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The Last Word with Lawrence ODonnell - Season 13 - Episode 40
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00:00No person is above the law, even presidents, especially presidents.
00:05With those words, 79-year-old President Bill Clinton faced the Republican-controlled House Oversight Committee,
00:12testifying for more than six hours today as part of the committee's investigation into Jeffrey Epstein.
00:18No person is above the law, even presidents, especially presidents.
00:23That's a line another 79-year-old president doesn't want to hear,
00:28which is why he said this today.
00:32Are you sure you heard at all about President Bill Clinton being deposed
00:36and that that sets precedence in you and your family?
00:39I don't like seeing him deposed, but, you know, they certainly went after me a lot more than that.
00:47I don't like seeing him. I like him, and I don't like seeing him deposed.
00:54Today, President Clinton became the first sitting or former president
00:58to testify before Congress since President Gerald Ford testified before the Senate,
01:02a Senate subcommittee, 43 years ago.
01:06Ahead of his testimony, President Clinton released his entire opening statement,
01:10saying, in part, he was appearing before the committee because, quote,
01:14The girls and women whose lives Jeffrey Epstein destroyed deserve not only justice, but healing.
01:21They've been waiting too long for both.
01:24Though my brief acquaintance with Epstein ended years before his crimes came to light,
01:29and though I never witnessed during our limited interactions any indication of what was truly going on,
01:35I am here to offer what little I know so that it might prevent anything like this from ever happening
01:42again.
01:43President Clinton's testimony comes one day after his wife, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton,
01:50testified before the same committee.
01:52President Clinton said, quote,
02:16President Clinton, on the other hand, was photographed with Jeffrey Epstein
02:20and flew on Epstein's private plane on multiple occasions,
02:24before 2008, when Jeffrey Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting sex with minors.
02:31President Clinton went on to say, quote,
02:34First, I had no idea of the crimes Epstein was committing.
02:37No matter how many photos you show me,
02:40I have two things that, at the end of the day,
02:42matter more than your interpretation of those 20-year-old photos.
02:47I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.
02:50I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.
02:54I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.
02:58As someone who grew up in a home with domestic abuse,
03:01not only would I not have flown on his plane,
03:04if I had any inkling of what he was doing,
03:07I would have turned him in myself and led the call for justice for his crimes,
03:12not sweetheart deals.
03:13But even with 20-20 hindsight, I saw nothing that ever gave me pause.
03:19We are only here because he hid it from everyone so well for so long.
03:26Ahead of today's deposition, the top Democrat on the committee,
03:29Congressman Robert Garcia, said this.
03:33We have real questions that deserve serious answers from former President Clinton,
03:38and we have said from day one that Democrats want to talk to anyone,
03:43whether they are a Republican or a Democrat,
03:46no matter how powerful they are, whatever position that they've been in.
03:49If anyone has information about Jeffrey Epstein,
03:53and certainly the horror that he inflicted on so many women and children,
03:57we want to hear from them.
03:59Republicans have now set a new precedent,
04:01which is to bring in presidents and former presidents to testify.
04:06So we're once again going to make that call that we did yesterday.
04:10We are now asking and demanding that President Trump
04:14officially come in and testify in front of the oversight committee.
04:19He appears in the Epstein files next to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell,
04:24almost more than anybody else.
04:28Trump has denied any wrongdoing associated with Jeffrey Epstein.
04:32During a break in the deposition, the chair of the oversight committee,
04:35Congressman James Comer, said this.
04:39A ranking member, Garcia, asked President Clinton,
04:43quote, should President Trump be called to answer questions from this committee?
04:49And President Clinton said, that's for you to decide.
04:52And the president went on to say that the president, Trump,
04:58has never said anything to me to make me think he was involved.
05:04That claim was then refuted by the person who asked the question, Congressman Garcia.
05:11President Clinton did bring up some additional information about some discussions with President Trump.
05:17I think that the way Chairman Comer described it, I don't think is a complete accurate description of what actually
05:22was said.
05:23So let's release the full transcript so you can get all get a full record of what actually was said,
05:27which brings up some very important new questions about comments that President Trump has actually said in the past.
05:36Democratic Congressman Maxwell Frost said this in response to Chair Comer's claim,
05:41quote, I'm happy to clarify.
05:43President Clinton brought up a conversation he had with Trump in NYC regarding Epstein.
