- 10 hours ago
There are more independent artists than ever today — but does that actually mean being independent has gotten easier? Molly Neuman, president of CD Baby, sits down with Billboard On The Record host Kristin Robinson for an episode about the evolution of being an independent artist, from the ’90s, when Neuman started her punk band Bratmobile, to today. They chat through how Napster, digital distribution and streaming transformed the industry, while diving into how artists have more leverage and options now than ever before. With that leverage, though, come new challenges, from an overwhelming volume of songs to rising marketing costs.
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Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Love what you hear? Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Billboard On The Record.
Love what you hear? Follow Billboard On The Record on Instagram, TikTok, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Youtube @billboard so you never miss an episode.
Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Category
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MusicTranscript
00:00:00We're going to be talking about the evolution of what it means to be an independent artist.
00:00:03And you know better than most this whole evolution that's taken place.
00:00:06Starting in the early 90s, you were in a feminist punk band called Bratmobile.
00:00:11Moving more into the present day, you're the president of CD Baby.
00:00:14You had to have a label.
00:00:15That was really the barrier to distribution, to getting into stores.
00:00:19That's obviously like the fundamental difference of what things are like now.
00:00:23Like even hearing the story about an A&R from a label approaching you
00:00:26after just seeing 20 minutes of your band play, it kind of feels quaint now.
00:00:31It's super quaint.
00:00:32The way that people find artists now is, you know, data-driven.
00:00:37I've always been curious about how far you can make it as an independent artist
00:00:40before tapping into a major label.
00:00:43You sometimes feel like you have to have a PhD to understand what's happening in the music industry.
00:00:48Yeah.
00:00:48Why would an artist who is, you know, in their early 20s
00:00:53know the ins and outs of this complex business and industry?
00:01:02What does it take to be an independent artist?
00:01:05Molly Newman knows better than most.
00:01:07In the early 1990s, Molly was the drummer in a band called Bratmobile,
00:01:11which is considered one of the seminal pioneers of Riot Grrrl,
00:01:14a feminist punk movement just before the turn of the 21st century.
00:01:18She also later played in bands like the Peachies and the Frumpies,
00:01:21but these days, however, she is playing occasional gigs with Bratmobile,
00:01:25and she's also the president of CD Baby,
00:01:28a longtime distributor designed for DIY artists at the start of their career
00:01:31to use to get their music online without having to sign an actual label deal.
00:01:36Today, we are going to compare the then and now.
00:01:39What did it take to be an independent artist back in the 1990s
00:01:42versus today, where technology has presented new opportunities to stay indie,
00:01:47but also some new challenges with that, too.
00:01:49Molly Newman, welcome to On The Record.
00:01:51Thank you for being here.
00:01:52Thank you for having me, Kristen.
00:01:53It's awesome.
00:01:53I am so excited about today because we're going to be talking about
00:01:57the evolution of what it means to be an independent artist.
00:02:00And you know better than most this whole evolution that's taken place.
00:02:03I do have some perspective.
00:02:05You do.
00:02:06You do.
00:02:07Starting in the early 90s,
00:02:08you were in a feminist punk band called Bratmobile,
00:02:12which is still going on today.
00:02:13Right.
00:02:14And through that, I'm sure you learned a lot of stuff about being a DIY artist.
00:02:17And then moving more into the present day,
00:02:20you're the president of CD Baby,
00:02:21and you help a bunch of independent artists get online now.
00:02:24Yeah.
00:02:25Yeah.
00:02:25Yeah.
00:02:25But I want to start kind of in the past.
00:02:28Sure.
00:02:28Let's start at the beginning of your career.
00:02:30When you're starting Bratmobile,
00:02:32what did it mean to be an independent artist in the early 90s in practice?
00:02:35Like, what did you have to do to get those records out there?
00:02:38So we just were interested in playing music as friends and with our friends and going to shows.
00:02:46And the easiest way to go to a show was to play one, you know.
00:02:51And so it was really more about community and being inspired by our peers and people that we admired
00:02:59and kind of wanting to do what we saw them doing.
00:03:03But also because we were women, we were motivated by the fact that we didn't see as many women on
00:03:10stage
00:03:11or even putting on shows.
00:03:12And we knew that they were there.
00:03:14We would literally go to record stores and comb through records and look in the back
00:03:19and see which bands had women in them if they weren't on the cover.
00:03:23And that was sort of our path to discovering new artists and being inspired by them.
00:03:29And then, you know, knowing that we could also be musicians.
00:03:34But even though we weren't necessarily there yet,
00:03:37we didn't spend high school sitting in our bedrooms learning Stairway to Heaven necessarily,
00:03:42which I think at the time was quite of a model.
00:03:45And so we learned as we went along.
00:03:49And a lot of the bands that we were inspired by were accessible and simple.
00:03:55And so that was our approach.
00:03:57But it really wasn't a career or exposure-oriented motivation.
00:04:04It was more the creation and the, you know, the act.
00:04:09Like the scene.
00:04:09Yeah, and the act of making music and, you know, just being present in that way.
00:04:15When it became something like, oh, we want to make a record,
00:04:19it was more of a document than trying to sell a lot of records, if that makes sense.
00:04:27Got it.
00:04:28Okay, so what's the recording process like?
00:04:30Were you renting time in a studio in Olympia and just like going in there?
00:04:33Or were you doing it at home?
00:04:34Sort of, yeah.
00:04:35So when we made our first single, so there's a cute story.
00:04:39We were invited to play a show in New York.
00:04:41We were in D.C. at the time.
00:04:43So we took the bus and borrowed gear and played a show at a place called The Spiral.
00:04:49And after our set, which was about 20 minutes long, I mean, it was really, really short.
00:04:56Someone walked up to us.
00:04:57It was sort of, you know, a dark, literal basement club on Houston.
00:05:02And his name was Ken Katkin.
00:05:04And he was like, I work at a label called Homestead Records.
00:05:06Would you want to make a record with us?
00:05:07It was so bizarre because we knew the label.
00:05:12They had put out Sonic Youth Records and they had put out other, you know, really inspiring artists.
00:05:19And we were like, we just literally started.
00:05:21We have like five songs.
00:05:22What are you talking about?
00:05:23Everything you saw on stage was actually all we have.
00:05:25Yeah, it really was.
00:05:26And we had maybe practiced only a few times because I became a drummer because our drummer quit.
00:05:31So that was sort of that, you know, talk about, you know, DIY.
00:05:35We're just going to do it that way.
00:05:37And so we were cautious about signing a deal.
00:05:41Yeah.
00:05:41But we did decide to do a single, a record, a seven inch.
00:05:46And there was a little budget.
00:05:48I mean, if I look back, it maybe was a few hundred bucks.
00:05:50Yeah.
00:05:51And that was a lot of money to us also.
00:05:53And we went and found a studio in Seattle and recorded the basic tracks and then finished them with another
00:06:01friend.
00:06:02The singer and I had started the band, just the two of us.
00:06:05And so we had done a sort of a demo of songs without our guitar player who ended up being
00:06:12in the band.
00:06:14So we had a little bit of exposure and we were students in media.
00:06:17I was learning filmmaking.
00:06:20And so the school that we went to had production gear and things like that.
00:06:25So it was all part of the environment of being creative and learning and being, you know, not having baggage.
00:06:34Yeah.
00:06:35I guess in a way.
00:06:36Yeah.
00:06:37But certainly when, you know, trying to think about it in context of an artist starting at any other point
00:06:45in the last 30 years, it's, you know, the fact that we really didn't have any barriers, but we found
00:06:51a way to do things.
