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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination.
00:04News, newsmakers, talking points, Friday night.
00:07Our big talking point, the World Bank says India has registered among the highest poverty declines in the world.
00:15But are those figures to be taken at face value?
00:18What of inequalities? Is that still a big challenge for the country?
00:23Widening economic disparities, yes or no?
00:26Two top voices joining us in a face-off tonight.
00:29Also, the SIR showdown, the big weekend ahead.
00:33Rahul Gandhi versus Modi government now.
00:36What lies ahead on the weekend?
00:39But as always, it's time first for the Nine Headlines at Nine.
00:45In its recently released report, the World Bank claims India witnessed one of the fastest poverty declines in the world.
00:5349.6 crore people lifted out of poverty from 2011 to 2023.
00:59Claims the bank report. Finance Minister Sitaraman hails it.
01:03The opposition says the evidence on the ground is exactly the opposite.
01:08Income inequalities are rising.
01:14Opposition's public impeachment of the chief election commissioner postponed by a day to Saturday due to rainy weather in the
01:21capital.
01:22The BJP doubles down, calls Congress Dimagi Naksal, plans a march of its own to counter the Congress campaign.
01:34Prime Minister rains fire on the opposition in Gujarat, claims Congress trying to gain power through fake news and anarchy.
01:42His supporters say Modi is going nowhere.
01:44The Congress says the Prime Minister is getting more and more desperate.
01:53Now, Home Minister Amit Shah challenges Rahul Gandhi and Akhilesh Yadav for a debate in Parliament over vote chori.
02:00SP Chief Akhilesh Yadav says bring it on.
02:03We've never run away from a debate, but allow Parliament to function.
02:09Six people killed after chopper crashes in Uttarakhand's Chamori district amidst adverse weather.
02:16The chopper took over from Badrinath Dam when untraceable near Joshimat Valley.
02:23The Keralam government pulls up government over major mistakes in plea to cancer minor accused bail in Kochi Mercedes crash
02:37case.
02:38Chief Minister Satishan meets the victim's family, assures justice.
02:45Centre bans construction in the National Capital Region from November 5th to November 20th to control pollution.
02:53Union Minister Bhupendra Yadav tells India today government is taking a hotpot-based approach.
03:02Ajay Devgan moved Bombay High Court against Maharashtra FDA notice over an ad.
03:07Akhtar argues that notice was arbitrarily served directly on him as an actor rather than on the manufacturing company.
03:13This is in connection with doing paan masala ads.
03:19And Binang suffers suspected security breach resulting in an estimated financial impact of $6.3 billion,
03:27making it the largest cryptocurrency theft in history.
03:38But our top focus tonight is a subject that should concern each and every one of us.
03:44For decades, India has been associated with poverty, Garibi.
03:49Now the latest World Bank report suggests that poverty is witnessing one of the fastest declines in the world in
03:58India.
03:58But can these findings be taken at face value or is the methodology flawed?
04:03This is what we will discuss with our experts.
04:06But first today, let's take a look at what exactly the World Bank is saying about a decline in Indian
04:13poverty between 2011 and 2023
04:16and how that is affecting income inequalities as well.
04:21It's our top focus tonight.
04:25India is making rapid advances in its war on poverty.
04:29The latest World Bank report says India lifted 49.6 crore people out of poverty between 2011 and 2023,
04:39making it one of the fastest poverty declines in the world.
04:44India's poverty ratio at $4.2 a day dropped sharply from 57.7% of population in 2011 to 16
04:53.1% in 2023.
05:07Even though the Gini index, which measures inequality, is low at 23, the report warns the top 10% population
05:15earns a median income 13 times higher than the bottom 10%.
05:20While the BJP hailed the World Bank report, the Congress highlighted the agency's concerns on income inequality.
05:40And the World Bank does not just stop here.
05:43The World Bank says that the extreme poverty in India has declined in an unprecedented manner,
05:49which is not seen in any other nation in the 21st century.
05:53The World Bank has itself has said that the income inequality, India has raised from 52 to 62.
06:06The issue with India's inequalities or a country like India, which is a vast country,
06:16a few data points can't answer this kind of thing.
06:20The World Bank attributes the drop in poverty to consumption growth, rising employment,
06:25especially among women, and expanded social transfers, including food subsidies.
06:31But it also flags high wage disparities.
06:34The challenge for the country remains job creation and raising incomes.
06:39Bureau Report, India Today.
06:43Okay, let's raise the big questions.
06:46Has poverty rapidly declined in India, as the World Bank is claiming?
06:50Is inequality still the big challenge facing the country?
06:55Is there an accurate measure for India's poverty line?
07:00Joining me now, Dr. Surjit Bhalla, former Executive Director at the IMF, economist and author.
07:05Also joining me, Professor Santosh Merutra, visiting Professor Centre for Development at the University of Bath
07:11and a research for Institute of Labour Economics in Bonn.
07:15And he's also been previously with JNU.
07:17I appreciate both of you joining us.
07:19I want to come to you, Dr. Bhalla, first, because when I look at the report and I flash it
07:24on the screen,
07:25it appears that this is a remarkable reduction, particularly in extreme poverty.
07:30Just look at the numbers.
07:32As per this report, extreme poverty measured at $3 a day in 2021.
07:37Purchasing terms fell from 27.1% to just 2.6%.
07:43Now, there will be those skeptics who will say, this is true.
07:47Why is the country still giving 80 crore Indians free ration if extreme poverty has fallen so substantially?
