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Spymasters.The.Great.Spy.Writers.S01E03
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00:18STELLA RIMINGTON
00:19STELLA RIMINGTON, THE FORMER DIRECTOR GENERAL OF MI5,
00:22IN PARTICULAR FELT THAT JOHN LACARE HAD UNDERMINED THE IMPORTANCE,
00:26THE DIGNITY, AS WELL AS THE GOOD HUMOR OF MI5.
00:29OF ENSURING THE SAFETY OF THE BRITISH STATE.
00:35THE ROOM WAS DIMLY LIT, THE AIR THICK WITH TENSION.
00:40LIZ CARLYLE KNEW SHE WAS ABOUT TO ENTER INTO SOMETHING DANGEROUS,
00:44BUT SHE HAD NO CHOICE.
00:46SHE HAD MADE A DECISION LONG AGO TO SERVE HER COUNTRY, TO PROTECT IT.
00:52BUT NOW, AS SHE SAT ACROSS FROM HER SUPERIOR,
00:55SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT THE STAKES WERE HIGHER THAN SHE HAD EVER IMAGINED.
01:00THE LINE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG WAS NOT ALWAYS CLEAR,
01:05AND IN THE WORLD OF INTELLIGENCE,
01:07LOYALTY WAS A CURRENCY MORE VALUABLE THAN GOLD.
01:14BUT SHE DOES REJECT, AND I THINK INTENTIONALLY SO,
01:19AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE COLD WAR,
01:24AND OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THAT,
01:25WHICH I THINK HAS BEEN HEAVILY COLORED BY LE CARRIE,
01:29AND GIVES WHAT YOU MIGHT SEE AS A MORE POSITIVE VIEW
01:33OF WHAT WAS GOING ON.
01:37A DRY MARTINI, HE SAID.
01:40ONE IN A DEEP CHAMPAGNE GOBLET.
01:43THREE MEASURES OF GORDON'S, ONE OF VODKA,
01:47HALF A MEASURE OF KINA LILE.
01:49SHAKE IT VERY WELL UNTIL IT'S ICE COLD.
01:53THEN ADD A LARGE THIN SLICE OF LEMON PEEL.
01:57GOT IT?
01:59ONE OF THE GREAT ASSETS OF BRITISH INTELLIGENCE AT ITS BEST,
02:05NOT ALL THE TIME, JUST AS ITS BEST,
02:07IT REALIZED IT COULD MAKE USE OF TALENTS
02:11THAT OTHER INTELLIGENCE SERVICES COULD NOT DO.
02:14YOU KNOW, THE BEST KNOWN BRITISH SPY IS A FICTIONAL FIGURE,
02:18WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY IS,
02:19BECAUSE JAMES BOND IS BETTER KNOWN
02:22THAN ANY REAL SPY IN BRITISH HISTORY.
02:26HAPPENS TO BE A GLOBAL BOX OFFICE SUCCESS,
02:31THAT NO OTHER COUNTRY HAS BEEN ABLE TO PRODUCE
02:34SUCH AN EXTRAORDER SPY.
02:38SEVEN, SIX, FIVE...
02:42HANG ON TIME.
02:43I ADMIRE YOUR COURAGE, MS...
02:45TRENCH.
02:46SILVIA TRENCH.
02:48I ADMIRE YOUR LUCK, MR...
02:52BOND.
02:54JAMES BOND.
02:56THE BEST KNOWN SPY OF ALL IS JAMES BOND,
03:00THE CREATION OF IAN FLEMMING.
03:03THE BOND BOOKS BEGAN WITH CASINO ROYAL IN 1953
03:06AND CONTINUED UNTIL 1967.
03:09THERE WERE 13 NOVELS IN ALL.
03:11BUT IT IS THE BOND FILMS THAT HAVE CREATED
03:15THE FULL INTERNATIONAL SCALE OF JAMES BOND
03:18AND HIS FORMIDABLE EXPRESSION, SHAKEN NOT STIRRED.
03:23THE SPECTACULARLY SUCCESSFUL THEORIES OF BOND FILMS BEGAN WITH DOCTOR NO IN 1962
03:30AND HAS NOT YET COME TO AN END.
03:33NO LESS THAN THREE U.S. PRESIDENTS COMMENTED ON JAMES BOND.
03:37WE COULDN'T HAVE WON THE COLD WAR WITHOUT YOU, WAS PRESIDENT CLINTON'S COMMENT
03:42WHEN DECLARING SEAN CONNERY AN HONORARY U.S. CITIZEN.
03:47LINDEN JOHNSON SAID,
03:49IN TWO AND A HALF YEARS OF WORKING WITH THESE MEN I'VE YET TO MEET A 007.
03:53FOR A THIRD U.S. PRESIDENT, JOHN F. KENNEDY, IAN FLEMING WAS DECLARED TO BE HIS FAVORITE WRITER.
04:02KENNEDY'S ENDORSEMENT OF THE RELEASE OF DOCTOR NO AND OF BOND AND OF IAN FLEMING'S BOOKS
04:07DEEPLY TROUBLED THE SOVIET AUTHORITIES.