05:48President Clinton said that Trump told him that he had a falling out with Epstein due to a land dispute.
05:54This directly refutes Trump's claims about why he fell out with Epstein.
06:00Last night, the Justice Department restored a photo that was removed from their website.
06:05The photo appears to show Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and Jeffrey Epstein on Epstein's Island.
06:12MS Now's Lisa Rubin reports, quote,
06:15we cannot say definitively when it was taken nor who else is depicted.
06:19But other men in the photo appear to include Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and his friend Michael Lerman,
06:26who, according to correspondents from the publicly released Epstein files,
06:30was vacationing with Lutnick and his family when they all visited Epstein for lunch on his island in December 2012.
06:38In particular, a photo of Mr. Lerman that accompanies his corporate biography resembles the man in the white shirt
06:45depicted in the Epstein photo at far right.
06:49Howard Lutnick has denied any wrongdoing associated with Jeffrey Epstein.
06:53MS Now has reached out to Mr. Lerman to ask if he recognizes himself or anyone else in the photo.
07:00We have not yet received a response.
07:02In a statement to MS Now, the Justice Department said, quote,
07:06this image was part of a batch of files that were flagged for nudity.
07:11The batch of thousands of images was pulled for review and is being uploaded with necessary redactions on a rolling
07:17basis.
07:18No files are being deleted.
07:21Our next guest, Congressman Roe Khanna, said today that Democrats have enough votes to subpoena Howard Lutnick.
07:28Congressman Khanna also said this about President Clinton's deposition today.
07:34He set the tone, in my view, for the precedent that the president, President Trump, needs to now come and
07:41answer these questions.
07:43That Howard Lutnick needs to answer these questions.
07:46That other people, part of the Epstein class who have been in these files, need to come before this committee
07:51and ask these questions.
07:53And that that's the only way we're going to have accountability and healing.
07:58In October, before the release of the Epstein files, Howard Lutnick said that he cut off all contact with Jeffrey
08:05Epstein in 2005.
08:07So I was never in the room with him socially, for business or even philanthropy.
08:15If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross.
08:22That was a lie.
08:24And we know it was a lie because according to the Justice Department's release of the Epstein files,
08:30Howard Lutnick and Jeffrey Epstein maintained contact for years after Howard Lutnick claims he thought Epstein was, quote, gross.
08:39Earlier this month, Howard Lutnick testified that he traveled to Epstein's island in 2012.
08:48Did you, in fact, make the visit to Jeffrey Epstein's private island?
08:53I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation.
08:59My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies.
09:05I had another couple with they were there as well with their children.
09:10And we had lunch on the island.
09:13That is true for an hour.
09:15And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife.
09:20You realize that, you know, this this visit took place after he'd been convicted.
09:27Right.
09:27I mean, you made a very big point of saying that you sensed that this was a bad person in
09:332005.
09:34And then, of course, in 2008, he was convicted of soliciting prostitution of a minor.
09:44And and yet you went and had this trip and other interactions.
09:49Today, Donald Trump said that Howard Lutnick would comply with a congressional subpoena.
10:09Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Roe Khanna of California.
10:14He is a member of the House Oversight Committee.
10:17Congressman Khanna, thank you very much for coming on the show and being here in person on set.
10:22So we played that clip of you saying that you got the votes to have Howard Lutnick get a subpoena.
10:30What makes you so what what makes Donald Trump so confident that Howard Lutnick is, quote, very innocent?
10:37Well, Trump just says whatever he says.
10:39I mean, the reality is that you have Nancy Mace, not a Democrat, a Republican, calling for subpoenaing Howard Lutnick.
10:47And that's why I know we're going to get the votes.
10:49I mean, the motion can come from a Republican and Howard Lutnick lied.
10:54I mean, he lied about his association with Epstein.
10:58He's lied about his alleged business dealings with Epstein.
11:01Here he is, the ambassador, our ambassador for business to the world.
11:06And there's no accountability.
11:08Meanwhile, you have the former prince being prosecuted in Britain.
11:11You have the former prime minister in Norway being prosecuted, people being prosecuted in France.
11:16We need to have accountability here. And it starts with Howard Lutnick.
11:19Anyone else you want to subpoena?