07:55Your first reactions to this report.
07:57Yeah.
07:58So, you know, the last part that you mentioned, there are several of us.
08:05Matter of fact, I do not know anybody who's not questioning the fact that the government is giving free rations
08:13to two-thirds of the population.
08:17So, that is not consistent with anything that I know.
08:22However, the fact remains that, you know, and we have in India and around the world measured poverty in various
08:33different ways,
08:34but the world has converged to the World Bank poverty lines.
08:40We started off with Dandekar Rat and so on and so forth.
08:45The fact remains, poverty in India, extreme poverty has been eliminated, which is 2%, 1%, etc.
08:56Second point, that even...
08:58No, extreme poverty, no, sir, can I just, Professor Balla, when you say extreme poverty, what's your measure for extreme
09:05poverty?
09:05When you say extreme poverty, because there have been different poverty lines as you yourself are saying.
09:10Yes, and I'm taking the lowest poverty line, and matter of fact, the lowest World Bank poverty line, and matter
09:19of fact, that is about 30% above the Tendulkar poverty line in real terms, adjusted for inflation.
09:26So, we're really taking a very low poverty line, but higher by our standards, but the World Bank's, it's the
09:36benchmark, it's the gold standard, that's the poverty line for the lows.
09:41Now, the second poverty line that I mentioned is for lower middle-income countries.
09:47Remember, India is classified as a poor country, and that should be one of the criticisms, but we can get
09:54to that later.
09:55But if you're talking numbers, the lower middle-income poverty line, we are down to 15%, one-five, okay?
10:05So, we have not seen, which was by the very low Tendulkar poverty line, we were at 13% in
10:132011.
10:15And by a much higher poverty line, we have the same number of poor.
10:19So, you know, we should talk about what is substantially wrong with India's policies, like you mentioned, that we're still
10:28giving free food to 800 million people, or maybe a bit more.
10:34We are still not reaching any meaningful economic reforms.
10:39That should be the question to ask.
10:41And why we're not doing that is a question to ask.
10:44Okay, I'll come to that, but you're affirming the fact that you believe extreme poverty has been eliminated.
10:51That's what Dr. Bhalla is saying.
10:52Professor Merotra, you want to respond?
10:54Because the report says India has lifted an estimated 496 million people, 49.6 crore people, out of poverty between
11:032011 and 2023.
11:05One of the world's fastest declines in poverty over this period.
11:09And even the share of India's population living below the lower middle income poverty line of $4.20 has also
11:18sharply declined from 57.7% to 16.1% in 2023.
11:26Right.
11:27So, Rajdeep, there's agreement between Surjit and myself that there has been some decline in poverty.
11:35How much decline in poverty there has been, honestly, neither the government is telling us and is not able to
11:44tell us on decline, and nor can the World Bank.
11:50And why can neither the bank or the government tell us that?
11:54Because the 2011 Household Consumption Expenditure Survey is not comparable to the 2022-23 and 23-24.
12:06The methodology has changed completely.
12:10And no one outside of government or outside of the World Bank believes that the two are comparable.
12:18And if they are not comparable, then methodologically, this is an estimate which is flawed in the first place.
12:26Second point.
12:29The fact is that this government has not come up with a poverty line.
12:34At least the previous government and governments, for over half a century, had our own poverty lines, which were based
12:43on consumption expenditure.
12:45And we did regular consumption expenditure surveys.
12:49And those were consistent with each other.
12:51And therefore, it was possible.
12:53So, the estimates that you are looking at on the screen, where you see a trend line, those are based
13:00on consistent poverty lines.
13:02Okay?
13:03There is no...
13:05You can't draw a line from 11 to 22, 23 or 23, 24.
13:11This government has not come up with a poverty line.
13:14It hasn't even come up with its own poverty line.
13:16It is relying upon the bank's poverty line.
13:19Why?
13:20And the World Bank is using a flawed methodology.
13:25Now, let me give you a substantive...
13:27Now, what is the precise flaw?
13:28Let me get that again.
13:29What according to you is the precise flaw in the World Bank's methodology?
13:32The precise flaw is simply that the 11 household consumption expenditure survey was based on one visit.
13:42The 22, 23 to the household.
13:45And this one is based both 22, 23 and 23, 24 are based on three visits.
13:53When you do three visits to the same household, you get automatic increases in recall and automatic increases in the
14:03numbers.
14:04The methodology changed.
14:06The point is the two are not comparable.
14:11We have settled this question a year ago and Mr. Bhalla has used his own methodology when he was in
14:19the IMF and he produced one on the basis of national account statistics.
14:24No one in the world uses national account statistics consumption expenditure, which is in any case in national account statistics
14:32consumption is a residual...
14:34So, you are saying you cannot compare 2011 to 2023 because there is no comparable poverty line data provided post
14:45-2011.
14:46Am I correct?
14:47That's your principle?
14:48Absolutely.
14:49But you are also admitting...
14:51But it's not just that.
14:52Yes, poverty has fallen.
14:53And, of course, the question arises if poverty has sort of disappeared altogether, then why are you giving 80 crore
15:00people free ration?
15:02But it's much worse than that.
15:04I am only not making just a substantive point.
15:06I am making at least four, you know, substantive points.
15:10How does an economy, you know, pull hundreds of millions of people above the poverty line at a time when
15:20its growth rate is actually systematically lower than it used to be, but from 2004 to 2014?
