,
35:19because there's now a world of content creators that are now actively trying to do,
35:23like, fitness content that's not, like, low-key doorway to the manosphere.
35:26And I think that's really exciting.
35:28And one of the things I'm sort of at pains to point out is, like,
35:30yes, there is a problem.
35:31There is a world of online manospheres telling men that to, to be a real man,
35:37you have to be, you know, strong-watering on violent.
35:40You have to be, you know, dominating in, in work and in relationships.
35:44But there's also a world of content creators out there who are really new,
35:49putting nuance on that message and finding different ways of communicating.
35:52And I think, uh, it's important to recognize that it is a living organism
35:57and we can shift it.
35:58You know, there's already people working on shifting it,
36:00and that is an option that is available.
36:01We, that reminds me, we did a bit of research at Man of Many
36:05at the start of the year called the Male Confidence Index.
36:07Check it out, manofmany.com.
36:09Great plugs.
36:10Yes, thank you very much.
36:11I will.
36:12That's why I'm the editor-in-chief.
36:14One of the really interesting findings to come out of that, though,
36:18was, uh, that men and women have completely different views
36:23of what women actually look for in a man.
36:25Yeah.
36:25So, we spoke to, we worked with a research company.
36:28It was a, you know, proper scientific study.
36:29We spoke to mostly men and, but lots of women as well, more than a, more than a thousand
36:35in total.
36:37And when you asked men, what do women want?
36:39They said strength, protection, leadership, you know, all these like traditionally masculine
36:45kind of traits.
36:46No, that's what men want.
36:47That's what men want.
36:48All the women said empathy, understanding, communication.
36:52That's not what the manosphere is telling them at all, though, right?
36:55No.
36:55And it's, I mean, manosphere is a generic statement, but like it's wrong.
36:59I think all of those things can, are not mutually exclusive, by the way.
37:04Like you can be strong and empathetic.
37:05Yes, absolutely.
37:06And I think there's a room for both of those things.
37:09I did this incredibly weird thing where I was in Las Vegas and we were, um.
37:14Weird things just didn't happen.
37:16This, as, as weird things in Las Vegas go, this one was not on my bingo card.
37:19So, there's this guy who is like one of the originators of, of the manosphere world.
37:24He's the guy that kind of coined the red pill theory that like, you know, uh, the, the dating
37:29market is stacked against men and you have to dominate in order to, to, and to, to win
37:34women and it's all, it's that, he, he kind of originated a lot of that idea and I went
37:38on his podcast, um, and their podcast is the strangest thing ever.
37:44And so it's these two guys who are like, one's a dating coach, one's the, you know, the think,
37:49the thought leader of the manosphere space and they surround themselves with women.
37:53Um, and they're all, because it's Vegas, they're all sort of content creators and they're
37:56all like, you know, obviously very hot, beautiful.
37:58Um, and it's basically like, do you remember the old daytime TV show, Beauty and the Beast?
38:03Loved it.
38:03It's kind of, it's, it's kind of that, but with a very Vegas twinge, right?
38:08And so it's just, it's, and they live stream it to YouTube, um, and they, and it's all,
38:13it's like a little bit Jerry Springer in the sense that like, it's really there for the,
38:17the heat, not the light, you know what I mean?
38:19Um, anyway, the, the, he, the, the guys are sort of throwing out that, you know, um, dating,
38:26dating ideas and the girls kind of shoot them back.
38:28And it was the weirdest thing because like, he's asking them, so what do you, what do you
38:32the girls want? Do you want like empathy or do you want strong?
38:35And the girls were like, we want empathy.
38:36But then he would tie them in a knot basically.
38:39And I, it was weird to watch cause obviously the, everyone's in on it.
38:42Everyone's happy.
38:43They all went out to dinner afterwards.
38:44Like there's no, but it was all theater.
38:47Yeah.
38:47Right.
38:47It was all theater.
38:48There's nothing wrong with that inherently, but I was like, this is still going to change
38:53somebody's mind out there.
