- 6 weeks ago
This episode of India First examines the diplomatic fallout between India and the United States, following Pakistan's Army Chief Asim Munir's threats from US soil, specifically targeting India, former Pentagon official Michael Rubin remarks on Pak Army chief and more.
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00:00Good evening. Pakistan's army chief failed Marshal Asim Munir's threat to take down half the world
00:06if Pakistan faced an existential threat is not being taken lightly in India.
00:12His threat to start targeting India's vulnerabilities in the east and then moving west.
00:20And then he's quoting Surah Alphil along with an image of a top Indian industrialist
00:26and to target our oil refineries. Now that's a cause for major concern at a time when the world knows
00:32that Pakistan lost during Operation Sindur. And he's smarting, he's promoted himself,
00:39he's made himself the field marshal but he knows ground realities have been put out by Indian public domain.
00:45Now US is India's strategic partner. US may be ignoring India's key concerns
00:51but there are voices within the strategic community in the US that are shocked by the US courting Asim Munir.
00:57And there are some who've described General Asim Munir or Field Marshal Asim Munir
01:02as Osama bin Laden in uniform.
01:14Pakistan's saber rattling escalates.
01:17Pakistan threatens war over water.
01:38Bilawal's threat after Munir's rant.
01:41Asim Munir is Osama bin Laden in a suit.
01:45Yet US tags BLA as terror group.
01:52Trump backing Osama in a suit.
01:55That is a big focus on India first.
02:02The United States also declared the Baloch Liberation Army as a designated terrorist organization.
02:08The US and Pakistan have spoken of harnessing the oil and mineral wealth in Balochistan.
02:13So if US is moving into Balochistan, what happens to the China-Pakistan economic corridor?
02:19What happens to all of Chinese investments close to more than 30 billion dollars in Pakistan?
02:26And what does this mean for the India-US comprehensive strategic partnership?
02:31Is there, what many describe, a perceived India-China awe in the works?
02:40So is there a global realignment that's taking place?
02:45We debate.
02:46We debate transactional Trump engaging Osama bin Laden in uniform and its ramifications for this region.
02:54Coming up at 8.30 on India first, battle lines are very clearly drawn over Supreme Court order on the stray dog menace.
03:02Dog lovers say the system is barking up the wrong tree.
03:07We get you that debate.
03:08I'm Gaurav Savant.
03:10As always, let's get started with the headlines on India first.
03:13Government sets the ball rolling on impeachment of Justice Verma.
03:21Speaker names a three-member impeachment panel with a Supreme Court judge, a High Court judge and a lawyer.
03:30Supreme Court backs the election commission in hearing challenging the Bihar voter roll revision says the election commission is right in not accepting Aadhaar as proof.
03:48Sacked Karnataka minister targets the Congress' high command, threatens to expose the conspiracy, says will expose when the time is right.
04:03BJP launches a scathing attack on the Congress' top brass.
04:08After more than 30 years, first raids in the Kashmir genocide investigation, genocide probe body raids in a nurse murder case,
04:24ex-JKLF chief Yaseen Malik's Srinagar home raided.
04:28Kashmiri pundit Sarla Bhatt was murdered in 1990.
04:38No pause on India-U.S. trade talk.
04:43Sources say trade talks with the U.S. continue.
04:46U.S. trade rep travel for the next round of talks soon.
04:56So a day after Pakistan's failed Marshall Asimuni's rant in Tampa, Florida,
05:01threatening to take down half the world if Pakistan faced an existential threat went viral.
05:06Pakistan's former foreign minister and Pakistan People's Party leader,
05:10Bilal Bhutto Zardari's video went viral, talking about waging war against Prime Minister Narendra Modi and India,
05:18taking backwaters of the six rivers for Pakistan.
05:22Very clearly, the Indus Waters Treaty being held in abeyance is playing very heavily on the minds of Pakistanis,
05:30whether it's their army chief or their political leadership.
05:34It is their use of terror as an instrument of state policy against India,
05:39threatening to target our oil refineries,
05:42attacking or talking about attacking our vulnerabilities from the east moving west,
05:47and the silence of the United States for over 24 hours,
05:51that remains a cause for grave concern for India.
05:54Scalded by Operation Sindhoor and parched with India's water war,
06:08Pakistani motor mouths keep provoking India.
06:11Former Pakistan foreign minister Bilal Bhutto Zardari has now issued a direct threat to India over Indus water.
06:18But Bilal Bhutto Zardari didn't stop at India,
06:21but threatened to set the world on fire.
06:23A repeat of Pakistan army chief Munir's nuclear blackmail.
06:26Munir's brazen nuclear threat made on US soil while attending a dinner gala in the US,
06:52New Delhi has hit back hard at the Pakistani army chief's remarks.
06:57While reaffirming commitment to national security at all costs,
07:01India cutting across party lines added that there will be no tolerance for reckless blackmail.
07:06While US President Donald Trump has been silent,
07:07former Pentagon official Michael Rubin saw and Osama bin Laden
07:11in Asim Munir in Asim Munir.
07:13Asim Munir is Osama bin Laden in Asim Munir.
07:14While US President Donald Trump has been silent,
07:16former Pentagon official Michael Rubin saw and Osama bin Laden in Asim Munir.
07:18Asim Munir is Osama bin Laden in a suit.
07:25The fact of the matter is,
07:27there is no amount of concession that can be given to us.
07:29Asim Munir is Osama bin Laden in a suit.
07:33The fact of the matter is there is no amount of concession that can be given to Pakistan
07:48that is going to change the ideology of Asim Munir or the Pakistani elite which he represents.
07:54Pakistan meanwhile scored a major diplomatic boost in the US.