04:10THEY REGARDED IAN FLEMING'S INFLUENCE ON KENNEDY AND CIA CHIEF ALLEN DULLAS AS THREATENING.
04:20ALL THE GREATEST MEN ARE MANIACS.
04:25THEY ARE POSSESSED BY A MANIA WHICH DRIVES THEM FORWARD TOWARDS THEIR GOAL.
04:33THE GREAT SCIENTISTS, THE PHILOSOPHERS, THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS, ALL MANIACS.
04:41WHAT ELSE BUT A BLIND SINGLENESS OF PURPOSE COULD HAVE GIVEN FOCUS TO THEIR GENIUS?
04:50COULD HAVE KEPT THEM IN THE GROOVE OF PURPOSE?
04:56MANIA IS AS PRICELESS AS GENIUS.
05:04SOMEONE LIKE CIA DIRECTOR ALLAN DULLAS, PERHAPS SURPRISINGLY, PERHAPS COUNTER INTUITIVELY,
05:10WAS A BIG FAN OF IAN FLEMING, WAS A BIG FAN OF JAMES BOND.
05:14THESE PEOPLE LIKE FLEMING, MAYBE THEY CAN GET US OUT OF THIS STALEMATE.
05:18MAYBE ALL OF THIS CRAZY STUFF THAT WE READ ABOUT IN BOND NOVELS,
05:22OR WE SEE ON OUR SCREENS IN JAMES BOND FILMS, MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING TO THAT.
05:26INTELLIGENCE IS NOTHING REALLY OTHER THAN INFORMATION AND KNOWLEDGE.
05:35IT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF BLOWING UP A BUILDING, OR SHOOTING A PRIME MINISTER.
05:41SUCH BOURGEOIR HORSE PLAY IS NOT CONTEMPLATED.
05:44OUR OPERATION MUST BE DELICATE, REFINED, AND AIMED AT THE HEART OF THE INTELLIGENCE APPARAT OF THE WEST.
05:51IT MUST DO GRAVE DAMAGE TO THE ENEMY APPARAT, HIDDEN DAMAGE, WHICH THE PUBLIC WILL HEAR PERHAPS NOTHING OF,
05:59BUT WHICH WILL BE THE SECRET TALK OF GOVERNMENT CIRCLES.
06:02BUT IT MUST ALSO CAUSE A PUBLIC SCANDAL SO DEVASTATING THAT THE WORLD WILL LICK ITS LIPS
06:09AND SNEER AT THE SHAME AND STUPIDITY OF OUR ENEMIES.
06:13NATURALLY, GOVERNMENTS WILL KNOW THAT IT'S A SOVIET CONSPIRITATSIA THAT IS GOOD.
06:20IT WILL BE A PIECE OF HARD POLICY.
06:22AND THE AGENTS AND SPIES OF THE WEST WILL KNOW IT TOO.
06:26AND THEY WILL MARVEL AT OUR CLEVERNESS, AND THEY WILL TREMBLE.
06:36TO CAPTURE SOME OF THE ESSENCE OF IAN FLEMING'S UNAPOLOGETICALLY SMART AND UPPER CLASS WORLD,
06:43A DESCRIPTION WILL BE NEEDED WITH SO MANY POWERFUL, INTENSE VIGNETES AND EXPERIENCES.
06:49A LITERARY DRAWING ROOM IN LONDON, CREATED BY HIS THREE-TIMES MARRIED WIFE, ANNE, IN VICTORIA SQUARE.
06:57ONE THAT LOOKED DOWN ON IAN FLEMING'S GREAT CREATION OF JAMES BOND.
07:02A FLEMING'S OWN LATE LOVE AFFAIR WITH JAMAICAN SOCIALITE BLANCH BLACKWELL,
07:08MOTHER OF CHRIS BLACKWELL, FOUNDER OF IRELAND RECORDS, THE RECORD LABEL OF BOB MARLEY.
07:14HIS WIFE ANNE'S EXTRAORDINARY AND LOVING AFFAIR WITH A BALLROOM DANCING LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY,
07:22HUGH GATE SCHOOL.
07:25THERE'S A STORY ABOUT IAN FLEMING BEING ASKED ABOUT WHO THE CHAP WAS AT THE END OF THE TABLE,
07:31AND HE SAID, HE REPLIED, THAT'S HUGH GATE SCHOOL, THE LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY, AND MY WIFE'S LOVER.
07:36THE MAN IN THE MIRROR IS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD STOP YOU FROM BEING WHAT YOU ARE.
07:42THE THOUGHT FLASHED THROUGH HIS MIND WITH A STARTLING CLARITY.
07:45IN THAT INSTANT, BOND KNEW THAT THE END WAS NEARER THAN HE THOUGHT.
07:58THIS WORLD IS A WORLD WHICH IN JAMAICA INCLUDED NOEL COWARD, ERRIL FLYN, AND SO MANY OTHER PLAYERS IN THE
08:07DECAYING CELEBRITY WORLD OF THE 1950s.
