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This edition of India First, hosted by India Today TV's Gaurav Sawant, examines the aftermath of the July 20 clashes in Delhi, where over 200 security personnel from the Delhi Police, Central Reserve Police Force, and Rapid Action Force sustained serious injuries.
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00:04Families of Assaulted Corps Recount Horror
00:30Blood-soaked Uniforms and Broken Helmets
00:47Stones Felted, Shoes Hurled, Vehicles Vandalized
01:07Cops, Families Appeal for Justice
01:11I am a student and I know that my father is a police officer.
01:17He will not hurt any student. He will care for a student.
01:22And my father didn't deserve this.
01:26Was Delhi Police Deliberately Targeted?
01:33When politicians are calling the police criminals
01:37to protect that parliament,
01:40my father has so many serious injuries.
01:45Top Focus on India First
01:52Good evening. You are watching India First. I am Gaurav Savant.
01:56Families of close to 200 police personnel have said
02:00enough is enough on political parties
02:03trying to tar their loved ones in uniform
02:05with this one brush saying that the security forces are evil
02:10and that security forces deliberately targeted students.
02:14The families have spoken out against the assault
02:17that the police personnel were in the line of,
02:21they were in the line of fire.
02:23The children, the wives of police personnel,
02:26those police personnel who put them in harm's way,
02:30the families are saying at least here are us two.
02:33There are always two sides of a story.
02:36Families of cops are recounting how protesters unleashed brutal violence
02:42on those in uniform, men and women.
02:45Remember, there are more than 200 police personnel who are injured.
02:49Some had to be hospitalized.
02:51They have critical head injuries.
02:52And they've shared videos from the 20th of July.
02:56The so-called peace march.
02:59Peaceful protest.
03:00To show how elements had infiltrated this protest
03:04and assaulted the police.
03:07Targeted the police.
03:08Not one, not two.
03:09There are many such videos
03:11where those faces can be identified
03:13and very clearly identified.
03:16Police were assaulted.
03:17Vehicles were vandalized.
03:19Public and private property was damaged.
03:22Stones were pelted.
03:23Heads were smashed.
03:24Is this a peaceful democratic protest?
03:29So there is this ecosystem in our country,
03:32including some very well-to-do people at one point of time
03:36who are now saying,
03:38so on one side there were peaceful protestors and students,
03:42on the other side there were policemen in riot gear.
03:45Look at these images.
03:47You know, it wasn't phoolwalon ki sair
03:49that you have 200 policemen with head injuries
03:52and other injuries who were targeted by this mob.
03:56Were flowers pelted at them?
03:59Is this stone pelting or is this flower pelting?
04:02Why are they trying to build this narrative, a fake narrative?
04:06The families asked, if these were peaceful protests,
04:10how are 200 policemen injured, some with serious head injuries?
04:13And for days the focus has remained on the police crackdown on students and protestors
04:18because for politicians perhaps men in uniform don't matter
04:22even if those men in uniform are protecting them and the temple of our democracy, our parliament.
04:27Not my words, words of the families of these police personnel.
04:31Tonight on India First, we get you their story.
04:35At least 118 Delhi police personnel were injured.
04:39In all, if you count the Rapid Action Force members of the CRPF,
04:43more than 200 police personnel were injured on this special broadcast.
04:48On India First, we get you all sides of the story.
04:51Without fear or favour, take a look.
04:59Attacked, humiliated and now under scrutiny.
05:04The Delhi police, RAF and CRPF have come under fire for their action against protestors
05:10during the students' protest.
05:12But more than 115 police personnel also sustained injuries during the clashes.
05:18Their families have now come forward to defend them and hit back at those questioning their role.
05:25They criticize the protestors who attack the police,
05:28political leaders who question their conduct and critics of the police action.
05:57Retired police officers also came out in support of Khaki.
06:01The police police, which was organized by the detectives.
06:01More friends we were used.
06:03You were used projectiles, we were used Beijers,
06:10Yet the police will use fire,
06:13and then after the police,
06:14After that you were sent to them,
06:16You were given it.
06:20It was sent to your police action against the rule of meth.
06:32In response, CJP alleged that anti-social elements planted by the BJP and RSS created the chaos.
07:04Rahul Gandhi, who has been raising the issue of excesses against students, appeared irked when India today asked him about
07:12the injured police personnel.
07:29When asked the question again, he chose not to respond.
07:34The issue of violence, the use of pellet guns and police action is now before the Supreme Court.
07:53The same issue is echoing in Parliament, with the opposition targeting Home Minister Ramit Shah over the action against the
08:01protesters.
08:02But with both protesters and police personnel suffering injuries, it's now clear that picking a side is not a black
08:10and white call.
08:12With Piyush Mishra, Bureau Report, India Today.
08:19On India First, we are getting you all sides of the story.
08:22When protesters were targeted, when students were targeted, we got you that story.
08:27When that pump-action anti-riot gun was used, we got you that story.
08:32Let me now tell you a little more about when the police were also targeted.
08:37And what were the circumstances, and there's an inquiry, when a pump-action gun, also known as the anti-riot
08:46shotgun,
08:46when that was used, that's that weapon that RAF officer is holding, what exactly is a pellet gun.
08:53Also known as the pump-action riot gun or a shotgun, these weapons, they fire cartridges that are actually packed
09:02with a number of very tiny metal pellets.
09:05In some instances, plastic pellets, depending on where you acquire it from, what is it used for.
09:10And these pellets, once you fire this weapon, it flies out like an umbrella in multiple directions and with amazing
09:22velocity.
09:24It depends where they are being used, how they are being used.
09:29After, I've seen them being used in Jammu and Kashmir to contain stone pelters.
09:34After the 2016 riots, the SOPs and stone pelting, the situation was changed.
09:40And SOPs were changed that they were no longer used direct firing at stone pelters or a mob.
09:46They were to be fired into the ground so that the main impact would be taken by the ground.
09:51And then a ricochet would deter pelters from moving forward in that context.
09:57These have been classified as less lethal crowd control weapons.
10:02They were introduced as an alternative to the use of live ammunition.