15:27It's systematically lower.
15:29It's 6.2% per annum compared to the 7.8% per annum in the preceding period when we
15:36did pull 140 million people above the Tendulkar poverty line.
15:41Point one.
15:41Point two.
15:43Over that period, the pattern of growth was very different from the one which we have seen over the last
15:4910 or 12 years.
15:50How was it different?
15:51And both the unorganized as well as the organized sectors were growing simultaneously.
15:56And because they were growing simultaneously, jobs were being generated.
16:02In the last 10 years, the unorganized sector has only taken a beating.
16:07And for 10 years, it was in the doldrums.
16:11It lost jobs.
16:12It lost enterprises.
16:14And gross value added is only just recovered to the 2015 level.
16:19So the pattern of growth was very different because of the policy-induced shocks of this government, demonetization, badly designed
16:28GST, badly managed health in COVID.
16:32Thirdly, because job growth, non-farm job growth has fallen, and compared to the previous period when non-farm jobs
16:44were growing at 7.5 million non-farm jobs per annum,
16:47and this government has been claiming, and the World Bank claims in its great wisdom, in this document of October
16:562026, that the government has created 134 million new jobs, according to the current weekly status.
17:05134 million new jobs, 134 million new jobs, which includes half of them in agriculture.
17:10So they are not telling you that.
17:12And they lord the government for increasing female labor force participation.
17:17Do you know that female labor force participation has increased?
17:21But primarily because there's a return of women to agriculture who are on in unpaid family labor.
17:29So the final substantive point, final substantive point is that, in fact, for all these reasons, the pattern of growth,
17:37the slower growth,
17:39what we've seen is inequality increasing and real wages being flat.
17:44So when real wages have been flat for 10 years, how do you see a dramatic fall in poverty?
17:50Please tell me, explain this to me.
17:51Dr. Bhalla might possibly explain this.
17:54Sir, Professor Mehrotra, you have therefore, through that, your fourth substantive point, turned to the next question that I want
18:00to ask Dr. Bhalla.
18:01Dr. Bhalla, you listen very patiently, as I have, to Professor Mehrotra.
18:05Now, one of the more interesting aspects of the World Bank report is on inequality.
18:09India's Gini index is at 23 in 2023, that's down from 28.78 in 2011, suggesting declining consumption inequality.
18:19And yet the same report says median earnings among the top 10 percent of voters are approximately 13 times those
18:26of the bottom 10.
18:28And it also admits that there is a serious problem when it comes to real wages, when it comes to
18:34a flattening of real wages.
18:35How do you then reconcile that with the fact that poverty has then declined so substantially?
18:41You know, I don't know whether the World Bank is mixing apples and oranges and pears, but you certainly are,
18:49and Santosh certainly is.
18:50Now, let me go through the points that Santosh has raised, and then I will get to the inequality point.
18:58Number one, he said, the government hasn't come up with a poverty line for 50 years.
19:06The Tendulkar poverty line came out in 2011.
19:11So at worst, we haven't come up with a new poverty line.
19:16And matter of fact, the Tendulkar poverty line prior to that was 1973-74.
19:22So we should get our facts right.
19:25Number two, I don't know where Santosh is bringing national accounts data into this discussion.
19:32Maybe he has a point there.
19:34I don't think he does.
19:36But it is to say that there are 10 things, you know, we all go by how many points he
19:41raised.
19:42The national accounts has nothing to do with this poverty measure.
19:47And I think Santosh realizes that.
19:49He's smiling away.
19:50But, you know, there's no point bringing national accounts and what I believe and what he believes.
19:56We are discussing numbers over here.
19:59And he can say, I don't believe those numbers.
20:02But let's not bring in completely extraneous numbers.
20:05Okay, so let's come to the numbers, Dr. Bhandari.
20:07One second.
20:08You allowed him a good...
20:10I'll allow you also a free run.
20:12Don't worry.
20:13Don't interrupt.
20:13Third, he said that the methodology is several visits.
20:20Then let us tell...
20:22And previously there was one visit and three visits.
20:26And if he thinks that three visits causes the entire difference, which, mind you, beside him and a few others,
20:34nobody has made that point in the world.
20:37So that's also falsely misplaced.
20:40Last point.
20:42That poverty decline really doesn't have much to do, indirectly it does, but directly with the rate of growth.
20:50If I am down to 4% poverty or 3% poverty, it'll take a lot to remove those.
20:58So you cannot take the average growth rate, which he is doing, and, you know, then claiming that that is
21:07indicative of anything.
21:09I mean, I, you know, this is kind of analysis I have not seen.
21:13Last point.
21:15Now to your point.
21:17About inequality.
21:19Are we talking poverty?
21:22Quality.
21:24Mind you, poverty has to do, as you yourself noted, with the bottom 15% or the bottom 10%.
21:32It really has nothing to do with inequality of the top 90% and the bottom 10%.
21:40And the last point.
21:41On the top 90% to 10%, and this applies equally to you and Santosh and the World Bank,
21:48the 90% to 10% ratio is only meaningful if you tell me what it was before.
21:57How do I know that the 90% to 10% that the Great World Bank is quoting is meaningful
22:03to the debate that we are having?
22:06I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why, Dr. Balla, you know, the report points, Dr.
22:12Balla, Dr. Balla, the report points out that real earnings have remained broadly unchanged and employment growth was concentrated in
22:19relatively low productivity activities.
22:22That's what the report says.
