- 5 weeks ago
US Ambassador to India Sergio Gore visited Srinagar, taking a shikara ride on Dal Lake and holding talks with Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah to strengthen India-US diplomatic engagement.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savan.
00:03The images I'm about to show you will give people in Pakistan,
00:07and especially Pakistan's leadership, a heart attack.
00:11Of course, those who peddle the same agenda in India will also be very uncomfortable.
00:16That is U.S. Ambassador to India, Sergio Gaur,
00:20also U.S. Envoy for Southern Central Asia,
00:22taking an hour-long Shikara ride in the Dal Lake in Srinagar.
00:26Ambassador Gaur called Kashmir incredibly beautiful and an important part of India.
00:33He then held a detailed meeting with Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Umar Abdullah.
00:37They had discussions that focused on the relationship between India and the United States of America,
00:43and what can be done to deepen that engagement with Jammu and Kashmir.
00:49Umar Abdullah made India's position equally clear.
00:52Ahead of the meeting, the Chief Minister said,
00:54Washington, D.C. will not solve our problems.
00:58The centre will.
00:59He said he would rather listen to the U.S. Envoy
01:02than have any complaints or make a complaint to him,
01:06because no outsider will solve our problems.
01:09Making it clear, Jammu and Kashmir, any issue,
01:12whether it's statehood or any other issue,
01:14it's between the Union territory and the centre,
01:17or the state is very clean, Jammu and Kashmir is very keen,
01:21that statehood will be restored as quickly as possible.
01:25But these are issues for the centre to resolve.
01:27No role for a foreign power here.
01:30There are legacy issues that need to be addressed,
01:32but that's a separate story.
01:33Ambassador Gaur also praised the improvement in security in Jammu and Kashmir,
01:38saying both the centre and the government in Jammu and Kashmir,
01:42they've taken what he said were incredible steps to make the region safer.
01:48Washington, D.C. is now looking at whether the travel advisory,
01:53the travel warning for Jammu and Kashmir can be downgraded,
01:57so that a large number of American tourists who want to visit Jammu and Kashmir can do so.
02:02And that would be a big boost to tourism in Jammu and Kashmir.
02:06In fact, former chief minister of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir,
02:10Mehmooppa Mufti, made that point very emphatically,
02:13that we need many more tourists, international tourists in Jammu and Kashmir,
02:18because tourism is a very important lifeline.
02:21But I want to show you two images.
02:23One, you have this image of Ambassador Sergio Gaur,
02:27Ambassador Gaur taking that Shikara ride,
02:29and an hour-long Shikara ride on the Dal Lake.
02:31So that shows you the security situation in Jammu and Kashmir.
02:36Contrast this with what's happening across the line of control
02:40in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
02:43Now, that is Indian Kashmir illegally in Pakistan's control.
02:47So while Sergio Gaur was taking that peaceful Shikara ride in Kashmir,
02:51in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir,
02:53there are protests that continue against Pakistan military's occupation,
02:58and the manner in which Asim Munir is starving the people of Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
03:05That's literally happening.
03:06I want you to look at images, and we'll show you images of convoys of food trucks
03:13that have been stopped from entering Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir from mainland Pakistan.
03:20There are internet and communication restrictions that have been made in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
03:26Protest groups in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir have claimed that authorities have restricted
03:32even the movement of food, medicines, ata, the very basic.
03:38Look at that image on your television screen.
03:40Long convoys of food trucks, they're not being permitted to enter Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
03:46Medicines are not being permitted.
03:47Food is not being permitted.
03:49Water is not being permitted.
03:51Milk is not being permitted.
03:52That's the problem people face there.
03:54Pakistan repeatedly claims Kashmir is its juggler vein.
03:59Imagine the hara kiwi.
04:01Imagine that mindset of Asim Munir that he's cutting his own juggler vein.
04:07At least that is what they claim.
04:09But look at the way Kashmiris are protesting.
04:14Electricity is generated from rivers in POJK.
04:17But look at that electricity.
04:20Pakistan's Punjab benefits from it, not the people of Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
04:25And how does Pakistan respond to this?
04:27They open fire at the protesters.
04:30Mindless arrests are taking place.
04:32So on one side, you have a democratically elected government.
04:36Omar Abdullah is the chief minister.
04:38And fiercely fought elections in Jammu and Kashmir.
04:41There was a fight for every vote.
04:45National conference, PDP, BJP, Congress, independents, other parties.
04:51There were these very fierce elections in Jammu and Kashmir.
04:54On the other side, Pakistan's ISI wants to ensure its chosen people are in power in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and
05:02Kashmir assembly.
05:03And the people there say, no, enough is enough.
05:06In the good old days, you could lie to them.
05:08But in this interconnected world, when everything's on internet and you can see what's happening everywhere.
05:12Look at the number of IITs, IIMs, AIMs, other educational institutions, roads, infrastructure projects, everything that's coming up in JNK.
05:21And what's happening across in POJK?
05:24Pakistan Army continues to exploit that territory.
05:27Whether it's POJK or Pakistan-occupied Gilgit and Baltistan, both that form, that are Indian territory, illegally in Pakistan's control.
05:35Incidentally, Sergio Gaur would be travelling to Ladakh.
05:38And then again, people of Pakistan-occupied Gilgit and Baltistan can see the development that's taking place in Ladakh.
05:45The contrast could hardly be sharper between democracy and Pakistani dictatorship.
05:518.30 tonight, we look at that big political controversy in the state of Uttar Pradesh.
05:58The enforcement directorate has now stepped up heat on Samajwadi Party's Aazam Khan.
06:03Now, there are searches that are going on even as we speak at 10 different locations across Rampur, Saharanpur, Delhi,
06:11suburbs of Delhi.
06:12There are multiple search operations by the ED.
06:15And this is a part of alleged money laundering probe linked to the Moulana Mohamed Ali Johar Trust and Johar
06:21University.
06:22The enforcement directorate is probing the alleged diversion of government contract funds through private contractors
06:28and whether the money was subsequently channelized to this trust and university through donations and construction-related payments.
06:35The raids come amidst a separate controversy over the Johar University where authorities have ordered action against 38 allegedly unauthorized
06:42buildings,
06:43though the demolition has been stayed for now.
06:47Samajwadi Party's supremo Akhile Shahdav, he's hit out at the BJP, accusing it of targeting those who build educational institutions.
06:56Of course, they're absolutely silent on the fact that land of Muslim villagers was usurped.
07:03They were coerced and they've made complaints and that is how the land, an attempt is being made to restore
07:10the land to original owners.
07:11But that's a story that we bring to you at 8.30 tonight.
07:14We get you all sides of the story.
07:16But first, I want to take you to Kashmir for the latest.
07:20I want to get you Ambassador Sergio Gore's remarks and Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's remarks.
07:26It's a significant diplomatic message.
07:29It's after a very long time that a U.S. ambassador actually visited Srinagar.
07:33And this perhaps will sting Pakistan and Pakistan's Army Chief, Field Marshal Asimuni.
07:39U.S. ambassador to India, Sergio Gore, on his first ever visit to Jammu and Kashmir,
07:43called Jammu and Kashmir an important part of India.
07:46Now, usually India says, and rightly so, JNK is an integral part of India.
07:53It's an inalienable part of India.