10:06And why were they introduced?
10:07Remember, Jammu and Kashmir at one point of time, before the abrogation of Article 370, there was a cycle of
10:14violence.
10:162008, 2010, 2012, 2016, every couple of years, the stone pelters would come out.
10:23And security forces say it was almost like a well-oiled machine.
10:28People were paid, stones were arranged, truckloads of stones would come.
10:33And then there would be a cycle of violence initially when these non-lethal or less lethal weapons were not
10:39there for crowd control.
10:41As a last resort, police would open fire and lives would be lost.
10:45And you know, figures in some instances, a large number of lives were lost.
10:48Then this pump-action pellet gun was introduced.
10:51In India, these guns are used predominantly by anti-riot forces of the Central Reserve Police Force.
10:57Jammu and Kashmir police also has a number of these weapons.
11:00Their effective range, again, it depends on the weapon and the ammunition that is being used, maximum.
11:07Between 350 yards to maybe 500 yards, 375 meters in instances, 400 meters, max range.
11:16When are they used?
11:17Why are they used?
11:18What do rules say?
11:20According to guidelines, they are a last resort weapon.
11:24When the baton charge fails, when water cannons fail, when all other crowd control measures and mechanisms have failed.
11:32Pellet guns must actually be fired from a safe distance, aimed at the ground according to new SOPs,
11:40so that even injuries that are caused are not either life or major limb threatening.
11:45They shouldn't threaten somebody's eyes, if it's fired below the waist, and if somebody is running away from it,
11:51it could hurt you in the back or your legs, but wouldn't hurt your eyes.
11:55Often, using deflectors to ensure that the pellets do not directly get embedded into the body.
12:02The rules also make it very clear, only minimum deterrent force should be used while dealing with a violent crowd.
12:09Pellet-based crowd control measures have been used, actually, in several countries across the world.
12:16Increasingly, they're facing criticism.
12:19You know, Israel has used them, Bahrain has used them, Bangladesh has used them, Chile has used them, China has
12:26used them, Hong Kong has been used.
12:28Authorities have deployed them as a less lethal alternative to the use of live ammunition.
12:34But then it's sparked off a massive, a furious debate, and each time it is used, whether in Jammu and
12:40Kashmir, or in Delhi, or other parts,
12:43it does lead to a huge debate, should they be used, why are they used.
12:48Keep one thing in mind, ladies and gentlemen.
12:53Dissent is your right in a democracy.
12:56But is there a right to resort to violence?
13:00For example, is it a right to destroy property?
13:03Protest is a right.
13:05But is stone pelting included in the democratic right to protest?
13:11Is vandalizing public property or private property, destroying police vehicles, as you see in those images, police vehicles being destroyed?
13:19Or as you see in the images that I'm about to show you, an attempt being made to lynch men
13:25in uniform,
13:27lawfully discharging their duty.
13:28Is that a right to dissent?
13:31Is that a part of right to protest?
13:33And what comprises the legitimate use of force?
13:37At what stage are the police cleared to escalate to the use of less lethal weapons,
13:45like a pump-action pellet gun or a riot gun, instead of just a bait-and-charge or the use
13:51of water cannons?
13:52Do chili grenades actually work?
13:55Power shells.
13:55This was a recommendation post-2016, when the terrorist Burhanwani was killed in the valley.
14:01And is there merit in some saying that from a bait-and-charge and water cannon, if that fails, escalate
14:08to firing rubber bullets?
14:11If need be, real bullets to save your life in the lawful discharge of your duty, but not a pellet
14:17gun.
14:17That is also being said by some.
14:19On this debate, we'll get you all sides of the story.
14:22Police perspective, legal perspective, we're keeping the political perspective out of this particular debate.
14:28Joining me on this special broadcast is S.N. Srivastav.
14:31S.N. Srivastav is former Delhi Police Commissioner.
14:34He was also heading the anti-riot force in CRPF in Jammu and Kashmir.
14:40Sir, welcome.
14:41Yashow Vardhan Azad is former Special Director, Intelligence Bureau, and the petitioner of the case in Supreme Court.
14:46Jay Anand Dehad Rai is an advocate in the Supreme Court.
14:49Joins us for the legal perspective.
14:50And before I come to the police officers,
14:52Jay, from a legal perspective,
14:54was the use of pump-action pellet gun a violation of the law?
15:00Hi, Gaurav.
15:01Good evening.
15:02In one word, in one phrase, not at all.
15:05And I think the Honorable Supreme Court in yesterday's hearing has made it absolutely clear.
15:10They have explained that in exceptional circumstances,
15:14if the crowd is going out of control,
15:17if it is absolutely expedient to control the crowd and to ensure that a riot does not ensue
15:22and that things don't become worse so that there's no further loss of life,
15:26the Supreme Court has said that the rules do not prohibit the police from using riot control mechanisms
15:31such as pellet action and riot control guns and pellet guns.
15:35And even for that, there is a system that has been laid out
15:38that you're supposed to put out,
15:39the police is supposed to put out a warning first to the crowd
15:42to ensure that the crowd disperses.
15:44But if the crowd does not disperse,
15:46and please remember,
15:47this is not some peaceful protest that the court was discussing.
15:50This is an unlawful assembly, Gaurav.
15:51So, by the very definition of it,
15:54the collection and congregation of individuals there is seen to be unlawful
15:58and a threat to public peace and security.
16:01It is only in those exceptional circumstances
16:03that the court has said that you may use these pellet guns.
16:06Now, just one more quick fact.
16:09The DCP, and this was excellent reporting done by your channel as well,
16:13the DCP who has come out and has admitted
16:16that yes, he authorized the pellet guns to be used,
16:19I was looking at those records also, Gaurav,
16:22and it turns out that it has only been used twice.
16:24It was only two rounds that were fired.
16:27So, considering that you had an extremely large, violent, marauding crowd there,
16:32and we've seen you very rightly pointed out before this segment began,
16:35how one police officer, a man in uniform,
16:39was almost lynched to death by this group that, you know, attacked him.