11:22I mean, everyone's thinking, well, hey, if you can subpoena President Clinton and you can subpoena the former first lady,
11:29Hillary Clinton, former secretary of state.
11:31Why can't you subpoena the current president and the current first lady who are all up in the Epstein files?
11:40Absolutely. Look, Hillary Clinton should never have been called.
11:43That was an outrage. And the way they treated her with disrespect was an outrage.
11:47She never met the man. I mean, it was totally a partisan and a witch hunt.
11:52But look, the person we need to call is Donald Trump.
11:55And he has to answer some very basic questions.
11:59There was an FBI interview of someone who accused him of alleged sexual abuse as a minor.
12:06One of the interviews is released. Three of the interviews are missing.
12:09Put aside whether you believe the allegations or not. Why is there a cover up of the release of these
12:16documents?
12:16You know, it's not just me saying that or Democrats. Senator John Kennedy.
12:20Right.
12:20One of his biggest defenders is saying, release the files.
12:24This is a huge cover up and it's hurting every Republican who's running for the House and the Senate and
12:30they know it.
12:30Well, Congressman, the Hill reports that Senate Republicans are putting pressure on the Justice Department to release all the Epstein
12:37files.
12:37You just mentioned Senator Kennedy being the person. And Senator Kennedy said, quote, this is not going to go away
12:43until there is full disclosure.
12:45And Senator Chuck Grassley said, quote, I think when we pass a law that says that all documents need to
12:49be put out, it seems to me all documents need to be put out.
12:54So what do you what do you what do you make of these pro-Trump senators making these calls?
13:00And what gives you any confidence that the Pam Bondi, Donald Trump Justice Department will comply?
13:09Well, first of all, they've read the law when that comes. But they're still not complying with the law, even
13:14though they've read the law.
13:14No, no, no. I'm saying the senators.
13:16Oh, the senators. OK, no, no.
13:18But Pam Bondi and Blanche have not complied with the law in any way.
13:22I mean, they've complied with half of it, maybe. But when Thomas Massey and I wrote the law, we explicitly
13:27put in there that you can't conceal something because of the embarrassment it may cause a political figure.
13:33We were explicit, actually, that they need to release these files.
13:37Now, here's why I believe they eventually will.
13:39When we started this, people didn't think we'd get anything.
13:42We've got about half the files now and people see how scandalous it is.
13:46The worst half, they've still hidden. But as we see more Republicans speaking out about this, as they see their
13:52own poll numbers, this is the one issue MAGA totally disapproves of Donald Trump on.
13:56There's going to be more pressure for them to release it.
13:59And then there's the judicial process.
14:01The Southern District of New York could force them to release it and comply with the law if a lawsuit
14:05is brought.
14:06In the time that we have left, I mean, today you were there for President Clinton's deposition.
14:13Just bring us inside the room. What was his demeanor? Was he cooperative? Was he cantankerous? Was he jovial?
14:21Not cantankerous at all. He was comfortable. He was responsive. He answered every single question.
14:29There was no Fifth Amendment. And it was civil. Most of the conversation was civil.
14:33I will say this. The Republicans approached this as politics. Democrats approached this as about the survivors.
14:40And there were two people, Melanie Stansbury, who's questioning, and Suhas Subramanian, who is particularly tough.
14:46People will see that when the transcripts come out. We did not pull punches.
14:50The point was to get the information out there and to do this in a way that honors survivors.
14:56And that's what happened today.
14:57And speaking of the survivors, you've centered the survivors in tackling this enormous political and legal challenge.
15:04From your discussions with them, do they feel like progress is being made?
15:11They feel vindicated that this is obviously not a hoax, that they've been saying some of the most powerful people
15:17in America and the world were involved, and that's happening.
15:20But they are outraged and upset that it's two American congresspeople who forced the release.
15:25And there's justice everywhere else in the world.
15:27Everywhere else, they're doing prosecutions.
15:29Everywhere else, people are falling.
15:31And here you've got people in the Epstein class sitting in the administration, no consequence.
15:36People who are still, some of them who raped these young girls, who are still out there, no investigations.
15:41And that's what's upsetting them.
15:43And I get texts every day from survivors saying, when are they actually going to start investigations and prosecutions?
15:49Congressman Ro Khanna, the House Oversight Committee from California, thank you very much for coming back to The Last Word.
15:55And coming up, turning Texas blue has been a Democratic dream for decades.