07:54When a foreign ambassador, the U.S. ambassador says it's an important part of India, what does this mean?
08:00We'll decode that.
08:01Sergio Gore arrived in Srinagar.
08:02He's on a two-day visit.
08:04One day in Jammu and Kashmir, day two in Ladakh.
08:07He held talks with Chief Minister Omar Abdullah.
08:10But this visit is much more than mere optics of Sergio Gore on a Shikara on the Dal Lake.
08:17Sergio Gore said, Washington, D.C. recognized significant steps taken by India and the Jammu and Kashmir government
08:23to improve security in the valley and indicated U.S. will review its existing travel advisory for Jammu and Kashmir.
08:30Will it downgrade it?
08:32We'll be tracking that story.
08:33No decision announced yet.
08:35And he made it clear, there will be no headlines.
08:37They will study, they will assess.
08:39After all, one, there are lives at stake.
08:42And two, if I may add here, remember, Jammu and Kashmir is a victim of Pakistan's state-sponsored radical Islamist
08:49terror.
08:49Any advisory would boost tourism in Kashmir.
08:53And tourism is a very important part of the economy of Jammu and Kashmir.
08:58Chief Minister Omar Abdullah made one thing very clear.
09:01Kashmir's issue will not be resolved by Washington, D.C. or in Washington, D.C.
09:05Ahead of this meeting with Sergio Gore, the Chief Minister said, and I quote,
09:09Washington won't solve our problems, the centre will.
09:13And the message is significant because it shuts the door precisely on any kind of perceived or, you know,
09:22if foreign powers may want to intervene, no, there is no scope for them to intervene.
09:26There is no scope for any third-party mediation.
09:29Any conversation, and India has made it clear, very repeatedly made it clear,
09:33any conversation with Pakistan will be bilateral in a peaceful environment
09:38and on retaking Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
09:42There's no other conversation.
09:44But first, listen in to what was said in Srinagar.
09:50Nobody here knows I'm the U.S. Ambassador to India, and this is an important part of India,
09:56and so I'm here visiting for the first time.
09:59It is an incredibly beautiful place, and so I'm thrilled to be here, thrilled to see this place.
10:06We just had a very good meeting, and we have some follow-ups that we hope to take back to
10:10Washington,
10:11back to Delhi.
10:11But a very warm, a very cordial, and we look forward to building this relationship forward.
10:18They don't listen to us, but we don't have to take any of our problems from them.
10:24It is not my habit that I will say to a foreign ambassador to a foreign country.
10:31We don't have to do our issues, and we have to do our issues, and we have to do our
10:38local government.
10:51I want to quickly bring into this conversation Major Adil Raja.
10:55He's a former Pakistan Army officer, understands the Pakistan Army well,
11:00third-generation officer, currently living virtually in exile in the United Kingdom.
11:05Major Raja, welcome, Ambassador Ashok Sajjanhar, former top-ended diplomat, joins us on the broadcast.
11:11Ambassador, I will come to you, but let me just get a quick word from Major Adil Raja.
11:16Major Raja, Pakistan Army chief virtually did a sajda in front of U.S. President Donald Trump.
11:27Cryptocurrency, offering him parts of Gilgit and Baluchistan, all of that done, recommending him for a Nobel Peace Prize, all
11:36of that done.
11:37But this statement, you know what Kashmir calls its, Pakistan calls its Sheher Rag, Kashmir.
11:44The U.S. says it's a very important part of India.
11:46How would Asim Munir perceive this? How would Pakistan perceive this vis-a-vis Asim Munir?
12:05Okay, give me a moment as we try and re-establish that link with Major Adil Raja in the United
12:09Kingdom.
12:10Ambassador Sajjanhar, Kashmir is an important part of India, says the U.S. ambassador in Srinagar.
12:17How would you decode this? It's an important part of India.
12:22Usually we say it's integral, it's inalienable.
12:24When the U.S. says it's an important part of India, how would you decode that, sir?
12:29Yeah, first of all, thank you very much, Gaurav, for inviting me.
12:32And in the same vein, I compliment you for your introductory comments.
12:38I think you've touched all the right chords and ticked all the right issues.
12:44When he says that it's an important part of India, there is a recognition that it's a significant movement
12:50from what the United States used to maintain earlier, that it is disputed territory.
12:55You would recall that in the 1990s, when Robin Rafael was the Assistant Secretary of State in the United States,
13:02she always maintained it was disputed territory.
13:06After that, there has been a significant movement when the United States maintains that it is an important part.
13:13You know, we cannot expect the United States to use exactly the same language,
13:17that it is an inalienable part, it's an inseparable part, it has always been, will always stay, etc.
13:23But in essence, this is exactly what he means, that it is a part of India.
13:28So this claim by Pakistan that it is disputed territory, that doesn't stand on any firm ground.
13:36The other is that the security situation is very good.
13:39He showed it, you know, he walked the talk.
13:42It's not only that he mentioned it while staying in Delhi.
13:47He went there, he went for the Shikara ride.
13:49We are showing those images.
13:51The security situation is very good.
13:53So even for the naysayers in Pakistan, around the world, and even in India,
13:58who say that, you know, things are not that good,
14:01I think that is also a very clear message.
14:03If you permit, I'll just make two very quick other points.
14:07So, number one, you were asking Mr. Raja as to what is Mr. Munir going to think about,
14:14Field Marshal Munir going to think about this.
14:16I think India needs to be ready.
14:18Because India, as it is, all these things, what has been happening,
14:23Mecca defense pact, security pact with Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.
14:26And what Mr. Trump has been saying, that would have emboldened Aasem Munir.
14:32And this would come as, you know, sort of a stab in the back.
14:37That the United States, which they thought was standing along with Pakistan,
14:42they are going back on this very, very important issue.
14:46Interesting point to make, Ambassador.
14:48Stay with me for a moment.
14:49Major Raja joins us again.
14:51Adil, if you can hear me.
14:52Is this a huge setback for Aasem Munir?
14:56He recommended President Trump for a Nobel Prize.
15:01The narrative that Pakistan has built over decades on Kashmir,
15:05is it slipping out of Pakistan's hands?
15:08Well, Gaurav, it's definitely a blow to not only Field Marshal Aasem Munir,
15:12but also that the policy of the Pakistani military establishment
15:16and the Pakistani policy, at one hand, the situation in AJK,
15:21Pakistan-administered Jammu and Kashmir, is almost out of control.
15:26And on the other hand, Mr. Sergio Gore, once he makes this statement,
15:31he's not only Ambassador of the United States to India,
15:35but he is also the U.S. Representative for South Asia
15:40in the absence of a permanent ambassador in Pakistan,
15:45because in Pakistan, the deputy head of mission is the charge of the affair.
15:50Natalie Baker is running the affair.
15:54So by all respects, and as per the diplomatic protocol,
15:58Mr. Sergio Gore is the senior most diplomat in the region,
16:02representing the United States of America,
16:05and him making this statement is most definitely a huge blow
16:09to not only Field Marshal, but to the military establishment
16:12and the GHQ and headquartered ISI in APARA.
16:16Interesting you say that. You're absolutely right.
16:18He's also, you know, on way to South Central Asia.
16:21Michael Kugelman is senior fellow South Asia Atlantic Council,
16:25joins us on this broadcast. Michael, welcome back.
