00:00And joining me now, I can't hear any.
00:05Expert, Harish Salve. Mr. Salve, really appreciate your time.
00:08Sir, under Article 164, if a chief minister like Mahmouda Banerjee loses her own seat
00:15and her party loses the election decisively, but refuses to resign,
00:20what are the options before the governor?
00:27Well, you hold office during the pleasure of the governor.
00:32Like the prime minister holds office during the pleasure of the prime minister,
00:35of the president, in the sense that the constitution doesn't set out the circumstances,
00:40but it's obvious that the governor can demand the resignation of the chief minister
00:46and, if necessary, remove the chief minister.
00:48But this is, I don't think, this is anything more than a political statement.
00:53Yes, it's a transatlantic virus, as I call it, which has come,
00:57and we maybe want to repeat, of Capitol Hill and Calcutta.
01:03And, well, if the leader of the world's greatest, the world's richest democracy can do this,
01:08why not the leader of West Bengal?
01:12So, I think this is a new disease we are getting.
01:17We are seeing this in the world, and, you know, it bothers me to see how
01:23constitutional leaders now are completely dismissive of a rule-based order.
01:31In a rule-based order, you like some decisions, you don't like some decisions.
01:35But the rules must prevail over your personal choice.
01:40And you can say, I'm sorry, with respect, I disagree with the judgment of the court,
01:44but I obey it. I disagree with the judgment of the election commission, but I obey it.
01:47If each one of us becomes prosecutor, judge, and jury in our own course,
01:52then you go from a rule-based order to a person-based order.
01:55What I say is right, what anybody else says is right.
01:57And that completely undermines any democracy.
02:01But this is all in theory, and I think this is a good wake-up sign for India
02:08to see that we don't go the American way.
02:11Okay.
02:12Mr. Salve, in such a stalemate, many would say that this is a stalemate,
02:16stalemate, which has been created by a defeated chief minister,
02:20who has refused to resign.
02:22You have spoken about the constitutional options,
02:24but a seventh is when the tenure of this assembly comes to an end.
02:29What happens in the interim?
02:32No, it's very clear.
02:34She, at best, can be continued till the seventh.
02:37After which the term of the assembly comes to an end,
02:39the governor can invite her to be a caretaker chief minister,
02:43or he may not.
02:45So, if the governor says,
02:47I do not invite you to become a caretaker chief minister,
02:50you may have president's rule till the next government is sworn in.
02:54Unlike the union,
02:56in the states, you have that option
02:59of having governor's rule till the next government.
03:01government comes in.
03:02Well, it may just be for three days.
03:07So, that's why I said this is storm in a teacup,
03:09but it's a good wake-up call for India
03:12to see that we do not go down the way
03:17certain other countries have gone.
03:21You know, Mr. Salve,
03:23it's one thing for leaders to claim moral victory,
03:29but here is Mahmouda Banerjee
03:32completely dismissing a decisive mandate
03:35that people of Bengal have given to the BJP,
03:38instead saying that the election commission
03:40has helped the BJP win 100-plus seats.
03:43You know, what has happened recently, sir,
03:46is that in repeated elections,
03:48opposition parties have said that
03:50this is some kind of subversion of people's mandate.
03:59Rahul Gandhi is saying so
04:01in the context of Maharashtra and Haryana as well.
04:05With this kind of repeated charge
04:07against election commission in particular,
04:10do you think that entire concept
04:13of free and fair election
04:15is facing a huge question by the opposition?
04:20Fortunately, and I say so in a lighter way,
04:24unfortunately, I mean,
04:27our prime minister,
04:28who's an enormously popular leader,
04:30Amit Shahji and all,
04:31they all go and campaign
04:32and Mr. Gyaninder Kumar gets the credit.
04:37You know,
04:38it's they who are only winning elections,
04:40not the election commissioner.
04:42So this kind of a thing is absolutely,
04:44it's trivializing the constitution.
04:47I'm sorry to say,
04:48it's trivializing the constitution.
04:49Also,
04:51people who aspire to hold constitutional office,
04:56not people who want to have
04:58a revolution overthrowing the constitution.
05:02People who aspire to hold constitutional office
05:05must do so
05:05within the framework of the constitution.
