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In this India Today video, anchor Gaurav Sawant brings you the latest developments from Parliament, Pakistan and the India-China border row.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savant.
00:03The government and the opposition are locked in a fierce battle over the FCRA bill.
00:09And this is a crucial piece of legislation.
00:11The government says it's aimed at putting India's interests first in assessing how foreign money that flows into the country
00:19is being used
00:20and if it's being spent for the purpose for which it has come in.
00:25The opposition is calling it draconian.
00:28The opposition says it's anti-minority and the battle lines are very clearly drawn.
00:33The FCRA amendment bill has now been referred to the JPC to a joint parliamentary committee for a detailed scrutiny.
00:41Now, this happened through a voice vote in Lok Sabha with Union Parliamentary Affairs Minister Kiran Rijiju
00:46challenging the opposition to cite a single provision that's against minorities in India as alleged by the opposition.
00:56And there were heated exchanges.
00:58For example, between Samajwadi Party's Akhilesh Yadav and Parliamentary Affairs Minister Kiran Rijiju,
01:03Akhilesh Yadav said, like several other government bills, even the FCRA amendment bill 2026 targets minorities in India.
01:13Kiran Rijiju hit back, insisting that no community was being targeted.
01:17He defended it, saying it's the need of the hour.
01:20India needs tighter rules to regulate foreign funding.
01:24Now, the bill seeks greater oversight, more transparency and stronger compliance around foreign contribution that NGOs, trusts and various associations
01:35receive in the country.
01:36So now, a 31-member JPC, 21 members from Lok Sabha, 10 members from Rajya Sabha, they will deliberate every
01:45aspect.
01:46And this JPC is expected to submit its report by the first week of the winter session.
01:53So what does the FCRA amendment bill actually propose?
01:57And why does the government see tighter regulation for foreign funding as an India first imperative?
02:03And why is the opposition so worried?
02:05Our political bureau gets you our top story tonight from Parliament.
02:15Complete pandemonium.
02:18For the 18th straight day of the monsoon session, Parliament witnessed a near washout.
02:24The opposition continued its sloghnering, even as Home Minister Amit Shah made it clear that he was ready to give
02:31a statement on the floor of the House.
02:55But Rahul Gandhi rejected the Home Minister's offer for a discussion, saying, we don't care.
03:00When I say we, we're not interested in him giving us a lecture or a discussion.
03:05We are interested in one simple thing.
03:08And when I say we, I mean the younger generation of this country.
03:14Who shocked those students?
03:17Did Mr. Amit Shah give this order to shoot our children or did he not?
03:27Amit the sloghnering and protests, several key laws still went through.
03:34But the FCRA amendment bill, the legislation aimed at tightening the rules governing foreign funding, was not among them.
03:41Instead, a motion was moved to refer the bill to a joint parliamentary committee and it was passed through a
03:47voice vote.
03:48The FCRA amendment bill has now been sent to a 31-member joint parliamentary committee for detailed scrutiny.
03:55The panel will have 21 members from the Lok Sabha and 10 from Rarajya Sabha to be nominated by the
04:02Speaker and the Chairman respectively.
04:04The committee will conduct an in-depth examination of the bill and submit its report by the end of the
04:10first week of the winter session.
04:12But even before the bill was sent to the JPC, the Lok Sabha witnessed a heated face-off between Samajwadi
04:19Party Chief Akhilesh Yadav and Parliamentary Affairs Minister Kiran Rijiju.
04:23Thank you very much.
05:11The Congress, meanwhile, continues to insist that the bill should be withdrawn altogether.
05:24So, what exactly is the FCRA amendment bill and why is it so important?
05:34The bill seeks to amend the law-governing foreign contributions in India, changing the rules for overseas donations received by
05:42NGOs, trusts and associations.
05:44It aims to bring greater transparency and oversight to foreign funding while tightening compliance requirements for organizations receiving money from
05:54abroad.
05:56In short, it could significantly reshape how foreign donations are received, regulated and monitored in India.
06:04A crucial bill moved to JPC, but it was drawn out by Parliament's political noise.
06:11Bureau Report, India Today.
06:18There is opposition not just within the country, but also overseas, and this should have multiple red flags going up.
06:25A US lawmaker, for example, called it against Christians.
06:29He warned India that the FCRA bill, if cleared, will impact India-US ties.
06:34Trump camp ally, Republican congressman, Riley Moore, he launched a sharp attack on the proposed FCRA amendment bill, claiming it
06:42targets Christian groups, curbs religious freedom, discriminates against Christians, restricts foreign funding and poses a threat to civil society.
06:52Moore warned that the legislation could strain India-US ties.
06:56But the government put facts first and put facts on record.
07:01Now, responding to this criticism, India's ambassador to the United States, Ambassador Vinay Mohan Kwartra, he dismissed these claims and
07:09issued a point-by-point fact check.