08:09IT WOULD NEED TO INCLUDE THE SUICIDE OF HIS YOUNG, DRUG-ADDICTED, AND EGYPTOLOGIST SON, CASPER.
08:18IAN FLEMING'S OWN MELANCHOLY FUNERAL IN THE SMALL CHURCH AT SEVEN HAMPTON,
08:24ATTENDED BY JUST TWENTY MOURNERS AND HIS SLIGHTLY LATE WIFE, ANNE.
08:31IT WOULD NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE FROWNED-UPON MARRIAGE OF HIS ADMIRED AND GLAMOROUS BROTHER PETER FLEMING TO CELIA
08:39JOHNSON,
08:40SOON TO BE THE STAR OF NOEL COWARD'S AND DAVID LEANS INTO WHICH WE SERVE AND BRIEF ENCOUNTER.
08:46IT WOULD ALSO NEED TO KNOW OF IAN FLEMING'S EXTRAORDINARY AND JUDGMENTAL MOTHER EVE,
08:52THIS WORLD OF INTENSE LUXURY, PRIVATE DESPAIR, AND IN IAN FLEMING'S CASE, AND IN HIS OWN WORDS,
09:01OF A VERY SAD MAN AT THE HEART OF HIS LIFE, ALL TOGETHER MAKING UP AN INTENSE AND POWERFUL WORLD
09:10NOW LONG GONE.
09:13IAN FLEMING'S WORK, HOWEVER, REMAINS AT THE CENTER OF THE MYTHS OF OUR CURRENT CULTURAL WORLD.
09:23IAN FLEMING'S PERSONAL WORLD WAS EXTENDED BY OTHER EVENTS.
09:28IN 1956, PRIME MINISTER ANTHONY EDEN CAME TO RECUPERATE AT IAN FLEMING'S HOME GOLDEN EYE IN JAMAICA,
09:37AFTER THE DISASTER OF SUEZ.
09:43IAN FLEMING HAD A HALF-SISTER.
09:46HIS MOTHER EVE HAD PRETENDED TO ADOPT A CHILD CONCEIVED WITH THE GREAT PAINTER AUGUSTUS JOHN.
09:52AMARILLIS FLEMING BECAME A DISTINGUISHED CHELLIST, SECOND ONLY IN QUALITY TO JACQUELINE DUPRES.
10:00SHE APPEARED IN THE 1969 FILM CONNECTING ROOMS AS THE ARMS AND FINGERS OF BETTY DAVIS.
10:11IAN FLEMING'S ONLY SON, CASPER, WAS NAMED AFTER AUGUSTUS JOHN'S SON, ADMIRAL OF THE FLEET,
10:19SER CASPER JOHN.
10:23BOB MARLEY WAS EVENTUALLY TO BUY GOLDEN EYE.
10:28HE TURNED IT INTO A HOTEL, WHICH IT STILL IS.
10:33AND IT'S INTERESTING AND I THINK IMPORTANT THAT ALL OF HIS BOND NOVELS
10:39WERE WRITTEN OUTSIDE ENGLAND IN A VERY DIFFERENT CONTEXT.
10:44THAT ISOLATION THAT BOND HAS HAS TO DO WITH HIS OWN SENSE OF DISLOCATION
10:51WHICH PERSISTED THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE.
10:54WELL, I CAN SAY IT'S 90% FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, REALLY.
10:59IF I STARTED STICKING TOO CLOSE TO THE TRUE ESPIONAGE WORK OF TODAY,
11:06I SHOULD BE IN TROUBLE WITH THE OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT IN ENGLAND.
11:11HIS LIFE WAS RESTLESS, NOT AN EASY LIFE.
11:16HIS FATHER DIED IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR WHEN HE WAS NINE YEARS OLD.
11:23IT'S NOT THE SAME THING AS AN ABANDONMENT OF THE KIND THAT LE CARRIE EXPERIENCED,
11:29BUT NEVERTHELESS A HUGE LOSS.
11:33HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT, BUT IT WAS NEVER STRAIGHT FORWARD.
11:38WHAT MADE HIM WAS HIS EXPERIENCE OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
11:44HE PUT ON A UNIFORM AND HAD A ROLE IN LIFE.
11:49THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF SADNESS, AND TO SOME EXTENT DISILLUSIONMENT,
11:54IN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH BRITISH NATIONAL IDENTITY.
12:02BOND WAS SUDDENLY AWARE THAT HE WAS LIVING ON THE EDGE OF AN ABYSS.
12:08HE HAD KNOWN THE FEELING MANY TIMES BEFORE, BUT NEVER QUITE SO KEENLY.
12:15HE WAS TRYING TO KILL A MAN WHO WAS TRYING TO KILL HIM.
12:21AND IN DOING SO, HE HAD TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DESOLATE WORLD IN WHICH HE LIVED.
