- il y a 2 jours
In this deep-dive conversation, Jenny Rosen, senior development executive at DramaBox, breaks down the real mechanics behind today’s booming vertical drama industry.
From her early success on Wattpad to landing deals with Hachette Audio and Crazy Maple Studios, Jenny reveals how data-driven storytelling, audience psychology, and emotional escapism shape high-performing short dramas. interview by Wenwen Han.
From her early success on Wattpad to landing deals with Hachette Audio and Crazy Maple Studios, Jenny reveals how data-driven storytelling, audience psychology, and emotional escapism shape high-performing short dramas. interview by Wenwen Han.
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00:00Hi, my name is Jenny Rosen, I'm your development executive at Drama Box and I also am a vertical drama
00:06screenwriter and traditional writer.
00:08So yes, that's my role in the industry and I've been working in verticals for nearly two years.
00:14How did you first get involved in short dramas?
00:17Yes, so essentially I started out in the web novel world on Wattpad and I had some successful books on
00:25Wattpad for the young adult audience.
00:26I loved young adult contemporary, I loved young adult romance, and the books went viral fairly early on.
00:34And so that led to me getting a publishing deal through Hachette Audio and then a mobile game adaptation through
00:41Crazy Maple Studios.
00:43And that was in 2017 when they were fairly new.
00:46So it's very exciting to see them adapt one of my successful web novel series into a mobile game.
00:52And then fast forward many years later, I was on set working in camera department on a shoot for Real
01:00Short.
01:00And it turned out that one of the team members who had adapted my book many years before was working
01:06and was there representing client.
01:08I started out on Wattpad because I actually wanted to test a manuscript that I had written to see if
01:14the young adult market was actually going to respond.
01:16I said, I don't have any data, so it makes no sense to try to approach publishers unless I see
01:23if it really works for the audience.
01:24And then maybe I can write a draft based on their feedback that will give me a better sense of
01:29what they want as an audience.
01:30So I've always been very data interested and data driven.
01:34Get feedback and comments from the fans.
01:37It used to be a very big culture on the Wattpad website where people could comment in real time.
01:43You'd upload a chapter and you'd see feedback right away and you would know, oh, did this not work?
01:48Did they really like this?
01:50Was the cliffhanger strong enough?
01:51So you were getting these conversations from readers and their responses really told you like, okay, this chapter worked really
01:59well.
02:00Maybe this was too long.
02:01You just got a better sense of pacing for the plot.
02:03How will you define short dramas and what do you think it's their essence?
02:08For me, I think short dramas are an invitation to escape.
02:12I think they're emotional escapism and they're also the science of dopamines.
02:18It is very clear that there's a opportunity for our audience members to turn off their brain a little bit,
02:27experience something emotional,
02:28but then also feel that pull and that sort of fun addiction to continuing to have to find out what
02:34happens to these characters.
02:36Like we're inviting them on like an emotional journey.
02:39So we promise that they're going to feel good at the end of this drama.
02:42What we promised them at the start, we are going to deliver at the end.
02:45We always deliver on the premise of the promise.
02:47We're not asking them to, you know, work out grand mysteries or really get very deep into like characterization and
02:55trauma.
02:56We're not doing that.
02:56This is a place where you get to be emotionally satisfied.
03:00And there's a very clear point of connection.
03:02So I think in verticals, it's fun because we have the opportunity to create characters that people can root for,
03:09people feel bad for,
03:11people can see themselves in some regard or something that they're missing in their own lives.
03:17And it's the fantasy.
03:18So I think it's what the essence of vertical dramas means, that emotional escapism and wish fulfillment.
03:25How do you design a story or character that the audience roots for?
03:31Usually right at the top, it's someone who we know is fully good.
03:36Someone who means well in the world and is often misunderstood or taken advantage of.
03:42Injustice is the biggest trigger in a vertical drama.
03:44When you see a very good, hardworking person who not small people can relate to, small groups of people,
03:52but everyone can see a little bit of themselves in this person.
03:56And when you know they're good and they're honest and they're betrayed or somebody, you know, they're cheated on or
04:03something really inflammatory.
04:04I like to create characters where you say, listen, I'm going to root for this person all the way.
04:09And I'm not going to stop watching until I know that sort of justice has been done.
04:15And yeah, I think it's just making someone relatable and someone who you can, their problems are things that you
04:21can relate to, but you see them overcome.
04:22What are the key differences between short dramas and other films such as films and TVs?
04:28I think for film and television, we really focus intensely on character.
04:32We focus on really building an extremely complicated, immersive, rich backstory.
04:40And it's really about how they move and grow over the course of their journey in the film or in
04:48a television show.
04:49But in vertical dramas, we aren't asking as much of our audience.
04:54We have characters that don't really have loads of dynamic change.
04:58We'll see them, they do change and grow over the course of the, but it's not in a drastic way.
05:03We know they're good from the beginning.
05:04They're going to stay that good person, but maybe they gain a little bit more confidence.
05:08Like we don't ask as much of them.
05:10So I think of film and television, it's closer to a Rubik's Cube, something that's complicated that you want to
05:16sit down and work with.
05:17And it's much slower burn.
05:19Vertical dramas offer instant gratification and it's for everyone.
05:24It's not a TV show where you're going to feel like, oh, I don't understand this or I can't really
05:29relate to this.