07:12Vinay Mohan Kwartra said, India is not alone in regulating foreign funding.
07:18He went on to say, countries like the United States, US, for example, as Farah, Australia, UK, Canada, they all
07:26have similar legal framework for foreign funding regulation.
07:29He rejected allegations that the law targets any religion.
07:34He stressed that rules apply uniformly as they must to all organizations, regardless of faith or ideology.
07:44On concerns over assets of NGOs, Ambassador Kwartra said, the bill merely creates a safeguard mechanism, and then it allows
07:53assets to be returned if an organization's registration is restored.
07:58So their assets are not taken away from them.
08:01Once they meet the compliance regulations, then the assets are returned.
08:06He also pushed back against claims that foreign funding is being choked in India.
08:10Again, facts were put out in public domain.
08:12Foreign contribution to registered organizations in India have actually risen to $2.67 billion in the year 2024-2025.
08:22The Indian envoy's message was very clear.
08:26The FCRA Amendment Bill 2026 is about transparency.
08:30It's about oversight.
08:32It's about accountability.
08:33And it's not about restricting legitimate charitable work.
08:37And it does not target any community in particular.
08:42And then this raises another aspect.
08:45Why are foreigners so worried about India's FCRA Amendment Bill?
08:50I mean, are there other games at play here?
08:52Is there merit in the opposition here insisting that it's against minorities?
08:57Of course, the JPC will now look into all these aspects of the FCRA and submit its report to the
09:02Lok Sabha by the last day of the first week of the winter session of Parliament.
09:07But there's another question.
09:10Is the JPC a setback for the Narendra Modi government?
09:13Or is there merit that this is one step backward?
09:17Because you then discuss all aspects and then are giantly povered.
09:21Joining me on this first India First debate on the show today is Satendra Singh, former Deputy Director at the
09:28ED, at the Directorate of Enforcement.
09:30Dr. Anshul Avijit is National Spokesperson of the Congress Party.
09:33Toohin Sin is the National Spokesperson of the BJP.
09:36Also with me is Siddharth Zarabi, Group Managing Editor of Business Today TV.
09:40I want to begin by asking Dr. Avijit.
09:43Union Parliamentary Affairs Minister, Anshul.
09:47Kiran Rijiju has dared the opposition to cite a single provision that is against any minorities or discriminates against any
09:55religion.
09:56He accuses the opposition of telling a lie on the FCRA amendment bill.
10:01BJP says the opposition is fear-mongering without facts, sir.
10:07No, let me make a broad point about the bills being brought by this government over a period of time.
10:14It is our belief, as so much is the trust deficit between the opposition and the government, that Gaurav,
10:20it is our belief that almost every single bill that is brought by this government seeks to increase the executive
10:28overreach of this government.
10:30They want complete tyrannical control over covenants.
10:33Even the bill that was not passed in this parliament about the Siksha Adhishtan bill, the Viksit Bharat Siksha Adhishtan
10:42bill,
10:42seeks to regulate all three bodies of UGC, higher education, technical education into one body.
10:49So it is implicit, it is also explicit in their manoeuvres about every single bill.
10:56No just bill wants to be passed by them.
10:59And the women's reservation bill left pending for so long, they want to smuggle it under the garb of the
11:04delimitation bill.
11:05Why don't they simply bring it on?
11:07Every motive of this government over a period of time, Gaurav, has been questioned.
11:13This is no different.
11:14This is a classic case in point, and that's why you bring it out.
11:17And you enlisted a couple of points about this bill.
11:20Let me bring that out.
11:21Let me tell you that the bill was brought by the government, Congress government.
11:25We wanted to regulate foreign donations coming in.
11:29It was no other.
11:30I reported it even there.
11:30But what it has subsequently done, what this government has subsequently done by the mechanisms I told you,
11:38is use it as an instrument, as a tool to suppress civil society space in India by repeated amendments to
11:46the bill.
11:46Right?
11:47It's no longer about foreign donations.
11:49It's about, you know, the bodies who deceive foreign donations and how to control them.
11:53Let me give you a number of examples over this.
11:56The government is not concerned about the Mecca agreement which is going on, right, or what its response to it.
12:02Or it's not concerned about skyrocketing employment or investment or plummeting rupee.
12:07It is more concerned about our executive power.
12:09And I'll just list you here.
12:11The most important here is the secession concept in the bill, which allows the government to take control over all
12:17assets of the bill,
12:18and, you know, regardless, in retrospect effect.
12:21You know, this is completely unheard of.
12:24There are no arbitrary judicial mechanisms without the approval of the central government,
12:29which these organizations can turn to.
12:31The investigation can only take place…
12:34Two very pertinent points you've raised in your initial comments, and I, you know, didn't interrupt you.
12:39Tuhin Sinha, respond to the Congress accusing the BJP of double standards.
12:44They're saying you're trying to throttle minority organizations or any organizations.
12:49You want to control them.
