00:00I want to cut across to our guests right now as Delhi now braces for Cockroach Janata Party
00:06Protest 2.0, fortified, armed to the teeth. Cutting across right now to Sanju Verma,
00:13National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party, Sanjay Sahai, ex-IPS Founder Director,
00:18TechnoPro, Tushar Sharma, Spokesperson, CJP. I would like to begin with Sanju Verma. Sanju
00:26Verma, I just want to take you through the list of measures that have been taken right now where
00:32internet, of course, has been suspended starting 10 p.m. tonight. The Delhi police has not given
00:37permission. It's tantamounted to 57 metro stations being shut, 20,000 police personnel have been
00:44deployed, which includes deployment of BSF alongside police personnel on even the Noida-Delhi border.
00:51Even so, mail express trains, Sanju Verma, reaching between 4 a.m. and 2 p.m. tomorrow
00:57have all been cancelled. All of this, Sanju Verma, in the wake of the top court saying,
01:02do not shut down, you need to regulate. How do you explain this?
01:07Okay, Priti, let me come straight to the chairs. First and foremost, the Supreme Court has made some
01:13observations saying that inconvenience to the public should be minimized. Supreme Court has made
01:20observations. Supreme Court has not given out an order. There is a difference between an order and an
01:26observation. Did the Supreme Court say that 57 stations cannot be shut down? Did the Supreme Court say
01:33that BSF cannot be deployed? Did the Supreme Court say that internet cannot be shut down? Did the Supreme Court
01:41say that Metro network cannot be shut down temporarily? The Supreme Court said the Delhi police has the
01:49right to maintain law and order. And I think that was the most important observation of the Supreme Court,
01:57because while the Delhi Police Act of 1978, which was amended in 2012 under Section 47, the Delhi police
02:05has absolute right to temporarily reclaim a public place if it feels that there is going to be lawlessness
02:14and compromise of public order. Point number two is this, that Abhiji Dipke, Saurav Das, Ashutosh Ranka
02:22keeps saying Article 19, Article 19, Paralikkar Aya Karo Kokrochaj, the same Article 19 which gives
02:29the right to protest the same Article 19 also says that the right to protest is subject to reasonable
02:39restrictions pertaining to public order, morality and health. And last time we saw on the 20th of July,
02:46all these cockroaches were laughing and jumping up and down gleefully. When slogans were being raised,
02:52Sansad Bhavan ko aag lagado, Samvidhan ko aag lagado, Modit ki tervi par samosay baantenge, Amit Shah ko aag lagado,
03:01Umar Khalid zindabad, Sharjil Imam zindabad, so cockroaches first win a municipal election.
03:07Election jeetne ki hithmet rahi hai hai, sirf blabbering.
03:10All right. Okay, Sanjay Verma, I believe your time is up. I will give you, I will give you extra
03:14time
03:14because we've already had the Cockroach Janta Party give out their statement. I will give you extra time.
03:20But before that, I want to go to Sanjay Sahai, ex-IPS Founder Director, TechnoPro.
03:26Mr. Sahai, the kind of deployment in the wake of what happened on 22nd of July,
03:34because there's seemingly, the expectation of crowds was much lesser than the kind of forces
03:39that turned out. And over time, we saw even the use of pellet guns because things did get out of
03:45hand. Do you think it justifies, you know, the kind of action that the Delhi police and the government
03:51has taken? Well, even express trains coming in from other states into Delhi have been cancelled from
03:584 a.m. to 2 p.m.
04:00Leave aside what the Supreme Court has said or it has not said. The principle of proportionality
04:05is there and the principle of proportionality will be decided by the Supreme Court. But as
04:10it sounds or as it seems on the face value, just because the government burned its fingers
04:15on the 28th of July, for a variety of reasons or a culmination of variety of reasons from ignoring
04:21them for the first 30-35 days to picking up so on a one joke and what all transpired and
04:27they're forced to somehow stop the Cockroach Janata Party protest, which primarily was not
04:32a protest. It had gone to the extent that they had literally laid seas over that particular
04:37year, 3-4 kilometers of Janata Muntahar. And had that not been taken further in the manner
04:43it was, I think it would have led to a very unsiveless situation. So, to best of my understanding
04:48of the knowledge of Indian policing, which I have since 1989, I don't think I've seen a situation
04:53of this nature and the proportionality thing can be decided with the Supreme Court. But
04:58Prime FSI, whatever we see is, I think it is going beyond the normal law and order mechanism,
05:05which I think you'll also see, you'd have also seen in your career. So, this nature of
05:10clampdown in Delhi, I have not seen. I was in Delhi in 1984 when Mrs. Gandhi was assassinated
05:16and that was a different situation where army moved in on the 2nd of November 1984. So,
05:2231st morning she was assassinated, she was declared dead on the evening of 31st October
05:29and army moved in only on the 2nd of November evening. And all throughout the morning of
05:361st of November, there was literally mayhem all around the place and the police acted in
05:40the manner as they did. So, currently given the situation, there is no denying the fact
05:44that 28th July, whatever happened, did happen. There is absolutely no denying the fact. Who
05:48was responsible, who was not responsible. One thing which literally worries me as an ex-police
05:54officer and somebody who has been associated with this country and Delhi for a long, long time
05:59is that I don't think there is any…
06:02Okay.
06:02I don't know…
06:08Right. Okay, sir. I'm going to come back to you. I just want to bring in Tushar Sharma
06:12into this conversation from the Kokoro Janata Party. Tushar Sharma, what is the plan of action?