05:30It's something that everybody, there's core emotional sort of pain points that everyone can relate to.
05:35And vertical dramas really speak to those.
05:37They speak to the majority of people.
05:40When you write your own script, how do you choose topics and where do you usually find inspiration?
05:47When I first started in vertical dramas, I had a lot of topics.
05:52The topics I would write about was really informed by data of what we knew was performing well.
05:57And then it was like, oh, we know these topics are doing well.
06:00Pick one that you think is interesting to you.
06:02And I always love, of course, my go-to is if we have enemies to lovers at any point in
06:06time or a second chance romance.
06:08I think those are fun for me.
06:10But a lot of things were assigned or, hey, we're going to try to explore or experiment in this direction.
06:16Why don't you try doing this?
06:17Let's try doing something different that hasn't really been seen in the vertical space.
06:20So I got to do some experimental verticals that sort of like push the boundaries or move in a different
06:26direction to sort of test if our audiences were interested in it.
06:30And then inspiration for verticals when I got into doing verticals that were less assigned and things I could really
06:37build from scratch.
06:39I would really look to friends and family members, sort of personal experiences, people who I've known in my life
06:47who have these really dynamic stories or dynamic ways of speaking and bringing them into the vertical space where you
06:54start thinking,
06:54what is the vertical version of this person in my life look like and how can we sort of recreate
07:00them or reinvent them for the vertical world?
07:03I really enjoy doing that.
07:04You were mentioning about experimenting different topics.
07:07Why do you think those topics can be experienced?
07:11Those were things that we were trying to see.
07:13Let's, for example, Pride and Prejudice was a really fun experiment because at the time there really hadn't been any
07:21adaptations of classics at all.
07:25I was an English major.
07:26I was very much involved in the classic world and being able to go back and say,
07:31how can I take something that's such a widely loved and known topic and or classic and then turn it
07:36into something that works for the vertical audience?
07:39And that was a challenge.
07:41There were certain things that worked really well.
07:42There were certain things that didn't.
07:44And it was a great experiment to see when we're trying to expand into different genres or types or adaptations,
07:52what works for the audience and what doesn't and what did we learn?
07:55So I think that was really fun to just, I got chosen for that project and it was really, I
08:01enjoyed it.
08:01I really had a great time, but it was interesting seeing like, okay, now we know what did we learn
08:07and how can that inform our filmmaking in verticals moving forward?
08:11About the design of our characters, you'll find inspiration from real life.
08:15Is there anything you also want to share when you design your characters?
08:18You have to find people who strike an emotional chord right away in your audience.
08:25It's, you're designing characters that come with a lot of emotional, it's not weight, but it's a very powerful first
08:33impression.
08:33It's somebody who you understand right at first glance.
08:36I understand this is this type of person.
08:38I recently did a show called The CEO and The Country Girl and the main character is someone who's working.
08:43She's a very hardworking, earnest young woman and she's struggling because she's just lost her father and she has to
08:50manage a farm by herself.
08:51And she's the type where she says, I don't need any help.
08:54I'm okay.
08:55I don't need anybody.
08:57But she would like someone to be there to help support her because it's very difficult on her own.
09:02So she meets someone who's also able to, the CEO comes in and helps actually become a very unlikely partner.
09:08So they build their romance and they also build their trust and relationship sort of parallel to each other.
09:15And then they figure out all the places where they don't, where they don't get along and where they do
09:19when they come together.
09:20So I like showing characters who are very earnest.
09:24I look for the hardworking, everyday person who often gets forgotten in mainstream media.
09:30And I like to pull those types of characters into the spotlight in verticals because that's really who I think
09:37doesn't get the spotlight enough.
09:39What do you mean by they're not in the mainstream media?
09:42When we go to the movies nowadays, for the most part, film and television, but a lot of it doesn't
09:48feel relatable.
09:49We see characters in situations and in worlds and certainly in mainstream Hollywood that just are not things that most
09:56everyday people are experiencing or can connect to.
10:00There's moments, but a lot of it is filmmakers within the Hollywood sphere making films for the coasts, making films
10:08for people and our friends.
10:10It's more of what will my peers think about me?
10:12Not like, are we making this film to where most of America can relate to it, can enjoy it, can
10:18feel something.
10:18So I think there's been a big disconnect between who we write films for and what audiences that we're trying
10:26to serve.
10:27And I think we've missed the middle, right?
10:28We have these audiences who are the film audiences and really enjoy films and are very immersed in films.
10:33And then there's people who don't care about them at all.
10:35And then we miss the whole middle point who families, you know, everyday people just don't feel like movies pull
10:43them in the same way anymore.
10:44So I think that we're missing a huge portion of our country and we're not serving them.
10:51And I think vertical dramas are one of the first platform areas to actually serve the quiet middle.
10:58I think we're missing them.
11:00Can you give me an example of what films are portrayed?
11:03What kind of characters some films portrayed in the U.S.?
11:06I saw Caught Stealing, which was a really wonderful Darren Aronofsky film.
11:12And the characters were really dynamic and fun, but it wasn't necessarily something that I feel that many people could
11:22relate to.
11:22Being chased around by thugs, you know, like it's fun to watch.
11:26It's super entertaining.
11:28And we relate to the fact that the main character was an athlete who got injured and can't do that
11:32anymore.
11:32That was very relatable.
