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00:00:00You'd rather win than not win?
00:00:01But I don't know if the Yankees are on sturdy footing right now.
00:00:04Their offense is still, like, looking around, when is Judge coming back?
00:00:08We've made it to the All-Star break.
00:00:11John's in Philly.
00:00:11I'm in New York.
00:00:13And Steve Phillips is our guest this week.
00:00:15Yeah, it should be interesting to talk to Steve.
00:00:17He was the Mets GM, so I want to ask him what the Mets should do.
00:00:21We have our own ideas, but he's got some interesting thoughts.
00:00:25So I think it'll be nice to talk to Steve.
00:00:27Yeah, he had to both buy and sell as the Mets GM along the way.
00:00:30So he has experience doing that, obviously, a while ago.
00:00:33But he's very fresh on the game.
00:00:34We'll ask him all the stuff.
00:00:35We'll ask him his opinion on the Yankees.
00:00:37John and I will be talking a lot about where the Yankees and Mets have been so far for a
00:00:43half
00:00:44and where they might be going for the second half.
00:00:46We'll play hit and error at the end if you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and
00:00:50John Hayden.
00:00:54John, we made it.
00:00:55A first half of baseball.
00:00:56It's not really a first half.
00:00:57I always think that when people do first half statistics, it never makes sense to me
00:01:01because sometimes it's 90 games, sometimes it's 95.
00:01:04It's never 81.
00:01:06We should have like, what did you do for the first 81?
00:01:08What did you do for the second 81?
00:01:10But we are at the All-Star break.
00:01:12John is coming to us.
00:01:12He's in Philly.
00:01:13I'm home.
00:01:15Took the break for the break.
00:01:18John, why don't we start with the bad news in New York?
00:01:21I was at the Met game yesterday.
00:01:23They fell to 17 games under .500.
00:01:27It is their low point of the season as if there could be new low points for this team.
00:01:32It feels like one continuous low point.
00:01:34Obviously, bringing in Andy Green, they're 6-10.
00:01:38Things haven't gotten better.
00:01:41They're a disaster.
00:01:43And I just wonder, you and I both spent a lot of time in Port St. Lucie in spring training.
00:01:48I think we both thought like the Mets, this team would, they had some explosive possibilities
00:01:53to be bad, but we didn't think they'd get to bad.
00:01:55And we certainly didn't think they'd get to 17 under .500 by the time you were in Philly
00:01:59for the All-Star break.
00:02:00You want to sum it up?
00:02:02Where do you think they're at?
00:02:03And what do you think it means moving forward?
00:02:05Yeah, I mean, it's a disaster.
00:02:07No question about that.
00:02:09I mean, we had Steve Cohen on.
00:02:10He said that David Stearns is staying.
00:02:12But, you know, if you really listen to the whole thing, you know he isn't thrilled.
00:02:16He said that he's failing, which, you know, is a nice way of saying that they are failing
00:02:21together.
00:02:22So it is not working.
00:02:24They are obviously giving David Stearns this year for sure, I would say, based on how I
00:02:30read the comments, you know, I know the fans are bloodthirsty.
00:02:34I get it.
00:02:35It's been two bad winters in a row.
00:02:38It was a bad trade deadline last year.
00:02:41They need a better trade deadline this year.
00:02:45They need to sell, obviously.
00:02:47They are terrible.
00:02:50I think if people listen to the show religiously, we had high hopes, but I think we both said
00:02:57that it could go either way.
00:02:58We felt that the Yankees were, you know, the Yankees win every year, at least have a winning
00:03:03record.
00:03:03So, you know, it wasn't a great prediction to say that they're going to be good.
00:03:08We thought the Mets could go either way.
00:03:09That said, in my predictions, I did have them winning the division.
00:03:13That's not too good.
00:03:14They're a very bad team.
00:03:16Soto was here alone at the All-Star game.
00:03:20That's the way it should be.
00:03:21If you want to look for another bright spot, I mean, it was probably Holmes was great until,
00:03:27unfortunately broke his, got his leg broken on a line drive.
00:03:31Weaver has been great as well, but he's a middle reliever.
00:03:34So they got one All-Star and that's all they deserved.
00:03:38It's bad.
00:03:39I mean, they got a long way to go and it's not going to be an easy fix.
00:03:43You know, we'll see what happens with the CBA, whether they can spend more or they're
00:03:47allowed to spend a lot, but there aren't great free agents who are hitters out there.
00:03:52Jazz Chisholm is arguably the best free agent hitter or offensive player out there.
00:03:59I mean, there are several in that kind of category.
00:04:01No Soto-like players or anybody close.
00:04:05So it's not going to be easy.
00:04:07So if Stearns gets an F for this year, he's going to need an A-plus to turn this around.
00:04:14Well, I'll say this is he was getting, what should bother the Mets and maybe this is better
00:04:21than no fans and maybe that's what they're heading towards in August and September is
00:04:25yesterday was a little bit Fenway Parky.
00:04:27There was a lot of cheers at the end of that game yesterday when Boston won, they invaded
00:04:32the stadium and anything that came from Mets fans, David Stearns should know he got an F
00:04:39in every way at the stadium yesterday.
00:04:43The fans are just, there's a lot of booing now, a lot of silence.
00:04:48And I did, I wrote this today, John, is to me, I went around the clubhouse yesterday to,
00:04:54you know, the obvious guys who you would think are veterans and asked the questions, why are
00:04:58you here?
00:04:59Like, why are you at that point, 16 under 500 and going to be selling in three weeks?
00:05:04And look, I heard a lot about injuries and working guys into a big, you know, like even
00:05:09Steve Cohen last week talked about, hey, you know, New York is different.
00:05:12And at some point I was like, okay, on June 24th, the Red Sox had the worst record in the
00:05:17American League.
00:05:18Boston has every pathology the Mets had, right?
00:05:21Like we talk about Lindor was out for a long time.
00:05:24The Red Sox have lost their top three shortstops.
00:05:27I mean, you might not like Isaiah Kainofalefa.
00:05:29He was number three.
00:05:30Marcelo Maio was number two.
00:05:31Trevor Story is number one.
00:05:32By the way, they've played almost a whole year without Roman Anthony, who they thought
00:05:35was going to be their best everyday player.
00:05:37And without Garrett Crochet, who finished, what, second or third for the Cy Young last
00:05:40year.
00:05:41Yeah, second.
00:05:41That much their pitching depth was really like Cutter Crawford and Patrick Sandoval and
00:05:47Johan Ovallato.
00:05:48Like, they're destroyed on it.
00:05:51John, you and I have spent a ton of time in Boston, as opposed to the Mets, where half the
00:05:55fans are probably a lot more than half the fans in New York are Yankee fans.
00:05:58In Boston, when they're going bad, the laser focus of hate on that franchise is huge.
00:06:04By the way, they changed their manager this year, and that was a much more collateral manager
00:06:10in Alex Cora than Carlos Mendoza.
00:06:12Their overly analytic front office and head of baseball operations, Craig Breslow, was getting
00:06:18it for being too analytic and too non-communicative and all that stuff in the way David starts.
00:06:23And you know, since June 24th, when they were a game or two worse than the Mets, they're
00:06:2816-2.
00:06:29They have the best record in the league, and they're back in it.
00:06:31And the Mets never had whatever that thing you would call, John, talent, temerity, fortitude,
00:06:38character, culture, to kind of have a run to fix this thing.
00:06:43In fact, it went the other way.
00:06:45Every time, it went the other way.
00:06:47And I honestly, John, you summed it up perfectly.
00:06:50For me, the problem is, I don't know how to fix that.
00:06:54It's going to be difficult.
00:06:55You know, I understand the players citing the injuries.
00:06:57They've had more injuries than probably most teams.
00:07:00But not Boston.
00:07:01Not Boston.
00:07:02And not Toronto, and not Kansas City, and not Houston.
00:07:07There are teams that have been more injuries.
00:07:08And if I do Judge Fried, Cole, and Rodon, and Grisham for one thing, I'm not sure even
00:07:15the Yankees.
00:07:16I get that excuse if you're in the clubhouse.
00:07:18But if you're running the team and you've spent $380 million, you should have depth.
00:07:23And they still don't really have a first baseman, right?
00:07:27I mean, this, you know, at the time, you know, we didn't, I guess we criticized, but
00:07:35I don't know that we killed them to the degree.
00:07:38The Alonzo idea of never making him an offer.
00:07:41I mean, you know, I get he's not an all-star.
00:07:44I didn't go off to his best start.
00:07:45But I mean, this guy plays every day, cares every pitch.
00:07:50You know, he's almost borderline crazy in how much he cares.
00:07:53And he's a, you know, borderline legend for the Mets.
00:07:57You let him go.
00:07:58You better get that right.
00:08:00You better win the next year.
00:08:01And you better have a first baseman.
00:08:03And they didn't have a first baseman.
00:08:04And they had Polanco, who they gave $20 million a year to.
00:08:08OK, the guy's a good hitter, went healthy.
00:08:10I get, you know, it's probably an overpay, but he's not a first baseman.
00:08:14And they still don't have a first baseman.
00:08:16So to me, that was the one move that really, really didn't work.
00:08:21Now, you know, we can go over all the guys they let go.
00:08:24McNeil's not playing well.
00:08:26Diaz hasn't done much.
00:08:28I mean, Nimmo is hitting the ball OK for Texas.
00:08:31And he's continuing to play every day.
00:08:33But they, letting go Alonzo was a huge mistake.
00:08:39And they didn't make up for it.
00:08:40And the guys they did bring in have been negatives to this point.
00:08:44So it's been a disaster.
00:08:47And there's no great excuse with the injury.
00:08:50There really isn't.
00:08:51Yeah.
00:08:51And look, John, the conceit going into the season was they had pitching depth and run
00:08:58prevention was going to work into that.
00:09:00And again, just the comparison to the Red Sox.
00:09:02I believe the Red Sox are third and fourth in ERA and third and fourth in outs above average
00:09:07defensively.
00:09:08The Mets were, I think, 17th in ERA and 26th or 27th in outs above average.
00:09:14Like it isn't even their theories of why they got away from the people they got.
00:09:20I think you and I could make a pretty good case individually for getting away from all the
00:09:26people they got away.