16:43So, under those extreme circumstances,
16:46I think Delhi police deserves more than a pat on its back.
16:49Some medals need to be given to these officers
16:51for the amount of restraint and patience that they've shown.
16:54In any other country, Gaurav, they would have taken out their guns, I'm sure,
16:58in the United States for sure.
16:59If you attack a man of law enforcement,
17:02a person from law enforcement,
17:03we know what consequences ensue.
17:07So, I think the Delhi police has been fantastic.
17:09I want our viewers to look at these visuals.
17:11I want you to look at these visuals.
17:13Policemen are running to save their lives.
17:16Yashavardhan Azad, as a former special director of the Intelligence Bureau,
17:20as a former police officer, you've worn this uniform.
17:22And when you look at these images,
17:25men in uniform are running away.
17:27They're falling to the ground.
17:28They're being punched.
17:29They're being kicked.
17:30They're being pelted with stones.
17:32Is it okay to see this happen on the streets of the national capital?
17:37When parliament is in session?
17:39No, certainly not.
17:40Who's saying that this is right?
17:42In fact, they should be punished.
17:43They should be brought to book.
17:45They should have been lathe charged.
17:46And this is not happening for the first time.
17:49In Madhya Pradesh, when we were handling law and order,
17:53we had a simple lathe, bamboo shield,
17:56and a kantopa, which is called helmet,
17:58and every day we would be bleeding on the streets
18:00and fighting a pitched battle.
18:03So, this is nothing new.
18:04Police has to be prepared.
18:05Now, that particular day,
18:08they were overawed because their intelligence failed.
18:12My issue is separate.
18:13You see, we can't lump everything in one thing.
18:16I'm saying the use of pellet guns per se should be banned.
18:21The same countries the lawyer is talking about,
18:25they don't use multiple projectile systems.
18:29So, what should you do?
18:30If a lathe charge fails, if water cannon fails,
18:34if that gradient mechanism fails,
18:35what is the alternative, sir?
18:38You fire straight below the waist.
18:40At least you don't pinpoint.
18:42Fire what?
18:43Below the waist.
18:44Fire what?
18:45The real gun.
18:48A live bullet.
18:50Yes.
18:51Below the gun.
18:52Because this, you see, try and understand,
18:54there's a technical flaw with these guns.
18:58These guns, you have talked,
19:00you know, you know more than the ordinary man,
19:02because 216,
19:04SOP of the MHA was not let out,
19:06which is wrong.
19:07Everyone should know the SOP of the MHA.
19:10In parliament in 2018,
19:13the minister announced that,
19:14yes, it has not been bad.
19:16MHA has laid out an SOP,
19:18and that in this SOP,
19:20it is to be used as a second last resort.
19:22Three-day training has been given.
19:24My problem is that this,
19:26the trigger is in control,
19:28but the outcome is not in control,
19:30because there is a cloud burst of a shower of metals,
19:34which if you're trying to hit one man,
19:36it may hit the other man in the eye,
19:38and the other man in the very sensitive part,
19:41this is exactly what has happened.
19:43Sir, I just want to understand,
19:44is the other man also peacefully rampaging?
19:50I want to understand.
19:51So, the police have set up a barricade.
19:53There are prohibitory orders that are in place.
19:55It says, do not cross this line.
19:57There is a Lakshman Rekha.
19:59You cross that Lakshman Rekha,
20:01a pump-action pellet gun has a range.
20:03It has a range between 375 meters.
20:05Mr. SN Srivastava, you can guide me better.
20:07I have seen pump-action pellet guns in action in JNK over decades,
20:11and I have also seen real bullets being fired.
20:14So, what I want to understand is,
20:15why cross that Lakshman Rekha?
20:17Why cross that Lakshman Rekha?
20:19Peacefully protest,
20:21right to dissent,
20:22allows you to breach barricades
20:24and breach and pellet stones at police?
20:27You use your lattes.
20:29You go to man-to-man combat.
20:32In Madhya Pradesh, we never allowed fighting.
20:35Large mob, less policemen.
20:36Let me get SN Srivastava.
20:37And, you know, SN Srivastava,
20:38Sir, you've been former Delhi Police Commissioner.
20:41You've been the center's top man in JNK,
20:44handling CRPF at a very sensitive time,
20:47and I've covered those operations while you were there.
20:49I want to understand,
20:50why were pellet guns used?
20:52Are they effective?
20:53Should they be removed from the armory of the CAPFs?
21:00Let me put my point...
21:02Certainly not.
21:03Okay, let me just get Mr. Srivastava,
21:05I'm coming back to you, sir.
21:07I would like to say...
21:08Give me 30 seconds.
21:09Let me get Mr. SN Srivastava,
21:10I'm coming back to you.
21:11Okay.
21:13Go on, sir.
21:14Mr. Srivastava.
21:16Certainly not.
21:17And I would like to say this,
21:21by constantly talking about the pellet guns,
21:25we are pushing the narrative
21:26of that the police has used excessive force.
21:32Instead of the narrative being that
21:35how in a peaceful,
21:38so-called peaceful protest,
21:40so many anti-social elements had come,
21:44who had brought the anti-social elements,
21:47who created such a violence?
21:49Now, coming back to your question,
21:52I am certainly not in favor of the pellet guns,
21:56being banned.
21:58You have yourself said that initially for many days,
22:03the protest was peaceful.
22:05There was no police action.
22:07On 20th, when they wanted to march towards the parliament,
22:11the barricades were erected,
22:13and they were stopped from proceeding towards the parliament.
22:16And at that point of time,
22:19tear gas and other things were used.
22:22Even when they were trying to cross,
22:24lathe charge was also done.
22:26But despite that lathe charge and tear gas,
22:29they crossed over,
22:30they put the barricades aside,
22:32and they came on this side.
22:34Now, tell me,
22:35the first two stages are over.
22:38Then, the next stage is use the non-lethal weapons.
22:42And the non-lethal weapons are pellet guns,
22:46I mean, not in that particular order,
22:49rubber bullet,
22:50and also the plastic bullets.
