- 32 minutes ago
A political panel debates the proposed implementation of the Uniform Civil Code across India. Bharatiya Janata Party spokesperson and lawyer Charu Pragya defends the policy, asserting that Article 44 mandates equal civil rights and stating, 'This is not about religion... this is about equality and basically equality for women.' She highlights the successful implementation of the Uniform Civil Code in Uttarakhand and argues that personal practices must remain distinct from civil legislation regarding marriage, divorce, and inheritance. In opposition, All India Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen spokesperson Waris Pathan contends that the Uniform Civil Code violates fundamental constitutional rights under Articles 14, 25, 26, and 29, arguing it targets minority personal laws and disregards recommendations against its immediate introduction. Political commentator Rajat Sethi emphasizes that constitutional values must supersede religious codes to protect individual rights, while author Saira Shah Halim urges the government to release a proposed draft for comprehensive stakeholder consultation to ensure gender parity across all religious communities.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Let me now throw it open for a wider political debate.
00:03Charu Pragya, again a lawyer and the spokesperson of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party joins me on the show.
00:09Varis Pathan, again a well-respected High Court advocate and spokesperson of AIMIM,
00:15former political leader himself joins me on the show.
00:18Former MLA Sairasha Haleem, author and commentator joins us in a moment.
00:22Rajat Sethi, political commentator, again somebody who studied the subject very closely, joins me on the show.
00:27Welcome.
00:27Charu Pragya, the opposition is raising the question about the timing of the UCC pitch.
00:33Asad Dhiruwesi says it's targeting 18 crore Muslims in India and Congress says it's just being done before elections.
00:42Gaurav, good evening and thank you for making me participate in this particular debate because it is very close to
00:48my heart.
00:49I'm going to go step by step over three points I want to make and I'll begin by answering your
00:54question.
00:55The timing.
00:55Every government is given five years to implement whatever it feels is best for the country within those five years.
01:03We have a constitutional mandate of five years.
01:05Why should we not aim to fulfill all our promises before the next election rolls around?
01:11We should be getting a pat on our back for ensuring that we are going to bring uniformed civil court
01:17before the next elections.
01:18I think it is a positive step.
01:20The second thing, when Mr. OAC again and again says that this is targeting Muslims, I would like to quote
01:26verbatim Article 44.
01:28Article 44 of our constitution says the state shall endeavor to secure for the citizens a uniformed civil court throughout
01:37the territory of India.
01:39For the citizens. It doesn't say for Muslims, for Hindus, for Christians, for minorities, for majority.
01:45It is for the citizens. And this direction is given in our constitution itself.
01:49This is the direction in which legislation needs to go.
01:52You know, it is ironic and it is sometimes even funny.
01:54People who wave the constitution around in parliament, they hold that book in their hand 24-7.
02:00They develop political amnesia, it seems, when they reach Article 44.
02:04And I don't understand the reason for that.
02:06Because if I go back to a time since even before I was born, Gaurav,
02:10I can quote you instances where the Supreme Court has tried to nudge the government towards the uniformed civil court.
02:17It goes back to the times of Shah Bano in 85.
02:20And the most recent case, just now six months ago, when you give me more time, I'd like to go
02:24over all six to seven instances, please.
02:26And I will come back to you for that. But let me bring in Varis Pathan.
02:30You know, sir, you're a legal eagle yourself.
02:33Constitution gives you the freedom to pray in the manner in which you want.
02:37But when it comes to rights of women, for example, when it comes to either inheritance or marriage or divorce,
02:43why is common law a red flag for some in our country?
02:48Well, Gaurav, the BJP is bringing the UCC law
02:53merely with an intention to impose the Hindu law on the Muslim people.
02:58They want to target the Muslim.
03:00They don't want to bring the law for uniformity or equality.
03:02Kindly look into that aspect as well.
03:04Why we are against this is totally the violation of Article 25,
03:08which guarantees freedom of religion,
03:10which is violation of Article 14, which guarantees the right to equality.
03:13It's also the violation of Article 26 and 29 of the Indian Constitution.
03:17So, the first thing we need to understand, the BJP is not doing this for equality.
03:21Their only intention is to target the Muslim.