12:51And the aspect that was raised by KC Vinukopal, RSS receives donations, he says, from across the world.
12:57But there is no sort of democracy of FCRA hanging over them, sir.
13:04Well, good evening, Gaurav.
13:06Good evening, everybody.
13:07You know, the Congress Party is in a time warp.
13:09So, when my friend Anshul Abhijit says that we brought the FCRA, he also needs to realize that 2026 is
13:17not 1976.
13:19The nature of challenges are very different.
13:21And it makes sense for us to enhance the accountability, the transparency of the working of these NGOs, which are
13:29funded from abroad, which, in turn, enhance the country's sovereignty.
13:33I would expect them not to behave like fanboys of Riley Moore right here and spread all kinds of canards
13:41and propaganda.
13:42You know, I'm just going to highlight two key components of the bill and, you know, let my friend decide
13:48what is wrong with them.
13:49You know, when it comes to setting up of a regulatory authority to deal with foreign-funded assets, which have
13:57ceased to, you know, which have ceased to exist, which are past the registration, what is wrong with it?
14:03You know, in fact, you know, if they regain the registration, it provides for a mechanism for these institutions to
14:12also be restored.
14:13Number two, when you talk about, you know, the purpose of funding, the purpose of spending by these organizations, I
14:21think proselytization and predatory proselytization especially is a threat looming over large parts of India, especially tribal areas.
14:29We've done lots of, we've come across lots of stories. I come from Jharkhand. I am privy to a lot
14:34of details which Anshul may not be.
14:36Or maybe he may be aware of, but being a congressman, he would live in denial. These are genuine dangers.
14:42I would wait for the day when a congressman has the courage, has the moral integrity to stand up and
14:48ask,
14:49why is the present FCRA, proposed FCRA amendment not as strict, not as stringent as the FARA Act in USA?
14:58I think that is, that would spell out the intent of this opposition, but unfortunately, they seem to be only
15:04expanding and amplifying the propaganda of Riley Moore.
15:08Okay. And let me bring in Siddharth Zarabi on this aspect. Siddharth, when the government, and how is the government
15:15reading interference of foreign lawmakers,
15:18U.S. lawmakers joining issues, creating this surround sound saying it's anti-Christian, it discriminates against the church or words
15:25to that effect,
15:25and going ahead, it may impact India-U.S. ties?
15:29Well, you know, this is not the first time when U.S. politicians have commented on internal domestic matters.
15:36I recall the 2010 amendment bill also had created some noise, but the point that was made by both our
15:44speakers and the point you really asked,
15:46if you read through the U.S. framework, the legal framework, that framework is very, very stringent.
15:53In fact, aggregates, foreign source spending of just $10,000 and more requires very, very tough disclosures, just $10,000.
16:06And if you read through the U.S. framework and compare it with the proposed Indian framework,
16:13it is very, very clear that control, supervision, adequate disclosure and being able to determine the money that has been
16:22spent in the past,
16:24where was it actually spent?
16:26And I just want to quickly respond to that earlier comment about the so-called retrospective application and exit.
16:35Why is this necessary?
16:38Gaurav, imagine if money is received today and is spent over a period of time,
16:44and there is no real-time monitoring mechanism that is being proposed,
16:48and a year later, two years later, three years later, you realize that that money has ended up being used
16:55for nefarious purposes,
16:57and a certain activity or asset has been created.
17:01What would you do?
17:02Would you let it survive when Indian citizens can see their assets being forfeited under a prevention of money laundering
17:12framework?
17:13Why should foreign funding be kept on a different pedestal and at a higher pedestal?
17:17Are Indian lives and Indian assets at a lower grade than foreign assets?
17:23This is complete bunkum, sorry to use that word.
17:25It does not understand law, framework and equity and transparency in dealing.
17:31You can argue about the so-called stringency, but do not mix up basic facts, Gaurav.
17:38Fair enough.
17:39Let me also bring in Satendra Singh on the implementation and the use.
17:43Is this draconian, as the opposition alleges?
17:46Mr. Satendra Singh, is the FCRA amendment bill, as draconian, you know, as the opposition says,
17:53does it discriminate against Christians or any other minority for that matter in our country, sir?
19:59You know, minority institutions are being misled.
20:03Dr. Anshul Avijit, let me, you know, take you back in time when the Congress was in power.
20:09If I remember the year correctly, it was 2011-12.
20:13We had covered the anti-nuclear protests in Kudankulan nuclear power plant in Tamil Nadu.
20:19The then home minister, Pi Chhidambaram, he spoke of alleged diversion of foreign funds
20:26by certain NGOs.
20:28FCRA action was initiated.
20:30So if funds were diverted then for what was then seen as anti-India activity and action
20:37was initiated, if I remember correctly, certain licenses were suspended, certain licenses were
20:42not renewed.
20:43Why not debate all these aspects now in the JPC?