08:03The Trump administration added the Baloch Liberation Army to the list of global terror group.
08:08The Baloch fighters have been battling the oppressive Pakistan rule and its numerous war crimes.
08:14The only question that remains,
08:16who will stand with India when it counts the most?
08:19With Pranehupadhyay, Bureau Report, India Today.
08:24There are multiple significant points in what Asim Munir said,
08:29in what Bilaval Bhutto Zardari says,
08:31and it perhaps gives you an idea of what the Pakistani mindset is.
08:36Pakistan's failed Marshal Asim Munir,
08:38he is not only threatening to target India,
08:40but this time, while he is in the United States of America,
08:43he is threatening to take down half the world.
08:46He is in Tampa, Florida and the US is silent.
08:49So a comprehensive strategic partner is being threatened
08:51by a state sponsor of radical Islamist terror with a nuclear attack from US soil.
08:58And the otherwise very vocal US President Donald Trump or his administration?
09:03Not a word from them.
09:04But does this silence actually speak louder than words?
09:08Has the US made its choice very clear?
09:11Transactional Trump chooses to engage Pakistan for short-term gains compared to a democratic India,
09:19which has long-term strategic gains.
09:22And how does one explain US giving more time to China on Russian oil?
09:28Is that US fears, especially at a time when there are bulk orders in China for the Christmas season and the New Year's?
09:37Now joining me on India First is Ambassador Veena Sikri, a former top diplomat,
09:41has been a High Commissioner to Bangladesh,
09:43Dr. Tara Karthas, former Director of the National Security Council Secretariat.
09:47John Rosmundo is a geopolitical and national security strategist and a former senior analyst for counter-terrorism.
09:54Joining us on the show from the United States of America,
09:56Sushant Sarin is a senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation,
10:01someone who tracks the US and Pakistan very closely.
10:04Ambassador Sikri, does the US silence speak louder than its words?
10:10What do you make of what Aasem Munir said and what US should have said and didn't?
10:17Well, yes, I think it is quite shocking that Aasem Munir should make such a statement from American soil.
10:24And nobody in the American administration, leave alone President Trump, has cared to say anything about it.
10:30This is absolutely shocking considering the comprehensive strategic partnership with India.
10:35And of course, our MA has made a strong statement.
10:38But my overall feeling is that President Trump is right now preoccupied or, shall I say, obsessed with only one thing,
10:46concluding a trade deal with China.
10:48And this, you know, is something that is driving him.
10:51That's why he's given the extra 90 days now to China, which is absolutely quite shocking in itself,
10:56because obviously the trade deal that he was looking for has not yet been concluded.
11:01The talks have been going on for quite a while in different parts of the world.
11:04But clearly that has not been concluded. Another 90 days has been given.
11:08And in this process of working on this trade deal with China, he is trying to show to China that, look, Pakistan is not yours.
11:17It is mine, too. And he's showing the Pakistan card.
11:19Bangladesh is not yours. It is mine, too.
11:21It is mine, too. And he's, you know, showing the Bangladesh card.
11:24And a lot of American diplomats are very, very active in Bangladesh at this point.
11:29He's even showing the Myanmar card that, you know, look, I mean, he's withdrawn the sanctions about certain individuals in Myanmar that had earlier been given to them.
11:38So in my view, this is something that is driving him very strongly.
11:44But I can agree that certainly for the what this means for the India-US strategic partnership is something that we have to look at very carefully.
11:53Because, you know, the business of putting a 50 percent, 20 percent extra tariff on India just for buying Russian oil at a time when China is buying much more Russian oil.
12:03Turkey is buying more Russian oil from from Russia than India does.
12:09And, you know, knowing that India has been has started buying Russian oil after discussion with the USA, you know, Eric Archechi had made a very clear statement that we asked India to buy Russian oil with a price cap so as to keep the...
12:24So all indications, all indications, he doesn't care.
12:27Dr. Tara Kartha, transactional Trump chooses, chooses Pakistan over a comprehensive strategic partner, India.
12:35Is that an indication that the CENTCOM in the US is saying that, look, we need Pakistan PACOM or, you know, the INPACOM, as it was called, is not sure how Quad is moving forward in a year when India is hosting the Quad summit.
12:52So all indications are that he thinks the relationship with India may remain iffy.
12:57That's why he'd rather encircle India and do what, you know, as Ambassador Sikri said, do what he thinks is in America's best interest.
13:05Well, I think the Americans have always acted in their best interest.
13:09I mean, they have never bothered about any ally.
13:11Forget about us.
13:12It's not...
13:13They don't even bother.
13:14I mean, look at that pipeline which burst, which was in Europe, the Russia-Europe pipeline.
13:19Has there any investigation been done into that?
13:21Nothing.
13:22So let's not go down that road.
13:24However, I do believe what you're saying is absolutely right.
13:27This whole Asim Munir, you know, going to Washington, the second time around again he goes.
13:32He's going for Kurala's retirement party.
13:35This is a CENTCOM rewards program.
13:38It's very clear.
13:40And in that I would also include that BLA, that BLA Majid Brigade designation.
13:45BLA was already designated.
13:47Now you've got this Majid Brigade.
13:49This is all a return gifts issue which is going on.
13:53And it is, if you, if you see the readout of between Secretary Rubio and Foreign Minister
14:00Dar between Pakistan, it only talks about one thing in specific.
14:04That is Iran.
14:05Yes.
14:06So there is a very strong wave, different ways, I don't know how, where Pakistan is being
14:12used for Iran.
14:14And also counter-terrorism on, they're saying counter-terrorism on Islamic State which is Pakistan's,
14:19you know, little toffee which they can use when they want to.
14:22Okay.
