- il y a 1 semaine
Jen, founder of Vertical Drama Love, discusses how she transformed from a passionate fan into one of the most active advocates for the global vertical drama industry. Through reviews, fan awards, consulting, events, and industry research, she has helped connect fans, creators, and production teams across the world while pushing for greater legitimacy and recognition for the format. In this conversation, she explores the explosive growth of microdramas, the importance of fan communities, the rise of original storytelling beyond recycled IP, and growing concerns around shock-value content, misogyny, and excessive violence in female-led stories. Jen also shares insights into audience behaviour, the future of UK vertical productions, the rejection of AI-generated actors by fans, and why emotional storytelling, human connection, and stronger female representation will shape the next era of vertical drama. INTERVIEW BY WENWEN HAN
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Art et designTranscription
00:00Could you briefly introduce yourself and your role in short drama industry?
00:04Hi, my name is Jen. I'm the founder of Vertical Drama Love, which is a combination of fan-created
00:12content, reviews, articles about the industry, advocating for better things in the industry.
00:18I also do media speaking, consulting, basically here to help the industry grow and generate more
00:24work for everyone. Could you tell us more about how you get into this industry? So I came
00:29as a fan, so I discovered Vertical Dramas in April 24, was watching them, but couldn't find any
00:36information about how they were made, because that's always my instinct to research. I understood
00:40the format a little bit, because I come from Chinese and Korean dramas, so I understood the
00:44tropes and the storylines, but I was like, how are these being made in America? It's clearly a fast
00:48turnaround. At the time, there was very little press, there was the social media accounts, the apps
00:54were just giving me free episodes, that was it. The fan accounts were pretty much, here's some
00:59really nice photos of the actors. So I thought, this is crazy, there's obviously a lot of people
01:04watching these around the world, and there's not much content for them, so I started writing reviews.
01:10So I did this in December, I just set up an account, but I'm just going to write some reviews,
01:14and I also
01:15just asked some questions about how are these made, I'm recognising this dress in several series,
01:20and what happened was, I think because people hadn't been interested in their job before, and
01:25possibly been quite dismissive, suddenly I had people on sets, particularly in America, but all
01:29around the world, Australia, UK, messaging me, going, I'm in a vertical drama, I'm working on right now,
01:34ask me any questions, I'll tell you whatever you need to know. So I suddenly ended up connected to
01:38people in the industry, sharing their information and their experience, and it happened the same with
01:43fans as well, because obviously a lot of people are watching these, but a lot of them don't know other
01:47people in their day-to-day life at the moment. So again, they were like, oh wow, someone's talking
01:52about that, I want to come and join and find other people. So I've ended up becoming this conduit,
01:57I think, for both the industry and the fans, and I think I found what's interesting is with the
02:01industry, obviously if they're working in LA, they'll know what's going on in LA, but they won't
02:05necessarily know what's happening in Vancouver, or New York, or UK, or Ukraine, and so I've ended up
02:10being able to link a lot of people, because I'm watching and talking to people all over the world,
02:15and it's just grown from that. So a lot of it was about trying to find ways to legitimise the
02:21industry, and give it the attention that it deserved. So through my day job business, you
02:27know, it was online business support, and I had PR connections, so I was like, this should be a press
02:31story, because in the UK, reports about TV and film were very much studios are closing, there's not much
02:37work, and I was like, well, vertical dramas are generating work, this is the thing everyone's
02:40telling me. So I was able to pitch and get stories in sort of mainstream press here about vertical
02:45dramas, and start to get that attention on it. I also thought we should celebrate this, so I set
02:50up and ran some fan awards, so I got fans to nominate their favourite actors and dramas from
02:552024, and then they voted on it, and that went global, so we ended up with 16,000 votes around
03:00the world. So that happened in March, and it's very much looking at, like, how do we celebrate this
03:05community? So I then did an online event called Vertfest, which was a two-day celebration of
03:11vertical dramas at the end of August with my co-organiser, Anna, and that was very much like a
03:17comic-con, but online, because people are global, so I wanted it to be accessible to everyone global,
03:21where there would be panels of actors and actresses either grouped by kind of a genre, so there's a
03:27werewolf one, or by region, so for instance, we had a group from Australia, and that fans could watch
03:32that in an interactive online environment, and they could also chat with each other, and then they could
03:36also do meet and greets, so we did kind of online meet and greets, and they could pay extra, and,
03:41you
03:41know, spend some time talking to their favourite stars, and that was really the key to give back, and I
03:45think the lovely thing was there was a lot of buy-in from all the actors and actresses, because they
03:49do
03:50realise that this is very much the money, and their jobs come from the fact that fans watch these, so
03:55I
03:55think that's one of the huge appeals of vertical dramas, that there is this synergy between the
03:59creatives and the fans, and that everyone sort of comes together and wants to elevate the industry.