16:28You're reading of the U.S. President, U.S. Ambassador
16:32in Jammu and Kashmir, in Srinagar,
16:36saying Kashmir is an important part of India.
16:41Well, yeah, great to be back here with you.
16:44If the U.S.-India relationship was looking for a boost,
16:47it got one today, for sure.
16:50This is pretty significant.
16:53Keep in mind, though, that this Trump administration
16:55is very unconventional, and it's also very unpredictable.
17:00So even though the U.S. ambassador made this very significant comment
17:04about Kashmir being an important part of India,
17:07we don't necessarily know if this reflects a social U.S. policy.
17:11Let's wait to see if the U.S. embassy comes out
17:14with some sort of readout reflecting Gore's visit to Srinagar
17:18to see if there's any additional context or information
17:22that's provided there.
17:24But on the face of it, and just, you know,
17:26a literal read of what Gore said,
17:29not just in terms of his comment about Kashmir
17:33being an important part of India,
17:34but also his view that the U.S. should look into
17:37easing the travel advisory,
17:39those are big wins, potentially, for the Indian government.
17:43But again, I think we have to be careful now.
17:45We've seen just how much this administration
17:48is inclined to support Pakistan.
17:50And once this administration recognizes
17:52that Gore's words will not go down well,
17:54would not have gone down well in Pakistan,
17:57who knows, we might see a shift in tone.
18:01But absolutely, on the face of it,
18:02what the U.S. ambassador said today was very significant
18:05because I'm not saying it reflects U.S. policy,
18:08but what he said goes against many years of U.S. policy
18:11when it comes to the issue of Kashmir.
18:13And of course, that U.S. policy has been to stay out of it
18:16and not take a position.
18:18Okay. Ambassador Sajjan Har,
18:20you know, there are analysts who say
18:22America would want to say all the pleasing things
18:25to India in India
18:26and all the pleasing things to Pakistan in Pakistan
18:30and wait for what the State Department ultimately does.
18:35You've been a diplomat for decades.
18:38How would you look at this, Thail?
18:41Well, in a manner of speaking,
18:43there might be some substance in this,
18:45but what I would say,
18:46there are plenty of unpleasant things
18:48that the United States has said on Indian soil.
18:51You'd remember in Raisina Dialogue
18:53when we had a U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense
18:58who said that, you know,
19:00we have burned our fingers by allowing,
19:02by supporting China to become so powerful
19:05and we are not going to repeat that mistake again.
19:07It was said on Indian soil.
19:09And as far as Mr. Trump is concerned,
19:11irrespective of the statements,
19:13positive statements he's made about the Prime Minister,
19:16he has taken not only said,
19:18but taken very unhelpful steps
19:21as far as India is concerned,
19:23whether it is 50% tariffs on import of,
19:27because India is importing Russian oil,
19:30because not signing on to the bilateral trade,
19:34interim bilateral trade agreement, etc.
19:36So I don't think that there is much substance.
19:40I'm sure this is an issue that has been discussed at length
19:44in the U.S. State Department,
19:46after which Sergio Gore would come.
19:48One other point I would make is
19:50that Sergio Gore is not only U.S. ambassador
19:53to South and Central Asia as well as India,
19:56but he's also a close confidant of Mr. Trump.
20:00I think that is also to be factored in,
20:03because, you know,
20:04any ordinary ambassador making this statement
20:08could have been taken in a different vein.
20:11But this is an ambassador who was able to get
20:14Donald Trump on telephone line
20:17when they were celebrating 250 years
20:19of the U.S. independence, you would recall,
20:22in Bharat Mandapam.
20:25And so he has a direct connect to Donald Trump.
20:29So I don't think the State Department
20:31is going to do anything
20:32that will puncture the statement
20:36that he has made on the Indian soil in Kashmir.
20:40Interesting you should mention that.
20:41And as far as Pakistan is concerned,
20:43Major Raja,
20:44is there a case of U.S.
20:46perhaps unhappy with Aasem Muneer,
20:49the field marshal,
20:50over-promised and under-delivered,
20:53even on the Iran front?
20:55The state of Hormuz remains extremely contentious,
20:58even now.
20:59And Iran is not listening
21:00to the United States at all.
21:02So is this, you know,
21:04that message to Aasem Muneer
21:05or to Pakistan
21:06that they're now being put in their place?
21:11That's a very important point, Gaurav.
21:14But before I go ahead
21:16and answer this point,
21:17let me, you know,
21:19address the point brought by Michael Kugelman.
21:22While I believe what he's saying is right,
21:24the present Trump administration
21:25is inclined towards, you know,
21:28supporting the present regime in Pakistan.
21:30But having said that,
21:32the relationship between
21:33the United States of America and Pakistan
21:35is a transactional relationship.
21:37And the transaction would have materialized
21:40if a Pakistani strongman,
21:43Field Marshal Aasem Muneer,
21:44would have delivered on Iran,
21:46as you've brought out.
21:47But he failed to deliver on Iran.
21:49Now, once we are talking about Kashmir,
21:52one thing should be kept in mind,
21:54that Kashmir is the link
21:55of Pakistan with China.
21:58And China,
21:59in the context of the great power rivalry,
22:02is directly at, you know,
22:05directly a contender
22:07to the U.S. influence in the region.
22:10So, any statement on Kashmir
22:12and the status of Kashmir
22:13has to be carefully ascertained
22:16in this context.
22:17And I don't believe
22:18that Mr. Sergio Gore...
22:22Okay.
22:23Michael Kugelman,
22:24your reading of this,
22:26China is also
22:26in illegal occupation
22:28of a part of Jammu and Kashmir,
22:30which was illegally ceded
22:32by Pakistan to China,
22:34the Shaksam Valley, 1963.
22:37Do you think
22:38that Pakistan will now go running to China,
22:41saying,
22:43help,
22:43buttress our case,
22:44U.S. is closer to India?
22:49No, I don't think so.
22:50I don't think we should
22:51overstate the impact
22:53that what Gore said
22:55in Kashmir will have
22:56on U.S. relations
22:57with Pakistan
22:58or with India,
22:59for that matter.
23:01Again,
23:01I don't know
23:01if we've heard the end of this.
23:03I wait until we see
23:05if there's a readout
23:06or a statement
23:07from the U.S. Embassy
23:08or the State Department
23:09more broadly
23:09about Ambassador Gore's visit
23:12to see if there's a qualification
23:14of what he said.
23:15I don't know.
23:15We'll have to see.
23:17But,
23:18yeah,
23:18as I said before,
23:20you know,
23:20this is a rare obstacle
23:22for U.S.-Pakistan relations.
23:23I mean,
23:24that relationship,
23:24I agree with what
23:25Adil Rajah said.
23:26It's a transactional relationship.
23:27It's not a deep relationship,
23:29but it's got a very positive tone
23:31and feel to it
23:32here in Washington.
23:33I mean,
23:34it's been a long time
23:35since Pakistan
23:36was mentioned so much
23:37in Washington
23:38in positive ways
23:39as it is now.
23:40So,
23:41even what Gore said.
23:41That does reflect
23:42that U.S. has a very myopic view
23:44on security.
23:45After all,
23:46Pakistan was involved
23:47in deaths of U.S. personnel
23:49and hiding
23:50Osama bin Laden
23:52in Abbottabad
23:53and yet Pakistan
23:54is spoken of so positively.