11:33But the circumstances that they get into is not, it's fun and it's really enjoyable to go along for the
11:39ride.
11:40But it's not something where people can say like, yeah, this is something that I can relate to in my
11:46every day.
11:46Because not many of us are being chased by criminals and stuff like that.
11:51And those are not meant to necessarily be one-to-one.
11:53But for example, a lot of movies in the 90s, I watched Sister Act 2 the other day,
11:58which was really just a simple story about a school that was in trouble and they were about to close.
12:03And there's a lot of wonderful kids who have musical talent, but they don't believe in themselves.
12:07Their lives are difficult.
12:08And a teacher comes in and she makes all the difference in them believing in themselves and they save their
12:13school.
12:14That's a feel-good story for everybody.
12:16We don't really have this very often anymore.
12:18A lot of stuff is very dark.
12:20So I think that's sort of been the gap.
12:23A lot of films, a lot of television.
12:25We look at Alien Earth, beautiful, amazing, but really dark.
12:29We're missing sort of that point of feel-good, escapist moments in film and TV.
12:36And I think vertical dramas are allowing a certain subsect of the audience to go back to that.
12:42There are a lot of CEO romance stories.
12:44And those CEOs and billionaires, they're not a person who can reach out in real life.
12:49How does that relate to the audience?
12:51Ah, I think the CEO billionaire romances are popular.
12:56Not because women are like, oh, my dream is to have a billionaire husband.
13:00Real life billionaires are nothing like what we have in vertical dramas at all.
13:04But it is the idea of security.
13:07It's the idea of somebody who can, it's a Cinderella story,
13:10of somebody who can step in and provide and really be in charge of what he has created.
13:17And sort of, you know, a woman gets the opportunity to be taken care of in some degree.
13:22And I think a lot of, there's a pain point underneath that where some women feel like,
13:26well, in my marriage, I don't feel like it's an equal partnership.
13:29Or sometimes I want to be pampered.
13:30And sometimes I want to feel protected, taken care of.
13:33And sometimes I feel like I have to do everything myself.
13:36And so the CEO is very much like the prince in all of the fairy tales, right?
13:40Everyday girl is really struggling, like Cinderella.
13:43And she's not treated well by her family.
13:46Nowadays, we could say you're not being treated well at work.
13:48Maybe your family, maybe people around you.
13:50No one sees your true value.
13:52But then someone of high status sees your value and validates your existence.
13:58So that kind of interesting fairy tale moment of just being able to feel seen and to feel secure
14:05is what's underneath that driving CEO romance.
14:09It is not because, it's not even to even, you know, go back on feminist things where
14:13women are saying, oh, we have to have a CEO, a powerful man to take care of us.
14:18It's not that.
14:18But I think it does represent something very deeply rooted underneath,
14:23which is that feeling of wanting to escape of the prince figure that we've all grown
14:28up reading and hearing about.
14:30So I think that's what is underneath that.
14:32Well, you mentioned about verticals are representing some people that were out of the mainstream
14:37or they are not portrayed in men media in a big film.
14:42So you mean that ordinary people, they're the female leads?
14:45Very much so.
14:46Also like the leads themselves, like the female leads who sort of feel like the every girl,
14:51but also the romance audience is not served at all in mainstream media for the most part.
14:59Romance is one of the most underserved in the sort of film community.
15:02There's not many romance films.
15:03There's not many rom-coms anymore.
15:05There's a couple and they're coming out of platforms like Webtoon and web novel platforms
15:10like Wattpad.
15:11Wattpad has been a humongous sort of provider of romantic films and young adult films, early
15:18adult romance.
15:19Colleen Hoover is a massively successful romance writer.
15:22She only just has started to bring her films into sort of the main mainstream film and TV
15:27media space.
15:28But romance is the most lucrative category genre in publishing.
15:34And the amount of movies to support it or meet that need is nowhere near what it could
15:41be.
15:41So I think that's the audience that's being underserved, like women in general, because
15:47Hollywood is not really catered towards, it's not female gaze.
15:50That's a major thing about verticals that change the game is that like it is female.
15:54It is through the female gaze.
15:55It is not male gaze, which is what Hollywood has been for ever.
15:59It's something that's actually taking in our fantasies, our wants, our experiences and
16:03putting them into a television show or I guess a vertical drama in a way that Hollywood
16:10has ignored for a very long time.
16:12In most films, the audience are experiencing something they're never experiencing in their
16:16real life.
16:17Does it happen in verticals?
16:19They're experiencing something.
16:22There's things in verticals where there's a lot of things in verticals, right?
16:25This clearly would never happen.
16:27But I think the difference is, for example, I'm not going to fall down a flight of stairs
16:31and have a CEO catch me.
16:33Maybe that will happen.
16:34That would be really cool.
16:34But I don't think that's going to happen in my everyday life.
16:38But what's fun about verticals and what's different about verticals, I think for the
16:42audiences is that it is that fantasy moment that everyone sort of has that it's a dream,
16:47right?
16:48The prince finds you and finds your glass slipper.
16:51That's what that fantasy is.
16:53The CEO is the one who steps in for you when everyone is treating you badly.
16:57Or a woman whose identity and she's a secret billionaire and everyone doubts her authenticity
17:02and then she's able to show everybody and punish all of her enemies.
17:06That is a fantasy of I will have finally, after being disrespected, I will finally earn
17:10respect.