00:09:27I think we both appreciated covering Alonzo, who was an available guy and kind of a little
00:09:32goofy and fun to deal with.
00:09:34And certainly was a guy who was on the field, like all the things you'd like about accountability
00:09:38on the field, productive, things like that.
00:09:41But would I have wanted to give him a five-year contract?
00:09:43That would have been tough for me.
00:09:45That would have been tough.
00:09:46Like I could see the back end of Nimmo being worrisome for them.
00:09:49I could see, oh, well, I still don't understand Diaz, so I can't even make that one.
00:09:54And I understand getting McNeil out of the room.
00:09:56Like so individually, I understand.
00:09:58But the conceit was we're getting to something else.
00:10:01We're going to get to depth slash run prevention.
00:10:04And by doing that, we're going to be a different team, but a better, more whole team.
00:10:10And that has completely caved in.
00:10:12It's, to me, the biggest black mark on David Stearns this year is his vision hasn't come
00:10:18close to happening.
00:10:20It's cost a good man, Carlos Mendoza, his job.
00:10:23And it's put the team in a real where I thought, I think we said this last week, forgive me
00:10:29if
00:10:29I'm repeating myself.
00:10:30I thought the most interesting thing that Steve Cohen said, and he said a lot of interesting
00:10:34things with us, was about how worried he is about next season.
00:10:38No question about it.
00:10:39But, you know, and so I think like, that's why we don't have a great fix.
00:10:42We don't know how you're going to fix this now.
00:10:45And of course, we're going to entrust the fix to a guy who obviously had a bad offseason
00:10:50last year, but, and actually two bad offseasons in a row.
00:10:54But to think that you can bring in a guy who's never played third base, and Bichette's been
00:10:59a fine at third, but a guy who's never played third, a guy who's never played first, count
00:11:03on a rookie in the outfield.
00:11:04I do believe they were counting on one rookie, not two.
00:11:06Count on injury-prone guys.
00:11:09I mean, Robert is an all-time injury case, and they knew that going in.
00:11:13Remember how they treated him in spring training?
00:11:15They had him not play at the beginning.
00:11:18Then he was playing a couple innings on a backfield as a DH.
00:11:22And, you know, they really eased him into it.
00:11:24And it didn't help.
00:11:25And he's still not back.
00:11:27And, no pun intended, that apparently is his injury in the back.
00:11:31But injury-prone rookies, new positions.
00:11:36I mean, there were a lot of question marks for a team that spent $380 million.
00:11:41Yeah, you know, they're also interesting in that any team would line up for breaking in
00:11:46in one season.
00:11:47I'm going to count McClain as a break-in.
00:11:49And I know he's underperformed what we thought, but he's been, like if I said, just as a rookie
00:11:53year, he's been good.
00:11:54And I think Benjian, especially Ewing, have been really good.
00:11:57And if Thornton's last two starts or anything, he looked good.
00:12:01And yet you were at the Futures game yesterday.
00:12:04And Ryan Clifford was the only, you know, you talk about Soto being the only major league
00:12:08all-star.
00:12:10Clifford, because the top of the Mets farm system that wasn't stripped to bring to the
00:12:14major leagues, has done terrible.
00:12:15And by the way, so is Clifford.
00:12:17He's sitting under 200 and leading the International League in strikeout percentage.
00:12:20And I think that's why Steve Cohen is worried.
00:12:22It's like the best of what they have is here.
00:12:25So they don't even have like that move, like to get fans here in the second half of the
00:12:30season and be excited about some people.
00:12:32They've got to really try to fix some of these guys.
00:12:35John, can I flip it over to the other team?
00:12:36Let me just say, Andy Green last week did say to us that those things change.
00:12:43You know, it's very cyclical.
00:12:45And the Mets were the number one farm system, at least by some rankings, I don't know, eight
00:12:49months ago.
00:12:50And then they made the trade for Peralta, and they moved down to the number 10.
00:12:54Then they brought up Benj, and they brought up Ewing, and they were down further.
00:12:59And then some of the guys didn't do well, and they went down.
00:13:03Now, Tong can come back.
00:13:05Clifford can come back.
00:13:06You know, these guys are kids, and things change there.
00:13:10But we need a lot of things to change.
00:13:11So that's, you know, it's possible.
00:13:14But again, a lot of question marks.
00:13:17With the Yankees, I almost have a Jekyll and Hyde thought, and therefore, you know, throwback
00:13:22to you, which is, are the Yankees having a good year?
00:13:25On one hand, they have the second best record in the American League and the fourth best
00:13:29record in the sport.
00:13:30They have the number one run differential in the league.
00:13:35And they've done a lot of this without, in some combination, Cole, Rodon, Freed, and a
00:13:42lot of it without Judge, who obviously is super important.
00:13:46On the other hand, they're in second place to the Rays.
00:13:49It's, they're grossly underperforming their Pythagorean numbers, which suggests they should
00:13:54be about five or six games better than they are.
00:13:57If they were, they'd be leading the American League East and not in second place.
00:14:01They kind of reopened the door by playing badly recently.
00:14:04They reopened the door to teams like Boston.
00:14:06They played badly to Boston.
00:14:07It opened their door.
00:14:08They played badly against Detroit.
00:14:09It opened their door.
00:14:10They played badly against Minnesota.
00:14:11It opened their, they're like, a lot of teams they probably wanted to trade with.
00:14:14They opened their doors and said, no, you're still in it.
00:14:17Let us help you along.
00:14:18And so on one hand, they're the fourth best record in the major leagues and the second
00:14:23in the AL.
00:14:24And yet I feel like they've underperformed.
00:14:27Yeah, not great.
00:14:29I mean, overall, I'd say it's a C.
00:14:31I don't know whether we're hard graders or not, but, you know, look at it.
00:14:35I'm with you.
00:14:35I think it's a C.
00:14:37Yeah.
00:14:37I mean, the two teams spent $700 million and to combine, they're under 500.
00:14:41Now, most of that's obviously on the Mets.
00:14:43I can't really claim that's a Yankee thing, but it has not been a great season.
00:14:48Right.
00:14:48I mean, they're not near a 600 winning percentage.
00:14:50Well below that.
00:14:51They're below a team that spends nothing.
00:14:54I know they do a great job, that team that spends nothing, but they should not be below
00:14:58the Rays.
00:14:59I mean, last year they were below the Jays who had a great season.
00:15:02There's no reason to be below the Rays.
00:15:04That's not good.
00:15:06They're in the weaker league.
00:15:07They should have the best record in that league with the talent that they do have.
00:15:11They have spent the most money in their league.
00:15:14You know, the National League is much better than the American League, let's face facts.
00:15:18And it's nice they've scored a lot of runs, except for that stretch where they didn't
00:15:22score any runs.
00:15:24You know, more than they've given up anyway.
00:15:26Uh, and, uh, not a great season, not a great first half or first, what is it?
00:15:3290 games or whatever it is at this point.
00:15:34Not great.
00:15:35Yeah.
00:15:36You know, and again, John's doing the hard work, uh, this week he's in Philadelphia.
00:15:40You know, that would be a place where judges, uh, and he's not there.
00:15:44Uh, and I, I think we've reached a point where unbelievably the Dodgers provide more information
00:15:50about injuries to Shohei Ohtani, who essentially works for the CIA when he's not pitching and
00:15:55hitting for the Dodgers, uh, than the Yankees do about Aaron judge.
00:15:58And so I think whatever's happening in the next few days, John, where he's, uh, reportedly
00:16:04the Yankees told us getting more imaging done during the break is one of the most important
00:16:09parts of the Yankee season.
00:16:10To me, it's so clear that they're a basketball team in a lot of ways.
00:16:14You're not supposed to miss one player this much.
00:16:17Uh, and yet everything about the Yankees, both in performance and emotion goes, uh, badly,
00:16:23uh, when he's not around, uh, and not playing.
00:16:27And of course he's big enough to be a basketball player for this analogy.
00:16:31Uh, but I just think that of all the things that are happening in the all-star break, you
00:16:37know, the home run derby, the futures game yesterday, the actual game, the beginning
00:16:42of the trade deadline in the most serious way.
00:16:45I don't know that there's, I know there's nothing more important with the Yankees or
00:16:48in New York baseball than this imaging.
00:16:50Uh, I think it might be the most important issue in baseball because the Yankees can only
00:16:54get so far without him.
00:16:56Yeah.
00:16:57I, I mean, I don't know, I guess you could make a case for Ohtani as well.
00:17:01I mean, Ohtani is the face of the sport and it's a shame I'm here in Philly and nobody
00:17:05cares that I'm here.
00:17:06I think people care that judges in here and that Ohtani isn't here.
00:17:10And that's, that's a bad fortune.
00:17:12I'm not going to second guess their injuries.
00:17:14I mean, obviously we know that they're hurt.
00:17:17Uh, yeah, I mean, it's amazing.
00:17:19Uh, you know, you've documented it better than anybody.
00:17:22They are losing team every time the judge is not around and it shouldn't be that way.
00:17:27Now, of course, this time they've lost some other players as well, right?
00:17:31I mean, we don't have, uh, Rodon, uh, Stanton and Freed, uh, you know, but we're not going
00:17:37to give the Mets an injury excuse.
00:17:39Why give it to the Yankees, right?
00:17:40The Yankees have a higher, higher revenue base, uh, just because they spend less, uh,
00:17:45a little bit less than the Mets.
00:17:47I'm not giving it to them.
00:17:48Uh, you know, other teams have had more injuries as we've said, right?
00:17:52Toronto, Houston, Kansas city, more injuries.
00:17:55So, uh, no excuses here.
00:17:57Uh, they have not been great.
00:17:58They've been okay.
00:18:00They're in the playoff picture.
00:18:02Uh, they might save the season by being the one playoff team.
00:18:06Cause we know the Mets are not a playoff team at this point, but, uh, it has not been a
00:18:10great picture for the Yankees.
00:18:11You know, John, I'm not even sure that they're in a better, obviously it's better to have
00:18:17won the three games in Washington than not win the three games in Washington.
00:18:22But the reality is the one thing the Yankees do well, I think they lead the major leagues
00:18:26in ERA, uh, they do hold even Washington has a really good offense, whatever you think
00:18:31about Washington, but the Yankees offense is still bad right now.
