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00:00By the way, who do you guys got tomorrow night, Judge or Raleigh?
00:03Not your pick, but who's going to win?
00:05I think Judge will win.
00:06I think Judge wins.
00:07I'm with you.
00:08I think he wins kind of easily.
00:12Really?
00:13Not in a blowout, but, like, maybe two-thirds.
00:16I haven't asked anyone.
00:18I would actually probably – I mean, I didn't study it.
00:20I probably would vote for Raleigh because I just think catching it's just so hard,
00:26and it's so valuable to have that catcher.
00:27But, I mean, to me, it's basically a coin flip.
00:30In my mind, I think the general set consensus kind of leans toward Judge, I think.
00:37And I don't blame it.
00:38Yeah, that's the feeling I get.
00:39You know, I was on Judge, and I think the numbers just mathematically
00:42or overwhelmingly in his favor.
00:44But then when I was covering the Mariners in the postseason
00:46and watching Raleigh every day and how much he means to that team,
00:50I mean, that guy is more than just a good catcher.
00:53He runs the game from behind the plate.
00:55Any switch hits, 60 home runs.
00:57Crazy.
00:57And it's never been tougher to do that job.
01:00Good point.
01:01That job.
01:02You're right.
01:02You know, like physically.
01:04Yeah.
01:04To catch velocity, spin, to have an individual game plan for every hitter
01:10for each plate appearance mentally.
01:13And he led the American League in innings catching.
01:15It wasn't like, oh, my goodness, he's just kind of like a part-time catcher.
01:19I think there's a great – it's interesting.
01:21There was a bunch of us at dinner last night playing under over in a casino,
01:24you know, how many votes Raleigh got.
01:26And I set it at 11 and a half.
01:29I think you're about right.
01:32Yeah.
01:33Because I took 12.
01:34I think he's going to get 12 first place votes.
01:35It's underrated how valuable it is to have a catcher who hits.
01:39I think the four best hitting catchers were the final four teams.
01:42Now, that may just be coincidental, but if you look at Buster Posey's career,
01:47I mean, Mike Piazza, if he could catch it all or throw it all, you know,
01:50they won a lot of games.
01:52He didn't end up winning the World Series.
01:53But I think it's very, very valuable.
01:55Because a lot of teams have catchers who are not, you know, like –
01:59I mean, the Cleveland guys are a big, you know, scream example.
02:03But the average OPS plus is like – it was like 90 this year,
02:08thanks to Raleigh.
02:09But normally it's below 90, so you got a catcher with a 150 or a 160.
02:15I think it's a huge deal.
02:17Our friend Tom Verducci is joining us, John,
02:20to discuss probably the end of the season, which was great,
02:23the World Series and where we are now in the hot stove.
02:26Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing from Tom, very eloquent spokesman.
02:30You see him on TV all the time on MLB Network, on Fox,
02:34and I've worked with him in three places.
02:37He's been a better writer than me in all three places.
02:40And he's terrific commenting on baseball.
02:44He knows the ins and outs.
02:46And I think that's the first time we've actually had Tom on.
02:49So I'm really looking forward to this.
02:51Yeah, Tom's wrap-up of the World Series every year in Sports Illustrated
02:54is one of the highlights of writing, sports writing, baseball writing every year.
02:57Everyone should give that a read, and we'll talk to him about that and more.
03:01John and I are going to trigger the hot stove.
03:04But lots on the Mets and Yankees will play hit and error at the end
03:06if you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Hammond.
03:14John, we're both in Vegas.
03:15We're both in our hotel room.
03:17The final day of the general manager's meetings is today, Wednesday.
03:21Very little action so far.
03:23We're getting the sparring.
03:24I'm getting a feeling that there's a lot of teams that would actually like to spend some money this offseason
03:30and go for it a little more than maybe traditional beyond the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, etc.
03:37We're hearing about lots and lots of teams, Toronto, Seattle, Boston, even Pittsburgh, Miami a little bit, etc.
03:46Obviously, the New York teams are going to be active.
03:48Why don't we start with the Mets, just because David Stearns is actually here
03:52and did speak on Tuesday to a group of reporters.
03:57Am I strange to think that the most interesting thing he said in that period, John,
04:04was that center field Carson Benj is going to come into spring training with a chance to make the team.
04:11The Mets do not have an obvious center fielder.
04:13David Stearns loves Tyrone Taylor and mentioned him again for the center field job.
04:18I mean, if Tyrone Taylor is anything more than your fourth or fifth outfielder
04:20and you're the Mets with a $300 million payroll going into the season,
04:24I think you've probably failed again to address the situation.
04:29Do you think that Carson Benj is the Bubba Crosby of this offseason
04:33so that you don't seem desperate that you need to figure out a center fielder
04:38between now and the beginning of the regular season?
04:41Or do you think – this is David Stearns.
04:44He's going to open up jobs for young players and give it a go.
04:48Yeah, you know, I'm not going to say he's the – was it Bubba Crosby?
04:51Was that the guy's name?
04:52Yeah.
04:52I mean, this guy's a legit top prospect.
04:54Yeah, he's going to be a great player at some point.
04:56I mean, obviously, right, he's a top prospect.
04:59But I can't see how they don't get a center fielder, right?
05:05At this point, Benj hasn't had a lot of reps in the minor leagues.
05:11So I think that would be a little bit shocking if they didn't go out
05:15and get some kind of a center fielder who could at least tide them over
05:18until Benj is ready.
05:20You know, I think they're talking to Bellinger.
05:23They will be talking to Bellinger anyway.
05:24And, you know, that's a guy who really fits the team.
05:28You know, this is not a small market team.
05:30This is a big – not only a big market, but a big spending team.
05:34I'm sure Steve Cohen isn't happy the way last year's team performed.
05:38It was a disaster.
05:40I know, you know, when you win more than you lose, it's still a disaster
05:44if you have a $340 million payroll with the expectations that they had.