14:23When they want to go on.
14:24Okay.
14:25But this is, this whole rant which you referred to, at some level it is, I mean at one level
14:31you don't know whether to laugh or to cry, right?
14:34I mean the kind of things he said.
14:36But it's a very serious thing.
14:38And there will be parts of the United States government which will not look very kindly on
14:44this.
14:45There is a strong non-proliferation lobby which will see this statement as dangerous.
14:50And that is what we need to build on.
14:53Okay.
14:54Okay.
14:55Sushant Sareen, there are American analysts who have described Aasem Munir as Osama bin Laden
14:59in a suit or a uniform.
15:01Now, is Aasem Munir signaling to the world dare not ignore the Pakistani nukes despite Operation
15:10Sindur because I will not just take down India, I will self-destruct unless you pay me more
15:17money and America wants to pay him more money to counter, in your appreciation counter China
15:22or checkmate Iran.
15:23Look, I, you know, I think it's a rather complicated situation.
15:31If what Ambassador Sikri and Tara are saying is correct, I am not so worried.
15:37You know, then it's fine.
15:38It's just fun and games.
15:40My fear is that it's a lot worse than that.
15:44And we might, we might be making a mistake if we think that what is happening currently
15:50between India and the United States is a kind of an aberration.
15:54And like Tara says, that there are people in the non-proliferation lobby who will be very
15:59angry, fat lot of good that will do to us.
16:02And what is the influence that they wield in the American system today?
16:07Unless you are Steve Witkoff or you are some other crony of Trump, what is the influence
16:12you wield in the United States today, right?
16:15Whom does he listen to?
16:16Does he listen to any of those various professionals in the various newspapers in the think tank?
16:21He doesn't listen to anybody, right?
16:23And it's very clear the direction in which things are moving.
16:28Now, initially I would have been of the same view as my other two colleagues.
16:34But I think that increasingly we are seeing signs that this is a relationship which is
16:42probably already a train wreck.
16:44The damage is not being witnessed.
16:45It's already a train wreck.
16:47It's already a train wreck.
16:49Tell me something.
16:50You know, Gaurav, I have been hearing for at least the last 25-30 years we cannot trust
16:55the Americans.
16:56Okay?
16:57Yes.
16:58And a lot of us who were very keen on a closer relationship with the United States used to say that, no, you know,
17:05that is something which was in the past.
17:07And we were always told that the Americans deliberately prop up the Pakistanis as a lever against India.
17:14This was, this was, call it folklore, call it what you want, call it legend, folklore, give it whatever name you want.
17:21And a lot of us were very skeptical about it.
17:23Today, I think there is a lot of truth in that.
17:26Because if Trump, as people like Hussain Akani and others are suggesting, is using Pakistan to finger us to get some concessions out of us, then it proves to me that you are now using a country like Pakistan as a lever against me, which is exactly what was being said about the United States in the past.
17:47That it will never let peace come in the South Asian region because it wants to keep these guys going hammer and tongs.
17:54Now, that is one way of looking at it.
17:55The other way of looking at it is that Trump wants that India and Pakistan should become friends so that he can do business.
18:02And that is it.
18:04He doesn't care about history.
18:06He does not care about the reality of the situation.
18:09He does not care about the complications out here.
18:12Okay.
18:13He has decided in his own mind that this is what must happen.
18:16And so, yes, Aasemuneer is here.
18:18So, Modi, why don't you come over and I will make you guys shake hands, take a picture.
18:22And yes, peace has been established.
18:24And give me a Nobel Prize.
18:26Okay.
18:27Yeah.
18:28You know, so I think there is something much, much, much worse which is underway.
18:33And the sooner we prepare ourselves for whatever is likely to follow, the better it will be for us.
18:39So, I will just come to you to elaborate on what is this much, much, much worse because there are many analysts who are now saying,
18:45you know, what you've just said, don't trust the Americans.
18:48And we've always told you so.
18:50So, John Rosmando, your appreciation.
18:53What explains the US silence over Aasemuneer's desperate rant of taking down half the world if Pakistan faced an existential threat?
19:02From the US, you have Pakistan that's issuing a nuclear threat to a comprehensive strategic partner of the US and not a word from there, sir.
19:11Well, I think that there's a lot of, you know, very muddled, you know, pro-Pakistan sentiment in the State Department.
19:22And, you know, look the other way to Pakistan's sort of support for terrorism.
19:39I mean, this recent designation of the Balochistan Liberation Army as a terrorist organization is a, you know, effort to build closer ties with Pakistan,
19:53despite, you know, looking at, you know, Pakistan's support for, you know, the jihadis who carried out the pogrom attacks last spring.
20:03I, you know, the other, the only thing that they're going to justify this on is the fact that the BLA trained in Al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan.
20:14No, but Donald Trump is, is, is, the Americans are supposed to be smarter considering you were able to hunt down, track and neutralize Osama bin Laden's SEAL Team 6,
20:24went in and neutralized Osama bin Laden, the man who was responsible for killing close to 3,000 people in 9-11,
20:31more than, you know, close to 3,000 people were killed in Afghanistan, traced back a large number to Haqqani Network,
20:37aided, abetted, funded, and fueled by Pakistan. And yet today, Pakistan is your, is America's best friend. Why?
20:45Is this a Nobel Prize, cryptocurrency? Even in Pakistan, people are very skeptical about oil being found in Balochistan.
20:54Well, honestly, I wish I had a good answer for you because it's, you know, the thousand, you know, dollar question as to, you know, President Trump is an enigma.
21:07You know, he, you know, I think that he needs to look at, you know, India is, you know, more logical ally for the U.S. than Pakistan, which is a military dictatorship that, you know, killed American troops in Afghanistan.