23:55And may I ask you,
23:57Michael,
23:57why is the U.S.
23:59you know,
24:00so lenient
24:01in the killings
24:02of people
24:02in Pakistan
24:03occupied Jammu
24:04and Kashmir,
24:04the massacre
24:05that's taking place
24:06in different parts
24:07of Pakistan
24:08and POJK.
24:09Now,
24:10why these blatant
24:11double standards?
24:13No,
24:14I mean,
24:14again,
24:14I mean,
24:15this administration
24:16is very unconventional.
24:19And,
24:19I mean,
24:20as you know,
24:21until the Trump administration
24:24came to office,
24:25you know,
24:25U.S. relations
24:26with Pakistan
24:26had not been the best.
24:28I mean,
24:28they hadn't been
24:28in deep crisis,
24:29but they hadn't been
24:30the best.
24:30But, you know,
24:31this is an administration
24:31that,
24:32this is a president
24:33that takes a very
24:34narrowly defined focus
24:36when it comes
24:37to foreign policy.
24:38Trump looks at
24:38foreign relations
24:39through the lens
24:40of commercial opportunities
24:41and so on,
24:41and he sees Pakistan
24:42as a country
24:43that can be helpful
24:44through what it's offered
24:44with critical minerals
24:46among other things.
24:47And so these types
24:47of considerations
24:48that you're mentioning
24:49are not going to
24:50figure prominently
24:51in the thinking
24:52of the administration
24:52when it comes to Pakistan.
24:54But getting back
24:54to very briefly
24:55what I was saying before,
24:56the U.S.-Pakistan
24:58relationship is still
24:59in a pretty good place
25:00and I don't necessarily
25:02think that what Gore
25:03said today
25:03is going to hurt it
25:04in a big way.
25:05Who knows?
25:06You know,
25:06who knows?
25:07I mean,
25:07Sergio Gore might
25:08make a visit
25:09to the other side.
25:10He may go to AJK.
25:12I mean,
25:12we can't rule that out.
25:14And I'm sure
25:14if he went there,
25:15he would say
25:15very nice things
25:16that would make
25:17Pakistan happy
25:18and would not
25:18make India happy.
25:20If he were to visit
25:21Pakistan-occupied
25:22Jammu and Kashmir
25:23with the violence
25:25that is happening
25:25there right now
25:26when people
25:27are starving,
25:29when they don't
25:29have access
25:29to flour,
25:31to food,
25:32to medicines,
25:32and then he says
25:34that it's a nice place,
25:35Ambassador Sajjan Haar,
25:37nobody would buy that.
25:38The world is seeing
25:39what's happening
25:39in POJK
25:40and POGB.
25:43Yeah,
25:44no,
25:44you're very right.
25:45Gaurav,
25:45I would tend
25:45to agree with you.
25:46I think his
25:48credibility
25:48would be mud
25:49or worse than mud
25:50if that is
25:52what he would say.
25:53Because I think
25:54ambassadors
25:54have to say
25:56good things,
25:56positive things,
25:58but they have to
25:58maintain the credibility
25:59also.
26:00So I think
26:00just flipping
26:02to the other side
26:03saying that
26:03he will go there
26:04and he will say
26:05good things,
26:06I don't think
26:07that is going
26:08to happen.
26:08But yes,
26:09I tend to agree
26:11that this is
26:14possibly,
26:15we should not,
26:16it's a very
26:16significant statement
26:17that has come.
26:18It's an important statement.
26:19We need to welcome it
26:21for both the contents,
26:23Gaurav,
26:23that you mentioned.
26:24Number one,
26:25the security situation
26:26in Kashmir
26:27has improved,
26:28which is what
26:28Indian government
26:29has been maintaining.
26:30The 2019
26:31has been a positive
26:32development
26:33as far as
26:33Kashmir is concerned.
26:34And also that
26:35it's an important
26:36part of India.
26:37So I think
26:37we should take it
26:38as that.
26:38But it doesn't mean
26:39that all the
26:40problems between
26:41India and
26:42the United States
26:43have been resolved.
26:43There are very
26:45many other issues,
26:46very many other
26:46problems on which
26:47we will continue
26:48to work.
26:48And let's see
26:49if the relationship
26:50actually comes
26:51on an even keel.
26:52But Major Raja,
26:54if Washington
26:54were to downgrade
26:56the travel advisory,
26:58an indication
26:58that security
26:59situation in JNK
27:00is improving,
27:02and when you
27:03look at the situation
27:04in Pakistan-occupied
27:05Jammu and Kashmir,
27:05does that weaken
27:06Pakistan's case
27:07internationally,
27:08though it doesn't
27:09have a case,
27:10but whatever case
27:10Pakistan may perceive
27:11it has,
27:12does it weaken
27:12it entirely,
27:14and especially
27:14Aasem Munir's
27:15narrative?
27:17Well,
27:18Gaurav,
27:18firstly,
27:18I agree with
27:19Michael Kugelman
27:20once he says
27:20that the
27:21Pakistani regime
27:22enjoys a very
27:23good cordial
27:24relationship and
27:25very positive
27:26sentiments in
27:27Washington,
27:27D.C.
27:28with the Trump
27:29administration,
27:29and the reason
27:30is that they
27:31have spent
27:32$500 million
27:33of investment
27:35of borrowed
27:35money in the
27:36Trump family
27:37cryptocurrency
27:39enterprises,
27:40and also
27:40they're spending
27:41millions of
27:42dollars every
27:42month.
27:43They loan that
27:44money,
27:45and then they're
27:45spending it
27:46on lobbying
27:46in the K
27:47Street and
27:48Washington,
27:48D.C.
27:49But that
27:50lobbying and
27:51that positive
27:52sentiment and
27:53good vibes
27:54have got a
27:54shelf life,
27:55and what is
27:56the shelf life?
27:57That is yet to
27:58be seen,
27:59obviously.
27:59Till the time
28:00Pakistan's keep
28:01on delivering
28:02on the front,
28:03they're promising.
28:04Well,
28:04obviously,
28:05the balancing
28:06act would be
28:07played,
28:08and in the
28:08case of
28:09Pakistan,
28:09we've always
28:10known that
28:11it is the
28:11U.S.
28:12Department of
28:12Defense whose
28:13recommendation
28:14really mattered
28:15in Washington,
28:18D.C.,
28:18and now the
28:19Pakistanis are
28:20playing this
28:20unconventional
28:21game with an
28:22unconventional
28:23president in
28:23which the
28:25Pakistani
28:25regime is
28:26wooing him
28:27directly through
28:28his family
28:29enterprises and
28:30the way things
28:30are being
28:31done currently
28:32in Washington,
28:33D.C.
28:33No one knows
28:34what's going to
28:35happen next,
28:36obviously.
28:36But if at
28:39one side the
28:40travel advisory
28:41for Indian
28:42Administrative
28:43Kashmir is
28:44downgraded or
28:45it is allowed
28:46for the U.S.
28:47National to
28:48travel over
28:49there in
28:50Indian
28:50Administrative
28:51Kashmir,
28:52well, Michael
28:53Tugelman said,
28:54well, Mr.
28:55Sergio may go to
28:56the Pakistan
28:57Administrative
28:57Kashmir next,
28:58but he
28:59cannot go
29:00over there
29:00under the
29:00current
29:01circumstances,
29:01it's not
29:01going to
29:02happen.