03:23Now, Modi government has given this matter before the law commission.
03:27The law commission was appointed whether the UCC should be implemented or no.
03:31And read the report.
03:32What did they say?
03:34They clearly mentioned that it is not desirable
03:37to introduce this uniform civil court in the country at this stage,
03:40that they don't listen to the law commission which was put by them.
03:43Third thing which I want to bring to your notice is,
03:46in Gujarat there is a law, Disturb Area Act.
03:49What will they do?
03:50The Hindus cannot sell their property to the Muslims.
03:53Will they change their rule there?
03:54No.
03:55In Goa, there is a rule where the woman,
03:57if she's about 25 and she gives birth to a baby girl
04:01and she cannot give birth to a boy,
04:02then the man is entitled to marry as per his own wish.
04:05What will they do with that law?
04:06And in a country, the main soul of our country,
04:09Gaurav, is pluralism.
04:11Pluralism is the main soul of our country.
04:13You cannot destroy that there are various states
04:14in which multi-cultural people live,
04:17multi-language people speak,
04:18they have their own religious people to gather to.
04:20Now, how will they do that?
04:21In most of the...
04:22No, but if a Muslim woman were to get the same rights
04:25as a Hindu woman, as a Christian woman,
04:27how is that a violation of religious rights,
04:29is the question that...
04:30Most of the states, Gaurav,
04:32Kaav is worship.
04:33They call it mammi.
04:34Some of the states, it is jammi.
04:35Like, for example, in Goa.
04:38In Goa, the minister of Goa said that
04:40if we are short of meat,
04:41we will import from it.
04:43Kiran Rijujar, their own minister,
04:44said, I eat that.
04:46What law will be implemented in Goa
04:47and what law will be implemented in...
04:49Okay, since you've raised a political point,
04:50I want to go to Rajat Sethi.
04:53But Charu Pragya wants to respond to your barb
04:56where you say that for Hindus,
04:59Kaav is mammi,
05:00but for some, they find Kaav yummy.
05:03You know, Gaurav,
05:04this is just showing political immaturity
05:07and they're only trying to do
05:08what they did during the time of Shah Banu.
05:10The fact is that here,
05:12we are talking about regulating rights
05:15and especially the rights of women.
05:17Please tell me,
05:18why should your civil rights
05:20be different from your criminal rights?
05:23It needs to be the same in one country
05:24with one constitution, right?
05:26We are not dictating how you pray.
05:28We are not dictating your practices.
05:29We are not dictating what you wear
05:30and what you eat.
05:31We are merely saying that
05:33when it comes to rights
05:34of a citizen of this country,
05:36there needs to be uniformity.
05:38Rights cannot change
05:39just because one child is born
05:41in one family practicing one religion
05:43and the other one can also get married
05:45at the age of 12
05:46and even the courts stand by helplessly.
05:48Well, well, well, well.
05:50Okay, Rajat Sethi,
05:51Rajat Sethi,
05:52is there merit in the criticism
05:53that this is an exercise
05:55to target Muslims
05:56and polarize the electorate
05:58or fulfillment of a long-standing pledge
06:01or a dream of the Bharatiya Janata Party,
06:04Ram Mandir, Article 370 and UCC?
06:10I think BJP has been pretty clear
06:12about their ideological position on this issue
06:15and I don't think they have deviated on it.
06:18Several state governments
06:19have already gone ahead and implemented it.
06:21And at some point,
06:24I'm sure that the opposition
06:25will again take this matter
06:26to the Supreme Court
06:27if it is brought through a national law.
06:30And it's pretty clear
06:31because the position of the Supreme Court
06:34repeatedly pushing the buck back to the parliament
06:38to actually legislate on this matter,
06:40I'm pretty sure that this will test,
06:42hold the test of the Supreme Court eventually.
06:45See, at the end of the day,
06:46it is about certain individual rights.
06:49Nobody is questioning community rights.
06:52Community rights
06:53and the rights of the Muslim community,
06:55a religious community,
06:56is what is so safeguarded
06:57by certain other sections
06:58and articles of our constitution
07:00which remain absolutely intact.
07:01We are talking about
07:03certain aspects of the individual right
07:05which does not, you know,
07:07go up on and mix up
07:08with the religious collective community rights.
