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03:50New York è un'islande, culturale.
04:16And the city was dangerous, it was a rough place.
04:22And as a middle-class kid from Wisconsin, I was turned on by that.
04:46It was an explosion of experimentation and a lot of work that was being made
04:52by people that weren't necessarily careerists, nor were they necessarily trained in what
04:58they were doing.
04:59La sfida al teatro commerciale viene da off-Broadway e in senso letterale vuol dire fuori, lontano
05:05da Broadway.
05:06Perciò si è sempre voluto dire lontano dai clamori e dalle luci, dall'eleganza e dall'esibizionismo
05:12di brutto.
05:41I came as a mother.
05:42I wanted to be an artist, and so I came to New York, I had a studio, I was doing
05:50photography
05:50and drawing, and I got drawn into that world by mistake, really, I just, they offered me
05:57a job, I was poor, I got a job, assistant directing Richard Schechner in the performance
06:03group, and so I learned on the job, I really, to me, New York was just an exciting place
06:11for art, at the time, but I didn't know much about theater, go find help, what a feeble
06:20ninth bird overcome by misfortune beats at my door, can this be the great adventure, the
06:33might of all Corinth, excuse me, I'm sorry, bad, I went to acting school for two years
06:50at Stella Adler, I studied with Stella Adler, but I knew I didn't want to be an actress,
06:57and get a picture and a resume and try and get work, so I switched over to one last semester
07:05to the experimental theater wing, and I saw first a mind-blowing experience of squat theater.
07:16Lo squat theater, gruppo di punta della più recente avanguardia internazionale, non
07:21lavora più in un teatro, ma in negozi affacciati sulla strada. Mentre il pubblico dall'esterno
07:28segue quest'azione dai vetri, quello all'interno segue nel video gli interventi ripresi fuori,
07:34tra gli spettatori chiamati a partecipare.
07:40Nei teatri alla buona, che nascono e vivono un mese, teatri ambulanti che si sistemano
07:45alla meglio nelle vecchie case in attesa di demolizione, in vecchi magazzini riadattati
07:50da personaggi volonterosi, gli attori delle compagnie sono affezionati militanti, che fanno
07:55tutti i mestieri in attesa delle due ore di ebbrezza dello spettacolo.
07:58People that were taking buildings, entering them, finding a way to work and making work.
08:14What stayed with me from that period, is of course sometimes the best experimentation
08:20comes from the naïve, or the amateurial that do it just for love, that it's not, it's
08:27outside of a professional or institutional context.
08:57Non permesso a chi voleva fare un certo tipo di teatro di realizzarlo.
09:42Grazie a tutti.
09:58Oggi c'è un interesse dilagante per tentare di fare un teatro
10:01la cui struttura non dipende dal testo,
10:03proprio perché le giovani generazioni sono internazionali
10:06ed è giusto che un lavoro possa essere dato in qualsiasi paese.
10:57in baltimore maryland and i met richard and we had a good talk and he said listen why don't you
11:04come to new york and if you come to new york maybe you can do something with me and that's
11:10what
11:10happened and he had a company called the performance group and i started working with them
11:19penso che siano cambiate molte cose c'è senza dubbio una crisi nei rapporti tra il teatro e
11:24i temi le battaglie politiche intanto bisogna considerare che il periodo dell'azione
11:28politica diretta è chiaramente finito almeno per il momento quanto a ciò che il teatro può fare
11:33politicamente siamo attualmente interessati a cercare nuovi tipi di pubblico vorrei che il
11:38mio gruppo si esibisse semplicemente all'aperto nelle piazze dei villaggi nei parchi o dovunque
11:42sia possibile a prezzi comunque sempre molto modesti già adesso quando ci esibiamo nella
11:47nostra sede proprio qui ad esempio con il nostro ultimo spettacolo di cui vedete le immagini
11:52ramstick road vendiamo i biglietti a 90 centesimi viene un pubblico di portoricani di neri di
11:57bianchi poveri questo è il pubblico per il quale preferiamo recitare
12:01schegner was the god of the body you know um dionysus in 69 you know it's extraordinary the
12:12physicality are you making love or are you watching a play who knows you know and of course the way
12:18that the worcester group becomes the performance group is one of the great examples of theater
12:27taking over the stage when the actors become the makers good evening my name is william finley
12:37a son of william finley carried for nine months by dorothy rainwright and delivered by a doctor whose
12:44name i cannot remember i've come here tonight for several important reasons the first and most
12:52important of which is to announce my divinity the second is to establish my rites and rituals
13:01and the third is to be born if you'll excuse me
13:08because the uh the divinity you see
13:14really you shouldn't have a need for this because it is important to remember
13:32i wanted to get rid of the proscenium altogether and work in a now they call it black box theater
13:40there weren't any things when i began like that it just in a big open space i call it the
13:44performing
13:44garage and we reconstructed that space entirely for each each performance i think here at the