29:02So you
29:02never really
29:03know where
29:04we are
29:05heading.
29:05But November
29:06election in
29:07the U.S.,
29:08I believe Michael
29:08Kugelman would
29:09put us wise,
29:11will decide,
29:12the result of
29:13those elections
29:13will decide
29:14what policy
29:15would be
29:16followed in
29:17the future
29:18regarding South
29:19Asia.
29:20Is there
29:21an apprehension
29:22that because
29:23Pakistan will
29:24be so
29:24nervous about
29:26a U.S.
29:27ambassador's
29:27visit, about
29:28rise in
29:29tourism in
29:29Jammu and
29:30Kashmir, about
29:31JNK flourishing
29:32ambassador
29:33Sajjanhar,
29:34that God
29:35forbid there
29:36could be
29:36another
29:36Pahalgaam
29:372.0 kind
29:38of a
29:39Pakistan
29:39state-sponsored
29:40radical Islamist
29:41terror attack
29:42to tell the
29:42world Kashmir
29:43is still a
29:44contentious issue
29:45between India
29:46and Pakistan?
29:48No, you're
29:49absolutely right.
29:49You know,
29:50this is what
29:50I tangentially
29:51referred to.
29:52If there's
29:52going to be
29:52Pahalgaam
29:532.0,
29:54there's going
29:55to be
29:55Opsindur
29:552.0
29:56because
29:57Opsindur
29:57has been
29:58put on
29:59hold.
30:00It has
30:00not been
30:01completely
30:02done away
30:02with.
30:03But does
30:04the Mecca
30:04agreement
30:05give Pakistan
30:05some kind
30:06of confidence
30:06ambassador in
30:07your view
30:08that Saudi
30:09Arabia and
30:10Turkey will
30:11come to
30:11Pakistan's
30:12assistance
30:12because now
30:13there's an
30:14agreement and
30:15China anyway
30:16helped Pakistan
30:17according to
30:17reports during
30:18Opsindur?
30:20You see,
30:21I don't think
30:21that Turkey
30:23or Saudi
30:23Arabia will
30:24come to
30:24the aid
30:25because we
30:25have seen,
30:26you know,
30:27even the text
30:27of the agreement
30:28has not been
30:28released so far.
30:29There is no
30:30control and
30:30command structure
30:31that has been
30:32put in place.
30:33We have seen
30:33that the Houthis
30:34have been
30:35bombing Aramco
30:37and Saudi
30:38ships.
30:39There have
30:39been no
30:40move from
30:41Pakistan or
30:42from Turkey
30:43to come to
30:43the aid of
30:44Saudi Arabia.
30:44So at the
30:45moment, I
30:46think it is
30:47only on
30:47paper, this
30:48Mecca defense
30:49pact, it's
30:50only on
30:51paper, it's
30:51only signaling
30:53that has been
30:54done.
30:54I don't think
30:55there is going
30:55to be anything
30:56happening.
30:56I think what
30:57China helped
30:58Pakistan in
30:59the first
31:01instance, that
31:01will in terms
31:02of intelligence
31:03and equipment
31:04and also
31:05Turkey in
31:05terms of
31:06drones, that
31:06will come.
31:07But I
31:08think the
31:08sort of
31:10defeat that
31:11was given
31:12to Pakistan,
31:13it would be
31:14mindful that
31:15it doesn't
31:16have an
31:17easy way
31:18if it
31:18starts.
31:19But yes,
31:20diplomatically,
31:21for the first
31:21time, such
31:22massive cost
31:23was imposed
31:23on Pakistan,
31:24even though
31:25Pakistan doesn't
31:26like to talk
31:27about it.
31:28But if a
31:28country has
31:2912 of its
31:29airfields
31:30bombed, and
31:31Major Adil
31:32Raja can
31:32give us a
31:33military
31:33assessment, but
31:34before that, I
31:34want to bring
31:35in Michael
31:35Kugelman on
31:36the Mecca
31:36agreement.
31:37Is there an
31:38apprehension that
31:40Pakistan emboldened
31:41after the
31:42Mecca agreement,
31:43would try and
31:43carry out a
31:44terror attack
31:44thinking that
31:45India this
31:46time will
31:47not do an
31:47Operation Sindhur
31:482.0, and
31:49that it's
31:51checkmated India
31:52through this
31:53Mecca agreement?
31:56Well, I think
31:57it's quite clear
31:58that, at least
32:00to me, the
32:00Mecca agreement
32:01is not necessarily
32:02going to help
32:02Pakistan if it
32:05were to face a
32:06future conflict
32:07with India, I
32:08mean, just
32:08given the
32:09nature of Saudi
32:10Arabia's
32:10relationship with
32:11India.
32:13If there were
32:13to be a new
32:14conflict between
32:15India and
32:15Pakistan, would
32:16Saudi Arabia
32:17come to
32:17Pakistan's
32:18defense militarily?
32:19No, I don't
32:20think so.
32:21It might be
32:21more willing to
32:22mediate, more
32:22likely, but
32:23beyond that, I
32:24don't see that
32:25much happening.
32:27Let me just
32:27clarify one
32:28thing.
32:29I was not
32:29suggesting before
32:30that Sergio
32:31Gore is about
32:32to go into
32:34Pakistan-administered
32:35Kashmir.
32:36I'm saying that
32:36at some point,
32:37I would not be
32:38surprised, especially
32:39if things calm
32:40down, if he goes
32:41there in his
32:42capacity as
32:43special envoy
32:43for South and
32:43Central Asia.
32:44The previous
32:45U.S.
32:46ambassador to
32:46Pakistan, Donald
32:47Blom, went
32:48there at a
32:49moment when U.S.-India
32:50relations were
32:50better than they
32:51are now.
32:52But my point is
32:52that with this
32:53administration, they're
32:54willing to play
32:54both sides, and I
32:56would not rule out
32:57if conditions
32:58allow, and I
32:59agree it would
32:59take a lot for
33:00conditions to
33:00allow a U.S.
33:01official to go
33:02there, I would
33:03not rule out
33:04Sergio Gore going
33:05there and saying
33:06things that would
33:07sound good to the
33:08Pakistani government,
33:09quite frankly.
33:09I just think we
33:10need to remember
33:11that this is a
33:11very unconventional
33:12administration, the
33:14way that it goes
33:14about things.
33:16So this is
33:17already mid-August,
33:18what do you
33:19think happens, as
33:19Adil put it, you
33:21know, what happens
33:21in November, would
33:23that decide a lot
33:24August to November,
33:26the next two years
33:27of Trump
33:27administration?
33:29I mean, I
33:30think it's quite
33:31likely that the
33:31Democrats are
33:32going to make
33:32major gains in
33:34those elections,
33:35but these types of
33:36elections, with the
33:38exception of certain
33:38issues like the
33:39war in Iran and
33:40other big things,
33:41they don't typically
33:42have any significant
33:44implications for
33:45foreign policy when
33:46it comes to policy
33:47toward South Asia,
33:49including relations
33:50toward India and
33:51toward Pakistan.
33:51So I would not
33:53overstate those
33:53impacts.
33:54A lot of
33:54implications for
33:55U.S.
33:56domestic policy, but
33:57not as much for
33:59foreign policy.
