NAR CEO Nykia Wright on building transparency and trust

HousingWire

On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Nykia Wright, CEO of the National Association of Realtors, about how she is building accountability and transparency for the association’s nearly 1.5 million members.   Related to this episode:   Nykia Wright outlines NAR transparency and antitrust reset  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/nar-wright-transparency-antitrust/  HousingWire | YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q  More info about HousingWire  https://lnk.bio/housingwire   To learn more about Total Expert visit totalexpert.com   The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate.

Transcript

00:09Welcome, everyone. My guest today is Nakia Wright. She's the CEO of the National Association

00:14of Realtors to talk about so many of the changes that are going on within the real estate industry

00:19and what the association is doing to address that. Nakia, welcome to the podcast. Thank you

00:24so much for having me. I am so glad you're here. Of course, we're here in person at the gathering

00:30where you're going to be taking the stage as well. So we can't wait to hear from you, but

00:33really excited to get to talk to you about some of these topics today. And my first question is,

00:39what do you see as the biggest challenge for realtors right now?

00:43I think realtors have a multifaceted challenge, if you don't mind. It's more than one thing. It is

00:49understanding how the impact of interest rates is going to affect their client base. It's

00:54understanding how the impact of inflation is going to affect their client base. Inventory,

00:59but also making sure that we have the strongest advocacy team possible to continue to help manage

01:04those conversations in Washington, D.C. and throughout the country in order to help them

01:08get to their next transaction successfully. So a very challenging time, but also people are,

01:14you know, taking advantage of that. Lots of people seeing opportunity. It's not that it's a bad housing

01:18market. There are just affordability challenges and just, you know, again, the what's happening with

01:23rates always. When you look at what NARS should be doing to help right now, what do you see as

01:31your

01:31biggest priority? So we've committed to help people get to their next transaction. And I know that that

01:36is a simple question, but because of the multifaceted issues that we are continuing to

01:40manage across the country, it's not necessarily one thing, but it's that bucket of items that we have

01:46to continue to manage to help them get to their next transaction. They are looking for people who,

01:50at the association, who can help make and manage and help people understand the difference between a

01:55realtor and an agent. That's our primary concern. Our other concern is making sure that at the local,

02:00state, and national level that we are all sort of singing from the same hymnal to help understand what

02:05challenges are starting in one area of the United States and going all the way to another side of the

02:11United States, metastasizing across state lines. If we look at the consolidation around the industry,

02:16if we look at the moves that people are making across state lines, very rarely now are we coming

02:21across companies and businesses that are only interested in one market. It is how is the nation

02:26moving together and where are those sort of pockets of separation that we have to manage to help them get

02:32to their next transaction. But at the National Association of Realtors, our primary responsibility

02:37is to use the authoritative assets that we have, whether that's advocacy, whether that's research,

02:42whether that's our event space and convening, whether that's education, whether that's innovation and

02:48technology in the market, all of those things to bring to bear, to be in front of people, understand

02:53where we are, sort of helping understand leading indicators, lagging indicators to help them continue

02:58to get to that next subsequent transaction. Let's talk about that agent versus realtor distinction.

03:05Obviously, in the last couple of years, there's been so many questions about what does someone in real

03:10estate professionals, a real estate professional, we'll call them, what do they do, right? After the

03:13commission lawsuits, there was lots of like, oh, you know, I mean, I sat through part of that trial

03:17and what we heard was like, well, I can just look up stuff. Why do I need this agent? What's

03:21the value?

03:22And really understanding that real estate professionals have to bring, have to articulate

03:27their value in what they're doing, specifically between just an agent and a realtor. What do you think

03:33that value proposition is? Absolutely. So the first thing that I have to do is continue to stress that

03:37because I am the CEO of the National Association of Realtors, the seatbelts that I'm responsible for

03:42fastening are those of the realtors. And so when we look at the distinction between the realtor and

03:47an agent, it is through that lens. So that is the paying body that helps us and we are there

03:51to

03:52make sure that we manage that. One of the things that we have to manage is the trademark, whether that

03:58is talking about someone who is an agent who doesn't understand the difference between a realtor and an

04:02agent or whether that's a client. The difference between a realtor and an agent as we define it

04:07is one primarily anchored in what we call that code of ethics. That is something that is non-negotiable.