17:11After being bullied, I can finally put the bullies in their place and rise into the right
17:15to where I belong and earn respect and punish the people who disrespect me.
17:21So things like that are fantasies and we play them out in ways that are not necessarily
17:27this is real life, but that's why they're fun because you can escape.
17:30It's a parody of real life.
17:33And so that's what makes it, I think, very engaging.
17:35It doesn't feel too close, but we can relate to it and still have fun.
17:39In the films, that film you mentioned that the guy or the male leader or female is chased
17:45by thugs, right?
17:46It's not something that will happen in real life.
17:48But what about in verticals?
17:50Yeah.
17:51Well, we have things that are not realistic, absolutely.
17:56But I think because it's certainly in the romance category, because romance is sort of the
18:02main driver, that's where, because we're not, most people are not running into CEOs or being
18:08swept away.
18:09But I think when romance is sort of at the basis of that, or basis of the vertical genre, there's
18:17still that fantasy element where people can say, yes, I'm an everyday girl.
18:21Maybe the main girl is a cleaning woman, or maybe she works at a grocery store, or maybe
18:25she's a really good daughter and her family treats her badly.
18:29That is relatable.
18:30How she ends up falling for the CEO or what happens to her may not be.
18:34The level of abuse is not realistic.
18:37It's sort of campy at best.
18:40But I think that the realistic elements is the emotional truth of the main character's
18:47circumstances, which is like, this is someone who's not seen, or someone who's not respected,
18:52or someone who's not heard.
18:53And they get an opportunity to finally achieve those things.
18:57How do you capture the audience's attention in the first set 10 seconds?
19:02You start right in the middle of a conflict.
19:05You have to get started immediately.
19:07We don't waste much time with setup.
19:09The setup has to be instant, and the conflict needs to be very clear.
19:15When you use things like injustice, when you use things like infidelity, when you use sort
19:21of devices that are a character being done wrong, something shocking happening right off
19:27the bat.
19:28You know, someone being thrown out, disrespected, bullied, or someone simply just finding themselves
19:36down on their luck in a really dramatic way.
19:39It has to be very high drama, high stakes, and high tension.
19:43We don't really have the luxury of time to slowly build into something.
19:49We have to throw our audience in right away and shock them to stop them from scrolling
19:53past.
19:54And then we continue to escalate from there.
19:57Can you give me a more example?
19:59What kind of thing is in the middle of a conflict?
20:02Yes, for example, I'll use an example from one of the shows that I was working on was
20:08my main character was writing back and she was going to celebrate her anniversary with
20:13her boyfriend and decides to walk in and walks in on him cheating with her sister right
20:18away.
20:18So she is excited about being able to have their anniversary and she finds out their anniversary
20:24is ruined.
20:24And then she picks up a shotgun off the wall and points it at him.
20:28So it's something that escalates very quickly.
20:30Obviously, we have the infidelity, we have the hurt and the wrong, and he and the girl
20:35are not remorseful at all.
20:38Again, tapping into that frustration.
20:41How could they do this to her?
20:42And what is she going to do about it?
20:45It's moments like those that I think really help cement the audience into the show in the
20:50first five to 10 seconds.
20:51I also want to add one more question based on the character design.
20:54So do you think the main character should be two or three dimension?
21:01And what about the supporting characters?
21:03I think your main character, we're seeing an interesting sort of shift.
21:11The American audience seems to, there's a want from fans to have characters that have more
21:17dimension.
21:18So I do think that if you can explore giving characters a bit more dimension, but still
21:23following sort of the vertical rules to where they're not so multidimensional that they become
21:29difficult to follow, or it just becomes overcomplex to where that complicates the plot, that complicates
21:37the relationships around them.
21:38We still need to keep a level of simplicity that doesn't alienate audiences.
21:44Yeah, I think that there's the balance of finding out what works for audiences.
21:50What does the data say?
21:52And you can look at vertical dramas that have explored deeper character arcs.
21:55And you have to look at that performance versus ones that explore it less, see where does
22:02it seem to be more successful?
22:03Sometimes people find a middle ground.
22:06But I think it depends on what audience you're serving and who you're trying to reach.
22:11You mean the main character should have more dimensions or the supporting characters should
22:17also have more dimensions?
22:19I think supporting characters have to have less dimension because you can't spend enough time
22:24with them to be able to give them a lot of dimension.
22:26I think your main characters, sometimes it works really well when they're one dimensional.
22:31We have had many vertical dramas where they're not super dimensional.
22:34And there are some where you give them a bit more and they're also successful.
22:39So I think, again, it depends on who you're serving.
22:41And it depends on what data sort of dictates works and what doesn't.
22:47And but again, if you're working in, for example, the more indie space in verticals, like you
22:53have a lot more freedom to give characters explore that dimension, main characters way more
22:57dimension.
22:59But in sort of the mainstream vertical space, I think there's a lot less room for that.
23:06Hopefully there'll be more, but we're approaching it slowly.
23:09How do you use data?
23:12Data is really important in the in the process of being able to recognize what if you have
23:18access to it, which is a privilege, what worked in your show?
23:23What did the audience respond to?
23:24What did you do well and successfully?
23:27And what did they not respond to?
23:29Did your show keep them all the way through?
23:33Where did they leave the show?
23:35Did you sort of lose their attention halfway?
23:37Did you get them to the paywall?
23:39That's very important.