22:53Now, even a rubber bullet,
22:55if it is shot from a short distance,
22:58it can kill the person.
23:00So, I mean, you know,
23:03it is very difficult for a person,
23:05by seeing certain videos,
23:07to justify or to say
23:09that pellet guns were not to be used.
23:11It is the person who is on the ground,
23:14who is controlling the crowd.
23:16He is the best person to decide
23:18whether pellet guns is to be used or not.
23:21And then go for the next step of firing.
23:25Okay.
23:25Mr. Yasuo Varda Nazar wants to respond to you.
23:27He disagrees with you.
23:29And that's why I did not want
23:29political leaders on this broadcast.
23:31I wanted experts to discuss this.
23:34I am showing that this debate
23:37must be put in the right perspective.
23:40Go on, sir.
23:41The issue whether the police used,
23:45you know, graded response
23:47is a different issue
23:49than what I am saying about pellet guns.
23:53Can SN tell me
23:55that at that stage,
23:58the pellet guns,
23:59whether they were used in CP,
24:01were the last resort
24:03and were they able to save those injuries?
24:06No.
24:07They inflicted those injuries.
24:09Do you know
24:10that after the use in 2010 and 2016,
24:15pellet guns have nowhere been used
24:17in the mainland?
24:19I am not saying
24:21there will be an inquiry
24:23to find out
24:24whether the pellet guns
24:25was used in the right year or wrong.
24:27There is no problem with that.
24:29I am saying
24:30police men were beaten up.
24:32What I am saying,
24:33the use of pellet guns
24:35per se is wrong.
24:36I used thousand rounds
24:39of rubber bullets
24:40in 1980 in Peer Gate,
24:41Kant.
24:42Okay.
24:42That's why
24:43at least you know
24:44where you are hitting.
24:46But the pellet guns
24:47technically are wrong
24:48and that's why
24:49the multi-projectile systems
24:51have been banned
24:52in all the democratic countries,
24:54same countries like USA,
24:56UK and anywhere.
24:58That's my point.
24:59Okay, Mr. Srivastava
24:59wants to respond to you
25:00that in a pellet gun,
25:02since hundreds of pellets go out,
25:04it could even hit an innocent man
25:06is what Mr. Azad says,
25:08but please respond, sir.
25:12Mr. Srivastava.
25:13With due respect,
25:15times change.
25:17With due respect,
25:18the times change
25:19and to say that
25:21something which was used
25:23at one point of time
25:24is equally valid now,
25:29the situations change.
25:30So, I would once again emphasize
25:32that the use of pellet guns,
25:36whether it was right or wrong,
25:38it should be left to the inquiry
25:39and the person who has used it,
25:42he should say
25:44why he had used such a thing.
25:47Yes.
25:47Okay.
25:48Now, you see,
25:49you have already told
25:52that large number of policemen
25:55were injured.
25:56In fact,
25:57I did not get
25:59a real figure
26:01from the police,
26:02but then
26:02I checked the internet
26:03and we found
26:06that 250 policemen
26:07were injured.
26:10Though the report says
26:11that 60 to 65
26:14protesters were injured,
26:16but the figure may go up.
26:18You yourself mentioned
26:20that the policemen
26:21were put on ground
26:23and they were being bashed,
26:25you know,
26:26I mean,
26:26as if they are going to be killed.
26:28Did you see a reverse thing
26:30that a policeman
26:32jumping on a protester
26:33and trying to hit him
26:34on his face
26:36when the protester
26:38is on the ground?
26:39Nothing of that time happened.
26:41I don't think you answered
26:42You mentioned about
26:42the vehicle being vandalized.
26:44Okay.
26:45I agree with all that.
26:47Let me answer.
26:48So,
26:51with such a violence,
26:54let the person
26:55on the ground
26:58decide
26:58and let him say
26:59why he used
27:01such a thing.
27:02It's his life and limb.
27:03It's his life and limb.
27:05He has been impaired.
27:06He is impaired
27:08to decide
27:08whether he should use it
27:09or not use it
27:10and only an inquiry
27:11can reveal.
27:12But there is a narrative
27:12that is being built
27:13and I have seen
27:14this narrative
27:14being built
27:15over years.
27:162010, 2012, 2016
27:18whatever terrorists may do
27:20whatever stolen belters will do
27:21that is buried under the carpet
27:23and just target security forces.
27:25I have reported that
27:26very extensively
27:26but Jai Jai
27:27you wanted to come in
27:28on
27:29you know
27:30Mr. Azad
27:31raising a very pertinent point.
27:32I want to
27:33just complete.
27:35Okay.
27:36Okay.
27:36Go on sir.
27:37Mr. Srivastav
27:37complete your point
27:38before I bring in Jai.
27:39I want to
27:40add something.
27:42Okay.
27:43Now
27:44the person
27:45the police officer
27:46on the ground
27:48what is his apprehension?
27:50He gets a right
27:51to private defense.
27:53Section 96
27:5597
27:56of
27:58IPC
27:58I don't remember
27:59what is the section
28:00in the BNS
28:01and also
28:02section
28:04106
28:04and 107
28:05they say
28:07that the person
28:07it is the apprehension
28:08of the person
28:09who is being hit.
28:11I mean
28:12the person
28:12who is lying
28:13on the ground
28:14or
28:14if somebody
28:15who is watching
28:15he sees that
28:17a person
28:18is being hammered
28:19it is his decision
28:21it is his apprehension
28:23and the force
28:24that he uses
28:25depends upon
28:26the apprehension
28:26that he has.
28:27Fair enough.
28:28Very valid point.
28:29Before I bring in
28:30Mr. Yasho Vardhan Azad
28:31Jai
28:32the point
28:32Mr. Yasho Vardhan Azad
28:34says
28:34that
28:34you know
28:35pinpoint
28:36target the man
28:37who is pelting a stone
28:38when you fire a pellet gun
28:39you
28:39hundreds of
28:41pellets come out
28:42it could hit
28:43an innocent person
28:44too.