04:12It is something that every single person that becomes part of the realtor family is responsible

04:17for. It's almost like the Hippocratic oath, if you will, if you are comparing that to the medical

04:21field. It is our implicit and explicit oath to every single client, customer in the industry that

04:27we are going to show up with integrity. We are going to give them all of the information that we

04:31have.

04:32We're not going to hide any information and that we are going to go where they lead us.

04:36And so as it relates to showing inventory, as it relates to giving them as much information about

04:41the property as possible, I know there are conversations around the country about what

04:44is negative insights and what is positive insights. Customers look at that as insights and data to help

04:50inform the transaction. And so at the National Association of Realtors, we are responsible for

04:54doing that. As it relates to the forms across the country, the consistency with which people show up to

05:00the transaction, we are responsible for that. People can, as it relates to the consumer ad campaign

05:05that we have put out, we are continuing to not only help realtors and agents know the difference,

05:10but we do have that responsibility to help customers know the difference. Our new consumer ad campaign

05:16that was launched in late February is doing just that. So it is being placed in strategic spots around

05:23the country. The whole purpose is to say, this is much more than opening doors. This is much more

05:28than just showing you a home. This is the pre-work. This is the mid-work. This is the post

05:34-work,

05:34everything in between to make sure that when you are thinking about the most expensive transaction

05:39in the average person's lifetime, unless you are buying a business, the most expensive transaction,

05:45the place where you will make memories with your family, the place where you will make decisions

05:49about how your life is characterized, all of those things, the sort of qualitative and quantitative

05:55aspects of that entire transaction, we are there to help make sure that there's integrity in that

06:01transaction. The way that we show up with respect to advocacy is also important. I would argue that

06:07agents reap the benefits of what realtors have done. Agents do not have an advocacy engine. It is on the

06:15backs of the National Association of Realtors and the many realtors across the country that are helping

06:20understand where threats are in the industry, how that affects a transaction, how that affects a

06:26consumer, how that affects people's transparency. Only realtors are doing that in the market. And so

06:31I know people say, what's the difference between a realtor and an agent? Yes, there are sort of those

06:35micro aspects of that. But at the highest level, it is the realtors that are speaking to Washington.

06:42It is the realtors who are speaking to state legislators. It is the realtors who are in

06:48the offices of mayors across the country to help make sure that the ecosystem in this capitalistic

06:55society as it relates to real estate are upheld. So you stepped into leadership at NAR at a really

07:01critical point for the industry and for the organization, right? So, and you've said that you

07:07you want NAR to be more proactive rather than reactive. Where do you think you've already done

07:13that? What does that look like for NAR? So part of our strength could also be considered a weakness

07:19depending upon what lens you look through. So we're not going to be able to be proactive on

07:24everything in the same way that sometimes innovation beats and meets the expectations of consumers as it

07:32relates to Washington and how things. Sometimes the government has to catch up to that. The great

07:37thing about the real estate industry is you've got very smart executives from around the country

07:41who are creating white space, who are finding that blue ocean of opportunity as it relates to strategy,

07:48as it relates to elevating the industry, and continuing to innovate. So our promise is not to

07:53always be proactive. Our promise is to pick the spots where we understand that issues may cross the

08:00nation and help make sure that all of our realtors understand what's going on. So let's take artificial

08:06intelligence. That's a hot topic of today. Many people know that I'm taking the chief AI officer at

08:11the University of Chicago. And so the purpose is not to be a chief AI officer, but the purpose is

08:17to

08:17understand how I need to lead the conversation of artificial intelligence in the company. And so how did

08:23this manifest? I was in Pennsylvania with our head of industry relations, Jared Grasso.

08:29We were speaking to about 200 or 300 brokers in the audience. And when we opened up the opportunity

08:36for Q&A, one of the questions that people had was, how can I understand artificial intelligence better

08:42and what can I do within my company? If we take our value proposition of being the base camp of

08:48the

08:48industry, if we take my knowledge of understanding what people are needing from an AI perspective,

08:54marrying that to the understanding of our chief data officer, our head of IT and our head of legal,

09:00we are able to then put out an AI policy across the country that brokerages can use on their own.