04:04How did you first have the idea of Vertical Drama Awards? It's you came up with the idea, or someone
04:09just bring the idea to you? No, it's always me, it's my brain, everything I've done is my brain, so
04:14yeah,
04:15I just go, we should do awards, and then I just do it, and then it happens, and it always
04:20ends up a bit
04:20bigger than I anticipated, but it was just really important to me. I think the key thing was, I think,
04:25to bring
04:25a level of legitimacy to it, I think that was the key, because it was very much written off of,
04:30oh,
04:30they're just these cheesy little things, they're not art, and I'm like, well, I speak to fans around
04:34the world, these are very important in people's lives, I have a lot of people saying, I've watched
04:39a vertical, and this is the first time I've smiled, or I've laughed after, like, a significant life
04:44event, like a loss, or grief, or bad illness, and I was like, these are actually really important, and I
04:50do believe that some of them are some of the best creativity out there, you know, I'm a big
04:54romantic drama fan, some of the best ones I've seen, that I'd rank alongside TV and Hollywood,
04:59are vertical dramas, so I think it was trying to bring that legitimacy of, like, can we take this
05:04seriously, so I think that started with the reviews, of just reviewing it as you would a normal movie,
05:09but then it came with, well, there should be awards, and then it's also trying to get something for the
05:13fans, and I'm also looking now, setting up in the UK, we'll be doing a festival specifically for UK
05:20verticals, and again, moving towards more that film festival model, just to try and really show
05:26that this format is here to stay, and then there is a huge amount of creativity and art that should
05:30be celebrated rather than dismissed. So the festival is online or on site? No, this is going to be a
05:37film
05:37festival, so it will be a, basically, just for UK ones, and I'm going to be doing that hopefully in
05:43February. That's more for celebrating what's in the UK, so like, the best director in the UK, and also
05:48it will allow people to submit, like a standard film festival, so not so much a fan one, this will
05:53be a standard film festival. We will bring in some big, well-known, if not household names, at least
05:59known in the UK names, to be judges, and it's just to try and bring, again, that legitimacy and get
06:04the
06:05press in the UK to just kind of realise this is actually a really exciting format, and hopefully
06:10generate a lot more opportunities for young filmmakers in the UK. What's your goal for this
06:15London-based festival? Basically to bring in investment and support for young filmmakers
06:20who want to go into verticals. So my goal around all of it is very much to give the fans
06:24a voice
06:25and to just generate as much work as I can for everyone, so I think it's not just film and
06:31TV,
06:31I think every business industry in the world is often struggling, so it's really rare to find an
06:36area that's in growth, so let's try and bring as many people as we can with us and generate work
06:41for
06:41them. Yeah, because you see the potential of vertical dramas in the beginning, right? When
06:46nobody's talking about this, you see the potential, you see this brings joyness to fans,
06:53this brings job to the industry, right? Yeah, 100%. I always saw from the beginning, I think it was
06:58around August 2024, which was when Real Short brought out Breaking the Ice, and that started
07:04going viral, and I think then I was suddenly like, okay, there's a lot of people watching this,
07:09this isn't going anywhere as a format, and I think from then I was like, there's a lot of potential
07:13here. From then I've always believed in it. The Fan Award last year, and are there any interesting
07:19memorable moments for the words that you can share? Yes, what's really interesting is voting
07:25patterns around the world. So you kind of realise there's like regional favourites, they have certain
07:31stars, so for instance, Nicole Maddox, who's a very popular actress, is popular in the Philippines
07:36and Indonesia. So you can kind of see where people's fan bases are, kind of actors who often
07:42have, or actors and actresses who often have dark hair, are very popular in kind of Eastern Europe
07:48and Southeast Asia. So people like Mariah Moss and Teague Zidhana, they have great votes there. So it was
07:52really interesting seeing that. Yeah, and I think that the challenge with that was, was just me doing
07:58it on my own, it was very much from my kitchen table. So it broke my laptop, because I just
08:04remember
08:04the spreadsheet. So I had a spreadsheet that was linked to the great voting platform that I'd
08:09found. And there were so many votes coming in, my laptop couldn't cope, essentially, so I had to buy
08:15a new laptop, because it broke with the size of the spreadsheets. But yeah, it was, I think it was
08:20just astonishing how excited people got about it. And I was being told that people on set are like,
08:25oh my goodness, they're doing awards, no one's done awards, people are doing awards. And I think it
08:28was a genuine excitement, I think, of like, someone's doing this, this is really cool. So I mean,
08:33I look back, and it was amateur, I would say, because it was just me with an idea. But I
08:39think
08:39it was a very big kickstart in what's happening now and inspired other people. So obviously,
08:44there's been other vertical events. And now obviously, there's going to be more and more
08:47awards. So I kind of feel it was that first push into this snowball now of other awards.