28:46Gaurav
28:46with great respect
28:47to Mr. Azad
28:48I cannot pretend
28:49to have even
28:491% of the
28:51field
28:51you know
28:52experience
28:53and operational
28:54knowledge
28:54that he has
28:54he has got
28:55tremendous experience
28:56I mean
28:56he has been
28:56a very very
28:57distinguished policeman
28:58and we all
28:59thank him
28:59for his service
29:00but you know
29:00as a lay person
29:01and in terms of
29:02I understand
29:03at least what
29:03the law
29:04says on this
29:05and the legal
29:05standard that
29:06has been established
29:07here Gaurav
29:07is very clear
29:08it is that
29:09there has to be
29:10a graded response
29:11and it has to be
29:12proportionate
29:13so to what
29:14you said
29:14and to what
29:15Mr. Srivastav
29:15said very rightly
29:16according to me
29:17that if the
29:18policemen there
29:19were outnumbered
29:19let's say
29:201 is to 10
29:21in that situation
29:22you need
29:23perhaps you need
29:24according to me
29:25and that is what
29:26the law also allows
29:27you need a weapon
29:28that can perhaps
29:29deter multiple
29:30individuals at the
29:31same time
29:31and can address
29:32multiple individuals
29:34who are coming at you
29:35so it also
29:36perhaps has a
29:36deterrent effect
29:37it has a
29:38psychological effect
29:39now in so far
29:40as the rubber
29:40bullet idea
29:41that is being
29:41suggested
29:42again I mean
29:42I am no
29:44police officer
29:45or neither have
29:46I served in
29:46the armed forces
29:47but those
29:48rubber bullets
29:49those individual
29:50projectiles
29:50may not be
29:51sufficient
29:51to deter
29:52a large crowd
29:53the whole idea
29:54why we call it
29:55a riot gun
29:56is because
29:57multiple projectiles
29:58come out
29:58and if you have
29:59a marauding group
30:00coming at you
30:00suppose let's say
30:01for a moment
30:02Gaurav
30:02that parliament
30:03was stormed
30:04then I mean
30:05would we be having
30:06this debate today
30:06that whether we
30:07should have used
30:08you know a weapon
30:09that would have
30:09been more effective
30:10in pushing back
30:11the crowd
30:11Mr. Yasuo Ardhan Azad
30:13on that point
30:14you know
30:15vehicles being damaged
30:16or vandalized
30:17public and private
30:18property being vandalized
30:19should that
30:20be legitimized
30:21or should that
30:22be accepted
30:22as a legitimate
30:23form of
30:24of protest
30:25or
30:25is there merit
30:26that the police
30:27should just draw
30:28draw a barricade
30:29you cross this
30:31barricade
30:31you are in the
30:32line of fire
30:33you know
30:33they should be
30:34hammered out of
30:35shape
30:35I mean I'm
30:36not you know
30:37SN is talking
30:38something totally
30:39different from
30:40what I'm saying
30:41what SN is saying
30:42or Jai is saying
30:43I agree
30:44those criminals
30:45during our times
30:46we used to bash
30:47the hell out of
30:47them
30:49with a lathe
30:50but with a lathe
30:51charge
30:51but a lathe charge
30:52has failed
30:53that's the point
30:54they are trying
30:55to make
30:58it's your failure
30:59then you can't
31:00use this gun
31:02which has
31:03no you can't
31:04use this
31:04your presumption
31:05listen to me
31:06listen to me
31:07please
31:08otherwise
31:09why don't you
31:10use lathe
31:11with nails
31:11let me
31:13let me respond
31:13allow me to
31:15respond
31:15with great
31:16respect
31:16I have not
31:17even completed
31:18my point
31:18yet
31:18I agree with
31:23you Jai
31:23what you are
31:24saying
31:24what I am
31:25saying is
31:26if you want
31:26effectivity
31:27will you have
31:28nails on the
31:28lathe
31:29no
31:29no sir
31:30I'd like to
31:31respond to that
31:32once you are
31:32done I'd like
31:32to respond to
31:33that
31:35with again
31:36you know I
31:36preface it by
31:37saying with
31:37great respect
31:38to Mr.
31:39Azad
31:39my only point
31:40is sir
31:40times have
31:41changed also
31:41in terms of
31:42the personal
31:43autonomy and
31:44safety of the
31:45policemen on
31:45the ground
31:46so what we
31:47understand from
31:47that is and
31:48we see it in
31:48much of the
31:49civilized world
31:50that sir the
31:50idea your
31:51idea sir with
31:52great respect
31:53that it should
31:53be man to
31:54man with a
31:55lathe
31:55according to
31:56me I don't
31:57think that is
31:57very feasible
31:58because it
31:59puts the
31:59life liberty
32:00I'm sorry the
32:01life and you
32:02know the
32:02safety of the
32:04policemen on
32:05the ground is
32:05put at risk
32:06you want him
32:07to come within
32:07close quarters
32:08of a marauding
32:09crowd so if I
32:10mean logically
32:11that should not
32:12happen there should
32:13be some distance
32:14between the
32:14policemen trying to
32:15control the
32:16crowd and
32:17sir just one
32:18question
32:19let me just ask
32:20one with great
32:21respect let me
32:22with humility let
32:22me ask you a
32:23question if the
32:24crowd if the
32:25marauding rioters
32:26in the crowd
32:27Azad sahab if
32:28they have some
32:29kind of weapon
32:30with them or
32:31you know let's
32:31say they have
32:32molotov cocktails
32:33or broken
32:34bottles or knives
32:36for that matter
32:36or let's say
32:37swords how do
32:39you how do we
32:39expect sir our
32:41policemen to
32:41safely safely take
32:43on those threats
32:44sir I would like to
32:45know this from you
32:46it's a very you
32:47know simple
32:47logical question can
32:49lathe be effective
32:50in that situation
32:51sir personally sir
32:52I don't think so
32:53fair enough
32:54you know molotov
32:56cocktails are used
32:57petrol bombs are
32:59used stonings are
33:01used in this case
33:03there was none
33:03there was nothing
33:05stones were there
33:06stones were there
33:07sir stones were