34:00I think that the
34:01war in Iran is
34:02something that will
34:02figure in those
34:03elections, just
34:03because it's a very
34:04unpopular war here
34:05in the United States
34:06and because of the
34:07impact it's had on
34:08the global economy
34:09in ways that have
34:10hurt Americans,
34:11food inflation,
34:12that type of
34:12thing.
34:13But when it gets
34:13to how to approach
34:15Pakistan and India,
34:16I don't think we
34:16should overstate the
34:17impact of those
34:18mid-terms.
34:19Sure.
34:20So, you know,
34:21Major Adil Raja,
34:22wear your military
34:23hat for a moment.
34:24There's the blue land
34:25and the red land
34:26when military exercises
34:27are carried out.
34:28And think like the
34:28enemy, and in your
34:29case, I'd like you
34:30to think like
34:31Asim Munir.
34:32After Pehalgaam,
34:33there was an
34:34Operation Sindhur
34:35and multiple
34:36Pakistani air bases
34:37were bombed,
34:40multiple radar
34:40stations, radars,
34:42they were taken
34:42out, military
34:43installations were
34:44targeted.
34:45Would Asim Munir
34:46again try a
34:48Pehalgaam 2.0
34:50if he's thinking
34:51out of the box
34:52that, you know,
34:53thinking I have a
34:53Mecca agreement,
34:54or would he have
34:55those wounds of
34:56Operation Sindhur
34:57fresh in his mind
34:58and think that the
34:59impact next time
35:00would be even
35:01bigger and perhaps
35:03even from the sea?
35:05Gaurav, the Mecca
35:06defense agreement
35:07is an agreement
35:08in which Pakistan
35:09is going to
35:10provide troops
35:11for money,
35:12essentially mercenaries.
35:13Saudis or the Turks
35:14are not going to
35:15come to defense,
35:17in the defense of
35:18Pakistan.
35:18It's quite obvious
35:19and I agree with
35:20Michael Gugelman.
35:21Now, regarding
35:22Operation Sindhur
35:24and its aftermath,
35:25let me please
35:26tell you that
35:27the information
35:27warfare management
35:29from the Indian
35:30side was,
35:31really below
35:32average because
35:33the Pakistani
35:34information operations
35:36really, you know,
35:37controlled the
35:38narrative, even
35:39in the US when
35:40President Trump
35:41keeps on increasing
35:42the down jets,
35:44the Rafale jets.
35:45So, obviously,
35:46it is the
35:46information operation
35:47at the global
35:48level where the
35:49Pakistani military
35:50has, you know,
35:52by part.
35:53Actual impact on
35:55ground.
35:55You see, if
35:56multiple bases
35:58are bombed,
35:59information warfare
36:00is one side.
36:01But, Gaurav,
36:03nobody in Pakistan
36:04knows that the
36:05Indian Army and
36:06the Indian Armed
36:06Forces have
36:07actually come down
36:09in Pakistan and
36:10they've hit the
36:11centers of
36:12Jais-e-Mohamad,
36:13they've hit almost
36:14all the important
36:16air bases.
36:17Nobody talks about
36:18it, this document
36:19They may not talk
36:19about it, but when
36:20a bomb falls.
36:21It shocked the
36:22DGISPR.
36:23DGISPR woke up
36:24from his sleep at
36:252 o'clock, 2 o'clock
36:26in the night and
36:27he gave this, you
36:28know, balderdash
36:29tweet, you know.
36:31So, the Pakistanis
36:31simply do not know
36:33that what actually
36:34happened.
36:35But Indian, Indian
36:36military hit
36:37Jais-e-Mohamad's
36:38centers.
36:39Now, those people
36:40have been killed.
36:41The Mujahideens
36:42and or whatsoever
36:44you may like to
36:44call them, the
36:45militant camps have
36:46been hit and they
36:48are seeking revenge
36:49inside India.
36:50But if I may, if
36:52I may, I want to
36:54They've been given
36:54a green light.
36:56They've been given
36:56a green light.
36:57That's a very
36:57important thing that
36:58you're saying that
36:59terrorists have been
36:59given a green light
37:00to target India.
37:01But the fact is
37:03when a Brahmo
37:04supersonic cruise
37:05missile comes and
37:06hits a military
37:07base, it's not a
37:09secret.
37:10Civilians also feel
37:11the thud, hear the
37:13sound, see the
37:14fireball, it's all
37:15over internet, even
37:16in Pakistan.
37:18So they may choose
37:19to deny it
37:20Ambassador Sajjan
37:20Har.
37:21The fact remains
37:22from Bolari in
37:23Sindh, through
37:25Mureed Ke, through
37:26Mushaf, through
37:27Sargodha, through
37:29Noor Khan, you
37:30know, through
37:31Raheem Yahr Khan,
37:32Jacob Abad, one of
37:34the most important
37:35air bases, they
37:36were bombed by
37:37India.
37:38It can't be kept
37:39a state secret.
37:40Bombs fall, everyone
37:41sees.
37:42Aasim Munir knows
37:43this.
37:44Shaba Sharif says,
37:44Ham toh ji attack
37:46karne wale thi,
37:46India ne peale
37:47kar diya.
37:49Ji ji ji, I'm
37:50bilkul thik kereh
37:51hai hai, Gaurav.
37:52You know, you
37:52can't really hide
37:54these things, but
37:55then when a country,
37:57its leadership and
37:58its people are used
38:00to living in denial,
38:01because for them, 1971
38:03was a victory, 65 was
38:04a victory, all the
38:06wars that they have
38:07fought against India
38:08have been, they have
38:10been victorious.
38:11Then, you know, it is
38:12not a far stretch to
38:13say that even as far
38:15as Afshidur was
38:17concerned that Pakistan
38:18emerged victorious,
38:19but I think those who
38:21know, they definitely
38:22know what the reality
38:23on the ground was.
38:24Because even TikTok
38:25in Pakistan,
38:27absolutely,
38:28Instagram, Twitter,
38:29TikTok, it's all
38:30over social media
38:31in Pakistan, but I've
38:32run out of this, on
38:33the debate on this
38:34part.
38:35I want to thank
38:35Michael Kugelman,
38:36Major Raja and
38:37Ambassador Sajjan Har
38:37for joining me.
38:38Before I take a
38:39break, I want to
38:40just quickly put out
38:41a message of JNK
38:42Chief Minister
38:43Omar Abdullah on
38:44what Gen Z or
38:45somebody claiming to
38:46be Gen Z did.
38:47So amidst this whole
38:48Gen Z storm,
38:49Jammu Kashmir Chief
38:49Minister Omar Abdullah
38:52has, I want you to
38:53look at that video
38:53and I want you to
38:54listen to what
38:55Omar Abdullah said.
38:56He warned that
38:57VR Gen Z is now
38:59becoming the new
39:00and that is such
39:04a typical thing
39:05for people to say
39:07when they claim
39:08that they want it
39:09their way or
39:11highway.
39:12He added that the
39:12quickest way to
39:13erode any Gen Z
39:14goodwill is to
39:15start using it as
39:16a threat at the
39:17slightest perceived
39:19affront.
39:20Listen in to what
39:21this young lady
39:22did.
39:25son.
39:26They're not
39:27What are you doing
39:28doing here?