22:23So I'm trying to make sense of that.
22:25That answers your question.
22:28Because poverty has to do with low productivity workers.
22:31They have low wages.
22:32It's an econ 101.
22:34It doesn't have to do with the middle class.
22:36If you had said, and the middle class has been hurt and their rate of growth has declined, and this
22:43gets to the earlier point, between 2004 and 2011, the middle class really benefited.
22:50Maybe that is why they lost the election in 2014-15, and the poor did not benefit that much.
22:56There was hardly any employment growth for the bottom 40-50%.
23:01So 2004 to 2011, the entire growth story was geared towards the middle class.
23:09Now it's geared towards the poor.
23:11But that's the question to ask.
23:14It's geared towards the poor.
23:15The story of poverty decline in India is yesterday's story.
23:20You now have only 2% poor.
23:23And even if you take but a higher poverty line, you have 16% poor.
23:29What is the government going to do for the future, for the present?
23:33So therefore, you guys are talking about yesterday's story.
23:36No, no, no, I'll come to the future in a moment, but I'll press you one more time.
23:40Because when you say that the last 10 years, the focus has been on the poor as opposed to the
23:47middle class in the previous 10.
23:48The very fact that the unorganized labor itself has struggled, as you well know, particularly post-COVID, also post-Demonetization.
23:57Are we saying, I don't know, are we saying therefore that that is not, that there are, that enough jobs
24:03have been created for those at the bottom of the pyramid?
24:05Is that what your contention is?
24:08Yes. Please let us do numbers.
24:10Let us not do ideology.
24:13Let us not do polemics.
24:15You give me the numbers, Rajdeep, for the bottom 50%.
24:19And then let's talk.
24:21But you don't.
24:22Okay, Professor Merotra, that's a fair challenge that Professor Bhala is putting.
24:28Give me the numbers to show that the bottom 50%, when you say jobs haven't been, he says, in the
24:34last 10 years, the poor have, have got benefits, welfare benefits in particular.
24:40The previous 10 years, the middle class got benefits from 2004 to 2014.
24:44If you believe otherwise, give data to disprove him.
24:48Data, not ideology.
24:50Yeah, yeah, I don't think I was giving ideology earlier.
24:54And I'm not going to give you any more ideology.
24:56I don't need to, because I'm hoping that Professor Bhala has actually been reading my book.
25:04And it's all been...
25:05Go ahead, go ahead.
25:06But let me explain.
25:07Give me a hard data point.
25:09Yeah, yeah, I'm giving you a hard data point.
25:11I gave you that and I'm going to repeat it.
25:13The fact of the matter is that because it was a growth period over 2004 and 2014, was a simultaneous
25:24growth in the organized sector as well as the unorganized sector.
25:28And non-farm jobs simultaneously grew.
25:31Who would non-farm jobs be growing for?
25:34Obviously for the bottom 50%.
25:41And if the unemployment rate was stable at 2%, youth unemployment rate was stable at 6%, and it was 6
25:53% in 2012, when the government...
25:57That's the last point for which we have government data.
26:00It tripled by 2017, 2018, Rajdeep.
26:05Youth unemployment triples.
26:07And that's the main reason why.
26:09And that happens because unorganized sector jobs collapse.
26:13And that's the main reason why real wages are not growing.
26:17Now, Dr. Bhalla can surely not claim that if real wages remain stagnant, then poverty should be declining at the
26:28rate at which it has been declining.
26:30Finally, let me ask Dr. Bhalla the following.
26:34Last question.
26:35May I, Rajdeep?
26:36Yeah, right.
26:37He has not answered this question, and the World Bank needs to answer this question.
26:41By the PLFS, the absolute number of workers in agriculture, which was systematically dropping for 15 years after 2004,
26:53it has increased by 80 million by the UPSS in four years from 2020 to 2024.
27:01And by the World Bank estimate, in this report itself, it's increased by 65 million, by a slightly different measure.
27:10If you increase the absolute number of workers in agriculture, do you expect real wages to be increasing?
27:16These are the people at the bottom of the...
27:18I've heard you.
27:19That's why you are paying...
27:20That's why you are giving 80 crore workers.
27:24Professor Brutra, I've heard you.
27:25Can I answer?
27:25Yeah, yeah.
27:26Now answer that, Dr. Bhalla.
27:28Okay.
27:29Just numbers.
27:30Between 2004 and 2011, the job growth in India was at the rate of 0.93% per annum.
27:42Between 2011 and 2024, job growth more than doubled to 1.96% per annum.
27:51Now, the complaint, as I say, is really you guys...
27:58Well, let's not say you guys.
28:00Let us talk, you know, when you say that the middle class or MSME is at the upper income level,
28:09you're not talking about the poor.
28:13And the job growth has benefited the poor.
28:18Matter of fact, another fact that Santosh will know very well, that if you look at the NSS, PLFS data,
28:27has something called casual workers and something called salaried workers.
28:33I would say all of us would agree that salaried workers are not poor, but a large proportion of the
28:42casual workers are poor.
28:45Casual workers have seen a growth in real incomes from 2011 to 2024 at 3% per annum.
28:54The salaried workers have seen a negative growth in real incomes, real salaries.
29:02That's the story.
29:04I keep telling you guys.
29:05Yeah, but that's one of the...
29:06That's one story.
29:08One other story, as Santosh Merotra is pointing out, the number of people dependent on agriculture have also increased and
29:14on farm labor have also increased.