00:06:52I guess in a way we did have barriers, but we didn't, we ignored them.
00:06:57Yeah.
00:06:58Well, I mean, I wonder when you first got approached by a label and you knew the label, you knew
00:07:03that they had put out some of the stuff that you were actually looking up to at the time.
00:07:06Did that give you more career ambition for the project rather than just we're doing this for fun with our
00:07:12local scene?
00:07:12You know, in a way it was, it was really validating and exciting, but I think because our peers at
00:07:21the time and the people that we really looked up to had their own labels.
00:07:25So they were labels that were from a scene like Discord or K Records in Olympia.
00:07:31And so I think that those were the labels that were probably more in our sights.
00:07:38DC, Discord only put out bands from DC.
00:07:41And even though I grew up there and I'm technically from there, our band really wasn't.
00:07:45So we never felt like we were going to ask to be on that label.
00:07:48And the same with Kay, I think we wanted to, what was cool about having someone come to us was
00:07:54that we didn't have to ask and be rejected by our friends, you know, because that was really the barrier
00:08:00to distribution, to getting into stores was you had to have a label.
00:08:04Yeah.
00:08:05So that's obviously like the fundamental difference of what things are like now.
00:08:09Yeah.
00:08:10Yeah.
00:08:10I mean, it feels so different, but like even hearing the story about an A&R from a label approaching
00:08:14you after just seeing 20 minutes of your band play.
00:08:18It feels so, it kind of feels quaint.
00:08:21It's super quaint.
00:08:22I know.
00:08:22Yeah.
00:08:23I mean, I don't, the way that people, you know, find artists now is, you know, data driven and, you
00:08:30know, such a different reality.
00:08:32Yeah.
00:08:33And that was just, you know, a place where the other artists that we were playing with, you know, there
00:08:39was a certain like identity that was associated with them and the club and all of the things that, you
00:08:45know, are kind of genuine.
00:08:48Yeah.
00:08:48Well, so who were kind of the traditional gatekeepers of the early nineties?
00:08:53Like, was it magazines, local radio stations?
00:08:57Like, tell me about that.
00:08:58Yeah, sure.
00:08:58I mean, what ended up happening was, yeah, I started my band.
00:09:02I graduated college and then started working in 1994 at Lookout Records, which had been the label that released the
00:09:11first two Green Day albums.
00:09:12And 94 was when Dookie came out.
00:09:15So it was a really, and, and obviously, you know, Nirvana had had Nevermind out for a few years.
00:09:21And I think maybe that's when In Utero came out there, you know, there was a lot.
00:09:25Somewhere around that.
00:09:26Going on Woodstock 94 was sort of the thing that, you know, catapulted Green Day in terms of international visibility.
00:09:35Their performance was, you know, iconic.
00:09:37And, and they were touring and a lot of the bands of that genre, pop punk, were, were coming up.
00:09:44And so I started working at the label then and learning about what it was really like to get records
00:09:51into stores.
00:09:52And we had an independent distribution company based in San Francisco, but they had to sub distribute to, at the
00:10:01time, the, the, the path was through Caroline to get into chain stores.
00:10:08So the chain stores didn't want to buy from, you know, small, regional, independent distributors, distributors.
00:10:15They didn't want to buy direct from labels in most cases.
00:10:18And so Caroline was really that, that sort of layer between that would help us get to Tower and get
00:10:25into, at the time, Best Buy was a big account and, and other chains like that.
00:10:30And for the catalog of Green Day, that was really important.
00:10:34And, and, and so that, those were the ways that things I started learning about their advertising to get into
00:10:40the Sunday circular that would really drive a lot of what the buyers would bring in.
00:10:47There was never a guarantee that anyone would buy them, but you had to, like a fan, but you had
00:10:54to work the system enough to get them into distribution, into the, you know,
00:11:00the back room so that you could pull it out to the floor when it was ready.
00:11:05Yeah, no, I think that's something I always try to remind independent artists I talked to you today about is
00:11:10like back in the day.
00:11:11I mean, when you're in the days of physical at any point in time during the days of physical, they
00:11:16had to make a bunch of your records wondering if anyone would buy them.
00:11:21Super high risk.
00:11:22Super high risk.
00:11:22It was the, the, the, the volatility of the nineties.
00:11:27And then when, you know, file sharing came and disrupted physical, it was, it was really so, so risky.
00:11:37And, and I certainly think, you know, I've, I've thought a lot over the years and talk about it a
00:11:42lot too, although the ways that we've sort of de-risked the business in a lot of ways,
00:11:47and we have different, more, in, in many cases, more complicated issues, but that same sort of, yeah, I have
00:11:54to order 2,000 copies and spend $20,000 just to have it sit on a shelf, which it did.
00:12:01And then in many cases it would be returned.
00:12:03Oh man.
00:12:04And, you know, you sort of.
00:12:05So they don't leave it on the shelf?
00:12:07Like they just kind of send it back at a certain point?
00:12:08Over the years we changed distribution companies and we ended up working with one that was more international and more
00:12:14national, you know, sort of had more power.
00:12:17But we would, like, if we had a big release, you would order enough to be in inventory regionally for
00:12:26their sort of distribution centers.
00:12:28And then it would sit in the regional distribution and then maybe the chains would bring it into their local
00:12:32regional distribution and it would sit there.
00:12:35And if the demand was enough, they would put it into the stores.
00:12:38Wow.
00:12:39And then if the demand.
00:12:40But nationally?
00:12:40Yeah.
00:12:41Okay.
00:12:41And if the demand wasn't enough, it would sit on the shelf and then come back at a charge.
00:12:46Wow.
00:12:47So, yeah, when you look at some of the contracts, there's, you know, back in those, in that era, and
00:12:52I'm sure they, in many cases, some of this kind of language exists in a different form.
00:12:56You know, there would be return charges and different things that would flow down a lot of times to the
00:13:02artist.
00:13:03And, you know, you just, there was no other way.
00:13:06There was, there was no leverage.
00:13:08Yeah.
00:13:08Yeah.
00:13:09I mean, it's really interesting.
00:13:10Like, even up until, like, the early 2010s, I was just talking to my colleague, Jason Lipschitz, who just wrote
00:13:18a book all about One Direction.
00:13:20Yes.
00:13:20And we're talking about how One Direction being from the UK, they're a pop band.
00:13:26They were, they had global ambitions from the beginning.
00:13:28But Jason was telling me that, you know, the early, like, What Makes You Beautiful, their debut single, was actually
00:13:33only released regionally in the UK.
00:13:35Wow.
00:13:36And so there were, there was US demand, but people didn't get it in the US until four months later.
00:13:40Right.
00:13:40And it's interesting to think about that, like, even.
00:13:42The logistics.
00:13:43Yeah.
00:13:44No, it's, it's, it's wild.
00:13:46And, and, and it was really complicated.
00:13:48And a lot of times you would spend tens of thousands of dollars that was just out the window.
00:13:53So, and that, I think, it's a hard lesson.
00:13:57The label, you know, unfortunately, because of all of these dynamics and, you know, management experience and, and things like
00:14:04that, you know, it didn't, it didn't make it through.
00:14:07And that was, you know, probably in my career, one of the hardest things to go through when you have
00:14:12a sort of certifiable, didn't work out.
00:14:16Yeah.
00:14:17Yeah.
00:14:18Yeah, well, I mean, like, also, I imagine so many of those records from independent labels back in the day
00:14:24are just lost now.
00:14:26I mean, yeah, I mean, I think when, when we closed the label, the rights reverted back to the artists.
00:14:32And so most of them have been re-released through other channels over the years.
00:14:38So that's good.