12:32I'VE FOUND THAT ONE MUST TRY AND TEACH PEOPLE THAT THERE'S NO TOP LIMIT TO DISASTER,
12:40THAT SO LONG AS BREATH REMAINS IN YOUR BODY, YOU'VE GOT TO ACCEPT THE MISERIES OF LIFE.
12:47THEY WILL OFTEN SEEM INFINITE, INSUPPORTABLE.
12:52THEY ARE PART OF THE HUMAN CONDITION.
13:03AN ORDINARY BLACK LEATHER CASE WITH 20 ROUNDS OF AMMONITION HERE AND HERE.
13:08THERE'S AN INTERESTING DEBATE AMONG INTELLIGENCE PROFESSIONALS
13:14AS TO WHETHER SOMEONE LIKE JAMES BOND HAS BEEN GOOD OR BAD FOR THE BUSINESS.
13:19FLAT THROWING KNIFE. PRESS THAT BUTTON.
13:22SOME PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE THAT BOND HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY GOOD FOR THE BRITISH INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY.
13:28BUT THEN THERE IS OTHER WAYS TO LOOK AT THIS.
13:30AND SOME INTELLIGENCE PROFESSIONALS WOULD SAY THAT BOND HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY BAD TO THEIR PROFESSION
13:35BECAUSE BOND GIVES THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION,
13:39JET SETTING, SEX, MARTINIS, SAVILRO SUITS, AND THAT ARGUABLY IS NOT A TRUE REFLECTION
13:45OF THE MONOTONY AND THE HUM DRUM THAT ACCOMPANIES A LOT OF INTELLIGENCE WORK.
14:00THANK YOU.
14:03THANK YOU.
14:06THANK YOU.
14:08OKAY.
14:20THANK YOU.
14:24THE GADGETS SEEN IN JAMES BOND BOOKS AND FILMS ARE NOT THE IDIOSYNCRATIC IDEAS OF AN IMAGINATIVE AUTHOR,
14:32BUT ARE BASED ON THE ACTUAL EXTRAORDINARY INVENTIONS CREATED DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR
14:37BY THE REMARKABLE MIND OF CHARLES FRASER SMITH, ONE-TIME MISSIONARY.
14:42WORKING IN THE CLOTHING DEPARTMENT OF THE MINISTRY OF SUPPLY,
14:46HE DEVISED UNTOLD GADGETS DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
14:51FRASER SMITH IS QUITE SIMPLY THE INSPIRATION FOR Q.
14:58MAYBE YOU'VE BEEN DOWN HERE TOO LONG.
15:00THE ULTIMATE IN BRITISH ENGINEERING.
15:04YOU MUST BE JOKING.
15:06AS I LEARNED FROM MY PREDECESSOR BOND, I NEVER JOKE ABOUT MY WORK.
15:11ASTON MARLIN CALL IT THE VANQUISH, WE CALL IT THE VANISH.
15:21OH, VERY GOOD.
15:22ADAPTIVE CAMOUFLAGE, TINY CAMERAS ON ALL SIDES, PROJECT THE IMAGE THEY SEE
15:27ONTO A LIGHT-EMITTING POLYMER SKIN ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE.
15:30YOU SEE, TO THE CASUAL EYE, IT'S AS GOOD AS INVISIBLE.
15:33PLUS ALL THE USUAL REFINEMENTS, EJECTORS, TORPEDOS, TARGET-SEEPING SHOTGUNS
15:38TO SHOOT DOWN MOBILE OBJECTS.
15:40WHY DON'T YOU ACQUENT YOURSELF WITH MANUALS?
15:42YOU'LL BE ABLE TO SHOOT THROUGH THAT IN A COUPLE OF HOURS.
15:51JUST TOOK A FEW SECONDS, Q.
15:54WISH I COULD MAKE YOU VANISH.
15:59FRASER SMITH'S Q GADGETS RANGE FROM MINIATURE CAMERAS TO HAIRBRUSHES CONTAINING A MAP
16:05AND STEAL SHOELACES THAT COULD BE USED FOR GARROTTING THE ENEMY.
16:10AFTER THE WAR, HE BECAME A SUCCESSFUL DAIRY FARMER.
16:20MAGNIFICENT, ISN'T SHE?
16:220-60 IN 3.2 SECONDS.
16:24FULLY BULLETPROOF.
16:26A FEW LITTLE TRICKS UP HER SLEEVE.
16:29IT'S A SHAME, REALLY.
16:30SHE WAS MEANT FOR YOU, BUT SHE'S BEEN REASSIGNED TO 009.
16:35BUT YOU CAN HAVE THIS.
16:42DOES IT DO ANYTHING?
16:44IT TELLS THE TIME.
16:46AI, AS CURRENTLY PUT TOGETHER BY COMPUTER SCIENTISTS,
16:51IS REALLY GOOD AT LOOKING AT A MILLION PHOTOGRAPHES
16:55AND VERY QUICKLY, VERY, VERY QUICKLY, A THINKING FAST ASSIGNMENT,
16:59VERY, VERY QUICKLY, FINDING THE PHOTOGRAPH OF A RUSSIAN BOMBER IN THE SKY.