16:01But in this year's Senate race, record-breaking turnout in early voting and chaos on the Republican side could make
16:08this the Democrats' year.
16:10That's next.
16:15Democrats have been trying to flip a U.S. Senate seat in Texas for decades.
16:20And I know you all have heard this before, but polls show 2026 could finally be the year.
16:27The Texas Tribune reports more ballots have been cast in Texas through the first seven days of early voting for
16:33the 2026 midterms than any recent midterm or presidential election year, driven by high turnout in the Democratic primary.
16:42Democratic Party officials are particularly enthused by record-breaking turnout in places like Harris County, the state's most populous base
16:51of Democratic voters, and Tarrant County, the state's most populous purple county,
16:56where Democrat Taylor Remitt recently won a 14-point victory in the Senate District 9 special election runoff in a
17:04district that President Donald Trump won by 17 points in 2024.
17:09The Democratic primary is between two-term Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett and Texas State Representative James Tallarico.
17:18And today, Congresswoman Crockett received a major endorsement.
17:23The Texas Tribune reports former Vice President Kamala Harris has recorded a robocall for U.S. Representative Jasmine Crockett to
17:31turn out voters for the Dallas Congresswoman in Tuesday's hard-fought Democratic primary for U.S. Senate.
17:37Have a listen.
17:40Hi, this is Kamala Harris, and I'm calling to encourage you to please go vote for my friend Jasmine Crockett
17:47in the Democratic primary today, Friday, February 27th, or on Election Day, Tuesday, March 3rd.
17:56Now, on the Republican side, the races between incumbent Senator John Cornyn, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, and Congressman Wesley
18:05Hunt.
18:06Politico reports, with just days until Texas' primary, Republicans in Washington are growing more alarmed that their increasingly vicious intra
18:15-party contest could cost them a must-win Senate seat.
18:18If Cornyn loses the primary, Senate Republicans worry they could be forced to spend hundreds of millions of dollars that
18:27could otherwise go toward key battleground races in expensive states like North Carolina, Georgia, or Michigan, complicating their path toward
18:35holding Senate control.
18:37Donald Trump, who has not endorsed a Republican candidate, was in Corpus Christi, Texas today, and let's just say he
18:45made things a little awkward.
18:48We have a great attorney general, Ken Paxton.
18:52Where's Ken? Hi, Ken. Hi, Ken.
18:57And we have a great senator, John Cornyn. Hi, John.
19:02Thank you, John.
19:05Doing a little race together, you know that, right?
19:08A little bit of a race.
19:09It's going to be an interesting one, right?
19:13What happened to Wesley Hunt?
19:14Joining us now, Kendall Scudder, state chair of the Texas Democratic Party.
19:20Chairman Scudder, welcome to The Last Word.
19:22This couldn't be playing out any better for Texas Democrats right now, could it?
19:28You know, you hate to see it.
19:30It's a ton of fun to watch.
19:32But here's what's really important to remember.
19:35You know, turnout is really high for the first time in a very long time.
19:39Democrats are outvoting Republicans in Texas.
19:42We're hoping that that trend will hold.
19:44And it's not because of money or because we have a contentious primary.
19:49Republicans do, too.
19:50And they have outspent us by about four times.
19:53So what it's really about is enthusiasm of our grassroots on the ground here in Texas
19:57that are really excited about both of our candidates.
20:01And on the Republican side, there's not a lot to be excited about.
20:04You anticipated my next question.
20:06What do you attribute for that record Democratic early voting turnout?
20:12But that's early vote.
20:13Do you expect to see record turnout on the same day, record same day turnout?
20:20I certainly do.
20:22I think that that will happen.
20:24Now, there are some laws in Texas and counties like Dallas County and Williamson County that
20:28complicate election day voting, requiring voters to find their specific precinct location to vote.
20:33That's why we've been pushing people to vote early as best we can.
20:37But I do believe that this will continue.
20:39I think this trend could potentially hold.
20:41But, I mean, look at what the Republicans have on their side.
20:44No one in Texas's life is better off since John Corning got elected to office in the 90s.
20:49Ken Paxton, certified garbage person.
20:52And I can't even start to tell you what's up with Wesley Hunt because the guy didn't even show up
20:56to work.
20:56So, Republicans around the state aren't excited to show up for those folks.