23:40Like, did you get them to the point where they really want to pay for the full show?
23:43Was the opening of the show enough to bring them into the show and get their attention?
23:49Because there's so many verticals.
23:50They have hundreds of thousands of verticals to choose from.
23:54Did you strike a chord right away at the top and get them into the show?
24:00So you use that information to help improve your writing for the next verticals that you do.
24:07So if you find out, like, okay, so my audience, there was a lot of people there at the beginning,
24:13but they didn't go to the paywall.
24:15That means that I took too long with the setups or it was too complicated or I didn't keep their
24:20interest.
24:20So I need to work on really mastering my first 10.
24:24I didn't do a great job with the ad creatives.
24:26I need to do stronger ad creative moments in the first pre-paywall episodes.
24:30Or if you get them past the paywall and they disappear after that, I need to do a better job
24:35of making my story more compelling and stronger so that we keep people in the show all the way to
24:40the end.
24:40So you can use it to directly understand where you need to finesse your writing technique.
24:47I know from the platform perspective, you can see many people are past the paywall of the completion rate.
24:53How do you see people liking this show or not?
24:56Because even people keep watching this.
24:59Some Chinese short dramas, they keep you very angry.
25:02So the audience will keep watching that.
25:04But maybe they don't enjoy it.
25:06They're just so angry.
25:07So they're very unconscious.
25:09They just keep watching until I just want to watch the end.
25:12So how do you know people like it or not?
25:14Is it from social media feedback or what?
25:17I think Jen Cooper has started a platform on Instagram.
25:22And they have a website, Vertical Drama Love.
25:25And it was the first place where my friend sent it to me.
25:28And she was like, hey, they reviewed your show, which was really exciting.
25:31And then I saw that it was the first place that really gathered vertical fans in a place and gave
25:37them an opportunity to openly discuss what they thought about shows.
25:41And then other reviewers popped up.
25:43There's a lot of other reviewing Instagram accounts.
25:47There are some people on influencers on TikTok.
25:49Just for fun, we'll go and comment on what they thought about a vertical show.
25:53So I think we obviously focus a lot on data, but I think we also have to put equal importance
26:00on the fan response.
26:02Because we can have a successful show that makes people really upset and that they really don't like.
26:06But it got numbers maybe because, like you said, it was shocking or it made them angry.
26:11But I think looking at reviews, looking at the comments of what people are saying, how they're responding is really
26:18important.
26:18Because, like, we have to keep ourselves aware of how our audiences are actively feeling about our shows.
26:27You can have a successful show that really many people strongly dislike.
26:32But the numbers won't show that, but the conversations will.
26:35So I think you have to pay attention to both.
26:38And I think we need to do more of really including fans in the conversation for our shows.
26:43I'm also going to interview Jen Cooper next week, actually.
26:46Also, I think it's a good way to build your brain, right, as a drama box.
26:52Because if one show is successful, people are paying that.
26:56But they don't like your show, they'll probably not stay in your platform, right?
26:59So that's important.
27:00So, again, I think really exploring fan responses to shows is a newer avenue.
27:08But I'm really passionate about that because that's the world that I came from at Wattpad.
27:13Everything was the fans' conversation.
27:16You knew exactly what people thought about your story and there was nowhere to hide.
27:19And it was really important to have that information, even though it may have great numbers, they may not be
27:28happy.
27:28Or maybe you lose your audience halfway through.
27:30Or there's, I think we have to sort of also break into the American market and understand how do we
27:37continue to expand?
27:39We have to also know, are we appealing?
27:42Are some of the themes that we're bringing in dramas that are from overseas, does that work for the Western
27:47audience or not?
27:48So, looking at the fans, reading their comments, some of the comments are really detailed and very, very thoughtful, are
27:56really important for, I think, our overall content strategy.
28:01What's the fans' feedback?
28:02How, what kind of accountant do they like?
28:05And what kind of accountant do they dislike?
28:07Can you give me an example?
28:09Oh, yes.
28:09The fans love content with really genuinely strong heroines.
28:14They love a strong female lead.
28:17They are so, they do not like the weak, constantly dependent damsel who can't do anything for herself and is
28:25always waiting to be rescued.
28:27They like, you know, obviously seeing somebody step in to do, you know, if there's a love interest and he
28:33comes in and helps her.
28:34But if she just feels helpless and she has no agency, that is something that American audiences really dislike.
28:41They also dislike abuse.
28:42There's dramas that involve incredible misogyny, physical abuse of the disabled.
28:48Those are horrific and those have sparked many conversations within the creative community and within the fan community about where
28:56do we draw the line?
28:57Because some of those themes are eye-catching and they're great for numbers, but they are unacceptable to us culturally.
29:06So that is a major conversation.
29:09I've spoken to many creatives who say, listen, I don't want to be a part of dramas that are going
29:13to be doing these themes.
29:15So that's a very important thing for the future of vertical dramas.
29:18We have to pay attention to where we culturally are aligning and where we are crossing lines.
29:25There's something we mentioned about that's called shock value because short dramas or verticals are driven by acquisition.
29:32And how do you track people's attention while not giving too much violence or that?
29:39How do you have the shock value?
29:41That is that's the grand question of how do we do that the right way?
29:44I think there are ways to tell stories that are just as shocking without having to resort to really attacking
29:52certain groups of people.