20:47Should the Congress also not be a part of it?
20:50Whatever objection you have, raise it in the JPC.
20:52Let it be debated in Parliament.
20:54Gaurav, who's denying?
20:56I told you right in the beginning that we were the guys who first of all brought in the FCRA
21:01Act and later amended it as well in 2010.
21:05There's no denying it.
21:06There is a difference.
21:07There's a qualitative difference between a regulatory act which seeks to regulate foreign donations
21:14coming in and one that seeks to persecute, one that seeks to suppress civil society space.
21:21I'll give you one other example here, Gaurav.
21:24In 2011-12, the number of organizations registered under FCRA in was a sex of 50,000.
21:33They have now plummeted now to 15,000.
21:37Right?
21:37You can say, oh, very, very, very good.
21:39They haven't been complying.
21:40They've probably, the renewals have expired or whatever.
21:44But the other thing is, it's not been a neutral contraction.
21:47You know, many of those organizations that ideologically, and this is the implicit point,
21:52you know, Mr. Rijiju says,
21:53This is rather implicit in the bill.
21:58Those people who are ideologically akin to this government have benefited disproportionately
22:04and that is always a danger with anything the government brails.
22:07And retrospective, I mean, come on, retrospectively, you can't criminalize people.
22:12If you bring in a law, criminal law, retrospectively, you can't repunish, go back and repunish.
22:18Even in civil society, in civil cases, retrospective acts are frowned upon deeply.
22:24It's not the norm.
22:26It's always critiqued.
22:27Yeah, it's always critiqued.
22:29So, two aspects you've raised.
22:30Two aspects you've raised.
22:32One, two hints and I want you to respond.
22:34And on the retrospective action, Siddharth, you wanted to come in.
22:38Yeah, I'll just come in quickly.
22:40You know, on a different note, a retrospective act in law was introduced by the Congress government.
22:47But I'm not playing sides here.
22:49I'm just stating a fact.
22:51Exactly my point.
22:52No, no, no, let me just finish, sir.
22:53I did not interrupt you.
22:56And it had a certain impact on foreign investors.
22:59In fact, foreign investors got hit.
23:01On the other element, just one food for thought.
23:04To not read the bill properly and it is our job to do it.
23:08In fact, the maximum penalty, Gaurav, I wonder if how much this is known.
23:12Under this act is proposed to be reduced from five years to one year.
23:18So, I think we should be very balanced in our assessment.
23:22The need for dialogue and explaining the asset seizure is understood.
23:28But every law in India where there is any asset materially created or otherwise, which is illegal, is forfeited.
23:40That is the law and it applies to 1.4 billion Indians.
23:43Why should it be different for any foreigner?
23:46Okay.
23:47Okay.
23:48Do you want to quickly respond to that, Anshul?
23:51Before I bring in to him to respond on the second aspect.
23:55You brought in the Congress in this.
23:56We've discussed the Congress.
23:57It was the Congress that initiated a particular regulatory law, which is now being used for executive outreach.
24:04That is a broader point of all the laws here.
24:06It is definitely going after minorities.
24:08There is no retrospectivity.
24:10It is a misreading of the provisions.
24:12It is not retrospectivity.
24:14If a crime is proven, sir, at the end of it, an asset that is created out of illegality can
24:21revert.
24:22There is another clause.
24:23I'm sorry to interrupt you.
24:25Please read the bill.
24:26The clause says an NGO that has taken a FCRA cannot exit.
24:31The reason that clause has been built in is because if you do something and shoot and scoot, you will
24:38be held accountable.
24:39You cannot disappear.
24:41Mr. Zorabi, please calm down.
24:42I've heard you.
24:43Calm down.
24:43Okay, Dr. Vijay.
24:44Take it easy.
24:45Listen, I'm just telling you that a number of features of this law, particularly the fact that there is no
24:51statutory mechanism by which you can appeal these cases.
24:55And they've all been under the investigative mechanism of the central authority who will decide when it's going to take
25:02place.
25:02This was under farm law.
25:04I'll get to him, sir.
25:05Look, hang on a minute.
25:06A number of things.
25:07You know, if I start pointing out, we'll have a wrong discussion on FCRA.
25:10Gaurav, now it is proposed that a central government permission to first be taken to initiate action that is in
25:18favor of the pleader.
25:19Gaurav, you can argue that there is no clause that allows for appeal.
25:24That's a separate matter.
25:25I'm going to say.
25:25Why is it separate?
25:26Read the one here.
25:27That is very critical.
25:28That is very critical.
25:28Mechanisms for appeal.
25:29It's all arbitrary.
25:30To him, Sina, respond.
25:31It's all arbitrary and that is going to be decided by the central government.
25:34Gaurav, Gaurav.
25:35This is what we're talking about.
25:36The whole argument.
25:37The whole argument.
25:38Yes, okay.
25:40The whole argument of Anshul today.