08:53And what's really important to me is that this one is entirely driven by fans. So there's going to
08:58be a lot of awards, obviously, the industry will decide and that comes with a certain perspective
09:03that the industry has. This one is all about the fans. It's all the fans input. I don't decide
09:08who the nominations are, they decide because they tell me. And I think that's what's really
09:13crucial of keeping fans front and centre, because obviously, they're funding the entire industry.
09:18What kind of feedback have you received from the audience about the accountants or the actors
09:23involved?
09:24They want to give awards to everyone. I think the challenge this year is to last year,
09:28it was for everything brought out in 2024. The challenge this year is obviously the sheer volume
09:33of content that has created is exponential. So I think the hard thing is narrowing it down. So one of
09:39the big things we're doing is last year, I just had an award for vertical of the year, which were
09:4410
09:44verticals, and then people voted. That feels too narrow now. So there's going to be 10 separate
09:50categories for different types of verticals, for instance, a fantasy vertical. And then, which means
09:56that overall, there'll be 100 that will go into that. And then the top ones of that will then go
10:00into vertical of the year. So that was a big change just because of the sheer amount. I'm also bringing
10:06in things as well, like we wanted something to recognise some of the older actors and actresses.
10:11And obviously, by older, I'm saying like over 40. So really not that much older, but just to try and
10:15recognise other people in the industry as well. So having like a matriarch of the year and a patriarch of
10:21the
10:21year, because obviously, some of those characters, you know, they might be evil, they might be
10:25wonderful in vertical dramas. But there's amazing performances. And it's trying to just increase
10:30where we're spreading the light, recognising and rewarding people that matter to fans.
10:35Giving them more exposure.
10:38Exactly. 100%.
10:39Right now, as an expert in short drama industry, what change or trends have you noticed in the
10:45content over the past few years?
10:47I think the content has diverged this year. There's obviously certain apps have doubled down
10:54on the kind of clickbait, shock, rage content. So there's definitely been an increase in, you know,
11:02violence against women, just put stuff that's clearly just put into shock and grab the attention
11:06for the social media algorithm and the marketing. It is also landing as well. I personally don't like
11:11it at all. I find it quite distressing and unpleasant, but it is landing. So you have to
11:17understand this is hitting something for some people. So trying to understand why. But I also think there is a
11:24cry to not
11:25just rely on reskinning Chinese IP. So I think there's a real push for original content as well. I think
11:31the
11:31Chinese IP always has a place because I think there's brilliant stories that come over. But people want
11:35original content as well. And one of the things I've really noticed is, is we have waves of fans now.
11:42So you have
11:42fans like myself, who've been watching for nearly two years, we've seen a lot of the stories that are redone
11:48and
11:48redone. So for us, it's like, I don't need yet another version of, you know, the husband does this and
11:53the wife does
11:53this. So we're looking for newer and fresher content. Then you've got people who've come in maybe a year ago,
11:59and
11:59they haven't watched quite as much of that. So they're kind of okay. And then you've got people who are
12:03only just
12:03coming in the last six months. So all those storylines are fresh to them. So I might look at
12:08something and go, I've seen this lots of times, but that viewer hasn't. So I think that's the
12:12challenge. Now you've got viewers at very different stages who are ready for different content. I think
12:16what's clear is that production is going up. So, you know, lighting's improving, camera shots are
12:23improving, which makes sense with the fact that there's a lot more legacy Hollywood people coming in,
12:28more people taking time. There have obviously been some great experiments with new genres. I think it's still a
12:33bit of a struggle to get the audience there, because I think the key audience is here for
12:37romance. But, you know, Game of Choice is brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. It's, you know, it's kind
12:43of Squid Games versus Saw sort of vertical. So I think it proves you can do action and shock and
12:48put in
12:49those beats. So yeah, it's just really exciting, I think, and seeing where it goes. And I think there's
12:55just going to be this real spread of type of content. And rather than just having one or two apps
13:00dominating, I think people are going to just break out across different apps as they get their
13:05sort of brand identity. And then people will find the apps that suit them. So for instance,
13:10my audience tends to be similar to me and appreciate similar stuff. So my audience will
13:15always go for Candy Jar. Candy Jar tends to be the app that they like best for the most content.