21:00And regardless of who they nominate, they're probably going to nominate Paxton.
21:04But regardless of who they nominate, we're excited to run against them because we have two awesome candidates that are
21:09ready to throw punches and deliver this seat to meet this moment for the country.
21:14Yeah, and that's the thing.
21:15No matter who Democrats nominate on Tuesday, they'll be better than, my personal opinion, than whoever the Republicans put up.
21:25But, you know, recent polling from the University of Texas and the Texas Politics Project has Congresswoman Crockett with a
21:3112-point lead over Representative Tallarico.
21:35Momentum appears to be on her side right now.
21:38As a party leader, Chairman Scudder, how do you think the primary has gone so far?
21:43We mentioned the high voter turnout for Democrats.
21:48Yeah, I mean, look, primaries get raucous.
21:51And as Texas gets more and more in play, we're going to see more and more intense primaries.
21:57But I'll remind people, primaries make our party stronger.
22:01If primaries were bad for a party, Republicans would have been losing Texas 20 years ago.
22:05And the last time we had a really brutal primary was when Treasurer Ann Richards, Governor Mark White, and Attorney
22:12General Jim Maddox ran all against each other in 1990, calling each other coke addicts.
22:18And, I mean, everything you could imagine.
22:20But guess what?
22:21We won that election.
22:22We're going to come together after this.
22:24And with an excited base who spent all their time getting out voters, communicating with people, impressing the importance of
22:31voting, this is how you win an election in Texas, by building that infrastructure in 254 counties around the state.
22:38Real quickly, Chairman, because we're out of time, but what happens, will that unity hold, will you as chairmen be
22:48as confident as you are right now if the Democratic race turns into a runoff that goes to May?
22:58Don't put that on me, okay?
23:02But I'll say it'll be fine.
23:05We'll handle it.
23:06But I think that the voters of Texas will make their decision on this one on Tuesday.
23:11We will have a runoff, I'm sure, because we have really contentious races up and down our ballot, including races
23:18for governor and lieutenant governor and attorney general, all of which could go into runoff.
23:24So we very well could have that, but regardless, we announced our $30 million coordinated campaign, Texas Together, last week.
23:30We are launching it the day after the primary, runoff be damned, and we're sprinting to the finish line.
23:37The country's counting on us to get this one right, and we intend to.
23:40Texas Democratic Party chair Kendall Scudder, thank you very much for coming back to the last word.
23:45And a programming note for us, on Tuesday night, we will have special team coverage of the primary results, not
23:51just in Texas, but also North Carolina and Arkansas.
23:55Rachel Maddow will lead that coverage beginning at 7 p.m. Eastern right here on MS Now.
24:02Coming up, when it comes to a potential conflict with Iran, the only thing Donald Trump seems sure of is
24:09he seems to want to create more chaos.
24:11That's next.
24:16There is still no clear answer tonight about whether Donald Trump will order military strikes against Iran.
24:22But here's what we do know.
24:24Governments around the world are pulling diplomats and personnel out of the Middle East in preparation for something.
24:30This week, U.S. negotiators met with Iranian officials in Geneva.
24:34The talks ended without a deal.
24:37Instead of outlining a diplomatic path forward, Donald Trump is once again raising the prospect of military force.
24:44Here's what he told reporters at the White House earlier today.
24:48Well, we haven't made a final decision.
24:50We're not exactly happy with the way they're negotiating.
24:55They cannot have nuclear weapons.
24:57We're not thrilled with the way they're negotiating.
25:00So we'll see how it all works.
25:02When you look at what, look, we have the greatest military anywhere in the world.
25:05There's nothing close.
25:06I'd love not to use it, but sometimes you have to.
25:09Trump's threats have millions of people around the world on edge tonight as the president and his administration refuse to
25:16bring down the temperature.
25:17Trump says the negotiations are not going well.
25:20He says Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
25:23But let's remember, just months ago, Trump boasted to the American public that Iran's nuclear program was, quote, obliterated.
25:32So what changed and why the urgency now?
25:35Democrats in Congress are trying to rein in Trump's worst instincts when it comes to national security.
25:41House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries announced yesterday that Democrats will force a vote next week on a war powers resolution
25:48requiring Trump to get congressional approval before any military action against Iran.
25:54But before that vote can even happen, Trump's Defense Department is already preparing for potential conflict.