25:42Yeah, sure.
25:43The whole argument.
25:45The whole argument.
25:46The whole argument of Anshul today.
25:48That when we were in power, we only brought this.
25:52We only brought that.
25:53Only confirms that Congress, when out of power, has different yardsticks for national security.
25:58They are the biggest hypocrites when out of power.
26:00You know, you read the bill again.
26:02And I think with all responsibility, at least, Anshul Avijit today should condemn really more statements specifying and categorically saying
26:13that the bill paves the way for religious takeover of minority institutions.
26:17I think if Congress, you know, if Congress is honest to Indian interests on your show today, he should condemn
26:23and he should criticize that particular statement about the other issues.
26:27If you have certain reservations, that is the reason why we are going in for JPC.
26:32Going in for JPC is not a big piece of the government.
26:34We had gone on for a JPC on the Vokkv Amendment Act also.
26:37And yet, when the Vokkv...
26:39Forget the opposition for a moment.
26:41Your own allies, chief ministers of Christian majority states, for example, are extremely worried.
26:47Nagaland chief minister, Mizoram chief minister, Meghalai chief minister.
26:50They have all raised multiple concerns over FCRA amendment.
26:53If the bill is truly religion neutral, as the BJP insists it is, why are even your own allies and
27:00your own partner governments so worried?
27:03You know, Gaurav, my simple question to you, is proselytization an issue in the country or not?
27:09Is demography distortion silently taking place, funded by unknown sources or not?
27:14So, if there are concerns which some of our allies have, they will be addressed.
27:19We are talking to them.
27:20But, you know, this opposition should not be allowed to mislead the country on a very important issue.
27:27And I think that is my moot point.
27:29On your show today, Anshul Abhijit should condemn the statement by Reli Moore.
27:34And he should tell the country that there is nothing of that sort in the bill.
27:37There is no provision for religious takeover of minority institutions.
27:41It is agnostic.
27:42Since you've raised a direct point, before I bring in Mr. Satyendra Singh, it's only and only, you know, circumvents.
27:48Yeah, Anshul, you want to respond to Toohin?
27:50Yeah.
27:51No, no, no, I'm not in proxy for anyone.
27:53I'm a spokesperson for the Congress party.
27:55You brought in some foreign voices and you asked me to comment.
27:58It's absolutely ridiculous.
27:59Why should I care?
28:00We have our own concerns about this bill.
28:02We didn't bring in.
28:03Hang on a minute.
28:04We brought in foreign voices.
28:05Toohin, let me just wait.
28:06We are not, why should I comment on someone?
28:08I don't even heard what he said or what he didn't say or anyone, sir.
28:11I am here as a spokesperson, Gaurav.
28:14I've been invited on the show to address the opposition's concerns, to spell them out, the Congress's concerns.
28:21It doesn't matter what anyone has said.
28:23I don't even know what he said.
28:24A U.S. lawmaker interfering in India's internal affairs or commenting on India's laws.
28:29You know, fair enough, the government or the ambassador has responded.
28:33But Satyendra Singh Ji, P. Chidambra, when he was in 2011, when he was in 2011, he was saying that
28:40he had protested from Kudan Kulan.
28:42He was, is the state of the U.S. lawmaker could also.
29:33Thank you very much.
29:49Thank you very much.
30:37Thank you very much.
35:23Economic Consumer military officials at GHQ
35:25which is General Headquarters, Pakistan Army's Headquarters in Rawalpindi
35:29Believe that Imran Khan may no longer be alive.
35:33But he said these are rumours that are doing the rounds.
35:37He hasn't been able to independently verify this.
35:41PTI supporters are now demanding proof of life.
35:44They want the family and the family doctor to have access to Imran Khan.
35:49They've raised concerns over Imran Khan being kept in solitary
35:52confinement and lack of any direct contact with either his family or his legal team for months
36:00in fact his sisters they've been camping outside the adhiara jail for the past two days ever since
36:06this rumor mill started working overtime they haven't been permitted to meet him so now there
36:12is this deadline that's been given 10 p.m thursday either they get to meet imran khan or there will
36:18be consequences but listen in to claims being made by some that imran khan may be no more of
36:24course saying this may well be a rumor incidentally there was a rumor of this nature even last year
36:29listen in
36:42that imran khan is no longer with us and that is the reason why
36:48the pakistan army and the army chief
36:56are keeping him from the rest of the country this is serious if it's true it's not i hope it's
37:06not
37:06what a medical can come back to the doctor
37:10and the family member
37:13remote
37:13him
37:14article
37:18after只
37:42I got a heart attack and Few
37:58Now what also lends weight to these rumors, Aasim Munir, Pakistan's old powerful chief of
38:04defense staff cannot stand Imran Khan. In fact, they're considered sworn enemies in Pakistan.
38:11They say two swords cannot remain in one scabbert, in one sheep.