05:48I think that will be a major disappointment if they don't come in with a center fielder.
05:52They got a lot of work to do.
05:54I mean, they really do.
05:56It's not just run prevention.
05:57It's everything.
05:58You know, two out of their best four players are now free agents, right, Diaz and Alonso.
06:03And he talked about how they'd like to have them back.
06:06But the reality is they don't have them back now.
06:09And they don't have a right-handed power threat who's going to start for the team.
06:13And they don't have a closer.
06:14And they don't really have much of a bullpen.
06:16And they don't have a center fielder.
06:18They get a lot of work to do.
06:19Fortunately, I think David Sturridge knows what he's doing.
06:22Obviously, one out of two years has been great so far with the Mets.
06:26So, obviously, it hasn't been perfect.
06:27Steve Cohen willing to spend.
06:29I'm not buying that Carson Bench is going to go in as someone with a great chance to win the starting job in center field.
06:37You know, John, you kind of took me a place I wanted to talk to you about, which is last year at this time, the Mets not only were coming off of making it to game six of the NLCS and really having this kind of great grimace, OMG, good vibe, good success on the field.
06:56They felt like they were very much set up for the near future, especially they then go and spend $765 million on Soto at the winter meetings.
07:05It felt like they were heading to a good place.
07:09I don't think they're necessarily heading to a bad place.
07:13But at best, they're in a similar situation.
07:15Can you say you're in a similar situation with a better farm system in Soto and some of these young pitchers breaking through?
07:22I get it.
07:24That's what David Stearns proposed yesterday.
07:27But, John, I hear what you say, and I feel it also, which is you're coming off of a bad year where you're looking around and now you start worrying about the age of Nimmo and Lindor.
07:38You worry about the defensive flexibility once Soto is always in right field.
07:43And all these places that, John, I think you glanced on it.
07:47It's not just, yes, they've got to rebuild an entire bullpen.
07:49I mean, they've got to bring in like five or six new arms to this.
07:53They don't have a right-hand reliever they like on the roster right now.
07:58Not only hear about Alaska Braz about, you know, they've got a lot of work to do for a team that 12 months ago we felt really good about.
08:06Do you feel worse about the team today?
08:10Well, certainly they felt great about the team a year ago.
08:12And they went to the LCS.
08:14They played decently against the Dodgers.
08:17They won more games against the Dodgers than the Yankees did in their series.
08:22They had rallied.
08:23It looked like Vientos was going to be at least a hitting star.
08:27He clearly took a step back for whatever reason last year.
08:32Yeah, two good things that they've gone for.
08:35They have Steve Cohen's willingness to spend and the fact that he has a big payroll.
08:41That's what I'm going to count as one thing.
08:42And the other thing is they do have great prospects, right?
08:45They are ranked high for whatever that means.
08:47The rankings don't always come to fruition, but they've got five guys who are really, you know, top 100 prospects or maybe even more than that.
08:56McLean looked great.
08:58I think Tong has potential.
09:00Maybe he needs to get a breaking ball.
09:02Certainly an important thing.
09:03Sprott looked good.
09:04So, I mean, there are some positives, but, you know, I'm pointing out some positives now.
09:09It's kind of just a counter a little bit.
09:11And I believe there are these positives, but in the short term, it does not look great, right?
09:17I mean, we're missing whole positions.
09:19We're missing basically a whole bullpen.
09:21So, I think they look better in the long term than the short term.
09:25You know, and John, I've got to say one of the things that makes me feel suspicious, leery, is I think we both have high regard for David Stearns.
09:36But essentially, he's now one for two in off seasons.
09:39And he has a lot to do here.
09:43And as much, and I, of course, agree with you that having Steve Cohen's wallet has great benefits, but he isn't going to solve everything on the Juan Soto level.
09:53He's going to have to get the secondary stuff right that he didn't get right last year.
10:00He's going to have to prove that, you know, outside of the Brewer Foundation, you know, the structure, which he helped create.
10:06But maybe there were support staff there that were really important in what they did.
10:11He's going to have to prove that he's kind of the wizard who can bring this and make it work on a pretty annual basis.
10:17John, before we flip to Yankees, let's deal with the one last thing with the Mets, because it's kind of the most important thing with the Mets this offseason.
10:25And you've mentioned it a bunch of times.
10:27You said they were two of the four best players on the team, and that's Alonzo and Diaz.
10:31And where you think we're headed right now?
10:33John, if I had to make a case, I actually think they need Diaz more than Alonzo.
10:39And that's no rip on Pete Alonzo, who is second in RBIs in the majors, fifth in extra base hits, eighth in homers.
10:46He is, in a time where it's hard to hit a ball, he is just below the best home run hitters in the sport,
10:52which is to say he's a top five homer hitter, you know, for consistency.
10:56He could hit, he could hit, he could hit.
10:58But I just don't know how the Mets function if they don't kind of throw the anchor of their bullpen back in and build around it when they have to do so much else.
11:08Yeah, you can't argue with that.
11:09I mean, Diaz was the best reliever, certainly in the National League.
11:12He's going to win the, we're right here in Las Vegas, they're going to have an award for the top relievers.
11:17He's clearly going to win the award for the top reliever in the National League.
11:20There's really no negative to a great closer, so obviously I can't really argue with that.
11:27But I am wondering what they're going to do if Alonzo is not retained.
11:32You know, he did hit 38 home runs.
11:34He did have 126 RBIs.
11:36He is right-handed, right?
11:38They're better hitters.
11:39The other better hitters right now, the only great hitters are left-handed on this team, right, who are starters, right?
11:45We've got Soto, we have Nimmo, and of course Lindor, better left-handed, and it's more often left-handed than right-handed.
11:55You know, obviously Alvarez has got potential.
11:58Vientos, I think he can regain something and get back out there and do something important.