29:53We can tell a shocking story without having to, you know, beat up a disabled person.
29:59We don't. That's horrible.
30:00We don't need to do that.
30:01That's that is low hanging.
30:03I want to call it low hanging fruit.
30:05That's clickbait.
30:06And I understand its mechanism and I understand why it works, but it is not something that we have to
30:11do.
30:11You can tell a story by showing somebody in a situation where they're being discriminated against or they're, you know,
30:18they're being mistreated.
30:19It doesn't have to involve because there's shows that don't involve at all that are equally successful.
30:24I think it's about how you approach it.
30:26And I think it just takes a bit more consciousness.
30:29But I think we have to be very careful in terms of saying we're going to do this.
30:34You know, what lines are we willing to cross to get people into the shows?
30:38It's complicated.
30:39Sometimes you do have to cross those lines.
30:41I've seen it happen.
30:43And you have to also pay attention to how fans are responding.
30:47So I think if there's a shift where we see that audiences are not engaging the way they used to
30:53with shock value dramas, that's when I hope it'll sort of work from the ground up where they say, obviously,
30:58this type of CPI moment isn't working anymore.
31:02Or it sparked a very negative conversation or negative press that I think will make a bigger impact.
31:09So I'm hoping we can move away from things like that.
31:13Right.
31:14And how do you design your hooks and what makes a good hook?
31:18I think what makes a good hook is something where you have an unanswered question, always an unanswered question, or
31:25you leave sort of that need to be fulfilled in the audience member's mind of having to know what's going
31:30to happen next.
31:31You leave something unresolved or you don't answer a question.
31:35You always have to, it's very much like music where you have an unresolved chord.
31:40It bothers people subconsciously, even though they don't know it.
31:43They're like, why isn't it resolving?
31:44So continuing to pull people in by ramping up to very high emotional stakes and leaving things off at a
31:53point where you don't know what the outcome is going to be.
31:55And so it's always pushing away that promise of the premise until we get to the end.
32:01We don't deliver on the core expectation until we close out the story.
32:05So I think it's always keeping it like the carrot.
32:08Keep it just out of reach for the audience.
32:10I want to add more question about pacing.
32:12We will always say China pacing is very important.
32:16How do you design pacing in verticals?
32:19We essentially just move as quickly as we can.
32:23It's really about like speed and efficiency, but also making sure that while you're moving quickly, you're still telling a
32:31properly structured story.
32:33You can't move really fast and then all the details are going to fall off and no one understands what's
32:37going on.
32:37You have to be able to balance it to where anyone could pick up your script.
32:43And I think when you've accomplished good pacing, somebody could pick up your script and watch your show and they
32:48go, oh, wow, it's over.
32:49It didn't feel that long.
32:51I think that's a great marker of solid pacing.
32:53When you've done a bad job with pacing, I could be like episode three and I'm like, what?
32:56This isn't 20?
32:57How long is this taking so long?
32:59So I think it's the way in which your audience and even other creatives, if you give them your script
33:04or tell them to watch your show, do they feel like it was a long period of time that passed?
33:08Did they feel like the story kept moving and the stakes kept them interested?
33:12I think it's how does your audience experience time in the story that you've created?
33:17And you have to structure it so they don't feel the time.
33:20About structure, because I've been asked, some people have just asked me how to design the structure.
33:26I know it's a little bit difficult question.
33:28How do you design the structure of the whole vertical of a story?
33:32Oh, that's very detailed.
33:34Like you, this is a complicated process.
33:38So essentially, really starting out with a beat sheet, a very clear beat by beat breakdown of the entire show.
33:44And then understanding, like outlining, what are my CPI moments?
33:48What are those really clear ad moments and really focusing on the first 20 episodes to ensure that we are
33:55really hitting data-proven CPI moments that are going to bother, frustrate, interest the audience, speak, pique their curiosity.
34:06I'm in outlining those.
34:07So I'll usually have like a spreadsheet where you can see, here's the summary of what I'm going to do
34:11for my episode, you know, and I outline where else are we going emotionally?
34:17What do I want the audience to feel?
34:19And then once I work on that with my team and we say, yes, this looks great.
34:24Let's go to script.
34:25But then the writing of the show really actually happens during the outline beat sheet phase for me.
34:33Because once you know that's approved and once you know that that's going to work, scripting it is really fast
34:39because you already know what you're going to do.
34:41Because the conversations, the dialogue for me are already there.
34:44That's the easiest part for me is the conversation.
34:46So the most difficult part is making sure that the marketing area verticals and the setup and getting those first
34:5320 excellent is the most important.
34:56I'm still learning a lot.
34:57I've done a lot wrong.
34:58When I started, I was doing it all wrong.
35:01And it's really a learning process.
35:04But hopefully now I have a much better understanding of how to structure that.
35:08But really, for me, the building out of the show all happens at the beat sheet outline stage.
35:13I'm just curious, why 20 episodes?
35:15I thought the first 10 or 15 are the free episodes.
35:19Why you have to build the 20 episodes?
35:22Because usually when you have really strong drivers, it gives your teams more options for CPI moments that they can
35:29show.
35:29Gives them more options, which is great.
35:32Also, I think the first 20, we really focus on obviously pre-paywall episodes.
35:36Those are the gold.
35:37But first 20, if you're really mastering the episodes after the paywall, it doesn't help you if they leave.