09:07What does that do? One, that saves them monies that they do not have to invest in sort of base

09:13camp

09:13type ideas. I believe that their margins and money should be spent on what to do with the AI,

09:19as opposed to managing the X's and O's of the policy. So that's one way in which we are being

09:24proactive around the nation in that, yes, there's the conversation, but what are people actually doing

09:29in a tangible way to move this forward in their business?

09:33I think this is one of the powers of an association. You've already talked about this,

09:37the advocacy that just the sheer resources you can bring to bear because this is a giant trade

09:44organization, right? And if you're using that, then you can give people this baseline. Whereas

09:49I talk to a lot of trade org leaders and it's like, this is big, especially at this time,

09:55if you don't have that kind of AI backbone, if you don't have that sort of like infrastructure

10:01understanding, I think a lot of people out there are wondering, what does this mean for me? What does

10:06this mean for my business? What should I be investing in? How should I do this? And what's the end

10:11goal of

10:12that? Yes. So lots of things. So I know you didn't ask this, but I think the most important

10:16investment that people need to be making today is in having clean data. All of that data will inform

10:24your large language models. It will inform your data structure. It will inform the predictive analytics

10:29that you put on top of that. It will inform everything in the future. And so we talk about

10:36this in class, the companies that were spending tons of time, arduous time, that they were not getting

10:41credit for in the early 2000s, are now able to reap what are the insights of the data? How do

10:48I create

10:48that data infrastructure? How do I think about fine tuning my large language models? All of those things

10:54that the rest of the companies are working to catch up. And so what is our job as an association?

10:59To continue to make sure that the people that need those services can come to us, whether it's our

11:04perspective, whether it's our policy, whether it's putting them in touch with someone that could help

11:08them go forward. Our job is to help them continue to elevate in their business without the headaches

11:14of the minutiae of the foundational pieces. So I know that you spend an incredible amount

11:18of time traveling, talking to your members, talking to people who are on the ground doing this.

11:25What have you been hearing this year that maybe surprised you?

11:30I think this year what has surprised me most, and it's in a positive way, is that people are beginning

11:35to see the many changes that have started to take place and occur in the two and a half years

11:41since

11:42the settlement. And that directly coincides with when my tenure started. And so it's more about the

11:49post-settlement world and how our team has shown up to help people, help communicate. You can never

11:54communicate too much. I tell my team, no one is ever indicted for over communicating. When we are

11:59thinking about 1.4 million members, that doesn't include the CEOs of companies. That doesn't include

12:06the infrastructure. That doesn't include people that are full-time employees at the companies. And

12:10it certainly doesn't include the congressmen and women who are helping us sort of move all of this

12:15forward. Trying to communicate to people where they are is one of the hardest things to achieve,

12:20but it is something that we have to continue to chip away at. And so I am proud to hear

12:25that people are

12:26beginning to understand what that communication means. No two people are alike. The way that they are

12:32communicated to is different. The time of day that they consume information, right? Are they on the road

12:38in a podcast listening to in their car? Is this after hours after they've gone to work that day, made

12:44some

12:45real estate transactions, prepared dinner for their family, and now they have their quiet time? Or is this in the

12:50morning managing that ecosystem of when people need their information? What social media platforms

12:55they consume that on? How quickly they need the information? Do they need a quick hit? Or do they

13:00need sort of a longer piece of information? But we are continuing to chip away at that and meet people

13:05where they are. So the communication, I think, is more important. You know, the association, one of the

13:10things that you've talked about is how you're really, you've been engineering a turnaround of this

13:16association. And you've called it, you know, urgent and also really important. How do you feel like

13:20that that's going? How do you how do you measure success there? I feel that it is going well. But

13:27we

13:27have a lot of work to do. And so the only reason that I say well is because I know

13:31how much ground we

13:32have covered. That is in no way indicative of the ground that we have to continue to cover. So I