33:10used
33:10every protester
33:12the question is
33:14the pellets being
33:15used
33:16that's the issue
33:18you are changing
33:19the argument
33:20with great respect
33:20to you sir you
33:21are changing the
33:21argument
33:22these people
33:23you are changing
33:24the argument
33:25Jay I am saying
33:26why weren't the
33:26quarter cannons used
33:28they should also
33:29also have been
33:31used sir
33:31in nine years
33:32in nine years
33:34things have to
33:35change
33:35technology has to
33:37develop
33:37why did the
33:38expert committee
33:39look at the
33:40other non-lethal
33:41weapons for which
33:42even Rajnath
33:43Singhji had ordered
33:44the purchase
33:45permit me to
33:46give you some
33:47details
33:48no no sir
33:50Mr. SN Srivastav
33:51was then ADGP
33:52if I remember
33:52correctly of
33:53CRPF
33:54the acoustic
33:55acoustic radars
33:56or acoustic guns
33:57were an absolute
33:58disaster in
33:59Kashmir
34:00you know when
34:01the acoustic
34:02deterrent
34:02mechanism was
34:03used in
34:04Kashmir
34:04people were
34:05laughing at
34:06it and we
34:06saw it and
34:06we reported
34:07it on India
34:07today
34:08chili grenades
34:09Mr. Srivastav
34:10why power
34:11shells
34:11chili grenades
34:12tear gas
34:12shells
34:13why aren't
34:13they effective
34:14in your view
34:19we have to
34:21experiment about
34:22the chili
34:22grenade
34:23I don't think
34:25such a chili
34:26grenade is there
34:27in our armory
34:28and the acoustic
34:31also can be
34:33tried but one
34:35thing I would
34:37like to say
34:37that by
34:38constantly
34:39discussing the
34:41pellet guns and
34:42etc etc we
34:44are changing
34:46the we are
34:47pursuing the
34:47narrative of
34:49use of
34:50excessive force
34:51let us also
34:52discuss about
34:53how so many
34:55people the
34:56anti-shooter
34:56elements came
34:57I will tell you
34:58a very interesting
34:59thing
34:59see narrative
35:01is very
35:01important
35:02way back
35:03in 2020
35:05when the
35:06northeast
35:07Delhi riots
35:08took place
35:09and when
35:1053 people
35:11had been
35:12they were
35:14killed
35:14and 400
35:16more than
35:16400 were
35:17injured
35:17what
35:18I cannot
35:19tell you
35:20the source
35:20what was
35:22told
35:22put the
35:23blame on
35:23the police
35:25so this
35:26is very
35:27quite fashionable
35:27to put the
35:28blame on
35:29the police
35:29for either
35:30using excessive
35:31force or
35:32using lesser
35:33force
35:34so here
35:35also the
35:36blame is
35:36being put
35:37on the
35:37police
35:37we should
35:38as the
35:39responsible
35:40citizens
35:40we should
35:41also try
35:42to find
35:43out how
35:44the gunda
35:45elements
35:45the anti-social
35:46elements
35:47had infiltrated
35:48this
35:48who brought
35:49them
35:50that was
35:50the failure
35:51of the
35:52police
35:52and I
35:52covered
35:522020
35:53Delhi
35:53riots
35:53and Tahir
35:54Hussain
35:54has just
35:55been
35:55sentenced
35:55to a
35:56life in
35:56prison
35:57for the
35:58murder
35:58of that
35:58intelligence
35:59bureau
35:59officer
35:59Ankit
36:00Sharma
36:00and five
36:01other
36:01convicts
36:02have also
36:02been
36:02sentenced
36:02to a
36:03life in
36:03prison
36:03but this
36:04too is
36:05a failure
36:05of the
36:05police
36:06so many
36:06anti-national
36:07elements
36:07or anti-social
36:08elements
36:08infiltrating into
36:09the crowd
36:10and pelting
36:11stones
36:12police
36:12their intelligence
36:13system
36:13seems to have
36:14collapsed
36:14both in terms
36:15of numbers
36:16of people
36:17who will
36:17assemble
36:17for the
36:19protests
36:19and failure
36:20to weed out
36:21such elements
36:22but Mr.
36:22Razad
36:22the last
36:2330 seconds
36:24I have on
36:24this part
36:24of the show
36:25I want to
36:25understand from
36:26you
36:26you are
36:27advocating
36:27the use
36:28of real
36:29bullets
36:30against stone
36:31pelters
36:31and not
36:32pellet guns
36:33am I to
36:33understand that
36:35I am saying
36:36there should be
36:37a ban
36:37per se
36:38on the use
36:39of pellet guns
36:40because there is
36:41no control
36:41over the
36:42outcome
36:43and the
36:43outcome
36:44has more
36:45disadvantage
36:45than the
36:46advantage
36:47you are
36:47trying to
36:48seek
36:48now that
36:49is a
36:49separate
36:49issue
36:50regarding
36:50the use
36:51of
36:51police
36:53of
36:54whether
36:55it was
36:55barbarity
36:56or not
36:57I totally
36:57believe
36:58that all
36:58the criminals
36:59should be
37:00prosecuted
37:01and all
37:02the unprofessional
37:03acts of the
37:03police
37:04should also
37:05be checked
37:05and that's
37:06why we need
37:06a judicial
37:07inquiry
37:07nobody is
37:09blaming
37:09the police
37:10nobody is
37:11here trying
37:11to put
37:12allegations
37:13against the
37:14police
37:14there was
37:15tremendous
37:15violence
37:16against the
37:16police
37:17and even
37:18the Supreme
37:18Court
37:18has said
37:19that the
37:20prosecution
37:20should be
37:21done of
37:21those criminal
37:22elements
37:22who were
37:23involved
37:24in attacks
37:24and public
37:25damage
37:25of property
37:26is there
37:27a way
37:28and the
37:28last 30
37:28seconds
37:29Jai
37:29that police
37:30should draw
37:31a line
37:31a Lakshman
37:32Rekha
37:33you cross
37:34that Lakshman
37:34Rekha
37:35whatever be
37:36your cause
37:37whatever be
37:37the reason
37:38for your
37:38protest
37:38you cross
37:39that Lakshman
37:40Rekha
37:40you're in
37:41the line
37:41of fire
37:41of a pellet
37:42gun
37:42400 yards
37:43if that's
37:44the limit
37:44then you
37:45stay out
37:45of that
37:45400 yard
37:46range
37:46Jai
37:47Gaurav
37:48in a lighter
37:49way
37:49I think
37:49I'm very
37:50happy to see
37:51that I
37:51think we
37:52have turned
37:53Mr.
