- 10 minutes ago
Sampling has shaped some of the most influential music of the last 50 years — and Questlove has been there for much of its evolution. The musician and music historian joins Billboard’s Kristin Robinson on Billboard On The Record for a conversation about his Earth, Wind & Fire documentary — Earth, Wind & Fire (To Be Celestial vs. That’s the Weight of the World) — the history of sampling and his work as a music historian. From the lawsuit against Biz Markie, which made sampling more difficult and expensive, to AI-generated crate digging and the surge of catalog sales, Questlove shares his insight into sampling’s evolution and how it changed the music business.
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Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Love what you hear? Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Billboard On The Record.
Love what you hear? Follow Billboard On The Record on Instagram, TikTok, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Youtube @billboard so you never miss an episode.
Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Category
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MusicTranscript
00:00:00We're going to talk about the history of sampling.
00:00:01Really what a record is, is you're trying to capture a compelling performance.
00:00:06An audio picture, a Polaroid, a moment in time.
00:00:09I think the reason why sampling works is because the idea of a community of people creating something together.
00:00:16The June of 1988 release of Public Enemies, It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back,
00:00:24is the moment, that eureka moment.
00:00:27Dad has that record.
00:00:28Wait, dad has that record.
00:00:30And suddenly, my dad's entire record collection comes alive.
00:00:34A lot of older music is changing hands, and as a consequence, there's a lot of people who've just bought
00:00:39catalogs
00:00:39that are looking for ways to revive it and to bring it back into, you know, kind of popular culture
00:00:45once again.
00:00:46And so they're reaching out to folks like you.
00:00:48That's one way to put it.
00:00:49There is a company that's actually like, hey, we have a plentiful catalog.
00:00:53Come use our work.
00:00:54Second to the legalization of weed, it's something appealing of the outlawness of it all.
00:01:00There's also people like, you know, cops on the highway with the radar, like, I dare you.
00:01:06I double dog dare you.
00:01:12Sampling.
00:01:12It's one of the most important inventions in modern music history.
00:01:16Pioneered by DJs in the 1970s, including early proponents like DJ Kool Herc, it became the early bedrock of hip
00:01:23-hop and a tool to recycle the most iconic moments in recorded music into something brand new.
00:01:29Over the years, some have vilified the practice, and others have adored it.
00:01:34And it's also led to an eye-watering number of copyright infringement lawsuits in the process.
00:01:39But still, it's arguably one of the most impactful innovations in modern popular music.
00:01:45So today we are joined by drummer, podcaster, documentarian, historian, etc.
00:01:50He does it all.
00:01:51Questlove.
00:01:52To talk about its origins and why it's such an essential part of the fabric of music today.
00:01:58Questlove, welcome to On The Record.
00:01:59Thank you so much for being here.
00:02:02Thank you for having me.
00:02:03So I'm excited to have you on today.
00:02:05We're going to talk about the history of sampling, which is an area of the music industry that I'm so
00:02:08fascinated by.
00:02:10And we're also going to talk about your work as a music historian.
00:02:13You have a new documentary out on Earth, Wind & Fire on HBO Max, which is super exciting.
00:02:19And I just have to say, I feel like I really respect the work that you do as a music
00:02:27historian.
00:02:28I feel like as a music journalist, I sometimes feel like I'm trying to capture the things that one day
00:02:34music historians will look at.
00:02:36Maybe like 20 years, 30 years from now.
00:02:40Well, thank you.
00:02:40That's the highest compliment.
00:02:42Yeah, yeah.
00:02:43And I'm just wondering, like, when was that moment in your career where you decided, I need to spend some
00:02:49serious time dedicated to music history?
00:02:53Because I know that you have a busy schedule.
00:02:55Probably the most significant development when The Roots released our fourth album, Things Fall Apart, for me was the development
00:03:05of OK Player as a website, which, weird enough,
00:03:11it started off as a website, like, hey, come to The Roots website.
00:03:15But then suddenly it became social media where, like, people weren't coming there to talk about The Roots.
00:03:23And suddenly it just became like a giant playground for musical opinions.
00:03:28And then, like, three years into it, suddenly, like, I started noticing journalists were coming in and basing a lot
00:03:35of their articles.
00:03:35Like, I managed to capture lightning in a bottle where all the music nerds of, you know, the time period
00:03:44were there, you know, spewing their opinions.
00:03:47So I would consider that almost like my training for Know-It-All University.
00:03:57You know, when the opportunity fell into my lap, two gentlemen had come here at, you know, I'm at 30
00:04:05Rock at The Tonight Show right now.
00:04:07They had come here to pitch me an idea of, you know, they claim that they have 50 hours of
00:04:15all this footage of this so-called Blackwood Stock Harlem Festival.
00:04:19And I should direct it.
00:04:22And I thought they were pulling my leg.
00:04:24I literally thought they were just lying to my, well, she's my manager now, but back then she was my
00:04:30assistant.
00:04:31I thought they were just trying to pull a fast one on her so that they could come in to
00:04:36see Fish perform.
00:04:38Because, you know, when Fish comes to the Tonight Show, fans are, like, sleeping around the block.
00:04:43And I'm like, you idiot.
00:04:45They're just trying to get to see Fish.
00:04:46They could direct a movie.
00:04:47And then, weird enough, I think when the pandemic came, like, in my mind, like, I started that project just
00:04:55as, like, okay, here's something real cool I'm going to do.
00:04:59And then people will forget about it.
00:05:00And I'll do an album.
00:05:04But I think timing is everything.
00:05:08And doing it in the pandemic allowed me to really put a lot of emotion and humanity into it.
00:05:16Yeah, I'll just say that it allowed me, like, doing the final quarter of that film during the pandemic allowed
00:05:24me to really, it allowed us to turn it from just a collection of good performances into something really emotional.
00:05:33And it's sort of been speedballing there.
00:05:36And, you know, Earth, Wind & Fire is my fourth film.
00:05:39So.
00:05:40It's incredible.
00:05:40I just want to, I just want to do stuff that I would like to see myself.
00:05:44Yeah.
00:05:45Well, I mean, okay, with the Earth, Wind & Fire film, I was so impressed by the amount of concert
00:05:50footage that you guys had.
00:05:52I'm wondering what the process is like to get all of those old videos.
00:05:56And also, there's so much of Maurice just talking to camera, which was wonderful.
00:06:00And it felt like it really complemented all of the talking heads that are current that were also speaking for
00:06:05the film.
00:06:06So, where did y'all find all that archive?
00:06:08Lucky for us, I started the process probably eight months before we started shooting.
00:06:15So, there's two things I wanted to walk away with.
00:06:17One, I just wanted to go through all the archives to see what I could find.
00:06:21And it was everything I ever hoped for.
00:06:24I mean, he's very sentimental, so he kept everything, rough drafts of lyrics, all of his diaries, the amount of
00:06:31times that they've shot concert footage, you know, recording trucks to make live albums that could possibly or possibly not
00:06:41have made it.
00:06:43And most important, besides the archives, it's almost like method acting.
00:06:50I wanted to turn into Maurice White, so I asked his son, like, yo, can you go through his library?
00:06:57I want to read every book he read.
00:06:59I want to see what his daily routine was, what his diet was.
00:07:03So, pretty much, like, I was following, you know, I was reading Ram Dass.
00:07:07It's weird, it spread to me, so now, like, I get up every morning and meditate, I get up and
00:07:13I write affirmations, I do my breathing exercises, I used to laugh at people, like, oh, you get up at
00:07:215 a.m. to do yoga?
00:07:22You know, or whatever, now, I'm the person I used to laugh at, so, you know.