13:39can be

13:39most proud, but I can also be concerned about continuing that pace or understanding where to

13:44where to accelerate in the future. I have the benefit of having turned around the Chicago Sun

13:50Times. So this is not my first rodeo. What is different here, and I think most important, is

13:56always understanding who is dictating the pace of the turnaround. So when I was at the Chicago Sun

14:02Times, it was the financial statements that were dictating the pace, right? Are we going to run out

14:07of money before we turn this thing around? When we look at the National Association of Realtors,

14:12it's a completely different animal because you've got CEOs of companies that are weighing in on the

14:18pace of change. You've got realtors weighing in on the pace of change. You've got MLSs weighing in on

14:23the pace of change. You've got consumers weighing in on the pace of change of whether or not they can

14:28get

14:28into their dream home or even commercial property in a timely enough fashion. And certainly,

14:35you have to manage that with the X's and O's of, are you running your staff too hard before you

14:42are

14:42able to see the future? So the dictator of the pace of change is what makes it difficult. But I'm

14:50very

14:50proud of the ground we've covered. When you look at it, what do you hope, like even just by the

14:55end

14:55of 2026, you're like, here's measurable things that are different? I would like to see, regardless of

15:03what party is dominant or not in November or today, that there is much more conversation and progress

15:10as it relates to the affordability issue. I would like to see more certainty in the Fed chair spot and

15:19have a better understanding through our advocacy of where interest rates are going to go and how we're

15:24going to influence that as we move forward. We will have launched a new learning management system

15:29where we are redefining education and really creating what I call a center of excellence for

15:35education in the industry. Whether it relates to communication and convening, we will have had

15:42two conferences by then with a completely different look and feel, ensuring that we are bringing more

15:47people to the party. As it relates to the number of CEOs around the country that we have yet to

15:53touch,

15:54I would say if we have touched about 15 states thus far this year, going and speaking to thousands of

16:01brokers, continuing to meet people at conferences like this, that that number continues to shoot through

16:07the roof, making sure that we are getting those proper conversations and those ideas in to understand how

16:14we need to reallocate capital in a budget constrained world. I would like to see more progress and be able

16:21to report on more progress as it relates to redefining and restructuring our governance structure.

16:29That is a source of significant concern around the industry and certainly have an approved budget for

16:352027 understanding the liabilities that we have in a sort of budget constrained world, making space for

16:44more creativity and innovation. I would also like to see with respect to research, and all of this is

16:50possible because I know it's in the plan and I know we're moving towards it. I would also like to

16:55see

16:55more in the research realm where people are able to understand more at the layman level what the

17:01housing economics mean for planning for the future. It's not just how do I get to my next

17:07transaction, but if I wanted to forecast and move up in sort of the business realm of moving from more

17:14of a

17:14single shingle to even thinking about a company or joining a company, how do I

17:18understand the X's and O's of that in a more intelligent way to make more intelligent

17:23decisions? So all of those things are things that we are working on that I know that we can commit

17:27to

17:28impacting. So one of the issues that is just evolving really quickly and is also confusing is what, you know,

17:35the role of the

17:36MLS right now, MLSs, and how do you see what the MLSs should be doing versus like things are changing,

17:45right?

17:45People want to do private listings. People want to, there's so much conversation and action around that. How do you

17:51see that?

17:51So that's interesting and I appreciate the way that you framed that question because I have to amend it slightly.

17:56So we can't dictate what the MLSs do. We can provide convening spaces where people can communicate

18:05ideas and challenges in a sort of antitrust mandated sort of way. What is so interesting and

18:13what people forget about associations is when you convene so many people with so many different

18:18business models, it is ripe for antitrust scrutiny. And so you really have to toe the line between

18:25being a convener, um, in a space of ideas, uh, in a legal way, but also moving people forward.

