- 29 minutes ago
We turn our attention to a major piece of legislation now entering the national conversation—the recently introduced Probation Bill.
What does it mean for offenders, for rehabilitation, and for the wider justice system in Trinidad and Tobago? Is this a step toward reform, or are there concerns about implementation and oversight?
We'll be joined by one key voice to break down the implications, the intent behind the bill, and what it could mean for crime, punishment, and second chances in this country.
What does it mean for offenders, for rehabilitation, and for the wider justice system in Trinidad and Tobago? Is this a step toward reform, or are there concerns about implementation and oversight?
We'll be joined by one key voice to break down the implications, the intent behind the bill, and what it could mean for crime, punishment, and second chances in this country.
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NewsTranscript
00:14And welcome back to Beyond the Headlines.
00:16Mr. Mauer, thank you again for joining us.
00:18Let's get straight to it.
00:21We've seen the bill being piloted in the Upper House.
00:24Give us your overview.
00:25Well, the probation bill is really an amendment to an already existing probation of offenders bill or act,
00:33which we have in place since the 50s.
00:36What it does is it allows, in sentencing, it allows for alternative measures to be taken
00:43where perhaps imprisonment may not be the best option,
00:48where the home life or the circumstances surrounding the offense, the offender,
00:53taken into consideration, and steps can be taken to make sure that that person can return to being a valuable
01:01member of society
01:02or a contributing member of society.
01:04So probation itself is a period of monitoring by the probation department,
01:11and the probation department will have guidelines or set rules by the court, set by the judge,
01:17as to what those particular set of requirements are.
01:22So is it at the time of sentencing it is decided whether or not this person qualifies for probation?
01:30Right.
01:30So what happens is, at sentencing, a report is requested from the court, which is a probation officer's report.
01:37That probation officer will go to the home of the convicted person.
01:43They will go to the community where they've worked to ensure that a good picture is,
01:51an independent picture is taken by the probation department.
01:57They will prepare a report.
01:58That report is sent to the court, which will indicate either this person is fit for monitoring by probation or
02:05not.
02:05It will take into account many things apart from the family life.
02:08It will take into account whether the person is remorseful or what their attitude is towards authority in society as
02:16a whole.
02:17And that report is really what determines whether a person is going to be issued with probation rather than a
02:27custodial sentence.
02:28What the bill currently before the parliament is intending to do is to split or to create the ability to
02:36have a hybrid option
02:38where one can be sentenced for a period of time in prison and then given probation or probation on its
02:51own,
02:52which is currently the case.
02:53There's no way to have the sentences split so you save some time in prison and then you qualify for
02:59probation.
03:00Yes, there's no way currently to do that.
03:02Now, I may have missed it, but were there offenses outlined that qualifies a person for probation?
03:12For probation, the offenses were indictable offenses, which the sentence is five years or more.
03:20So it will be based on those circumstances where a convicted person is looking at a period of time,
03:29a significant period of time in custody.
03:31Could you give us examples?
03:32Well, probation can be given in some larceny matters.
03:39It's really up to the discretion of the judge.
03:41But when it comes to it, the offenses that face the judge, very few of them, the sentence is less
03:49than five years.
03:51So we're not talking about just for the satisfaction of the public, we're not talking about murder, firearms, possession, we're
03:58not talking about rape.
03:59But yes, we're not talking about those specific offenses, but we're given the judge permission, some form of discretion.
04:09And the probation department will create a report one way or the other when it comes to offenders, whether they
04:18fit those particular offenses or not.
04:20The idea is that the probation department is creating that report for the benefit of the court in dealing with...
04:30Now, Mr. Mower, I just need to be clear.
04:33If I refer to the bill as was presented to the Senate, subject to subsection 345,
04:39where any case is convicted on indictment of unoffense punishable with imprisonment, which is what you just mentioned,
04:46and the court is of the opinion that having regard to an assessment, the assessment you just referred to,
04:51the character, antecedents, home surroundings, health, mental conditions of the offender,
04:57or to the nature of the offense, or due to any extenuating circumstance,
05:02the court may in lieu of sentencing him to a term of imprisonment make a probation order.