13:19That makes sense. And I think it's going to be like that there will be, you know, audiences for
13:24different apps.
13:25The beginning part, I didn't get it. So you mean more violence?
13:28Yes, there's definitely been a very big up crease in violence against women, violence
13:33against children, shocking content. There's a lot now of seeing pregnant women being hit
13:39and assaulted at forced abortion. Some hideous stuff around characters who are disabled, them
13:46being maltreated. Things that for me, my thought is, as well as I don't want to see it and it's
13:52unpleasant, I think it delegitimises the industry. It makes it easier for everyone who wants to say
13:56this is rubbish. However, I am aware that I am coming with a Western European sensibility and
14:01these things are getting watched. So you have to at least try and sit back and understand why are
14:06these things getting watched? You know, we are viewers all around the world with different
14:10cultures, slightly different values. So yeah, it's kind of, I understand why they're made. I understand
14:16that they work for the social media algorithm. The thing that concerns me is that I know that a lot
14:21of creatives don't want to make them, you know, so you have got good directors and good actors and
14:25actresses turning down work. And I know of a few who've left the industry because they don't want
14:29to be associated with that sort of work. So I think this is the challenge. It risks all the people
14:35who
14:35are trying to make better stuff and tell beautiful stories and put more art and soul into it. I think
14:40that's the danger. But those people are there and I think those people, they will all find their
14:44home. Just as I said, it's just going to spread. There will be people who watch that, but there will
14:49be
14:49people like me and that I will try and guide them to who will go, here is the beautiful stuff.
14:53Here
14:54is stuff that has more diversity. Here is stuff where there's real quality. I think that's the
14:58same for every media form. If you look at any form of TV or books or, you know, whatever, there
15:02is
15:02that really widespread, isn't there? A sort of quality and what people enjoy. So yeah, it's just going to
15:07keep widening, I think. A short drama is rely on ad buying. So when there's bait, the creative ad
15:15into the media, actually, it's called short value. The data will not know the audience,
15:20like just know that the audience keep watching. Maybe because the audience is so angry, they want
15:26to see the end of it. So because I talked to different creators, like all of them tell me
15:31they don't like those kinds of content. And I agree on that. So yeah, I hope we see some changes
15:37in this
15:38area. It's also related to my question. The way female leads are portrayed in short drama has any
15:46issues or areas for improvement. I think you've already mentioned. Is there anything you want to
15:50share? I've just done a fan survey. So I have data from over 1,600 fans who filled it in.
15:56They are very,
15:57very fed up of the drugging. Then it brings into questions, consent around sex. So that's actually
16:02the thing that fans told me they were most upset about. People also fed up with the slaps and the
16:07violence. I think it's difficult. I think there is a level of some of it has to be there for
16:11the
16:11drama. I think a lot of it gets excessive. I can't watch anything where there's anything about a
16:16pregnancy or like that, that's being badly done. That's an instant. I'm out. I immediately exit.
16:22I think it's gone both ways. I think some of them show more. There's a lot more of this humiliation
16:28and brutality. But on the flip side, we've also had dramas come out recently, which have much
16:33stronger female leads. So I think it's I'm the Mafia girl boss. There's one that Goodshot put out.
16:38And the twist is that the female lead is the Mafia boss and the love interest, he's the delivery guy
16:43and she's protecting him. She's got all the things. People love that one. That was fantastic.
16:49There's another one, I think it's called Cheer Clean's Flay or something, where the love interest
16:54is really secondary. It's very much about the relationship between a mother and a daughter.
16:57And the mother kind of ends up as younger and going into a cheer squad to look after her daughter.
17:02But the key thing about that is them building their relationship. And they're both becoming
17:06stronger, more understanding people. So it's kind of one one area is getting a lot worse.