00:18:34What they did is I think the single worst unit in the, all the major leagues is the
00:18:38nationals bullpen.
00:18:40Uh, you know, like Matt Crook couldn't put pitch here, uh, with the Yankees and he's,
00:18:45they're trying to close games with them.
00:18:46Same thing with Clayton beater.
00:18:48And the Yankees won three games with their runs from the eighth inning on there.
00:18:52So I'm not sure like the Dodgers are the next in who really have good pitching too.
00:18:57Uh, and as you know, it was a, again, you rather win than not win, but I don't know the
00:19:04Yankees are on sturdy footing right now.
00:19:06Their offense is still like looking around when is judge coming back and then great who you
00:19:11are again is there and we'll be in the home run Derby.
00:19:14Yeah, it has not been great.
00:19:16Yeah.
00:19:16Rice has been awesome.
00:19:17Uh, but, uh, the rest of the offense, no, uh, Bellinger, an all-star, I mean, is an amazing
00:19:23left fielder, uh, gives you good at bats has not, not been great.
00:19:27Uh, you know, obviously Volpe's not been great.
00:19:30McMahon's not been great.
00:19:32Catcher, they're getting nothing.
00:19:33Jazz has gone down a hill from last year.
00:19:36I don't know whether it's the walkier syndrome that a lot of people go through, but even Aaron
00:19:41Boone said something the other day in a nice way, of course, but, uh, they have not hit
00:19:46great, uh, this year.
00:19:47Um, you know, I mean, judge may have been playing hurt for a little while, but he wasn't even
00:19:53doing as well as he normally does.
00:19:55So, uh, that has been an issue for them, uh, as well, but yeah, overall their pitching
00:20:00is, has been good as you'd expect.
00:20:03Uh, they do have good pitching.
00:20:04Uh, I still think they need to get bullpen.
00:20:06And I think they still will look at bullpen because, uh, to me, they're not overpowering
00:20:11in the bullpen and, uh, you can't keep putting, uh, Doval in a key situation.
00:20:16He can't be a high leverage, uh, reliever, but, you know, we're nitpicking now compared
00:20:21to the Mets and other teams that really aren't very good at all.
00:20:24Uh, you know, the Yankees, are they, the question is, are they a championship team?
00:20:27Uh, at the moment they have not played like one.
00:20:30Um, you know, Rodon and Freed were trending in the right direction, which will allow them
00:20:35to put Warren or Weathers into the bullpen probably, which should help, uh, both guys
00:20:40have good arms.
00:20:41I would put them in a game before I put the ball in a game, uh, sight unseen.
00:20:46Uh, so, but I agree with you.
00:20:48I think they need that.
00:20:49I think that they need to improve their catching situation.
00:20:53Uh, again, I don't know what to make of it.
00:20:55Austin Wells, uh, John, to me started pulling the ball a little more.
00:20:59And suddenly there was some results.
00:21:01I thought it was really missing from his game.
00:21:03He was in the air to left center field for me too much in the first half and on the
00:21:08ground
00:21:08a lot.
00:21:08He pulled the ball in the air over the weekend, hit a couple of homers, had a big RBI single
00:21:13yesterday.
00:21:13You know, like if he were just even major league average from here to the end of the year,
00:21:18that would be a big, like John, for me, one of the things I say it on the show, I
00:21:22do
00:21:22with Ryan Sampson with the, uh, Pinchstrike podcast a lot.
00:21:25And that is, you know, if you could live with Ryan McMahon at 90 OPS plus or Wells at a
00:21:3390 OPS plus, cause they're good defenders.
00:21:35If part of the 90 OPS plus is they're popping balls over the fence every once in a while,
00:21:39you know, they're on their way to 20 homers and you know, the other team really has to
00:21:42bear down.
00:21:42They could change a game.
00:21:43And like McMahon has done some of that this year where he's put the ball out of the park
00:21:47and Wells did it the last few days.
00:21:49They need more.
00:21:49Let's, let's finish this up by just talking.
00:21:52You mentioned trade deadline for the Yankees.
00:21:54Let's just bounce back for the Mets.
00:21:56Uh, I wrote about it.
00:21:58I would not stop at just free agent, uh, walk your guys, uh, for the bullpen.
00:22:04I think they should trade Baselbon.
00:22:06If there's a market, I think they should trade Luke Weaver.
00:22:08If there's a market pretty much.
00:22:10And I know you've written this, John, as, as you always are on top of this stuff.
00:22:14Also where you, I think you had a very narrow five or six guys where you said I'm protecting
00:22:19these five or six, uh, everyone else is come, come to the junkyard and see what you could
00:22:25get.
00:22:25What do you think about the Mets for the next three, well, it's about two and a half weeks
00:22:29now, are we away?
00:22:30I mean, it can't be protective at this time.
00:22:32They're a third worst team in baseball.
00:22:34I mean, you've got to make deals where you can.
00:22:36Weaver's been terrific, but he hasn't been consistently terrific throughout his career.
00:22:40As much as we love him as a podcast guest, uh, you know, he is a middle reliever.
00:22:46Uh, maybe he should be closing, but I mean, that's another question.
00:22:50I, I, we, we, I think we questioned, uh, Andy about this last week, but I get it.
00:22:55Uh, you know, Devin Williams is, uh, here for three years at big bucks as a closer, you
00:23:01know, the Yankees did take him out of the closer role, so it can be done, but, uh, he was
00:23:05in his walk here then.
00:23:07So maybe that affects it.
00:23:08Uh, yeah, I mean, you've got to, uh, consider trading Weaver, Braza, but these guys are all
00:23:13more valuable to a contender than a non-contender.
00:23:16So you should be able to get overpays, particularly in a seller's market.
00:23:20I mean, who is a seller now?
00:23:22I mean, you know, Oakland may be added as a seller, but they don't have veteran guys
00:23:26who they're going to trade, who are going to get much, you know, San Francisco is a seller.
00:23:31Uh, you know, they've got a few guys they can trade, your angels, uh, you know, they
00:23:35got maybe a couple, not, not much.
00:23:38Uh, this is a real, real seller's market at this moment.
00:23:41I mean, if we've got, still got 22 teams within a few games of, of 500, you may have
00:23:47eight or fewer teams as sellers and, you know, more than double that number of buyers.
00:23:54So, uh, yeah, I would consider selling just about anything, you know, other than a few
00:23:59guys I said, don't sell, you know, on McLean and Scott and, uh, Benj and, uh, Ewing, I mean,
00:24:07Soto.
00:24:09So I had, I had about five guys, but you know, I would listen to, I would listen on anybody
00:24:13at this point.
00:24:14And that includes the five guys.
00:24:16I mean, they're not trading Ewing or Benj or Soto, but, uh, you know, doesn't hurt to
00:24:20listen, right?
00:24:21Yeah.
00:24:22Everything must go.
00:24:23I'll say this, John, as a way to close, this is, uh, starting on August 3rd, uh, I would
00:24:28try to close Kodai Senga and say, you're throwing fastballs and splits only.
00:24:33If you throw anything else, we're going to tell the media, we told you not to throw anything
00:24:36else in and just try to see if you could derive anything because it isn't like, oh, we're
00:24:42closing, you're closing.
00:24:44Even if Devin Williams went on a good run, who cares?
00:24:46You're, you're out of it.
00:24:47I would see if I could get something out of Senga, like as just to throw it as hard as
00:24:52you
00:24:52can, throw splits.
00:24:54And you know, you know why they're holding on to him, John is like, they think there's
00:24:58going to probably be a lockout next year and they don't have to pay him if, so instead of
00:25:02just eating the money, they're going to, and when they stink, they're going to try to make
00:25:05it to the finish line.
00:25:06And you know, if they have to DFA him, they'll do it at some point next year after losing
00:25:10games.
00:25:11Unfortunately, that's where we are.
00:25:13And so I would try to get something out of him by closing.
00:25:15That's for a different show when we're trying to do it.
00:25:16No, I mean, you know what?
00:25:17He is good for an inning at a time.
00:25:19Yes, that's what I would do.
00:25:21I mean, I was at a game just in the stands of the fans toward 99 in the first inning.
00:25:25It looked great.
00:25:26Next inning, I don't know, he hit a bunch of batters or hit a batter, walked a bunch
00:25:31and, you know, gave up a whole bunch of runs.
00:25:34So maybe he's good at one inning at a time.
00:25:36Maybe an opener, closer, whatever.
00:25:39You got to, might as well experiment and see what you can, what the strengths of these
00:25:43players are, because we haven't seen them so far.
00:25:46Yeah, we are entering trade season.
00:25:48Both the Yankees and Mets, for different reasons, are going to be very active.
00:25:51We thought it would be interesting to bring in someone who we know well, we work with
00:25:55him at MLB Network, who has the experience of dealing with the trade deadline to talk us
00:26:00through what mechanisms go on in front offices.
00:26:03It's Steve Phillips, and he joins us next.
00:26:05John and I are so pleased to be joined on the show by TSN in Canada, Baseball Insider, Sirius
00:26:13XM Radio and MLB Network, the lead off show.
00:26:16He's the constant on that show, and somebody we work with at the network, and somebody we
00:26:20covered for a long time.
00:26:22Steve Phillips, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
00:26:25No, I'm glad to do it, you guys.
00:26:27I've been dying for you to ask me, so I'm so happy to be on right now.
00:26:30Oh, well, besides that, we do shows with you, so we know, and please, this is serious.
00:26:37Your breadth and knowledge of what's going on is obviously great.
00:26:40We want to talk specifically Mets and Yankees, but you were the general manager of the Mets
00:26:44from 1997 to 2003.
00:26:46And so it is that time of year where we clear the draft, and everybody says now we're focusing
00:26:52on August 3rd this year, 6 p.m., the trade deadline.
00:26:55Maybe just a little bit of the mechanics, if you can, Steve, like, what does that mean?
00:27:00I'm sure you're talking to other executives, even, and in your time, the draft was in June,
00:27:05but like, I'm sure there's some talking going on.
00:27:09What switch flips here, and what is the volume of that flip?
00:27:15Yeah, yeah.
00:27:15So it's loud, and it's constant.
00:27:21Continuously reaching out and having contact with other teams, because, again,
00:27:25I GMed out of fear a little bit in New York.
00:27:29Like, I didn't ever want to be caught not knowing what was going on, so I was always
00:27:34making calls.