07:11And I think this is where
07:12Supreme Court has been pretty clear
07:14in all its judgment
07:15and this is where,
07:17you know, even Bhava Saab Ambedkar
07:19clearly said that the country
07:21has to come out of the shadows of partition,
07:24this deep polarized state
07:25and then reach to a mature democracy stage
07:28where there can be
07:29a common set of courts
07:30for all individuals
07:31in a constitutional setup.
07:33We are not under Sharia
07:34or we are not under a Hindu,
07:36you know,
07:37religious dictat that way.
07:39No, there is no Sharia.
07:39We are under the civil constitutional values.
07:41Yes, no question of Sharia.
07:43Saira Shahaleen,
07:45you know,
07:47experts say
07:48why should Muslims think
07:49that Uniform Civil Court
07:51is anti-Muslim?
07:53They are saying that
07:53pray in the manner
07:55in which Muslims may want to.
07:56That's their right.
07:57However,
07:58when it comes to
07:59rights of a woman
08:01in a marriage
08:01or divorce
08:02or inheritance,
08:04you know,
08:05how is there conflict
08:06with religion
08:07if every woman
08:08has the same rights?
08:10So, is it, you know,
08:11women's rights first
08:12or religion first?
08:14See, good evening, Gaurav.
08:16Firstly, let me make it very clear.
08:17It's not a Muslim issue.
08:19And if the government
08:20is serious about
08:21implementing UCC,
08:22let it publish
08:23what the intention is.
08:25Let it first publish
08:27the proposed law
08:28and let it subject
08:28it to extensive consultation
08:31with various stakeholders
08:32of different communities.
08:34And, you know,
08:35and right now,
08:36the majority community
08:37is also a major stakeholder.
08:39Are they okay
08:40with their personal laws
08:41being tweaked?
08:42Firstly, the big question
08:43is that the Muslim community
08:44comes much later.
08:45Because then we have
08:46the tribal communities.
08:49We have, of course,
08:50They've been kept out, ma'am,
08:51as you well know.
08:52They've been kept out.
08:54Yeah, but what I'm saying is
08:56will the proposed UCC
08:58give women equal
08:59inheritance rights?
09:00That's a big question.
09:01And does it eliminate
09:02discrimination
09:03across all communities?
09:04Then everyone will,
09:06of course, support it.
09:07But the point is...
09:08So, you're saying
09:09Muslim women will also
09:10support it
09:11if they get equal rights
09:12like in the case
09:13of triple talaq.
09:14You know,
09:14triple talaq was
09:15highly discriminatory
09:17and, you know,
09:18the removal of triple,
09:20instant triple talaq
09:21was actually welcomed
09:22by Muslim women also.
09:23Is that what you're saying
09:24to Varis Pathan also?
09:25The point is
09:26that the UCC
09:27should not be framed,
09:29looked at
09:30through a religious lens
09:31because the real legal story
09:33gets missed
09:34if you're going to look at it
09:35as a completely,
09:37you know,
09:38religious point of view
09:39because here,
09:41a uniform civil code,
09:42whenever it is implemented,
09:44it impacts all communities.
09:46And here,
09:46I'm talking about
09:47the Hindu tax benefit system.
09:50Absolutely.
09:50It should be equal
09:52for all Indian citizens.
09:54across the North East
09:55and the Central West
09:57which codify
09:58women's rights
09:59across personal laws
10:01and that is applicable
10:03to all communities
10:04because the debate
10:05is not about
10:07one nation,
10:08one law.
10:08It is about
10:09how one law
10:10respects India's
10:12vast legal diversity.
10:14I think that is
10:15the bigger point
10:16that I'm missing.
10:17So, Varis Pathan,
10:18respond to the point
10:20that one,
10:21it has to be equal
10:22for all,
10:23irrespective of religion.
10:25Of course,
10:25tribes apart.
10:27But,
10:28respond to that point
10:29that is being made
10:29that BJP had a poll manifesto.
10:32The Divya Bhavya Navya
10:33Ram Mandir at Ayodhya
10:34done.
10:35Article 370 done.
10:37UCC next.
10:38They promised it
10:40in their poll manifesto.