21:26Yes.
21:27I, you know, I think that this is just completely baffling, and honestly, I'm about as, you know, confused by this, you know, effort to, you know, get close to Pakistan as you are,
21:40other than, you know, perhaps trying to find a way where he can mediate between Pakistan and India by being, you know, good cop, bad cop.
21:53I, you know, wish I could answer the question.
21:56So, Ambassador Sikri, let me bring this to you. Is he trying to ensure that China-Pakistan economic corridor collapses?
22:03Whatever investment China has made in Pakistan, in CPEC, $30 billion, promised $60 billion, all of that goes down the drain in case America were to invest in Balochistan.
22:15Is it to checkmate Iran? What is your reading, ma'am?
22:19Well, I think to checkmate China, certainly, it is very clear that the initial contact with Asim Munir, the famous lunch, etc., was all to do about Iran.
22:28And it is also being speculated that maybe those B-2 bombers actually didn't make the 37-hour journey, but actually took off from Pakistan.
22:36It could well have been. But I think that, you know, my apprehension, to follow up a little bit on what Sushant has said,
22:45my apprehension is that, is America about to agree to a G-2 situation with China?
22:51Because, you know, this is what, right from the time of Barack Obama, they've been wanting to persuade the USA to accept a G-2.
22:58That you have your sphere of influence, we have our sphere of influence, etc.
23:02And this is the kind of jockeying that is going on for that.
23:06And this is what has to be really worrisome for us, because we don't accept that at all.
23:11We are very convinced about our strategic autonomy and multi-alignment.
23:16And we believe that there should be multipolarity in the world, different groups at different times.
23:20So I think we have to accept or anticipate possibilities and plan for it accordingly.
23:27Of course, there are many aspects of the Indo-U.S. relationship that are continuing.
23:31Many meetings are continuing. Many programs are continuing.
23:34The Nassar took place. The IMEC meeting took place.
23:37And other anticipated meetings are expected to take place.
23:40A lot is being put on the next round of trade talks in Delhi in the third week of August to see how they go.
23:48Will they be difficult?
23:50A lot is being also put on the summit between President Putin and President Trump this Friday.
23:57In Alaska, yes.
23:58In Alaska.
23:59So I think these are a lot of moving parts.
24:01But we have to be prepared.
24:03We have to anticipate all of this and continue with our programs.
24:07You had a very good FTA with the UK.
24:10And we are prepared to do one with the EU.
24:12I think all we need to go on.
24:14So our focus on multipolarity will remain.
24:16We are not going to change that.
24:18This is very important that we are not going to change our progress.
24:21So before I bring in Dr. Tara Kartha.
24:23Sushant Sareen elaborate on what you think could happen which is much, much worse in the times to come.
24:31So Gaurab, I need to clarify something which John said which I disagree with and I think I need to put it out there.
24:38He says that the BLA trained in the camps of the Al-Qaeda.
24:42The BLA and the Al-Qaeda have never been good friends.
24:45In fact, they have gone hammer and tongs at each other.
24:48There is no ideological affinity between them.
24:51And the BLA is a national liberation movement and not a terrorist organization.
24:58I think we need to make that very clear.
25:00And in fact, we were told by the Americans that there are no Al-Qaeda camps left in Afghanistan.
25:07In Afghanistan.
25:08And in fact, it's the American president who has been meeting with Ahmed Sharra who is Al-Qaeda.
25:15So I don't think I want to go down that road right now.
25:20But again, on how things will be much worse.
25:24Look, I don't think this is about trade anymore.
25:26Ambassador Sikri is very optimistic that maybe some kind of a deal can be worked out.
25:32I don't think it's about trade because I think whatever trade deal was negotiated between India and the United States in a spirit of transactionalism and a spirit of give and take, the demand from the American side was that it has only to be take and no give.
25:50I think what Trump is looking for is capitulation.
25:54What he is looking for is subservience and servility.
25:58And he's not getting it.
26:00So I don't think you can sign whatever trade deal you want to sign.
26:04The fact that he thinks that he can impose the tariffs on India and it's not, it's a cost free option for the United States.
26:11It tells you that he doesn't give a rat's ass on what happens to the relations with India.
26:16He's not ready to do that with the Chinese.
26:19He's not ready to do it with the Turks.
26:21He's not ready to put any kind of sanctions on the Europeans who are the largest buyers of Russian oil.
26:27But he thinks that he can target India and that's a cost free option.
26:31So, you know, let's smell the coffee.
26:34Come on, let's be clear about it.
26:36The guy is deliberately trying to burn this relationship down.
26:40If you want, you can try and save it for whatever it's worth.
26:44But I don't see much prospect of it, at least for the next three and a half years.
26:49And if another Trumpian character, you can't rule that out, comes into power in the US after 2020, what, 2028.
26:59Then seven years, seven and a half years.
27:02And by that time, who knows where the world is going to be?
27:05Okay, Dr. Tara Kartha, is that also your appreciation?
27:08Before I bring in, you know, John to respond to this, that Trump doesn't care about India-US relationship anymore.
27:16And by all accounts, it would seem so.
27:19And the relationship had started fraying.
27:22Now, was it just because India did not recommend him for a Nobel Prize or, you know, accept his false claims that he had a role to play in the ceasefire?
27:31Could that be the only reason?
27:33Or is there a deeper game at play here?
27:36There are some who are talking about, even in the Biden administration, when they messed around in Bangladesh, the aim was regime change Bangladesh, regime change India next.
27:49Regime change Bangladesh, certainly.
27:51I mean, there's no two ways on that.
27:53I think Ambassador Sikri and I have discussed this earlier also.