13:51biennale you showed a film of dionysus in 69 which is the first performance in that particular space but
13:58not my first experiment in that mode that was what put me on the map because new york critics saw
14:03it and
14:03and so on and so forth my fellow citizens and citizens of wooster street you have nothing to lose
14:11no more rituals we want the real thing
14:19i did maybe three shows with him and that is the company that the wooster group was born out of
14:26because all the people actually that founded the wooster group were part of that performance uh group
14:39the wooster group is named after wooster street which is the street in soho a place in new york
14:46that was originally a warehouse district there was no domestic life there in fact there was only one
14:53bar within about a 15 minute walk so i think it was easy to get a space there to be
15:00able to buy a space
15:02because people sold it for cheaply people sold it cheaply
15:10you can cut that
15:15well the wooster group is the more seminal experience the more important experience
15:20because i spent 27 years with them where richard i spent probably five and there was an overlap there
15:30the wooster group made formed me as a person informed me of my taste and my instincts and while i'll
15:38tell
15:39you that every time i do something whether it's theater or film i try to start from zero you know
15:43there's certain things that always remain and the thing that always remains is i'm less interested in
15:50in interpretation and i'm more interested in inhabiting things i'm more interested in event
15:58and doing things task oriented approach to performing
16:08commit to an action have it transform you be sincere and transparent enough that the audience
16:15can have that experience with you get rid of yourself get rid of your self-consciousness your
16:21images what you bring into the room get rid of it and then have what's in the room and what
16:27you're
16:27making work on you and change you so it's that shift that barbara talked about from representational
16:34theater to a theater that transforms some guy named spanner means square balls in spanish got
16:40chunks capiche she starts yelling dead meat dead meat don't touch and i'm beating at it with a rubber
16:45snake animal tracks bear bait i give it everything i got and i get nothing a guy like me never
16:51learns
16:51blow that bubble out of your lip and spit piss still boy my heart pumps piss for your problems
16:56nettleson it's bitch or beef where i come from hang him on a string or hang him on a hook
17:00if you got
17:01the equipment don't push me stew you're reading my tombstone your tombstone oh that's a good one
17:05you know you're like my old lady used to be well i told her what for i told her i
17:10ain't eating your
17:11smelly meatloaf anymore you can find some fat dyke to shag your rug and that finished it ended it i
17:17cut it
17:18off right there yeah sure did stew the work process with the worcester group uh was always um different
17:24each time we would get some sort of physical discipline in the beginning we would dance for
17:29hours before even starting work one thing to know about the worcester group is it was a true company
17:35and many of the people stayed there for many years and we worked every day i'll bet you go diving
17:42for
17:42oyster all you can don't you meddleson huh a regular little muff puppy get your fag to scrape your
17:47cheese bug fuck you mean me baby yeah you queer bait that's it still i'm gonna kill him we worked
17:54every day not only maintaining the theater but also working on new work we toured a lot we'd often
17:59perform shows in progress we developed them with showing them to audiences
18:18and we'd work on them sometimes for years which sounds very precious but they they evolved um the work
18:25was generally usually uh elizabeth lecomte the very strong director of the company even though it was
18:33collective she was really the mother of us all it's i'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
18:45oh danny boy oh danny boy i love you so elizabeth lecomte was my assistant director
18:56from 1971 through to 1974 75 and she performed in five or six of my performances in sam shepherd's tooth
19:07of crime and she was in a chorus that we had she played yvette and the peasant woman in breck's
19:15mother
19:15courage and her children she played marilyn monroe in a in a piece called the marilyn project and she
19:23played in a piece called cops with willem defoe where he came into the group and that was the
19:29first time that he worked with her so she has a long experience as as a director an assistant director
19:38and as an actress as they she was developing what became the worcester group came out of the performance
19:48group
19:58we weren't interested in so much interpreting the story or presenting the story as using them almost
20:04using texts almost iconographically taking things apart and then putting them back together in a way
20:11that was meaningful to us
20:17i think we were constructing the text we either have a given text or sometimes we use two or three
20:24texts
20:24that come together in some way and for me i'm always hearing it for the first time