38:54And just cause you guys all get on and go get barbecue afterwards, doesn't necessarily
38:57mean that this, these ideas don't, you know, percolate in the mind of a 14 year old somewhere.
39:02You can see why it's so confusing for young men to go, well, what is it, what is it that
39:07women want?
39:08How is it that I get, like, what kind of body do you, do you want a peptide related one?
39:11Or do you want like a slim running, like I, are those my only options or, yeah.
39:17I get a high rocks one or I get a, yeah, yeah.
39:20And it's like, I remember being a teenager.
39:23We will be teenage boys here.
39:24I think.
39:25Yes.
39:26I love that you felt the day to do that.
39:27And it was, well, you never know.
39:29Yeah.
39:29Modern world.
39:31So I remember being a, like when I was a teenager, not the best looking guy in the
39:36world.
39:36And so I didn't have an issue with why don't girls like me, but I imagine that.
39:41Cause I'm sorry.
39:42I'm sorry.
39:44Can you just look down the barrel of the camera?
39:47Those eyes, that chin.
39:51I'm sorry, but like, are we really pretending like he wasn't born out of, came out of the
39:55box as Kendall?
39:56Sometimes the most beautiful men could be, you know, buck tooth little freaks when they
39:59were at school.
40:00I was a buck tooth little freak.
40:01See, there you go.
40:02I mean, photos or it didn't fucking happen.
40:05My Nana once said that I had really nice lips and that any girl would be lucky to kiss
40:09them.
40:09Which you're weird.
40:15But I think it was because I had really dry lips and I went really red.
40:18Um, I haven't said that story.
40:20What are we talking about?
40:22No, I can see why it's so hard for teenagers now with all of that influence with the phone.
40:29Stop laughing cause I'm trying to bring it back to seriousness.
40:31No, no, you're doing great.
40:32Yeah, thanks man.
40:33Um, whereas we didn't have that.
40:34Like we had, we probably had role models, sorry to use that word, um, growing up.
40:40Yep.
40:40But we didn't have screens that pretty much, we can go make me a better person and it will
40:45just serve you with all the things.
40:46Um, I have a point, but I can't remember what it was.
40:51No, that, that was a point.
40:52That was a point.
40:53That was a point.
40:54I think, like, I think there's nothing wrong and, and not, there's absolutely nothing wrong
41:01with young guys going online trying to work out how to be mad.
41:03Um, the problem is what the internet comes back at them with for answers.
41:09Um, and increasingly over the last half decade, we've seen the sorts of answers that boys find
41:16when they go online are deeply cool.
41:19Right.
41:19And it's the fact that those relationships, um, those views have been allowed to kind of
41:24grow and develop largely unseen until they, they burst out, um, in, you know, in relationships,
41:31in the classroom, in people's attitudes at the ballot box.
41:35Like there's a, there's a kind of that, those attitudes, I think for a lot of people, I
41:41think they feel like they, they snuck up on them unless you were getting it in your feed.
41:45It would have felt new to you.
41:46I remember one of the things I like doing is like, I like overhearing conversations at
41:50the gym, right?
41:51I like just, cause there's like lots of young guys come in and they'll be on that one machine
41:55in a pack forever and no one can use it.
41:58Yeah.
41:58And use machines and, oh, sorry.
42:00All right.
42:01Sorry, Mark.
42:02You're giving hierarchs energy.
42:03F45.
42:04F45.
42:04People do F45.
42:05I used to do F45.
42:06Yeah.
42:06Cool.
42:08There's no time to have conversations at F45.
42:10Let me tell you.
42:11Yeah, that's true.
42:12And I like listening to the conversations and listening to them and be like, bro, she
42:16said what?
42:16She showed me that.
42:17Like, and I like just listening to the way they talk.
42:19And it was really interesting over the last kind of five or six years, the conversations
42:22I would overhear about their own bodies.
42:25It's not big enough, man.
42:26It's not big enough.
42:36It's not big enough about their relationships.
42:56Hey, I just can never be big enough.