00:14:39You know, I think in that case, it was, you know, the best case scenario for something that wasn't, you
00:14:44know, happy at all.
00:14:46Um, but, but yeah, the hard lessons to learn.
00:14:50And I think, you know, navigating some of those changes in the industry where file sharing, for example, you didn't
00:14:57really anticipate how disruptive that was going to be.
00:15:00You, you, historically, when you look at it now and you're like, okay, well, CDs cost $20.
00:15:06There was only one song that anybody wanted.
00:15:09You forced everyone into this behavior that was so dissatisfying that ultimately they just threw up their hands and went
00:15:17a whole other way.
00:15:18And you've seen patterns like that in the history of music now.
00:15:22Um, obviously we're in a weird moment of disruption or change, um, right now, but I think we have a
00:15:30little bit more wisdom and maybe historical perspective to pull from.
00:15:36We hope so.
00:15:37So I do, I do hear so much like reporting on like AI being the big disruption right now.
00:15:42I hear so much from, uh, label executives that they're like, don't worry.
00:15:48Well, you know, we're thinking about Napster or like people, people will always refer back to like, we're not going
00:15:53to repeat Napster.
00:15:55And I mean, who knows, maybe we are doomed to repeat the cycle.
00:15:58Maybe we're not, who knows.
00:15:59But yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that at the time though, when Napster and piracy and file sharing
00:16:05started to take off.
00:16:07People didn't quite realize how big of a deal it was going to become.
00:16:10Do you know what that turning point was when you and people around you just like looked up and realized,
00:16:15oh shit.
00:16:16Well, yeah.
00:16:17I mean, I think in that, in the early 2000s, when the artists were really compelling and wonderful.
00:16:27So the artists that we were releasing, Ted Leo and the Donnas and the Pattern and Pretty Girls Make Graves
00:16:33and, you know, really good bands that had fans.
00:16:36And New York was sort of like when the Strokes and the Yaya Yaya's and TV on the radio was,
00:16:40was coming up.
00:16:41And so there was this energy of really good quality and the audience was there.
00:16:46But I think it was also probably sparking a lot of discovery that, you know, access to every album in
00:16:55the world offered then.
00:16:56I do think about that time and, and being probably, yeah, unprepared for the technology aspect as, as an industry.
00:17:06I don't think we were technologists necessarily, you know, the, the, the label side of the world is, you know,
00:17:13thinking about things much more creatively.
00:17:15And not in terms of this new licensing framework that needs to be built, you know, with precision and foresight
00:17:23and all of these things.
00:17:23And certainly as, as someone running an independent label who didn't, you know, we weren't MBAs and lawyers or finance
00:17:30people either.
00:17:31We were punks who happened to work at this place, you know, and kept it going really well for a
00:17:37long time.
00:17:37But then, you know, without that sort of more management instinct even, I think that certainly labels like Discord and
00:17:45Subpop who have also weathered lots of different changes probably just had a, you know, there was some other element
00:17:55of the way they operated or the, the sort of infrastructure that they were tapped into.
00:18:02For example, you know, Subpop did have a joint venture at one point.
00:18:06They had ADA as a distributor.
00:18:08They had, you know, a different kind of ability to collaborate, I guess.
00:18:15Yeah.
00:18:16Well, I'm glad you brought up Subpop.
00:18:18That's one of those first independent labels when I was a kid, like digging through liner notes.
00:18:23And I was like, okay, I was obsessed with Nirvana.
00:18:25And so I was like, okay, they were on Subpop.
00:18:29So that's a cool label.
00:18:30I should, I should write that down.
00:18:31And I think that that still, you know, with all of the discourse in the last couple of years about
00:18:36independence specifically, I still believe tremendously in the fact that independent labels as brands is still something very distinctive and
00:18:47extremely compelling and inspiring.
00:18:50And, you know, that hopefully will, you know, continue.
00:18:54Yeah, that's so true about independent labels.
00:18:56They do feel like, or at least a lot of them are kind of tastemakers in their own right.
00:18:59100%.
00:19:00So you look at the, you know, the roster on Subpop or on Secretly or whatever, insert name here, and
00:19:06you really get a sense for what the taste is in the building, which I don't really think you see
00:19:10as much with majors.
00:19:11Majors are more about, like, having a little bit of everything.
00:19:14Yeah, and for that reason, probably labels, I mean, when iTunes was launching, I think one of the big discussion
00:19:23items was, you know, search by label was something that the independent, you know, community thought was a really important
00:19:29aspect to be, you know, something that you would be able to offer people to, you know, and I think
00:19:35that most DSPs now do have that.
00:19:39But it's really not necessary for what was at that time, you know, maybe even if it was, you know,
00:19:45there are arguably lots of identities around Atlantic or, you know, of that era, or Mercury or Def Jam, obviously,
00:19:55but, you know, it's not the same.
00:19:59Yes, yeah.
00:20:00Not community-based.
00:20:01Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:20:02And it's interesting.
00:20:03There are a lot of things that are in the major label system now where, like, at its inception, when
00:20:08it was independent, there was kind of, like, an identity.
00:20:10Yeah.
00:20:10And the identity shifted as it became more of a major entity.
00:20:14Right.
00:20:14Yeah, going back to the Subpop thing in Nirvana, I was thinking about Nirvana when I was researching and thinking
00:20:23about this topic.
00:20:24So their first album was released on Subpop, and at the time, Seattle had its own scene going on right
00:20:30near Olympia, where you were also working at the time.
00:20:34And I thought about, although Nirvana, it seemed like none of them really wanted to be super famous, they did
00:20:40have ambition with their music.
00:20:41Yeah.
00:20:42And so they released their first album on Subpop, but then they switched over to Geffen, which was more of,
00:20:47like, a commercial label that could offer them global distribution for their extremely fast-growing fan base.
00:20:54And I'm wondering, in your opinion, at that time, would it be possible to reach the heights that Nirvana did
00:21:00with Nevermind and some of their other releases if they had just stayed on a smaller, more local label?
00:21:06We'll never know, exactly.
00:21:08Because it's the same pattern, you know, Green Day did sign to Reprise.
00:21:12Yeah.
00:21:13And The Offspring was the other album at the time that had a huge hit while it was on Epitaph.
00:21:20And then they did end up signing to one of the Sony labels.
00:21:24And so you kind of saw that pattern happening at some point, maybe whether, and who knows exactly whether it
00:21:32was the artists themselves or their teams that said,
00:21:35there's a threshold that there's a threshold that we're hitting, we need to tap into something much bigger in order
00:21:41to reach our full potential.
00:21:44Or the checks were the right size or who knows, right?
00:21:47We just, we don't know for sure.
00:21:49Yeah.
00:21:50Coming from a scene where, you know, the corporate ogre was the, you know, the-
00:21:57The man.
00:21:57The man was like, you know, like, never do that.
00:22:00But there was compromises in every direction at the same time.
00:22:04And, for example, Caroline was owned by EMI.
00:22:09And so, you know, there was, and EMI had, at that time, ties that the lore was the ties to,
00:22:15you know, sort of military conglomerates or something like this.
00:22:20Wow, everything old is new again.
00:22:22I know.
00:22:22Because I did an episode.
00:22:23Defense, defense, defense thing.
00:22:25So, you know, and as like from a punk community where at least the, it wasn't like wildfire on the
00:22:32internet when you would have a rumor or something like that.
00:22:34But there was still that kind of, oh, what about this?
00:22:37And, you know, that there's no credibility there.
00:22:39And I think ultimately having artists make decisions for themselves, whatever their needs are or their priorities are, like, really
00:22:51should be respected.