06:16Because it does seem that the minute Kokoro Janata Party leaders reach the national capital,
06:21they will be detained. And it could happen very well from the airport itself.
06:26First of all, thank you so much for inviting me to your panel. Secondly, all of these people,
06:30you know, from the opposition, say we are national spokespersons from BJP as well. They
06:33are saying that we are trying to disrupt Delhi. Look at what is actually happening today. I mean,
06:38the government itself has declared an official Delhi Bandh. And this is nothing but sort of an
06:42undeclared emergency. Like, they have cancelled every, you can say, mail or express, you know,
06:48into New Delhi or Nizamuddin railway station. And they are checking in hotels, they are raiding,
06:53you know, raiding, raiding hotels. They are going to the colleges to ask children and threaten them
06:58in a very threatening tone that do not join the protest. They are like shutting down 57
07:02metro stations, snapping off internet. They can do whatever they want. They can shut all of these
07:06down, all of these things down, but they cannot shut the Indian people, right? Additionally,
07:11one point, Mr. National Spokesperson of BJP said that there was a slogan raised,
07:17Madam, if you can show me one video of that, please do that. I'd be more than happy to see
07:22that.
07:23So, if they're, and I agree that Delhi police will be doing it. And trust me on this,
07:28it seems that BJP is no longer running in democratic government. They are exactly operating
07:34like in militia because the government is maybe too petrified to, you know, see a peaceful
07:38citizens protest. Okay. You know, I'm going to just interrupt you and I'm going to cut across to
07:42the latest news break that is coming in because I think the Home Ministry this time is coming down
07:47on the CJP protest even before it has started. That's the latest news that's coming in. The
07:53Home Secretary has now directed all states to ban CJP's Janatar Mantar protest. Union Home Secretary
08:00has written to the police chiefs of all states and union territories regarding the CJP proposed
08:05protest at Janatar Mantar on October 10th. The letter urges them to maintain law and order and make necessary
08:11security arrangements in coordination with the Delhi police. According to the Home Secretary,
08:16letter dated 9th, the Delhi police has refused permission. The letter states that the protest
08:21has been banned and has directed police chiefs of all states that, and urging them to maintain law
08:30and order and saying that all protest is banned. What does this really mean? That would possibly mean,
08:36viewers that if people are coming in from other states for the protest, action be taken and they be
08:43either detained or not allowed to come. I think that could be the only definition of the latest news
08:50break. We're going to try and get in a reporter on it. I want to bring in Sanju Verma back
08:54into this
08:54conversation. Sanju Verma, the kind of measures that are being taken. Yes, you're right. You know,
09:00till now the court hasn't said don't do this. Do not cancel trains which are coming in from outside.
09:06Uh, you know, do not deploy the BSF. The court has observed very strongly says you can't shut down.
09:11You can regulate, but can't shut down protest. You might call it an observation. It's happened.
09:15But ma'am to come down in this manner. Do you not think that this is a rather strong response?
09:22You know, Preeti, the very constitution, jiske surma bene firte hain, dipke das and ranka,
09:31entry one, entry two, list one, seventh schedule of the constitution, article 246. You can check this.
09:39It's verifiable. Says that the final decision and authority to maintain law and order as the union
09:47government deems fit rests with the government of the day, which means the Narendra Modi government.
09:54Point number one. So by having a heavy police deployment, has the Modi government broken law
10:00and order? No. We are upholding law and order based on article 246. Point number two. And very quickly,
10:09Abiji Dipke says, you are the president of Gyanesh Kumar, who is the president of Gyanesh Kumar?
10:14So Abiji Dipke, who is you? You are the following of your Instagram. You will also stand up in the
10:22election of society.
10:25You will get up in the election. So stay in the election, Abiji Dipke. Don't say more than the election.
10:36All right. Well, Sanjay Verma, you've, okay, you had more time, but I'm going to come right back,
10:41I believe. I just want to go to our other, you know, guest, Mr. Sahai, who continues to be with
10:46me.
10:46Mr. Sahai, one can understand, you know, that one needs to fortify Delhi, but to the limit and you,
10:52you know, you, you were making a point earlier because the latest now is all trains coming in have
10:57been stopped. BSF have been deployed. And now a letter has gone to other states to say that the
11:03protest is banned. So, which I would reckon, and if you can simplify it for me, will mean if anyone
11:08from other states is planning to come in and travel to Delhi, they need to be either detained or stopped
11:14in those states itself. I don't know whether they should be detained or stopped and what powers
11:20the government of India has to instruct, given the fact that all over and over again,
11:24we keep telling that law and order is a state subject. So, that being the case, the nature of
11:29instruction to coordinate and things of that nature, how it is being translated on the ground,
11:35it is left for the local agencies and the DGPs of the state to decide, suffice to say,
11:41without getting into any other rhetoric. So, it would be completely implemented by the BJP state, but
11:47the states which are under the rule of other parties. So, it will lead differently.
11:53Now, again, become the fortified part of it is the principle of proportionality.
11:58All right, sir. So, I leave it for all the people.
12:00Sir, I reckon we don't have much time right now. I apologize to you. That's all the time that we
12:03have.
12:06I'll just add one line. Sir, I'm sorry. That's all the time.
12:08I believe we need to cut into an interview. Make your point, sir. Very quickly, make your point.
12:12What I'm saying is that BNS 163 surreptitiously is being expanded to the whole country.