00:27:35I wasn't waiting for calls.
00:27:37I was making calls, just checking in.
00:27:38Where do you stand?
00:27:40What are you thinking?
00:27:40What are you looking for?
00:27:42This year, particularly, is going to be very interesting, because there's so many teams.
00:27:46You know, I think you've got 12 teams in the American League that are within three and
00:27:49a half games of a playoff spot.
00:27:51But Steve, can I just jump in one second to ask, like, when you say you're making calls
00:27:55and asking those questions, what's the level of honesty and trust, where, like, a team
00:28:00is like, oh, yeah, we need X and X, and we're willing to move Y and Z?
00:28:05Or is everyone playing chicken literally to the deadline?
00:28:07And I'm sorry I cut you off, but I'm just always fascinated about that.
00:28:10Yeah, no.
00:28:10It's just, everybody's honest about what they need.
00:28:14And generally, it's a lot of sparring to begin with.
00:28:18So it's not where you're engaged and locked in on throwing punches with each other.
00:28:22It's really, what are you thinking about your team?
00:28:26Where do you see needs for your team?
00:28:28And do you see us potentially matching up in any way in that regard?
00:28:32Now, it could be buyers with buyers in a market where you've got so many teams in on it that
00:28:38maybe there's a matchup where you've got a chance to rob Peter to pay Paul.
00:28:41I've got depth in the outfield, you need an outfielder.
00:28:45You've got depth in pitching, I need a pitcher, maybe we can engage.
00:28:48But you don't really get into too much detail yet.
00:28:52It's more figuring out who we might match up with, and then you engage your scouts to
00:28:59start to look at those teams a little bit more.
00:29:01And yet, two days later, I may be calling again because it is such a fluid market.
00:29:07I didn't want to assume something and then wait until August 1st to make a phone call
00:29:11to double check with somebody.
00:29:12So I stayed in constant contact with people.
00:29:14And that's generally, now it's more texting than it, you know, then back then it was phone
00:29:18calls.
00:29:19Now it's more texting, staying in touch with everybody and just doing your due diligence
00:29:23to make sure you know what people think about themselves, their own teams, what they might
00:29:30perceive you to be, and whether they're determining themselves as buyer or sellers.
00:29:35And then you might within that say, if you are a seller, you know, what guys are you willing
00:29:40to potentially talk about at some point?
00:29:44And then if they don't mention the name of somebody you have interest in, you'll say,
00:29:49well, would you have to consider talking about a Mike Trout in a deal that you know that they
00:29:54wouldn't necessarily throw him out there just to see.
00:29:57Now I don't know that Trout's going to get traded, but he's just a name to throw out there.
00:30:00But really, it's just gathering information, providing information, and trusting.
00:30:07Yeah, I always trusted the word that I got back during this time about who could be available
00:30:12and the level of interest they have in certain players.
00:30:16Yeah, I'm going to get a little more specific.
00:30:18You were the Mets GM, certainly for many trade deadlines.
00:30:22You bought most of them.
00:30:23I think you might have sold one of the trade deadlines.
00:30:25So you were in a position to buy.
00:30:27If you're the Mets GM now, what should they do?
00:30:30What can they do?
00:30:32Can they play for next year?
00:30:33They look like they're in such a big hole.
00:30:34I'm questioning whether they can play for next year, or they should look at maybe the
00:30:38following year.
00:30:40Yeah, so I don't think that the Mets are in a rebuild.
00:30:43They'll be in a retool.
00:30:46And, you know, I think that if it were me, I would be selling.
00:30:50Peralta would be dealt.
00:30:51Likely, you know, the Luke Weaver, because there could be so many buyers.
00:30:56Luke Weaver, even though he's got a year for next year, could actually have even more value
00:31:00because he's got some controllability.
00:31:03I personally would talk about Devin Williams in a trade.
00:31:06If somebody had interest, I'd move him.
00:31:09But I'd be open to just about everything.
00:31:12And, you know, like I, like I, if somebody asked me about Lindor, I'd listen on Lindor too.
00:31:19Um, and just to see what's out there.
00:31:23Uh, and usually a Lindor type trades more of an off season deal than it would be a trade
00:31:27deadline deal.
00:31:28But, you know, who knows, uh, you know, when we start talking about a lot of money changing
00:31:32hands and that sort of thing too.
00:31:33So, uh, but I would with the Mets, I'm, uh, you know, Clay Holmes, if he gets healthy by
00:31:38then gone, uh, I'll trade them all.
00:31:41And, uh, and then I will bring back as close to majorly ready talent as I can.
00:31:47Uh, and then I'll start figuring out the free agent market next year, other trades where
00:31:51I might be able to target players.
00:31:53I'd look to buy right now too, if I'm the, at David Stearns, I'm not, I mean, I can't
00:31:59wait for the perfect timing.
00:32:02I might have to get out in front and get a guy a year early instead of waiting until the
00:32:05off season.
00:32:05And so I think he's got to be open to selling for sure, but also targeting some, some buying
00:32:11if it's available to him.
00:32:13Steve, you mentioned Clay Holmes.
00:32:15Uh, we watched last year, Shane Bieber got traded while on a rehab.
00:32:19I think as long as he gets out on a rehab, people will probably see him and have interest.
00:32:23On the other hand, one of the things the Mets have hit, and I'm sure you hit this along the
00:32:27way.
00:32:27It's funny.
00:32:28John and I were talking about this last week.
00:32:29The Yankees are always the team we talk about where it's tough to play in New York.
00:32:33And we use Ed Whitson.
00:32:34Ed Whitson played with the Yankees 40 years ago.
00:32:37The Mets have had much bigger trouble with big players coming here than even the Yankees.
00:32:42And Clay Holmes has pitched well for both New York teams.
00:32:45You know, he can handle it.
00:32:46You know, he can handle October.
00:32:47Would you at least explore that?
00:32:50Be like, hey, before this market, which could be a confusing market.
00:32:53With a lockout looming, uh, would you like to extend with us?
00:32:58Uh, and then, then you start to feel like, okay, we got him and we got McLean and we got
00:33:02Scott.
00:33:02Hopefully you reclaim.
00:33:03And in that confusing market, maybe you only have to add one or two instead of three.
00:33:07Or do you say, I got Steve Phil, uh, Steve Phil, Steve Cohen's money and say, I'm going
00:33:12to have my cake and eat it too.
00:33:13I'm going to trade Holmes and then I'm going to resign Holmes.
00:33:16What, how would you handle that?
00:33:18Yeah, I would trade him and then resign him.
00:33:19I would, I think that, that it feels like he likes New York and I'd have that conversation
00:33:24say, listen, I'm, I'm, you know, we like you a lot and we're going to be interested in
00:33:28you as a free agent.
00:33:30Uh, but in the meantime, I've got to make this move right now and I'll take my chances that
00:33:35we will find a way to bring you back.
00:33:37Cause in the end there is one more dollar with Steve Cohen's face on it than any other
00:33:41team.
00:33:42If they want there to be, they can be the highest team in the market to bring them back.
00:33:47And so I would be more than willing to do that, but I would, I would take what I can
00:33:51get right now and be greedy with it and get prospects or majorly ready close to talent.
00:33:56But, and then, you know, even if it's starting to put together my bullpen for next year, uh,
00:34:01with some controllable guys, if somebody has got some bullpen depth, they need a starting
00:34:04pitcher.
00:34:05I'd go down that road, uh, and potentially do something.
00:34:08Look at San Diego.
00:34:09They've got pitching depth in the bullpen.
00:34:10They need starting pitching is through a way to, to start to build for the future next year
00:34:17and keep myself in a position to resign a guy like Holmes.
00:34:21I used to follow up on what you said earlier, when you say the Mets, uh, obviously you think
00:34:26they should sell, uh, pretty aggressively, but you mentioned by what do you mean by that?
00:34:31Do you mean by taking on a contract?
00:34:32I mean, the one that comes to mind would be like a Devers or Chapman or something.
00:34:36Well, how can they buy now?
00:34:37Cause they cannot trade prospects.
00:34:39Uh, they've got to, uh, really, uh, focus on the future.
00:34:43Yeah, I would think, I would think, uh, controllable pitching in return.
00:34:48I think that the Mets need to shake themselves a little bit about the way they view starting
00:34:55pitching.
00:34:56Um, the idea of getting second tier guys and trying to get more out of them, uh, is great
00:35:03when it works, but it's not always going to work.
00:35:05And when you do it with two or three guys in your rotation and that doesn't work, you
00:35:11end up with third tier pitchers on your staff and you're not going to win that way.
00:35:15The, the price of doing business, uh, when you are a large market team and you're going
00:35:21to sign starting pitching is you give them a contract that hurts, uh, and you know, at
00:35:25the back end, it's probably not going to be great.
00:35:27The Dylan sees contract.
00:35:29People say, well, he's been dependable.
00:35:30Well, who's healthy for 13 years.
00:35:32He's been healthy for six.
00:35:33They signed him to a seven year contract.
00:35:35At some point, he's probably not going to be healthy, but, but it's what you do, uh, to
00:35:41get the guy it's the price of doing business because the alternative is where they are right
00:35:46now.
00:35:47It worked a couple of years ago with Sean Mania and, and with, uh, uh, Severino, it worked
00:35:54that year, but it didn't work the next year.
00:35:57And when I had took a step back, they re-signed the wrong guy.
00:36:00It didn't work out well for him.
00:36:01And so, you know, you pay for, you, you pay the premium for the premium pitchers and you
00:36:07can try to get more out of less and, and, and in this, and in a small market, it's kind
00:36:12of what you have to do.
00:36:13And if it doesn't work, well, it was what you had to do in a large market when it doesn't
00:36:17work.
00:36:18It's like, what the hell are you doing?
00:36:19Uh, and, and so I think that therein lies the difference in the market and the expectations
00:36:25in the way they need, I believe they should look at pitching differently.
00:36:29You know, Steve, the other name you threw out there is, and I want to be clear about
00:36:32this.
00:36:33Steve Cohn was a guest on us.
00:36:34And one of the bits of news he made is he said, Francisco Lindor and Juan Soto are not
00:36:39going to be traded.