00:22:52And I do think that's a theme that's relevant today also because there are so many choices and there are
00:22:59so many things that are less restrictive when you tap into this larger infrastructure now.
00:23:05So, you know, deals then were in all likelihood, unless you had a tremendous amount of leverage, life of copyright,
00:23:13perpetuity, whatever it's going to be, forever.
00:23:16And until you're dropped or until you figure out a way to renegotiate, which I think most savvy teams knew
00:23:22that that was one of the triggers at some point.
00:23:25But it's a really fascinating kind of dynamic.
00:23:30And you saw that then happen with other artists.
00:23:33Like one of my favorite examples is Royal Trucks, who got signed to Virgin when it was just a label
00:23:39and, you know, put out a record.
00:23:42And I don't know how their team could have thought that this was the idea, but it's when you look
00:23:48it up, the record cover is the most atrocious thing you've ever seen in your life.
00:23:52And the music may have been the most amazing, and I think it was.
00:23:57They're one of my favorite bands.
00:23:59But you're like, what was the idea here?
00:24:01You're signing to a major to theoretically, like you're describing, like access to radio or access to distribution or MTV
00:24:08or whatever it's going to be.
00:24:09And you kind of throw the one image literally in the toilet when you look it up.
00:24:16Oh, wow.
00:24:17Okay, yeah, we're going to have to show that on screen so everyone has a reference.
00:24:20It's rough.
00:24:20You might not want to, but I'll have to look that up.
00:24:24That is crazy.
00:24:25Yeah, no, I've always been curious about how far you can make it as an independent artist before tapping into
00:24:31a major label or like just major infrastructure.
00:24:34Well, I think those rules are totally gone now, right?
00:24:36I mean, you see artists like Phoebe Bridgers, you know, who is releasing records that are number one in the
00:24:42UK and selling out arenas and, you know, completely doing it with secretly.
00:24:48And, you know, that's just incredible.
00:24:51And I think having, again, the improvement in my view is that there are these options and that there are
00:25:00certainly things that you get with infrastructure and teams and all sorts of experience that, you know, a variety of
00:25:09companies might have.
00:25:11But, but, but they're not limited.
00:25:14Yeah, yeah.
00:25:15Well, okay.
00:25:15So around the turn of the 21st century, DIY distribution became a thing, which is what you're working in now.
00:25:22CD Baby got started around then.
00:25:24Yeah, 98.
00:25:25I think AWOL may have started technically a little bit before that.
00:25:29But, but yeah, I think right there.
00:25:32And so can you tell me a little bit about early CD Baby and what that meant for the independent
00:25:38artist career that you had these new options?
00:25:40It's so interesting because the motivation, as I understand it from the founder, was to remove that barrier, right?
00:25:48To connect really.
00:25:50And I believe that the intention particularly was around, you know, small artists who maybe were selling less than a
00:25:58box of 30 CDs.
00:25:59Because that's your, you know, your sort of quantity that you have when you, when you buy and manufacture CDs,
00:26:05they come in boxes of 30.
00:26:07Yeah.
00:26:07So they have to be on shelves in that order.
00:26:10And, you know, but if you're a small artist, selling that to one or two fans really is a complicated
00:26:18initiative.
00:26:19And I think probably e-commerce as a concept was still evolving, right?
00:26:23I mean, literally 1998.
00:26:26Yeah.
00:26:26Um, so I think then that was the, the concept was let's bring a lot of small independent artists who
00:26:33have a variety of genres, you know, but they're motivated enough to record and release and manufacture these, these CDs
00:26:42and LPs.
00:26:44And we'll be the storefront and, you know, through that and everyone will maintain all of their rights and all
00:26:51of their own, you know, intellectual property and we will be that conduit.
00:26:57And I think what was great about that was as new formats or new experiences evolved, like iTunes, CD Baby
00:27:04was in a position to be the distributor to the new digital platform.
00:27:11Yeah, so the new storefronts that were coming up.
00:27:13Yeah, exactly.
00:27:14So Rhapsody, E-Music, iTunes in the U.S.
00:27:19And then, you know, from there in position to do the same when streaming became the dominant sort of experience
00:27:27for finding music.
00:27:29Yeah, yeah.
00:27:29And I mean, it's, it's so funny.
00:27:32It's, it's still called CD Baby.
00:27:33And there, there was a point to the CD part of that at one point.
00:27:36It was literally the point, right?
00:27:38Yeah, yeah.
00:27:38And, and we've, we've gone about, you know, back and forth a lot over, I've been in my role as
00:27:43president for about almost two and a half years.
00:27:46And so, you know, thinking what is, what are the important things for us to, you know, really offer now?
00:27:53And is CD Baby a strength or is it something that maybe, you know, as a, it's almost anachronistic or
00:28:00something, right?
00:28:00But we really did realize that having been in business for 28 years now, you know, it's not easy.
00:28:08And we have a lot of loyal customers and loyal artists that work with us and have for many eras
00:28:14of their career.
00:28:16And, you know, not to be too sort of, you know, cute about the, the, you know, rise in CD
00:28:23sales, the rise in vinyl sales.
00:28:25But, you know, physical is something that's important to a lot of music fans.
00:28:30And so it wasn't something that we thought was, that was the issue, wasn't a problem.
00:28:36And, you know, as we get in a better position to be more focused on new artists, I think we're
00:28:43going to be making that case pretty emphatically that, you know, we're, the stability of having sort of weathered all
00:28:49of these eras of transformation.
00:28:51It's going to be something that's really positive.
00:28:52Yeah. I want to go back to those early days for you in Olympia.
00:28:59And I feel like, so I recently had Aaron Dessner on this show and he was talking to me about
00:29:04how a sense of place has really impacted the music that he made.
00:29:08So for Aaron, for example, he lives in upstate New York.
00:29:11He records everything with everyone he works with at Long Pond Studios.
00:29:15Yes.
00:29:16And it's become such a thing to get to go to Long Pond and record there.
00:29:19And I just wonder for you in your early career, how much a sense of place was infused in what
00:29:25you did?
00:29:26Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:27I mean, coming from D.C., you know, growing up there, the music scene for not just punk, but specifically
00:29:34punk, but also go-go.
00:29:36It's another, you know, the sort of local genre that has cracked globally a couple of times in songs.
00:29:45Da Butt was one of them by EU.
00:29:48That was one of the Spike Lee movies.
00:29:51And then one of Omri's big hits also has a go-go beat.
00:29:55So you hear it in different places, but it's never been like there are hundreds and thousands of people who
00:30:01will go to shows for go-go music in D.C.
00:30:05But it really like New York, Philly.
00:30:07No.
00:30:08But the punk scene in D.C. was very contained and supportive and inspirational across, you know, all of the
00:30:16different bands.
00:30:17And there's tons of collaboration.
00:30:18And Olympia, similarly, you know, just a place where it was accessible, not super expensive place to live.
00:30:26And a lot of creativity and art and music and theater and filmmaking.
00:30:33And so just having that sort of atmosphere of creativity, I think, really did feed into it.
00:30:39There's a beer from Olympia that's no longer made there called Olympia Beer.
00:30:42And, you know.
00:30:43Do they still call it Olympia Beer, but it's just not an Olympia?
00:30:45I don't even know if they make it anymore, but I definitely don't manufacture it there.
00:30:49But it was in the it's in the water was the phrase.
00:30:53Which is so ironic if they if they do make it, it's not made from Olympia water.
00:30:58But, you know, I mean, there is something about that kind of just ethereal atmosphere.
00:31:04And I think, you know, not coming from the Northwest, but being around in that time.