17:12But then there's also more stories coming through, which how much more female centric and have
17:17empowered leads. So I think it's both sort of diverging in both directions.
17:22Or independent woman. So if you yourself kind of create a short drama, what kind of female
17:29character will you create? I think for me, the key is that if a male character has toxic traits,
17:37that they're not all explained away and the woman stays with him anyway at the end.
17:41I think that for me is one of the biggest issues that seems to be improving a bit now.
17:45I do seem to be a run of what I call the angry husband ones of his dreadful, but they
17:50do seem
17:51to have changed the ending that she leaves and goes off and is with someone else better.
17:55So I think that for me is the most important thing with a female character, that the end
18:00decision is that we are not condoning either a violent or toxic relationship, because there's
18:06a lot of teenage girls watching this. There's been a really big one on Real Short, which is
18:10one of their biggest ones. But in the drama, she does end up with a better one. But there's
18:13so much bullying. And then the lead actress was like, I had fans saying they thought she should
18:19have ended up with the other guy. And the other guy was nonstop horrific to her throughout
18:22it. Now, he is an attractive actor. But this is the concern. You are giving a message out
18:28to teenage girls. You're giving a message out to women about what's right in a relationship.
18:33I don't feel that vertical dramas have to have like any sort of moral obligation to improve
18:39the world. But my youngest daughter said this to me much earlier in the year, and she's
18:4413, of like vertical dramas don't have to make the world better, but they shouldn't make
18:48it worse. And I think that's the key thing. I'm not expecting them. And I don't think anyone wants
18:52them to be this big moral crusade. I think that's why people are here and not in Hollywood.
18:56But they shouldn't be making it worse. And I think that's the concern that some of it is actually
19:01pushing a bit of a message, which is pushing back progress that has been made around how women
19:06are treated on screen.
19:07Yeah, I agree. Like they should be experiencing some kind of a good message. Women should be
19:13independent or should be treated.
19:15I think that's it. Or just feel good as well. Because I think this is the key. I want to
19:18feel
19:19good at the end of it, rather than drained by just seeing nonstop drama for 90 minutes.
19:25Exactly. Because we say short drama is like feel good drama or satisfying drama. As a woman,
19:32do you feel you have certain advantages in this short drama industry? If yes, what are they?
19:37The biggest advantage is I actually watch them. Because I now in sort of consulting,
19:42I talk to a lot of men who are interested in coming into the space, but they don't watch it.
19:46And they don't understand. So I think that is actually the biggest thing. Because the audience,
19:51at least in the West, is still majority female. So I understand what the audience are looking for
19:57and why they're here and what their general life experiences is like, you know, as a woman in
20:02her 40s and with kids, you know, I know it varies from nation to nation. But I think that is
20:06my biggest
20:06advantage. I actually understand the audience. And I watch the darn things because I was told that
20:11even a lot of the apps quite high up, they're probably not watching it because all they're looking
20:15at is the data. So they're watching it in a form of data spikes, but they're not actually sat and
20:20watching the story all the way through. So I think that is my biggest advantage. I am the viewer,
20:25I am the demographic. What are those audience, vertical audience want? Can you give me some
20:31examples? They want apps that don't glitch, a lot of feedback about apps, and also apps that get back
20:38in touch with you when you get in touch with their contact desk. It's really important to them on the
20:42apps as well. They want search. I think this has become more important on the apps because
20:47obviously the amount of content has grown so much, it's a lot harder to find things. So it's crucial
20:52that they search. They'd love to be able to search by actors and actresses because that is
20:57how most people choose what to watch. They will go for actors and actresses that they recognize.
21:02It's really important to people that they're all the coin opportunities as well. So that's
21:06absolutely vital to people. They are trying to save money where they can. Content-wise, I think
21:13fresh stories, I think rather than just the endless reskinning. They don't want AI. People are
21:18incredibly vocal that they don't want AI. I have noticed that multiple apps are putting AI content
21:25out now. There is absolutely no interest at fans and I think the misunderstanding the apps have is
21:31fans love the actors and actresses and the humans and their interaction on social media. That's what
21:36they're connected with that. They worry about their jobs. So I asked this question in my survey,
21:41like about AI. They worried about the jobs. Also, all of us have had their jobs threatened by AI.
21:47So I had let several people say, I've just been replaced by AI in my work, so I don't want
21:51to see
21:52other industries that. So there's a very, very strong vocal feeling if they don't want AI.