00:07:28Yeah, that's very L.A. of you as well.
00:07:31I mean, we gotta have you back on next time you're out in L.A.
00:07:35Yeah.
00:07:35Well, I think that's so fascinating, the idea of method acting to try to get into, or to walk around
00:07:41in the shoes of your subject.
00:07:43For me, I think, you know, this is kind of a tagline that I've been using when I was promoting
00:07:49this, which is basically, I wanted to figure out how this band successfully tricked us all into eating our vegetables.
00:07:58But that's the thing, like, they were so positive, and if someone comes to you in the name of positivity
00:08:02or whatever, you get cynical, and you have your guard up.
00:08:06But all their music, all of Earth, Wind, Fire's music is nothing but singing affirmations.
00:08:11So, you're the audience member.
00:08:13You don't know that you're changing your own life by singing their lyrics.
00:08:18And so, you know, I was kind of hoping that maybe the osmosis effect would rub off on people watching
00:08:27it.
00:08:28Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:08:30Well, I want to talk about the history of sampling.
00:08:33This is just kind of one of those niches in the music industry that I've always been fascinated by.
00:08:36And, I mean, going back to the very earliest days of sampling, you have folks like DJ Kool Herc, who
00:08:42are pioneers.
00:08:44And, I mean, from the very beginning of sampling, artists like Earth, Wind, and Fire, James Brown, these iconic figures
00:08:53were sampled so often, and they are still sampled today.
00:08:56And there's kind of those few artists that just get sampled over and over again.
00:09:00I'm wondering why you think that is.
00:09:04I think the object of music and why we collect records, you know, first of all, I think that records
00:09:12are maybe a metaphorical protest against time moving forward.
00:09:23Because really what a record is, is you're capturing, you're trying to capture a compelling performance, an audio picture, a
00:09:33Polaroid, a moment in time, and it sticks with you.
00:09:36I think the reason why sampling works is because, you know, I think sound vibration, I believe that the idea
00:09:45of a community of people creating something together.
00:09:50If you, if you're a sports head and you watch the last dance, like the story of the Chicago Bulls,
00:09:55and you see the synergy of how that team works together, that's, I believe, that's the, maybe the underlying reasoning
00:10:06for why we use old music to make new music.
00:10:14And, you know, and, you know, occasionally I think, as we search for perfection and perfection and perfection, and I
00:10:23know now there's the whole debate of, you know, like, AI versus making it yourself.
00:10:30You know, microwaving versus cooking a full, full-fledged meal by yourself.
00:10:39To me, there's always been magic in just, there's magic in imperfection, there's magic in capturing synergy, like a human
00:10:50emotion, there's magic in that, and that's why we do it.
00:10:52So, you know, so, you know, as far as the history sampling is concerned, one of the very first people
00:10:56to sort of capture sampling in a way that we know it now, I mean, recorded music has always been,
00:11:03you know, if you listen to Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, there's a moment right after Flying High in the
00:11:12Friendly Sky, in which, you know, he's, he, they're playing a kind of keyboard that captures a woman's voice singing
00:11:21opera.
00:11:25You know, that's like one of the earliest examples of capturing a recorded voice, but, of course, the sampling as
00:11:30we know it, there's a, you know, a gentleman named Trevor Horn, who's a producer, he was once a member
00:11:38of this, this unit called Art of Noise.
00:11:45He had the privilege of having access to this device called a Fairlight, and a Fairlight was so expensive that
00:11:53only certain few could afford it.
00:11:57You know, at one point, it was just Stevie Wonder, Herbie Hancock, Quincy Jones, Trevor, and maybe, like, there's, like,
00:12:05two other people, but, you know, if you had $100,000 on you...
00:12:10Not many do.
00:12:12...eager or to Fairlight, and so there's a moment in the group Yes, their song Own Over a Lonely Heart,
00:12:20where they have a breakdown with these drums.
00:12:23Boom, ba-ba-da-do, boom, boom, cap-a-ga-ga, boom, ba-ba-da-do, boom, ba-da-da
00:12:30-da-da-da-da-da-da, that's a, that's like a five-second snippet of a song called Cool Is
00:12:38Back.
00:12:39By a group called Funk Incorporated.
00:12:42They're covering Cool and the Gang's Cool Is Back, and so we, you know, I didn't know it at the
00:12:47time, but that's literally, like, the first time that I'm hearing a breakbeat being used, something old to create something
00:12:56new.
00:12:57And, of course, Marley Mall will start pushing it forward when he discovers that, oh, I can use a snare
00:13:06drum from this record and a kick drum from that record to create something.
00:13:09And then, of course, a gentleman named Paul C., who gets his hands on the SB-1200, he takes it
00:13:18further, and he's like a mentor to what we will later known as, like, the Renaissance era of hip-hop.
00:13:24Like, the large professor who will then pass it on to Q-tip and Tripod Quest and then, yeah, premiering
00:13:30Pete Rock and, you know, so it's, it's, it's, it's a slow kind of domino effect that happens.
00:13:39But, yeah, really sampling is just the idea of capturing human synergy and energy to create magic.
00:13:51Yeah, when would you say, because you were talking about the Fairlight, which was a great shout, it was very
00:13:56expensive.
00:13:57And so it was really only in the hands of someone who had already made it by the point that
00:14:02they bought it.
00:14:03Yeah, someone rich, yeah.
00:14:05Where do you think the point was where it became democratized and became just such an embedded part of early
00:14:12hip-
00:14:13Yeah, yeah.
00:14:13Yeah, well, you know, the, the, first there was the SB-12, which I believe the SB-12 could hold
00:14:21a few seconds of sampling.
00:14:23And if you were innovative, I mean, you, again, you could just take a snippet of something, but it wasn't
00:14:31until the SB-1200 in which it allowed you more time.
00:14:38But I'll say that for a lot of us, the June of 1988 release of Public Enemies, It Takes a
00:14:51Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, in my opinion, is the moment, that, that Eureka moment, that back to
00:15:02the future Doc Brown flex capacitor, aha, moment in which, for me at least,
00:15:09listening to that record, and each song is crammed with, like, some songs have seven samples, some songs have 20
00:15:18samples in it.
00:15:19And when I heard it the first time, just like the, the, the, the, the dopamine effect was like, wait
00:15:27a minute, dad has that record.
00:15:29Wait, dad has that record.
00:15:31Yo, my dad has that record.
00:15:32And then I'm going through, now suddenly my very boring dad's record collection, you know, 3,000 records of which
00:15:41maybe like I gravitated towards maybe 200.
00:15:46Yeah.
00:15:46You know, yeah, I'll listen to the Jackson 5 and maybe Bill Withers, but whatever, this Blue Note jazz stuff,
00:15:52forget that.
00:15:53And suddenly my dad's entire record collection comes alive because listening to Public Enemy, he was like, name that tune.
00:16:01Oh, I know where that, I know where that bass line's from.
00:16:04I know where that part's from.
00:16:06So suddenly that reels you in.
00:16:09And then, you know, there's a, there's a period between 88 and 91 where it's just like the Wild West,
00:16:17you know, the Gold Rush story.
00:16:18Or maybe this era of AI where it's just like, nobody's policing us.
00:16:24And suddenly the Beastie Boys released Paul's Boutique, Three Feet High and Rising by De La Soul.
00:16:32It just spiraled out of control.
00:16:34And of course, with AI also, you know, they were like, wait, we have to have some walls here and
00:16:40you have to get permission before you just take someone's.
00:16:44Yeah.
00:16:44You know, creative DNA to make your own thing.