05:08This seems very subjective.
05:11It would be subjective.
05:12Now, the report that is given, that assessment, is made by the probation department.
05:19They've been creating these reports now for the last 70 years.
05:24All of the circumstances mentioned in the bill aren't new.
05:28These are the circumstances that would affect the probation officer's report.
05:33Now, this includes remorse.
05:34It includes the affect of the person.
05:36It includes the offender.
05:40It includes the opinion of the members.
05:42The report will include that?
05:44Yes, it will.
05:44Okay, because I'm not seeing it.
05:46Well, quite often, that's what the report does have.
05:49I mean, in every one of the reports that I have seen, which have been quite a few,
05:53the circumstances surrounding the person's well-being,
05:59how they have been raised, their schooling, their attitude towards the offense,
06:05their impression of what they've been found guilty of,
06:09are all factors which the probation officer takes into consideration.
06:13Now, I just need you to go back a little bit.
06:16I need to be clear.
06:17Yes.
06:17Can persons who have raped, let's say, a minor,
06:21even though they behave well and they have a nice probation report,
06:27can they get probation?
06:29It will be up to the discretion of the judge.
06:31So it is possible.
06:32What about murder?
06:33It is possible.
06:33It will be up to the discretion of the judge.
06:35Currently.
06:36So there are no offenses that are off limits?
06:38Well, what I would say is felony murder is different from capital murder,
06:42where the offense is death.
06:43The only penalty is death.
06:45So when it comes to that specific rubric of the act that you mentioned,
06:49which is, well, the bill that you mentioned,
06:51where it's indictable offense for more than five years,
06:54death doesn't really cover that.
06:56Gotcha.
06:56Right?
06:57But when it comes to felony murder, for instance,
06:59where there are circumstances where there is a fixed term,
07:04then there may be consideration.
07:06Now, it's entirely up to the judge at that point.
07:09And, I mean, I believe in the judge having that discretion.
07:13But when it comes to it, I would say it's highly unlikely
07:18that a judge in such heinous circumstances is going to accede to probation.
07:24Because from the time this entered the public domain,
07:28there was a sense of fear in the public.
07:30On one hand, you see the government trying to bring laws,
07:36stand your ground laws, and so on.
07:37And on the other hand, in the eyes of the public,
07:39some that I have spoken with would have said they're letting the criminals back out
07:43to do more crime.
07:46That is a fair assumption.
07:48And what I will say is that the introduction of acts such as these
07:53when it comes to probation and parole as well, actually,
07:57what it does is it creates or it looks at criminal justice
08:02from a holistic point of view.
08:04Most of the, well, everyone who is going to be impacted
08:07by the probation act or the probation bill
08:09are going to be convicted offenders.
08:12Now, the question is, how do we as a society look at convicted persons?
08:17Is it that we are going to look at them
08:19from a rehabilitative or restorative justice aspect?
08:22Is it that not every person's circumstances are the same,
08:26which is the purpose of the probation officer's report?
08:29Many persons are, well, subject to their environment.
08:34Many persons would have been subject to other forms of stresses
08:38or certain situations that the probation allows
08:42for that discretion by a judge.
08:44And the judge, when making that decision,
08:50is trusted by our nation to be able to provide
08:55that sort of balancing act between the interests of the public
08:58and the restorative aspect of it.
09:00Because when these persons do eventually come out into the society,
09:05we have to be sure that if they are coming out,
09:09that they can be monitored.
09:10That, well, this allows for electronic monitoring as well.
09:12Yes, the law provides for electronic monitoring?
09:15Yes.
09:16For everyone?
09:18No, well, electronic monitoring is subject to a report and a request.
09:21So everyone can request electronic monitoring,
09:26but that is subject to not only the court,
09:28but the entire electronic monitoring system.
09:31They have their own rules as to who applies from who doesn't apply.