12:04But to come in with Vientos and Alvarez as your right-handed threats and that's it, you know, can't do that.
12:10I'm just not sure, where do they go to replace Alonzo?
12:13I'm looking at that first-base list.
12:16You've got some lefty bats.
12:17You've got some aging righty bats.
12:19You don't really have anybody who can replace Alonzo.
12:22Do they do it in multiple other areas and figure it out?
12:25I don't know.
12:26But, I mean, yeah, I can't argue that Diaz is a bigger need at this moment than Alonzo.
12:34Yeah, so flip over because you mentioned the biggest name.
12:38But just so the listeners, viewers know, Brian Cashman is not at these winter meetings.
12:46He's set to have a personal issue that he is addressing.
12:50I believe he's going to talk to reporters via maybe a Zoom today.
12:55But, like, no Yankee official has talked.
12:57Obviously, John and I still on background talk to Yankee officials, get a flavor of what's going on.
13:04And you mentioned the big thing.
13:06Their winter falls into place if they could re-sign Bellinger.
13:10Like, it feels it's not perfect.
13:13They still have a lot to do.
13:14But if they re-sign Bellinger, they could line up a team for next year.
13:18And so then they're just building around what was a pretty strong team, a 94-win team.
13:23I think – I don't know if you agree with me.
13:25It feels like if we played the American League playoffs 100 times, the Yankees would go to the World Series 15 or so times of that.
13:33Like, they were good.
13:34There was a real toss-up in the American League at the top.
13:37So they have a good core that stays that way if they could keep Bellinger.
13:42I sense they're not on Tucker.
13:44You know, will they talk?
13:46Yeah, the Yankees talk to everyone.
13:48I don't think Hal Steinbrenner is in the $400 million business again.
13:51I think he wants to drive this payroll under $300 million.
13:55John, take that wherever you want.
13:56I think Bellinger is so kind of 1A, 1B, 1C for them to get done to then kind of be like, okay, how much money do we have left?
14:07What else do we want to address next?
14:10Yeah, first on Tucker.
14:10To me, it makes no sense.
14:12Now, of course, in free agency, you never know what's going to happen.
14:15I don't see how Tucker is really a fit.
14:17They already have the best right fielder in the game.
14:20Certainly, you know, you could put Tucker at left field or figure it out, something like that.
14:24Maybe you can even play center.
14:26But I don't see him adding that kind of money to the payroll, particularly when they, and I'm with you.
14:32Last week, you mentioned a starting pitcher.
14:34It would be nice for them to get a starting pitcher.
14:36I've heard they liked EMI.
14:37That would be a big expense.
14:38But I think that would be, I wouldn't say luxury.
14:42I think they could use a good starting pitcher.
14:46And beyond that, what's their bullpen?
14:48Their bullpen was not very good last year overall.
14:50And they're losing Weaver and Williams.
14:53Now, obviously, they had some bad moments, too.
14:56But these are talented pitchers.
14:58Williams was great in the past for the Brewers.
15:00He looked better at the end for the Yankees.
15:02Weaver, at some good moments last year, was really good the year before.
15:07These are two losses.
15:09Maybe people will say, well, they weren't great last year.
15:11And that's fair.
15:12But the bullpen wasn't great either.
15:15And they definitely need to augment the bullpen.
15:17They need to, I believe, and I'm with you on this.
15:20You've come to convince me on this.
15:24They do need a starter as well.
15:26Those are bigger needs than Tucker.
15:28Let's see what Spencer Jones can be.
15:31Can Dominguez be better?
15:32Can he play center field?
15:33Maybe.
15:34I don't think Bellinger is as imperative as Diaz is for the Mets.
15:39Or even Alonzo is for the Mets.
15:42You know, maybe Spencer Jones can do it.
15:44Maybe he can.
15:45He's got great speed.
15:47He's got power.
15:48Obviously, he was a little bit up and down last year.
15:50He had a great few weeks and then slumped after that.
15:54But, you know, I'm not going to say, and I think it's dangerous if you say we have to
15:58get this guy.
15:59I'm not going to say that.
16:00I think he's a good fit for them.
16:02I think he's an even better fit for the Mets.
16:05But, you know, I think there probably are alternatives there for the Yankees.
16:10The pitching is where I would go for the Yankees.
16:13If they, you know, if they don't get Bellinger, they already had the best offense in baseball.
16:17You can live with the third best offense in baseball.
16:20The pitching needs to be better.
16:22So, John, I, I, on the pitching, you know, I agree because we discussed it.
16:26I wrote a column about it this week.
16:28You convinced me.
16:28Yeah, you convinced me.
16:30I think, I think that my sense is they see it as a place to get a pitcher.
16:38I know you mentioned Emai.
16:40I get a stronger feeling they want to kind of like plug and play a pitcher.
16:44You know, like, like if it's somebody from Japan, it might be somebody who's coming back
16:48from Japan, like Cody Ponce or, or Anthony.
16:51Like one.
16:52And by the way, I don't want to aggregate it.
16:53I haven't heard they're tied.
16:54But somebody who could imagine beginning, not costing a ton, beginning the season in
16:59the rotation.
16:59And if everything went perfect, would be able to flow into the bullpen as the year went
17:05on.
17:05I don't think that's their need.
17:07I think believing that you're starting pitching is all going to go perfect.
17:12That the four healthy guys now, the Schlittler, Warren, Freed Hill are going to stay healthy
17:17through spring training in the beginning of the season.
17:20Cole and Rodon are just going to show up on May 1st.
17:23It's going to go perfect.
17:24The young guys in the minor leagues, you know, like Elmer Cruz Rodriguez and Carlos
17:28LaGrange are going to be like Schlittler last year and just take off and be ready on the
17:32day you think they're going to be ready.
17:33And Clark Schmidt's going to be sitting there as their July 31st trade on August 1st, ready
17:38to come back from Tommy John surgery.