37:53Azad around
37:54and I think
37:55he has
37:55finally come
37:56around to
37:56agreeing with
37:57what we
37:57were saying
37:57right in
37:58the beginning
37:58that the
38:00police should
38:01not be
38:02vilified and
38:03it is in
38:03fact we
38:04must stand
38:04by our
38:05police
38:05and as
38:07Mr.
38:08Srivastav
38:08says very
38:09rightly
38:09that if
38:10the policeman
38:11on the
38:11ground
38:11you have
38:12to trust
38:12his judgment
38:13he knows
38:14best exactly
38:15what's going
38:15on and I
38:15also agree
38:16with him
38:17when he
38:17says that
38:17there is a
38:19propaganda
38:20war here
38:21that is
38:21going on
38:22that is the
38:23subtext
38:23it's very
38:24clear and I
38:25think we
38:25need to push
38:25back on this
38:26absolutely
38:27false
38:27narrative
38:28that there
38:28has been
38:29police
38:29excessive
38:30force used
38:31by the
38:31police
38:31I don't
38:32think the
38:32evidence
38:32supports such
38:33view at
38:34all I
38:34think the
38:34Delhi police
38:35has acted
38:35perfectly
38:36and this
38:37was a
38:38very sensitive
38:39area in
38:39Delhi Gaurab
38:40it had to
38:41be protected
38:41parliament
38:42all the
38:42institutions
38:43are right
38:43there
38:44it had
38:44to be
38:45protected
38:45is a
38:47Lakshman
38:47Rekha
38:47needed
38:48Mr.
38:48Srivastav
38:49Lakshman
38:50Rekha
38:50draw that
38:50line
38:51no
38:51protester
38:52beyond that
38:52point
38:53whatever
38:53be the
38:54reason
38:54protest
38:54peacefully
38:55cross
38:55the
38:55Lakshman
38:56Rekha
38:56you're in
38:57the line
38:57of fire
38:57whether it's
38:58pellet gun
38:58or rubber
38:59bullets
38:59or any
39:00power
39:00chili
39:01grenades
39:06Gaurav
39:09go on
39:09sir
39:13okay
39:14I seem
39:14to have
39:14lost that
39:15link
39:1530 seconds
39:16you know
39:19yeah
39:20we
39:20we had
39:21we have
39:22you know
39:23seen Delhi
39:23you also
39:24have been
39:25here for
39:26long time
39:26Delhi police
39:28is never
39:29you know
39:30prone to
39:31use force
39:33I mean
39:34because we
39:34are living
39:35in such
39:36a you know
39:37area
39:37where we
39:38try to
39:39do as
39:39far as
39:40possible
39:41you know
39:42manage the
39:43crowd
39:43peacefully
39:44okay
39:44and this
39:45is a daily
39:45thing
39:46but this
39:47was an
39:48this was
39:49a different
39:49situation
39:50and getting
39:52intelligence
39:52about so
39:53many anti
39:54social
39:54elements
39:55coming
39:55you if
39:57you feel
39:58that you
39:58know in
39:59this digital
39:59media where
40:00you can you
40:01know through
40:01various means
40:02you know digitally
40:03you can
40:03call people
40:05I don't
40:06think there
40:07is a
40:08it's easy
40:09for police
40:10to get
40:11intelligence
40:11about it
40:12sir it
40:13should be
40:13easier in a
40:14digital
40:14environment
40:15perhaps police
40:15should be
40:16more on the
40:16streets
40:16to gather
40:18to gather
40:19no police
40:19should not
40:20be demoralized
40:20but the
40:21police has
40:21also in
40:21the past
40:22used excessive
40:23force
40:23including resort
40:24to shooting
40:25innocent people
40:25in the heart
40:26of the national
40:26capital
40:26which we also
40:28reported in
40:28near Connaught
40:29place
40:29you and I
40:30were there
40:30in Delhi
40:31when innocent
40:31businessmen
40:32were targeted
40:33in the heart
40:34of the capital
40:34and called
40:35terrorists
40:35but that's
40:36a separate
40:36story
40:37those are
40:39absolutely
40:42we'll track
40:42that story
40:43very closely
40:43but on this
40:44shot
40:44perhaps it's
40:45time for a
40:45Laxman Rekha
40:46to be created
40:47cross that
40:48Laxman Rekha
40:48and you're in
40:49the line of fire
40:49I want to thank
40:50all my guests
40:50for being a part
40:51of this show
40:51a quick breaking
40:53news that's coming
40:53in
40:54two decades
40:54after she was
40:55hounded out of
40:56Kolkata
40:56by fundamentalist
40:58groups over her
40:58controversial
40:59memoir
41:00exiled
41:01Bangladesh author
41:02Tasleema Nasreen
41:02has returned
41:04to Kolkata
41:05she returned
41:05to the city
41:06on Friday
41:08city of joy
41:09which she once
41:10called home
41:11watch that image
41:12dressed in
41:13traditional Bengali
41:14white sari
41:15with a traditional
41:15red border
41:16Tasleema Nasreen
41:17was seen
41:17flashing a big
41:19smile as she
41:19landed in
41:20Kolkata
41:20and she spoke
41:21exclusively
41:21to India
41:22today
41:22she actually
41:23lashed out
41:23at former
41:24chief minister
41:24Mamata Banerji's
41:25government for
41:26keeping her
41:27out of
41:28her home for
41:29so long
41:29and she
41:31a
41:31a
41:32a
41:42a
41:44a
41:44a
41:44a
41:46a
41:47a
41:47a
41:47a
41:48a
42:14Thank you very much.