20:31yeah you know i mean you asked me if it was like a party or something you know it wasn't
20:35like a party it
20:36was like a revolution so constructing it i don't do it in my head beforehand i come and hear it
20:43from the
20:44actors and from the performers and from the technicians we all work on it together and we all read it
20:50together and even the technicians read the parts and so i discover the texts with the company
20:59we were reading aloud oftentimes we read aloud from whatever book is of interest to liz and she can't
21:05really finish it herself and she likes to hear people read and it informs everybody because then
21:12everybody all the technical artists the performers everyone in the room we're developing a culture a new
21:18culture for each piece so everybody's in on all the readings of all the books and then they play with
21:24that too and they begin to know how to play with that cry cry but the ringing in my ears
21:34wasn't a reminder
21:36of physical problems and they play within it but it's also it's a different thing every time they do it
21:46it's different there's nothing that's totally locked in there
21:55elizabeth lecomte doesn't take a script and say break it into beats and say this is what it means and
22:03we're going to make a metaphor out of the words on the page
22:09the choices that we make in terms of editing are problem solving
22:20so a lot of choices are made quite pragmatically and other times it's what our modern audiences can
22:29bear time is different now for people if it it would take four hours to do hamlet well that's not
22:36going
22:36it's not going to fly with uh modern audiences
22:53i'm just a child of my own treachery how does the queen she swooms to see them
23:09so there's always a different way sometimes we worked with the text that was already there
23:14and usually we use the parts that we wanted so we make a choice to edit it or excerpt it
23:21or what works
23:22or what resonates and a lot of that has to be found out in the rehearsal room
23:35liz always is scoring the pieces with whatever sound artist she's working with that's a main
23:42quality of worcester group work is the orchestration sonically
23:49there's a little song i know maybe you know it too
23:53oh i do know it i do
23:57there's a place in france where the women wear no pants and the men walk around with
24:06for me it's like a game it should be a fun game
24:18if some critics talk about my voice i don't know what to say
24:23because i'm not particularly trained but certainly in the theater you get an opportunity to use your
24:31voice in many extreme ways
24:42she would usually have an architecture for the space
24:46by the way i wanted to judge you're maryland's house boy get it
24:50she's looking for the living metaphor in this space and always when i first came to the group
24:57she was working with super eight film and projecting the film onto the house you know jack
25:03maybe the answer is spiritual
25:07yeah it's becoming more and more obvious to me every day in every show there is a house
25:16of some sort in a structure that represents the house whether it's the metal studs the aluminum studs
25:24or the walls and the house is transformed
25:34it surprised me what strength you've got almost supernatural
25:44one ought to wrestle and strive and be physically close it makes one sane
25:52in 1980 she bought four monitors four sony monitors and those monitors traveled with us
26:01through a number of pieces i can't work anymore i won't work anymore i'm sick of it i've had enough
26:09the tv was very integrated into the performance of the theatrical figure the theatrical body of the
26:18after on stage in front of you with the mediated image of a person who might be performing live but
26:26you the audience only sees their image on the tv i'm in despair i'm really in despair and i don't
26:34understand why i'm still alive i should have killed myself long ago so the tvs became first a close
26:41up a way of having a close-up in in the theater as in our production of three sisters which
26:47we call
26:47brace up and then the tvs became a mirror then the tvs became a window then the tvs became a
26:56portal to
26:57another dimension as in symphony of rats you arrived
27:09what i brought from the experience of working in the wooster group was a certain physicality the
27:15spirit of working in collaboration with all aspects of production not delegating anything be responsible
27:22for everything it was interesting with the wooster group as we started to work with some simple
27:28technology the actors started doing tasks of technicians and the technicians did tasks of actors it was mixed
27:45so i suppose
27:53she'd have an idea of a text we'd play around with the text and we'd also invent you know certain
28:01disciplines the way you know we use badminton in our adaptation of fadra for example
28:12somehow in doing the task they're in the moment more than if they're remembering their lines
28:19and thinking who they have to talk to so it frees their body to be able to do something else
28:25and the same thing with the speaking uh they learn it as a as a vocal as a singing like
28:32it's a score
28:34and the rug under my feet said walk on your hands please why rug i asked because i can't fly
28:42was the