17:04WHAT AI CAN'T YET DO IS TELL YOU WHERE THAT RUSSIAN BOMBER TOOK OFF FROM,
17:10WHERE IT'S GOING, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL,
17:13WHAT ON EARTH IS IT DOING IN THE SKY?
17:16THAT'S WHERE YOU STILL NEED HUMANS IN THE LOOP.
17:18IAN FLEMING HIMSELF WAS MUCH LESS FASCINATED BY ALL THAT,
17:24AND REALLY QUITE WANTED TO RID HIMSELF OF BOND
17:28AT THE END OF FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE,
17:32WHEN ROSA KLEMP, ONE OF THE MORE SINISTER WOMEN IN SPI FICTION,
17:38POISONS BOND WITH THE BLADE EMBEDDED IN HER SHOE.
17:53ALL SORTS OF ELEMENTS INTO THE BOND PERSONA WERE IMPORTED INTO THE FILM,
18:00WHICH REALLY DON'T EXIST IN THE NOVELS.
18:03IT'S EASY TO FORGET HOW SHORT IAN FLEMING'S LIFE WAS.
18:08HE DIED IN 1964 IN HIS 50S.
18:12HE WAS A VERY HEAVY SMOKER.
18:14HE DRANK HEAVILY.
18:16HE CHANGED.
18:17SO BOND IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DECLINE OF BRITISH POWER
18:23AND CERTAINLY THE DECLINE OF BRITISH CONFIDENCE,
18:27BOND BECOMES AN ALL-CONQUERING HERO.
18:31JAMES BOND IN NO TIME TO DIE
18:34MARKS A REMARKABLE MOMENT IN CULTURAL AND SOCIAL HISTORY.
18:39THE TOUCHING SCENES OF BOND AS FATHER AND LOVING PARTNER
18:43AND HIS DEATH MARK AN INTENSE CHANGE IN THE CULTURAL DESCRIPTION OF HIS PERSONA.
18:49THE RECENT SALE OF THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS
18:52TO THE DEPICTION OF BOND ON FILM TO AMAZON
18:55MAKES FOR AN INTRIGUING PROSPECT
18:57OF WHERE NOW FOR THIS POWERFUL REPRESENTATIVE,
19:01PERHAPS NOT JUST A BRITISH, BUT AN INTERNATIONAL ICON,
19:05REPRESENTING HOW AUDIENCES AND POLITICIANS
19:08DESCRIBE THE GEOPOLITICAL AND PERSONAL WORLDS
19:12OF OUR COLLECTIVE LIVED LIFE.
19:15WE FIND BOND NO LONGER REPRESENTING A NATIONAL IDENTITY.
19:22HE HAS BECOME A FAMILY MAN,
19:26WHICH IS NOT AT ALL PART OF THE CENTRAL BOND IDENTITY.
19:43FAMILY'S HERE?
19:47SHE'S NOT YOURS.
19:51OK, THE BLUE EYES?
19:55SHE'S NOT YOURS.
19:58OK.
19:59HE HAS A FIVE-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER.
20:01HE HAS A RELATIONSHIP, A LOVING RELATIONSHIP,
20:04WITH MADELINE SWAN.
20:06AND HIS DEATH ON SCREEN
20:08IS NOT TO PROTECT ANY KIND OF NATIONAL INTEREST,
20:13THOUGH, AS EVER, HE'S FIGHTING EVIL.
20:16IT IS TO PROTECT HIS DAUGHTER
20:19AND TO PROTECT MADELINE SWAN.
20:23YOU HAVE MADE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING I'VE EVER SEEN.
20:33SHE'S PERFECT.
20:39BECAUSE SHE CAME FROM YOU.
20:46I LOVE YOU.
20:49I LOVE YOU.
20:51I LOVE YOU, TOO.
21:13SHE DOES HAVE YOUR EYES.
21:18I KNOW.
21:34I KNOW.
21:35I KNOW.
21:35I LOVE YOU, TOO.
21:44I LOVE YOU.
21:44I LOVE YOU.
21:46I LOVE YOU.
21:47I LOVE YOU.
21:48IN THE LIVES OF IAN FLEMING AND JOHN LE CARRIE,
21:51THERE EXIST HAUNTINGS OF THE GHOSTS OF FATHERS.
21:56IAN FLEMING'S FATHER ALWAYS EXISTED
22:00as a perfect exemplar to live up to...
22:04..and miss so much.
22:13John le Carre raises the question
22:15of whether it is possible to trust your father.
22:20The father seems to always betray.
22:24This is also the threat
22:26that all spies face in their professional lives.
22:31The state, our collective father, also cannot be trusted.
22:38It cannot support spies in their hours of greatest need.
22:44And may even, through state violence
22:47and the actions of state traitors, kill you.
22:53The argument made by the state
22:55is that intelligence and espionage are essential,
23:00whatever the human cost,
23:01to protect the state and its population.