27:56Regime change in India, all I can say is that historically, no US administration has been comfortable with a country which has a very solid leadership, you know, strong leadership.
28:10I mean, vis-a-vis, just look at the continuing tensions between Washington and France, for instance.
28:16They've never liked the French, they never liked the French independent nuclear deterrent.
28:20So that is a tradition.
28:21But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the relationship is on the rocks, because like I always tell you, trade, it's political theatre.
28:33That is what he's doing.
28:34And underneath that is the relationship which goes on in multiple areas.
28:39So trade, technology, strategic partnership, defence, these are three core areas where the effort was to take it forward.
28:48If trade is collapsing, technology and strategic partnership.
28:52Are we moving forward on critical defence technology?
28:55Clearly not.
28:56I mean, some GE 404 engines, they may finally start sending.
29:00Ambassador Sikri, you wanted to comment the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show.
29:03Yeah, but actually, I think that I don't think one should have a completely doomsday approach to this because then it prevents us from preparing a fight back, a recovery.
29:14It prevents all of that.
29:15I think that, you know, there has to be, we have to wait and see what is the blowback within USA on the tariffs.
29:22It's not too sanguine because, you know, with the prices going up, there's a pressure building up.
29:27And also the blowback on things like, are we going to buy the F-35s anymore?
29:32Are we going to go through with some defence deals that have been put on hold?
29:35So, you know, this is a kind of a situation which each side is looking at very carefully.
29:41Now, why this whole Trump thing began with Pakistan, whether it was a cryptocurrency, whether it was a visit by, you know, Gentry Beach and others to the US, to Pakistan and the resultant,
29:53it's something because it's so diametrically opposite to what President Trump said in his first term.
29:58So this zigzagging means that there could be a zag after the zig.
30:02So I think that we are going to keep on to our own foreign policy of strategic autonomy.
30:09We're going to, you know, in terms of doing our relations with other groups, working on our relationships with Southeast Asia, with Africa, a lot of other countries.
30:19And I think we already see as far as trade with USA is concerned, you know, the 25% tariffs on certain items.
30:26They're also pharma is exempt, iPhones are exempt, all that is exempt.
30:30So whatever is impacted, you look at different alternative markets for those, all that is there.
30:36And in the meanwhile, you assess and you see what you can do and where you can get in on that.
30:40But I think that, you know, on Balochistan, it's quite, it's a big blow for the Balochistan movement.
30:46And, you know, the authors like Selick Harrison have also supported independence for Balochistan, you know.
30:51So there's a, there's a great groundswell across the world.
30:54And now to ban both the Majeed Brigade and the BLA, this is, you know, something which is clearly giving in once again to what Asim Munir has asked for.
31:03Now, this question of, again, Asim Munir, every time getting what he's asking for, it's just like, you know, writing these blank checks and Trump is signing off on them.
31:13So it, it, it is worrisome. It is a matter of great concern.
31:16You know, because...
31:17Give it.
31:18Okay. John Rossmodo, every blank check that the US signed even in the past for Pakistan, it was paid in blood with American lives lost.
31:29But how myopic is the American approach? 9-11 Osama bin Laden found in Abbottabad.
31:362,700 American and NATO soldiers killed in Afghanistan traced back to Pakistan and yet another blank check for Pakistan.
31:44Well, I think the one thing that, you know, Veena kind of alluded to is, you know, Trump's desire to, you know, isolate China.
31:56I mean, the BLA targeted the China-Pakistan economic corridor.
32:02And perhaps Trump is trying or thinks that he can wean Pakistan away from its dependence on China.
32:11That's the only, you know, like logical or strategic angle that I can think of that, you know, Trump is trying to do.
32:19Because, you know, you have the, what our port that China's been developing, Karachi.
32:27So I think that is about the only strategic angle that I can find with providing Pakistan with carrots.
32:37However, as you point out, US policy toward Pakistan in the past has been a complete and utter disaster.
32:44I've been going to Osama bin Laden, Afghanistan, you know, where the Afghan army and US forces found ISI, you know, people alongside dead Taliban.
33:01So, I think, you know, the US needs to be careful in what it's doing here and President Trump needs to beware.
33:08I just hope the, you know, saner minds prevail in the United States of America.
33:15But I guess Ola is now on that meeting in Alaska between President Trump and President Putin.
33:21Will something emerge from there?
33:24And is this India-US relationship a train wreck or can it still be salvaged?
33:30We'll watch that story closely. To all my guests, many thanks for joining me.
33:33So there is now this intense battle that's taking place between those who call themselves dog lovers and those who say they want their colonies and their environment free of that threat of being bitten by a stray dog.
33:49This, after a division bench of Justice's J.B. Partiwala and R. Mahadevan, they passed a slew of directives that include constructing shelter homes for stray dogs, creating a helpline to report dog bites, making the rabies vaccine available to all in hospitals.
34:06So, you know, animal rights activists, they say, no, no, how can you take away all the stray dogs?
34:12Where will you keep them? We'll start culling them.
34:14And then those who call themselves human rights activists, they say we can't watch images like these all the time that in, you know, packs of these strays, they come and attack either the elderly or the children.
34:25India has perhaps one of the world's largest number of stray animals and rabies attacks.
34:34That's what statistics point. And then they say if you love stray dogs, take them home, feed them, love them, look after them inside your house.
34:43Don't just give them stale roti on the streets. We get you more in this report.
34:56Fight over stray dogs reaches the streets. A day after Supreme Court ordered removal of stray dogs off Delhi's roads within eight weeks, animal rights activists reached India Gate to protest.
35:11A sore motor judgment, and that too with the tone that the judge used yesterday, where he refused to listen to any party.
35:19After you have put your case on your own.
