- 15 hours ago
The Last Word with Lawrence ODonnell - Season 13 - Episode 28
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00:00Hey, Jen. We're going to go straight to breaking news now. We have breaking news on day 10 of the
00:05search for Nancy Guthrie, the mother of today's show co-host Savannah Guthrie. Joining us now from Arizona is Mark
00:13Santea, MSNOW investigative reporter. Mark, what is the latest?
00:19Well, we can tell you, according to one law enforcement source, a person is in custody and being questioned right
00:26now in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. We do know, again, a person is in custody and being questioned by
00:32investigators right now in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie.
00:37As I should tell you, at this point, we don't know much about that person. We also have not heard
00:42any word about Nancy if she's been found. But we do know at this point, a person, one person, according
00:49to a law enforcement source, one person is in custody and being questioned in the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie.
00:56We are right now standing about 15 minutes from the border, just to tell you about the radius of this
01:01investigation. Earlier today, new video, new pictures were given out to the public, sent out. We really saw this investigation
01:08start to pick up steam.
01:10We can tell you that FBI agents were in this area near the U.S.-Mexico border here. They were tracking
01:16down some leads. They were also across Tucson. We saw FBI agents, Border Patrol, as well as the Pima County
01:23Sheriff's deputies in the area around Annie Guthrie's home, Annie Guthrie, the daughter of Nancy, as well as the sister
01:30of Savannah.
01:31They were in that area. They were talking to residents there. They were going through the brush, looking for any
01:37sort of clues, evidence, working together. We saw more than a dozen federal agents, as well as local police, working
01:43there.
01:43But again, a major break in this case. Day 10, a person in custody and being questioned by investigators right
01:52now. Again, we are being told that by one law enforcement source.
01:55This investigation really picking up today when those new images were released, especially that video. Law enforcement sources telling us
02:03they expected a flood of calls to come in. We don't at this point know what broke this case, but
02:08we know people were calling into the command center.
02:10That video of the suspect on the porch, on the front area of Nancy's home, that they were able to
02:18see that he had two, that person had two pairs of gloves on. He did have a, what appeared to
02:23be a gun in his front waistband in a holster there. Approached the house. He was covered, but you could
02:29still see things, right? You could see that his eyebrows were very well groomed. They were trimmed. He appeared to
02:34have a mustache.
02:35So a lot was gleaned from that, as well as the person's gait. And in an earlier post from Savannah
02:41Guthrie herself said, someone knows this person. If you really look at it, the law enforcement sources we talked to
02:47said, hey, that gait, the movement, the backpack, the clothing, there was enough there to generate some tips, some leads.
02:54And we can tell you that Pima County Sheriff's Office, as well as the FBI, Border Patrol, the task force
03:01officers, they have been working nonstop since Nancy has gone missing 10 days ago, following several leads.
03:07We know, again, just talking about the radius, we're about an hour and a half south of Tucson here near
03:12the border, the U.S.-Mexico border here.
03:15The agents have also been around the Tucson area. But again, at this point, we know a person is in
03:22custody.
03:23That person is being questioned by law enforcement at this time. We don't have much more than that.
03:28We don't know where they were taken into custody. We don't know if there's any connection at this point.
03:34We don't know who that person is. We're expecting to learn much more in the coming hours.
03:39We still haven't heard if there's a press conference planned. Kash Patel saying earlier, FBI director saying earlier, they were
03:45looking at some people of interest, a person of interest, sort of knowing what was about to happen.
03:51And the FBI director, correct. We are told, again, a person is in custody being questioned at this time. Back
03:59to you.
04:00Mark, when we see that video today, 10 days after the abduction, it leaves us wondering why haven't we seen
04:10that video earlier, especially if it was going to be so helpful to the investigation as it appears to have
04:16been today.
04:18That's a very good question. And that's something we asked law enforcement as well.
04:22It appears that there was some technical issues with the camera, with that Ness camera and that investigators specifically.
04:30This is something the FBI is very good at. FBI agents from Quantico across the country, very good at this
04:36sort of technological move.
04:38They were able to sort of get in, work with private companies and access that video.
04:42We were told I'm not tech savvy at all. And the way it was explained to me from a law
04:47enforcement source is if you're walking on the beach, those footprints, you leave imprints.
04:51So even if a camera isn't rolling on you, isn't recording, those prints are in that device.
04:57You just have to have the right people sort of get in and extract that.