18:33Now that said, we have launched the MLS advisory committee. I was on that call on 413. So just a

18:40few short days ago and where people are sort of separate is how their business model will look

18:47going forward. Where people are together is much more in that foundational. How are we going to present

18:52the data? What do we need to do in a more uniform way in order for a realtor in this

18:58particular

18:59industry or this particular, um, state to understand the differences here? There, I think there has to

19:05be more sort of technological, uh, innovation that they agree with that is consistent with people who

19:11are operating across state lines. And so they are working on those ideas, sending those through committee

19:16and we'll see what types of, um, evidence comes out in, in June. Uh, but they have the authority,

19:23they have the strategic chops to be able to make those decisions based upon their conversations

19:29in their markets on how they, they should show up. And when you say they, they're, are you talking

19:34to MLSers or brokers? MLS executives. Okay. Yes. So from your perspective, um, what is NAR's role

19:40in shaping that as you guys are doing right now with the MLSs? Shaping it in terms of understanding

19:46what are the common thematic consideration pain points across the industry, shaping it in terms of

19:52what we are hearing from brokerages across the country and realtors across the country that are

19:57pain points that we must bring into the conversation in order to help them inform how their future business

20:04model is, is moving forward. But this is something of influence and informing and persuading,

20:09but it's not the, it's not the actual doing. So it really is rich in the conversations that we're

20:15having across the ecosystem to help inform how they move forward. It's a pain point, for example,

20:19and it's not a secret that many people are saying, why am I paying for this MLS? And why am

20:23I paying

20:23for that MLS? Right? So real decisions need to be made. We cannot make those decisions on people's

20:29behalf, but real decisions need to be made as it relates to how are you hindering or helping the

20:34economics of the people who are buying into this model? How are you hindering or helping the way

20:39that people are able to communicate to consumers information that is publicly available in order

20:44to help them inform and make that best decision? So you've, you've talked a lot about, you guys are

20:49on a path to do a lot of different things. You've already done some of that. How do you, how

20:53do you

20:54ensure transparency on the association part so that people know what's going on?

20:58So I think we've done a good job in transparency. And I do think that people are conflating

21:04transparency with their version of the future. You can be transparent and disagree with what I'm

21:13being transparent on. And right now we have, if people are not necessarily liking something that

21:19we're doing, they're saying that we're not being transparent. But to answer your question faithfully

21:24and dutifully, it was not the idea of the leadership team, not saying that they were asleep at the wheel,

21:30but we were so convinced that we needed to show our leadership team and show the ecosystem that we

21:36were, and not just about transparency in word form, but in action form, we are the ones that committed.

21:41It's me and my team that committed to having quarterly meetings with the executive team. It

21:46is me and my team that committed to putting information out on the websites, putting it out

21:50on social to say, this is what we said that we were going to do in the strategic plan. This

21:55is the

21:55progress that we are making on the strategic plan. This is what we are promising to do in the future.

21:59What does that do? One, it gives everyone in the business an opportunity to understand what we

22:04are committing to do. Two, it helps staff, which is very important because they're the doers.

22:09It helps them understand and see themselves in the plan. If you're doing something that is outside of

22:14this plan, then we might have a problem because this is the direction that we're going. Three,

22:18it helps whether you are an executive of an MLS, a brokerage, anything else in the country to say,

22:24okay, this is what they've committed to. You know what I don't see? I don't see this thing over here.

22:28So it helps make that conversation more rich. I didn't see this. Where is this in the plan? Can

22:33you put this in the plan? Can you add this to the prioritized list? So it lets the entire ecosystem

22:39understand where we are, what we've committed to do, and how we're moving forward.

22:42The other piece that's important to remember is who helped author and co-author the strategic plan.

22:48This wasn't a sort of corporate NAR idea. This was born of conversations with over 150,000 of our

22:56members, and then certainly CEOs of companies that represented 700,000 of our members. By the time

23:02you do the math, that's over half of our members, right? And so the average company cannot say that

23:07we have spoken to or represented over half of the voices in our industry or our constituent group to

23:14help inform this thing. And so we have to be careful about saying too much about what it isn't,

23:19because we are beholden to the members that pay us. But we have to also be careful and balance

23:24that understanding of what it is as it relates to how we're going to continue to move forward to

23:29find those gaps. So in the past, and even now in many ways, the first person to get to the

23:36consumer

23:36is the realtor. That is the connection point. When you're looking for a house, you might be

23:44scrolling, whatever, looking, but that's the first thing. Do you see that changing? Who gets to the

23:48consumer first as we see a lot of companies merging, putting together these long, you know,

23:55sort of like start to finish of the transaction and beyond? Do you think that that stays with the

24:01realtor? So my fiduciary duty is to the realtor, ensuring that the realtor is at the center of the

24:08transaction. But there are so many benefits of that particular sort of responsibility. It's not just

24:16here's a human that is in the middle of the transaction. Even if you were to sort of

24:20juxtapose that with artificial intelligence, there's still a human in the loop in many aspects.