39:32We are Gen Z
39:33we are not
39:34tolerate this nonsense
39:36we are not
39:37tolerate this nonsense
39:38after
39:39you
39:39perhaps
39:40you
39:40fit
39:40or
39:40not
39:41sit
39:41or
39:41not
39:42care for
39:43please
39:44come
39:44for
39:44I don't know who my father is, we'll track that story, a quick break, on the other side.
40:11Samajwadi Party leader Azam Khan raids carried out by enforcement directorate across 10...
40:18...and university allegations of alleged money laundering. That story coming up, stay with us.
40:27The legal trouble seems to mount for jailed Samajwadi Party leader Azam Khan. It's intensifying.
40:33Enforcement directorate has carried out searches at 10 different locations, 10 different premises linked to Azam Khan.
40:40The Mawlana Muhammad Ali Johar Trust and the Muhammad Ali Johar University.
40:46The searches were conducted across Rampur and Saharanpur in Uttar Pradesh and in Delhi...
40:51...as part of investigations into alleged money laundering under the Prevention of Money Laundering Act.
40:58The enforcement directorate is looking into allegations that money received through government contracts...
41:02...was rerouted or routed through private contractors and subsequently transferred or used as donation...
41:10...for construction work and assets connected to the Johar University and Trust.
41:14The Muhammad Ali Johar University in Rampur was a very ambitious education project...
41:18...closely associated with Azam Khan and the Mawlana Muhammad Ali Johar Trust.
41:24The university's story goes back to 2005 when Uttar Pradesh government permitted the trust to acquire...
41:29...around 400 acres of land for this project.
41:32The university received government authorization to begin its academic operations by 2012.
41:37Then Chief Minister Akhilesh Yadav, again of the Samajwadi Party, inaugurated the university in September that year.
41:42In 2013, the university was granted minority educational institution status...
41:47...but once the Yogi Adityanath government was sworn into power in Uttar Pradesh in 2017...
41:53...villagers actually came out and spoke up.
41:56Allegation service over land acquisition or forced land acquisition...
42:01...encroachment and multiple other irregularities involving land associated with the university and the trust...
42:08...including allegations that books were stolen from a library and forcibly taken to the Muhammad Ali Johar University.
42:17One major legal battle was around 3.24 acres of government lease plot.
42:23The Uttar Pradesh government cancelled the lease alleging violations of its conditions...
42:26...and saying that the land was allotted for a research institute but was being used for other purposes.
42:32In March 2024, the Allahabad High Court dismissed the challenge.
42:35In October 2024, the Supreme Court dismissed the trust challenge as well, effectively upholding the cancellation of the lease.
42:42The Supreme Court also made very strong observations about the circumstances in which the government land...
42:46...had been allotted to the trust when Aazam Khan was a minister in the Samajwadi Party government.
42:53The latest controversy surrounding the university is different.
42:55This time, the issue is not ownership or illegal acquisition of land...
43:00...but the legality of construction on the campus and the way money was routed for this construction.
43:06Was it a kickback for contracts that the government had issued is the allegation.
43:11We'll get you more on the story over the next several days, but I want to quickly bring in our
43:16guests.
43:16Toohin Sina of the BJP joins us.
43:19Abbas Haidar, spokesperson of the Samajwadi Party joins us.
43:22Also with us is Dr. Vikram Singh, former DGP of Uttar Pradesh.
43:25Abbas Haidar, ten premises are being searched.
43:29It's all a part of a Prevention of Money Laundering Act case.
43:33Why is it that the allegation is that this is targeting Aazam Khan before elections?
43:42Well, Mr. Sawant, the Bharti Janata Party is totally rattled with the upcoming election in Uttar Pradesh in 2027.
43:50They know that Samajwadi Party is coming to power.
43:54And so the Samajwadi Party is going to take all the fake cases which have been put against Mr. Aazam
44:00Khan.
44:01So suddenly the central agency, the ED has been, you know, intensified.
44:05The ED inquiry has been intensified against Mr. Aarum Khan.
44:08This is very unfortunate.
44:09If we look at the sequence, first they tried to, you know, they attempt to demolish 38 out of 40
44:15buildings of the Maulana Muhammad Ali Johar University in Rampur.
44:18And when the university administration approached the court and they gave a stay order on that, they are just trying
44:25to, you know, intensify the ED inquiry.
44:27ED, a central agency, we all know, which has lost its credibility across the country till 2035.
44:34More than 8,800 cases have been filed by ED.
44:37Out of them, only 60 cases have been completed, which is like around 0.6.
44:41Two points you've raised. Let me get Tuhin Sinha to respond to both.
44:44Tuhin Sinha respond to the Samajwadi Party saying these are fake cases.
44:50He's being targeted just before 2027 elections.
44:54Well, good evening, Gaurav. Good evening, everybody.
44:56You know, Aazam Khan and Artik Ahmed have been poster boys of Samajwadi Party,
45:00but we are under no attendant burden to give them a long rope.
45:05What are the charges against Aazam Khan?
45:06106 crore rupees embezzled out of public funds for a private university by misusing his position as the PWD minister
45:16and as the jail board chairperson.
45:19I think these are grave charges.
45:20Number two, 38 out of 40 buildings constructed in the campus are done without any approval of plans,
45:28which is something which Rampur Development Authority has been repeatedly alleging.
45:33So I think these are very grave charges.
45:35We are under no attendant burden to give them a long rope just because they may be your poster boys.
45:40But my simple question to Samajwadi Party is that if these, you know, are unfounded charges or if there is
45:48no substance in these charges,
45:49then you might as well, you know, play the sympathy card and announce Aazam Khan as the next CM candidate
45:55of Samajwadi Party for the next year's elections.
45:57Would you do that?
45:59Well, let me tell you, first of all,
46:01you want to quickly respond because apparently he's already being announced.
46:04Abbas, isn't he?
46:05Isn't he likely to be the Home Minister of Uttar Pradesh?
46:09Aazam Khan is Home Minister of Uttar Pradesh.
46:11Shifpal Singh Yadav said words to that effect.
46:13Should the Samajwadi Party come to power?
46:16Well, let me tell you, first of all, what Mr. Tuhin Sina has said,
46:20that those buildings were constructed when that area was not under the jurisdiction of the Rampur Development Authority.
46:27Mr. Aazam Khan has been the Urban Development Minister of Uttar Pradesh.
46:30If it would have been under his jurisdiction, why would he have not,
46:34he would have not got a, you know, permission from the so-called authorities.
46:38So that is a totally fake case against him.
46:40We have seen, you know, the Bharati Janata Party is, you know,
46:43they are champions in cooking up cases against opposition leader.
46:46They try to use agencies, you know, they try to harass opposition leaders.
46:50This is what all these two…
46:51Go to my simple question.
46:53No, no.
46:54I'm…
46:55See…
46:56No, this is not my…
46:58This is not my…
46:59Okay.
47:00Sir, let me…
47:01How can you justify that?
47:02See, when you are not able to provide quality education…
47:05Okay, if there is embezzlement of funds, it has to be proven in a court of law.
47:08Let me quickly bring in Vikram Singh.
47:10Hold on.
47:11Gentlemen.
47:11Gentlemen, one by one.
47:13Dr. Vikram Singh, you've been DGP of Uttar Pradesh.
47:16Now, there were allegations that land was usurped.
47:21Poor farmers were coerced.