42:58I'm going to need an injection.
43:00Now, I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with, you know, the suite of options
43:06that are available to improve your body.
43:08You know, there's nothing inherently wrong that those things exist.
43:12But the fact that it's become so normalized and the standard for what an acceptable body
43:17is for not all guys, but for a lot of guys is now something that you cannot attain.
43:21Yeah, it's perfectionism, right?
43:22And, you know, content creators, a lot of the content creators you're seeing with these
43:25amazing bodies, they're not doing it.
43:29They're not playing on a level playing field with you.
43:31They're doing it with a lot of support, with a lot of chemical stuff that until recently
43:37was not available to lots of people.
43:39And I think on a very fundamental level, the biggest thing that I've noticed is that
43:45the shape of normal has shifted, right?
43:48And it's a body that you can only attain with, you know, a lot of money in some cases.
43:53Again, nothing inherently wrong with that.
43:54If you want to, like, look like a bodybuilder, I'm all for it.
43:59Like, absolutely all for it.
44:00Mad for it.
44:00But it's the fact that, like, if you're not that, you're less than.
44:04Well, yeah.
44:04That's, I think, it's like with celebrities, like, I'll say Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise.
44:08Tom Cruise has a weird body, but that's fine.
44:10Sorry, Tom Cruise.
44:11But, like, before, like, the algorithm yelled at us, we'd watch movies and go,
44:16oh, I need to look like that with my shirt off because that's what women want.
44:20Yeah.
44:20And want.
44:21Um, and now it's kind of, like you're saying, it's drifted towards perfectionism.
44:27It's possibly unattainable.
44:29Um.
44:30I'm going to bring it back to you.
44:32Sure.
44:32And say, take your, no, um, when you're at home and with the ideas of perfectionism
44:39kind of being thrown at your children's, uh, face through screens, have you ever been in
44:45a situation where you've shown them vulnerability, emotional kind of open, like, what's.
44:53I could probably be better, to be fair.
44:55Like, there's no shortage of emotions in my house.
44:58Everyone has very big emotions.
45:00I'm probably the least emotional person, but I like, the thing I like doing is I like,
45:07I, when something goes wrong and we have an argument and I, everyone loses their shit
45:11in my house.
45:11I'm not saying I somehow don't.
45:13But one of the things I do like doing that everyone else finds deeply annoying is I'm like,
45:17and we're going to sit down and we're going to talk about it.
45:20We're going to talk about our feelings and I'm going to de-escalate the shit out of this
45:23until you are all unconscious.
45:25Does it work?
45:26Sometimes.
45:27Oh, actually, no, it does.
45:28Actually, no, no, it, it actually does work.
45:30But I'm, I'm all for the talk it out.
45:32Um, to the point that everyone in my house kind of hates it.
45:34And I, I'm hoping that works as a deterrent.
45:36Like, I don't want to talk this out, so I'll just sort it out myself.
45:39I will make us talk about this until it's solved.
45:42Um, I've got a tip someone told me the other day.
45:44When you're having a fight with your partner or with your kid, you make an agreement that
45:48you're going to continue the fight, sure.
45:50But you lie down head to head and you continue.
45:54And apparently it is quite impossible to continue being angry at each other or irritated as you're
45:59lying down next to each other.
46:01Maybe it doesn't work in bed because I've definitely had arguments in bed, but, um.
46:06Why are you laughing?
46:07I'm just visualizing it.
46:09I mean, you know what?
46:10I'm going to try.
46:10Yeah.
46:11I get it.
46:12I get it.
46:12Yeah.
46:12But I think it is like, I am on board with the kind of bring everyone together and communicate
46:17because I think communication is one of my key values, I suppose.
46:20And I'm trying to instill that in Beano in terms of, I guess she started doing this amazing
46:27thing going, hey, can I tell you something?
46:29Yeah.
46:29Which I feel like is a big tick in the dad box for like, oh, she's willing to kind of
46:34talk to me.