09:35And simple things like the accused having diabetes
09:39can restrict somebody from having electronic monitoring.
09:43That's interesting.
09:44So there are things that are put in place for monitoring
09:47that person can report to probation.
09:50Now, Mr. Mawa, we did see in the upper house
09:53this bill was passed without objection.
09:56Everyone voted for the bill.
09:58But do you think as a society, as a country,
10:02TNT is ready for this form of restorative justice, as you called it?
10:06Well, what I would say is that we were ready in the 50s
10:09when the original bill was passed.
10:11The major differences between what is in the original act
10:16and what this amendment does
10:17is it brings into the ability
10:23or it brings into the discretion of the judge
10:25to, in lieu of sentencing,
10:28create a hybrid system where they do serve some time.
10:31Split sentencing as the issue.
10:33Electronic monitoring, et cetera.
10:35But what it does do as well
10:36is it allows for further ability in plea bargaining issues
10:41where probation is an aspect in plea bargaining
10:45that we can start to remove or reduce
10:48the backlog of criminal cases
10:50and overall improve the health of the judicial system.
10:54Removing, I was at the judiciary's conference
11:00on assessing and removing the backlog,
11:02and that's when the Minister of Justice would have come
11:04and indicated this is what our plan is
11:07or their plan is in terms of their legislative agenda.
11:10And the Director of Public Prosecutions welcomed
11:14such a development because it allowed
11:17for plea discussions to take into account probation
11:20as, okay, well, look, if you plead guilty,
11:25you not only will have jail time,
11:28but you'll be on monitoring for five years
11:30or monitoring for three years,
11:31and it creates a house arrest type situation.
11:34It creates a hybrid situation
11:36that can mold somebody
11:40to completely abandon the trial process altogether
11:43and reduce the backlog of criminal cases
11:46in our judicial system.
11:48So it is beneficial,
11:49and I think being passed so quickly in the House
11:55is an indication of that positive intent.
11:58Now, you did mention that this has been in existence
12:00for some 70 years.
12:02Yes.
12:02How often do people get probation?
12:07I must say that it is not that often.
12:10I mean, because the offenses that go before the assizes
12:15are so heinous most of the time,
12:19probation is not often given.
12:22The report is often generated.
12:24So in every, for most of the convictions,
12:28there would be that report.
12:29And what we see now is that that report from probation
12:32assists the court in its sentencing.
12:35But the final line of that report,
12:37which usually says, well,
12:38we are willing to monitor this person,
12:41there have been very few instances
12:43where that has been taken into consideration
12:45and a person has just been let out
12:46based on those extenuating circumstances.
12:50So it's not going to,
12:51I don't think that the floodgates
12:53that are going to be opened.
12:54I think that it just allows for more,
12:58I would say, not inventive,
13:00but more reactive sentencing steps
13:04which take restorative justice in mind.
13:06It'll take me a while to put my hands on it,
13:08but how enforceable are probation conditions
13:11under this bill
13:12and what are the legal consequences
13:15if they are breached?
13:16Well, the legal consequences
13:17of a breach of a probation order
13:19are not only the fine for the breach,
13:23but to be sentenced
13:25than to complete your sentence in prison.
13:31Now, if you're given
13:32an electronic monitoring device
13:35and you, for instance,
13:37go where you're not supposed to go,
13:39you skip a curfew,
13:41you interfere with the device,
13:43that is immediate.
13:44A report is given immediately.
13:47The unit contacts the police.
13:51There's a report generated.
13:52And the complaints will be laid in court
13:54so that we can, you know.
13:56I finally got it.
13:57Are these sufficient?
13:59Participating community service
14:00for a period of time
14:03where the electronic monitoring device
14:06adhere to any curfew imposed by the court,
14:09provide for the purpose of analysis
14:12a non-intimate sample prescribed by the court,
14:15that is to determine whether the offender
14:19has abstained from the consumption
14:20of alcohol or dangerous drugs,
14:22actively participate and cooperate
14:25with the supervision,
14:27maintain steady employment,
14:28actively pursue education,
14:31reside in a geographic area or facility
14:34as ordered by the court,
14:38abstain from communicating directly
14:40or indirectly with any victim, witness
14:42or any person identified,
14:43attend specialized rehabilitative programs,
14:46obscene from owning, possessing
14:47or carrying a firearm,
14:49and comply with the provisions of the court.