05:01And this morning, they were able to extract those images, the still photos, as well as that video.
05:06They got that video out. And hours later, you now have a person in custody.
05:12And again, that video, if you look at it, well, it's not color. It's black and white.
05:16What does it really show? But it showed so much to investigators, as well as if you knew that person,
05:22if you knew the gate of that person,
05:24the movement, the eyebrows, the possible mustache, that was enough to have someone pick up the phone and call.
05:31And also for investigators, if you look at that video on the front porch area, you see the person,
05:38but you also see that archway. Based on that, investigators are able to take that sort of fixed position, look
05:45at the suspect, measure the suspect.
05:47They can give you the suspect's height, a weight on the ground.
05:50You see those tiles, those pavers on the ground right by the front door.
05:54Investigators tell me they're able to look at those tiles, take the measurement of those tiles,
05:58and then take the shoe, sort of the measurement of the suspect's shoe, figure out a shoe size from there.
06:03So much was gleaned from this information. Again, it's a strategic move.
06:08We're told that they were able to obtain these this morning.
06:10They got those out there to the public for the public's knowledge, but also important.
06:15We were told that as much as it was for the public, it was also for the suspect,
06:19for the person who possibly was on that porch to say, look, it's closing in.
06:24They know who you are. They're moving closer to figuring this out.
06:27And the hope is, in many cases, that the suspect, the person, makes a move,
06:32hoping to cover their tracks, but really they expose themselves.
06:35They make a phone call. They drop a piece of clothing.
06:38They just make a move to sort of uncover who they are.
06:42They're also able to get a timeline from that.
06:44And cell phone dumps, so much information is gleaned from that video.
06:50They're also, in the neighborhood, just sort of doing old-fashioned police work, talking to people.
06:55We talked to a resident. She had an FBI agent at her door today.
06:58She lived in the area around Annie Guthrie's home.
07:02FBI agents came up to the door, asked if there was any surveillance video, if they saw anything.
07:06So you had a multiple-pronged investigation.
07:08And the investigation, and this is important, this is not a finish line.
07:12This is not a finish line because a person is in custody being questioned.
07:16This, in a big sense, in a sense, is a start line.
07:20They're going to sort of talk, see if they can get any information from the person, and then they work
07:24backwards.
07:25Where was that person in the days before?
07:28Does that person know Nancy, know the family?
07:31Does that, what connections, what possible connections?
07:33So there's so much work to still be done.
07:36Again, a person's being, a person has been detained, that person's being questioned, but at no means is this investigation
07:43over.
07:44And again, and most important, Nancy still hasn't been found.
07:48So we're still waiting to hear any word from investigators on that.
07:52But at this point, according to one law enforcement source, a person is in custody, and that person is being
07:58questioned.
07:59And that is the breaking news of this hour.
08:02A person has been detained and is now being questioned in the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother.
08:09Joining our coverage now is Rob D'Amico, MSNOW National Security and Intelligence Analyst and former FBI Special Agent.
08:18Rob, what is your reading of the situation at this hour?
08:22Well, like Mark said, a person in custody is not the end of this.
08:26Obviously, the end of this is finding Nancy.
08:29If this person is connected, what part of the connection is this person being questioned?
08:37In certain kidnapping rings, when it's an organized ring, they only have people to do certain things.
08:46Part of it may be getting the kidnapper.
08:49Part of it may be driving a vehicle.
08:51And then they're out of where the actual detention of the kidnapped person is.
08:56So if they get them, sometimes they may be involved in it, but they don't even understand or know where
09:02the person that was kidnapped is.
09:04So it depends on what kind of ring this is.
09:07It depends on the knowledge of the person.
09:08It depends if it's the right person or someone that looked like in the video and they had enough other
09:15corroborating evidence to bring them into custody to question them.
09:18So it is a start and it may be a person involved that actually doesn't know the location, which is
09:26going to be frustrating in itself.
09:28But it would lead to other things when you start if you took the person in custody and they had
09:34a phone and then you start exploiting that phone.
09:36So there are many things that can happen with this, but it is something right now.
09:43If the release of that video today did create a break in the case, this break that we might be
09:49seeing tonight, what was the delay in releasing that video over the last 10 days?
09:55What could that have been about?
09:58I don't think they had the video.
09:59I think they, as Mark said, from what I'm hearing, is they got this video today.