35:43If you have really good pre-paywall and then they pay and then they're like, this isn't very good.
35:47And I'm only on episode 15.
35:49I think in the viewer's mind, when you hit 20 and the story's still good and the pacing is still
35:54strong, they're way more inclined to finish and go all the way through than if you just die right after
36:00an episode.
36:01You're paywall.
36:03And because paywalls keep changing, you have to go a lot further.
36:07And I think 20 is a nice marker point, just script-wise, of being able to say, yep, these are
36:14really solid.
36:15And that should propel the reader or the viewer to keep going for the whole show.
36:20Normally in China, for 65 episodes, our paywall is around 12 to 15.
36:27So you can either cut 12 and 15.
36:31You can build up the whole emotional arc until the 15 or 13 or something.
36:38In the middle of that, you cut it.
36:40And so the audience is so eager to see what's going to happen next.
36:44That's where I've seen it lately.
36:46But I've seen some paywalls on different platforms where it's really early.
36:50And you're like, oh.
36:51But I guess it depends on how they structure the story because sometimes that works.
36:55Normally, how many episodes would you suggest people to write?
36:58Well, this is a conversation that a lot of writers will have where I was used to doing the standard
37:0370 to 80.
37:06But I actually, as a viewer, watching shows and studying what shows I feel like this works really well,
37:13I've actually found that doing shows that have anywhere between 50 to 60 episodes are stronger
37:20because you don't have to extend the plot past the point where you feel like it's really going to work.
37:28I think when we get to 70, 80 episodes, because of the nature of how the short drama episodes are
37:34structured
37:34and they have to be so high stakes all the time, the story begins to unravel a little bit.
37:39And there are many writers who talk about this.
37:40They're like, it's much easier and it's much better.
37:43I feel like I'm writing better shows when I do it less episodes because it just allows me to keep
37:49the story much more contained
37:50and you don't have to extend so much of the drama as long, like kind of past the point where
37:55it seems really succinct and well put together.
37:58So the average I know is 70 to 80, but I've seen a lot of different platforms experimenting with doing
38:06shorter shows.
38:08Yeah, like 50s or so.
38:09And in North America, vertical is still dominated by CEO romance stories.
38:15And what other types of story do you think could be explored and why?
38:19I really would love horror to be explored because horror is a really natural fit for the vertical space.
38:26Because I like sort of the romance setups, horror also doesn't require much.
38:32You can get people into a story, you can do setups very quickly, you can have really engaging clips that
38:38are frightening and keep people engaged without having to do a lot of building.
38:46Characters can just exist and be thrown into circumstances.
38:49So I would love to see the horror genre enter the vertical space.
38:54I don't know if we can really combine the worlds of romance fans who are the majority of our vertical
39:02viewers with horror.
39:04I know there have been attempts and it doesn't seem to go very well.
39:07But I think if there were platforms that were dedicated to horror specifically, like this platform is for vertical horror
39:15fans, that would be a different discussion.
39:17I think that'd be interesting to explore because we're not trying to mix audiences.
39:22We are catering to two separate fan bases where they are.
39:28So I think that would be interesting.
39:30But yeah, maybe horror can expand audience category.
39:34In China, like half female audience, half male audience, actually.
39:39We have a strong male-oriented stories.
39:41And how do you see the male-oriented story in vertical space?
39:45I know it's haven't been explored yet.
39:47Yeah, we were talking about this the other day.
39:50is that there's been a very few, they're still mostly geared towards women, but the male-oriented stories are really
39:58ones where sort of like, watch out, I'm the final boss.
40:02They usually are in revenge or hidden identity, hidden billionaire, like someone who appears to be weak and is secretly
40:10strong.
40:11And I think that does appeal to male audiences in the sense that it's just like, you know, status is
40:16very important to them and being valued.
40:19By their significant other, by their family, by their peers is really important.
40:25And I think if we're, you know, Real Short had a great show, The Lost, I think it was The
40:30Lost Quarterback, which was male-oriented.
40:32And it did because it sort of, it involves sports.
40:35So I think for U.S. audiences, there has to be a sports tie-in to some degree.
40:40That's a great way to sort of bring in male viewers.
40:42The tricky thing is, I don't know, I think it's more brand association, where for guys, when they think about
40:49vertical dramas, they think romance.
40:51They think werewolf, CEO, billionaires.
40:54They don't think it's for them.
40:55So that's not really where they're going to spend their time.
40:58It'd be something where it's like, I don't want to be caught watching a vertical drama.
41:01Like, I'm not, you know, I think that's not, it feels like it's not for them.
41:06But creating content where that appeals to men, I guess, that makes, that appeals to the fantasies and the pain
41:15points that they have.
41:16Like, that would sort of exist in its own space.
41:19I think, I don't know if at this point, we will bring male viewers in record numbers into a platform
41:25that is largely dominated by romance, female gaze romance.
41:30It's just not for them.
41:31So I think that's the tricky part.
41:33It's like, do you create a separate space?
41:35Is it another platform or another version of your platform that is specifically for guys?
41:40Is it branded differently?
41:41I think those are some of the questions, because I think if we're going to pitch it to the American
41:47male audience, it has to feel like it was made for them.
41:51Not like, oh, we just added a couple of things and you're going to join us.
41:54Yeah.
41:55That's a very interesting point.
41:57It's like Lululemon.
