🎙️ Is the shift to clean energy really fair — or are the costs falling on the wrong people? In this deep dive episode of Tangelic Talks, hosts Victoria Cornelio and Andres Tamez unpack one of the most debated questions in climate conversations today:
👉 Who is truly paying for the energy transition? As governments and corporations push toward net zero, the financial and social burden doesn’t fall evenly. From rising energy costs to public subsidies and global inequality, this episode explores the hidden realities behind the transition to a low-carbon future.
Rather than focusing only on solutions, this conversation takes a step back to examine the systems behind climate finance — and whether they are creating a fair path forward or reinforcing existing inequalities.
In This Episode, We Explore:
⚡ Why households and taxpayers often bear the largest share of transition costs
🌍 The gap between the idea of a “just transition” and real-world outcomes
💸 Climate finance flows — where the trillions are actually going
🏭 The role of big tech, AI, and rising energy demand in shaping the transition
🌱 Why developing countries face higher risks with fewer resources
⚖️ Policy challenges, overregulation, and uneven global climate action
🔋 Renewable energy vs fossil fuels — progress, trade-offs, and limitations
🔍 The Big Question: Is the energy transition truly just — or are we redistributing costs to those least responsible for the climate crisis?
📊 Why This Matters: With trillions being invested globally, the energy transition is not just about technology — it’s about economics, equity, and trust.
This episode challenges mainstream narratives and asks a critical question: Are we solving the climate crisis — or shifting the burden?
💬 Join the Conversation: Do you think the energy transition is fair? Who should be paying for it — governments, corporations, or consumers?
Share your thoughts below 👇
🌱 Support Our Mission: If you believe in storytelling, clean energy access, and climate justice — support our work: TangelicLife.org
🔖 #ClimateFinance #EnergyTransition #NetZero #JustTransition #ClimateJustice #CleanEnergy #Sustainability #ClimatePolicy #EnergyCrisis #RenewableEnergy #GlobalInequality #ClimateEconomics #GreenTransition #ClimateAction #ESG #FutureOfEnergy #Decarbonization #ClimateDebate #SustainableFuture #TangelicTalks
📊 energy transition, climate finance, net zero transition, who pays for energy transition, just transition, clean energy costs, climate economics, renewable energy transition, climate policy debate, global climate finance, energy crisis analysis, decarbonization strategy, future of energy, climate justice, sustainable finance, energy transition explained, public cost of net zero, climate investment trends, energy policy discussion, green transition debate, climate finance explained, ESG and energy transition, global energy shift, climate debate podcast, Tangelic Talks
👉 Who is truly paying for the energy transition? As governments and corporations push toward net zero, the financial and social burden doesn’t fall evenly. From rising energy costs to public subsidies and global inequality, this episode explores the hidden realities behind the transition to a low-carbon future.
Rather than focusing only on solutions, this conversation takes a step back to examine the systems behind climate finance — and whether they are creating a fair path forward or reinforcing existing inequalities.
In This Episode, We Explore:
⚡ Why households and taxpayers often bear the largest share of transition costs
🌍 The gap between the idea of a “just transition” and real-world outcomes
💸 Climate finance flows — where the trillions are actually going
🏭 The role of big tech, AI, and rising energy demand in shaping the transition
🌱 Why developing countries face higher risks with fewer resources
⚖️ Policy challenges, overregulation, and uneven global climate action
🔋 Renewable energy vs fossil fuels — progress, trade-offs, and limitations
🔍 The Big Question: Is the energy transition truly just — or are we redistributing costs to those least responsible for the climate crisis?
📊 Why This Matters: With trillions being invested globally, the energy transition is not just about technology — it’s about economics, equity, and trust.
This episode challenges mainstream narratives and asks a critical question: Are we solving the climate crisis — or shifting the burden?
💬 Join the Conversation: Do you think the energy transition is fair? Who should be paying for it — governments, corporations, or consumers?
Share your thoughts below 👇
🌱 Support Our Mission: If you believe in storytelling, clean energy access, and climate justice — support our work: TangelicLife.org
🔖 #ClimateFinance #EnergyTransition #NetZero #JustTransition #ClimateJustice #CleanEnergy #Sustainability #ClimatePolicy #EnergyCrisis #RenewableEnergy #GlobalInequality #ClimateEconomics #GreenTransition #ClimateAction #ESG #FutureOfEnergy #Decarbonization #ClimateDebate #SustainableFuture #TangelicTalks
📊 energy transition, climate finance, net zero transition, who pays for energy transition, just transition, clean energy costs, climate economics, renewable energy transition, climate policy debate, global climate finance, energy crisis analysis, decarbonization strategy, future of energy, climate justice, sustainable finance, energy transition explained, public cost of net zero, climate investment trends, energy policy discussion, green transition debate, climate finance explained, ESG and energy transition, global energy shift, climate debate podcast, Tangelic Talks
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LearningTranscript
00:00A lot of public policy experts will tell you, and you can read this in the OECD,
00:04that the framing of climate policies without clear distributional protections erodes public
00:10support. You also have to sort of convince the community that you're doing something for them. So
00:17buying that land to produce ethanol, that doesn't just happen in a silo of like,
00:24I have money, I'm going to buy land. Because one of the reasons those permits are so hot to get
00:27is because you have to justify that you're doing a return for the community in one way or another,
00:33whether that's, you know, a social benefit, a financial benefit, something. So it's our
00:39deep dive episode. I love deep dive episodes because we get to be nerdy. And this is one
00:44of the joys of working in this sector. There's so much to explore.