10:06Whatever technology they're using, if it was folks back in Quantico, sometimes, depending on how they got it, was it
10:14in the cloud and they're working with Nest engineers to somehow figure out how to get it from their systems?
10:20Or was it something in the camera, as Mark had said, that there's images made even when it wasn't transpired,
10:29transported to the iCloud and it's resident on the camera?
10:34They may not have known it.
10:36And just working with the engineers at Nest, the folks back at Quantico were able to capture it because I
10:43believe they released it as soon.
10:45I think the only people they showed it to first to see if they knew who it was was the
10:50family.
10:51If the family could recognize that person, then they wouldn't have to go out to the public.
10:56If the family looked at it and said, oh, that's so-and-so, I really believe it's so-and-so,
11:01they may not have released it because they didn't have to at that point to get that information.
11:06But when the family looked at it, from what I heard earlier, was they said, this person's not familiar to
11:12us.
11:13We don't know them. And then that's when they decided to release it to the public.
11:16So I don't think it was a matter of they were holding it, trying to do something with it before
11:22they released it.
11:22I believe they finally got to that technology in order to do that because the people at Quantico are the
11:28cutting-edge folks.
11:29They're the ones that really do things that you can't do in the field.
11:34All the national-level folks are back there, many PhDs and electrical engineers.
11:40They're not agents. They are technical folks at the engineering and research facility, which is what we used to call
11:46it.
11:47But they're the ones that do this.
11:50Like if this SD card, a micro SD card is smashed, you take the pieces and they get data off
12:00of that and then they piece it together to make the video and stuff.
12:04So I don't know exactly what technology was done, but I think the video was just gleaned today and then
12:10they released it from there.
12:13Rob, I'm thinking back to the investigation of the shooting at Brown University where there was an announcement like this,
12:22where someone was brought in for questioning in that shooting and then released.
12:29And the investigation went in a completely different direction ultimately.
12:33And so as of tonight, what is the next stage of this you'd be expecting if this really is a
12:42breakthrough tonight?
12:44I would expect it's going to go on again if the person is overwhelmed, wasn't expecting to get caught and
12:52it happens and they start talking.
12:58Do they have to then, as I talked about earlier, were they captured with the cell phone that they're now
13:04going to have to exploit that cell phone?
13:05Does a person give them their password? If it's a phone and they don't have the password again,
13:10that may have to go back to Quantico in order to break the security code, in order to look at
13:17their encrypted apps.
13:17That's the big thing. Most criminals communicate on encrypted apps and in transit, the FBI cannot obviously intercept or decrypt
13:27that.
13:28You have to have a device. But once you have the device, then you have to be able to open
13:32it.
13:32And then there's ones that, you know, delete within so many seconds of being seen.
13:37There are some technologies out there. I work with a software company that can actually grab some of those depending
13:44on how it's captured and look at those.
13:47So it's a matter of is a person cooperative? Are they talking?
13:52Does the person actually know if they're involved? Do they know other aspects of the group and what they're doing?
14:00Because, again, the professional groups, they each have a role.
14:04This one does this. And a lot of times they don't tell those persons that are involved in something that
14:10it's where the location is.
14:12That's where it was in Afghanistan. You had a group that did the kidnapping.
14:15You had a group that transported it. Once you got from Afghanistan, you had a group that transported in Pakistan
14:21and then so on.
14:23And then you had guards. And none of them knew the other part of the equation.
14:27So you could capture them, that they're involved, and they really couldn't lead you to the hostage or the kidnapped
14:33person.
14:35Mark Santia, if you're still with us, I believe Mark is still with us in Arizona.
14:40Is there any indication at this hour that there will be any official communication tonight, any kind of press conference,
14:49any kind of statement?
14:52Once I reached out to Kima County Sheriff's Office a short time ago, I was told to monitor social media.
14:59At this point, there was no press conference in place.
15:01As Rob was saying, there's still so much work to be done.
15:05We're hoping. I mean, they were very forthcoming, very communicative to the media in the beginning days.
15:12We've really sort of seen them slow down on some of those press conferences and interviews.
15:17So we're hoping to learn more. At this point, we've not been given a heads up that there's any press
15:22conferences.
15:23We were told, again, to monitor their social media accounts.
15:26But as Rob was saying, so much work is still needed to be done.
15:29And I think what's most important, yes, a person who's in custody, they're being questioned.
15:34We've confirmed that, a law enforcement source.
15:36But we've also, I think there's still more questions than answers at this point.
15:40And the main question being, where is Nancy? How is Nancy?