35:21Minimum 10,000 dogs, there are 5 acres of land required.
35:25So, where will you take the land from Delhi and NCR?
35:29Where will you transport more than 3,000,000 dogs?
35:33Leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi called the court order a step back from decades of humane, science-backed policy.
35:40He added that blanket removals are cruel, short-sighted, and strip us of compassion.
35:48People have come and cut them out. But why did we get into this situation?
35:54Because there is an injustice, a municipal corporation, and a country's justice, which has been forced on them.
36:02Delhi Chief Minister Rekha Gupta, meanwhile, backed the order.
36:07This problem, in which the state of Delhi is standing in front of Delhi,
36:11in which the government has been forced to give peace with the government.
36:17This is a great pleasure.
36:19MCD officials admit the order will be tough to execute on time.
36:24Now, the situation will take a little time.
36:28But if there is no place to build a place,
36:31or if there is no place to build a central home,
36:33then we will not do everything.
36:35On the ground, the situation is far from positive.
36:38One MCD shelter in Lashpatnagar is locked up.
36:42This is called the MCD ABC unit, which is run under the Animal India Trust.
36:49It is registered trust.
36:50And we have knocked two, three times.
36:52But there is no one here to actually open the doors of the shelter.
36:56There are dogs barking inside.
36:58But this seems to be the grim reality of the shelters in Delhi at the moment.
37:06Another centre at Masoodpur is overcrowded and understaffed.
37:11All these dogs are brought here.
37:14They are kept here.
37:15They are neutered.
37:17And then they are kept for observation for some time.
37:21And then they are released into their natural habitat.
37:24But of course, the situation seems to be deplorable
37:28because the entire centre needs a little bit organisation.
37:34There is no cleaning as such.
37:36And there is staff shortage as well.
37:39One major sterilisation centre in Tughlaqabad
37:42is run by an NGO with a past full of complaints,
37:46including cruelty and rule violations.
37:49Doctors allotted from this centre are not present right now.
37:53They have not come over here.
37:55We are not saying that this is an excuse.
37:58But we are just giving you the real picture
38:00that a centre exists.
38:01Two doctors are supposed to be here,
38:04but they are not present over here.
38:06The MCD centre is tendered to an NGO in Gujarat.
38:09These are the things that we need to highlight.
38:12The operational challenges are very different
38:14from what it is written on paper.
38:17Ideally, an ABC centre should be running in the proper manner.
38:21The doctors should be present.
38:23And clearly, it shouldn't be shut down
38:26like the one that we see here right now.
38:28Caught between advocates of humane care
38:31and those who want a clean-up,
38:33Delhi's trade-off crisis shows no sign of settling.
38:37With Millan Sharma and Shreya Chatterjee,
38:39Bureau Report, India Today.
38:41So, let's get you all sides of the story here on India First.
38:46Joining me on the show is Gauri Mulekhi,
38:48a very well-respected animal welfare activist and trustee.
38:52Sayyad Asad Abbas is a citizen's rights activist.
38:55Gauri Mulekhi, there are statistics that are being put forward
38:58that say 36% of rabies deaths take place in India.
39:01Our country has the world's largest stray dog population.
39:04We've also seen, and we're putting out those horrifying videos
39:07of packs of dogs attacking children and the elderly.
39:11And there is no provocation in these.
39:13And I want to put out those pictures.
39:14Look at that little child being attacked by a pack of dogs.
39:18So, clearly, safety or a safe environment
39:21for children and the elderly more important than feeding strays.
39:31Okay, give me a moment as I try and re-establish this link
39:34with Gauri Mulekhi, but Sayyad Asad Abbas,
39:36experts have argued that this order is not doable.
39:41You know, leaders like Menaka Gandhi,
39:43who know what they're talking about,
39:45they say that angry judgments are seldom sensible
39:50or worse to that effect,
39:51that there is no government-run dog shelter in Delhi
39:55where such a large number of stray dogs can be kept.
39:58You know, this order may be very popular.
40:03It's not implementable, sir.
40:06The fact of the matter, Gaurav, we need to understand
40:08that in our country, there are 6.2 crores stray dogs.
40:12And as we speak, I could say it's counting.
40:14We account for the 100% rabies-related deaths of the world.
40:18We account for 36% of it.
40:21And these are real stats and figures that I present to you, sir.
40:25Now, let me come to the point.
40:26According to the ICMR report,
40:28there are 9.1 billion bites, dog bites,
40:33which is absolutely unfortunate.
40:34Let me get it closer home.
40:36Here in Begadulu, in Kodigyali police station limits,
40:4070-year-old man who was out for a walk
40:42was killed by eight stray dogs.
40:45His face, limbs, torso, flesh torn off.
40:49I want to play out those images.
40:51I want to play out those images.
40:52You know, the images that you're mentioning and those like this.
40:55I want people to see how these dogs hunt in packs
41:00and take down innocents and not just one,
41:02but multiple such instances across the country.
41:05There is no provocation.
41:07Some of these are young children.
41:09Some of these are old people just going for a morning walk,
41:12going to the temple and suddenly attacked by a pack of dogs.
41:16Complete your point.
41:17I think I have Gauri Mulay back.
41:19Yes, yes.
41:20So, yes.
41:21Hubali,
41:23kilometers from Bengaluru.
41:25Three-year-old, unprovoked,
41:27three-year-old child was killed by stray dogs.
41:30Merat, a three-month-old baby was mauled to death.
41:34Punjab, Haryana, Gujarat, and the list is huge.
41:38Thousands of deaths.
41:39Who is responsible?
41:41The fact of the matter we need to understand is,
41:43the Supreme Court has asked for a shelter home.