00:31:09So, you know, Sub Pop was established then.
00:31:11They were doing the Singles Club.
00:31:13Bleach had come out.
00:31:15Nirvana was signing to DGC.
00:31:17But, you know, there was still a lot of sort of they were still such an amazing band.
00:31:23And even us punks, you know, loved going to Nirvana shows and would freak out doing that.
00:31:29Yeah, I was actually going to ask, like, did anyone think that they sold out by getting so big?
00:31:34Because I mean, I think that sure, that was probably part of I they weren't my close friends.
00:31:39So I wasn't in a position to have an opinion about that.
00:31:42But I'm sure people who really weren't in a position to have an opinion did.
00:31:47But they, you know, I think that seemed to be I mean, if you read a lot of the interviews
00:31:52or the coverage of that time, I'm sure that was a big issue that they were trying to navigate.
00:31:58You know, Dave is from D.C.
00:31:59So that is, you know, he was on a punk band Scream that was, you know, from that scene entirely.
00:32:06And and Kurt and Chris being from, you know, that Aberdeen, Olympia, Seattle connection.
00:32:13I think, yeah, there are a lot of people who valued being precious about it.
00:32:19But but thankfully, you know, for better or worse, obviously, it's a very complicated story.
00:32:25But they, you know.
00:32:27So still now, 35 years later, we still love those those songs and that music.
00:32:32Yeah.
00:32:32And I discovered them 20 years later.
00:32:35Right.
00:32:35The exact same way about them.
00:32:37Right.
00:32:37It blows your mind.
00:32:38It does.
00:32:39It does.
00:32:40Well, I speaking of my youth, I guess I actually released a song on CD Baby way, way back in
00:32:46the day.
00:32:47You'll never find it.
00:32:48You don't know what the name is.
00:32:51That's OK.
00:32:52But, you know, when I was making music as a kid, I was so I was getting into Nirvana and
00:32:58all these bands of the past.
00:33:00And I used to think about these like local scenes that I would read about.
00:33:04And I would think, oh, my gosh, it would have been so cool to be able to be part of
00:33:07something like that.
00:33:08And I felt like by the time I was a teenager in the 2010s, local scenes were not quite as
00:33:15much of a thing as they once were.
00:33:16Right.
00:33:17And it seems like now a lot of scenes are kind of developing in online spaces.
00:33:22But I'm curious, like from your vantage point, watching independent music evolve, are local scenes still in existence?
00:33:29Well, it seems like they're yeah, they're in existence.
00:33:31Since they may be less on our radar because we operate more, maybe you and I and the people that
00:33:38listen to you and watch this are operating in a different sphere of, you know, major venues and, you know,
00:33:46major publications speaking from a scale.
00:33:50But, you know, what I understand and I've been fortunate enough to go to a couple of shows like this,
00:33:56you know, there are scenes that are happening that are not, you know, pretty incredibly self-sustaining.
00:34:03And part of, again, why they're important and they're meaningful is because not everybody knows about them.
00:34:09Yeah. So are you saying we're not in touch anymore?
00:34:11No, I know this is my business and I also have, you know, a tween.
00:34:15So I look at, you know, what she's into and, you know, she's mostly into mainstream things right now because
00:34:22thankfully she's not allowed to be on social media yet and things like that.
00:34:26So when that discovery comes, it probably will, you know, tap into things that are a little bit more unique
00:34:33and and special and not mainstream yet.
00:34:37But it is so, so bizarre that you can have these things that are happening online only and they are
00:34:45becoming, you know, their own version of ecosystems or, you know, environments that are not, you know, they're they're not
00:34:54exactly virtual, but they're not about just going to a warehouse on the east side.
00:34:58Yeah. Yeah. Well, OK, so with Rise of DIY Distribution has come a ton of new music.
00:35:03Yes. As on a previous episode of the show, very recently, Rob Jonas from Luminate came on and he was
00:35:08talking about how 150.
00:35:11Yeah. That's the new number. 150,000 per day.
00:35:13I took a deep breath when I saw that episode. Yeah.
00:35:17Yeah. And I mean, as the number of songs that are released every day has grown over the past, what,
00:35:23two, three decades or so.
00:35:25Yeah. That has really changed the game and it's shifted the market share of like who's releasing music way more
00:35:30in favor of independence than ever before.
00:35:32And DIY distribution is one of the reasons why, like before it really was impossible to get on every storefront
00:35:38in the country or, you know, now we're on digital storefronts.
00:35:42But it's allowed anyone who wants to, including me in my bedroom, to release music on Spotify if I wanted
00:35:48to.
00:35:49Yeah. And I'm wondering how you've seen that change the music industry, that there is a market share shift towards
00:35:54more independent artists.
00:35:55Yeah. Well, it's, I think the volume and the who's listening to it ratio and all of the sort of
00:36:03the connection points between these dynamics is really what is so fascinating and really hard to understand specifically, right?
00:36:12Because the 150,000, like we know how many tracks we're delivering per day.
00:36:17We know it's not near that, you know, it's not that many.
00:36:21So we know we're not that volume player exactly.
00:36:27But we also know that there is a lot of volume that is being listened to in different ways.
00:36:33And, you know, I mean, obviously there's a lot of questions about precisely how any, you know, using the math
00:36:39of the human population, the, you know, who has access to digital music, who are subscribers, all of those things.
00:36:45You're like, what's actually going on here?
00:36:47I think that's, that is a complicated question that, you know, we're all as an industry trying to wrestle with
00:36:54to support the fact that people do want to make music.
00:36:58Like you said, they want to make it in their bedroom.
00:37:00They want people to hear it.
00:37:01And there is an audience for it in certain ways.
00:37:04And people want to discover things that are new.
00:37:06So how do you do that a little bit better with all of this, these other dynamics around volume creation
00:37:14and access and the other stats that I think Rob shared around how little of that, those 150,000 tracks
00:37:20are actually listened to, right?
00:37:22Yeah.
00:37:23Yeah.
00:37:23There's a lot of them that sit on the storefront, probably, again, including mine from high school, that are not
00:37:28being listened to.
00:37:29So, uh, but yeah, no, but it does feel like it allows artists so many more options than just having
00:37:35to jump to, okay, I got a label deal offered to me.
00:37:38I'm going to sign it right now because I need that.
00:37:40Right.
00:37:40And the most, I think most emerging artists start, don't start there anymore.
00:37:44Yeah.
00:37:45And I think that is good and, and healthy if they're serious about being focused on hopefully making interesting music
00:37:56that means something to them primarily, right?
00:37:59Because that's really where I think most of the music that we all value, a lot of the artists that
00:38:05you have here are coming from a place that they have something to say and they have meaning behind what
00:38:11they're doing.
00:38:12And that is coming from their brains and their hands and, you know, whether it's on a, you know, a
00:38:18keyboard or a drum machine or whatever technology evolution we're dealing with, that's kind of irrelevant, but it's the origin
00:38:26of that creativity is still coming from themselves.
00:38:29Um, and then I think what we're trying to find is then people actually want to hear that music too.
00:38:35So they're like, what is that proper ratio more, more people, you know, who have access to all of this
00:38:42music now through DSPs and other platforms.
00:38:45I mean, this is, it's a, it's a wild kind of math problem in a way.
00:38:49Um, but I think what we're hoping to focus on is finding a way to give that better access to
00:38:56these artists.
00:38:57And so when they do find an audience, whether it's small, you know, it probably should start small, you know,
00:39:03with your family, with your friends, with your peers, um, and growing it genuinely from there, being able to then
00:39:11be in a position.