29:16One second.
29:16I'm sorry, I have to interfere.
29:19One second.
29:20Are we talking about the poor or are we talking about agriculture?
29:24Just decide what debate you want to have and I'm happy to have that.
29:30Professor Merotra's point, I think, is that because he claims that if poverty had declined so sharply, why is it
29:37that the number of people dependent on agriculture have grown in this period?
29:42And therefore, his belief is that is clear indication that poverty has not declined to the amount the World Bank
29:47is claimed.
29:47That's his claim.
29:48That's his claim.
29:49And real wages.
29:50And real wages.
29:53Since you said this is a debate of yes, I just want both of you and I'm going to give
29:58you a minute each.
29:58That claim does not deserve an answer.
30:00Sir, I'm going to give you a minute each, you are two fine minds.
30:02I just want to put up a graphic and you respond to it.
30:04In India, the top 1% of the population holds 40% of the country's total wealth, as I said.
30:10The top 10% holds 65%.
30:12The middle 40% accounts for 28.6% of the total wealth, whereas the bottom 50% owns just
30:196.4%.
30:20Now, this is the World Inequality Report.
30:22So, while I think there is an agreement that poverty has declined, we can sort of debate as to the
30:28extent of it.
30:29But there is an acceptance that poverty has declined, extreme poverty in particular.
30:33Income inequality still remain a challenge.
30:35And I want both of you to address that in a minute each.
30:37You, Professor Merotra, first.
30:39Do you believe that that remains the big challenge for a government?
30:42The government is tom-toming extreme poverty down.
30:45The real challenge is inequality still remain staggeringly high.
30:50You're right.
30:51Extreme wealth inequality, extreme income inequality, to the extent that we have been able to measure it,
30:58and the WIL has made a valiant effort to do so, does show that it has increased very dramatically in
31:06the last 10 years.
31:07Point one, point two, the consumption inequality decline that I think you were showing numbers about,
31:15and which the World Bank also seems to laud, is highly problematic for the following reason,
31:22and I've written about this a year ago when the government was tom-toming this decline in consumption inequality.
31:29The fact of the matter is that consumption is, when you measure consumption, there is always very low inequality.
31:39Income inequalities are much, much higher.
31:42The genie on income inequality is much, much higher.
31:45And in India, we don't do an income survey.
31:49Surajit is currently chairing a committee on that survey.
31:52So, the bottom line is inequality is a very serious problem in our country which has worsened, and let's not
31:59wish it away.
32:01Okay. Sir, your one minute is up.
32:03Professor Menotra, final minute to you, Dr. Bhalla.
32:06You know, first, Santosh is right, you're right, I'm right.
32:13Income inequality is a very different issue than consumption inequality.
32:20So, that's, we completely agree.
32:23Second, I would rather not look at World Inequality Report for the following reason,
32:29that they had claimed that the top 1% in the U.S., income had gone, share of income, had
32:40gone from something like 10% to 23%.
32:43The conventional wisdom in the U.S., amongst economists of all stripes, is that it went from 10% to
32:5312% or 13%.
32:55Why the difference?
32:56The difference is, apart from the World Inequality, Piketty calculations, is that more meaningful measure is disposable income, net of
33:09taxes.
33:10Because, after all, taxes cannot come from the poor.
33:13So, the taxes have to come from the top, and more so from the top than anybody else.
33:19And I think the same kind of calculation should be done in India, is being done by me and my
33:27co-authors, and the report will be out soon.
33:30And therefore, not the income distribution report of the survey, but a private analysis or an academic analysis.
33:38So, I think, let's have a separate session.
33:43We'll have a separate debate on it.
33:44Okay, I think we will.
33:45And let's not confuse the two.
33:47I will accept that.
33:52We'll wait for your report.
33:53But clearly, this World Bank report has triggered a healthy debate.
33:56And I'm glad that the debate needs to be fought on data now.
34:00Not on ideology, but on hard data.
34:03Professor Merotra has written a book on it.
34:05Dr. Balla, you've researched extensively on it.
34:08I thank both of you for joining me here on a debate which, fortunately, is free of the political slanging
34:14match for ones that we see on television.
34:17Thank you both for joining me.
34:18Okay, I'm going to turn from there to a potential political slanging match.
34:22Because the National Capital is bracing for a weekend of political face-offs.
34:26The India bloc is gearing up for back-to-back protests against the Chief Election Commissioner and the SIR exercise.
34:32BJP is preparing a counter-march, bringing even 1984 riot victims and Sikh community members onto the streets.
34:39Home Minister Amit Shah challenging the opposition to debate the issue in Parliament.
34:44Let's take a look.
34:52The stage is set for a weekend showdown.
34:56Over the next two days, the India bloc is planning two major protests against the Chief Election Commissioner and SIR.
35:02On Saturday, the opposition will hold a public impeachment of Gyanesh Kumar, which was cancelled today due to rains.
35:09The main protest will be on Sunday, when all opposition parties will march to Ramlila Maidan, where they will hold
35:16a rally.
35:17The Prime Minister is trying his best to stop people from coming into Delhi.
35:24Millions of people are being disenfranchised.
35:28Their vote is being stolen from them to help Mr. Adani, Mr. Ambani, Mr. Modi, Mr. Shah and Mr. Bhagavad.
35:38The BGP is planning a counter-protest on Sunday.