17:40And this all is just going to go like this and be fine.
17:43I think that's a mistake for a top tier team.
17:45I think you got to go out and get a starter.
17:47And if you ever have an uncomfortable situation as the season's going along, figure it out.
17:52But I would go get a real starting pitcher as part of this offseason and not getting a
18:00situation where you're looking left and right and dealing with whoever the Alan Winans is
18:04of the minute.
18:06John, you as a way to finish this, you mentioned the bullpen.
18:13The bullpen is going to like the bullpen is a little bit at this time of year, like it
18:18is at the July 31st trade deadline.
18:21Everyone can convince themselves they need one or two.
18:23I'm with you.
18:24The Yankees need no fewer than two.
18:26It would be great if one of them was a power lefty to kind of compliment the finesse lefty
18:31of Tim Hill.
18:33Do you assume that the way things went?
18:37I have two questions for you.
18:40Again, as somebody who reads the market well, I sense Devin Williams is done with the Yankees.
18:45Do you and do you think there's any chance that a plan B that if Cody Bellinger is suddenly
18:55a Met or a Philly or a Dodger could plan B be at all?
19:00Well, let's sign Edwin Diaz and like be great at the end.
19:05Then you have Bednar and Diaz for the last six outs.
19:08And with Bednar ready to be a free agent after 2026, you have your answer for a while back
19:13there.
19:13Yeah, I mean, I'm not ruling much out in free agency.
19:18Anything can happen.
19:19I'm kind of with you on Williams.
19:20I think he got more comfortable as things went, but he can get a closing role elsewhere.
19:25We saw that the Dodgers via the Athletic are interested.
19:28Once again, they were last winter.
19:30You know, if you've got a choice of the Dodgers or anyone else, no knock on the Yankees, you
19:34got a good chance of picking the Dodgers.
19:36He didn't have a choice last time.
19:38Word was he would have liked to have gone to the Dodgers.
19:40Yankees probably weren't number one on his list due to the beard situation.
19:44They rectified that for him.
19:46He still didn't seem too comfortable until the last several weeks of the season.
19:50So I can see that.
19:51I mean, I'm not going to advocate against anybody getting in with Diaz, any big market
19:55team.
19:55He was the best closer in baseball last year.
19:59And Chapman was pretty good, too.
20:01They're obviously not getting Chapman.
20:02He's on the Red Sox and doesn't really love the Yankees anyway.
20:05Anyway, you know, I think Diaz, you know, would be great, certainly with Bednar.
20:11I think that's probably not a great chance of happening.
20:16I think they like what Bednar did.
20:18There are a ton of guys out there who closed in the past and have been good closers, whether
20:25it be Suarez or Keller or Kenley Jansen.
20:29But I know people are knocking this free agent list.
20:33I think overall it's decent.
20:34Obviously, there's no Otani, there's no Soto, but I think overall it's decent, but it's
20:38great in the relief pitching.
20:40They should be able to bulk up that relief core, which I think would be imperative.
20:45And they obviously need a left-hander.
20:47I mean, you can't, Tim Hill did well.
20:49He was good.
20:49He's a good pitcher.
20:51It's a good bargain at $3 million.
20:53They need a left-hander.
20:56I don't think there's any question about that.
20:59Yeah.
20:59You know, John, you mentioned the name that I would use to finish this block, which is Chapman.
21:04And also maybe Zach Britton.
21:05I think the Yankees didn't like the experience of having top-of-the-market, closer money guys
21:11on the roster.
21:12And they always feel they'll find their Clay Holmes, Luke Weaver kind of guy there.
21:17So I suspect they'll use their money in another way.
21:20Of course, it's all TBD.
21:23What we know right now is joining us next on the show is our friend, our partner at MLB Network,
21:29plus Fox and Sports Illustrated, Tom Fiducci.
21:31He joins us next on the show.
21:38John and I are so thrilled to be joined by our friend, our colleague at MLB Network.
21:42He's also at Fox Sports, a longtime Sports Illustrated writer.
21:47And Tom's up for the Lifetime Achievement Award for Baseball Writer this offseason.
21:52He's one of the three people on the ballot.
21:54He should be the Hall of Famer from this group.
21:58It should have happened a long time ago because he's one of the best among us.
22:03Tom, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
22:05Yeah.
22:05Thanks for having me, guys.
22:06Tom, I do think one of the highlights of the World Series is I think you've taken the
22:12baton pass from Roger Angel and your wrap up of the World Series is a must read at the
22:18end.
22:19You could kind of like relive it all.
22:21And so I almost want to ask a broad question.
22:24We're a few weeks beyond what was a thrilling World Series and a memorable World Series on
22:30a bunch of different levels.
22:32You know, the Dodgers winning two stunning games to finish this when it felt like the
22:37Blue Jays outplayed them in every way for about seven games.
22:42With some reflection time now, what sticks out to you about this?
22:46Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for that.
22:48Roger Angel, there's no higher compliment in my book, the master of baseball writing, just
22:53writing in general.
22:54What stands out to me is I have a hard time in my head saying this was the best World
22:59Series ever because I think I just need to let it sit for a while.
23:03But I, Joel, I can definitely tell you it's in the conversation.
23:05I mean, it's hard for me to top 2016 because of the history of the Cubs and at that time
23:10the Indians brought into that game.
23:11And of course, that 17 minute pregnant pause of a rain delay, a tie game, ninth inning, game
23:17seven World Series.
23:18It was just so dramatic.
23:20But this was different in a way that I think it captured a lot of casual fans.
23:25Like the ratings were really good for this World Series.
23:28And you thought a Canadian team, the Dodgers, you know, been there, done that back again.
23:33But I think the games were so compelling.
23:35And this is what stands out to me.
23:37As far as a World Series that went back and forth, where you changed your mind almost
23:41like an on an hourly basis, who was going to win the World Series, especially in game
23:46seven.