10:41They want to implement it.
10:43Why should it be seen
10:44as anti-Muslim
10:45and not be seen
10:46as pro-women,
10:47irrespective of religion?
10:49Gaurav,
10:49they talk about
10:50the equality.
10:50Let me ask them
10:51earlier there.
10:51They imposed the UCC
10:53on Uttarakhand
10:53and all.
10:54Why did they exclude
10:55the tribals?
10:56Once you exclude
10:57the tribal,
10:57how does it become
10:58equality?
10:59And you talk
11:00about uniformity.
11:01Not only that,
11:02somebody spoke
11:03about the Muslim
11:03marriages.
11:04And I would like
11:05to clarify one thing.
11:06In Muslim,
11:06marriage is a contract.
11:08In Hindu,
11:09it is Janam Janam
11:09ka saath.
11:10In Christian,
11:11it is I do.
11:12Now,
11:12how will you bring
11:13everything on one platform?
11:14What kind of
11:15religious practice
11:16Through a uniform
11:16civil court, sir?
11:18Yes, sir.
11:19Can I come in,
11:20please?
11:20Okay,
11:21Charu Pragya
11:21wants to come in.
11:22It will remain
11:22same,
11:23but what about
11:23the Muslims?
11:24See,
11:25this is nothing
11:25but to impose
11:26the Hindu law
11:27on the Muslims.
11:28I really don't
11:29understand.
11:29That is what
11:29is clearly
11:30mentioned, sir.
11:31Now,
11:31what will we do
11:32about the law
11:32in Goa?
11:33Will they change
11:33the law in Goa?
11:34You cannot eat
11:35cow.
11:35No,
11:35absolutely not.
11:36One second.
11:37I just explained
11:38it is not about
11:39what you eat,
11:39what you wear
11:40or how you pray.
11:42I just explained
11:43that it is not
11:43about what you eat,
11:44how you pray,
11:45what you wear,
11:45what language you say.
11:46God is big for
11:46everything,
11:47whether you follow
11:47your culture,
11:48how you eat,
11:49whatever you say.
11:50Parishji,
11:50I don't think
11:51you understand
11:51the difference
11:52between a practice
11:53and a law.
11:53There is a difference
11:54between a practice
11:58but the law
11:59needs to be
11:59same for everyone.
12:00I am not going
12:01to go too much
12:02into the past
12:02but if I can cite
12:03instances from
12:04even 2024,
12:06you know,
12:06Gaurav,
12:07there have been
12:07instances where
12:08high courts
12:09of our country
12:09have allowed
12:10girls as young
12:12as 15 to get
12:13married and I have
12:13said legally
12:14they can remain
12:15married and stay
12:16within their
12:17husband's household.
12:18Subey Khan
12:19versus State
12:19of Haryana,
12:202024.
12:21Rukhsana Khatun
12:22versus State
12:22of N-City of
12:23Delhi,
12:24November 2024.
12:25I can go
12:26and list
12:27I have like
12:28a list
12:29which is
12:29at least
12:3025 names
12:32right here.
12:33See,
12:33this is what
12:34I mean
12:34is the difference
12:35between a practice
12:36and a law.
12:37The way you get
12:38child rights
12:38have to be
12:39respected.
12:40You know,
12:42individual religion
12:42cannot take over
12:43child rights
12:44is the point
12:45you are trying
12:45to make.
12:46One more
12:46quick distinction.
12:47When you go to
12:48a family,
12:49say it,
12:50say it,
12:50say it,
12:51say it,
12:51say it,
12:52say it,
12:52say it.
12:53That is your
12:54religious practice.
12:55You can do that.
12:56But when it comes
12:57to distribution
12:58of this marriage,
12:59when it comes
12:59to the children
13:00born out of this
13:01marriage and their
13:02adoption and inheritance,
13:03when it comes to
13:05the succession laws
13:06in any country,
13:07Varis D.
13:08Varis D.
13:08Let me finish.
13:08Let me finish.
13:09I am simplifying it
13:10for everyone to understand.
13:12The only reason
13:13you are trying to speak
13:13over me is because
13:14I am talking about the country.
13:15Why only when the
13:16states or BJP
13:16government is there?