35:42More than 5,000 people, largely from the Sikh community, including 1984 riot victims, will be led by party leaders
35:50like Hardipuri in a march from Tilaknagar to Harinagar at 11 a.m.
35:54Home Minister Amit Shah, who was in Uttar Pradesh to strategize for assembly elections, has hit out the India bloc
36:01over their agitation against CEC.
36:28As things stand, both sides are not ready to yield an inch.
36:33The face-off over SIR is set to escalate even further.
36:37Bureau Report, India Today.
37:03Spokesperson joining me at the moment.
37:06I want to come to you, Siddharth Yadav, first, because suddenly the BJP seems to have decided they are going
37:11to carry out a march of their own of Sikh victims of 1984.
37:15I mean, are you now trying to even politicize 1984 as your counter because the Congress is planning a rally
37:24at Ramlila Maidan?
37:25I mean, is that how you want to play politics?
37:32You're on mute, sir.
37:33You're on mute.
37:36My apologies, Rajdeep.
37:37Good evening and good evening to all your viewers.
37:40Rajdeep, I think what politics is, that should be defined very correctly when you make that opening remark.
37:46Politics is when a leader of opposition chooses not to debate a sensitive issue in the courts, not to debate
37:53that sensitive issue in the parliament.
37:55Rather, he seizes an opportunity of speech-making in a Maidan and let go of all other constitutional remedies.
38:04But you're not allowing it.
38:06With due regard, sir, where is the debate being allowed in parliament?
38:0950, more than 50 MPs signed an impeachment notion as per the provisions of Gyanesh Kumar.
38:14And the government has not allowed a debate on it.
38:19So if you won't allow a debate in parliament, what is the opposition supposed to do but go to the
38:23street?
38:24Rajdeep, you would remember that there was a proposal for the debate from Honorable Home Minister
38:30when the leader of opposition had denied that opportunity and he walked out.
38:34He said, we do not want a debate in the parliament and therefore a debate did not happen.
38:39Probably we have not seen such instances in the history of our country.
38:42When leader of opposition, so the opposition per se, chooses not to debate in the parliament,
38:47rather they want to do propaganda building on the streets.
38:50But that's not the point tonight.
38:52What you made in the opening remark, I need to address to that.
38:55What is 1st of November?
38:56Is it a political day?
38:57Is it something that the BJP is doing politics on?
39:011st of November is a date where the Sikh community faced a massacre on the streets of the national capital
39:09of our country.
39:10Sajjan Kumar, former Congress leader, the second life sentence that he faced
39:14was for the killing of a father-son duo in Saraswati Vihar on 1st of November in 1984.
39:19When such a sensitive date, when the Congress party itself was accused of being involved in such acts of massacre,
39:30which is so sensitive to one community in our country,
39:33Rahul Gandhi chooses that date out of 365 days to do a political stunt in the national capital?
39:39Is that not politics?
39:41Is that not political convenience?
39:42So their political stunt will be matched by your political stunt?
39:45You said you were different.
39:46You're also doing a political stunt?
39:47I'm sorry, Rajdeep.
39:50What we are doing is our constitutional right.
39:52What we are doing is representing the sentiments of the Sikh community.
39:55And what they do is not their constitutional right.
39:59So when you protest, it's legitimate.
40:01When they protest, it's illegitimate.
40:03Is that what you're saying?
40:04Absolutely not, Rajdeep.
40:05My simple question is, is Rahul Gandhi deliberately choosing 1st of November out of 365 days?
40:12Is that a deliberate choice?
40:13He could have done it on 31st.
40:15He could have done it on 2nd, the Sikh community urged.
40:18Forget what the traders are saying.
40:19Forget what the traders are saying ahead of Diwali.
40:22Because when you're calling everybody in a Chalo Delhi campaign from all over the country,
40:26and you wish, because you know that you don't have enough numbers in Delhi or in NCR,
40:30you're calling people from Kerala and Tamil Nadu to join your march in Delhi.
40:33Forget what the traders are saying.
40:35I'm asking you a question.
40:36When Congress parties, Rahul Gandhi's late father and former prime minister of this country had made a remark,
40:43we saw so many deaths on the streets of Delhi of one community.
40:50The date was 1st of November.
40:51Why is Rahul Gandhi choosing 1st of November?
40:53Is it a deliberate attempt to hurt the feelings of the Sikh community?
40:58That's the question.
40:59Okay, I've listened to you.
41:01I've listened to you.
41:02I mean, we can let Salman Sos respond to that.
41:04The BJP is now saying, why 1st of November?
41:10Well, Rajdeep, I would only ask the BJP leadership,
41:14why they did not do something like this on November 1st, 2025,
41:20November 1st, 2024, November 1st, 2023, November 1st, 2022,
41:28or any of the November 1st in the last, I don't know, 12, 13 years.
41:34They will argue they are doing it because you are doing a march on that day.
41:37No, no, no.
41:38I'll tell you why.
41:39I'll tell you why they're doing all this drama.
41:42They're doing all this drama because they're petrified by what is going to happen on November 1st.
41:48A sea of people are going to come to Delhi, to Ramlila Maidan,
41:54to fight for the rights of Indian citizens who have been disenfranchised.
42:00And, you know, you would think that the BJP would join us
42:04and demand of the Election Commission to restore the voting rights of 13 crore Indians.
42:12But what is, with due regards, sir, how is the sea of people,
42:16how is the sea of people going to change anything?
42:18BJP is very clear, Gyanesh Kumar is going nowhere.