15:44I think that right now, as Rob was talking about earlier, that is the looming question.
15:49So a person is in custody being talked to, but at this point, we still don't have any information about
15:56Nancy.
15:57Mark Santia, thank you for bringing us that breaking news tonight.
16:00We will be back to you over the course of this hour as any more developments occur.
16:05Rob D'Amico, thank you very much for joining our live coverage of this breaking news.
16:14Today, Donald Trump's prosecutors, who have found nothing to pursue in the Epstein files,
16:20tried and failed to get indictments against six Democratic members of Congress for saying this.
16:31You can refuse illegal orders.
16:33You can refuse illegal orders.
16:36You must refuse illegal orders.
16:38No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.
16:42We know this is hard.
16:44And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.
16:46But whether you're serving in the CIA,
16:47in the Army,
16:48or Navy,
16:49the Air Force,
16:50your vigilance is critical.
16:52And know that we have your back.
16:54Because now, more than ever,
16:55the American people need you.
16:57We need you to stand up for our laws,
16:59our Constitution,
17:00and who we are as Americans.
17:04The New York Times broke this news tonight,
17:07reporting federal prosecutors in Washington sought and failed on Tuesday to secure an indictment
17:13against six Democratic lawmakers who posted a video this fall that enraged President Trump
17:19by reminding active duty members of the military and intelligence community
17:23that they were obligated to refuse illegal orders for people familiar with the matter said.
17:30Joining us now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California.
17:33He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
17:36Senator,
17:37this is one of those moments that we have never before seen in the history of this country.
17:43Donald Trump getting his so-called Justice Department to try to prosecute members of Congress
17:50for publicly reciting the law.
17:55Not once in the history of this country has that ever happened.
18:00Lawrence, this is a stunning development.
18:03It is really hard to overstate the significance of this.
18:07The assault, the frontal assault on the rule of law,
18:11the Justice Department under Pam Bondi,
18:13no doubt acting under the instructions of the President of the United States,
18:18sought to indict six members of Congress for exercising their First Amendment rights,
18:24for serving their constituents,
18:27for upholding their responsibility as representatives.
18:30They sought to indict six members of Congress.
18:34Congress, it is just such a shock to see the rule of law so betrayed,
18:40so utterly betrayed.
18:41If we look at this period in the future
18:44and the milestones on the road to dictatorship,
18:47this is a big one to consider how this Justice Department has been misused,
18:53how it's been weaponized in such a blatant fashion.
18:56And the fact that the grand jury rejected it, of course,
18:59is very significant because that's so unusual.
19:02But it shouldn't dissuade us or fail to have us appreciate the lawlessness of what they tried to do.
19:13The fact it was unsuccessful, yes, should be applauded.
19:16The fact they tried, though, is a five-alarm fire.
19:22I want to read Senator Mark Kelly's response to this tonight.
19:26He said,
19:26This is an outrageous abuse of power by Donald Trump and his lackeys.
19:30It wasn't enough for Pete Hegseth to censure me and threaten to demote me.
19:35Now it appears they tried to have me charged with a crime,
19:38all because of something I said that they didn't like.
19:43That's not the way things work in America.
19:45Donald Trump wants every American to be too scared to speak out against him.
19:51The most patriotic thing any of us can do is not back down.
19:57And, Senator, it also seems one of the patriotic things we can do
20:01is not shirk our duty to serve when called for jury duty.
20:08That grand jury in Washington, D.C. stood up for the Constitution.
20:14They sure did.
20:16And they've done so now time and time again with this lawless administration.
20:20But I applaud Mark Kelly for his statement and Alyssa Slotkin and Jason Crow.
20:25Basically, what they're saying, what I'm saying,
20:28what all of us are saying that are sort of in the crosshairs of this Department of Injustice
20:33is basically, screw you.
20:36We're not going to stop for one moment speaking out.
20:39We're going to do our job as representatives, no matter what you throw our way.
20:43And I think we all have to do this, members of Congress certainly,
20:48but universities need to push back.
20:50Law firms need to push back.
20:52Companies need to push back.
20:54While we still have a democracy, none of us can hide.
20:58We all have to tell the administration they can buzz off, they can screw off.
21:03Screw them.
21:04We're not going to give in to this kind of despotism because this is such a serious threat to our
21:11democracy.
21:11And I know we've seen a lot of them and we can get numb to it.