21:56The only bits where it was brought in were, I could see there's a value around maybe improving workflows
22:02or creating fantasy and that it would allow you to do dragons and scenery like that, but they want human
22:07actors. So I think that is absolutely crucial going forward. It also means it's really important
22:12in the app because quite a lot of the apps will slightly AI the posters, which means that you
22:17don't recognize the actors and actresses. So I'm now thinking they're an AI show and avoiding them.
22:22And then I'm being told by, you know, director and producer, oh no, that's got like real people in.
22:26And I'm like, well, I wouldn't have clicked on it because I'm trying not to click on anything
22:29that looks AI generated so that apps get the message of I'm not interested.
22:35Content-wise, I think just, yeah, news stories. I think just anything original. I think people
22:40are very varied. There's all sorts of replies, all sorts of different genres, but essentially,
22:44yeah, news stories. I think there's more interest in either having, doesn't always have to be romance,
22:51but having, you know, female story of like girl friends, you know, groups of friends or groups of
22:57male friends and sort of doing more of that sort of friendship group story. I think there's
23:03interest in that. And yeah, the biggest one is just reducing the violence. The violence is far
23:06too much. They want the violence down. I was surprised because right now,
23:10AI motion comics, it's very popular. It's a heat in China. So money are pulling into that.
23:18And you actually see AI motion comics in the overseas apps already.
23:23So I think that was what people were saying. I think people were like,
23:25if I want to watch that, I'll go to anime or comics. So I think it's keeping it separate.
23:29But if I'm here for vertical, I think the key thing that just keeps coming out to me in this
23:33survey
23:33is that people identify with the actors and actresses and that they're humans and that
23:38they're available on social media and that they see their lives and then they, but yeah,
23:41that's what people want, I think. So there is much more loyalty to an actor or actress that people
23:49love than there is to any sort of app. So a lot of people have said, if I have a
23:52favourite actor,
23:53I will watch as much as I work as I can, whatever app it's on. So I think that because
23:58there's so
23:58many apps now, that's kind of where the power shift has changed. There's not that sort of brand
24:02loyalty really to an app. It's to the actors and actresses. So I will follow that. I mean,
24:06Noah Fernley got mentioned repeatedly. It's like, I'm watching wherever. So I think that's the key
24:12thing. That's where people are, how people are choosing what to watch.
24:15If a film actor with a TV background, they want to get into a vertical series,
24:20what's your suggestion to them? You're going to need to take a massive pay cut.
24:24Yeah. I think the key thing is if people come in with those sort of
24:28wage expectations, it destroys the vertical drama budget. I also think pace is the other big thing
24:34that they all say. So you've got to be able to adapt to the pace. I've talked to an actress
24:39who
24:40works a lot in China and she said she's seen very experienced actors basically crumble because
24:47of the speed and that they're not being able to prepare, been able to do lots of rehearsals of
24:52each scene. What I'm told is actually the people who are coming over who are often adapting best
24:58at anyone who's done soaps, telenovelas, Bollywood, any of that sort of either live or again,
25:05pretty fast filming. So soaps are very fast. All those actors seem to be able to adapt pretty fast.
25:12Some have even said vertical dramas are slower. So I think that move is easier. But yeah, the big
25:17names are all coming. They're all looking at it because everyone wants to be part of the one area
25:22that's growing. So I think we will see it. It's just how it will work with the fact that the
25:28format
25:29doesn't work if you change the budget dramatically. Part of it is because it's so quick and it's,
25:33it is a lower investment and it's out quickly. So that's going to be the challenge how we bridge
25:37that. But I'm sure people will find ways and I know people are working on it right now.
25:41If like a film writer or director from film or TV sales background want to write or direct short
25:47dramas, what's your suggestion on that?
25:49The writing, well, I would say go to my YouTube channel because I have videos, interviews of various
25:54writers. Writing, the key one is emotion. So you're writing to emotion. So you don't do that long
26:01set up. You have to start immediately and hook the viewer in. So it's pace, pace, pace, pace, pace.
26:06And I think that's where it can be a struggle, realising you have to put those cliffhanger in
26:12that get the audience obviously past the paywall or wanting to see more. So that would be my biggest
26:18one for writers. You're writing to emotion. You're taking out all that exposition. You're not,
26:23you haven't got a long time to slowly build a character. You're revealing who they are instantly.