26:00The Wall Street Journal reports the aircraft carrier USS Gerald R.
26:05Ford approached the Middle East on Friday, adding a second carrier to the Armada of American naval and air power
26:12in the region.
26:14And the U.S.
26:15State Department is withdrawing non-essential personnel from at least two embassies in the region.
26:20In an email reviewed by The New York Times, embassy workers at the U.S.
26:24mission in Jerusalem were told those wishing to leave should do so today.
26:30Some U.S.
26:31embassy personnel in Lebanon have already been evacuated.
26:34The United Kingdom has withdrawn staff from its embassy in Iran as well.
26:40This is what escalation looks like.
26:43And tonight, the question is not just what will the president decide, especially after this president campaigned on ending years
26:51long wars with no end in sight.
26:54Joining us now, Michael McFaul, who served as the U.S.
26:57ambassador to Russia under President Obama.
27:00He is an MS now international affairs analyst and the author of Autocrats vs.
27:05Democrats, China, Russia, America and the New Global Disorder.
27:10Ambassador McFaul, welcome back to The Last Word.
27:13How dangerous is it for the president to use this kind of rhetoric while embassies are being evacuated and the
27:19U.S.
27:20military is moving to the region?
27:24It's extremely dangerous.
27:26I mean, this is the biggest military buildup the United States has had in the Middle East since we invaded
27:30Iraq in 2003.
27:32And it's happening, as you just rightly pointed out, with no debate, no serious debate here in the United States
27:40about why are we going to war with Iran again?
27:44And by the way, this buildup is much bigger than the strike that we had last June.
27:50And, you know, I was against the war in Iraq.
27:53I'm glad we had that debate.
27:54But we had a debate.
27:56The U.S.
27:56Congress weighed in.
27:58We're not doing any of that.
28:00And you see, with the president's own remarks and remarks by other people in his administration, they can't explain why
28:07we're going to war.
28:08One day, we need to take out this nuclear weapon.
28:12Hey, wait a minute.
28:13As you probably pointed out, they told us just months ago we obliterated that.
28:17There's no evidence that they're weeks away from a nuclear weapon.
28:21Then sometimes they talk about support for terrorism.
28:24We have to do it.
28:25Sometimes they talk about these missiles.
28:26We have to take out to protect Israel and our European allies.
28:31They just keep changing the objective.
28:33And that tells me they don't know why we are doing this attack.
28:38And that is really dangerous, antithetical to American national interests.
28:42So, Ambassador McFaul, if negotiations are still underway, what signal does it send to Tehran for President Trump to say
28:50things like,
28:51sometimes you have to use force?
28:55Well, I think what he's trying to do there is use coercive power to get them to negotiate.
29:01And maybe it'll work.
29:02Maybe it won't.
29:03We'll see.
29:03But I would just point out that we had an Iran nuclear deal back in 2015 in the administration that
29:11I proudly served, the Obama administration.
29:14And President Trump came in and he tore it up.
29:16He said, oh, this isn't good enough.
29:18And now he's trying to negotiate.
29:21Maybe he'll do a better deal.
29:22Let's see if he succeeds.
29:24But he's basically doing an Iran nuclear deal with the same mullahs that he told us a decade ago was
29:30a bad deal for America.
29:32The Washington Post reports Vice President J.D. Vance said Thursday that while military strikes against Iran remain under consideration
29:40by President Donald Trump,
29:41there is, quote, no chance that such strikes would result in the United States becoming involved in a years-long,
29:48drawn-out war.
29:50Ambassador McFaul.
29:53I mean, is he being serious?
29:55What is your response to the vice president's claim there?
30:00I would hope that the vice president would study history of wars, because every president and vice president promises quick
30:07and easy wars.
30:08President Bush promised that in 2003 in Iraq.
30:11We thought that was going to happen in Afghanistan.
30:14And even going back to when we bombed Serbia and a decision that I thought was right to stop the
30:21killing in Kosovo, we thought that was going to last for days.
30:24It went on for months because you cannot achieve your objectives, almost never, just through air campaigns, just through bombing.
30:33And I think we need to be very careful.
30:36We need to understand the consequences of going to war and recognize that sometimes wars are not easy to fit.
30:43They're easy to start, and they're sometimes very hard to end.
30:47Real quickly, Ambassador McFaul, because we are out of time.