38:18So both Aasim Munir and Imran Khan cannot coexist in Pakistan. If there's one man in Pakistan
38:25who hates Imran Khan the most, it is Pakistan's chief of defense staff, Aasim Munir.
38:31The feud between Imran Khan and Aasim Munir actually goes back to 2019, when Imran Khan
38:36removed Aasim Munir as DGISI, the counter-intelligence chief, just after eight months in harness.
38:44Aasim Munir reportedly showed interest in investigating alleged corruption cases of Imran Khan's wife,
38:52Bushra Begum, and her close circle. And that is when Imran Khan wanted Aasim Munir to be sacked.
39:00Years later, this personal rivalry became a much bigger political debate. Imran Khan did not want Aasim
39:07Munir to become the chief of Pakistan Army. Imran Khan, in fact, was removed as Pakistan's Prime Minister in 2022,
39:14after losing a trust vote, which many argue was orchestrated by Aasim Munir with America's blessings.
39:23He was arrested in August 2023 after being convicted in multiple cases of corruption and has remained
39:31behind bars since then. Last year, in May, Imran Khan wrote an op-ed for a British newspaper,
39:37The Telegraph, accusing Pakistan's military establishment and its army chief Aasim Munir of
39:43trying every trick in the trade, every tactic to decimate his party's presence in Pakistan's political
39:51landscape. Imran Khan then went on to announce that if anything were to happen to him, Aasim Munir
39:57should be held responsible. And then there is also a deeper regional dimension to this fight.
40:03Imran Khan has very strong roots in Pakistan's Pashtun population and retains particular strong support in
40:11Pakistan's Khaybar-Pakhtun Kha province. In fact, Imran Khan was considered so close to the Taliban at one
40:17point of time that he was called Taliban Khan. PTI has remained a dominant political force in this
40:23province. Aasim Munir, meanwhile, represents an institution that has historically been dominated by the
40:29Pakistani-Punjabi-Muslim power structure predominantly in Pakistan's Punjab province. And this also makes
40:35the confrontation more than just a clash between two strong people. It feeds into that existing
40:41political and regional fault line between the Pashtuns and the Punjabis. But let me now throw it
40:48open for a wider discussion. I want to bring into this conversation my colleague Sandeep Unnithan.
40:52I also want to bring into this conversation left-in-channel ESL Narsaman. General Narsaman is former
40:57member of the National Security Advisory Board and former defence attache to China. Gentlemen,
41:03welcome. General Narsaman, just a rumour or is all not well in Pakistan on more than one front in your
41:11reading, sir? This issue of Imran Khan has been going, doing the rounds for a very long time now.
41:20And the enmity between Imran Khan and Field Marshal Asim Munir has been actually explained by you very
41:28well. In addition to that, you know the internal situation in Pakistan is not a very good situation
41:34to look at. There are issues with Balchistan, Afghanistan, Kaivar Pakhtunkwa, Pakistan-occupied
41:41Kashmir. All the places are going to be affected. All the places are actually getting affected at this
41:47point in time. So, putting all this together and also the demand to meet Mr. Imran Khan and his health
41:56is not new. It has been going on for some time now. It has only peaked at this point in
42:01time when there
42:01have been rumours and the journalists have been saying that it is no more. And that is why this
42:09added impetus to this issue has come up. Whatever it is, this is going to create some kind of an
42:15internal
42:15situation in Pakistan, particularly in the political scenario. So, if his party people,
42:22whom also was addressing just before we came online, also is actually demanding, is meeting him
42:29and thereafter people of Pakistan are going to come to the streets is what he is saying. So, all these
42:34things put together, I don't think it is arguing very well for Pakistan. The coming few days are going to
42:40be
42:40very tense. And unless if Mr. Imran Khan is not shown to the public or his relatives are not being
42:49allowed
42:50to meet, it is going to create major problems within Pakistan is what I feel.
42:54So, there is already trouble in Balochistan. Will this lead to Khaybar Pakhtoonghua going up in flames?
43:00It already is in flames. But Sandeep, you know, maybe a few degrees higher given the fact that Imran
43:07Khan and Asim Munir, they cannot co-exist in Pakistan. And yet, Asim Munir needs Imran Khan right now if
43:14he
43:14wants to elevate himself as the Sadr-e-Ryasat or President of Pakistan. And is that why this rumour at
43:22this
43:22point of time becomes all the more crucial, Sandeep?
43:25Well, absolutely, Gaurav. You know, the fact is that Imran Khan remains the most popular leader
43:30in Pakistan. Whether civil or military, his popularity is intact. It's, in fact, even grown.
43:37He's been in prison for more than three years. And, you know, Pakistan has a history of political
43:42assassinations, Gaurav, some of which have not been solved till date. Liyaka Tali Khan,
43:47one of their first prime ministers, was assassinated General Ziaul Haq. We still don't know who killed him.