41:46Not just that.
41:47Vaccination, sterilization, which needs to come through.
41:51CCTV monitor.
41:53Also let us understand that we need to take strong measures here.
41:57And the Supreme Court is absolutely right,
42:00as no more elderly or the children can be harmed by this menace.
42:04I know a lot of my friends who are animal rights activists,
42:07they said do not use the word stray dog menace.
42:10Why not?
42:11Let me look in their eye and tell today,
42:13had it happened to their own kids,
42:15had it happened to their own near ones, dear ones,
42:17would they still not call it a menace?
42:19I completely stand with the Supreme Court on this front.
42:22Okay, sir.
42:23Let me bring in Gauri Mulekhi.
42:24Let me bring in Gauri Mulekhi to respond to this ma'am.
42:28You know those horrifying images of packs of dogs attacking children or the elderly
42:34without being provoked.
42:36Now, the society also has a right to be safe.
42:40Stray dogs, keep them perhaps in an area where you can feed them,
42:45look after them,
42:46but not where they are a menace to the society at large.
42:50So, Gaurav, when we imagine places where dogs are kept and fed and looked after,
43:02those places only exist in theory,
43:05because considering that Delhi and NCR have about 10 lakh dogs,
43:09to create ghettos or concentration camps for them
43:13will become such amazing biohazards and public health menace
43:20that the Supreme Court in its wisdom wanted to resolve something,
43:24but will end up actually making the public health and public safety problem
43:30much, much more worse.
43:32So, that is one thing.
43:34Second is on the issue of dog bites,
43:36clearly there are a lot of dog bites that are avoidable,
43:40but the numbers that we are peddling right now,
43:44and I am using this word responsibly,
43:46is absolutely incorrect.
43:48Incorrect numbers.
43:49Ma'am, even if it is one,
43:51look at that image of that young child
43:53not provoking a dog,
43:55but a pack of dogs attack her.
43:57Tell her mother that these are incorrect figures being peddled.
44:00You're right.
44:01I am talking about cumulative numbers.
44:04I am talking about individual cases.
44:06Let's also talk individual cases, they are equally important.
44:09Director General of Health Services, Government of India,
44:12has written to all the states,
44:14that for every dispensed vial of post-exposure rabies vaccine,
44:18you are tagging one dog bite.
44:21In five successive doses,
44:23actually five dog bites are getting recorded.
44:26Which of these bites are from pet dogs is not getting recorded.
44:29So, this year itself, a regime has been placed by the central government
44:33on all state governments.
44:34Delhi has still not started recording dog bites in that particular manner,
44:39which would segregate pet dogs from street dogs,
44:42and would avoid duplication of entry of dog bites.
44:46Currently, your numbers are extremely exaggerated,
44:48so that's one thing.
44:49In fact, that format is not yet being followed in most states.
44:54UP, I know it's being followed in,
44:56and in some other parts,
44:58but not definitely in Delhi,
45:00because that order has just been given last year by the GNCTD to the CMO.
45:06So, clearly some incidents are avoidable and very unfortunate,
45:11but we also have to see these incidents occur more in places where un-neutered dogs exist,
45:17where people are hostile to dogs.
45:19So, if specifically we can make a policy for dogs that are un-neutered,
45:24for where there are lactating mothers,
45:27which have more of a tendency to bite,
45:29to concentrate animal birth control programs in a scientific manner over there.
45:33If, because there is one very disturbing video,
45:37we compound the problem many, many times,
45:40and start putting 10 lakh dogs in ghettos,
45:43it will only spoil our ecological balance.
45:46Imagine the number of monkeys that will invade Delhi if all dogs are removed.
45:51Imagine the proliferation of cats,
45:53the rats coming out of our underground sewages,
45:56which are not scared of you and me.
45:58They are only there, you know, out of our sight,
46:02because the scavenging animals such as dogs and cats are...
46:05Gaurav, I need to come in with facts, yeah?
46:07We don't want to go down an unscientific route.
46:11We have a problem, we need a scientific response.
46:14No, you must come in because, okay, Gauri Moleki makes the point,
46:17one, exist peacefully coexist,
46:20you know, sterilization has to be scientific,
46:23and that entire ecosystem.
46:26It's a very fragile ecosystem.
46:27You remove dogs en masse,
46:29that ecosystem gets adversely impacted,
46:31is the point she's making response, sir.
46:33Now, let me quickly respond to ma'am.
46:36With all due respect, I will show you the data, the details of the Deccan Herald News Service,
46:41which is a highly researched report.
46:43I'd also like to tweet the same front to you.
46:45This is done by the Central Health Department.
46:47I come from the land of Karnataka, ma'am,
46:49and according to the data, the health department,
46:52this sharp increase is significantly compared to higher 2024,
46:57which saw 3.6 lakh dog bite cases and 42 rabies deaths,
47:03of which 1.69 lakh cases and 28 deaths were recorded just between January and July.
47:10These are not pedal numbers, ma'am.
47:12These are research scientific numbers carried by able media institutions.
47:16Now, come to the point.
47:17I completely agree on all my dear animal rights activist friends,
47:22with whom I was at Press Club of Bangalore today,
47:24that the beautiful man's loyal best friend dogs have a right to exist.
47:29There is no doubt about it.
47:30They are living beings and they have every right from the Pramatma to exist on this beautiful earth.
47:35But the fact is, there needs to be measures taken in here.
47:38There needs to be measures which are scientific, humane, and holistic.
47:42If you have carefully read the judgment of the Supreme Court, ma'am, what does it advise?
47:47It is only not talking about capturing dogs and taking them away in the far off land.
47:51No, ma'am.