23:06It is impossible in all this
23:08not to hear the words of Jesus Christ on the cross
23:11during his crucifixion by the Roman state
23:15asking his own father, the living God,
23:18father, why hast thou forsaken me?
23:26The coincidence of the personal and professional
23:29is vivid in the lives of Ian Fleming and John le Carre.
23:37To this can also be added Winston Churchill,
23:41who, even after his great achievements of the Second World War,
23:46was to ask if his much-loved but neglectful father
23:50would be proud of him now.
23:57In Triumph and Tragedy, the final volume of his History of the Second World War,
24:03Churchill wrote,
24:04quote,
24:04I have achieved so much to have achieved nothing in the end.
24:11Perhaps thereby prefiguring the same disappointments
24:16as those felt by Ian Fleming and John le Carre.
24:22You could say that the state is the father figure
24:27and that David's ambivalent attitude towards his employers,
24:32towards the state, towards Britain,
24:37towards the establishment,
24:38reflects his ambivalent feelings about his father.
24:42He knew his father was a monster who ruined people's lives,
24:46who was a man without any principle,
24:48but he was also the only parent in his life,
24:51the only parent figure that he loved.
24:55Self-examination is an activity rarely undertaken by states
25:00and their inhabitants,
25:02particularly, it may be said, in Britain.
25:07How remarkable it is that in Britain,
25:10in the writings of Graham Greene, Ian Fleming and John le Carre,
25:14intelligence and spying contain personal and national self-examination.
25:26In the case of Le Carre,
25:28the outcome becomes increasingly bleak and bitter.
25:35Recently, the Guardian newspaper has suggested
25:38that the increasing interest in spy fiction and films
25:43is because of the distrust of the state by the general population.
25:50I feel, actually, he's, to some extent, still in the room with me.
25:55I still feel his hand on my shoulder.
25:57And I would be happy to see him again.
26:04Not that I ever will.
26:09The most visibly attractive KGB dead litter box in the whole of London
26:15was in the main Catholic Church in Brompton Oratory.
26:19There's Leeser at the main entrance.
26:22And the instructions say,
26:25Look for the side altar,
26:29which contains a reproduction of Michelangelo's Pieta.
26:34This is the dead Christ in his mother's arms.
26:37The original is in St. Peter's in Rome.
26:42Look immediately below the statue for the last words from the cross,
26:48in Latin, consummatum est, it is finished.
26:51Then move along to the left of consummatum est,
26:56and there are two pillars set into the wall.
27:00Go to the second one,
27:02and at the level of the inscription,
27:04put your hand behind it,
27:06and there is the dead letter box.
27:13For intelligence organisations,
27:15the nature of threats to the state
27:17and changes in internal and external terrorism
27:22have presented new risks and new solutions.
27:26Security comes at a price.
27:29The threat of terrorism
27:31imposes restrictions on individual liberty
27:33as the gates to Downing Street mutely remind us.
27:38And there is a price in terms of personal privacy
27:41to allow the authorities to generate the pre-emptive intelligence
27:45on which much of the effort to maintain public security rests.
27:51The price buys the security under whose wings
27:56the benefit of good government can be reaped.
28:01I think the difficulty that intelligence agencies face is that
28:05they cannot really communicate on their success, right?
28:09They cannot say this is exactly the kind of terrorist attacks
28:12that we manage to prevent.
28:14This is where the sort of pervasive conspiratorial mindset
28:19which is ingrained in the public kicks in.
28:23The last two decades were mostly about counter-terrorism.
28:27We've entered a new phase
28:28since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
28:32And what we mean by that is usually the return of great power rivalry,
28:36even though it's always been there.
28:37Not to say that counter-terrorism has completely disappeared,
28:41but of course the whole set of resources
28:43is being relocated to different kind of threats as we speak.
28:48The reasons for joining intelligence services,
28:51particularly British intelligence services,
28:53have changed enormously over the last generation.
28:57Anyone who wishes to become a member of either MI5 or MI6
29:02or other branches of the intelligence sector,
29:05all they've got to do is log in.
29:08But in the old days it was a tap on the shoulder.
29:14The question was never, would you be interested in becoming a spy?
29:18If you applied to the Foreign Office,
29:20you might get a supplementary communication which said,
29:25would you be interested in certain other jobs which may become available?
29:31Well, I'm sure you're both wondering what all this is about.
29:34Did you get any clues in our previous interviews?
29:36No.
29:36Well, I made a guess. Seems to have been wrong.
29:39What was it?
29:40Some sort of commando work, but obviously if Miss Williams is involved.
29:44As a matter of fact, your guess wasn't so far out.
29:47Commando work isn't a bad way of describing it.
29:49I want you both to go to occupied France.
29:52France? How?
29:53By sea or air, only you won't be going in uniform.
29:57What do we do when we get there?
29:58Organise resistance, act as liaison officers with London.
30:02Would we be working together?
30:03I hope so. Miss Williams would be your wireless operator.
30:06I don't need to say the job is difficult and dangerous.