21:15But what we have just witnessed today is just a full-on assault on our free speech rights
21:22and the right of Americans to be represented in Congress by their chosen representatives
21:27and not to have the administration weaponize the Justice Department to try to remove them from office.
21:34Senator Mark Kelly calls the people in the Justice Department who did this Donald Trump's lackeys.
21:40That's a kind word for what's happening in that Justice Department,
21:44where they are very eager to follow Donald Trump's illegal orders.
21:50Going back to your experience working in that Justice Department as a federal prosecutor in Los Angeles,
21:55what would you have done if they came to you and said,
22:00we want you to present this to a grand jury to get an indictment against these members of Congress for
22:06reciting the law?
22:10I would have said, hell no, I'd quit.
22:12And it's telling that the only person apparently on this indictment willing to submit this is Piero, the U.S.
22:20attorney herself.
22:21None of the career people evidently wanted their names on this.
22:25And they understand that what they have been asked to do in seeking indictment on a fraudulent basis like this
22:33is a violation of their code of ethics.
22:36It's probably a violation of their ethical standards under the Bar Association.
22:41It may be worse than that.
22:42And they don't want to be tarred by this the way Piero will be tarred forever by this.
22:48But Bondi, Blanche, Piero, all of these people in the Justice Department,
22:56I know they won't, but they should be completely ashamed of themselves.
23:00This is just disgraceful conduct.
23:03And I think any prosecutor asked to bring baseless cases like this needs to do their civic duty and say,
23:09I won't do it and be willing to be fired or to quit because, you know,
23:14we all need to show that courage that the grand jury showed and that others have demonstrated in standing up
23:20to this president who wants to be a dictator.
23:23And it seems to be the same kind of cowardice that led to that raid on the Fulton County of
23:30voting records.
23:31The FBI, for the first time in history, going in and seizing voting records,
23:36all those people you see marching in there in their FBI uniforms following those orders.
23:41They're also in a position to say no.
23:46They are.
23:47And we have seen some of the top leadership at the FBI be fired or quit because they're upholding their
23:54ethical duty.
23:55They're not willing to fire prosecutors who worked on legitimate cases.
23:59They're not willing to dismiss or seek the dismissal of valid cases like the case involving the mayor of New
24:06York who's charged with corruption.
24:07You're seeing prosecutors and FBI agents quit rather than do unethical or unlawful things.
24:14You're seeing the head of CDC do the same thing.
24:16You're seeing countless examples of courage.
24:19And frankly, those examples should inspire all the rest of us.
24:23We should look to them, not look to these who are betraying our laws, our institutions.
24:30You know, the Bondi's and the Blanche's, they're the betrayers.
24:34But there are some really courageous people that are saying, no, I'm not going to do that.
24:38I would rather quit or be fired than go along with such an egregious abuse of power.
24:45Senator Adam Sheff, thank you very much for joining us tonight on this breaking news.
24:50Thanks, Lawrence.
24:52Coming up, we have more breaking news to cover tonight.
24:56Donald Trump and Mike Johnson lost a key vote on the Trump tariffs tonight in the House of Representatives.
25:04Neil Katyal, who argued the case against the Trump tariffs in the Supreme Court, will join us next.
25:13More breaking news tonight.
25:15A huge loss for Donald Trump in the House of Representatives,
25:19with Republicans defecting to vote with Democrats against Donald Trump.
25:25Tonight, House Speaker Mike Johnson tried and failed to block any vote to repeal Donald Trump's tariffs until July,
25:33knowing that such a vote could pass the House of Representatives at any time,
25:37with a majority of the House now opposed to Donald Trump's illegal and unconstitutional tariffs.
25:44The Wall Street Journal called it a stinging rebuke of GOP leadership that paves the way
25:50for challenges to Trump's signature economic policy.
25:55The Wall Street Journal reports,
25:57the vote means that Democrats will be able to bring resolutions challenging Trump's tariffs to the House floor,
26:04setting up a series of high-profile votes that could begin as soon as Wednesday.
26:11And this morning, Justice Ketanji Brown-Jackson was asked,
26:15what's taking the Supreme Court so long to decide the Trump tariff case?
26:22So, let's talk about the law.
26:25Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution.
26:27This is not for you.
26:28This is for our viewers who are going to wonder,
26:30Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and exercises.
26:35Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3,
26:37the Commerce Clause, to regulate commerce with foreign nations.
26:39Article 1, Section 10, Clause 2,
26:41no state shall, without consent of the Congress,
26:43lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports.