14:51Are these sufficient?
14:53I would say yes.
14:54These are in addition to the law
14:56that would have existed.
14:58Right.
14:58So there are certain additions there,
15:01inclusive of the non-intimate sample,
15:04creating a system where you can be ordered
15:07to refrain from alcohol.
15:09So if you're sentenced, you're convicted,
15:13or you plead guilty, so to speak,
15:15to assault or malicious damage,
15:18where there's no, well, sorry,
15:20I would say malicious damage.
15:21There's the aspect of, well,
15:24something was damaged, yes.
15:25You were convicted or you entered a plea of guilty.
15:28But it's quite clear that alcohol was a key element
15:34in the commission of the offense.
15:36As your probation order,
15:38you can be ordered to refrain from alcohol,
15:40to attend to Alcoholics Anonymous
15:42or other rehabilitative programs,
15:45attend to a rehab center,
15:47and prove it by way of test the non-intimate sample.
15:51And if you fail, well, you go to jail.
15:54These are, I would say,
15:56these are steps that we didn't have before
15:59and that no amount of, I would say,
16:05inventive sentencing by a judge
16:07would be able to capture
16:10what the legislation or the intended legislation
16:14would provide for.
16:16So it does assist and it will assist, in my opinion.
16:19But my next question would be,
16:21do we have the supportive system
16:23and staff in place to ensure
16:25that these requirements are adhered
16:28to probation officers, for instance?
16:30Do we have sufficient probation officers?
16:32Do we have sufficient police officers
16:35to keep check, make sure,
16:38go request samples?
16:39Do we have the labs, that kind of thing?
16:42Labs, yes.
16:44Probation officers, I don't know their capacity.
16:49Quite frankly, currently,
16:52they're tasked with not only providing
16:56those reports that I mentioned,
16:57but they're tasked with custody issues
16:59and familial issues,
17:01some social work issues as well,
17:04issues with children.
17:05So we can safely suspect
17:08that there would be a need for more.
17:10Absolutely.
17:10If it is that we're getting more judges,
17:14we're having more plea bargaining exercises,
17:16we're having more probation orders,
17:18we're having more requests for reports,
17:20then I think that the probation department
17:23should be buttressed with enough manpower
17:25to meet the requirements of justice
17:30or meet the requirements of what the law intends.
17:33That's a personnel issue.
17:34That's a human resource issue.
17:38That's far beyond my pay grade.
17:40But I think that when it comes to
17:43creating these programs or these systems,
17:47that even electronic monitoring,
17:50that that unit,
17:51if it is that we don't adequately fund that unit,
17:54if it is we don't adequately staff the unit,
17:56then there are going to be delays.
17:59And delay is what we want to avoid
18:01and we want to remove.
18:02So whether it's the probation department,
18:04electronic monitoring, the police,
18:07if we can't meet our human requirements,
18:09then we won't meet any other.
18:11Just for the viewing public,
18:14could you explain what exactly is a non-intimate sample?
18:17Well, a non-intimate sample
18:20would be, for instance, a sample of breath,
18:23then we can use blood, et cetera, sometimes.
18:27But it's not,
18:30it's a sample that we would use to determine,
18:34for instance, the blood alcohol level
18:36or blood alcohol levels at a particular time
18:40or a drug test that will show the levels
18:43of whatever substance in the system
18:47at a point in time.
18:48So essentially retesting for alcohol and drugs?
18:54Alcohol and drugs, yes.
18:55Okay.
18:56This did come up during the debate,
18:58the rights of the victims.
19:01Does this bill, in your opinion,
19:03adequately protect the rights
19:05of both the accused and victims
19:07or are there gaps that could lead to challenges?