42:21Today, Amit Shah made it very clear, they're firmly behind Gyanesh Kumar.
42:24Look, let me just say, let me just say something about the Home Minister as well.
42:29He talked about how they're going to have a discussion in Parliament, etc.
42:32This is the same Home Minister who, after the brutal attack on students in Delhi on September 20th,
42:39he was nowhere to be seen in Parliament after that.
42:43What discussion is he going to have with us?
42:45So as far as we are concerned, you know, and just because the Home Minister or the Prime Minister says
42:52nothing is going to change, do you think that that is all there is in this country?
42:56We represent half the country.
42:59They represent half the country.
43:00If you look at the voting shares of the two blocs, the India bloc and the NDA,
43:05very close to each other.
43:07So they should, they should, I want to disabuse them of this notion that they own India.
43:12They own this country.
43:14They don't own this country.
43:16No, no, so what is that?
43:17You're not answering my question.
43:19How is the sea of people on November 1st going to change anything?
43:22This is, this is part, what do you mean?
43:25This is, protesting is part of our culture.
43:31And when the government is not listening to the public, the public has a right to be out there
43:40and force the government to, you know, into accountability.
43:44Because this government thinks that it's not accountable.
43:46But we are making sure that the government understands.
43:49The people of the country are watching.
43:51The people of the country are no longer going to take your nonsense.
43:55You make them stand in queues.
43:57Poor people standing in queues, missing their daily wages,
44:01so that they keep filling out forms,
44:04keep proving that they're citizens, they have no shame.
44:07They did this during demodetization.
44:09During COVID, they were nowhere to be seen
44:12when bodies were flowing through the rivers of this country.
44:16And then they take the voting rights of 13 crore people?
44:19How can they?
44:20I have listened to you.
44:22You know, Siddharth, the question will come of accountability.
44:25Whether the Congress protests on November 1st
44:28or December 1st or January 1st, frankly, is immaterial.
44:31The right to protest is a fundamental right.
44:34When the BJP was in the opposition, you used to regularly protest.
44:37Suddenly, when the Congress protests, it becomes anti-national.
44:41See, you are trying to delegitimize a protest.
44:43Rather than that, actually, the government of the day
44:47should be answering the serious question the opposition is raising.
44:50Or actually, the ECI, the Election Commission,
44:53should be answering the questions of accountability.
44:55Democracy is about accountability.
44:57Mr. Yadav?
44:59Rajdeep, I can understand that you might not find it an issue
45:02that 1st of November was chosen deliberately.
45:04I can understand that the Congress party might not find it an issue.
45:07We find it an issue.
45:08The Sikh community finds it an issue.
45:10The people of Delhi find it an issue.
45:11We can have a difference of opinion.
45:13We can be on different pages.
45:15But if that is a sentimental issue,
45:17because that was something that cannot be forgotten,
45:19that's a scar on the democratic setup of our country,
45:23that is something that the people have actually felt in their lives.
45:26Now, Rahul Gandhi can feel he's a Shahzad in this country
45:28and he can do whatever and whenever.
45:31And, you know, probably it suits his vacation plan
45:33back from Vietnam, going to Bangkok.
45:35This 1st of November is best suited.
45:37That can be his plan, but not ours.
45:39This is point number one.
45:40Point number two, you know, my learned friend from the Congress party
45:44probably has not done enough research.
45:46He said, what were you doing last year?
45:47What were you doing, you know, in 2021, 2022?
45:51It was only after 31 years that the Modi government formed an SIT
45:55into the issues of Sikh massacre that happened in the national capital,
45:58after which that justice was actually served.
46:01The closure that the Sikh community got after the particular incident,
46:06which was tried to be buried by the Congress party and their leaders
46:09to save their leaders over so many years,
46:12was finally settled when Prime Minister Modi's government came into power
46:16and the issue got settled.
46:17Now, Congress party, you know, for so many years,
46:20have tried to sideline the issue, hide the issue,
46:23So, they will came, you have sidelined the issue of Gujarat 2002.
46:27So, let, you know, your riot versus my riot is a very dangerous game to get into, sir.
46:34I am sorry, Rajdeep.
46:48I am sorry, Rajdeep, I am sorry to say that I don't do any goalposts shifting,
46:59I don't do any comparisons brawn,
47:00it's so unfortunate that if I talk about the Sikh community massacre,
47:04you have to bring in any other riot or you have to bring in any other propaganda.
47:08It's so sorry to hear this.
47:19But let me say this, I am coming on the agenda.
47:24You can feel that the Congress party can feel that a sea of people
47:27or a thousand people or two hundred people or two people
47:30can come question and change the chief election commissioner
47:33and we are backing the chief election commissioner.
47:35Sorry, we are not.
47:36There is a constitutional process that has to be followed.
47:40Two people, two hundred people, two lakh people.
47:42Those can't change the chief election commissioner.
47:44There is a process, a parliament process that has to be followed.
47:47And it is so unfortunate that the Congress party doesn't believe in the constitution,
47:52doesn't believe in the democratic constitutional processes.
47:54And they would only want to continue with propaganda because they have to have someone.
47:58I have to give him equal time.
48:00I have heard you.
48:01Salman, there is a point in what Siddharth Yadav says on constitutional processes.
48:05The matter is before the Supreme Court.
48:08The government will say, let the Supreme Court complete.
48:10My first initial question, will this matter be settled on the streets or in the courts?
48:14The matter is before the courts.