30:50But Secretary of State Rubio is heading to Israel next week.
30:54Is that any sign to you that no action will take place before then?
31:00Yes, I think that's a positive sign.
31:02I think that's a positive sign.
31:05All right, and we're going to have to leave it there.
31:07Former Ambassador Michael McFaul, thank you, as always, for coming to The Last Word.
31:11Coming up, Donald Trump's immigration forces could be making all of America sicker by scaring non-citizens away from receiving
31:17medical care for themselves and their loved ones.
31:20But now some doctors are fed up with having Trump come between them and their patients.
31:26That's next with Dr. Vin Gupta.
31:32Last year, our MSNOW colleague Jacob Soboroff published a story titled The Death of Estella Ramos-Batton.
31:39Estella died in September of 2025, shortly after she and her teenage daughter, Nori, were deported to Guatemala.
31:47Here's part of Jacob's reporting.
31:50Speaking to Nori over the phone, she told us since that her mom had been consumed with stress since their
31:56deportation.
31:57She was barely sleeping.
31:58And Estella also suffered from liver cirrhosis, a chronic disease often related to alcohol abuse that experts say can significantly
32:04affect blood pressure.
32:05According to Estella's daughter, her mom gave up drinking a long time ago.
32:09But after being deported without her medication, she had no way of treating her symptoms.
32:13On Monday, around 7 o'clock at night in Guatemala, Estella told Nori she wasn't feeling well.
32:18But she refused to be taken to the hospital because she was too scared to leave the house.
32:23Hours later, she died.
32:24The money Nori and her mom had saved to pay for a lawyer to appeal their deportation was used to
32:30pay for Estella's funeral and her burial.
32:32With what little remains, the family bought a traditional Mayan dress so that Estella can be buried in it, a
32:37last gift from her family to her.
32:42Nori told MSNOW, quote, I want people to know that my mom's medications were taken away and not returned.
32:49They took away my mother's medicine.
32:51I had no way to help her.
32:54Estella's story is tragic.
32:56And unfortunately, stories like hers are becoming more common here in the United States since the beginning of Donald Trump's
33:03inhumane immigration crackdown.
33:05A 2025 Kaiser Family Foundation New York Times survey found that nearly half, 48 percent, of likely undocumented immigrants and
33:1414 percent of immigrant adults overall say they or a family member have avoided seeking medical care since January 2025
33:23due to immigration-related concerns.
33:26When people in communities are menaced out of seeking medical care, that means they stay sick.
33:32It means that sickness stays in the community.
33:36Germs don't check your papers.
33:38It means time out of work.
33:39It can mean that an easily treatable ailment could blow up into a dangerous and costly emergency situation.
33:46And doctors from across the country are taking notice.
33:49The New York Times recently published an op-ed from three Philadelphia doctors that have had patients fall ill or
33:56die after avoiding preventative care.
33:59The things that happen to our patients are inevitable consequences of ICE, treating people and families as targets rather than
34:07as human beings, carrying out enforcement without any consideration of medical risk or family circumstances.
34:14Detention, deportation, and family separation don't merely cause social and legal harm.
34:20They also create profound medical stress that exacerbates chronic diseases, worsens mental health, and induces medical crises.
34:30Making it dangerous to seek medical attention does not make anyone safer or healthier.
34:35When people are deterred from preventive care, treatable conditions worsen, emergency department utilization increases, and costs rise for everyone.
34:47And a California doctor elaborated on the strain this is causing American health care systems in this op-ed published
34:54in the San Francisco Chronicle.
34:56Over the past year, the Trump administration's immigration crackdown has spilled into emergency departments at hospitals across the country.
35:04And with the federal government's 2025 decision to allow immigration agents into sensitive locations like medical facilities and schools, hospitals
35:14have become front lines of heated battles.
35:16Thirty-two people died in immigration and customs enforcement custody in 2025, the highest recorded number of deaths in more
35:25than two decades, and most died in hospitals near detention centers.
35:30The death toll in 2026 already outpaces last years.
35:35Detainees are often held in overcrowded conditions with inadequate food, little to no health services, and without their necessary medications.
35:45Hospitals and health care institutions must do more to protect all of our patients and the providers who take care
35:51of them.
35:52The integrity of our emergency departments and the entire medical safety net is at stake.