00:16:47So, yeah, to me, between 88 and 91, there will never be a time like that moment in which your
00:16:55entire record collection gets just opposed into a song.
00:17:00Yeah, yeah.
00:17:01And then, of course, in 1991, I'm sure some listeners might not know this.
00:17:05There was a big lawsuit against Biz Markey and his record.
00:17:08Yeah, yeah.
00:17:09And his record label.
00:17:10Yeah, and the weird, it's the weirdest way.
00:17:12Because really, what Biz was trying to read, it wasn't necessarily that it was the sample.
00:17:20So, the deal is, is that, you know, pop songs really weren't like the pop music effect of song making.
00:17:32Really didn't get honed perfectly into hip-hop until, I'll say, yeah, you know, there's a few moments in 1991,
00:17:4092 where there's, like, pop song structure.
00:17:43Like, I'll say that, you know, for people, especially now that people are watching the Jay-Z documentary and, you
00:17:50know, the insane amount of people, I got to explain why Rick Rubin's interviewing Jay-Z and why he's so
00:17:56important to music.
00:17:57You know, Rick Rubin's biggest contribution to the music is the fact that through LL Cool J, like, Rick Rubin
00:18:07whittles down what was once, like, before LL Cool J, most hip-hop songs were made for the club.
00:18:15You know, eight-minute songs, 12-minute songs.
00:18:18And Rick Rubin's like, I come from the school of the Beatles, like, let's have 16-bar verses and a
00:18:25chorus, 16 bars and a chorus, and then we faded three minutes, which was like, so when people want to
00:18:31know, like, why LL is so important, like, LL literally created the standardized album format so that songs can be
00:18:41three minutes and four minutes.
00:18:42And, you know, in the case of the Bismarck Key, Gilbert O'Sullivan, Alone Again Naturally situation, a lot of these
00:18:52pioneering groups that were developing hip-hop before it came on Wax, most notably, like, the Cold Crush Brothers, the
00:19:01Fantastic Romantic Five, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, those groups, kind of in a weird-out Yankovic way, without
00:19:11the humor,
00:19:12would take the format of pop songs on the radio, which, if you're in the 70s, like, I'm from a
00:19:21generation in which, you know, not only is Marvin Gaye and James Brown getting pumped into us, but so is
00:19:27Captain and Tennille and Glyn Campbell's Rhinestone Cowboy and Gilbert O'Sullivan's Alone Again Naturally.
00:19:37So, Biz was trying to play homage to the Cold Crush Brothers, who used to do a routine based on
00:19:44Alone Again Naturally.
00:19:47And kind of the double-edged sword is, especially with British rock and American rock, like, all that stuff is
00:19:56based on, like, there's no music that's not derivative of another time.
00:20:03So, rock took all of its notes, look at Led Zeppelin's, the history of those records in the 30s.
00:20:09So, they were sampling as well.
00:20:12The only difference is that once we do it back, it's like, we're getting sued.
00:20:16So, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's that exact sound recording piece that, like, I think really got them in the end,
00:20:22but Biz Markie, yes, to just summarize that point, yeah, Biz and his record label got sued for sampling, and
00:20:30that ultimately, the results of that lawsuit made it pretty cost-prohibitive for people to sample.
00:20:34You had to really think twice, like, am I going to be able to license this song?
00:20:39Yeah, I mean, well, it's not that expensive, but a lot of these artists are on independent labels, you know,
00:20:46and again, people really don't hold hip-hop in a high art light.
00:20:51So, it's almost like junk bonds, like, a get-rich-quick scheme, you know, and so, yeah, right now, the
00:21:02privileged few that can afford to sample still do so, but as a result, and, you know, I say this
00:21:10now, especially to record executives who are begging me to figure out ways to wake up their catalog.
00:21:18Oh, I was going to get there.
00:21:20Yeah, like, oh, after this movie, like, oh, my God, can you do something with this artist so that we
00:21:27can sell it again?
00:21:27And I tell them, hey, remember sampling and hip-hop?
00:21:32Like, even, I grew up in a household with 3,000 records already, and it wasn't until hip-hop came
00:21:40along that I saw the value in that, but there's millions of others like me.
00:21:44When a tripod quest releases the low-end theory, yes, we would go to the sample credits, and now we're
00:21:51buying Galt McDermott, and we're buying Lee Morgan, and we're buying, you know, so...
00:21:58Yeah, sampling has always been a way to promote records as well, or, like, it brings them back into public
00:22:03consciousness.
00:22:04Yeah, it just refurbishes and recycles it.
00:22:07So now that my generation is now the gatekeepers, you know, people my age are now the executives.
00:22:15There's an understanding now that, you know, people don't just see it as, like, this clutch of pearls.
00:22:22You're not sampling my music, you hoodlums, you know.
00:22:27So hopefully maybe we can bring it back to that format.
00:22:36You know, I mean, it's happening now.
00:22:38There's definitely, like, an underground network, especially, like, in light of Jay Dilla's work on this earth, you know, and
00:22:47now that he's not, now that he's 20 years gone, and people are discovering the magic of Jay Dilla, like,
00:22:53there's a whole generation of people.
00:22:55I mean, they call it lo-fi.
00:22:57I never called it lo-fi, but through the lo-fi movement, you're seeing the return of it.
00:23:02Yeah, well, okay, so I was thinking long and hard about where I'd place the marker of, like, where I
00:23:08feel like really kind of our modern era of music production started, and I think there's, like, a few arguments
00:23:14where you could place that marker.
00:23:16I was thinking sampling could be one of those moments, sampling synths, drum machines, like, all coming out within about
00:23:2110 years or so of each other.
00:23:24That could be one marker, or you could go to early 2000s where DAWs started to be adopted and mass
00:23:30scale.
00:23:30I'm wondering, if you had to place a marker where there was a big turning point in music production, where
00:23:37would you place it?
00:23:38The Big Bang of Technology, in my opinion, probably starts in 1971.
00:23:48So, my third film about Sly Stone, one of his biggest innovations is the fact that he was one of
00:23:56the first people to use a drum machine.
00:23:59You know, it's just that people were using a drum machine more or less as a metronome purpose, you know,
00:24:09to keep the drummer from fluctuating fast and slow and to keep everybody on the same rhythmic wavelength.
00:24:16But Sly found sort of these innovative ways to utilize the drum machine.
00:24:26So, I'll say, like, in 1971, with Sly and the Family Stones, there was a riot going on.
00:24:34It kind of introduces a postmodern electric culture, if you will, and suddenly everyone started following suit.
00:24:47And I also think that the development of the group Kraftwerk, German Outfit Kraftwerk in, you know, 74, 75, them
00:24:58doing a lot of experience with synthesized music and whatnot.
00:25:05And, you know, pretty much, I will say, as far as the 80s are concerned, and yes, you know, Herbie
00:25:13Hancock was the first to use, like, a Linn drum machine and that sort of thing.
00:25:17But for me, what makes Prince's 1999 record such a pivotal moment in an 80s production, you know, I first
00:25:32heard that song when I was shopping for school clothes in, like, September of 82.
00:25:38And I froze my tracks in the changing room.
00:25:43Like, I literally stand there, like, while I was changing my clothes to put clothes on.
00:25:49It sounded like music that if you asked a band to play it back to you, it wouldn't sound like
00:25:56a sound.
00:25:56I always said it sounded like space aliens playing.
00:25:59Like, I've never heard a drum machine program like that.
00:26:02I've never heard synthesizers that sounded like that.
00:26:05And if you were to ask a regular band to play 1999, it would not sound like that.