23:47It may be the best that I've ever seen because it was dramatic on almost an inning by inning
23:53basis.
23:54I can't remember a series where there's so many, you know, great defensive plays, base
23:58running plays.
23:59I love the fact that the Blue Jays put the ball in play so much.
24:02We've made the pace of the game so good.
24:04So, yeah, in terms of drama and the way the game was played, I think this has got to be
24:09one of the best, at least that I've seen.
24:11You mentioned all the great plays, all the excitement at the end, particularly game seven.
24:17What's one or two that really stand out for you?
24:19I mean, there are some obvious ones in my mind, but I'd like to hear your perspective
24:24on really.
24:25I mean, there were three or four plays that really would have won it for Toronto, it felt
24:31like.
24:31But what stands out for you and why?
24:34Yeah, I agree.
24:34For me, the number one is the Rojas home run.
24:37Miguel Rojas is batting and everybody's kind of paying attention to the guy on deck,
24:41Shohei Tani.
24:41And you're thinking, at least I was, there's no way that Jeff Hoffman can walk Miguel Rojas.
24:48You just have to groove a pitch down the middle of the plate.
24:50Now, I would never groove a slider on a 3-2 to Miguel Rojas.
24:53That has to be a fastball.
24:55Not expecting home run there at all.
24:57A little reminiscent of the Rajai Davis home run, right, against Aroldis Chapman.
25:02Not the kind of guy you're thinking home run.
25:04Base hit, maybe, double, okay.
25:06That was just flat out stunning.
25:09And I hated the 3-2 slider from Hoffman.
25:12You know, the crowd just, you know, you guys were there.
25:15You know that they were on the verge of winning the World Series there and just have it taken
25:19away.
25:19I thought after the home run, the Dodgers were going to win that game.
25:22It was just a feeling that I had that this team was not going to be denied getting it
25:27to extra innings.
25:28And then, of course, the Pajas catch in center field.
25:31I mean, guys, I'm next to the dugout there.
25:34When the bases are loaded one out, Pajas is sitting next to me with his hoodie on.
25:38He's as engaged in the game as I am at that point.
25:41And Danny Lehman, the bench coach, comes running down and basically says, get your butt in the
25:45game.
25:46And it's like, where's my glove?
25:48Take the hoodie off.
25:48Where's my hat?
25:49I mean, it's like they pulled the guy out of the stands.
25:51And of course, baseball, the way it is, the ball actually finds him.
25:55They put him in, obviously, because he had the better arm than Tommy Edmond, protecting
25:58the sacrifice fly situation.
26:00But the next batter hits that fly ball.
26:02I didn't think Kike Hernandez was going to catch it.
26:04I mean, if he did, I mean, that was twice the Willie Mays catch going over his head and
26:08running back face first toward the wall.
26:11I really was paying attention to Kike and didn't see in real time Pajas flying in there until
26:18the very end.
26:19I could not believe it.
26:20And then seeing the replay, he was actually playing shallow center field.
26:23He ran 121 feet and then jumped in the air over his left fielder.
26:29It's just an amazing play.
26:31Listen, Willie Mays is Willie Mays.
26:33The catch is historic in 54.
26:35I actually think given the circumstances, because that was game one, that catch in 54,
26:39I think it's the greatest catch in World Series history.
26:42It's certainly the best that I've seen with everything on the line.
26:45He saved the World Series.
26:46He doesn't catch that ball.
26:48Ernie Clement is a World Series legend.
26:50He's the MVP.
26:51And the Blue Jays have the first World Championship in 32 years.
26:54History changing catch.
26:55I was blown away by that.
26:57You know, Tom, it does stand out to me.
26:59You know, you're mentioning Pajas off the bench.
27:02Miguel Rojas, it's the way you began your story.
27:05I'm trying to remember.
27:06I think you mentioned, I don't think there was a period he hadn't started in 26 days.
27:10He didn't have a hit for like 31.
27:12To me, he's like the modern Luis Soho.
27:15He could just like do nothing for a month and field everything and put the bat on the ball.
27:20And Soho had a winning hit, obviously, in the World Series also.
27:24And we're talking about small players on this behemoth, Andy Pajas and Miguel Rojas.
27:31So why don't I ask you the killer question that got asked from – it's been really asked for two years, but especially this year.
27:37Are the Dodgers ruining baseball because they're doing that and they got, as you mentioned, the guy on deck, which everyone had their eye on,
27:45and Yamamoto, who did Randy Johnson-esque stuff in this World Series.
27:51And I'm assuming Sasaki will be great at some point also.
27:54And who knows who they get this offseason from the Kyle Tucker, Edwin Diaz line.
28:00Take it where you want, Tom.
28:01Are they ruining baseball?
28:03No, I think it's great for the game.
28:04I think they're a model for everybody else in baseball.
28:07Of course, they have more resources than everybody else.
28:09I get it.
28:10Who else has two charter planes during the course of the season, right?
28:13The players have their own plane, staff and coaches and analysts and whatnot on another.
28:19I don't think anybody else does that.
28:21The way they draft and develop throughout the minor leagues, that's a model.
28:24It's not just they have money to spend.
28:26Yeah, that's a huge advantage.
28:27I get it.
28:28But you bring up a good point.
28:29I love the Soho comparison as well.
28:31Let's face it, when you're playing a baseball game, you can't call timeout and have your
28:35best hitter go up there and take the at-bat.
28:37And that was Rojas hitting the nine hole, right?
28:39I love the fact that given all their resources, it comes down to after game five, Dodgers are
28:44one game away from losing the World Series.
28:48And Dave Roberts tells Miguel Rojas, you're playing game six.
28:51Now, there was no reason to play him.
28:53He hadn't had a base hit literally in a month.
28:55But he said, this guy means so much to the team.
28:58He's our glue guy.
28:59He's been a great teammate all year.
29:01I love the energy that he brings.