41:58I think a lot of guys think Lululemon is for female.
42:01I don't buy this, although I think it's good stuff.
42:03I don't buy it, right?
42:05Like, I wonder if it'll be like TV with cable, where it's like, we know that like, most of the
42:10guys probably are watching.
42:11They're watching ESPN because they get to watch sports and that's what they enjoy.
42:14And they know that when they go to ESPN, we know that that's mostly male-targeted programming.
42:19But like, how do we create that, but in a drama form for guys?
42:26I don't know if it's on the same platform or if we need to make a separate universe for that.
42:31But it still works the same way, but it's just clearly this is male-oriented content.
42:36I don't know.
42:37America may have to be that type of split.
42:39Short drama started in China first round with male-oriented stories.
42:44Yeah.
42:45But that was never meant to shoot for women.
42:47And then they expanded to families, to females in bigger cities.
42:51So that's a completely different way.
42:53In the U.S., it's expanded in male, female audience first.
42:57So a lot of people, maybe they know about short drama.
43:00They do think it's for female, just for love story.
43:03Yeah.
43:04America's big on brand association.
43:06So if they see an article that says, and they see like a picture of like a romance type of
43:13cover,
43:13and it's got a pink background, that doesn't say that this is male-oriented content.
43:22You know, for like, it just doesn't speak, like the branding doesn't look like it's something that's for them.
43:27So I think somebody has to be the platform that creates a space that is like, this is all content
43:36that is specifically catering to that audience.
43:38So they know, oh, I can go and watch this.
43:40And it's not something where they're like, I'm also watching like billionaire romance.
43:47How do you feel, see the future of short drama?
43:51I'm really excited to see how the American market manages like genre expansion.
43:58Because everyone wants to do something.
44:01Everyone wants to do a new genre.
44:02Everyone was like, oh, can we do horror?
44:04Can we do thriller?
44:06I know in China, there's, it's like amazing crime thrillers and all kinds of really exciting dramas that are being
44:12done that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface because we don't know how to, again, like, how do
44:18we bring those audiences into this space?
44:22And how do we experiment?
44:23And we try a new genre and it doesn't work.
44:27How do we crack the code?
44:28Do we keep at it until we figure it out?
44:31It's very much of the American way.
44:32Or do we just stick with what the data says is safe?
44:35Like, that's sort of the difficulty is that American audiences really want to get into and the American, you know,
44:42platform makers are really looking to explore how do we start, how do we become the platform where people go
44:48to us for, how do we become that?
44:51So I think I'm curious to see what is built to serve different genres.
44:56If those genres continue to prove unsuccessful on sort of the mainstream platforms, will there be, who are going to
45:04be the platforms that do it?
45:05Do it and serve their vertical audiences really well in a specific genre.
45:10So that's what I'm excited to see.
45:11How do you see AI is going to change or replace some verticals or scripts or production?
45:18How do you see AI in short dramas?
45:21Yeah, I think that's, that's a really important question.
45:24I think AI, this idea that like you can do, like, I know everyone in the press was like, oh,
45:29verticals written by AI.
45:31It's like, you know, these are written by people.
45:33And actually, when they try to write verticals with AI, they're horrific.
45:37It just can't, like, you'd be surprised.
45:40There isn't much that goes into crafting a vertical drama.
45:43I know people think it's simple.
45:44It is anything but.
45:45But it needs a lot of guidance.
45:49It needs, because these are emotional stories, it needs that human emotional touch.
45:53And it needs someone who understands the arc of it.
45:55So I think AI could be a tool to help streamline parts of the process to make it simpler.
46:02Maybe you could figure out how to help, like, a writer could build it into their workflow.
46:08We're like, okay, well, I have to come up with the, I need to shorten my summary, or I need
46:11to do, you know, you could find ways to integrate it to make parts of the process, maybe generating pitch
46:18decks simpler.
46:20But at the end of the day, I think that there has to be this, there has to, it's never
46:25going to be fully, fully in the near future.
46:27Because there's, like, again, you could do AI scripts, and if they don't perform, you're back to square one.
46:33So it's, you know, trying to figure out, it's not as simple as, like, once AI cracks the code, it
46:38will be able to produce scripts that work every single time.
46:41It won't.
46:43That's the reality.
46:44So I think, in production, I've seen AI-generated vertical dramas.
46:49It's very bizarre.
46:50I think one of the key, one of the most important parts of vertical dramas for fans are those actors.
46:56That star power is bringing people to this space.
47:00The fandoms, there have been fan pages, like many actor friends of mine are like, there's people who have made
47:04fan pages of me, and they're really connected to their fans.
47:07And they're very dedicated to supporting, and they follow the actors to different shows.
47:13You know, they see them on different platforms, they'll watch them everywhere.
47:15So the human connection is critical for this vertical space.
47:20Like, what has built the fandom are the faces that come to bring these stories to life and bring these
47:27fantasies to life.
47:28So I think without that, and having AI-generated talent, it's not the same experience.
47:33It's something else, but it's not what fans come for, where you can't actually, you have an AI machine.
47:42It's not a human who you feel connected to.
47:45So I think because it's such an emotional exchange, there will be limitations in terms of how far AI can
47:52go in the near future.
47:54Who knows, but I think for what it is now and why it's successful, I think AI could be an
48:00assistant, but it cannot be the full suite.
48:03So I think it's a great way to do that.
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