26:27For directors, I think it's less of a transition. I think the main adaptation I've been told by them
26:35is just understanding the frame and just getting more creative about how you can use the frame and
26:41stacking and shots. So I think that's an easier transition. It's more, again, the pace. I think
26:46the pace is probably the thing of like, you haven't got endless times to redo a shot and do it.
26:50You've
26:50just got to make your decisions fast. I think that's the key thing. You do your prep,
26:54make your decisions fast on set, move on. But I know a lot of people who are happy to embrace
26:58that absolutely adore it. I've spoken to actors and actresses who say, you know, my memory is amazing
27:03because they really train that part of their brain. They're basically, they just learn the script for
27:08the next day, the night before. And they've just got ability now to just absorb it, take it in days
27:12over that script goes, they take in the next day. So yeah, the same with the directors. I think people
27:18who've embraced it have really honed their skills and are doing brilliantly.
27:22You mentioned about some guys in Consulted, they never watch short dramas.
27:27I think this is the men who are coming in, I think, who obviously, oh, I've done stuff on social
27:33media
27:33and I'll do apps. But yes, they've not watched. I think this is the key thing. Watch some. Let's try
27:39and watch a few at least and understand what it is. I think there's a certain, it's only a small
27:45percentage, but there is a certain of, oh, I understand this. I know what it is. I've done
27:49loads of film and TV. And it's like, no, it is different. You have to. So this is more people
27:54that I would say looking at production or level who are possibly not taking the time to actually
28:00look at the content and understand why it works. Do you think short dramas have created more
28:05opportunities to women, female creators? Yes, 100%. Obviously, there's a lot of job for women on sets.
28:11It's hard to get a percentage, but my impression is that there are more female directors, for instance,
28:17in this industry than in other film industries. Also, the same as writing. My understanding is
28:23the percentage is higher. Even just things like that, that have often become a female specialist
28:26job, you know, intimacy coordinators. I think that's one of the best things about vertical dramas,
28:29that intimacy coordinator is a key part of any good set. They, not always, but they do tend to be
28:35female as well. So just that there's a whole new job there that has arisen. I mean, obviously for me,
28:39I mean, this is now my full-time job. So it's generated that for me. And one of my hopes
28:44for
28:44the coming year is to be in a position where I can then provide work to other female fans. That's
28:50the
28:50goal. So I think there's only going to be more and more people who are able to basically get a
28:58living
28:58from this and make work. You've built this amazing, brilliant thing, sharing your knowledge with the
29:03world, which is absolutely invaluable to so many people in the industry. And I think you're particularly
29:07well-placed to do it as a woman. Short dramas create a lot of job opportunities in China.
29:12It's like a whole industry. What's the future of short drama, do you think?
29:17More apps with different ownerships. So there will be American-owned apps, there will be UK-owned apps,
29:24and so on, with a widened variety of content. And I think they will help us reach newer viewers. So
29:32I
29:32think the viewership is only going to keep growing. I can't see at the moment how it will stop. It's
29:36really hard to say, because everything moves so fast. I think that's the key thing. You almost can't
29:42predict, because things, you know, in two weeks, three weeks ago, a storyline or a kind of issue that
29:48was a big thing is suddenly very old news. And, you know, there's a new storyline that everyone's
29:51doing. So I think, you know, a few weeks ago, we had the storyline that came over from, I think,
29:56China is obviously, you know, about a bodyguard who basically goes crazy and goes completely
30:00demented at the end. And everyone had a version of that, and then there'll be a load of those,
30:04and then we'll move on. So who knows? I think you've probably got a better idea than a lot of
30:08us,
30:08because you have an eye on what's working in China and what storylines will then come over.
30:13But mainly, I think the future is bright. I think that's the best thing I can say.
30:17So what's the short-term vertical environment it's like in UK?
30:22So we have about, I think there's about 10 production companies now. So they've been
30:28making verticals here since when I started watching them. So since about early 2024.
30:33What's really changed, I think, was when I first got the press this year, though, we have now had,
30:38you know, probably about eight or nine mainstream press articles this year. And what that's brought is
30:44it has brought the household name, things like, you know, BBC Channel 4 production companies in
30:50the UK, you know, who weren't in vertical dramas are all now looking at it and trying to figure out
30:55how it fits in for them and sort of as part of what they do. I think the feeling in
30:59the UK is that it
31:01will need to have a bit more of a UK voice. I suspect it will lean more into humour, because
31:06I think
31:07that's what the UK viewer wants. The UK viewer is possibly the wider one, a little more savvy and a
31:13little more cynical. So I think it needs to lean into the humour side of verticals for them.