00:26:13Like, and so, for me, the reason why Prince is such an innovator is that he figured out how to
00:26:23turn primitive-sounding electronics.
00:26:27He made it sound human.
00:26:29Yeah.
00:26:29But also made it a challenge to create.
00:26:32So, yeah, I believe that all that has to be in your vocabulary before you even start with hip-hop.
00:26:39Yeah.
00:26:39Yeah.
00:26:40No, those are great points.
00:26:41To go back to those early lawsuits about sampling and, you know, how that really changed the game from that
00:26:48small period of, I think you said 1988 to 91 or so.
00:26:52Where everyone was kind of Wild West sampling whatever they wanted to, to that post that Bismarcky lawsuit.
00:26:58I'm wondering, do you think that, I was trying to think through this, I feel like those had an incredibly
00:27:05strong chilling effect on music creation, those lawsuits around sampling.
00:27:10I'm wondering, do you think that there are, you know, a bunch of records out there that just never got
00:27:14put out due to the fact that, you know, they went down the line with sampling.
00:27:18And they're like, you know what, too much of a hassle.
00:27:20We're going to hold this one back.
00:27:22Yeah.
00:27:22I mean, I'll say this much.
00:27:28The unit that Public Enemy produced, they're called the Bomb Squad.
00:27:33There's nine albums in their production canon that I almost feel became the blueprint for everything that came afterwards.
00:27:43You know, I mean, there's even EDM electronic producers that will probably say, like, if you ask them, like, what's
00:27:52your North Star?
00:27:53They're probably going to say, you know, the moment that I heard Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet.
00:27:59So, you know, after the success of Fear of a Black Planet, I'll say that their production on Ice Cube's
00:28:07very first record, America's Most Wanted, is a great example of that.
00:28:13Not to mention, you know, Dr. Dre was damn near in second place in terms of, like, kamikaze sampling of
00:28:26that level.
00:28:27His was more nuanced in a way that you could digest it more, whereas, you know, the Bomb Squad was
00:28:33just straight up, like, anything goes.
00:28:36Like, cram it in, we'll throw it in there.
00:28:38Thank God for, like, with streaming culture now, there's two albums that came from the Bomb Squad that I think
00:28:46are just what sort of, like,
00:28:54Polak's art paintings, you know, like, when he throws paint on the walls and just see what sticks.
00:29:01There's two albums.
00:29:02One is by a Public Enemy associate called Son of Berserk.
00:29:08The name of the group is Son of Berserk featuring No Self-Control in the band.
00:29:12And the other album on that label is a group of white teenagers called the Young Black Teenagers.
00:29:20Oh.
00:29:20And, yeah.
00:29:22What a name.
00:29:23Yeah.
00:29:24I mean, you know, Controversy was, like, headed out the gate as far as their marketing was concerned.
00:29:30But those two albums, to me, are almost, like, you know, like, Pet Sounds got kind of overshadowed by Sgt.
00:29:42Peppers.
00:29:43Yeah.
00:29:43You know, and it didn't get its flowers until, like, almost 20 years later.
00:29:47Yep.
00:29:48I feel like the Son of Berserk and the Young Black Teenagers albums, from a production standpoint,
00:29:54or just some of the most innovative, I could teach a college course on why those albums are so mind
00:30:06-blowing that, you know, just went over people's heads.
00:30:09But, yeah, to me, those two albums are super important.
00:30:13How would you compare, perhaps, the chilling effect of these sample-related lawsuits to something like Blurred Lines, which is
00:30:19much more recent?
00:30:21You know, I think both of them had some effect on creation, but you tell me.
00:30:27I think Blurred Lines was being punished for, air quote, something else.
00:30:36You know, kind of the casual eye-rollness of it all, of that song.
00:30:45Yeah.
00:30:46But the idea of trying to capture a feeling.
00:30:52I'll give you an even better example.
00:30:54Sam Smith's Stay With Me is a great example where someone at Yale had, during the Stay With Me situation,
00:31:07if your listeners are familiar, basically, there was a thing where they were like, well, Sam Smith's Stay With Me,
00:31:16based on Tom Petty's I Won't Back Down.
00:31:21And this, either someone that went to Yale or Princeton, I think it's Yale, did this whole thing where they
00:31:27were like,
00:31:28similar to people who write fiction, there's really only nine places that you could logistically go with chord structures before
00:31:39you delve off into free jazz.
00:31:42Like, things that sonically or melodically don't make sense.
00:31:46Yeah.
00:31:46You know, like the blues.
00:31:48Everyone knows the blues is the first chord, the fifth chord, the fourth chord, and back to the first chord.
00:31:54That's sort of a slippery slope when you try to copyright a feeling.
00:32:04And so, yeah.
00:32:06Yeah, it's a slippery slope.
00:32:08Yeah, it's a slippery slope.
00:32:09And it's also just like, yeah, there are just some chord structures, some song structures, or some, I guess, key
00:32:15characteristics that define genres that really are not super, you know, comparable.
00:32:21Yeah, pretty much.
00:32:22Well, I'm curious, coming from your background as a drummer, do you think about sampling differently than you have seen
00:32:31other kind of producers or DJs primarily come at sampling?
00:32:36I promise you that at least 70% of all music created starts with the genesis of it is always,
00:32:49I like that song, but this is what I would do to it.
00:32:54And, you know, a great example is, okay, so I've been here at The Tonight Show for 18 years.
00:33:02And, you know, when people ask all the time, like, why do you guys stay there?
00:33:06Why do you stay there?
00:33:08This is the roots opportunity to stay in the gym, so to speak, to work out in the gym.
00:33:19And so there's two things that happen.
00:33:21One, you know, we never rehearse together as a band, so I kind of joke that The Tonight Show is
00:33:28guaranteed that we will rehearse as a band for six hours every week.
00:33:37You know, that's one.
00:33:38But also in creating music, I do a little game where I will put a random song on and subconsciously,
00:33:48like when they're first walking in,
00:33:50I always press play, and I'll turn the volume down low, because things seep in when it's subconscious.
00:33:58Yeah, it's a subliminal message.
00:34:00Right.
00:34:01And I'll stop it after 15 seconds, and I'll be like, all right, let's play something.
00:34:07Two, three, and.
00:34:08And nine times out of ten, it'll get its genesis or its start in what I was just playing.
00:34:18But then smart people will change the key.
00:34:23Okay, now let's slow the BPMs down.
00:34:29Let's do another rhythm.
00:34:30That's how songs are created.
00:34:31Sometimes I'll play a song backwards.
00:34:34And matter of fact, speaking of Earth, Wind, and Fire, they did that a few times, where I was like,
00:34:40wow, that sounds familiar.
00:34:41And then I'll ask them.
00:34:42They'll be like, oh, yeah, we ran out of ideas, so we played a song backwards.
00:34:46And I was like, aha, and I'll play backwards and hear the melody that they did.
00:34:50But, I mean, that's just, that's songwriting 101.
00:34:53Like, you know, some people will get in the dictionary and pick a word, and then it's just, you know,
00:35:01that type of exercise.
00:35:03Yeah, I gotta get that spark.
00:35:04One of the most interesting kind of pieces of sampling history to me is the Amen Break.
00:35:10So, for those who don't know the Amen Break, you've definitely heard it, if you don't know it.
00:35:15It's been in, God, I can't even imagine how many thousands of records at this point.
00:35:20If you listen to this Straight Outta Compton by N.W.A., that's probably most classic hip-hop fans' introduction
00:35:28to that breakbeat.
00:35:30Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:31So, yeah, Amen Break is a breakbeat.