29:03I'm not losing the World Series without at least giving him a chance to play.
29:06Now, there was nobody in the analytics department who told Dave Roberts, hey, this guy's got
29:10great numbers against this pitcher.
29:11He needs to play.
29:12No, it was just a gut feeling by Dave Roberts.
29:15And I love the fact that based on what Miggy Rojas gave them all year long, he put him in
29:19the lineup.
29:20Not expecting a home run, of course.
29:22But I love those kind of stories.
29:23And Pius as well.
29:24The guy who was, what, four for 50 or something in the postseason.
29:28I mean, an automatic out.
29:29And he gives us an all-time moment.
29:31So the Dodgers do cover a lot of mistakes, if you will.
29:34And especially with injuries, with depth.
29:36And I get that.
29:38But I think you look at this team, the way they run things, the way they cover themselves
29:42in the minor league system that they have.
29:43And they've done a great job.
29:44If you look at their drafts, especially with pitchers, finding guys who are available
29:48later in the round.
29:49And just their player development machine makes them better than everybody else thinks they
29:54are.
29:54I think it's great for the game.
29:56I think it is a modern dynasty.
29:58You know, I love the fact that this team stayed hungry and wanted to repeat.
30:03And that was something that you guys saw with the New York Yankees.
30:05They were never satisfied.
30:07They were always, like, trying to get there first.
30:09And I get the sense that that's what the Dodgers felt this year.
30:12Yeah, I'm with you.
30:13They're not ruining baseball.
30:14It's a legit dynasty.
30:15I'm going to put you on the spot here because I loved your story about Pius and the hoodie
30:19on the bench.
30:19You've got a unique perspective, I guess, along with Ken Rosenthal, so it's not 100% unique.
30:25Tell us what that's like.
30:26I mean, we're at the games, but we're just watching.
30:29You're actually on the bench.
30:31What is that like?
30:32What are some of the unusual things, if you can think of, again, I'm putting you on the
30:36spot here, that you've seen?
30:38Do people, are they interacting with you?
30:39Because you're the only non-employee that's allowed there on the bench with the team.
30:44Yeah, actually, it's pretty cool.
30:46There's a lot of times, obviously, people that I know, players, coaches, whoever, that's
30:49down there, I can have a conversation with them.
30:51It's usually not long, but maybe ask a question or just something that happened in the course
30:56of the game, like you would turn to a buddy and say, hey, what about that play?
30:59It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.
31:02The perspective is really cool.
31:03I'll give you one example.
31:05Watching Yamamoto in between innings, I don't know any other starting pitcher who never goes
31:11back into the clubhouse.
31:12He is always on the bench, and not only just on the bench, he's always first sitting with
31:18Mark Pryor and the translator, his translator, Yoshihiro Sabota, translates, and they go over
31:25the next three hitters coming up the next inning.
31:27He's got this book that he's got with notations in, Yamamoto does, and he's also writing in
31:33that book, putting new entries in there, and he's referring to that book every single inning.
31:37He is so locked in, and then he'll get up and he'll pantomime his delivery in the dugout.
31:42It's a unique, I think it's one of the most efficient deliveries in baseball.
31:46He is so engaged.
31:48Like I said, he never goes back into the clubhouse.
31:50Unlike Otani, of course, we waited like, what, three or four minutes for him to come back
31:54to the mound there in game seven.
31:56But watching guys' habits, like in between at-bats, who's talking to who.
32:02Otani's really good as a leadoff hitter, coming back and telling guys what he saw from the
32:06pitcher in his first at-bat of a game.
32:08Mookie Betts, same thing.
32:10I love to see the interaction among the players in the dugout.
32:13It's really cool.
32:14I wouldn't say it's not rah-rah like a college team, but it's more like guys studying their
32:20iPads, sharing information, that type of stuff.
32:23You know, Tom, being with them in so many Octobers, especially the last two where they
32:28went the whole way, I agree with you and John.
32:31I don't think they're ruining baseball.
32:33I agree with you.
32:34I think they're setting a path for what to do, including what you're just talking about,
32:38which is how they behave on the bench, Yamamoto.
32:42And look, I've mentioned this a bunch in different forums.
32:45Watching Mookie Betts and Freddie Freeman come out every game day, like four to five hours
32:50before a game and take extra work.
32:52I mean, these are two guys going to Cooperstown and they're going there mainly because of the
32:57other side of the ball, especially Freddie.
32:59And to just see these great players in their 30s, in a workload era, out there doing extra
33:06work, to me, it's inspiring.
33:08And I also made that analogy, which is, you know, the thing with the Jeter Yankees was
33:14last year's championship never mattered after the parade.
33:17And these guys seem like they have the same mindset.
33:20I wonder, as somebody who's kind of obviously around them, what do you think about it all?
33:24I think that's a great call.
33:26And I think you watch Mookie Betts and the way he turned himself from a goal glove right
33:30fielder into probably a goal glove shortstop, but at least an elite defender at shortstop.
33:35It's amazing.
33:35And it's because of hard work.
33:36He's out there literally every day.
33:37I mean, even on the off days in the World Series, he's out there doing, going through
33:41his progressions and shortstop.
33:43It's really impressive.
33:44Freddie, the best story I get from Freddie when he first got to the Dodgers, everybody
33:47had their own iPad and they'd come back and they would just get lost in their own
33:51iPad.
33:51And Freddie said, we have to have like a limit on iPads.
33:55Let's just have like four or five of them and let's talk among ourselves rather than
33:59just burying our heads in a singular iPad.
34:01Great team player.
34:03Yeah, I think the character of the team really stands out to me.
34:06It does take the veterans, I think, as leaders of the team.
34:10And the Yankees, as you mentioned, had that.
34:12So I don't think they're ruining baseball.
34:14I think it's great for the game to have somebody that other teams can shoot for.