00:36:40Uh, and I want to add that without knowing what the financial rules are moving forward,
00:36:47including that there could be a salary cap, it'd be very difficult to add a player who
00:36:51makes 31 a year, like, like Lindor, uh, you know, without knowing, am I over a cap or
00:36:57whatever in the future?
00:36:59Having said that, do you think they've got to break this up?
00:37:02Uh, because of what they're in the midst of doing for two years in a row.
00:37:07And even if they have to take back a bad contract to get prospects, to break it up, you know,
00:37:13the, the blue Jays are willing to do it for prospects, but you have to take Anthony Santander
00:37:18also.
00:37:18So like weigh it out a little bit or something along those lines.
00:37:22How aggressive would you be in that area?
00:37:24And, and he has a no trade clause besides everything else.
00:37:27Yeah.
00:37:27Yeah.
00:37:28Right.
00:37:28So it's, it's one that, that it's delicate because when a player has no trade clause, uh,
00:37:34you need to find out first, whether there's any appetite.
00:37:36I think that going down the road and bringing it to him later, uh, you know, is one that he'll
00:37:44say no.
00:37:45And now you've got a bad feeling moving forward.
00:37:47So I would try to find out whether, you know, there's some openness to it.
00:37:51I don't think they have to break it up.
00:37:53I don't think they have to winning cures all ills.
00:37:57So if they're good enough around the two guys, then, you know, they'll figure out how to get
00:38:03along with each other.
00:38:04That being said, they need the two guys to be at their best in order to win.
00:38:08Um, now, um, so I would be, and, and Steve Cohen saying we're not trading them is the
00:38:17right thing to say.
00:38:18Um, but it doesn't mean that if somebody has some level of interest that you shouldn't at
00:38:23least consider it and the possibility of getting out from underneath that reconfiguring the money.
00:38:29And, you know, like I can't imagine the CBA is going to make it that it's immediately, you've
00:38:35got to get everything in line.
00:38:37I still know how they can do that.
00:38:39Even though that was the proposal that they'd have to get it in line initially.
00:38:43Uh, I think there's going to be some grandfathering and some time to be able to get it there.
00:38:47But I think there should be some forethought to start to look forward to it and understanding
00:38:51that as these players get older, not Soto so much, but Lindor, he is not going to be the
00:38:56same player.
00:38:57Uh, and if there is some interest there, maybe moving in that direction and understanding
00:39:02that, yes, you might have to take some money in return.
00:39:05I'd rather get an asset back, uh, a Santander or a Matt Chapman, and they can put a Domus
00:39:13at third and, and, and, and do that.
00:39:16If I'm moving a Lindor, uh, then just throw money at somebody.
00:39:19I'd like to at least see if it can work.
00:39:20And I always release the guy if he doesn't work for me, but I at least try to get something
00:39:24in return.
00:39:24Um, but I think that, that looking for controllable pitching and open to everything right now,
00:39:32I don't think.
00:39:33So one of the things in a small market like Milwaukee is, and Billy Bean used to say this
00:39:39to me all the time, he goes, I would never want that job in New York because you have
00:39:43to consider things that never even enter my mindset.
00:39:47And because you have the money to do it, you kind of have to do it sometimes.
00:39:51And it can put you in a predicament when you do, I think for David Stearns, he's got to
00:39:57be open to everything.
00:39:59Not just the limitations that sometimes you would have in Milwaukee and be open.
00:40:05Even if you don't go down that road, you've got to be open to at least considering maybe
00:40:08I should consider starting pitcher for seven years.
00:40:11Uh, maybe that is the right thing.
00:40:13Maybe it will be the right guy and, and how do I build around that?
00:40:16And I think that they've been a little limiting in their perspective of what they've considered
00:40:21so far.
00:40:23Uh, speaking of breaking things up, they already broke things up once last off season, they
00:40:27traded a quartet of mainstays.
00:40:30Now, to be fair, they haven't all burned them, right?
00:40:32Diaz has been hurt.
00:40:34McNeil's not having a particularly good year, uh, but Nimmo has done pretty well.
00:40:38And, uh, Alonzo has done well, uh, with the Orioles.
00:40:42Uh, what are your thoughts on it as a guy who was the GM?
00:40:46It does feel like there was only one team that was willing to go that five years for Alonzo,
00:40:50but he, he did have a particular, uh, value to the Mets.
00:40:55Uh, how far might you, because it does, it feels like, you know, you're a slugging, a
00:41:00right-handed hitting, uh, I don't want to say non-athletic because they're all amazing
00:41:03athletes, but the guy who doesn't move particularly great, uh, you know, isn't, and is over 30
00:41:10teams don't like to give those long deals for, would you have sucked it up or considered
00:41:14that if you're the Mets GM for a guy who's their home run leader and plays every single
00:41:19day, uh, yeah.
00:41:22So, uh, and so look, I feel like I'm being up in David Stearns a little bit here, but
00:41:25I just looked at, and it's just a matter of, of different perspectives, right?
00:41:29I mean, he can have his and I can, I can have mine and we can both be right or
00:41:32we can both
00:41:33be wrong.
00:41:33Uh, I think that they got caught up a little bit in looking at what play their, their
00:41:39players that they've had for a while, what they couldn't do instead of what they can
00:41:43do.
00:41:44And so Pete Alonzo can't range great to his right and he doesn't throw well.
00:41:49I agree.
00:41:51But what he could do at first base is he was the best at picking the ball out of the
00:41:56dirt
00:41:56of any first baseman in baseball.
00:41:59But over a two year period, he had 20 more picks than Vladimir Guerrero Jr.
00:42:02had, who was second, uh, in picks like 48 to 28.
00:42:06Uh, and Alonzo did give you the presence in the middle of a lineup that they don't have
00:42:12in the middle of their lineup right now.
00:42:14I mean, Soto gives you some of that, but without, when Soto was hurt, Alonzo still would have
00:42:19given them that threat in the middle of the lineup to hit the ball in the ballpark.
00:42:23And I don't look at what a guy's production is in Baltimore, like Alonzo and think that's
00:42:28what it would have been for the Mets.
00:42:30I think that like he was a Matt and, and he loved to be a Matt and he cared about
00:42:34the
00:42:35Mets and the fans loved him.
00:42:36And he was a very productive offensive player.
00:42:39I thought that, that the idea of, it felt to me like every move that they made, they
00:42:45took a lesser player last year.
00:42:47Like everybody got excited and thinking, they're going to win 90 games.
00:42:49I'm thinking like, I don't see it.
00:42:50Like Polanco at first isn't Alonzo.
00:42:53And, and then it was going to be run prevention, but you had a guy moving to first who never
00:42:57played first.
00:42:58You had Bichette, who wasn't a third baseman playing third base.
00:43:02Nimmo for Simeon to me, yes, run prevention for, for Simeon's a good defender, but it felt
00:43:08to me like he lost his quick twitch and that the offensive game and sacrifice we're making
00:43:13was significant from Nimmo to Simeon.
00:43:15And so I kept thinking, wait, and then at the bullpen, Devin Williams, okay, but he wasn't
00:43:19Edwin Diaz.
00:43:20I'm sure Diaz got hurt, but, but I still, I would have gone down the road with keeping
00:43:24the guys that could win in New York, produce in New York.
00:43:27Uh, and, and now I feel like they, they're missing a huge aircraft carrier in the lineup,
00:43:34uh, and a big offensive threat.
00:43:36And sure.
00:43:37I like the young guys, Carson Benj and Ewing.
00:43:40I like those guys, but I liked Beatty last year too.
00:43:43And he hasn't taken it to another level.
00:43:45I think Benj has a shorter swing, more bat speed.
00:43:48I do like his approach.
00:43:50Um, and so, uh, and even those guys aren't guarantees moving forward.
00:43:55So, yeah, I, I just think that, that I didn't understand the plan and I didn't understand
00:44:00the run prevention when they ended up playing so many guys out of position to begin with
00:44:04Luis Robert jr.
00:44:05I don't know why they thought he would hit for them when he hadn't hit two years prior
00:44:09in Chicago.
00:44:11I didn't see that working out either.
00:44:14You know, Steve, I just, before I ask the question, I think I'd like to throw flowers
00:44:17because, uh, John and I mentioned it at the top of the show and, uh, we've mentioned
00:44:22it on other shows.
00:44:23Obviously, I think we both picked the Mets to win the division.
00:44:25I remember doing a show with you, I think preseason you did, right.
00:44:29Am I correct?
00:44:30You, you said to me, I don't like the Mets, right?
00:44:32No.
00:44:32Yeah.
00:44:32I didn't have making the playoffs.
00:44:33I just, I just didn't see the moves all felt like they were taking a lesser player to
00:44:38replace the guys who left.
00:44:39So you, you weren't talking about that.
00:44:41So I want to ask again, something to go with you and I ask this question a lot and I
00:44:47try
00:44:47to stay away from this kind of stuff.
00:44:49Cause I always want to deal.
00:44:50I'm a reporter.
00:44:51I want to give facts, facts, facts.
00:44:52But in the early two thousands, when you and Bobby B kind of had a going to going on, I
00:44:56was like, ah, the Mets got it going on.
00:44:58And then it didn't last in 2006.
00:45:00I thought they were the best team in the sport and set up for years.
00:45:04And it didn't turn out that way.
00:45:06I thought when Stearns and Cohn came in, it was kind of like, again, let's, I don't want
00:45:11to step on the will puns, but like, there were a lot of bad feelings about it.
00:45:13Like the Madoff stuff, like new thing, top of the market for baseball, except for the
00:45:18Mets, it never seems to work out with any sustainability.
00:45:23Am I, are John and I missing something?
00:45:26We don't understand where the other team in town could be good for 35 straight years
00:45:30and the Mets can't be good for like three straight years ever.
00:45:34Yeah.
00:45:34Yeah.
00:45:34No, it's interesting.
00:45:35And I, and I think part of it is, um, you know, even when you go back, I mean, the,
00:45:41the 86 team, right.
00:45:42Won the one world series.
00:45:43Now they had a lot of off field issues that I think played into everything that had taken
00:45:48place there.
00:45:49Um, I think during my time, we had the 2001 season where we sort of had a bit of a
00:45:56hangover
00:45:56from the world series.
00:45:59And I was faced with, do I still kind of write these guys out a little bit or, you know,
00:46:06and hope that they give me a bounce back or do I move on from them and, and moved and
00:46:10I moved on in a way.