28:42answer but i turned that limitation into an even more powerful imagination but it's not a psychological
28:54thing that comes that's the audience's job is to give the psychology to what they're looking at
29:05think i want to let's put something on me think i'm gonna let it get away with that stuff you
29:09don't
29:10know me no one ain't never putting up no wrong me ain't got no way with it not that kind
29:13of stuff
29:14no guy and no school nita uh we take something that was very active and we could um really would
29:20put
29:20us in movement that was important who the hell is she ain't she the same as me harry apop i'll
29:28show
29:28her i'm better in her she only knew it i belong and she don't i move but she's dead 25
29:33knots an hour
29:34that's me that carries her and i make that she's only baggage sure people responded to casting me as a
29:40bad guy because just purely because of my face because of generally my physiognomy my demeanor i think
29:48when people can't uh don't feel like you're you're an ordinary joe they're worried that people won't
29:56be able to uh identify with you so they tend to put you in uh uh character roles uh and
30:06uh the natural
30:07thing was for me to play heavies but certainly uh platoon has uh really turned that around quite a bit
30:24that's why this ain't your show you ain't a firing squad you piece of
30:29good morning primosa a dormitio qua luce and cat dappertutto ieri sera
30:39che cos'è
30:46cosa significa
30:48no insomma è bello è una poesia credo vuole che l'accompagnio a casa forse finalmente ce la facciamo
31:00devo solo finire con quei signori è in questione di minuti sono collezionisti
31:08some actors that come from theater get very annoyed by the technical responsibilities of
31:13being in movies i love them because they create a structure for me and i can live within that structure
31:20and that's what uh gives me uh the boundaries the walls to bounce against
31:25it's a beautiful thing so an appreciation for for technology um and see it not as dehumanizing but
31:34actually helping you perform um and uh physicality physicality once again task oriented approach to
31:43acting action oriented approach to acting being really at the heart of making things
31:51the wooster group what they do is they also you know undermine reality all the time they take
31:58things that are references cultural references they put it on stage but they also show you how
32:02it's a form and how it's brechtian in the sense that we shouldn't really believe anything the second
32:08you believe something and kind of fall into expecting it you kind of fall asleep a little bit
32:13so the second you start falling into that expectation of where it's supposed to go they subvert it
32:18and then you're thinking again what what's going on just relax for a moment you are free of the carbonite
32:28you'll have hibernation sickness i can't see your eyesight will return in time where am i
32:42who are you someone who loves you but you need an audience you need an audience who wants that
32:54and that's the tricky thing there there's this quote that i i live with from the german film director
33:01alexander kluja and it is you know my job is 50 percent of the process and the audience has to
33:08fill in the other 50 percent
33:33and richard foreman i used to see shows all the time
33:42it's obvious that i belong to the avant-garde in the meaning that it is commonly used to this word
33:47but at the same time i don't think that my job can only be connected to the avant-garde teatral
33:53what i remember about richard was going to the place in his living room in his loft and sitting there
34:01and seeing
34:01the road in potato land the road in potato land the feeling that the audience and the play were mixed
34:17like with squat theater also from hungary you were you were visiting in their living room the play was going
34:24around all around you you know
34:26ci sono lavori che possono essere più o meno validi ma mi sembra che la preoccupazione degli altri autori e
34:32registi è quella di sedurre lo spettatore di metterlo a suo agio di dargli qualcosa
34:37che possa rafforzare tutte le sue abitudini tutte le sue vecchie aspettative e gratificazioni invece di colpirlo sul volto e
34:43di svegliarlo io desidero che mi si colpisca sul volto e mi si svegli
34:47then eventually foreman would split the stage with a with a string all the way to lincoln center
34:54where they did the three penny opera with raul julio a fantastic fantastic production he really was able
35:02to move from the living room to the grand stage at lincoln center and still keep the strings there
35:11so that you would look at it architecturally at the at the at the film he was one of my
35:17uh favorite
35:18theater experiences and i worked with him twice sometime in the year before he died he called me
35:24up and said listen if you're ever in new york i'd love you to drop by the loft i want
35:28to record something
35:29and i said okay because i i loved his work and i was happy to do anything for him and
35:35i went to his loft he
35:36was in a wheelchair but he was still very sharp physically he had some um challenges but uh
35:44mentally he was very sharp and he brought out these cards
35:51we divided the cards and we alternated reading them and we recorded that and we videotaped that