19:10Well, the Act allows for specific conditions,
19:19no contact, no...
19:21It also allows for some form of compensation
19:24to be paid as well.
19:25So for instance, if there's...
19:28If compensation can be paid,
19:30the Act does allow for it
19:32and it increases the amount that can be paid,
19:35albeit not that much.
19:38But it allows for conditions to be made
19:42where if those conditions are breached,
19:44then that person's freedom is forfeit.
19:48Compensation paid to whom?
19:50To victims.
19:51By the...
19:52Yes.
19:53By the offender,
19:54by the convicted person.
19:56The Probation Act does allow for it.
19:59There was a cap,
20:01a very, very small cap
20:02of $150 at a point in time.
20:05It's been increased in the bill.
20:08This bill?
20:08Yes, it has.
20:09I did not come across it.
20:10Do you know what it stands at now?
20:12I believe it's $3,000.
20:13$3,000.
20:14Yes.
20:15Okay.
20:15But of course,
20:16that's not going to be taken into every aspect
20:19and doesn't fall into every situation.
20:24But the intent is there to increase it.
20:27I don't see how that will assist a victim
20:32who's suffering emotionally.
20:34Well, the probation report
20:38and what will also happen
20:40is you probably get a victim impact statement.
20:43The victim impact statement allows for
20:45the victim of crime
20:48before the judge
20:50to quite clearly indicate
20:52what the effect
20:53of that criminal activity was
20:55on their life,
20:57how they suffered,
21:00what happened to them psychologically,
21:03what happened to them
21:03throughout the course of their life
21:04as a result of this.
21:06Quite often now,
21:07you have crime
21:08that would have happened
21:0910, 12, 14, 15 years ago.
21:11And the victim impact statement says,
21:14well, look,
21:15crime has affected me
21:16and this particular instance
21:18of crime has affected me
21:19and has affected my ability
21:21to live normally
21:22within the world
21:23for the last 15 years.
21:24And I'm now coming
21:25to a point of closure.
21:27And it will save what they want
21:28for the convicted person.
21:31And the judge,
21:34upon having that victim impact statement,
21:36not all cases,
21:37not all victims want
21:39to put that statement there,
21:40by the way,
21:40but the judge is able
21:42to make a decision
21:45when it comes to sentencing
21:46about what that impact is.
21:49But there's no rubric
21:51for how all these things
21:52weigh in our victim
21:53could still be affected
21:5510 years down the line
21:56and it doesn't necessarily
21:59have to weigh on the conscience
22:01of the judge
22:01in allowing that offender probation.
22:05Ought it to?
22:06It ought to.
22:08The conditions that are placed
22:11when somebody's being placed
22:12on probation,
22:12that must take into consideration
22:15the victim
22:16and the impact
22:17of the crime
22:18that is being convicted of
22:20on that victim.
22:24Probation is not going
22:25to be available to everybody.
22:27It is not going to be
22:31the floodgates opening
22:33and having persons
22:34just walking free
22:35on criminal activity.
22:37I think that was a fair,
22:38particularly as the minister
22:39would have said
22:41that our prison system
22:43is overflooded,
22:44the courts are overflooded.
22:47So the impression was,
22:49okay, probation law,
22:50parole law,
22:51people outside.
22:52I can't speak to the minister's
22:54frame of mind
22:54when he spoke about
22:55the prison overcrowding issue.
22:57But prison overcrowding,
22:58it has disastrous implications
23:00for not only the prisoner,
23:02the prison officers,
23:03but society as a whole.
23:05Because when persons
23:07are in custody
23:08and in such conditions
23:10that actually have
23:13no benefit at all
23:14to rehabilitative
23:15and restorative justice,
23:17we have people
23:17leaving prison
23:18worse than they entered.
23:20Does this legislation
23:21strike the right balance,
23:23and that's where
23:24your statement led me to,
23:26between rehabilitation
23:27and deterrence?