00:35:33It was a sample of this B-side by a band called The Winstons.
00:35:37The Winstons, yeah.
00:35:38Yeah, yeah.
00:35:39And it was originally a song called Amen Brother.
00:35:42Kind of a forgotten song, comes back in a Salt-N-Pepa song, and then ends up in.
00:35:47I Desire, yeah.
00:35:47Yeah, yeah, and then ends up in Straight Outta Compton, and then it's just everywhere now.
00:35:52But weird enough, even Amen Brother is kind of secretly based on Curtis Mayfield's We're Winner.
00:36:02You know, same format.
00:36:05It's Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions, We're Winner.
00:36:08See, that's the thing, especially in the 60s, you were required not only to know a particular artist's song, but,
00:36:19you know, in James Brown's song, in James Brown's show, you would have to do cover songs of the day.
00:36:25So, James Brown is having Bobby Burt sing Signed, Silled, and Delivered by Stevie Wonder.
00:36:33He's having, when Bootsy Collins and those guys were his band, they're doing Jimi Hendrix songs.
00:36:41Like, you had to do cover songs in your repertoire because these are mammoth five-hour shows that they're doing
00:36:47nightly.
00:36:49And not only do you need the hits, you also need to do the ballads so that James can show
00:36:55that, yes, I too can play at the Copa, but you also need to do what's on the radio because
00:37:01that's what the people out there know.
00:37:02Oh, I know that song from the radio.
00:37:03So, oftentimes, those songs will wind up, look, if you really want to uncover something, James Brown is world famous
00:37:14amongst sample heads for, as much as he's an innovator, I can name you eight examples right now of songs
00:37:23that he just straight up licked.
00:37:25And he'll say to himself, like, well, I'm Bennett Funk, so this is my taxing.
00:37:30Like, if you listen to the grunt by the JBs that, you know, Public Enemy sampled on Rebel Without a
00:37:39Pause, the grunt is basically an instrumental version of the Isley Brothers, keep on, keep on what you're doing, you
00:37:47know?
00:37:47Wow.
00:37:49So, this is, the history of covering and whatnot is just, it's nothing new.
00:37:57In the case of Amen Brother, the reason why that break is so important is, you know, in London, England,
00:38:07with the sort of, the pushing the envelope and the boundaries further,
00:38:14drum and bass music, the time that the roots actually moved to London in 1994, this new, what I would
00:38:25call, like, almost public enemy on steroids, drum and bass music, where the drums are almost twice as fast, almost
00:38:33in a 45, like it's being played twice as fast.
00:38:37And the Amen Break was pretty much the meat and potatoes, the basic food group of, you're either grabbing the
00:38:47Amen Break or you're grabbing Lynn Collins, James Brown, Think Break, which we know is that it takes two breaks.
00:38:56But, yeah, the Amen Break has been sampled trillions of times, mostly because that break was important for the development
00:39:05of drum and bass music over in England, which to this day, I so am scratching my head how that
00:39:13was not big in America.
00:39:15Like, the only reason why I paid homage to that movement at the end of our song, You Got Me,
00:39:26when I start playing in double time, is because the roots lived in London for four years, and every night
00:39:33we go to the same clubs, and it'd be the same thing.
00:39:35You go to a club, and they're playing, like, Anita Baker's Sweet Love, and you're laughing at them, like, are
00:39:43they about to dance to a ballad?
00:39:45And then as soon as that hook comes in, suddenly it's just like a herd of elephants running you over.
00:39:54And that's German bass culture, and why it never caught on in America, I don't know, but it could still
00:40:00happen.
00:40:00Yeah. You've brought up before in this conversation that there's a lot of catalogs being bought and sold these days.
00:40:06A lot of older music is changing hands, and as a consequence, there's a lot of people who've just bought
00:40:11catalogs that are looking for ways to revive it and to bring it back into, you know, kind of popular
00:40:16culture once again.
00:40:18And so they're reaching out to folks like you about various ways that you can rework it for them.
00:40:24That's one way to put it.
00:40:26Yeah.
00:40:26There's also people, like, you know, cops on the highway with the radar, like, I dare you.
00:40:34I double-dog dare you to use this.
00:40:37I just paid millions for this catalog.
00:40:40People on high alert, you know.
00:40:41There is a company that's actually like, hey, we have a plentiful catalog.
00:40:46Come use our work.
00:40:48And everyone's like, literally, I'm part of a producer's thread, which is like kind of the dream team.
00:40:57It's the 1992 Olympic dream team of producers from Just Blaze to DJ Premier to, you know, literally it's like
00:41:0730 producers, Ninth Wonder, all these guys.
00:41:09When they came with this thing, you know, it was literally someone that brought all these catalogs.
00:41:16It was like, hey, guys, like, I own all these catalogs now.
00:41:19You can use this stuff.
00:41:22And I laughed because it's almost like second to the legalization of weed.
00:41:29Like, it's almost like there's something appealing of the outlawness of it all.
00:41:36Like, you know, back when it was like, you know, I got this thing that you don't got.
00:41:43Now that it's like all out in the open and legal, people are like, I'm good.
00:41:47I don't want it.
00:41:48I mean, it's like now it's like, okay, private equity guy comes over and says, hey, kids, we have all
00:41:54of these samples.
00:41:54Yeah, hey, fellow teenagers.
00:41:56Like, no, I'm not falling for that, no.
00:41:59For any listeners who might not be familiar kind of with what Questlove is talking about, there's been this rise
00:42:06of, you know, music catalog owners who are trying to boost the value of their catalog.
00:42:10So they'll make like a playlist of songs that they can easily clear.
00:42:13And then they'll approach people like you and ask them, hey, do you want to sample this?
00:42:18Do you want to flip it?
00:42:19Do you want to interpolate it?
00:42:20Because they're desperate to try to boost the value of their catalog.
00:42:24But I don't know.
00:42:25It does feel a little bit weird to be approached by a private equity company.
00:42:28Yeah.
00:42:29Again, it's like the legalization of weed.
00:42:31Like the danger element is out of it.
00:42:33And, you know, once the gatekeeper becomes your collaborator, you start to lose trust.
00:42:40So, you know, I'm certain that there are going to be other innovative uses for sonic satisfaction out there.
00:42:55So we'll see.
00:42:57However, you know, I do believe that people, especially with labels now so desperate to just stay in the game.
00:43:11And I mean, like labels, the established labels, if there is an across-the-board kind of, I'm not saying
00:43:22unionized or whatever, but if there is an across-the-board agreement method that we could have, you know,
00:43:31I do believe that there is a generation of producers out there that are just doing really incredible work right
00:43:41now.
00:43:42I mean, you know, Knotts is one of them.
00:43:44Vitamin D is one of them.
00:43:45Stro Elliot is one of them.
00:43:48You know, B-Man is one of them.
00:43:49These guys who are on their Instagram pages are just making miracles out of song flipping and innovation with sampling,
00:44:02like almost to the point where you don't recognize the song anymore.
00:44:05To me, that excites me more.
00:44:07So there is a new Wild West that's brewing underneath.
00:44:11It's not just taking four bars or two bars.
00:44:15Like, they're now micro-chopping and putting in the blender, and the results are absolutely not detectable at all.
00:44:25Yeah, yeah.
00:44:26Are you seeing that a lot of people are sharing those kind of creations on social media more than they
00:44:31are on actual streaming platforms?
00:44:34Dude, it is saving my DJ sets now.
00:44:40Because, you know, there's so much innovation out there that, you know, mind you, like I come from, again, I
00:44:51feel like I, not to keep tooting the horn of his innovation, but like, you know, Jay Dilla was basically
00:45:01as close to AI that you could get and still be a human.