48:15Rahul Gandhi himself has petitioned the courts.
48:17Wait for the courts.
48:18Why this impatience?
48:20By the way, thank you, Rajiv.
48:22But let me just tell my young friend that when you come on TV, you do proper research.
48:27That's good.
48:28They should also answer.
48:30I mean, you know, this is drama, right?
48:32The Sikh community knows that this is drama because these people are...
48:36The Modi team has basically done nothing but drama for the last 12 years.
48:40Why did they organize and...
48:41Say it's roof.
48:42Why did they organize...
48:44Please don't interrupt me.
48:45I did not interrupt you.
48:46No, but you're not answering my question, Mr. Sow.
48:48I will answer your question.
48:49In 2021, by the way, the BJP organized a Maharashtra agitation on November 1.
48:54Why did they do it on November 1?
48:57Because they drama...
48:58You don't understand the difference between Maharashtra and Delhi?
49:01Please, please, please, please don't interrupt me.
49:03I did not interrupt you.
49:04Just be quiet.
49:06As far as your question is, Rajiv, it is our right to agitate for what we believe.
49:14And what we believe is that this government, through the Selection Commission of India,
49:20is trying to hijack democracy in this country by stealing votes from legitimate voters in this country.
49:28These guys say, and the whole minister says that there are infiltrators in this country.
49:33Then he should be fired.
49:34He should be sacked.
49:35Why are there infiltrators in this country?
49:37And by the way, they found, what, a thousand, less than a thousand people who are foreign nationals.
49:44And most of them are Nepalese.
49:46And some of them have left the country.
49:49I hope I gave...
49:52Out of 13 crore people...
49:53No, no, you gave him more time.
49:55Out of 13 crore people, they found less than 1,000 people who are...
49:58We are foreigners.
49:59I have heard both of you.
50:00And most of them are Nepal.
50:01I have heard both of you patiently.
50:03You can decide what is a public...
50:05What is drama?
50:06What is spectacle?
50:07What is a push for accountability?
50:09What is a legitimate...
50:11They're scared, Rajiv.
50:12They're scared.
50:13Okay.
50:13They're scared, you're saying.
50:15And according to the BJP, you're hurting the sentiments of the Sikh community by doing it on the first.
50:21Siddharth, Salman, good to have both of you on the show tonight.
50:24Thank you very much.
50:25Let's turn to tonight's Get Real India story.
50:27A bank account is meant to secure your hard-earned savings.
50:31But for several families in Greater Noida, that trust has turned into a nightmare.
50:35Nearly 22 crore rupees has allegedly vanished from a Punjab National Bank branch with even fixed deposits being wiped out.
50:42Among the victims are families who had parked their Jewar Airport land compensation in the bank.
50:48The CBI has registered an FIR after bank authorities filed a complaint with the central agency.
50:54Take a look at tonight's Get Real India story.
51:00An alleged multi-crore bank fraud in Greater Noida has left several account holders in distress.
51:07Approximately 22 crore rupees has gone missing from the Punjab National Bank branch in sector Pi 1.
51:14The accounts impacted include fixed deposits too.
51:18Preliminary findings indicate the funds were transferred to accounts in Jharkand.
51:23Many among the victims have immediate expenses to meet.
51:58Many of the victims have lost money they got as compensation for their land that was required for the Jewar
52:05International Airport.
52:06And the people have lost money they got as penalties and left when they got injured when they got injured.
52:17For the 33 millionaires who have died in hospital.
52:18Once the percentage of the guests were taken in cash in the Krampan,
52:19My daughter kept us from a hospital.
52:22I have received an annual donation on P vidékin's family.
52:23My daughter had my parents, my daughter was retired,
52:24making money that they got his brother,
52:24went to 35 million dollars for me.
52:26Now you go to $25 million.
52:27And you lose money and you lose money.
52:31You lose money.
52:46The bank claims it has started returning money to the victims.
53:09The bank has suspended five employees. The rest of the staff at the branch have been replaced.
53:15According to the police, 37 people have filed complaints so far.
53:20While a police probe is underway, the bank authorities have filed a complaint with the CBI as well.
53:26Even as the bank officials reassured the account holders and promised return of their money,
53:31how a fraud of such scale could escape the notice of multiple bank employees remains a mystery.
53:39Vitarun Tyagi, Bureau Report, India Today.
53:46An eye of our controversy surrounding PNB in that story.
53:50Okay, just about enough time to leave you this Friday night with our image of the day ahead of the
53:55weekend.
53:55And the Bihar Museum in Patna has been ranked ninth in the world's top hundred museums picked by an international
54:03travel magazine called Worth a Journey.
54:06It's even been ranked above Paris' Louvre and New York's Met Museum.
54:11Industrialist Anand Mahindra in a social media message called it a seminal moment of recognition.
54:15If you haven't been to Patna and haven't seen the museum,
54:19aapne dekha hi kia hai.
54:21To be honest, it is a wonderful museum that truly documents the rich history of Bihar that was once Patliputra.
54:30Do go to Patna and get a glimpse of that truly well-curated museum in Patna.
54:38So, that's the image of the day.
54:42Well done to all those behind it.
54:44Credit also to Nitish Kumar and his team who had conceptualized this several years ago.
54:50That's our image of the day.
54:53Thanks for watching.
54:54Stay well.
54:55Stay safe.
54:56Jai Hind.
54:58Shubhraatri.
54:59Namaskar.
55:04Namaskar.