47:52They are talking of scientific measures, the right form of sterilization,
47:56implementation of the Animal Birth Control Bill 2023 to take place.
48:01They also speak of vaccination.
48:02They also speak of providing hygienic food and water.
48:04Sir, let me break this down.
48:05Just 30 seconds, ma'am.
48:06Just 30 seconds, ma'am.
48:07I will be extremely happy.
48:08Just 30 seconds, ma'am.
48:09I will be extremely happy.
48:10Just 30 seconds, ma'am.
48:11And it would resolve everything if the Supreme Court's order talks about implementation of the Animal Birth Control Bill.
48:16I will not interrupt you, ma'am.
48:17Ma'am, can I get 30 seconds, please?
48:20The Supreme Court also speaks of provision of hygienic food and water.
48:25Most importantly, that no dogs are dealt with cruelty.
48:29CCTV put to be formed there.
48:31And this, starting in Delhi, will be implemented across the country.
48:35You know, Sayyad, the question remains, where will the funding come from?
48:38Which agency will fund it?
48:40Do we have those kind of funds?
48:41But Gauri Mulekhi, just take it step by step.
48:44Because the state, the MCD and the NDMC, according to the Supreme Court,
48:48should begin with 5,000 dogs in the next six to eight weeks.
48:52Now, everyone's saying, what will 10,000 dogs happen?
48:55Start small.
48:56Start with 5,000.
48:57That's what the court is saying.
48:59Do it at the earliest.
49:01Start picking up strays from all localities.
49:03But go first in the vulnerable localities.
49:06In cities as well as areas on the outskirts.
49:09How to do this, authorities know best.
49:12However, first and foremost, exercise so that all localities,
49:18make sure that this exercise ensures that all localities are free of strays.
49:22There should not be any compromise on undertaking this exercise.
49:26The court also warns that if any individual or any organization comes in the way of picking up a stray dog or routinely rounding them up,
49:33then the courts will proceed sternly against them.
49:37So ma'am, if there is a pilot project that is being undertaken,
49:41if it makes our localities safer, our children safer, our elderly safer,
49:47why is everyone so against this order?
49:51Let there be a pilot project.
49:54Well, the order, God of the order is not out yet.
49:58But since I have witnessed the hearing,
50:00I can say this with complete confidence that what my dear friend Syed's imagination is taking him to,
50:07good food, no cruelty, no such thing was dictated in the order at all.
50:12Sure. No, he is quoting a different report.
50:14I am quoting, I am quoting from what happened in quote in terms of 5,000.
50:18I am sure a lot of people have heard the hearing.
50:19No such, in fact, in fact, not even any mention of animal birth control rules 2023 was mentioned.
50:27Yeah, yeah, I am not going by, no, no, no, ma'am, ma'am.
50:29It would be great.
50:30Just respond to what I asked you.
50:32Respond to what I asked you.
50:33However, yeah, yeah.
50:38Okay, about 5,000 dogs, again, unscientific.
50:42Wherever you remove these 5,000 dogs from,
50:44and it will conflict with the other direction of the court,
50:47which orally was heard by everybody,
50:50that a helpline number has to be made where anybody can make a complaint regarding any dog,
50:56not exactly a biting dog, but just any complaint regarding a dog.
51:00It could be one neighbor not liking his other neighbor's, you know, dog or something.
51:05No, is it for a pet or is it for a stray?
51:07Ma'am, is it for a pet or a stray?
51:11Basically, that distinction also has been removed because that clarity was sought by the bench,
51:17by the bar to the bench, that clarity was asked for.
51:22That would this apply only to pet dogs or street dogs?
51:25The bench refused to get that clarity.
51:27So he said, oh, that will be left to the wisdom of the authorities.
51:32So biting dogs should be resumed, should be removed?
51:36What is actually making?
51:38No, because we, look, ultimately the bench also said, at no cost, at no cost,
51:45should infants and the young fall prey to rabies?
51:48I am sure you agree with that.
51:50Protecting dogs, yes, but not at the cost of children getting rabies or the elderly getting rabies.
51:55Absolutely.
51:56There is a rule to that effect.
51:57There is a rule to that effect.
51:58But that rule is not being implemented.
52:00Yes, absolutely.
52:01Look at what is happening on the street.
52:02In fact, the rule is there.
52:05See what wonderful implementation Lucknow has done.
52:08UP has done.
52:09Uttarakhand has done.
52:10They have resolved their biting dog cases, their population management matters,
52:15with one-one ABC centers each.
52:17Delhi has 20.
52:19In the past few regimes of governments that we have had, in 25 years they have made a mess
52:24of Delhi completely.
52:25With this new government, we now expect Delhi to do better.
52:29We expect Delhi to copy the models of UP and Uttarakhand, which have just used single,
52:34single ABC centers in cities and resolved their ABC problems, their dog biting problems,
52:40their, you know, clashes.
52:42The conflict is mitigated much better in those states because the rule is implemented properly.
52:48The principal secretaries monitor the programs.
52:51Here in Delhi, the monitoring committees weren't even made till I had to challenge them in
52:56High Court in contempt.
52:57So, Delhi is a different mess that should be settled now, which should be cleared by this
53:04new government rather than taking it into a deeper mess and creating a public health hazard,
53:09a biohazard for these ghettos of dog menaces.
53:12Sayyad, I've run out of time on this part of the show.
53:15But I will let what Gauri Molekhi said be the last word on this part of the show.
53:20Because the quote was very clear.
53:22Not at any cost should infants and young fall prey to rabies.
53:27This action, according to them, should inspire confidence that children can move about freely
53:33without the fear of being bitten by stray dogs.
53:37Will this order be implemented and how?
53:39Is a story, we'll be tracking very closely.
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