13:17Okay.
13:18All right.
13:18All right.
13:19I will tell you why.
13:20That also I will tell you
13:21why.
13:21See, the thing is,
13:22Uniform Civil Code
13:23is something which
13:24was not immediately
13:25written in our
13:27constitution,
13:27but it was a direction
13:29given in our
13:30constitution.
13:31Now, when Uttarakhand
13:32manages to implement
13:33it successfully,
13:34Varis D.
13:35Don't speak over me.
13:35This is not done.
13:36I understand.
13:37I understand you want
13:38to talk, but let me
13:39finish and then you
13:39can come in afterwards.
13:40Gaurav, you know what?
13:42Uttarakhand implemented
13:43Uniform Civil Code.
13:44It is no longer
13:44theoretical.
13:45It is practically
13:46implemented.
13:47If I list out marriages
13:48over 4.67 lakhs,
13:51divorces over 395,
13:54registered will 7,285,
13:56live-in registrations 104,
13:59registration of marriages
14:0089,000 onwards.
14:02In the last couple of
14:03years, have you heard
14:04any big hue and cry
14:05coming from the state
14:06of Uttarakhand?
14:07Has anybody gone around
14:08screaming and shouting
14:09and said that this
14:10Uniform Civil Code
14:11has made lives of
14:12Muslims?
14:13So let me quickly
14:14bring in Rajat Sethi
14:16on the question
14:18that is repeatedly
14:19being raised
14:19that this move
14:21that Amit Shah
14:22speaks of Rajat Sethi
14:23is in contravention
14:25of Article 25
14:26Freedom of Religion,
14:27Article 14
14:28Right to Equality,
14:29Article 26 and 29
14:30of the Indian Constitution
14:32that it discriminates
14:35against Muslims in India
14:36and imposes a Hindu way
14:38on them, sir.
14:44I think you're on mute, sir.
14:52Okay, I'll try and
14:53reestablish that link
14:54with you.
14:56But, Saira Shahaleem,
14:58Congress leader
14:58Rashid Alvi also asks,
15:00will the Uniform Civil
15:02Code improve
15:03economic situation?
15:04Will UCC
15:05eliminate unemployment?
15:07Now, do you see this
15:08as core issues
15:09that are being raised
15:10or diverting from issues?
15:12Because, you know,
15:13a young lady
15:14pre-18 getting married,
15:17is that acceptable
15:18in your eyes?
15:19Or should there be
15:20proper child rights?
15:21Should there be
15:22proper laws
15:23which are religion agnostic
15:24when it comes to
15:25inheritance, marriage,
15:27child rights,
15:28divorce,
15:28all of these aspects, ma'am?
15:35Okay, you'll also have
15:36to unmute yourself.
15:41Saira, I think
15:41you're on mute.
15:44Okay, Rajat,
15:44I think I've got you back.
15:46Rajat, respond.
15:47It's a violation
15:48of individual rights
15:50to practice religion.
15:58Okay, I'll come back
16:00to this.
16:00I will come back
16:01to this story.
16:02Can I come in?
16:03Yes, come in.
16:06I just want to conclude
16:07by saying this,
16:08Kaurav.
16:09The misinformation
16:10the opposition spread
16:11even on triple talaq.
16:13We all stand today
16:14to see that it has
16:15helped Muslim women.
16:16This is not about
16:18religion.
16:18This is about equality
16:20and basically equality
16:21for women.
16:21This is about empowering
16:22women and making
16:23them equal citizens.
16:24And I wish that
16:25in the days to come
16:26the opposition
16:27comes around to this.
16:29Very quickly,
16:29I also want to mention
16:30law commission
16:31because the opposition
16:32says the law commission
16:33in 2018 advised against it.
16:35But the law commission
16:36in 2022
16:37when it was reconstituted
16:39opened it.
16:40They started discussions again
16:41and it has been maintained
16:42that uniform civil code
16:43is important.
16:44You know,
16:45in a democracy
16:45there must be a debate.
16:47Everyone must be heard
16:49and then a law made
16:51for the courts
16:52to decide whether
16:52it's constitutional or not.
16:54But that's the story
16:54we'll be tracking very closely.
16:56I want to thank all again.
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