26:46Now, I'm not a lawyer, but this seems kind of clear.
26:49I'm like, were you speaking English?
26:52But this seems kind of clear to me.
26:54So, and this is not a question about what you are deciding,
26:57but I think people want to know,
26:58why is it taking so long to reach a decision on tariffs?
27:01Oh, I'm sorry.
27:02You're talking about the tariffs.
27:04Well, you know, there are lots of nuanced legal issues
27:07that the court has to thoroughly consider.
27:10We had oral arguments, as we normally do in cases,
27:14and people may not be familiar with the court's process.
27:17We actually deliberate over a period of time
27:21where each of the justices decides how they feel about the issues and writes,
27:25and it takes a while to write.
27:27So that's the answer?
27:29Yes.
27:29You're still writing, you're still deliberating.
27:31We, we, the court is going through its process of deliberation,
27:35and, you know, the American people expect for us to be thorough
27:39and clear in our determinations, and sometimes that takes time.
27:44And just last night, Donald Trump explained his method of setting tariffs
27:49that he wants the Supreme Court to make constitutional.
27:56I got an emergency call from, I believe, the prime minister of Switzerland,
28:01and she was very aggressive, but nice, but very aggressive.
28:05Sir, we are a small country.
28:07We can't do this.
28:08We can't do this.
28:09We are a small country.
28:09I couldn't get her off the phone.
28:11We are a small country.
28:13I said, you may be a small country,
28:14but we have a $42 billion deficit with you.
28:18No, no, we are a small country.
28:20Again and again and again.
28:21I couldn't get her off the phone.
28:22So it was at 30%.
28:24And I didn't really like the way she talked to us.
28:27And so instead of giving her a reduction, I raised it to 39%.
28:35Joining us now is Neil Katyal, former acting U.S. Solicitor General,
28:38who has argued the Trump tariff case before the Supreme Court
28:42on behalf of the businesses challenging the Trump tariff policy.
28:46He's also a professor at Georgetown Law and an MSNOW legal analyst.
28:50Neil, there was Donald Trump explaining the process that he thinks is constitutional,
28:58that he can set the tariff based on the way someone he speaks to in another country sounds
29:04to him or how long he stays on the phone.
29:07Yeah, Lawrence, it's really good to be with you, first of all.
29:11And unlike some litigants, I'm not here to predict the court's outcome or to litigate this case on TV or
29:18anything or threaten what's going to happen if we lose.
29:21But, you know, look, I have faith the court, it's a pending case.
29:25I argued the case back on November 5th.
29:27I have faith that the court's going to apply the best understanding of the Constitution.
29:32And, you know, our message on November 5th and in our briefs, and I'll stick to that here on your
29:39show, is very simple.
29:40The Constitution, the framers, our nation's 250 years of history are clear.
29:46Only Congress has the power to impose taxes on Americans.
29:50And tariffs are nothing but taxes that Americans pay, paid by Americans, levied on Americans.
29:58And so that was our simple message back on November 5th.
30:02And we're hopeful that the court will heed it.
30:05And that case arrived at the Supreme Court after a unanimous decision by the Court of International Trade,
30:14which is a special court in New York City, where all the justices, all the judges working on that court
30:19are the judicial experts on international trade.
30:23It's all they do.
30:25And they were unanimous on it.
30:27They were completely clear.
30:28Everything you thought you knew about this in high school turned out to be true, according to them.
30:34Yeah, that's exactly right.
30:35The Specialized Court of International Trade found it was illegal.
30:39The Court of Appeals, in our case, found it was illegal.
30:42And a separate court in Washington, D.C., found it illegal.
30:45So when it went up to the Supreme Court, every court to have ruled on the question,
30:49found that Donald Trump's taxes and tariffs were illegal.
30:54And I don't mean to just isolate Trump.
30:55I mean, the case was not about any particular president.
30:59It's about the presidency.
31:00It's not about partisanship.
31:02It's about principle.
31:03And that principle is really simple.
31:04It's exactly the way you started this segment tonight, Lawrence, which is, you know,
31:09under our Constitution, it's Congress that holds the ballgame, not the president when it comes to setting tariffs.
31:15I mean, we had the Boston Revolution over this kind of, Bosundi Party over this kind of stuff of levying
31:21taxes on Americans.
31:23And so, you know, that's what the case is about.
31:27And we're hopeful that the court will listen to what we said.