05:09And in the framework of the constitution,
05:11you have the judiciary,
05:12you have the election commission,
05:13you have institutions.
05:15Secondly,
05:16under our representation of people act,
05:19a voters list and an election are decoupled.
05:22You can never challenge an election
05:24on the ground that the voters list
05:25had errors in it.
05:27It's different if a particular
05:30election has been derailed,
05:32not as per the voters list,
05:34but that the voters list itself
05:35had certain names included
05:37or not included,
05:38et cetera,
05:38cannot be a ground for challenging an election
05:40because otherwise no election would be certain.
05:43So,
05:44people who aspire for constitutional office
05:46must live within the constitution.
05:49The SIR was challenged
05:51in the Supreme Court.
05:52The Supreme Court
05:53considered the matter
05:54on multiple occasions,
05:57set down a procedure.
05:58If any names have been wrongly omitted,
06:00they will come back on the list.
06:02But the Supreme Court was asked,
06:04what happens about these elections?
06:06They said,
06:06well,
06:06these elections have to go on
06:07the way they are.
06:09Now,
06:09you have to accept that.
06:10And I think everybody accepted,
06:13including
06:14Malta Banerjee.
06:15She went to the polls.
06:17She went and asked people for votes.
06:19She didn't get the votes.
06:21We have to live with it.
06:23She can later on,
06:24if
06:25all the 2.7 million people
06:27who have been disenfranchised,
06:29if all of them are put back
06:30on the rolls,
06:31she can say,
06:32well,
06:32I have a moral victory,
06:33which also is a deeply flawed argument,
06:35let me tell you,
06:36because you are then assuming
06:38that those 2.7 people
06:39have no mind,
06:40have no will,
06:41and they are your slaves
06:42who would have voted for you mindlessly.
06:45I'm sorry.
06:46That is a very unfair
06:50assumption
06:50in a democracy.
06:51How do you know that
06:53those 2.7 people,
06:55each and every one of them,
06:56would have voted for you?
06:58How do you know
06:59they were satisfied
06:59with the way you run the government
07:00last five years?
07:01How do you know
07:02they have not changed their mind?
07:03How do you know
07:03that they have not felt persuaded
07:07by the Prime Minister
07:09and by the others
07:09who have come and campaigned
07:11that,
07:12all right,
07:12our development
07:14is falling back,
07:15let's give the BJP a chance.
07:16How can you make that assumption?
07:18You are insulting
07:19those 2.7 million people.
07:21I am assuming
07:22that there are such a
07:23body of 2.7 million
07:25who have been disenfranchised.
07:27So,
07:27you know,
07:28these kind of statements
07:29ill behove somebody
07:30who wants to hold
07:31a constitutional office.
07:33But anyway,
07:34this will all last
07:34for hopefully 48 hours.
07:36Okay,
07:37but Mrs. Salve,
07:38you know,
07:39repeatedly in India,
07:41post-2024,
07:42every election
07:43after the results
07:45has faced this question
07:46of absence
07:47of level playing field.
07:49And we are seeing
07:50this repeated charge
07:51of misuse
07:52of agencies
07:53and that the election commission
07:55doesn't act
07:56in a fair manner.
07:57All this charge
07:58coming out
07:59repeatedly
08:00by opposition
08:01against the election commission.
08:02what should
08:03the election commission do?
08:05Shouldn't it also
08:06make an effort
08:07to have,
08:09to perhaps ensure
08:11that the opposition parties
08:13have some faith in them?
08:15See,
08:16I'll tell you
08:16the problem today
08:19is not
08:20what the election commission
08:21is or is not doing.
08:23Yes,
08:24every institution
08:24has a lot of scope
08:25for improving,
08:27including improving
08:28its communication skills.
08:30But I have noticed
08:31and I say so
08:32with a sense
08:33of deep concern
08:35for the country.
08:36In the last 10 years,
08:38I have noticed
08:39once again
08:40some kind of
08:41a transatlantic virus
08:43which has come into India.
08:44It's my truth
08:45and your truth.
08:48So,
08:49if either you agree with me
08:52or you're a liar,
08:55it happens in courts.
08:56If the court decides
08:57a particular,
08:59I bring an issue
08:59to the court
09:00and the court decides
09:01in my favor,
09:01what a great judiciary.