43:51There have been so many. Benazir Bhutto has been assassinated in 2007. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was,
44:00you know, judicially executed, as they called him, by General Zia. So, there is a history of
44:05blood and violence. It's almost like a Mughal court, Pakistan's political intrigue. So, that is where
44:11a lot of the fears are coming from. And Bajahat is, of course, very close to Imran Khan. And I
44:16have
44:16spoken to him about why Aasim Munir fears Imran Khan. And Bajahat had something very interesting to
44:21say. He said, Imran Khan is the only leader in Pakistan today who is a Pashtun, but he is also
44:27from Punjab. So, he straddles the Indus divide in Pakistan. So, he's not only popular in Khyber
44:33Pakhtunkhwa, but he's equally popular in Punjab. Now, he's a creation of the Pakistan army, Gaurav.
44:38We all know that. The Pakistan army supported him. But when he turned against the Pakistan army,
44:43that is when the entire military GHQ, Rawalpindi went after him the way they have in the last couple
44:49of months. And he's not been seen for the last five months, Gaurav. Since March, that eye operation of
44:54his, which is why there are all these fears about his, you know, well-being and his health. He could
44:59well be alive, but, you know, kept in such a way that he is… No, he doesn't present any threat
45:05to
45:05Aasim Munir. Because very quickly, Gaurav, Aasim Munir has not executed Imran Khan because
45:11he doesn't know whether Imran Khan is a bigger threat to him alive or dead.
45:18Oh, absolutely. But is Aasim Munir now riding a tiger? And as long as he can ride the tiger,
45:24General Narsim Munir, he survives or ultimately he'll end up in the tiger's belly. Look at the
45:29fire on multiple fronts in Pakistan from POJK to Balochistan to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. And now,
45:37it's not just trouble on the Durand line. There's already tension on the Radcliffe line along the
45:42LC between India and Pakistan. Would he actually try to carry out a terror attack in India to unite his
45:49country and live to fight another day like Pahlkam? See, as far as terror attacks are
45:55concerned, nobody can rule anything out at any point in time it can happen. So, we need to be
46:00keeping our guards up all the time. Okay, that is the first point that we need to keep in mind.
46:04The second point is, as a part of diversion of the public to away from the internal disputes,
46:12internal issues that they have, there have been instances where they have been actually doing this
46:17kind of terror activities to divert the attention of the people. So, that is possible. So, what we
46:22need to do is to be very, very careful on the LC and ensure that our guard is always up.
46:28That is one
46:29point. The second point is, within Pakistan, you saw what happened in POJK. So, the thing was that
46:37the people came up on the streets, the election that was conducted was not very well accepted by them.
46:43So, you find internal issues actually troubling Pakistan a lot more. So, while, and in addition to
46:50that, you also please understand Pakistan's role in West Asia. Now, they have gone into the Mecca
46:55agreement, they have problems, they have issues with Iran, and everywhere else. I mean, multiple
47:02friends, Asim Munir is actually being engaged at this point in time. So, anything can happen at this
47:09point in time, we need to keep our guard up. And the internal situation in Pakistan, we need to very
47:14closely monitor how that is going to develop. Because you need to understand in POJK, if something
47:19happens, there may be an influx of refugees that you need to handle. So, there are many issues like
47:25this that you need to be careful about and be prepared to handle.
47:28So, that's a very interesting point to make there, sir. And one more trouble added for Asim Munir,
47:34especially after the way Mohsen Nakwee, Pakistan's interior minister, was sent back by Iran with no
47:41promises made on the state of Hormuz as J.D. Vance, US Vice President wanted. But that's the story we
47:46track very closely. Stay with me, gentlemen. There's a big statement that's coming in from the Ministry of
47:50External Affairs on reports of fresh border tensions between India and China in Arunachal Pradesh.
47:59The Ministry of External Affairs has said that it considers matters relating to the border areas
48:03with China to be of the highest seriousness. India has stressed maintaining peace and tranquility
48:11along the line of actual control is of utmost importance. India has rejected Beijing's criticism
48:17of its decision to formally identify 27 places and geographical features in Arunachal Pradesh by their
48:25standard Indian names. India has reiterated Arunachal Pradesh is an inalienable part, integral part of
48:32India and nothing can change this indisputable reality. So, the 27 names include Longju, Maja, Bisa,
48:42Zola, Riza, Pukurla, Thagla, Shambosarovar, Barakudun, and that list, it just goes on, Jairampur,
48:52Ramnagar, Jaswantagar, Sagar, Padma, Jyotinagar. Now, these are names that India says this is our
48:58territory. The list comprises 21 land area entries, four passes, and one lake and one monument. A crucial
49:05meeting was also held today between India's external affairs minister, Dr. S. Jaishankar,
49:09and India's defence minister, Rajnath Singh, over reports of tension along the line of actual
49:15control in Arunachal Pradesh. Now, Beijing's objections have come amid speculation that there's
49:21a possibility of Chinese President Xi Jinping visiting India in September for the BRICS summit.