24:24What can realtors do that artificial intelligence cannot? I'll juxtapose that with artificial

24:29intelligence, because I think it's sort of rather relevant. Artificial intelligence today cannot provide

24:35context. It may be able to do that in 10 years. But in today, in today's world, it can't provide

24:40context. It can provide an answer, an answer based upon scraping all of this external information

24:46that may or may not be filled with integrity. The realtor provides context. The realtor provides

24:53that local information. The realtor provides that understanding and can take you into those homes that

24:59and show you things that pictures can't show you. They can introduce you to people in the mortgage

25:04space, in the legal space that a simple lead cannot do. Most people, when they are thinking about

25:10the emotion of this transaction, are looking for people that they relate to. It is that relational

25:16element that is very, very important. And so you could get a lead here and there, but you may not

25:21gel

25:21or jive with whatever that recommendation is. And so having them at the center of the transaction to

25:26provide context, to run around and do the things that the average person cannot see or do. There are so

25:32many elements in this regulated transaction that are unseen that we absolutely take for granted,

25:38and outsourcing that to these real professionals, I think is really what makes the ecosystem continue

25:46to work with integrity. Because if it didn't work with integrity, then realtors, this would not be a

25:51108-year-old organization, correct? Right? We would not be able to continue to build business models

25:57on the foundational principles that sort of come from the National Association of Realtors.

26:02I know you are listening and talking to brokers, realtors all over the country, but also as you're

26:09doing that and listening, what do you wish, what do you think they don't know that you wish they knew?

26:17I wish that they knew the breadth and depth of the entire association. Now that said, we still have a

26:25long way to do that. By the time we start itemizing all of the benefits of the association,

26:30and then you juxtapose that with someone paying $201, it is easily one of the highest return

26:40investments in the nation. If you think about anything that you can pay for for $201,

26:46does that get you a voice in Washington, D.C. on both sides of the aisle? Does that get you

26:52research

26:53to understand the housing industry in ways that some government officials still do not understand?

26:59Yes, they collect the data, but we mine it. Does that help you understand a code of ethics and help

27:05make sure that the ecosystem continues to move forward? People talk about our governance, and I'm

27:10going to agree there are areas, absolutely, that need to be scrutinized and right-sized. But how does

27:16our advocacy engine know what to talk to D.C. about? It is based upon the conversations and the

27:22understanding that realtors are having in their day-to-day environments that are informing that

27:28committee that deliberates on those things, that packages that up and gives that to the advocacy

27:35engine to go and speak in Washington on our behalf? For $201 to actually have a say in the industry

27:42that I work in, very few people can do that. We are sort of recipients of our industry and the

27:48advocacy efforts that people are doing, but here you actually have a say in how that's done.

27:53How does that get you, in many cases, free education to help you get to your next transaction?

27:58Hearing things out of HUD, out of the Mortgage Bankers Association, out of the entire ecosystem

28:04to help inform very quickly how you move forward because of the relationships that we have in D.C.

28:10So there are some people that even go so far as to say, I got a benefit of a $2

28:17,600 off of several

28:19appliances in my home because of my benefits with the National Association of Realtors. So whether

28:26we're talking literally about a tangible washing machine, dryer, and refrigerator, or dictating the

28:33future of how your industry moves for $201, it is a significant return on investment. And most people do

28:40not understand the breadth and depth of what they get for those dollars.

28:43Nikki, it has been incredible to talk to you. Thank you for being on. Really appreciate it.

28:47Thank you for the opportunity.

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