09:02If not,
09:03they are sold
09:05or they are being dishonest.
09:07So,
09:08we have seen this
09:09and this has come
09:10from the time
09:12the system
09:13has changed
09:14in 2014.
09:16Some people
09:17who have got displaced
09:18are unable
09:19to accept
09:20that there has been,
09:21India has seen
09:22certain foundational changes
09:24in the way
09:25India looks at life.
09:27Yes.
09:28and these are
09:30evolutions
09:31in the life
09:33of a nation.
09:33You have to accept them.
09:35Nobody has
09:36a vested right.
09:38So,
09:39this kind of a thing
09:40of creating
09:41this false narrative
09:43by some people
09:44who feel
09:45they are entitled
09:45to rule
09:46and if you take that away
09:47then there has to be
09:48something wrong
09:49with the system.
09:50this vocabulary
09:51has to go back,
09:52go away.
09:53It wasn't like this
09:54and it shouldn't be like this.
09:56Even Mrs. Gandhi
09:57in 77
09:57elected,
10:00accepted defeat.
10:01She had never
10:02denied defeat.
10:05Last question
10:06and I'm going
10:06to go back
10:07to where we began,
10:09Mr. Salve.
10:10To prevent
10:11a governance
10:12vacuum,
10:13especially
10:14if
10:15Mahmata Banerjee
10:16attempts to function
10:17beyond a legitimate
10:18caretaker
10:20chief minister
10:20with limited
10:22decision-making
10:23powers,
10:24what can the
10:24governor do?
10:26There's no question
10:27of her continuing.
10:30The governor
10:31will,
10:32after two days,
10:33she ceases
10:34to be
10:35in office.
10:37The governor
10:38will say,
10:38I remove you
10:39and he will
10:40have president's
10:42rule imposed,
10:42finished.
10:43And there is a question
10:44of putting the
10:45assembly under
10:45suspended animation
10:46because there is
10:47no assembly
10:47after two days.
10:48And then
10:50a fresh assembly
10:51will be called.
10:52There will be
10:52a pro-term speaker.
10:53He will give
10:54oath to all the
10:54people who have
10:55won.
10:57And I mean,
10:58if she wants
10:58to continue,
10:59then she will
10:59have to have
11:00her own oath.
11:00Because see,
11:01even if she
11:02had won
11:02the election,
11:03she would
11:04have had
11:04to go
11:05back,
11:06take fresh
11:07oath.
11:07All her
11:09MLAs would
11:09have had
11:09to take
11:10fresh oath.
11:10And then
11:11she would
11:12have been
11:13reappointed
11:14as a chief
11:15minister.
11:15So she
11:16can't continue.
11:16So if she
11:17wants to have
11:17a charade
11:18of having
11:18her own
11:19oath-taking
11:19ceremony
11:19of people
11:20whom she
11:20thinks has
11:21won and
11:22create a
11:22parallel
11:23government
11:23outside the
11:24government,
11:24I mean,
11:25that's another
11:25story.
11:26So tell me,
11:26what is the
11:26status of
11:27Mamata
11:27Manaji
11:28right now
11:28according to
11:29you legally?
11:30Well, the
11:31governor has
11:31not asked
11:32her to
11:32vacate.
11:33So she
11:33is continuing
11:34as a caretaker
11:35chief minister.
11:36If the
11:37governor do
11:37issue appropriate
11:38orders,
11:39and either he'll
11:39impose
11:40president's rule,
11:41because there's
11:41no vacuum,
11:42either he will
11:43impose
11:43president's rule,
11:44although,
11:45sorry,
11:45to correct
11:46myself,
11:47either the
11:47union will
11:48impose
11:49president's rule
11:49on the
11:50recommendation
11:50of the
11:50governor,
11:52or she
11:53continues till
11:537th,
11:54and then he
11:55imposes
11:55president's
11:56rule,
11:58or she
11:59gracefully
11:59says,
12:00okay,
12:00this was a
12:01burst of
12:01anger,
12:02in which
12:03case she
12:03continues as
12:04a caretaker
12:04chief minister
12:05for another
12:05week till
12:06everybody is
12:07warning.
12:08All right.
12:08Mr. Salve,
12:09really appreciate
12:09your time.
12:10Thank you for
12:10joining us.
Comments