00:39:11If someone from a label did come across, you know, maybe that basement in New York and said, Hey, I
00:39:16want to do your record.
00:39:17Um, you actually know what you want.
00:39:19And I think there's a lot more access to the, the detail around the music industry, the kind of deals
00:39:26that are available.
00:39:28Um, the way that people operate, what you're, when you're signing a deal, for example, we all know there's a
00:39:34famous one of a 15 year old who signed a 15, five year, I mean, a five record deal in
00:39:40perpetuity,
00:39:40who then had to buy her rights back for a number of methods.
00:39:44Um, you know, that isn't necessarily a scenario anymore.
00:39:49Yeah.
00:39:49And I think that's, I think that is progressive.
00:39:52Yes.
00:39:52I, yeah, it does feel like because there are so many options to stay independent and do that pretty sustainably
00:39:58for a while as your audience grows,
00:40:00that it has forced major labels to, or, or any label, any large label to offer a more friendly deal
00:40:08because it's like, okay, well,
00:40:09if I don't get the terms that I want, let's say I'm an independent artist, I've been approached by a
00:40:13label.
00:40:14I could just say, you know, I'm okay with being independent for another album cycle.
00:40:17Right.
00:40:18Like I can walk away from this deal and that's not something.
00:40:20I think the flexibility available to artists now is really what is an improvement.
00:40:27And you can decide, again, whatever the criteria you have, if, you know, a big check or access to a
00:40:37marketing team or whatever those things are,
00:40:39you can be in a position to say, yes, I want those or no, I'm going to find a way
00:40:45to do it on my own.
00:40:46And not only are there companies like what we do, you know, in terms of, you know, distribution,
00:40:52and we offer some additional services to help market and, you know, promote and all of those things,
00:40:56but there are a hundred percent independent companies that are available for that too.
00:41:00And you can be a discerning customer as an artist for putting that whole package together.
00:41:07And I think that is, you know, the, I have used this word a few times,
00:41:12but I think that leverage and sort of recentering it for artists and the industry kind of coming into that
00:41:18is what is a real, it's real progress.
00:41:21Yeah.
00:41:22I often hear artists complain about streaming rates.
00:41:26Yes.
00:41:27But at the same time, we are at a place where people can, more people can release music than ever
00:41:32before.
00:41:32So I feel like there's pros and cons to the streaming era for the independent artist.
00:41:37And I'm wondering what you think.
00:41:39Do you think that we're in the best time that has existed for independent artists or not?
00:41:45Yeah.
00:41:45I mean, I think it's the best because there are so many options and we're, I think,
00:41:51learning from some of the challenges of the past in a completely different way.
00:41:57But you think about streaming from a, you know, who uses the streaming services?
00:42:04And you've always had different kinds of music fans, whether they were radio listeners or they were people that found
00:42:12every Friday,
00:42:14they would find themselves in the store Tuesday, I guess it was back in the day.
00:42:17That was a whole drama 10 years ago.
00:42:20New Music Tuesday, New Music Friday.
00:42:23But, you know, they would, you would find yourself, you know, there was always different kinds of people who had
00:42:29different levels of,
00:42:31you know, willingness to spend all of their money or all of their time in music and some who were
00:42:37just more casual.
00:42:39And I think we just have that into a much more massive scale right now.
00:42:43But what's interesting to see it, particularly around things like high res audio, and you, you find companies that are
00:42:51now kind of doing a really good job of serving the needs of the audience as well as the artist.
00:42:58And I'm, I think that that's kind of a good thing also.
00:43:01Yeah, that's, that's an interesting point.
00:43:03And it's also interesting.
00:43:05I've heard some complaints from independent artists about, like, the move towards hi-fi, because mixing don't be out most.
00:43:12You don't have so many resources to have multiple mixes and multiple mastering versions and things like that.
00:43:17And I get that.
00:43:18Yeah, yeah.
00:43:19But I mean, there will always be things that rise up that kind of separate.
00:43:22Another thing that I, I've encountered that independent artists, I've seen a lot of complaints from them about is an
00:43:29earlier, earlier episode of this podcast about digital marketing.
00:43:31Um, we had on the founders of chaotic good, and yes, they were talking about, you know, all we've had
00:43:37some interesting examples this past year, right?
00:43:40Oh, yeah.
00:43:41Like all the social media marketing sorcery.
00:43:43And I've also seen a lot of independent artists speak out after that episode aired about how they're like, you
00:43:49know, but I just I can't afford something like this.
00:43:51Yeah, I didn't know that all this stuff was going on.
00:43:53Yeah.
00:43:54And unfortunately, while things have gotten so much easier for independent artists, there are also new barriers that pop up.
00:44:00And that usually comes in the form of resources.
00:44:03So things that cost money, an extra digital marketing company that's on top of the label already.
00:44:08You know, Adobe Atmos mix that sounds fantastic from a top engineer.
00:44:13All those things will still come up.
00:44:15And again, you sort of are making the connection between there's a certain audience that cares extremely for high res
00:44:25audio,
00:44:25or the experience that they've crafted in their home through whatever, you know, the, the, and I'm talking about the
00:44:31music consumer, right?
00:44:33They've really invested in their speakers and their setup and all of the things.
00:44:37And so they, they really do appreciate those, those investments from the artists.
00:44:42And then you have most people who are listening on their headphones.
00:44:45And so, you know, how do you prioritize as an independent artist where you want to concentrate your efforts?
00:44:52And I would certainly support being a little bit more in the, you know, focus on the craft, focus on
00:44:59the work that you're doing, number one,
00:45:01and then focus on finding people that you genuinely can connect it to, starting with your family.
00:45:07Sometimes we do see these things and we're like, why is there no, why is there not one stream on
00:45:11this song?
00:45:12I know. I'm like, you don't stream your own song.
00:45:14Like, you don't even do it. It's like, it's not fraud. It's literally asking your mom, you know, like, what
00:45:19is, what is wrong here?
00:45:21And, you know, and, and, but I think one of the things that I've learned over my career,
00:45:26I did spend a couple of years working at Kickstarter where you, you know, have to ask for support for
00:45:33your release.
00:45:34And the model there is you don't, if you don't reach your goals, you don't get anything.
00:45:39So you're really motivated to find a way to set a realistic goal and to get people to support it.
00:45:47It means you kind of have to be a marketer.
00:45:49And a lot of artists don't want to think about corny terms like I'm a salesperson or I'm a marketer
00:45:56or any of the things that are not creatively genuine and, you know, pure, but that's not very realistic, right?
00:46:06You have to be able to tell your story, to connect with people and to be vulnerable.
00:46:12And a lot of the pushback I got at the time when I was trying to, in my role, work
00:46:17with the industry a little bit more,
00:46:18like, why don't we do a demo project?
00:46:21Like, get the artists to meet their goal and then you match it or something, you know,
00:46:26that really just seemed like they would be, again, to that point we were talking about, about risk.
00:46:30That would be a better, less of a risk for the investor, the label, whatever you're going to call them.
00:46:38It would be more leverage for the artists because they knew how to tell their story.
00:46:42They had been successful.
00:46:43They might just have started, but they knew a path to success.
00:46:48And when you're looking at raising $2,500 or $5,000, like, it's not easy, but it's, there's a formula.
00:46:55You could find, you know, 10 people at 50, whatever it's going to be.
00:46:59And it was really not, a lot of artists find that vulnerability almost the biggest challenge.
00:47:05And then when you're successful, say you hit a, you know, a bigger goal, then there's the DIY challenge
00:47:12and the infrastructure to manufacture, distribute, pick, pack, and ship, you know, get things promoted.