30:09That must be obvious to you both.
30:11Are there any questions before you decide?
30:13What made you pick on us?
30:15It wasn't just haphazard.
30:17We make extensive inquiries before we recruit our people.
30:20Do you think we're the right people for the job?
30:21We're sure of it.
30:23All right. I'm on.
30:25Over the past couple of years, especially since the Russian invasion of Ukraine,
30:29we've seen quite a lot of changes in how states and their intelligence agencies recruit agents abroad.
30:36And we've seen this especially when it comes to Russia.
30:39We've seen that Russia now hires various agents online and uses them to carry out various covert operations,
30:47such as assassinations or sabotage operations, attacking critical infrastructure that is used to deliver various supplies to Ukraine.
30:56We sometimes get access into their phones and we see thousands or tens of thousands, in some cases hundreds of
31:03thousands, text messages that they have exchanged with their Russian handlers.
31:08The Russians have told a number of youths in the UK who were meant to carry out an arson attack
31:15in East London to watch the TV show The Americans.
31:19They tell us what to do and we do it. That's how it works.
31:24There is, since the war in Ukraine, a significant increase in various covert operations and we are now witnessing the
31:32most intense wave of sabotage since World War II.
31:35And we've seen this in the UK, we've seen this in Germany, we've seen this in the Czech Republic, Poland
31:40and a number of other frontier states.
31:43There's clearly been attempts to also blow up cargo planes.
31:54After the wartime success of ULTRA and the breaking of the Enigma code at Bletchley Park,
31:59the history of Allied post-war intelligence events includes intelligence-led actions in Kenya, Malaya, Korea, Operation Gold, Operation Ajax,
32:13intervention in the Iran and the Congo, Guatemala, the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Operation Cyclone in Afghanistan,
32:22missiles in Cuba, Gary Powers and the U-2 incident, Aldrich Ames and Edward Snowden.
32:33Grudgingly, I may be sympathetic to some of Snowden's revelations about, you know, mass surveillance, invasions into our privacy.
32:40Grudgingly, I'm absolutely not sympathetic to the stuff he put in the public domain that was tipping off our enemies.
32:48The post-colonial intelligence services of countries that had been within the British Empire retain close connections with MI6 in
32:57Britain after independence.
32:59More disturbingly, in the sometimes hasty withdrawal, and in the case of India, the scuttle from colonial rule,
33:07British colonial intelligence services instituted and administered harsh and repressive policies in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus,
33:16showing a cruel and vindictive edge to the late imperial use of British and colonial intelligence capability.
33:25Calder Walton goes on to argue, after accessing the recently declassified records,
33:31that despite the Cold War being emphasised in history, fiction and films,
33:36that it's Middle Eastern terrorism with what he says is chilling contemporary relevance that was a far bigger threat to
33:43Britain and the British Empire.
33:46The colonial office in London was nearly spectacularly blown up in 1946 by a female stern gang agent.
33:53Later, the air gun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 people.
34:00The air gun were led by Menachem Begin, who was later to become the Prime Minister of Israel and joint
34:06winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.
34:08After a bomb explosion caused by terrorists on the British headquarters of Jerusalem, one entire corner of the King David
34:14Hotel, a building of seven stories, was razed to the ground.
34:17The stone floors were cut clean away as if they'd been hit by a thousand pound bomb from above.
34:23Housed in the destroyed wing were the greater part of the government offices, where work was in full swing at
34:28the time of the outrage.
34:29The British response in Kenya, Palestine, Malaya, Aden and Cyprus often included rendition and torture.
34:39Withdrawal from empire was partially overseen by MI5 throughout the British colonial withdrawal.
34:46MI5 was closely involved in assessing risks and outcomes.
34:51The official narrative of a peaceful change from empire to Commonwealth
34:55is challenged by the evidence being revealed by the documents slowly being released from MI5 and the Joint Intelligence Committee
35:04files.
35:05As there remain many documents still to be declassified, there are likely to be further revelations that are unlikely to
35:13be welcomed.
35:18At the same time as colonial powers were withdrawing from Africa, Russia through the KGB was becoming increasingly influential.
35:27Though after the fall of the Soviet Union, much of this influence was lost.
35:32It is now China that has both soft and hard power through its one belt, one road economic development strategy.
35:41The British government changed policy about secrecy when it became clear that conspiracy theories about intelligence
35:48were sounding less conspiratorial than the government would like them to be.
35:54Historians like Christopher Andrew and others were allowed access to documents previously kept secret.
35:59One of the reasons why intelligence services and intelligence agencies have used fiction to communicate on their activities is also
36:12to establish not only the legitimacy of secrecy,
36:16but also to say that this is not what we're doing, but actually they're adding another layer of secrecy and
36:23protecting what should remain secret.
36:27The Middle East was always an area of dramatic concern and intervention.
36:33The Israeli intelligence organization Mossad was continuously effective at Entebbe, in the destruction of Iran's nuclear reactor,
36:44in Operation Wrath of God, and most recently with widespread pinpoint targeting and assassination.