46:35But I think I'm not afraid, but I'm aware that as she grows up and becomes a teenager,
46:41there will be days where she's slamming doors in my face.
46:43Um, and so hopefully I can build a relationship, which means she'll slam the door, but then
46:50eventually we might be able to.
46:52Can I just tell you something that, that will, will happen to both of you.
46:56I'm like ancient Oracle mark.
46:58I'm like 20 minutes older than you two.
47:00Um, one thing I've realized, and it's, it's taken me a while to realize that is, um, we
47:06get used to measuring success in relationships with the like D and M time.
47:11Like we sat down, we talked about it.
47:13We expressed our feelings and that was, and that was success.
47:16One of the things I've had to get comfortable with is the idea that simply being present
47:20with each other while you're doing life, but them knowing that you're always, that you're
47:24there, um, that it doesn't always have to turn into a DM that you care, you're paying
47:32attention to their emotions, whether they want to talk about it or not is its own success.
47:37Um, cause I'm, I've got kids at an age now where like you, you know, if something, something
47:42will blow up and then we can talk about our feelings, their ability to convey what they're
47:46feeling, why they're feeling that they're like, why are we crying over me taking the
47:50switch away from you?
47:51Do you know?
47:51Cause I don't fucking know.
47:53Like that gets more complicated cause they are, they actually do struggle to explain why they're
47:57feeling what they're feeling.
47:59Um, despite my many years of making them do DMs, you as a parent have to get comfortable with the
48:04fact that, um, DM and DM is not always going to be the mark, a achievable, but it's not always
48:11going to be the ultimate marker of success.
48:13Sometimes you're going to have to settle for, we were just there and that was good.
48:16Uh, we were there together.
48:18We sat in silence and stared at the ceiling and they, they, they knew that they were safe
48:23in that moment.
48:23And that is what matters right now.
48:25So your bar of what success is going to feel like is going to change.
48:28Yeah.
48:28So by the way, how old are you two?
48:3137.
48:32He's 37.
48:32I'm older than you.
48:33How old are you?
48:34I'm 39.
48:35Okay.
48:35Well I'm 41.
48:35So I'm an interest.
48:36There we go.
48:37Um, no, and that will, we'll finish up soon, but maybe you will be released.
48:44Like the crack in upon the world.
48:46Sit down.
48:47Well, it is that thing when like, um, say someone comes to you and they want to bitch about
48:50work or a partner or whatever it might be.
48:53I've gotten into a habit of, and I don't always, but it's like, do you want me to listen or
48:58do you want me to like be a yes man or do you want advice?
49:01And I think just giving them that option goes, it's like, I'd write, just give me a hug.
49:06Like I don't want to hug or I want to.
49:08Sometimes people do not want advice.
49:10Yes.
49:11Sometimes people just want to vent.
49:12Yeah.
49:12And I think we probably default to giving advice.
49:16Yes.
49:16I think, I think men in, again, men in particular.
49:21Mansplainers.
49:21Well, yeah, I think a lot of some, like mansplaining is obviously a real thing, but I think some
49:25of the root of mansplaining is, is a little bit about you've told me a thing and I instantly
49:30want to solve it.
49:31Um, and that's often not what people want.
49:35Like I think, um, you know, it comes from a good place.
49:38Look, it can do.
49:39I think, I think some mansplaining is just obnoxious and I think some man, some mansplaining
49:42does come from a good place and I think he's misunderstood.
49:44Some of it, again, spectrum talking in broad broad strokes here, do not come at me.
49:48Um, I, I think it can come from different places, but I think it's recognizing exactly
49:53what you're doing.
49:54It's like when somebody comes to you with a thing, do they just want to be heard?
49:56Do they just want to be told that they just want to be validated or do they want you to
50:03actually solve their problem?
50:04And I think part of emotional intelligence is kind of reading it and working it out.
50:07Like what, and, and also sometimes you can move from a solid 20 minutes of like, well,
50:12that fucking sucks.
50:12I'm sorry.
50:13You know what?