34:18And what's interesting too, guys, is the way, you know, I don't know that you can say they
34:23turned it on in October, but they certainly were the healthiest in October, right?
34:27And that I think was by design.
34:29It was a few years ago, if you remember, they, we were talking about greatest team of all
34:33time.
34:34They ran up, I think, 111 wins, right?
34:36They tried to max out their number of wins, get home field advantage throughout.
34:40Well, the Padres knocked them out, like in the first round.
34:43That's what they got for 111 wins.
34:44It doesn't get you much in the postseason.
34:46And I think they realized there, it's all about getting to October healthy.
34:51And remember, they had to go through the wild card route.
34:53No big deal.
34:54They played Cincinnati, got rid of them quickly.
34:56It was actually good for them, I thought.
34:58But they realized now, you don't have to win 100 games plus.
35:01And I think you look at baseball now, we've gone two straight years without anybody winning
35:05100 games.
35:05And I think that the message now is workload management, especially with pitching.
35:10And the way they got their pitching to October healthy and on point, that was not a mistake.
35:15It was not a happenstance.
35:16This is the way they built it out during the course of the season.
35:19And again, they're a model for baseball that way.
35:22I'm with you guys on Mookie and Freddie.
35:25They're outstanding.
35:26There's another guy in the Dodgers who's pretty good.
35:28We really haven't dived into yet.
35:30And Shohei Otani, of course, I'm talking about.
35:32You referred to him earlier.
35:35What do you think?
35:36Can anybody duplicate what Shohei Otani is doing?
35:39I know we've had people try.
35:41No one's even come anywhere close.
35:45Shohei's one of a kind.
35:46You know, I know when he first came over here, people were saying this is going to open the
35:49door for other people to be two-way players.
35:51You know, the Rays drafted a pitcher outfielder who they thought was going to be that.
35:55No, it's just way too hard.
35:58I'm amazed with you guys.
35:58I actually thought after the 18-inning game that Dave Roberts was just going to use him
36:03as the pitcher and not as the DH.
36:06I mean, to me, he looked spent.
36:07He was on base nine times in a six-and-a-half-hour game, and he's the starting pitcher the next
36:12day.
36:13And I remember talking to Dave Roberts, and Shohei hadn't yet shown up.
36:16I said, is Shohei going to DH as well?
36:20And he said, yeah.
36:21Like, why wouldn't he?
36:22I don't even have to check with him.
36:23I know this is what he does and who he is.
36:25It's amazing.
36:26Now, I did think it finally caught up with him.
36:28I really thought his stuff was down a tick in that game.
36:32It was down a tick in game seven, pitching on short rest.
36:34The fact that he does it is just amazing to me.
36:37Just the physical nature of what he does.
36:39Just pitching alone and the recovery aspect of it is so hard.
36:43And then he's on base all the time.
36:45And we're not going to see anything like this again.
36:48It's funny.
36:49There was one day, I think it was after game five, when it looked to me like he was spent.
36:54And I asked Dave Roberts, how can he possibly keep doing this?
36:58Because Babe Ruth didn't even do it for two full years.
37:00And he basically said, I'm out.
37:02It's too hard physically to do.
37:04And Dave Roberts said he can do this for as long as he wants.
37:08I thought he was going to say like another year or two.
37:10But he said this is who he is.
37:13Shohei is defined by being a two-way player.
37:16So for the people who say, hey, if he just gives up pitching, he'd be a great hitter or vice versa.
37:22Ain't happening.
37:23This is who he wants to be the best player on the planet.
37:25He is.
37:26I think he's the best player who ever played the game.
37:29And I think he wants to keep doing this.
37:31Well, I know he wants to do it until he's 40, 41.
37:33I don't know if he can last that long.
37:35But that's his intention.
37:36And he's one of those guys.
37:37Don't doubt him.
37:38Do not doubt Shohei Ohtani.
37:40I can't believe anybody is still talking about like, when is he giving this up?
37:44I mean, he has – he's about to win a fourth unanimous MVP.
37:49Like, what else would everybody like from the guy?
37:52Tom, two offseasons ago was the Ohtani free agency.
37:58Last was Juan Soto, that chase.
38:02What do you think defines this offseason?
38:04What's Tom Verducci keeping an eye on?
38:06I think it's the number where Kyle Tucker goes.
38:09You know, I think it starts with a four.
38:11I think he's a $40 billion a year player.
38:13And I think the total contract goes over 400.
38:16He's the best hitter on the market.
38:17I know he didn't have a great year between the injury with the Cubs in the second half.
38:21But the body of work is really good.
38:24You know, he's a two-way player.
38:26And it's just hard to find people like that.
38:28I happen to think he's a great fit for Dodgers.
38:30I mean, remember, guys, in the seventh game of the World Series, the outfield the Dodgers ran out there was Quique Hernandez, Tommy Edmund, and Teoscar Hernandez.
38:37I mean, we're talking about the greatest team, the ruining baseball and all this stuff.
38:40That's not an all-world outfield.
38:42I mean, they won the game.
38:43They won the World Series.
38:44Don't get me wrong.
38:44But it's not like they can't use Kyle Tucker.
38:47He's exactly what they need.
38:49In fact, the Dodgers would tell me they have so much coming off the payroll.
38:52They can actually add him at $40 million a year and not be adding to the payroll.
38:55It's amazing the way they just turn like this.
38:57But I'm looking at that, and on the trade market, I think it's fascinating to think of how many top starting pitchers may be out there.
39:05And I say may because, you know, having names out there and having deals completed is entirely different, starting with Tarek Skubal.
39:12I think they have at least to explore the idea of trading him, see what they can get.
39:16I don't think they have intentions of dealing him.
39:18Why would you, right?
39:19You might as well ride it out.
39:20You have a chance to win a pennant in Detroit.
39:22Detroit, you know, I don't think there's a deal that can satisfy Detroit that can also keep them in contention for a pennant.