35:59what it was for we didn't know but it was an experiment so when he died i thought
36:05not only am i do i want to present the wooster group's production of symphony of rats which is
36:11a text that he wrote but also i wanted to participate in some way in the biennale and i
36:19thought this would be a wonderful opportunity to do basically what i did with him with an actress
36:27mental escape phones everywhere relay partner go to war sleep wins but life breathes in and out
36:37bets are off never be first love me the sentence has been passed no better luck than now we found
36:47uh
36:48simoneta solda and uh we did a little rehearsal i designed the space there was no real direction
36:56because the rules of the game were clear we selected some music we selected some lights
37:03there's a ring of broken glass that kind of keeps us at this table and that was an homage to
37:10him too
37:11because he never liked anything casual or natural in the performing he always liked it heightened he
37:18always liked it a little with attention with a a kind of drama to it and he used to say
37:27perform as if there's broken glass on the stage every step you know you had to be careful you didn't
37:33walk around you know loose like that everything was very held and very suspended so that was a little
37:43that was a little uh salute to him last is lucky next time maybe backwards is better hands in the
37:52air
37:52what i liked about foreman was it was a theater where i could watch i could be there and i
37:58didn't
37:58understand a thing i kept on asking myself questions as i'd uh as i'd watch his theater and also it's
38:09quite titillating because he had very visually interesting sets the props were beautiful sometimes
38:14he had very attractive uh performers that you would get sucked into who they are and be curious about them
38:26as far as the language it was very fragmented it was very philosophical it was a head-scratcher
38:33one of the beautiful things about theater is that moment where you say what the hell is this
38:40mai troppo tardi sali su per sederti giù castelare non andartene mai sette profondi domattina dal nulla la
38:50notte per il giorno altezza mezza bellezza ama solo kate niente acqua attorno all'isola cuore a cuore
38:59la moneta è il potere although there were some transgressive elements not in in a shocking way but
39:06in a very mysterious way a way that he could engage with a certain kind of fragmentation and a kind
39:12of
39:12thinking that was unique to him he really put you on a state of wonder a state of curiosity a
39:20state of
39:20imagination even if there was no strong narrative but really you stop asking yourself what the hell
39:28is this and that's and and that's the best part of theater
39:37the 70s as i said when i got to new york there was from me and maybe it's because i'm
39:43a 22 year old
39:44kid but there was an explosion of things and uh it was crazy that uh filmmakers were doing theater
39:53theater people were doing dance musicians were doing dance painters were doing dance you know it was all
40:00all mixed up people that came from that era really um you don't get rid of that experience it's in
40:09your
40:11and i think there was a lot of uh introduction of uh technology into theater and now that language
40:22is still there but sometimes people don't know where it came from and they use it superficially
40:27so it's always good to know where it came from so you use it well or you're able to discard
40:34it and move
40:35on from that i believe in in mentorship but i also believe in
40:48the very um transient legacy of theater when i think about working and i think about
40:55who i am in relationship to work um i don't know anything the only thing i know is that every
41:06time
41:06i start something it it feels like
41:14the first time so
41:27william does represent a very iconic important line between the physical and the the experiential of
41:38what the audience is able to to to take from him for me to have someone who has expertly presented
41:46that
41:46and he doesn't think about it that way i mean he's really what he says he is action-based he's
41:51in
41:51the moment so he's not putting this you know legacy out there and saying this is my legacy it just
41:56happens
42:01i'm not saying there was a better time i'm not saying that you know this is not a good time
42:06it's i i don't have that sense of i don't have that kind of perspective
42:15but thank god for that period because i've seen in my own life these very humble amateur groups that
42:23were working outside of professional and institutional arenas were doing it for the
42:30love of it and they were doing it personally and with great commitment and great um challenge and they
42:37invented things and they passed it on and then that got absorbed by the institutional and the
42:43commercial world which is much stronger uh particularly in theater in in europe for example
42:50and some of that language was advanced some of it was corrupted you can feel it you see a piece
42:56and you know when that new theater language is used well or it's used superficially
43:08that's like a fucking sermon guys
43:28so
43:33so
43:37so
43:38so
43:39so
43:46Grazie.
44:14Grazie.
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