00:46:11And I think the same sort of thing in the, in the early, in the mid two thousands, you
00:46:16know, 2006, seven, you know, we move on from it when there's a little bit of a lull instead
00:46:21of trying to spike it to get it to pick back up again.
00:46:25Uh, and, but you're right.
00:46:26I think that sustainability was a thing.
00:46:28And I felt like I, and so when I evaluated myself, I felt like maybe I was a fixer, but
00:46:34I wasn't a sustainer, but I feel like that I tried to fix when I should have tried to
00:46:39sustain.
00:46:40Uh, and I think that, that you get caught in that.
00:46:43I was a tinkerer and over tinkered at times, uh, as I look back and evaluate.
00:46:47And I think that, that there's in some ways, what happens with the Mets is they think, oh,
00:46:52we've had these guys long enough.
00:46:53Let's move on where the Yankees tend to have a core that they hold onto for a period of
00:46:58time.
00:46:59And that core rides them through even some tougher years where maybe it's not quite as
00:47:04good as it's been.
00:47:05They still like it to the playoffs, even if they don't win a world series, but, but we
00:47:10gave up on that on a group at times.
00:47:13Now, you, you mentioned your, uh, old role and your, you know, you did some tinkering.
00:47:18Uh, now you're obviously very good at your new job.
00:47:21Uh, what, what do you think?
00:47:24Do you, do you miss your old job a lot?
00:47:26Did you enjoy that?
00:47:28I, I think it's takes probably 24 hours a day.
00:47:31Not, I mean, you're working hard now, but, uh, do you miss that?
00:47:35And you have regrets that you were in a different era too.
00:47:38I mean, you had the handicap, you, you didn't have Steve Cohn as your owner, uh, right.
00:47:42And, uh, you had the will ponds who weren't, you know, big, big spenders to begin with.
00:47:48And then they had the Madoff situation too.
00:47:50So, uh, you certainly had a different situation.
00:47:53Uh, someone probably say harder, but do you have any thoughts about anything you, uh, miss
00:47:59or, and would have done differently?
00:48:02Yeah.
00:48:02I will tell you that I do think that the Mets GM job, at least when I was doing, it
00:48:07felt
00:48:07like the toughest job in all of sports, uh, GM job, because you're in the same city as the
00:48:13Yankees.
00:48:13They were in that great run of success with, you know, all the world series championships.
00:48:18The expectations were the same in town, like Mets fans, like, well, I want you to do what
00:48:22they're doing.
00:48:23Uh, and the resources were different.
00:48:25Now I will say, I can't complain about finances.
00:48:28I think Nelson Doubleday and the will ponds when I was there, they, I was, I wasn't at the
00:48:32top, but I was given enough money to work with.
00:48:35I don't feel like I was shortchanged and things.
00:48:37Uh, I mean, I wish some things were a little different, but they were, I, I don't want to
00:48:40put that on them.
00:48:41Um, I think that, that the job, the job is a lifestyle.
00:48:48It's not a job.
00:48:49Uh, and you know, when it's 162 games and 187 days, and then the work starts, right?
00:48:56We're at the end of the season.
00:48:58The owner says, I don't want to hear anything about family time.
00:49:00You guys got a lot of work to do, get to work.
00:49:02Uh, and then you're putting it together in the off season.
00:49:04You know, I went on one vacation in 13 years in the Mets front office, uh, cause nobody else
00:49:09was, and I went on one and I went on it.
00:49:12I took my kids on a Disney cruise and I got trashed for doing it.
00:49:16Uh, and, uh, uh, and, and so, uh, yeah, I don't, I, I love the job.
00:49:22It set me up for a second chapter.
00:49:25Uh, I love being a GM for 30 teams instead of for one team.
00:49:29Cause at the end of the day, somebody wins, somebody loses, and I don't have an owner and
00:49:32owner son calling me, you know, mad about anything.
00:49:35So, uh, this is a gentler lifestyle, but still gives me the joy of being around the game.
00:49:40I like how you snuck in owner's son.
00:49:42Uh, that was well played, Steve.
00:49:45Uh, Steve, I wonder if I could transition it to the Yankees a little bit.
00:49:49Um, look, their consistency, as you mentioned, is, is terrific.
00:49:54Like they figure a way into this every year.
00:49:56You do work for the Blue Jays.
00:49:58The Blue Jays were like one inch away from winning a world series.
00:50:01They're in last place in the AL East right now.
00:50:02You see how, how hard it is to sustain something.
00:50:06Having said that the Yankees have some obvious areas, uh, to, to improve.
00:50:11And one of them is something I, again, I want to ask you because it was something you worked
00:50:15on a lot when you were a GM, which is how hard it is to improve a bullpen, especially
00:50:20with the season underway, right?
00:50:21Cause it's the, we want to trade for the guy with the one ERA, but we kind of know he's
00:50:25a three ERA guy.
00:50:26Does that mean he's going to be five for us?
00:50:28Do we trade for the guy with the five?
00:50:29Because we think he's a three.
00:50:30So it'll be, what is your theory about how to attack this time of year?
00:50:35If you're not going to get like Mason Miller or Yon Duran, where it's just like a no brainer,
00:50:39they're available.
00:50:40I can afford it.
00:50:40I'm going to do it.
00:50:41Yeah.
00:50:42So my belief is that, um, that when you trade for a reliever in season, you're getting the
00:50:51guy that he is not the guy that you hope he can be, uh, or that he's been in the
00:50:56past,
00:50:56you know, relievers are a little fickle.
00:50:58They're the one area where general managers make their most mistakes because from one
00:51:01year to the next, it's really hard to quantify the impact of innings and appearances and warming
00:51:05up and sitting down and everything else.
00:51:07But my experience has been that the guy that I trade for is the guy that had the three ERA,
00:51:13not a five.
00:51:14He's not a one.
00:51:15He's what he has been so far that year.
00:51:18Maybe we can tweak them.
00:51:19Maybe we can get them to change the shape of this is, is everybody does now, but generally
00:51:24you kind of, you get what you see.
00:51:27Uh, and, and, you know, one of the things that I always believed in, uh, was I did want
00:51:33a closer who pitched the ninth inning.
00:51:36I didn't want the, to have the mix and match of the facing the high leverage part of the
00:51:41lineup.
00:51:41I just think that, that, that pitchers like to know when they're going to pitch and maybe
00:51:47you could say, well, he does, he's going to face the top three hitters in a lineup and
00:51:51maybe that's it, but sometimes it's in the seventh, sometimes the eighth night.
00:51:55And when you warm up, how you get ready, where your mindset is, when you start to get your
00:51:59game face on matters for guys.
00:52:02Uh, now I also wanted to get as many former closers as I could understanding the concept
00:52:09now is sometimes the game is saved in the seventh inning or the sixth inning or the eighth
00:52:13inning.
00:52:14Uh, and I wanted the guy who's gotten that last out to be able to face those pitchers and
00:52:19those hitters in the sixth, seventh, eighth inning, but I also wanted my closer to pitch
00:52:23the ninth.
00:52:24And so I wanted as much pedigree.
00:52:26So, you know, Dennis Cook was one of my guys.
00:52:28He had closed games.
00:52:28Turk Wendell had closed games.
00:52:30Uh, and you know, I wanted to get as many guys and, you know, who the heck at one point
00:52:34was a closer and did it.
00:52:36We ended up trading him for Lenny Harris, but I wanted, I wanted guys with closer pedigree
00:52:40and experience in my bullpen.
00:52:43Uh, and I wanted balance.
00:52:44I wanted a left-hander for early in the game to flip the lineup around.
00:52:48I wanted a left-hander for late in the game for the high leverage, better left-handed
00:52:52hitter.
00:52:52I wanted depth and balance, uh, to the bullpen as well.
00:52:55And, and I felt like the bullpen was the area you had the best chance to improve at
00:53:01the trade deadline.
00:53:01It was the easiest, most, most affordable, cost-effective.
00:53:05This year is going to be interesting, right?
00:53:06Cause we got, I don't know, 24 teams that are within three or five games of a playoff spot.
00:53:13Uh, and it's going to come down to August 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for trades when teams define,
00:53:18whether they're in or out, uh, and whether they're buyers or sellers.
00:53:23We've talked a lot about the Mets here naturally, cause they're not having the year that we expected
00:53:27and you were the Mets GM, but, uh, I'll put you on the spot a little bit.
00:53:31You feel like you're the GM or, uh, acting like a GM for 30 teams.
00:53:35Uh, do you have any, uh, bold thoughts, any bold trades, uh, that you, you would consider?
00:53:41Maybe ones that haven't been mentioned a lot.
00:53:43You know, we mentioned the same potential trade targets over and over again, but, uh, you have
00:53:48any ideas out there because there are 30 teams aiming to do something.
00:53:52Yeah.
00:53:53So I do think that the Tampa Bay Rays are in on Tarek Skubal.
00:53:57Uh, I think the Cubs are in on Skubal.
00:54:00Uh, and again, if he ends up getting dealt, the other one, Casey Mize is going to be a big
00:54:04chip
00:54:04to be traded to.
00:54:05If they go Skubal, then Mize is going to move.
00:54:07Mize has been excellent this year, but I think the big one for me, I think that when I look
00:54:11at
00:54:12the Yankees and their bullpen, like at some point Duvall scaring me a little bit, uh, you know,
00:54:17he, he runs away from his arm all the time with his delivery.
00:54:20Uh, I've proposed this before.
00:54:23And I think that, that if I'm San Diego and I want to get into the playoffs this year with
00:54:29a new owner and everything else and all the fans, you don't want to give up that business
00:54:34part.
00:54:35Uh, you want that business cycle to stay in sync with your baseball cycle.
00:54:39I'm considering trading Mason Miller.
00:54:42I am.
00:54:43Uh, and I'm considering trading him to the Yankees because if I'm San Diego, I need starting
00:54:50pitching and I need offense and whether that's going to be Weathers who they've had before
00:54:56or, or, or, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Warren Warren as well, uh, in a deal or Elmer Rodriguez,
00:55:04uh, uh, or Dominguez and or Jones.
00:55:08I think there's a package the Yankees could put together that could give the Padres a shot
00:55:14to win this year.