47:22First, there were cases that were filed.
47:25Is Azam Khan, and since you study this subject very closely, is he being victimized?
47:30One, because he's Muslim.
47:32Two, because he's a powerful Muslim leader.
47:34Three, because he could be the Home Minister of Uttar Pradesh if the Samajwadi Party is elected to power.
47:42Good evening, Gaurav Ji and gentlemen.
47:44Azam Khan is not an ordinary motto.
47:46He was reported to be the deputy chief minister at one point of time and in ways more than the
47:51chief minister.
47:52And today, even if he's not…
47:53If all the cases are on him, somebody say that he's likely to be the next Home Minister of Uttar
47:58Pradesh, well, you can see the stature.
48:00And unless one has suicidal tendencies, one would not trump up cases against somebody of the stature of Mr. Azam
48:07Khan.
48:07Therefore, I would say, ED1 has done its homework.
48:10Ten raids at four different locations, including Chartered Accountant, Deepak Gupta, as also, as you rightly mentioned, Rampur, Saharanpur, Lucknow
48:19and Delhi.
48:20Obviously, ED has done its homework, and without convincing and very credible evidence, these raids would not have happened.
48:27Now that they have happened, and to Mr. Abbas, I would say, I would rather say that please check up.
48:33ED has a very wonderful track record of convictions, and it is reported to be giving 93 percent convictions in
48:41all the cases that are in the court.
48:43Therefore, let us not go in the investigated cases, but those that have been charge-sheeted, the success rate is
48:4893.
48:49Okay.
48:50Yeah, because only out of 60 cases, you are absolutely correct, sir.
48:55Out of 60 cases, in 56 cases, the person has been acquitted.
49:02Sorry, in four cases, the person has been acquitted, and 56 cases, you know, have been finalized.
49:08The court has given sentence to the, you know, to the guilty.
49:10So, but only 60 cases out of 8,800 cases have been finalized in 21 years of the formation of
49:17ED.
49:17So, that is a track record.
49:19I would not say it's a good track record.
49:21That is 0.68 percent, sir.
49:22One thing, and second thing, sir, it is very unfortunate that the Bharati Janata Party government is trying to target
49:28an educational institution.
49:30It is not just about Mr. Azam Khan.
49:32It is about thousands of students and their family members who are being, you know, who are becoming, you know,
49:38scapegoat.
49:38Those people, they are going to suffer by these policies of the Bharati Janata Party, this politics of vendetta.
49:45Very pertinent point, very pertinent point you've raised.
49:47Tuhin Sina, respond to that.
49:50Tuhin Sina, okay.
49:51Very pertinent point you've raised.
49:53Tuhin Sina, respond.
49:54You want to proceed against Azam Khan, proceed against Azam Khan, proceed against the trust.
49:58But why demolish an educational institution is the point that is being raised.
50:03Why shouldn't the UP government take over and continue to give, provide education?
50:07We would ensure that none of the students, you know, involved suffer.
50:11So, you know, there will be a rehabilitation, you know, probably they will be shifted to another college.
50:16That, to my understanding, that is the plan going ahead.
50:19But, you know, I mean, these people have been masters of loot.
50:22If we come to the other icon, Atik Ahmed, 500 crores of property since 2021 alone have been, have been
50:30taken over by ED.
50:31And, in fact, you know, more than 170 families have been provided Pradhan Mantri Avas Yoshna flats in those land.
50:38Because that is how big the loot during the Samajwadi party era was.
50:42And again, I repeat, you know, the charge is very grave.
50:45As a minister in the cabinet, if you, if you embezzle funds out for a private university, that's a sin,
50:53that's a crime, and somewhere that needs to be accounted for.
50:56Yes, I mean, the option that you gave could have been considered.
50:58But I am, like, I am, you know, Yogi Paraj ji is very particular about, about the careers of students.
51:04And I am sure absolute care will be taken to ensure that none of the careers suffer because of, because
51:09of the shutting down.
51:10So, let me get Abbas Haider, let me get Abbas Haider to respond to some of the points that have
51:15been raised.
51:17Abbas, no, no, hear me, hear me out, hear me out.
51:20So, look, books stolen from another library, and these are books that are not available anywhere else.
51:26Thousands of books stolen and kept in this library.
51:30Should a minister be doing it? Should a university be doing it?
51:33What kind of education would a university provide if it is stealing books, if it is usurping land, if it
51:40is illegally encroaching on land?
51:42Sir, are these aspects that need to be looked into or not?
51:45Should they be investigated or not? Or should you just say, oh, because it is, you know, you are targeting
51:50a minority institution, it's a minority institution, don't even look there.
51:55Minority also has to live under the same law of the land, sir.
51:59Well, what is the Bharati Janata Party doing since the past 10 years? They have been investigating these cases.
52:04There is a case of stealing Saikil, which has been put against Mr. Adam Khan, Saikil Chori, Bhaesh Chori.
52:09No, no, no, Saikil, books. These are the cases, a person who served as cabinet minister, a person who served
52:14for more than four and a half decade as an MP, MLA, you know, multiple time member of parliament, Lok
52:19Sabha, Rad Sabha, his wife have been a professor in a university, a member of parliament.
52:24You can, can you expect, you know, he will steal a bicycle? This is the level of political vendita of
52:29the Bharati Janata.
52:30What about stealing of dogs?
52:31Second thing is, Tuhin Khan wants to respond.
52:33Lastly, Hathir Kaimad was part of the, you know, a party which Bharati Janata Party is sitting in center as
52:40well as the state.
52:45Well, Gaurav, you know, I don't think…
52:47Tuhin Sinha wants to respond, but you haven't answered my question about usurping land, stealing land of poor farmers. Those
52:55are court cases. Okay, Tuhin Sinha wants to respond.
52:58So, Mr. Haidar has tried to trivialize the case. I don't think there is any charge of stealing a bicycle.
53:03The charge is of stealing some ancient relics, some ancient books, which are not available in different places.
53:09But anyway, that should not take away from the moot point, 106 crores being taken away. But Gaurav, the larger
53:15point is that anybody who has seen that era of Samajwadi Party government know that Azam Khan was the blue
53:22-eyed guy, was the blue-eyed boy of Akhilesh Yadav.
53:26So, you know…
53:2630 seconds that I have. 30 seconds on the pertinent point of land being usurped. Dr. Vikram Singh, you've been
53:33DGP.
53:34Was land being usurped of poor farmers, poor Muslim farmers of that area, government land, riverbed land, was all of
53:42that usurped or not? And should that not be looked at just because it's a minority institution?
53:48You are very right, Gaurav Ji. I would say that an expeditious and a transparent investigation and done on the
53:54topmost priority should put an end to all the allegations and counter-allegations.
53:58It is too serious a matter to be delegated in the background or to be kept for a later date.
54:03Therefore, Mr. Tohin Sanaa may like to advise the government to have this investigation on the topmost priority and ensure
54:09that dood ka dood and paani ka paani happens.
54:11The truth comes out in the next 15 days. This is perfectly doable, Gaurav Ji.
54:15Oh, absolutely. Put out all facts in public domain and let courts of law decide in a time-bound manner.
54:21This shouldn't be used as political ping-pong.
54:23I want to thank all my guests. I have unfortunately run out of time on this part of India first.
54:27Many thanks for watching.
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