00:45:07Of course, I mean, there are cats that are, I mean, not with, you know, I don't know cats that
00:45:15are using AI to flip, but, you know, just in terms of what programs are out there that helps you,
00:45:24you know, chop your beats up more thoroughly than 20 years ago where I had to like, okay, well, I
00:45:33take this part and this part and this part and this part and this part.
00:45:35Now, you know, you can look at the graph and sort of see things that you could do, like it
00:45:41just leaves the space for more innovation.
00:45:44So, yeah, and I, there, there are these cats that are crazy innovative.
00:45:53Yeah, this brother named Vitamin D from Seattle is one of those guys.
00:45:58Another cat named B-Man is another guy that just takes it to a whole nother level.
00:46:05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:07Well, it's interesting.
00:46:08The reason why I ask if they're sharing more of their kind of like sample based creations on social media
00:46:12rather than traditional streaming platforms is I feel like I have this friend at Media Research named Tatiana Sirisano.
00:46:20And she was talking about how she feels like there's going to be a bifurcation in music culture where you
00:46:26have kind of your more fast and loose creations on social media.
00:46:30And then you kind of have just your, you know, very fully formed masters that end up on streaming services.
00:46:37And I think a really good example of this was during Drake and Kendrick's beef a couple of years ago.
00:46:43So during Drake and Kendrick's.
00:46:45Oh, make it overnight and blame them.
00:46:46Oh yeah, just put it out, put it out.
00:46:48And maybe you're never planning on putting it out officially, but it's just like kind of, it's almost like mixtape
00:46:53culture a little bit on social media.
00:46:55It's the new radio.
00:46:57Somebody, I think DJ Cumberbund, he did a really good, something innovative between Kenny Rogers, the gambler and TLC's waterfalls
00:47:13that like blew my mind.
00:47:15And I slid in his DMs like, yo, I want to, I want to spend that.
00:47:19I want to DJ that.
00:47:19So, you know, as of now that, that to me is the exciting part of what my job is now,
00:47:29where I'm literally on the way to a DJ gig.
00:47:33I'll just ask a guy like, yo, you, you mind if I spend this, this, this Michael Jackson mix that
00:47:38you're doing right now.
00:47:39And, oh my God, I'm so honored here.
00:47:41Here's, here's my Dropbox.
00:47:43And I'll spin it and Jesus, like the reaction of it.
00:47:48So it's, it's even making like DJ and fun for me now.
00:47:53Going back to that, the Drake Kendrick beef during that beef, there was a moment where it was, it was
00:47:59the first instance I had seen of this Metro Boomin took an AI song called BBL Drizzy.
00:48:04That was created by this comedian AI user called King Malonius.
00:48:09He added some drums to it, made it his own and put that out on, I believe it was SoundCloud.
00:48:15And after that, I wrote a story for Billboard about the potential rise of AI sampling.
00:48:22So given all of the copyright issues that are very apparent with sampling, I could imagine that there are some
00:48:28people who might say, hey, if I could make a Motown-like AI song and then sample that and chop
00:48:34that up, then I'm not going to have any rights issues.
00:48:37I'm just kind of wondering what you think about that kind of thing and if you've seen it start to
00:48:43happen.
00:48:43Yeah, I mean, here's the truth.
00:48:45When it, when it, when it first came out, you know, I think one of the first examples I saw
00:48:52of it was they somehow had a Barry White figure singing an 8-Ball and MJG song or, you know,
00:49:06like a Biggie song or whatever.
00:49:08Um, you know, similar to social media.
00:49:11It was all fun and games like, oh, that's cute.
00:49:13That's funny.
00:49:14Um, however, from a Sonic standpoint, uh, I'm not there yet because, you know, I'm, I'm sensitive to digital distortion.
00:49:27So from a Sonic standpoint, I'm kind of like, all right, well, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting for three
00:49:35seconds that you're scrolling on your social media, but I would never play this in concert, nor would I sample
00:49:41it because I hate Sonic digital distortion.
00:49:46However, we all know that, you know, 10 years from now, when they do version 7.0, whatever, they'll perfect
00:49:55it.
00:49:56Um, but even then similar to similar to sampling culture, which is pretty much what I see this as the
00:50:09parallel of like, again, the whole thing is like to AI or not to AI.
00:50:14Half the people are like, well, it's going to happen anyway.
00:50:16So we might as well jump on the bandwagon.
00:50:18And other people are like, no, why are you taking intellectual property and stealing it and blah, blah, blah, blah,
00:50:24blah.
00:50:24Similar to sampling.
00:50:26I think that there should be, uh, compensation.
00:50:31You know, if you are building an AI device and whatnot, um, you know, you should be transparent to which,
00:50:44what materials that you're using to build your platform, uh, there should definitely be compensation behind it.
00:50:52So that, and not, not in the way I never liked the sampling laws for record labels, which pretty much
00:51:02only paid the publisher and paid the record label, you know, Clyde Stubblefield is getting no parts of anyone sampling
00:51:15funky drummer.
00:51:15Even though Clyde Stubblefield is his drums via James Brown are in over 4,000 song sample, you know, so
00:51:27like what of the musician from which you're taking from, um, basically just a restructuring of how people are compensated.
00:51:39Which, you know, even now, like you have people that are getting mirrored pennies, you know, people that have billions
00:51:47of streams that are only seeing, uh, here's your measly $11,000 for the billion times that we played, you
00:51:55know, your song.
00:51:57So I feel like there needs to be an absolute restructuring of creatives, copyright owners, labels, like that part has
00:52:12to be dealt with first before we even let AI in and, and, and drink our milkshake, you know, cause
00:52:22I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and say I'm anti-technology because I love sampling.
00:52:27I love CGI.
00:52:29Like I love other, you know, inventions and digital inventions that are out there, but I do believe that the,
00:52:38the, the, the way that wages are spread out from creative creator to the engineer, to the producer, to the
00:52:50record label, to the publishing owner, like that has to be, we have to, we gotta be fair.
00:52:57Yeah, absolutely.
00:53:00Yeah.
00:53:00I think it's interesting that you brought that up because I do hear that brought up a lot, um, comparing
00:53:05generative AI to either drum machines.
00:53:08A lot of people make the comparison to, oh, you know, when drum machines came up, people were worried about
00:53:12that, uh, sampling devices as well.
00:53:15But yeah, the meaningful difference, which you pointed out is that generative AI is, is trained on a bunch of
00:53:21music that we know about and there's, I mean, we're, we're getting there in terms of compensation, but I do
00:53:27kind of want to end off this conversation by, uh, asking what is probably going to be a little bit
00:53:32of a hard question.
00:53:32Uh, I feel like you have devoted so much of your career in your life to honoring other musicians and
00:53:40to honoring music history.
00:53:41Mm-hmm .
00:53:42I'm wondering what you think your place is.
00:53:46Have you reflected on your own place in the musical legacy and in music history?
00:53:50My own legacy?
00:53:53Um, it's weird because, uh, the, the very thing that has me here, um, you know, right now I feel
00:54:04like I'm going through what you would call, I guess you could say quest love 3.0-ness.
00:54:11Cool.
00:54:13Cool.
00:54:13And with the quest love 3.0 thing, um, one of the questions I asked, I was like, wow, who
00:54:20starts trending this late in the game, like in their fifties?
00:54:25Mm.
00:54:26Like I was taught that this is a young man's game and we kind of dispose of our, especially in
00:54:32this genre, like, dude, like most rap acts are, you know, after your third album, it's like, all right, cool.