00:47:20It is a burden and that's not why you signed up to be, or if you think you signed up
00:47:26for it, you know,
00:47:26that's not why, that wasn't what you thought you were getting into.
00:47:29And I think it is a moment where artists are, you know, for better or worse business people,
00:47:35there are a tremendous amount of options for them to support their business.
00:47:39But it is, it does take away from maybe the more glamorous, the more, what's more perceived to be more
00:47:48glamorous,
00:47:49which is creating, performing, and things like that.
00:47:51Yeah.
00:47:52I mean, unfortunately, as an independent artist, you got to get scrappy and it is, it's not as glamorous as
00:47:56it seems.
00:47:57No, it's not.
00:47:58And, you know, and it's hard, you're, especially now because the prices, you know, when we were starting,
00:48:03things were $4.
00:48:04You, a ticket to a show was four to five to eight max, right?
00:48:08That was crazy.
00:48:09It's crazy.
00:48:10And now, you know, we're selling tickets for, for $30 for us.
00:48:13We're like, who's going to pay $30, you know?
00:48:16Oh my God.
00:48:16I'll pay $30 to go see you.
00:48:18But it's funny.
00:48:19You just don't, you know, it's such a shift because a cocktail is $30 now, you know, or,
00:48:24and certainly gas, like we don't want to get into the inflation, but, you know, there is,
00:48:28there are so many things that are, that are different, but you're still asking someone to take
00:48:33part of what they've earned and, you know, give it to you for your show, for your record,
00:48:39for your t-shirt, whatever it's going to be.
00:48:41And you can't take that for granted.
00:48:43And I think it's really important for artists to be, you know, real about the work involved.
00:48:50And as a, one of my final questions to you, I, I'm curious about CD Baby's next chapter.
00:48:56So CD Baby was recently part of the downtown acquisition.
00:48:58It's now under Virgin, which is under UMG, a little bit of a Russian doll.
00:49:03It's true.
00:49:04It's true.
00:49:05Yeah.
00:49:05And I'm wondering if that means-
00:49:07We're still here.
00:49:07Yeah.
00:49:07I wonder if that means anything different for CD Baby.
00:49:10You know, it really so far has not.
00:49:13We have been, like I said, I've been in my job for about two and a half years and we've
00:49:18been really looking so much at what, what's been working well at the company and the sort
00:49:23of the loyalty, again, of, of the artists that, that trust us to distribute their music.
00:49:28And we absolutely don't take that for granted, but we also had to look at the things that
00:49:32we were doing that, you know, artists didn't necessarily feel that we now, even before this,
00:49:39you know, new Virgin world that we, we are living in, you know, using the same technical
00:49:45supply chain, if you will, that other sister companies of ours within previously downtown,
00:49:51like Fuga.
00:49:52So finding ways to be a little bit more efficient in things that artists don't see day to day,
00:49:59and then find a way to be more supportive in ways that they do.
00:50:03I mean, a lot of artists in, in our, you know, sort of zone of the industry are frustrated.
00:50:10They're freaked out.
00:50:11They don't know why things are like they are.
00:50:13They don't know why their song got flagged for this or that, and, and they want someone
00:50:17to tell them.
00:50:18And I think we've tried to focus on ways to A, improve some of those fundamental experiences
00:50:25so they don't have as much frustration and then be able to respond to it more successfully.
00:50:32And I think the way we're thinking about it is like, how can we be a partner to artists
00:50:37as they grow?
00:50:38So, and again, being so flexible, our terms are like, you say you want the stuff down,
00:50:43we'll take it down.
00:50:44Like, you know, if you want to move, you can move.
00:50:47But we hope that will be a place that people can, will stay with us.
00:50:51And if they have new opportunities that they'll be able to make, again, like decisions that
00:50:56are on their terms.
00:50:58Yeah.
00:50:58Yeah.
00:50:58And I guess as a final question, I post this to a few guests.
00:51:01Um, is it easier or harder than ever to be an independent artist today?
00:51:07It's just so different.
00:51:09I mean, it really, I know, I hope, I don't want to be able to have a cop out on
00:51:12that,
00:51:12but you know, it is, it, it really is.
00:51:16I'm sure in many ways it's harder because there are so many artists making music.
00:51:23And then there's so many other things that we're like trying to wrap our heads around.
00:51:27Um, and I think that's one of the things also as, as part of our kind of repositioning
00:51:32or represent, representing, um, what CD Baby offers is to help artists that work with us
00:51:39navigate this time with a little bit more ease.
00:51:42And, you know, I think if we, again, we don't take it for granted that we've been around
00:51:46for 28 years, but hopefully that gives us a little bit of credibility that we've been
00:51:50able to weather this.
00:51:51And if we say things that are like, this is why the DSPs are doing what they're doing, it'll
00:51:56help them understand it and maybe make some better choices and not make, you know, and
00:52:00fewer mistakes.
00:52:01Cause that's a lot of what we navigate as people just being confused and, oh, I thought I had
00:52:07to do this.
00:52:07Or someone told me that if I did that, I would have so many more streams.
00:52:11Like, no, don't do that.
00:52:12Oh yeah.
00:52:12The independent playlist promoter, do not pay someone on Fiverr to get you on playlists.
00:52:17No.
00:52:18It happens unfortunately too often.
00:52:20It really does.
00:52:20I think it's well-meaning artists, but they just don't know.
00:52:22There's a vulnerability that, you know, is, is, you know, easy to take advantage of and,
00:52:27and we want to help people not be taken advantage of and give them better experience.
00:52:32So I think in that way, it's more complicated because you sometimes feel like you have to
00:52:39have a PhD to understand what's happening in the music industry.
00:52:42I mean, lawyers who come from other, you know, categories of, of business look at our industry
00:52:46like, what are you talking about?
00:52:48This doesn't make any sense.
00:52:48Right.
00:52:49So why would a, you know, an artist who is, you know, in their early twenties and just
00:52:55super passionate about making music know the ins and outs of this complex business and
00:53:01industry.
00:53:03But it was hard in the, in back in the day too, for, you know, different ways.
00:53:07So.
00:53:08Yeah.
00:53:08Yeah.
00:53:08Well, I think independent artists should check out Billboard on the record so they can learn
00:53:12more.
00:53:12No, absolutely.
00:53:13I mean, the resources that, that artists have to, to do the work and understand are,
00:53:19are infinite.
00:53:20And, and I think that's a big plus.
00:53:23Yeah.
00:53:23My only thing is like, now there's almost so many like music business content creators
00:53:27and some of them are just like straight up wrong.
00:53:29Uh, that's a discussion for another day.
00:53:31Yes.
00:53:32I don't want to.
00:53:33Well, I mean, maybe it's something like the seal of, you know, like the, the might, you
00:53:39might not know about it, but like the good housekeeping seal of approval, right?
00:53:42Like there's a way to like have some zone of validation that, you know, this is like
00:53:48not just Gen.ai created content and it's not wrong.
00:53:52Yeah.
00:53:53Yeah.
00:53:53Well, okay.
00:53:54Molly, do you have time for some games?
00:53:56I do.
00:53:56Okay.
00:53:56Let's play.
00:53:57All right.
00:53:57So this is something that we call spin the record.
00:54:00We do it every time we do a pod.
00:54:03All right.
00:54:03I will have you spin this beautiful wheel.
00:54:05Okay.
00:54:05I will read it out to you because it's in my hand.
00:54:07Yeah.
00:54:07I don't have my glasses on.
00:54:08So that's one of my, okay.
00:54:10Is that good enough?
00:54:13From back in the early nineties, what do you think was the hardest part about being an
00:54:18independent artist?