49:26And there almost seems to be, General Narsiman, each time there is a state visit, either a visit by
49:34an Indian head of state and government to China or a Chinese visit to India, the borders suddenly
49:39light up. What is that message that Beijing is sending out through, you know, border tensions?
49:47There are three things that you need to keep in mind. One is, of course, in 2013,
49:51in Dipsang, when Lika Chiang came for the first time as a first tour to India, there was a face
49:57-off.
49:58In 2014, when Mr. Xi Jinping had come to India, there was a face-off in Chumur. So these have
50:04been
50:04happening over a period of time. But this time around, the visitors, which is that is expected
50:10of Mr. Xi Jinping to India for the BRICS summit is going to be one month away, approximately.
50:15Okay. So to link this with that particular thing is going to be pretty difficult at this point in
50:22time. But this incursion, this face-off that we are talking about, there are two things. One,
50:31please understand, after the 21st October 24 agreement that we signed, the Western sector has
50:36become stable at this point in time. The middle sector has always been considered to be
50:41a little safer than the other sectors. So the only sector that is left is the Eastern sector,
50:46and we need to be very careful on the Eastern sector. That is important. That is one. Two,
50:50the areas in which these face-offs have taken place, as actually, if the reports are true,
50:56we don't know whether the reports are true. Officially, they have been negated.
50:59But if the reports are true, these are in the areas which have already been disputed and sensitive.
51:04So therefore, these areas need to be kept under constant observation. I am sure the formations on
51:10ground are doing that. As far as naming of these, naming of the places in Arunachal is concerned,
51:16we have done 27. What China is forgetting is in six tranches, they have named 121 places in Arunachal
51:24Pradesh in Chinese. That is Indian territory. So while they can do what they want and they can deny what
51:30they want, but nobody can actually stop us from naming our own areas within our own territory.
51:36So therefore, we need to be very clear, Arunachal is our territory. It will be with us,
51:42it is with us and it will be with us for eternity. That we should be very clear. We will
51:47name,
51:48we will administer the way we deem correct in that particular place.
51:52But you know, when China says it wants to improve relations with India, clearly Sandeep,
52:00it cannot even be taken at face value because each time they say they want to improve relations with
52:05India, either there's a massive disconnect between their leadership and their military leadership,
52:10but with the Xi Jinping heading the CMC and being president and being party general secretary and
52:16being head of chairman of everything in China, that disconnect also doesn't add up.
52:21No, it doesn't, Gaurav. You know, as you mentioned, Xi Jinping is the most powerful Chinese leader
52:26since Mao Zedong. And there's no two opinions about that. And the fact that there cannot be,
52:32you know, a disconnect between, say, the party or the CMC or the PLA. They are all unified.
52:39And all of this, you know, it goes back to 2020, the standoff that took place in Ladakh. Whoever I
52:45spoke
52:45with at that point, there was no doubt in their minds that this had been authorized at the very
52:50highest level of the Chinese leadership. And the fact is that, as General Narasimhan mentioned,
52:54that there has always been a linkage with high-profile Chinese visits and the standoffs.
52:59And we have reports of President Xi Jinping visiting next month for the BRICS summit.
53:05This is possibly a warm-up to that. The fact is that China, whatever be the status of ties between
53:11India and China, they will always insist that the border has to be resolved. And the worrying part,
53:17Gaurav, is the fact that they claim not just parts of Arunachal Pradesh,
53:21they claim the entire Arunachal Pradesh as southern Tibet. It's not the case in Ladakh.
53:26You know, the 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show, General, I just want you to
53:31tell us
53:32that when China says D-link border tensions with overall relationship, that clearly is impossible
53:39for India. And that China must understand peace and tranquility at the border is the basis for any
53:46relationship to move forward. Is that point not getting across to them?
53:50It is enough. It's a sad thing, actually. Right from 2020, Galwan incident downwards,
53:56we have been saying the two things only. One, the line of actual control has to be stable. That is
54:03an interesting one is three mutuals. Mutual respect, mutual sensitivity, and mutual interest.
54:09These are two things that we have been conveying to the Chinese over and over and over again.
54:15Somehow or the other, China feels that, okay, we have signed an agreement on 21st of October,
54:21so that part is over. It doesn't get over like that. Boundary is not only Western sector,
54:26it is the whole of 3488 kilometers. So we need to keep this line of actual control
54:32absolutely stable. And keeping this aside and doing things elsewhere, I don't think it is going to
54:39work with us. That is very clear. You know, this is a story we'll be tracking closely. I've run out
54:42of
54:42time on this part of the show, but General Narsimman and Sandeep, as always, wonderful talking to you.
54:47We'll have a longer conversation in the days ahead. A quick break.
54:51Razeep Sardasai comes up next with the news today at 9. Stay with us.
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