00:54:43We got what we want.
00:54:44Um, so I'll say this much, there's, there's a point during the pandemic, um, and kind of
00:54:55which I had, uh, uh, almost a refresh, if you will, a redo, pull the plug and restart.
00:55:07Um, and one of the lessons I had to learn was just live in the present.
00:55:13And I was always the guy that was panicking.
00:55:16I'm like, okay, we're not selling units like that.
00:55:18We're, we don't have hits like that.
00:55:21So are we still going to be here in night in 2001?
00:55:27Are we still going to be here in 2007?
00:55:29Are we still going to be here in 2014?
00:55:31Are we still going to be here in 2019?
00:55:35And it's such a stressful thing to, to, to create under that level of duress.
00:55:41So yes, even though I am of age now where like a lot of my peers are like in the
00:55:46rock and
00:55:46roll, dude, I'm one of the people that decides I'm one of those 40 people in the room that's
00:55:52deciding who gets in the rock and roll hall of fame.
00:55:54Um, so I, I will say to you that I think my job right now is literally to scratch all
00:56:05the
00:56:05itches I have for creativity, be it making records, writing books, directing, uh, in the
00:56:14food space, teaching in the podcast space.
00:56:18Like I, I have my, I'm an octopus with all my hands and, and all, and all of these things.
00:56:26And I'm just living in the present.
00:56:29And when all is said and done, I think that I, I will have done a few things that people
00:56:37will say like, wow, like, you know, that's cool, which I'm, I'm fine with, but I stopped
00:56:45chasing that dragon.
00:56:48I stopped chasing that dragon to 2019 and starting in 2020.
00:56:54I just learned that this, this moment right now is a moment when I hang up with you, I'm
00:57:00gonna go to HR class.
00:57:04You gotta do it once a year.
00:57:05And then I'm gonna go to rehearsal and I know we're going to try and work on two songs
00:57:11and, you know, put my best foot forward.
00:57:15And then we're going to play it on the air tonight.
00:57:16And so that's, that's how I go with it.
00:57:20I love it.
00:57:21Okay.
00:57:21Well, do you have time for a couple of games?
00:57:22I do.
00:57:23Okay.
00:57:23Awesome.
00:57:24Okay.
00:57:25Questlove, we're going to play a couple of games to end this off.
00:57:27This first one is called spin the record.
00:57:28I made this for myself.
00:57:30It is made of a vinyl record.
00:57:31It's got a bunch of fun questions on it.
00:57:33And because you're not here with me, I'm going to spin it for you and we'll see where
00:57:37it lands on.
00:57:37Spin it hard.
00:57:38Okay.
00:57:39I didn't spend it that hard to be honest.
00:57:41Okay.
00:57:42Questlove, what is the documentary you want to make next?
00:57:44Money's no object.
00:57:46Uh, I'm required by NDA not to mention the next three documentaries that I'm doing.
00:57:55Oh, come on.
00:57:57No, however, I will mention a fantasy one that I'm not doing that I would like to do.
00:58:05Great.
00:58:07Although he's very difficult to nail down.
00:58:11Um, I really would like a, I really would like a, uh, an honest to goodness, like real
00:58:21moment to really give us the Stevie wonder story that we all deserve.
00:58:30Hmm.
00:58:32Hmm.
00:58:32And half the battle is just similar to what I said to you, you know, like I'm living in
00:58:38the present and I don't, you know, it, it's my job to figure out how to Jedi mind trick
00:58:44our masters.
00:58:46And to knowing how much that their history is going to change and better the world, you
00:58:56know, great example, earth, earth, when in fire, we're, we're, we're kicking and screaming
00:59:03a little bit because in order, in order to tell that story, you got to be vulnerable.
00:59:08You know what I mean?
00:59:10Yeah.
00:59:10There's a lot of vulnerability in that documentary.
00:59:12Yeah.
00:59:12And it's not like, I'm not asking like interview questions.
00:59:16I'm, I'm talking about how you feel, you know, not like how did things get made, but more
00:59:22like, how do you feel as a human being when you're not taken seriously or you're not listened
00:59:27to your songs get rejected, you know?
00:59:30No.
00:59:30And so oftentimes geniuses don't like, they got to be in control of the narrative for
00:59:37sure.
00:59:37So I just want people to know, like, just based on my track record with summer of soul,
00:59:43sly Saturday night live and with earth, wind and fire, like I'm pretty good behind the
00:59:49wheel.
00:59:50And when all said and done, I think I'm the person that you want your history in his hands.
01:00:00Yeah.
01:00:01I'm just saying.
01:00:02Okay.
01:00:03Stevie balls in your court, man.
01:00:05All right.
01:00:05I'll spin it again.
01:00:07Okay.
01:00:07What is a favorite music documentary of yours that you did not make?
01:00:11The envy I felt watching the sparks documentary.
01:00:18I only knew of the band sparks on a surface level.
01:00:26And once I saw that documentary, especially what Edward did in directing that Jesus Christ,
01:00:33like it just left me, I was jaw dropped the entire time.
01:00:42Of course, there's another powerful documentary of a powerful figure in music that will never
01:00:52be seen by any human being that has changed my life profoundly.
01:01:00Uh, I cannot even mention him, but if you do your homework, you'll know.
01:01:06I'm so intrigued.
01:01:07You'll know who I'm talking about.
01:01:09Um, okay.
01:01:10There's a documentary that got scrapped.
01:01:12Yeah.
01:01:13Okay.
01:01:14I have a fame.
01:01:14It was a musician.
01:01:15There's a nine hour documentary.
01:01:17Yeah.
01:01:18That, that won't see the light of day that I think it, I have a guess, but.
01:01:23He's a God.
01:01:24So.
01:01:24Yeah.
01:01:25That's all I can say.
01:01:26You don't have to say anything.
01:01:28I think it's Prince, but I will keep going.
01:01:30Might be.
01:01:31Might be.
01:01:31Okay.
01:01:32Um, I'll spend it one more time and then we'll head on.
01:01:35Okay.
01:01:36One more spin.
01:01:37Have you ever had a sample clearance nightmare?
01:01:40And what was the story?
01:01:42All right.
01:01:42There, there's, there's, there's a, a cool story and a weird story.
01:01:47Technically the cool story is shows the power and the ripple effect of, uh, how social media
01:01:58can help you.
01:02:00However, this has to do with the one song that I didn't work on.
01:02:05It's, it's one of the songs that, um, I didn't work on for, uh, Erykah Badu's album.
01:02:14However, she had hit me up one night and said, yo, we got to turn this record in tomorrow
01:02:22at, at one in the afternoon.
01:02:26And I was like, yeah, now mind you, it's like 10 PM.
01:02:32And she's like, do you know, Paul McCartney?
01:02:36I said, what?
01:02:40I was like, oh man, you're going to have to, you, you, you, you, you, you might have
01:02:44to bite the bullet on this one.
01:02:46And then when she told me the song, I was like, oh man, I really love that song.
01:02:50That song can not, not, you know, get cleared.
01:02:53I said, yo, you might have to go to Twitter on this one.
01:02:58And literally she tweeted, Hey, I have to turn in my record and clear sample.
01:03:05And I got less than 24 hours.
01:03:07Does anyone know how I can get to Paul McCartney?
01:03:11And I retweeted it.
01:03:14Lenny Kravitz follows me and says, Hey, I know Stella Stella.
01:03:20Then was like, I'll call my dad.
01:03:23And what do you know that in six hours?
01:03:27So wait, what was the song?