23:29Deterrence is there
23:30when it comes to sentencing
23:32in terms of years.
23:33I think that having
23:35a contextual ability
23:37and discretion by a judge
23:39to look at all of the factors
23:42involved in the process
23:43and the criminal activity
23:45or the crime
23:46that they have been convicted of
23:48and make a decision
23:49as to the benefit of society.
23:51I think that's what
23:51we hire judges to do.
23:53And I think we should
23:54trust our judges
23:54when it comes to
23:55their decision-making process.
23:57I have two questions
23:58for you before we close.
23:59This is only split sentencing.
24:01So you did mention
24:02the concept of split sentencing,
24:04but from a legal perspective,
24:06does this improve
24:07rehabilitation outcomes,
24:09or does it risk creating
24:10inconsistencies
24:12in how justice is applied?
24:14I think the outcomes
24:16when it comes to probation
24:17would be a consistent
24:21application of restorative measures.
24:24So if someone is sentenced
24:27to eight years in prison
24:28and the probation says,
24:31okay, well,
24:33you have five years in prison,
24:34three years probation,
24:35or even after that,
24:37you have five years in prison
24:38and a probation
24:39and a monitoring period
24:41of probation
24:42for the next eight years,
24:44well, five years,
24:44as the act allows.
24:47that five-year period
24:49would be there
24:50to benefit the convicted person
24:55because they come out
24:57not only just to be monitored,
24:59but the probation department
25:00would allow for persons
25:02to be entering
25:02and utilizing programs
25:05which should benefit them.
25:07So they have to behave well
25:08within the system
25:09before they are allowed out
25:11in any case.
25:12So on the sealing of records,
25:14we also heard
25:15this was a point
25:16during the debate.
25:17This legislation
25:18allows for the sealing
25:19of criminal records
25:20after successful
25:21completion of probation.
25:23How significant is this
25:24in giving offenders
25:25a second chance
25:26and are there any legal risks
25:28when it comes to transparency
25:29and public safety?
25:30Now I heard
25:31some business owners,
25:32they were not very welcoming
25:36of the sealing of records
25:37because they won't know
25:39who they hire.
25:40Anybody could go get
25:41a certificate of character.
25:43How do you feel about this?
25:44Well, I think that
25:44a certificate of character,
25:46if you really want
25:47to speak to character,
25:49I think that a person
25:50who has utilized
25:52all of the functions
25:53of probation,
25:54I'm not talking about
25:55all offenses here,
25:56but there are some offenses
25:58that if one has restored
26:01or rehabilitated themselves
26:03and is entering a world of work
26:05and is entering a world
26:06of a circumstance
26:08where if they were young,
26:10for instance,
26:11a very young person
26:12having their record sealed,
26:14I would actually think
26:19that that is a beneficial thing
26:21to allow for very young persons
26:23to have a second chance at life.
26:25It's very difficult
26:26when everybody requests
26:28a certificate of character
26:29and then they come back
26:30and you have an obscene language
26:31conviction
26:32or a conviction
26:33for resisting arrest
26:36or I wouldn't,
26:38I mean,
26:39all offenses are serious,
26:40but when it comes down to it,
26:42a conviction from 10 years ago
26:44for something like that,
26:45how does that affect
26:46that person's ability
26:48to work today?
26:49And just yes or no,
26:49you believe in second chances?
26:51Absolutely.
26:51Absolutely believe
26:52in second chances.
26:53Of course,
26:54Mr. Mawar
26:54from the Assembly
26:56of Central Legal Practitioners,
26:57let me thank you so much
26:59for joining us here tonight.
27:00We've been taking a closer look
27:02at the probation bill,
27:03what it promises,
27:04what it raises
27:05and what it could mean
27:06for the future of justice in TNT.
27:09Thank you again
27:10for sharing your insight
27:11and thank you,
27:12our guests,
27:13for joining us.
27:13I'm Urvashi Tawari-Rubnarayan
27:15wishing you a good night,
27:16but of course,
27:17there's more news
27:18after the break.
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