39:31So you'll hear a lot about that.
39:32I don't think it'll be traded.
39:34But whether it's Alcantara, who a guy I thought the Mets should have traded for at the deadline, I just thought he was just turning a corner.
39:40And that would have been a great fit, not just for this year, but going forward.
39:43Now the Marlins look like they're not that far away.
39:46So I don't know if he gets traded.
39:48Freddie Peralta in Milwaukee and Mackenzie Gore in Washington.
39:52Who knows where they're going with their new leadership there.
39:54So a lot of churn and talk, I think, about the starting pitching trade market.
39:58It's almost even more interesting than the free agent market.
40:01You know, Tom, as just a way to wrap it up, you know, the point you make about the Dodgers is a fascinating one,
40:07which is their outfield was an area of, like, weakness.
40:13They were using starting pitchers to close.
40:16And Tarek Skubal's out there.
40:18Do I think it will happen?
40:20I think they're the one team that could actually trade for Skubal.
40:23Because they have so much starting pitching depth in the minor leagues.
40:26Plus you could throw, like, Glasnow, say, into the trade now and say, like, to Detroit.
40:31You got Glasnow and Sheehan plus this other stuff.
40:34So you got, like, two guys who go right into your rotation.
40:36I'm with you.
40:37I wouldn't trade Tarek Skubal if I were Detroit.
40:39I'd just ride it out.
40:40But, like, the amazing thing about the Dodgers is they could do Tucker.
40:44They could do Diaz.
40:44They could trade for Skubal.
40:46I mean, what are we going to be talking about then if they do that?
40:49Because I do think with everything being said about all these other teams,
40:53they remain the team to watch in the offseason because their ambitions are the largest.
40:59Yeah, that's a great point.
41:00I mean, we got all kind of hot and bothered when they get people like Tanner Scott and Kirby Yates.
41:03You're talking about Kyle Tucker and Tarek Skubal.
41:06But, I mean, hey, listen, you guys lived through this where the Yankees were that team, right, where you could not rule anything out.
41:12Mike Mussina is on the market.
41:13They don't need him.
41:14Oh, wait a second.
41:15The Yankees just signed Mike Mussina.
41:17Trading for David Wells.
41:19I mean, Jose Contreras.
41:20On and on and on.
41:21And it was like, if there's a big fish out there, the Yankees got their line in the water.
41:24And that's who the Dodgers are right now.
41:27It doesn't mean they're going to get everybody, but I'm with you.
41:30I do not rule them out.
41:31They're so smart.
41:32And I just think that it's a place people want to play.
41:37And the Yankees had that going for them as well, right?
41:39If you wanted to win a ring back then, you know, you jumped on the train with the Yankees.
41:43Now it's the Dodgers.
41:45Yep.
41:46Tom, we can't thank you enough.
41:48It was a great World Series.
41:50We're now entering an interesting offseason.
41:54Everyone should follow Tom at Sports Illustrated and MLB Network to continue to get his insights this offseason.
42:01And everyone should root for the most deserving guy on the ballot for the lifetime achievement for the writer's wing of the Hall of Fame.
42:07Tom, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
42:10Hey, my pleasure, guys.
42:11Really enjoyed it.
42:18John and I, of course, thank Tom Verducci for joining us on the show.
42:22John, hit or error?
42:23I'm going to give a hit.
42:25I hear a lot of criticism about the free agent starting pitching market, which I think has some depth.
42:31It's not terrible.
42:32But I'm giving a hit for a great trade market, particularly if Scoobble is out there.
42:37I've heard the answers were ran the gamut from all these different executives from he's going to get traded to no chance he's not going to get traded.
42:47Most of the people thought that or the rival GMs felt that.
42:51They will put his name out there and gauge what the interest is and what they can get for him, but they probably won't trade him.
42:58But that's the big number one guy that creates interest for all of baseball is Tarek Scoobble, the best pitcher, certainly at least in the American League, probably in Major League Baseball.
43:08He should get a Cy Young win, another one today.
43:12Tonight, I think that's great for baseball.
43:16There's a long list of guys who could be traded, very good starting pitchers.
43:20You've got Contra, Cabrera, Lopez, Ryan, Gore, Gray, Peralta.
43:26I'm not saying any of them is particularly likely, some more likely than others, but you've got seven or eight very good starters who could be out there on the market.
43:34And that makes for an interesting offseason.
43:37John, I'll flow from you.
43:38I'll give an error for last offseason to David Stearns and the need for a hit this offseason.
43:44And it probably begins right there.
43:46He needs better starting pitching.
43:47I know lots of things go into the formula that is run prevention.
43:53It begins with a guy having a baseball in his hand and throwing it well.
43:56And the Mets just didn't have enough healthy, talented starting pitching last year.
44:02And so if that means internally reviving Senga and Minaya to better forms of themselves that we've seen in the past, that's got to be part of this since he did fire the pitching coach and he's going a different way there.
44:17Just got to be much better out on the market.
44:19So I'm not sure that it's a hit or an error as much as he had one offseason that was a hit, one offseason so far is an error.
44:26And if the Mets are going to trend in the direction they want to, which is to be serial winners under this administration, which I think we thought they were headed towards 12 months ago, with Cohn at the top, Stearns as the head of baseball operations and Carlos Mendoza as the manager.
44:41Then the Mets badly need David Stearns to be the MVP of this offseason.
44:50John, the MVP of our show is always Tommy Hogan, our great producer.
44:58You and I are far flung these last few weeks, including right now in Vegas.
45:02And Tommy always jumps in at a moment's notice to make everything possible.
45:05Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, please rate and review us.
45:09Go to the YouTube, the New York Post YouTube page to give us a view.
45:12Please subscribe to that.
45:14It always helps the show if you like the show.
45:17And obviously, since we're doing this from Vegas, the hot stove is off and going.
45:21Please stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
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