50:13They are a bitch like, you know, like whatever it is.
50:16Um, and you just want to start with that and then maybe when the tone shifts, you can
50:24shift it over later.
50:25Yeah.
50:25But I think it's a hard thing to work out.
50:27And I think sometimes the first response can be like, we can solve this problem.
50:31And it's like, that's not what people want sometimes.
50:33It's just not.
50:34Oh, beautiful.
50:36Well, we've solved everything.
50:39Did we?
50:40We discussed a lot.
50:41No, we've, we've had some real nuggets of, um, truth and gold.
50:45Um, here's the closing question for you.
50:48Are you ready for this?
50:49Mark, for Nell, not fennel.
50:52No.
50:52No, never fennel.
50:54Never.
50:54Um, what is fennel?
50:56It's a bulb.
50:57Do it again.
51:00It's a bulb.
51:01Do it again.
51:02From Harry.
51:02Do it again.
51:02We're not doing this.
51:04Mark, for Nell, not fennel.
51:06Fennel is a bulb.
51:07I've got a question.
51:08This is going to, this is going to, just give us the answer.
51:11Nail it.
51:11In 2026.
51:13Uh, what makes a good man?
51:17One of the problems of the manosphere is the manosphere actually has a very strict criteria
51:21about what a good man is.
51:23And, uh, you know, it has to be, you know, jacked, has to be capable of violence, has to be,
51:26you know, make your first million by the time you're 25.
51:29The manosphere has a very stringent image of what makes a good man.
51:35And the biggest thing I've learned from the months of talking to people is that doesn't
51:39help anyone.
51:40Right?
51:41Because anybody that's, there's nothing wrong with being jacked or making a million dollars.
51:44There's nothing wrong with that.
51:44But the manosphere makes you feel like if you're anything less than that, you're a lower form
51:51of life.
51:51So for me, the definition of a good man is, is to not embrace a definition.
51:57Right?
51:58The fundamental thing for me is, can you be somebody that builds and doesn't burn?
52:03Can you be somebody that, um, builds, that, uh, encourages people rather than discourages
52:10them?
52:10Now, look, um, at the end of the day, I'm certainly imperfect.
52:15Uh, you know, conflict is a part of life.
52:16There's natural wear and tear.
52:17No one's going to pretend like you're going to go through life and not make mistakes and
52:20not hurt people.
52:21I think they'd be naive to pretend like that doesn't happen.
52:24But on a very fundamental level, are you a person that, um, that doesn't hurt?
52:29Right?
52:29Like, just don't be a dickhead is kind of the fundamental principle, right?
52:34Don't be a dickhead.
52:35Um, and, and I think anything more restrictive than that doesn't help us because there's
52:39so many ways to be a man.
52:42Yeah.
52:42It's almost like I'm on a podcast, man of many.
52:45Um, like, I think, you know, like, I think that, that actually that term of your site,
52:50it actually does carry the idea quite beautifully that there is no one definition.
52:54There are, there are things that we love, things we aspire to, but they're different
52:58for everyone.
52:58Yeah.
52:58Like, I'm more interested in like, you know, some aspects of that than I am in others.
53:03There's no right way.
53:04And I think it's actually about losing the criteria and embracing what are the parts
53:09of you that, that you love most, but fundamentally don't be a dickhead.
53:14Don't be a dickhead.
53:16Don't be a dickhead, Rob.
53:17Don't be a dickhead.
53:18Do you have a joke?
53:20It's time to get out of here.
53:23Yes, I do.
53:24You ready?
53:25Go on.
53:26Wait a second.
53:27There's a pop-up.
53:27There's an ad?
53:31Seamless.
53:32Mm-hmm.
53:32Mark, Rob.
53:33Yes.
53:34What do you call a fake noodle?
53:37I don't know, Marcus.
53:38What do you call a fake noodle?
53:39Do I give it a crack?
53:40What do you call a fake noodle?
53:43No, I got nothing.
53:44An impasta.
53:45Oh.