42:46Thank you very much.
42:48Thank you very much.
43:31Thank you very much.
47:35in a uniformed president now that's a very interesting point that you make and i want to
47:39bring in general panday on this general panday you know the multiple fires that we see across
47:44pakistan is this a deliberate attempt because we heard pakistan's interior minister mohsan
47:48nakvi also say that this that pakistan system has collapsed is this deliberately being encouraged
47:54so that asim muneer can take over as a military dictator and say i'm the president sadra riasat
48:00of pakistan and the field marshal and the army chief no i think when mohsan nakvi says that 70
48:06years of he has made very clear reference is about seven decades worth of structural failure
48:11of the entire system uh has resulted in today's uh situation so i think uh i will not like to
48:18club the two uh intent while the intention of asimony was always evident uh from uh since
48:24the time he took over as a chief the manipulation and shenanigans which he did was eventually
48:29to take over as a top leader of country but i think he's smart enough to understand that
48:34he needs to have face in front uh political face so that people don't get uh truly after
48:40him so while he remains a leader but he certainly has a political face uh to continue to engage
48:46and he uh please understand the world over the foreign affairs stuff is all being engaged through
48:52asim muneer it is not through shabha sharif or uh their external affairs uh foreign minister
48:57or foreign secretary it is asim muneer who's controlling and his uh uh his uh people are
49:03managing the foreign affairs aspect but the issue which we bring about today of pojk giggle
49:09bhaktistan and uh i will totally go with uh adil what he says is that uh they have opened
49:15up themselves cans of warm and uh it was a very simple close and shut uh case of jac 56
49:22days back
49:23or about 60 days back when they put forth very simple uh requirements they needed three f's food
49:30fuel and certain degree of freedom to select their own people uh rightly so while the uh the possibility
49:37of selecting their own people was still not uh uh given but the way the pakistani punjabi
49:44uh controlled the the huge ego message system which is there they don't care about baloches and
49:51pashtuns and uh kashmiris and they are more interested in the land and property of uh pojk
49:57or balochistan no but do they also not care about kashmiris because there are so many kashmiris in
50:02the armed forces uh you know major adil i i want to quickly uh get uh quick responses from all
50:08our
50:08guests uh major adil they don't care about kashmiris either there are a large number of kashmiris in
50:12the armed forces there was a report that some general or his relatives have also been injured
50:18there is a serious rift within the military right now senior army officers and young officers alike
50:25are from the you know kashmir uh part of pakistan pakistan administered kashmir including the
50:31director general military intelligence major general wajit aziz and certain corps commanders
50:36are also kashmiris and they've got serious reservations about this policy but the problem
50:42again gaurav is that the the policy as such is to show to the foreign paymasters that the military
50:49is in control of the streets of pakistan and pakistan administered areas because if they
50:56cannot prove it to the international community or the so-called international establishment that it is
51:02the military which is in control of the streets well they cannot be funded for their so you know
51:07political projects and mind you this presidential form of governance is nothing new there has been a
51:14flirtation with this idea for quite a number of years but the pakistani military has already
51:19tried this and tested this and they have already failed it is not a new idea but it was an
51:25absolute
51:25disaster with pervez musharraf but general is the pakistan army in control of the country or
51:31there are some who say pakistan may not be on the verge of breaking up it's not the 71 like
51:36situation
51:36but is it approaching that on multiple fronts whether it's baluchistan khyber pakhtoonkhoa or pojk now
51:43not technically yes it's on the verge the only problem is that these independent entities today
51:49don't have the kind of foreign enablement which is required because eventually for a breakaway uh
51:55entity you require certain degree of foreign support which is uh mandatory which in this case uh for uh
52:01assay munir the positive thing is that he's been able to stay connected to his bosses and uh us and
52:07the intelligences that kind of a support is still not come the moment uh the eyes of uh trump rolls
52:14through some other direction this will become a huge possibility but yes today there is just no
52:20control of pakistani military what is the latest report coming in that i think raja is that also
52:25you're reading that pakistan may not be in the 1971 situation but it's approaching that situation
52:31especially whether you talk about baluchistan uh uh khyber pakhtoonkhoa and pojk
52:36i got of the most critical factor in this game are the timings and i would agree with general pande
52:43sir
52:43that uh pakistan's military leader asim munir's personal you know repute and his investment in
52:51president trump's personal family enterprises have earned them a sort of leverage at the white house but
52:57the timing is very important in the midterm elections in november if president trump loses both the
53:04houses if the republicans loses both the houses then so would the leverage would be lost by asim munir and
53:10it is a make or break phase for the pakistani military dictator and it will definitely decide
53:17what is going to be the future direction of pakistan whether it will eventually and completely fall into
53:24the chinese lap or uh there will be still something else you know and there are definitely fisher perist
53:31tendencies but obviously it is not a 1971 like situation but it is fast approaching that as in
53:39that kind of a scenario and i think the november midterms in the u.s are critically important so august
53:45is just starting in the last 30 seconds i have uh general pande is pakistan on an easier wicket
53:52on the radcliffe line along the lc compared to uh the situation on on the durand line uh vis-a
53:59-vis afghanistan
54:01yeah so the threat which asim munir and his uh uh proteges and all have been talking about hitting
54:07india from the eastern side i think their western side has got hit uh the world should recognize today
54:13that india remains responsible power in the region while uh there are enough opportunities to actually
54:19stir more trouble for pakistan the political and security establishment of india has taken a
54:26call to stay away from the internal matters of pakistan which uh technically in case of pojk is
54:32not internal is again remains ours but that's our territory our people oh absolutely i've run out of
54:39time on this part of the show remember from the ramparts of the red fort prime minister narendra
54:42modhi had said that brothers and sisters from baluchistan and other parts of pakistan
54:46had reached out to him and that's several years ago there's trouble in pakistan occupied jammu and
54:51kashmir which is indian territory in illegal occupation of pakistan including gilgit and baltistan so
54:57that's the story we'll be tracking very closely major raja angel pande as always many thanks for joining me
55:02you
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