00:54:20Well, we didn't make any money.
00:54:22So I guess, you know, that's the flip side, you know, we would, we would like spend our own
00:54:27money.
00:54:27We would beg, borrow, and steal.
00:54:29We did everything.
00:54:29We slept on floors.
00:54:31We, you know, didn't like the, the economics of that work were really pretty bleak, but we
00:54:38didn't care.
00:54:39You know, we didn't care.
00:54:41And that's the beauty of being in that stage of life where, you know, sleep is not a priority
00:54:47and water is not a priority.
00:54:49You know, that was so, but I think our health was compromised a few times.
00:54:54Oh, absolutely.
00:54:55I feel like your early twenties is about just going for it.
00:54:58Like trying not to make, make those mistakes that you're like, you know, why did I do
00:55:02that?
00:55:02I should have, but, but it was, it was totally worth it.
00:55:05Yeah.
00:55:06Okay.
00:55:06Let's spend one more time.
00:55:07Let's see.
00:55:08Oh, what is the biggest learning lesson you learned as an independent artist?
00:55:14Sorry, I'm pausing just because, you know, my career I've, I've had being an artist as,
00:55:19you know, a core part of it, but I've also been on the business side of things and, and
00:55:25so they're, they're intertwined.
00:55:27But I think that the hardest thing was what we were kind of talking about, you know, not
00:55:34being able to navigate the changes in the industry and, and sort of doubling down on
00:55:41the ways we were working at our company and then getting in over our heads and not having
00:55:47it be sustainable.
00:55:48And I think being able to recalibrate and say, all right, we have to change things.
00:55:54They're not the model that you started, you know, originally, um, it just isn't the one
00:56:00that's going to work anymore.
00:56:01And to say that that's okay, even if it's, it's really hard.
00:56:06Um, and sometimes you have to make things smaller and you have to make really, you know,
00:56:11tough calls, but I think having a bit of bravery around that would have been probably
00:56:17a really good thing to do.
00:56:19Okay.
00:56:20Could you spin it again?
00:56:22I just moved it this time.
00:56:26Let's pretend you're playing a gig and you can get anything you want to on a writer.
00:56:29What would be on the writer?
00:56:31Well, we do, you know, so we were just playing some shows and, um, it's hysterical that the,
00:56:36our singer, um, she's kind of, she runs the writer and that's as it should be, right?
00:56:41That's fine.
00:56:42So we have water, like our bass player needs beer.
00:56:45Um, I like a glass of red wine now and then she needs pineapple juice.
00:56:49She needs trail mix.
00:56:51She needs all of these sorts of specific things for her voice and stuff.
00:56:56And I'm, I'm totally here for it.
00:56:57Okay.
00:56:58We also like sparkling water.
00:56:59Okay.
00:56:59This is a very tame writer.
00:57:01I thought it was going to be boring now, but that's how old we are.
00:57:03But you know, back in the day we would, you know, we would maybe have like a bottle of
00:57:07booze, but we also, there was this, um, iced tea brand called Ted Java.
00:57:12Oh, yes.
00:57:14You know, and I, I would always put that on there.
00:57:16Cause it was like, you know, probably, you know, max caffeine.
00:57:20It was pre monster drinks and things like that, you know, but low-cal high caffeine or
00:57:25whatever.
00:57:26Yeah.
00:57:26Have you ever tried a Celsius?
00:57:28You know, I haven't.
00:57:29I don't like those.
00:57:30I don't think you should.
00:57:30I don't like those things.
00:57:31Yeah.
00:57:32It's scary.
00:57:32Like, I feel like it should be illegal how much caffeine is in that thing.
00:57:36Like, I feel like you're having like heart palpitations.
00:57:38I have enough stress to manage.
00:57:40I'm good.
00:57:41Yeah.
00:57:42Okay.
00:57:42Molly, let's move on to our final game, which is what would you cue?
00:57:46So I'm going to name out some scenarios.
00:57:48I just need you to pick one song per prompt.
00:57:50Okay.
00:57:50Okay.
00:57:51So what would you cue to take you back to your childhood?
00:57:55I would cue Gloria Gaynor, I will survive.
00:57:58I had a long commute growing up, and so we listened to the radio, and that was one of
00:58:04the songs that was like, you know, popular at the time.
00:58:06And I learned the words probably when I was eight years old.
00:58:09I love that.
00:58:09So I know almost every word to I will survive.
00:58:11And it's a good song.
00:58:12Yeah.
00:58:13It holds up.
00:58:14What would you cue to represent your favorite era of music?
00:58:17My favorite era of music, I would say, would be when I was really, when I was learning
00:58:25about music.
00:58:26So it might be Nirvana, like something off of Bleach.
00:58:33Is that your favorite one?
00:58:34I think so.
00:58:35Yeah.
00:58:35I mean, I love Nevermind, but I had like, you know, the demos were passed around early
00:58:39on.
00:58:40So I had the demo before the album came out on the tape.
00:58:43And so, yeah, I love all those songs.
00:58:45Wow.
00:58:46Okay.
00:58:46Okay.
00:58:47Songs from Bleach.
00:58:48I love it.
00:58:49Okay.
00:58:49And what would you cue to remember the best concert you've ever been to?
00:58:53Let's just stick with the theme because one of the best concerts was also Beat Happening,
00:58:59Nirvana, and the Melvins at a Grange Hall in Olympia.
00:59:03And so, and Beat Happening was my favorite band.
00:59:05They were, and they're probably, you know, what inspired me the most as a musician in
00:59:10a way because it was something that was so accessible and so straightforward, but so powerful.
00:59:15And so that's like the, the sweatiest, you know, Grange Hall with 300 people.
00:59:21And so probably Black Candy by Beat Happening.
00:59:24I love that.
00:59:25Okay.
00:59:25And then last but not least, what would you cue to tell us about a favorite independent
00:59:29artist of yours?
00:59:30Then or now?
00:59:31Right.
00:59:33So I would cue the, what the new single, and I'm blanking on it.
00:59:39I'm so sorry, from the Linda Lindas.
00:59:41Oh, yeah.
00:59:41They just signed a Warner.
00:59:42So that's a, it's technically, but I, I don't know their deal.
00:59:45I think that's what's so interesting right now, right?
00:59:47Like when artists are signing to majors, does that mean they're not independent anymore?
00:59:51When we don't see their actual contracts, I think a lot of them are doing distribution
00:59:55deals.
00:59:56So yeah, I think it's a gray area.
00:59:59Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll still call them out.
01:00:01I do love the Linda Lindas.
01:00:03And yeah, no, it is one of those things where like, we didn't even get into it, but like,
01:00:07yeah, what, what does it even mean to be independent?
01:00:09Well, maybe we'll come back in a year and see what's changed.
01:00:12Oh my gosh.
01:00:12I'm sure a lot of stuff, but Molly, thank you so much for coming.
01:00:16Thank you for having me, Kristen.
01:00:16It was great.
01:00:17All right.
01:00:18Thank you so much to Molly Newman for joining me to talk about the evolution of the independent
01:00:21artist career, her time in Bratmobile, and what she's up to now at CD Baby.
01:00:26And thank you for listening to this week's episode of On The Record.
01:00:29If you liked today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or on our TikTok page at Billboard
01:00:33On The Record, where you can find new clips of the show every single week.
01:00:37We'd also appreciate it if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform.
01:00:40All these things help On The Record grow bigger and better than ever.
01:00:44Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week for another peek behind the
01:00:47curtain of the music business.
01:00:49I'll see you then.
01:01:03I'll see you then.