31:32One of the reliefs of actually listening to the Supreme Court arguments is that's the one time that the Trump
31:41position was not that foreign countries pay the tariffs.
31:46They didn't try to stand up there and defend those tariffs the way Donald Trump does, pretending that somebody in
31:53China, China pays the tariffs imposed on things that we import and buy from China.
32:00At least that lie was eliminated from the Supreme Court argument.
32:05Well, I mean, at times the government did make that argument to the Supreme Court and say the tariffs weren't
32:10a revenue raising measure and that it's borne by other folks.
32:14So I'm not quite sure that's right. But I do agree with the general gist of what you're saying, Lawrence,
32:19which is like, look,
32:20the great thing about this country is that we can have a Supreme Court where we can bring these challenges
32:25and settle them and settle them under law and not by force or anything else.
32:30And I think, you know, I hope that your viewers listen to the argument because I thought really it did
32:35crystallize the positions of both sides.
32:37And the justices were asking really tough and fair and thoughtful questions to all of us.
32:43And that process to be part of is really something very special.
32:49And so, you know, as we think about, you know, where our American democracy goes, I think the court has
32:55an important role to play in our future.
32:57Yeah. When you listen to these arguments, sometimes you can think about the sides in various ways.
33:03But when I listen to your argument that day, it was so clear to me that you were standing there
33:10representing the founders.
33:12You were standing there representing the authors of the Constitution who wrote this directly into the Constitution.
33:21Yeah, I mean, that is absolutely true.
33:24I can just tell you the state my state of mind at that time was I really was thinking about
33:30Madison and Hamilton and Jefferson and what happened in Boston.
33:34And for me, the son of immigrants to be doing that and trying to remind America and our great court
33:41about what our values are.
33:43There was no higher privilege I could ever have as a lawyer or as a citizen.
33:47Neil, we're going to squeeze in a commercial break here.
33:49When we come back, there's another important case you've been handling that Donald Trump has been losing.
33:55We'll come back with that next.
34:01Donald Trump's illegal interfering in federal funding for projects that have been authorized by Congress is finally facing a serious
34:11legal challenge in court.
34:13Donald Trump is trying to illegally stop the biggest and most important infrastructure project in the United States.
34:21He he does not care how many union workers lose their jobs in the process.
34:25The New York Times reports dozens of newly laid off union members exhorted President Trump to restore funding to the
34:3216 billion dollar gateway rail tunnel project.
34:36The Gateway Development Commission created to build a new tunnel under the Hudson River connecting New York and New Jersey
34:42is suing along with other entities.
34:45They're suing Donald Trump to force the funding that the federal government has already provided for the tunnel.
34:52New Jersey's Democratic Governor Mikey Sherrill, who is part of the group that is suing the Trump administration to restore
34:58the funding for the rail tunnel,
34:59said this on this program last week.
35:04It makes no sense when you see a president who is harming jobs, harming the economy right here,
35:11especially when his jobs numbers are not looking so high.
35:15This tunnel isn't just about all of the people that could be employed with really good jobs in this region.
35:20It's also about those commuters that go back and forth every single day.
35:23My husband's one of them.
35:25It's the difference if, you know, you're having a delay between picking your kid up at daycare on time
35:30or making it home to eat with your family or your kid's soccer or basketball game.
35:35And Trump just doesn't seem to care about families and people across the country.
35:42Neil Katyal is back with us.
35:43He's the lead counsel for the Gateway Development Commission,
35:46the interstate group in charge of building the tunnel.
35:49And, Neil, this is such an important case in the Trump interference with the government as it has always run.
35:59Congress passes the authorizations, the appropriations, the money to do this.
36:04The president signs it into law.
36:06And that's the law.
36:07And that's how these projects get done.
36:09That's how this government does everything.
36:11And Donald Trump wants to be the president who can come in and just violate all of that process.
36:18Exactly.
36:19And, Lawrence, just as in tariffs where I had the privilege of representing American small businesses,
36:25here I have the privilege of speaking for the Gateway Project,
36:27which is all about American construction workers and the American states of New York and New Jersey
36:33and, frankly, all the states because this project is so important to the economy of the entire nation.
36:40And we're standing up for everyone in those states and every construction worker and every person who knows how important
36:46these tunnels are to our nation's economy.
36:49And we don't care whether you're a Republican or a Democrat.
36:52We just think the Constitution demands a certain result.