00:55:15And they've got Jason Adams hurt a little bit, but they've got more a home.
00:55:19They've got a strata.
00:55:20Uh, they've got guys that can pitch the ninth.
00:55:22Yeah.
00:55:22They're not Mason Miller, but I'd be willing to give up a game or two there to give me
00:55:2920 starts, 15 starts and 300 at bats of somebody who can hit the ball out of the ballpark for
00:55:35a team that came into the ballpark in the Yankees.
00:55:38If I could get Miller and move, uh, uh, Bednar up in the, in that bullpen, I think that that's
00:55:45a huge play for the Yankees.
00:55:47And so I see a buyer buyer matchup between the Yankees and Padres.
00:55:51It would be bold for AJ Preller, but he's bold.
00:55:55And if he wants to win, he could get blue chip talent back in return.
00:55:58It's not Leo DeVries, but it could be some significant impact talent return.
00:56:02Uh, I'd be curious to see if there's a fit there.
00:56:05You know, Jones is from San Diego, but you really think of Jones and, uh, Weathers that
00:56:12gets you Mason Miller.
00:56:13You might get right.
00:56:14You have to get Rodriguez in the deal.
00:56:15So I mean, you're going to have to, you're going to have to, you're going to have to put
00:56:17more in.
00:56:18Yeah.
00:56:18Okay.
00:56:19But if I'm the Yankees, like when they're fully healthy, they are the best team in the
00:56:24American league.
00:56:26And, and when you get Miller there and then you get Judge back and Stanton back, I, I think
00:56:32that this is the year the Yankees have to go for it.
00:56:34And I would be more than willing to give what it was going to take to get Miller at the
00:56:38end
00:56:38of the game.
00:56:39Yeah.
00:56:39Steve, I'm with you.
00:56:40And not only is Jones from, uh, San Diego Weathers was the seventh pick in the draft overall
00:56:45by the Padres.
00:56:46They, they, and AJ traded him and AJ probably traded him already.
00:56:49So they know him.
00:56:50Uh, and, and if AJ probably called me and said, it took Jones, uh, Weathers and, uh,
00:56:55Rodriguez, I'd say, uh, those guys already have plane tickets.
00:56:59Uh, I can't wait to see Mason Miller here because I think it would be such a winning
00:57:03move for the Yankees this year.
00:57:04And you have control years going forward, uh, on, on him as well.
00:57:09I am yet.
00:57:09And Bednar is a free agent at the end of the year.
00:57:11So you're helping now and the future.
00:57:13I would just, if that was out there, let me ask you about another possibility to close here,
00:57:17Steve.
00:57:17And again, in a way it talks about both New York teams, but you're thinking cap a little
00:57:21bit for the Mets, which is if the Met, if the Yankees wanted to do one shop stopping,
00:57:27it's conceivable that Clay Holmes, Luke Weaver, and even Luis Torrens would solve a lot of their
00:57:33problems.
00:57:34Uh, Holmes is a guy who go right in the rotation right now, allow you to trade Weathers or whatever.
00:57:39You know, you could fold them into the bullpen later on.
00:57:41Uh, he succeeded in with the Yankees.
00:57:43He succeeded in October.
00:57:45So is Weaver, uh, the Yankees need a, somebody who could shut down a running game and hit
00:57:50right-handed from catching Torrens does those things though.
00:57:53I think they'd like to shoot higher offensively, but even if they don't, it does.
00:57:57The Mets are having such a terrible season.
00:57:59Their fans are so disenchanted and miserable.
00:58:02Can you actually trade with the Yankees at the trade deadline and help them win a championship
00:58:08perhaps?
00:58:09And I know the usual answer is I'm going to make the best trade possible, but do you have
00:58:14to take that into account and say, Hey, I'm getting a dollar 10 from here.
00:58:19The Yankees got to give me a dollar 50 to even consider this.
00:58:21Yeah.
00:58:22It's so it's interesting, right?
00:58:23So Frank Cashin, who I learned from, uh, in the front office would always say to me, don't
00:58:30worry about trading in your division.
00:58:32Don't worry about trading with the Yankees.
00:58:33If it's the right trade for you, then make the trade.
00:58:36If it helps them, then so be it.
00:58:38It helps them.
00:58:38Um, I, you know, and I made trades with the Yankees back in the day, uh, you know, when
00:58:43flip David justice and Guthrie and got open space for Alomar and, and, and it didn't always
00:58:49work out, but Ventura and, and so like, I was willing to do it.
00:58:53If it was setting me up for success, I didn't mind if the Yankees were winning.
00:58:57I think it's better for baseball if they do it, if we both are even better.
00:59:00So, um, I don't know how David Stern's going to feel about that though.
00:59:04Especially in this moment when the fans are so miserable, if you get the Yankees a parade,
00:59:12like what does that look like in New York?
00:59:14Yeah.
00:59:15I actually think Steve Cohen, if he thought it was the right thing for the team would be
00:59:19okay doing it.
00:59:20I just don't know that David would be, Sterns would be in the bed.
00:59:23You know, he's got a lot of heat now.
00:59:25And if it ends up that he ends up getting them there, it's, it could be really hard on him,
00:59:30really hard on him moving forward with it all.
00:59:33So, but you're right.
00:59:34It would be a nice fit for them.
00:59:35I'd be able to do it.
00:59:37I wonder if even the door could fit for the Yankees to play shortstop.
00:59:40I don't know if they'd go down that road or not, but they could use some stability at
00:59:43shortstop too.
00:59:44Let's think big here guys.
00:59:45Yeah.
00:59:47I mean, if we're going to get aggregated, we should really get aggregated.
00:59:51I think that's fair.
00:59:52Well, you never know, but that sounds like fantasy baseball to me, but it turns out.
00:59:57I, my perception of David is that he's analytical and he's going to do what works, uh, what he
01:00:04thinks is right for his team.
01:00:05That'd be my guess.
01:00:07I don't know.
01:00:07You might take the emotion out of it.
01:00:09Right.
01:00:09I think that you might be right.
01:00:10But yeah, but it's, you know, I, I tried to take emotion out of things too, and do what
01:00:17you think is right.
01:00:18But you also understand the self-inflicted wounds that can come with some of the moves
01:00:24that you make, especially if you benefit the Yankees with it.
01:00:27Uh, and cause we're human beings, right?
01:00:29So we try to take the emotion out, but even the most analytical of us have feelings too.
01:00:35You know, you know, what reminded me of it is like the Knicks one and a hundred percent
01:00:39of the people in New York felt great about it.
01:00:41Cause I, there's a team in Brooklyn, but if you're a basketball fan in New York, you're
01:00:44a Knick fan.
01:00:46If you're a Met, you know, it's probably 60, 40 Yankees to Mets in, you know, the general
01:00:52area, you know, something close to that.
01:00:54Like, I do think you probably have to consider in this year, if they got a parade in the same
01:01:00place, the Knicks just got a parade here.
01:01:03I just like thinking about my friends who are crazy Met fans, what that would do to
01:01:08them.
01:01:08It just feels like it's got to be baked into, I wouldn't not do it, but it's got to be
01:01:14baked into the pie.
01:01:15It feels like, you know, I suggested Torrens for the Yankees a while back, and I got a lot
01:01:20of heat from Mets fans just for suggesting, I mean, heat, not the kind of heat that David
01:01:25Stearns is getting, but I got talk back.
01:01:27Uh, I mean, we're talking about a backup catch.
01:01:30I love Luis, Luis Terrence.
01:01:32He's a backup catcher.
01:01:33Luke Weaver is in a terrific year.
01:01:36He's at this point, he's not a middle really, he's a setup guy.
01:01:40I mean, I would get Lindor, you know, you trade Lindor to the Yankees, you're going to get
01:01:44heat.
01:01:44If you get Terrence, if it's Terrence or a reliever, I mean, you got to deal with that,
01:01:49don't you?
01:01:50I mean, it might, I mean, it's not my thing.
01:01:53I'm not taking any real heat here, but I mean, I think, I think the smaller scale deal versus
01:02:00the one-stop shopping is where maybe the difference is, right?
01:02:04So if you satisfy all the Yankees needs, then it's kind of feels offensive.
01:02:10If you just satisfy the backup catcher, you know, the other sort of wildcard one is if
01:02:16Hunter Goodman would be available in Colorado.
01:02:18And I look at Paul DePodesta and, you know, I don't know, to me, it feels like they're
01:02:23five years away from being five years away from truly competing.
01:02:26And so would a Hunter Goodman be another great deal, like the Yankees getting a guy like Hunter
01:02:32Goodman and what he could offer offensively behind the plate with length and depth for
01:02:36that lineup would be a major score for them too.
01:02:41And, you know, overwhelming the Rockies with a number of majorly ready impact players, controllable
01:02:48guys for the long term.
01:02:49Now, Goodman's pretty controllable too, but, you know, that's the other pipe dream out there.
01:02:54If you want to think big from the Yankees perspective, a rebuilding Rockies team and,
01:03:00you know, sort of Herschel Walker-ing them a little bit, what could you bring back if
01:03:04you're Colorado and what it would mean to the Yankees?
01:03:07Spencer Jones would be really interesting at altitude, you know, and could actually handle
01:03:13running around their outfield a little bit.
01:03:16Just because you brought it up as we're wrapping, I keep seeing the Goodman thing and obviously
01:03:22he's a very good player.
01:03:23I believe he's where John is in Philly.
01:03:25I think he made the all-star team, right?
01:03:28Yeah.
01:03:28High strikeout numbers during the regular season for a team that wants to win scare the
01:03:33heck out of me because I think it gets exploited at the biggest points of the year and you
01:03:39become a non-factor.
01:03:40It was the Joey Gallo thing.
01:03:41It's, I hated that trade from the second it was made for a variety of reasons included,
01:03:47but namely that.
01:03:48And I'm just, the Goodman strikeout numbers, when he gets mentioned, I'm like, is he going
01:03:53to hit against the best pitching in October when that's the goal here?
01:03:56The goal isn't just to get in, right?
01:03:58Which Goodman obviously would help.
01:03:59Would that scare the heck out of you if you were in charge?
01:04:02A little bit.
01:04:03I also, you know, he's not played a game that had any meaning at all yet either.
01:04:06So, you know, and so what does the market change?