31:18There are viewers here, there is a sort of key small viewership. The other big thing that's
31:23changed is the actors and actresses here, because I think last year it was very much people were very
31:29wary of, and I think quite reluctant to do. What's happened this year is everyone around the world has
31:36realised the UK does have the best acting. It's not just me saying it, I've been told by multiple
31:41American directors and producers. The acting talent in the UK is phenomenal. I think as production
31:47companies or standards and things have improved, UK actors and actresses are happier to get involved
31:52now and are building a better career. And, you know, as long as the scripts are better, you know,
31:57they don't want to be doing the violent ones. I think that's a really strong feeling here.
32:01Another really strong feeling is about pay parity as well. You know, normally in the UK, there is pay
32:06parity between the male and female leads. That does not happen all the time in America. So there's a
32:11strong feeling about that. But it is being seen more as something that they are willing to talk
32:17about and take part in. And I mean, one company's just finished filming, I think, what's the biggest
32:23vertical in the UK, which is a medieval setting. But I mean, they were filming in castles, you know,
32:29they've got horse riding, it's a real step up in sort of vertical production and has, you know,
32:35some of our bigger names in it. So yeah, I think it's going to explode here in the UK next
32:40year,
32:40to be honest, as all these vertical production companies already established, they're getting
32:44more popular because everyone realises it's cheap to film in the UK. And we have great talent. But
32:49also all the more legacy things like, you know, BBC and Channel 4 and so on, all come into the
32:54space
32:54as well and sort of experiment and find their way of being part of it.
32:57You mean BBC involved in short dramas?
33:00At the moment, I think they're just looking at it. But the key thing is they're looking.
33:03I think this is the important thing. It's no longer being dismissed. So I'm speaking at an event called
33:09Content London, which is like one of the biggest UK media events. So when I first spoke to them in
33:15March, they've always prided themselves on looking outward, like what the important parts of the
33:21content economy. So for instance, they were talking about YouTube long before most people were. When I
33:26spoke to them in March, they were like, well, we want to do maybe one session on short dramas or
33:30vertical
33:30dramas. That has now expanded into an entire afternoon. And it's in the main venue. It's in
33:37the biggest hall every single session, because that's the change that's happened between March
33:40and then September when they put the schedule out of they've realised that's how much the interest
33:45has grown. So I think that's probably the key thing of just showing how much interest there is in the
33:52UK
33:52and realisation that this is something to get involved with.
33:55Yeah, and just half a year, right? And they realise how pretentious for vertical dramas.
34:00Yeah, yeah, it's changed. They're getting there. We're always a little slow in the UK. I think it's
34:06fair to say, obviously, America was there first. But it's getting there. And I know there's a huge
34:10amount going on behind the scenes. So I think I think next year in the UK is exciting. I think
34:14there's
34:14going to be all sorts of very interesting and talented and wonderful people working in vertical
34:18drama. Before we wrap up, do you have any other one, other things you want to share about your
34:23event, about your festival or awards? Three things. So I know it's very hard to get hold of
34:31data of just what actually fans think. So I did a survey out. It's a really comprehensive survey of
34:38basically who fans are, how they watch, how they use apps, how they choose what shows to watch,
34:42what they like, don't like, general experiences. I've got over 1600 people have replied to that.
34:48So I'm currently putting that in a big report. I am going to make that available for free,
34:52because it's really important to me that people can access it and use it. So I imagine when this
34:57is out, that will be available. So do go and have a look on my website if you want to
35:00access that.
35:02It's not the world's biggest segment, but it's a star. And in my view, it's better than nothing,
35:06which is where a lot of us are working from. I run the Vertical Drama Love Fan Awards,
35:11which will be running from January to March 2026. We're awarding things in Verticals in 2025.
35:17Nominations will open January 1st. So if you're a fan and you have your favourites,
35:21go make your nominations. And then yes, watch this space. But I will be running a UK Vertical
35:27Film Festival, which is designed to give awards and highlight the best of basically the Verticals
35:33being made in the UK and also new filmmakers who are experimenting with the format. So watch the
35:38space for this. Come and say hi. I'm always happy to help whoever I can on my website,
35:43on my YouTube or my socials.
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