36:55And here you're absolutely right.
36:57Congress has the appropriation power.
36:59But even more to this, you know, the federal government signed contracts that said we are going to give you
37:06money to build this construction project
37:08and you put in some money as well, Gateway Company, Corporation.
37:11You put in some money and we'll put in a lot of money.
37:14And as a result, construction began.
37:17Lawrence, there are literally holes in the ground now and over a thousand construction workers who don't know whether they're
37:22going to have a job next week
37:24because Donald Trump has had basically a tunnel tantrum and decided to try and stop this construction project, at least
37:32temporarily.
37:33And that imposes massive harm to everyone.
37:36But more to the point, it's just illegal.
37:39What is the state of the case as of tonight?
37:42Yeah, so there are two different cases, just like in tariffs where you pointed out there was a specialized court
37:48that heard tariffs in the first instance,
37:51as well as a federal regular trial court.
37:53Same exact thing happens here.
37:55There's a specialized court that hears breach of contract claims, and that suit has been brought by us.
38:01And then there's a separate suit brought by New York and New Jersey.
38:04And last week in that New York, New Jersey lawsuit, the federal judge put a temporary restraining order on the
38:11ability of the Trump administration to stop those funds.
38:15That is now going to the Court of Appeals on a rushed basis.
38:18And we, in our case, met with the judge today and set a schedule for that judge to resolve the
38:24merits of that particular case as well.
38:27So all this is moving pretty quickly through the courts, as it should, because, frankly, time is of the essence.
38:33I mean, there are people who don't know whether they're going to have their job,
38:35and there are literal holes in the ground which are so dangerous to the public safety.
38:41And there is a constitutional process at the base of this that we have been following right up until Donald
38:48Trump.
38:49That's exactly right.
38:51You know, every counterparty to federal government contracts in the past has assumed, you know, normal, good faith dealing and
38:59the like.
38:59This president decided to cancel these contracts.
39:03First, he said it was illegal DEI.
39:06Then it was immigration enforcement concerns.
39:08And then later, evidently, had it something to do with the names on an airport and a train station.
39:14You know, none of this is legal.
39:17All of it is wrong.
39:18And we look forward to presenting our case in the courts on all of this.
39:22Neil Katyal, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
39:27Tonight's last word is next.
39:34The clown of the Trump cabinet, Howard Lutnick, who previously claimed to have no relationship with Jeffrey Epstein,
39:41who, when he was Jeffrey Epstein's next door neighbor in Manhattan,
39:45has been exposed by the Epstein files as a liar who, if he were working in the British government, say,
39:53would be fired immediately.
39:58You led people to believe that you had cut off all contact with Jeffrey Epstein after the 2005 encounter you
40:10and your wife had in his apartment.
40:13But as I'm sure you know, the Epstein files show a very different record of interaction.
40:21Why did the Epstein files show you coordinating a meeting and planning a visit with Jeffrey Epstein on his private
40:28island in December 2012?
40:33Thank you for the question.
40:35I'm glad to be here to make it clear that I met Jeffrey Epstein when he moved, when I moved
40:43to a house next door to him in New York.
40:46And I met him then.
40:48And over the next 14 years, I met him two other times that I can recall.
40:54Two times.
40:55And that is none for six years.
40:58So six years later, I met him.
41:00And then a year and a half after that, I met him.
41:03And never again.
41:05Probably the total.
41:06And you've seen all of these documents, of these millions and millions of documents.
41:11There may be 10 emails connecting me with him, probably about 10 emails connecting me with him over a 14
41:20-year period.
41:21I did not have any relationship with him.
41:26I barely had anything to do with that person.
41:34But the question was, why did you plan to visit with Jeffrey Epstein on his private island in December 2012?
41:42And Howard Letnick did not answer that question.
41:45The thing about pathological liars is when they get caught in their lie, they don't then immediately switch to the
41:55truth.
41:58Did you, in fact, make the visit to Jeffrey Epstein's private island?
42:03I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation.
42:09My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies.
42:15I had another couple with, they were there as well with their children.
42:20And we had lunch on the island.
42:23That is true.
42:24For an hour.
42:25And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife, all together.
42:30We were on family vacation.
42:32We were not a part to suggest there was anything untoward about that in 2012.
42:38I don't recall why we did it, but we did it.
42:43I don't recall why we did it, but we did.
42:49The lying Lutnick gets tonight's last word.
42:53The 11th Hour with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
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