36:51Israel's foreign intelligence service, the Mossad, has a long history in conducting assassinations.
36:56Assassinations have been a part of their statecraft toolkit, if you will.
37:02But we are seeing them use more technology and more sophisticated technology to carry these out in a way where
37:09perhaps the officers who are carrying these operations out do not have to be in the theater.
37:14That's true.
37:14I think the nature of Israel's predicament that is surrounded by, it perceives as hostile states, there are individuals within
37:22Israel as well that are seen to pose a threat,
37:25and that naturally then shapes their perception and understanding of intelligence work.
37:31There was still a steep learning curve there when it came to Al-Qaeda, ISIS and religiously motivated, or should
37:39I say politically religiously motivated groups.
37:43We had a head start because obviously we had to deal with the IRA in Northern Ireland in the 70s
37:48and 80s, so the counter-terrorism mission was not alien to us.
37:58Northern Ireland remains a largely hidden area of British intelligence.
38:03Recent revelations surrounding the double agent steak knife further confirm that British intelligence success in infiltrating the IRA may have
38:13led to the IRA's decision to in effect jointly create or even force the peace process.
38:23MI6 officers using back channels, using the techniques of covert diplomacy to lay the foundations for the Good Friday Agreement
38:30that Blair and Clinton and Mo Moulin put together.
38:33The great powers of the world should avoid putting imperialistic pressure on innocent and weak nations like Iran, Egypt, Tunis,
38:43Algeria, Morocco, Palestine and others, and prevent the world from catching fire and disintegrating.
38:49One counter to the arguments that spy fiction and films are overly dramatic and emphasise the sensational would be provided
38:58by the extraordinary events surrounding the removal from office of the Prime Minister of Iran in 1953.
39:04The British and American governments, through their secret services, MI6 and the CIA, organised a coup which led to the
39:14overthrow of the democratically elected and popular Prime Minister Mossadegh.
39:18It was led by Kermit Roosevelt, the grandson of Theodore Roosevelt, the grandson of Theodore Roosevelt.
39:25The cause was that the British government had lost its majority financial interest in the Iranian oil company through its
39:32nationalisation by Mossadegh.
39:36The problem about secrets is they need to remain secret, which is why you can't share them with others unless
39:44you're British, American, Canadian, Australian or New Zealand, because deriving from the Second World War, you can't possibly fight a
39:55war unless you share with your allies what you're up to.
40:02International big business has made revolutions before now to safeguard its interests.
40:08At one time, it made them in the name of liberty, equality and fraternity.
40:15Now, with socialism to fight, it makes them in the name of law and order and sound finance.
40:24Assassination.
40:26Assassination.
40:26If an assassination is going to be good for business, then there will be an assassination.
40:55The Cold War was never as simple as good against evil.
40:59It was about men in suits, darkened corridors and decisions made with a glance, a gesture or a word that
41:08could kill or save thousands.
41:11The truth was a commodity, a weapon that the right person could use, but no one ever really told it.
41:20Not in the business of espionage anyway.
41:23But our sharing extended to intelligence as well.
41:28But because we have an intelligence sharing arrangement, often known as the Five Eyes, we can do so.
41:38Being able to discuss what you deduce about the way the world is going, as being one of only five
41:46countries that can do so, gives us enormous advantage over all the others.
41:52But the next question must always be, what are we missing?
41:57So, a sense of your own limitations.
42:01Without that, you cannot be a good intelligence officer.
42:05We need to acknowledge in 2026 and the deeper we go into the 21st century, arguably the biggest collectors and
42:14producers of intelligence are not state intelligence agencies.
42:18They are, in fact, corporates.
42:21They are the Amazons, the Metas, the Facebooks, the Googles.
42:28A senior and veteran intelligence officer told historian Peter Hennessy about the dark side of intelligence, spies and spy masters.
42:37Hennessy describes this in his book, The Secret State, as combining, amongst others, the Cold War, the experience of submariners
42:47on Polaris submarines, posts in Eastern Europe during the Cold War, and clustering around the worlds of intelligence and nuclear
42:55weapons, the first and last lines of the country's defense.
43:01So, when you talk to intelligence professionals about what's the sort of day-to-day reality of working in an
43:11intelligence agency, they often talk about what they call the burden of secrecy.
43:16You cannot talk about what you do with your wife or with your husband when you go home or with
43:23your children.
43:26Social anthropologists regard these as special enclaves.
43:31These are areas of exceptional pressure.
43:34They are in worlds apart.
43:36This is the defense of the realm.
43:45This extended after the Cold War into special situations.
43:49Dealing with Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
43:53And dealing with countries that do not sign up to the international human rights norms is everyday business for us
44:00now.
44:01These states do not have the equivalent of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.
44:07We are always going to have to make judgments that, in retrospect, will be contentious within our own courts of
44:14jurisdiction.
44:16Internal terrorist investigations now face the same dark side issues.
44:49Yeah, we are always going to have to make judgments that, in retrospect, have all different protections.
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