01:03:29Do you remember?
01:03:30Uh, uh, gone, baby, gone, uh, uh, gone, baby.
01:03:36Yeah.
01:03:37I think it's called gone, baby, gone.
01:03:38It's on a new America part two.
01:03:41Wow.
01:03:41And it samples, uh, Paul McCartney and, uh, wing song.
01:03:45But the funniest version of that story is, you know, on the tonight show, um, we have made
01:03:52an art form of the walk on song.
01:03:55Mm hmm.
01:03:56When a guest comes on, we will craft their entrance based on either what the movie they're promoting
01:04:04or pop culture about that guest.
01:04:07So, you know, about two or three years into it, the first question always asked is, wow,
01:04:13what are the roots going to play my walk on song?
01:04:15Like, you know, that's that sort of thing.
01:04:17Yeah.
01:04:17And, um, I forgot who the guest was.
01:04:22It was, oh, it was, I think it was the first time that Mariska Hardigay was on the show.
01:04:27Yeah.
01:04:28And I said, guys, why don't we just do the sting from long and order?
01:04:34They're like, yeah.
01:04:35So we did.
01:04:37Dung.
01:04:40Didn't think nothing of it.
01:04:41It's just one note, right?
01:04:42Yeah.
01:04:43Oh boy.
01:04:45Oh, oh.
01:04:47Yeah.
01:04:48You have to clear that, I guess.
01:04:50What technically makes that a song is the reverb of that note.
01:04:55Dung.
01:04:57It lasts for six seconds.
01:04:59So thus it counts as a song.
01:05:02Whoa.
01:05:03Yeah.
01:05:04The things you learn.
01:05:06So immediately the lawyers were like, um, copyright infringement.
01:05:11And we were like, wait, we didn't know.
01:05:14Like, it was just one note.
01:05:15Like, how are we to know?
01:05:18And like, I, I basically said, look, guys, before you hit this with this $300,000 thing,
01:05:26like, this was an honest mistake.
01:05:29I please don't do this to us.
01:05:30And they, they saw the, okay, we'll let it go, but just know that this is a copy written
01:05:36song.
01:05:37So for all of you trying to flip law and order out there, don't do it.
01:05:43Do not do it.
01:05:44I did not know that that was a copyright.
01:05:47Wow.
01:05:48Wow.
01:05:48Those are some good stories.
01:05:50Okay.
01:05:50So we will move on to the final game of the show.
01:05:54It's called, what would you queue?
01:05:55So I'm going to name out some scenarios.
01:05:56I just need you to pick one song that comes to your mind.
01:05:58So what would you queue to take you back to your childhood?
01:06:02Can we pretend by Bill Withers on his 1974, um, album called adjustments.
01:06:10Hmm.
01:06:12Good pick.
01:06:12That's a, that's a fuzzy memory.
01:06:15I have with my, my dad.
01:06:17I love that.
01:06:18What would you queue to represent your favorite era of music?
01:06:22Nothing will ever, um, replace the jaw dropping, freezing adrenaline moment, uh, of when I first
01:06:32heard rebel without a pause by public enemy.
01:06:36It, if you, if you heard stories of people believing that Orson Welles is war of the worlds
01:06:42when it first aired on the radio, like they thought aliens were coming to get them for
01:06:46real.
01:06:47Didn't know it was the radio program.
01:06:50We were staring at the, at the, at the speaker.
01:06:53Like what the hell is this?
01:06:56Like, we'd never heard music like that before in our lives.
01:06:59So yeah, nothing, nothing will ever replace the first time I asked, are we allowed to do
01:07:07this in music?
01:07:07Like, yeah, that's a great pick.
01:07:11Okay.
01:07:11And finally, last question.
01:07:13What would you queue to remember the best concert you've ever been to?
01:07:18Okay.
01:07:18I'm, I'm cheating here and this is a humble brag.
01:07:21Okay.
01:07:22Um, and this is pre Uber.
01:07:24Okay.
01:07:25So this pre Uber, um, the roots are doing a, uh, a show in, um, in Jersey.
01:07:37And I get a call from Prince's people.
01:07:41It was like, he's like, Hey, uh, we're going to take over butter.
01:07:45Butter was like his favorite restaurant.
01:07:47It's like, we're going to take over butter.
01:07:49And, um, you know, come on up, come through.
01:07:52And I said, Oh, I'm, I'm, uh, I just got done a show.
01:07:56I'm about to go to bed.
01:07:57So, yeah.
01:07:59And he was like, yeah, come through.
01:08:04And I was like, yeah, but you know, it's also snowing outside.
01:08:08And, um, yeah, I'm about to go to bed.
01:08:12And he was like, no, you, you should really come through.
01:08:17And I was like, well, I'm like an hour and 15 minutes away from New York city.
01:08:23Like I'm in Jersey, but I'm in like the Philly side of Jersey.
01:08:26So I don't have a car with me inside.
01:08:31So yeah, it just gives you enough time.
01:08:33Like we're going to start at one 30 in the morning.
01:08:35And I was like, well, what am I like going to take a taxi up?
01:08:41Are you give me a car service or taxi or something?
01:08:45It's like, you can get up here.
01:08:47You're rich.
01:08:49I said, wait, you want me to take a taxi in a snowstorm from like the outskirts of
01:08:53Philadelphia to Manhattan cut to me calling the taxi cab in the outskirts of
01:09:00Philadelphia, driving to Manhattan, $300 later in the snow and princess commandeered a restaurant.
01:09:13And weird enough, it was only like maybe 50 people in there.
01:09:18And what does he do?
01:09:20He called around four in the morning.
01:09:22This is like two hours later.
01:09:24He calls me to the drums.
01:09:28And he's, and the only way I can describe it to you is if you're familiar with the mean
01:09:35Joe green Coca-Cola commercial, where it's like a, a football player.
01:09:41Sees this like little kid in the, in the, in the, like the wind tunnel.
01:09:46And the kid offers him his Coca-Cola.
01:09:49Thanks kid.
01:09:50And he gives them his towel.
01:09:52Thanks mean Joe.
01:09:53Like Prince at one point turns around and he plays my favorite bootleg of his, of all.
01:10:02Like he knows how much this moment means to me.
01:10:05And he starts playing the one song I've been dying for him to ever play in like maybe the, the,
01:10:12the, the short eight years that I've been like on and on like hanging and playing with him.
01:10:19It's a song called chlorine bacon skin.
01:10:22And it's really just a funk workout between bass and drums.
01:10:26And he kind of did it with a wink.
01:10:28Like that was his sort of thank you.
01:10:31Like I'm going to, I'm going to play my, I'm going to play your favorite song of mine for four
01:10:36minutes.
01:10:37And that'll be worth the $600 you spent to get up.
01:10:43Wow.
01:10:45That's, that's a moment to remember forever.
01:10:47That is fabulous.
01:10:48Well, Questlove, thank you so much for coming to on the record.
01:10:51It was great to have you.
01:10:52Thank you for having me.
01:10:54All right.
01:10:54Thank you so much to Questlove for joining me to talk about sampling his work as a music historian, and
01:10:59of course, earth, wind and fire.
01:11:01And thank you for listening to this week's episode of on the record.
01:11:04If you'd like today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or on our TikTok page at Billboard on the
01:11:09record, where you can find new clips of the show every single week.
01:11:12We'd also appreciate it if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform.
01:11:15All these things help on the record grow bigger and better than ever.
01:11:19I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week for another peek behind the curtain of the music business.
01:11:24I'll see you then.
01:11:34Bye.
01:11:34Bye.
01:11:36Bye.