01:04:10Now, having talked to him a few times, I think he's made of the right stuff.
01:04:15But yeah, contact is an issue and it would just mean that I better have enough contact
01:04:19in the lineup to absorb the guy that can run into the three-run homer.
01:04:23But in the postseason, home runs are the, you know, the collateral for scoring.
01:04:31It's why the Brewers don't advance in the postseason because they manufacture.
01:04:35You don't do that in the postseason.
01:04:36So, I'd still keep an open mind about Goodman, but it's a fair question.
01:04:41You know, my thought on that, Goodman's a terrific player.
01:04:44My concern is bringing a catcher into the middle of things who's going to be your full-time
01:04:49catcher just because of the pitching staff.
01:04:51And they do have, I think, the top ERA in the league.
01:04:54So, a little concern there.
01:04:56If you had the choice, I mean, I would take, if it was the same pieces, I'm training for
01:05:02Mason Miller to me.
01:05:04I don't know.
01:05:04What are your thoughts on that?
01:05:06Yeah, I would too.
01:05:07Miller went better.
01:05:07I'd go Miller.
01:05:08I mean, if I could get, you know, Jeffers in a deal, smaller deal, I would consider that.
01:05:14Although, Minnesota's, you know, they're a half game out of a playoff right now.
01:05:17You talk about trading help for help.
01:05:21I keep coming to this, which is the Twins just try to improve their bullpen, right, by
01:05:27making a little trade, jumping the market.
01:05:30Duval and Bird are not going to be in the Yankee bullpen on August 4th.
01:05:35Like, they're going to get replaced.
01:05:37And the feeling here is probably a little bit like, like, those guys aren't going to
01:05:41succeed here, but they might under less stress.
01:05:44And I just wonder when you do the, like, when you were mentioning the Miller trade, I just
01:05:48wonder, not that Minnesota might trade Jeffers straight up for Bird and or Duval, but could
01:05:54Duval or Bird and a prospect get you Jeffers because a guy goes right into the bullpen and
01:06:01they just keep the catching situation the way it was while Jeffers was out for six, seven
01:06:06weeks?
01:06:07Yeah, right.
01:06:07I think they can do that.
01:06:09And so, yes, I think there's a possibility of a deal like that with a team like Minnesota
01:06:14where, and I think they're going to probably be in a place as a smaller market to, to make
01:06:19sure that we're getting, still compete because their owner, remember the, the, the son came
01:06:25in and is running the team there and he scoffed at the notion that they were a 74 win team.
01:06:30He thought they were much better than that.
01:06:31Now I didn't.
01:06:32And yet they're playing better than that right now.
01:06:34We'll see how it ends up if they fade.
01:06:36Uh, but I think that if they could buy and sell and get guys that could better reconfigure
01:06:42their roster, I think there's a way to do that.
01:06:44And it's the right thing for a market like Minnesota.
01:06:47Yeah.
01:06:48And Jeffers is a walkier guy.
01:06:50Uh, Steve, uh, we, we went longer than I think we thought.
01:06:54Uh, we went down a lot of put our thinking GM caps on here that I think is always fascinating
01:06:58to do with you up at the network and here.
01:07:00I can't tell you how much John and I appreciate you taking some time out.
01:07:03You are one of the hardest working guys in the industry.
01:07:06You're popping around on a lot of things.
01:07:07Thank you so much for joining us on the show.
01:07:09I'm happy to do it.
01:07:10I've been working with you guys for years now and have great respect for both of you.
01:07:15So happy to jump on here with you today.
01:07:17Thanks again, Steve.
01:07:18Thanks, Steve.
01:07:19John and I, of course, thanks Steve Phillips for joining us on the show.
01:07:22John hit or error.
01:07:23I'm going to give an error.
01:07:25I don't know.
01:07:25I might've given it this last week.
01:07:26I don't, I don't remember, but I'm so, uh, hyped up on all-star snubs.
01:07:30I still can't believe that Zach Wheeler and Sonny Gray are not all-star.
01:07:35I mean, I have no, I, I really don't get it.
01:07:38Uh, you know, when somebody snub, we always say, oh, he'll get picked later.
01:07:42It'll, it'll, we'll find a way to get him in.
01:07:44I mean, right now, Zach Wheeler, is he 10 and one with a 2.1 ERA.
01:07:48And you've got a Sonny Gray, who is, uh, at least it was a last place team.
01:07:53I think they've dug them their way out of it.
01:07:55He's I think 11 and one or 12 and one.
01:07:57I don't know with a two five or so ERA, uh, how are they're not on the all-star team?
01:08:01I, it's a little beyond me.
01:08:04Uh, you know, there's some issue with the player voting.
01:08:07I don't know why they have to hand in their votes on June 28th when we don't announce them
01:08:12for another 10 days after that.
01:08:14I mean, we do have a cell phone now.
01:08:16You can do it the day before, uh, things change.
01:08:19So I get why the players mess it up, I mess it up in quotes, uh, but I don't really
01:08:25get
01:08:26why he wasn't picked earlier.
01:08:27Now, eventually Wheeler was picked.
01:08:30Eventually Wheeler was asked and he declined because he felt disrespected.
01:08:34Now that, that part is on him.
01:08:35I don't, I don't get that.
01:08:36You know, you know, who cares whether you're the pick first or fifth or whatever, you know,
01:08:41it's like when people hire somebody, they don't pick the right guy.
01:08:44You know, if you're the fifth pick, you don't say, I'm disrespected.
01:08:46I'm not taking the job.
01:08:48If you want the job, you take the job, the games in Philly, you should be here.
01:08:52Uh, it doesn't make any sense to me.
01:08:55Yeah, John, I agree with you on both of those guys.
01:08:57And also I agree with you that, uh, you know, I understand Wheeler decided to like draw a
01:09:01line in the sand, but I think he'll probably look back.
01:09:04It was an all-star game in Philly, even for something.
01:09:07And I realized it's a borderline thing, but like, I wonder what starting pitcher looks
01:09:11like for hall of fame voting down the line at some point.
01:09:14Uh, does, I don't think you and I care about all-star game totals.
01:09:18But some people who vote still are like, Oh, he was to four all-stars or five all-stars
01:09:22or six.
01:09:23I think Zach has been to three, four would have helped five.
01:09:26Like whoever knows what, what, what along the way, John, I'm going to give an error.
01:09:30It's an error.
01:09:31I usually do while being with you, uh, at an all-star game.
01:09:35Uh, and MLB doesn't like it.
01:09:37I write every year because they do the draft from there.
01:09:40How do you not allow trades at the draft, uh, of regular draft picks?
01:09:44We saw that the pirates offered around, uh, what was it?
01:09:47Pick 24 or something like that.
01:09:50Yeah.
01:09:50Or I'm sorry, John 34 for correcting me 34, uh, to see if they could get a relief picture
01:09:56what they did.
01:09:56I think the lefty Brandon Isert was part of, uh, that, uh, they, they, they got for it.
01:10:01I don't know.
01:10:02The rays were second on the clock.
01:10:04I think the pirates were fifth or sixth.
01:10:06They're doing a new partnership with NBC.
01:10:09You know, it's at the same time.
01:10:11First of all, we are great at cannibalizing our own sport.
01:10:14We're the only one that has the draft at the same time we're playing games.
01:10:17We're the only one that has like hall of fame at the same time we're playing games.
01:10:20By the way, the hall of fame is always within striking distance of the trade deadline.
01:10:24So it's hard for people to break away like you or me to go to celebrate someone who's
01:10:29there.
01:10:29I don't understand all of that, but also I just don't understand.
01:10:32Like, what if you had heard, you'd got a new partnership with the, with NBC, instead
01:10:37of turning on a game of the world cup or doing something else, John Heyman on social media
01:10:42sends out a missive that says the rays are in deep discussions to use the second pick
01:10:48and prospects to get Hunter Goodman.
01:10:50Would you turn on the draft?
01:10:51I know I would, you know, if the pirates were looking for a relief pitcher and they
01:10:56were floating the fifth pick for something, we're not going to be interested in this draft
01:11:01because the players now disappear for two or three years to go to the minor leagues.
01:11:05Even the best of them are going to be down there for two years.
01:11:07You've got to juice this up.
01:11:09I would go further and I, I, this takes more time, but I would make it that the teams, the
01:11:15top 10 market teams can protect, I don't know, 30 players, 35 players who've been in
01:11:20their organization at least two years and everyone, and the 10 teams with the lowest
01:11:23market can either draft the player or draft the player off one of those rosters.
01:11:28If you really want this to be interesting, you, the only way to make it interesting when
01:11:33the players don't come immediately to the major leagues is you have to do something to
01:11:38make it viable for this year.
01:11:40And if I could draft someone off of someone else's roster or trade for someone off of someone
01:11:43else's roster, the draft would be more interesting.
01:11:47Yeah, it would be nice if the players came to, I mean, I remember when Mike Trout was
01:11:51there in 2009, it was very interesting.
01:11:53I, you know, I kind of get it.
01:11:55They're all kind of semi-negotiating or a lot of them are, I, I, oh, I think we have deals
01:11:59with many of them already.
01:12:01You know, it would be nice if the players were there.
01:12:04I agree with you.
01:12:05It would be nice to have it as a day rather than have all the teams playing that day.
01:12:10Yeah.
01:12:11I have to think more about all those different trades that you suggested.
01:12:14It certainly would spice things up.
01:12:17But yeah, it's come a ways from when, I mean, I remember, I don't know, 20 years ago when
01:12:23I went to a guy's house on Long Island, Craig Hanson.
01:12:26And, you know, I don't, I think that, I don't think when it wasn't on television, it was like
01:12:31nothing.
01:12:31He got a phone call.
01:12:33And so they have improved.
01:12:35It's improved a lot.
01:12:36It's, it's come a long ways, but yeah, still got some work to do.
01:12:40Well, we're working on a new CBA.
01:12:41Get that in there in the new CBA if you really want to make this more exciting.
01:12:45John and I appreciate, Tommy Hogan was off this week, Ryan Sampson jumping in as our
01:12:51producer this week.
01:12:52Thank you so much, Ryan.
01:12:53Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, please rate and review us.
01:12:57It does help the show.
01:12:59So does watching the New York Post Sports YouTube page.
01:13:02And please continue to stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
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