35:59Joining us now, Dr. Vin Gupta, a practicing pulmonologist and an affiliate professor at the Institute for Health Metrics and
36:07Evaluation.
36:07He is also an MSNOW medical contributor.
36:11Dr. Gupta, thank you for being here.
36:13Do you know of any stories about patients who have avoided necessary medical treatment because of their immigration status?
36:22Absolutely, Jonathan.
36:23You know, the tragic story of Estella is emblematic of what's happening in every zip code across the country.
36:30And it's not just those that may not have the proper papers.
36:33It's those that have legal status as well.
36:36We're seeing an epidemic here of people avoiding care if they're an immigrant and their family members.
36:44If they have children, they're keeping their children home from needed vaccinations.
36:49They're an adult from needed screenings.
36:51You said it in the T up here.
36:54There's a few studies that have shown up to 84 percent of providers have seen that their patient population has
37:01declined utilization of services, preventive care, necessary care for an infectious disease.
37:07We're seeing delayed treatment as a result.
37:09So this is in every zip code across the country.
37:12And frankly, Jonathan, it often goes unnoticed in some cases because what you don't necessarily see, you don't know is
37:18happening.
37:19But this is happening everywhere.
37:21Dr. Gupta, can you walk us through what happens if a person who's not a citizen comes to the ER
37:27for care?
37:28Can ICE enter hospitals?
37:31They can.
37:32And so this is something that has changed over the last year of the Trump administration, Jonathan, where the sanctuary
37:38policies, where certain places were considered sacred, they are no longer.
37:43And so ICE agents, for example, can enter a hospital, go into common grounds, like a waiting room, and can
37:50wait in hallways.
37:51And that's what they're doing.
37:52They're actually going in certain places in hospitals, say, in Minnesota.
37:55They're waiting in their patrolling hallways.
37:58They're intimidating patients.
37:59They're intimidating providers.
38:01Often providers don't even know what to do.
38:03And so that's why there's an education effort underway to make sure patients and providers know their rights, know how
38:09to educate patients.
38:10But, yes, ICE agents can now actually be on premises in a way that they were not allowed to necessarily
38:16be on premises back before January 20th of last year.
38:19Well, Dr. Gupta, that's what I was going to ask you.
38:22Are medical professionals being trained in how to deal with ICE menacing health care centers?
38:29Yes.
38:30And so, you know, it's a state-by-state approach.
38:32I will say a lot.
38:34ACLU, the American Federation of Teachers, other entities are trying to do this.
38:38Education hospitals to a certain degree are trying to do it.
38:41Take California.
38:42I would say Governor Newsom and the efforts in California are the nation's leading efforts at the state level.
38:48Jonathan, to make sure that patients, providers, health systems know their rights.
38:53For example, in California, they're trying to pass the No Secret Police Act, where you can't actually cover your face,
38:59act like a police officer or an ICE enforcement agent, and intimidate people on site.
39:04Other efforts in California protecting the immigration status of patients, these are important to be doing in every state across
39:12the union.
39:12But to your point, what can providers and health system leaders make sure that everybody is aware of if you're
39:19caring for patients in health facilities across the country?
39:21First, designate one point of contact.
39:25Usually it's somebody in compliance or law who has that background.
39:28If you're a provider out there, you're watching this show right now, make sure you know who that point of
39:33contact is.
39:33If you see an ICE agent, make sure you know who that point of contact is.
39:37And cautiously direct that agent to that individual.
39:41Verify warrants.
39:42Jonathan, this is something that, again, happened in California and other places across the country sporadically.
39:46But you need to have a judicial warrant to then enter a clinical treatment area.
39:52You can be in the hallway if you're an ICE agent, unfortunately, but you can't enter an actual patient treatment
39:57room without a judicial warrant, not an administrative warrant.
40:01That's a key difference there.
40:03Protecting patient privacy, patient privacy still applies.
40:08You do not, you cannot, you do not share any information with an ICE agent unless they present a court
40:15order specifically asking for it.
40:17That's really important.
40:18And I need to just say, keep care uninterrupted.
40:21Stay calm.
40:21Continue patient care.
40:23And that's really the most important thing more than anything else is that continuity of care.
40:30All very important information you just shared with us.
40:33Dr. Vin Gupta, thank you very much for coming back to The Last Word.
40:38And we'll be right back.
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