53:47I like it.
53:48Not enough to laugh.
53:50No, I'm just thinking.
53:51You know, I grew up with lots of comedians and I'm the worst audience for comedians because
53:56they'll say something funny and be like, that's funny.
53:58That's funny.
53:58And they all, like, genetically, they need the laugh.
54:00If you don't give them the laugh, they're like a part of their body.
54:03But I think that's what, like, we are slowly just creating a podcast about what the dad joke
54:09is, what it means, where it's going, where it's been.
54:12And I think a fundamental part of a dad joke is if you laugh, it's probably not a dad joke.
54:17It's just a joke.
54:18Nah, that's fair.
54:19Yeah.
54:19Do you got one?
54:21He says with perfect English.
54:23I don't, I don't think I do, actually.
54:27Are you actually on the daddies podcast and you're going to pass on giving a dad joke?
54:32Oh my God, I have.
54:32You didn't really prepare him for this.
54:34I am.
54:34What is a dad?
54:35He should have one.
54:37Shame.
54:38Oh my God.
54:39I've done many dad jokes, but I actually just can't think of any right now.
54:43I'm having performance anxiety.
54:45Oh, no.
54:46Do you have one?
54:48Do you want to find me a fake one?
54:50Okay.
54:51Oh, let me read it from, because it's going to be cancelled first.
54:55No, it's from a website that says dad jokes that are actually funny, so it shouldn't be fair.
54:59Well, that's in the article.
55:00Well, I don't know, based on the survey size of one that I've heard so far.
55:04Tell you what, I'm going to read you a few of these and you tell me which ones you like.
55:10Because that thing's going to die eventually.
55:12Why was the librarian kicked off the plane?
55:16She didn't book.
55:17No.
55:18You've already seen the website.
55:19No, I did not see it.
55:20Because it was overbooked.
55:21No, that doesn't count.
55:21I'm going to scroll further down because I'm going to hold.
55:24I have a theory that he didn't scroll down that far.
55:28No, that's dreadful.
55:30He was addicted to the internet, isn't he?
55:32Yeah, look at him.
55:32Give him a screen and he's gone.
55:34Oh, okay.
55:35No, this one's good.
55:36Okay.
55:37Go on then.
55:38Why was the sand wet?
55:41Why was the sand wet?
55:42Shut up.
55:43Why was the sand wet?
55:45Because the seaweed.
55:48I like that.
55:49Sorry.
55:49I like that one.
55:50That one had a genuine laugh.
55:51That was, yeah.
55:52I like that.
55:52Okay, let's take the screen away.
55:54I think it's nice.
55:57Hey, Mark, thank you so much for coming on today.
56:00It's been informative, educational.
56:04I've said informative.
56:06Funny at times.
56:07Uplifting, inspiring, all of that.
56:08A little bit scary as well.
56:10This is too much ADHD for one minute.
56:13State of Man, ABC, when and where can people watch?
56:16It premieres on October 13, but you can watch the whole thing on iView any day after that.
56:19Good plug.
56:20All right.
56:21Should we wrap it up?
56:22Yeah, let's do it.
56:23I'm really good at wrapping up.
56:24Thank you for listening, watching, wherever you get your podcasts.
56:28Please share, like, subscribe, comment, whatever.
56:32I'm told that's really important.
56:33Then, you know, send it up to the chat.
56:35Leave them a review.
56:36Leave them a review.
56:37That's the thing that makes a difference here.
56:38Tell us either A, a dad joke.
56:42B, what you think of Mark's biceps.
56:46Should have worn the lactation.
56:48Should have worn the lactation.
56:50Take us out before he has a meltdown.
56:52This has been Daddy's.
56:53Who are you, though?
56:55Oh, I'm Rob.
56:55Hi, I'm Rob.
56:56No, bye.
56:57Bye.
56:58Bye.
56:58I've been Marcus.
56:59Mark, who have you been?
57:01I've been Mark for now.
57:02Excellent.
57:03You've been great.
57:04You've been great.