00:59Welcome to Tangelic Talks, your go-to podcast from Tangelic, where we dive into the vibrant world of
01:05clean energy, development, sustainability, and climate change in Africa. We bring you inspiring
01:11stories, insightful discussions, and groundbreaking innovations from the continent making waves in the
01:16global community. Tune in and join the conversation toward a brighter, greener future. Let's get started.
01:25Hello, welcome to Tangelic Talks, a podcast at the intersection of energy equity and empowerment
01:32with your hosts, Andres Tomes, and the wonderful Victoria Cornel. And so what are we going to be
01:40talking about today? My gosh, welcome guys. So it's our deep dive episode. I love deep dive episodes
01:47because we get to be nerdy. And this is one of the joys of working in this sector. There's so
01:52much
01:53to explore. But due to this season being about finance and tech and all those good things that
02:01are supposed to be helping us get to the just transition, we're focused on who pays the price
02:05of the transition. We really want to find some answers, maybe, but we're mostly curious. We're
02:14very curious about who's paying for the transition, who's being affected by it. Are these innovations
02:20and new finance schemes actually equipped to do what they say? Are people embracing them? There's,
02:28we have a lot of questions and we basically just want to get into it with you guys. And
02:33we encourage all of you to keep an open mind. Feel free to comment if you have answers to the
02:38things we're asking, or you disagree with us, if you want to come on the pod to explain something
02:42we've missed. But yeah, let's kick it off. Who pays the price of the transition?
02:49Now that's, now that you asked the question. Have you got a short list in mind?
02:57A lot of the times it's the taxpayer. You can really see that no matter what, it's usually
03:05going to be the taxpayer. I do feel like there have been certain very passionate
03:14groups or companies that are willing to pay the price. But they're pretty few and far between,
03:21I think. Definitely. And if we do, if they do, right? And it's like, okay, just transition or
03:28transition, right? If like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people, there's a, there are a
03:34lot of companies that are willing to do it for their own gain, just because like, they've hit a
03:38limit of like, for example, power that the grid could supply them. I feel, you know, I think, uh,
03:44like all the, all the big tech right now is looking into alternatives because they're basically,
03:48they've basically siphoned all the power away from every, like every drop of power that's available.
03:53Yeah. Um, uh, but I don't think that's part of the just transition. It is part of the transition.
03:58It is the silver lining of the current big, big tech situation, silver lining. Um, but other,
04:06other than that, right? Like, I feel like the earth pays in a way, right? I feel the earth pays.
04:13I also
04:13feel like the, I, I, I've mentioned my, my, this grievance multiple times, right? It's like,
04:20I think like we, the price is tripled, quadrupled, quintupled because of the, the span of the
04:27transition. Like they've, they've set these like esoteric sort of nonsense, arbitrary goals for when,
04:36when they want certain amounts, when it's just like, okay, no, no, no, this is, this is, this is
04:46madness. Like it's costing. It's like, oh, well, if we transition, it would cost this much. It's like,
04:52it costs almost that much to not transition with your current plans. Yeah. No. Well,
04:57a lot of it is also, it's framed as just transition because it's supposed to be something that has
05:03justice at its core, right? So if you look at the United Nations website and a lot of the
05:09researchers we're talking about, we're going to have on the Q and A, so you can find that on
05:13angeliclife.org, but the United Nations, their finance and climate justice department,
05:18they talk about climate finance and just transition highlighting that those least responsible
05:28face the greatest barriers to adapt without sufficient resources. So this is the justice
05:33issue that climate finance and innovation and tech are supposed to be addressing, right? So if we're
05:39going to say the taxpayer is that person that is contributing less to the damage and is paying more
05:46to fix the damage, that's kind of where you can see a bit of a tension there. But a lot
05:52of times it
05:53depends on who you ask. Like if you ask governments, if you ask households, corporations, different
05:58social classes of communities, everyone's going to think differently. And maybe that's why it's such
06:04a hard conversation because it's very based on lived experience. You know what I mean? And what a
06:11community or a group prioritizes as, well, I'm willing to do this trade-off because of X, Y, or Z.
06:17Sure. Sure. I think, um, is there even a trade-off at this point right now? Would you say that
06:25like,
06:25is there, is there even any benefit like price, like energy prices are going up like, and we don't,
06:33we're not really seeing like a big push towards renewables? Well, again, I think that's where the,
06:38what each group finds important lies in, you know? So if for example, you are a household that is very
06:46worried about the cost of living crisis, the fact that you're not seeing your energy bills go down
06:52and that you're seeing that everything's getting more expensive is probably a huge concern as it
06:58should be, right? You're going under, but if you are someone that is relatively comfortable and what
07:04you really care about is the countryside and nature and things looking pretty because you love nature and
07:10you love going out on a hike and being in the rivers and all this stuff, then you might think
07:15it's worth it
07:16because if we do this thing, nature is going to be better and we're protecting the environment
07:21and you're maybe involved in conservation efforts, that sort of stuff, right? So that's why it's so
07:26hard to sort of talk about just transition as this monolith of the population that is transitioning
07:32because we each have our own priorities and what we're willing to trade off and for what.
07:38Now, I do think there are perspectives that are, that I think it's okay to just throw them out.
07:44Throw them out.
07:45Are you ready to out some people?
07:49Is this the, is this the episode?
07:53It might be. Like, I do, I do think there are like certain perspectives that are just like,
07:59just, well, they have to do with like, if, if your perspective is completely, let's say,
08:08I don't want to say self-serving, right? Cause we're all sort of self-serving in a way. Right. But
08:13like, it's not, it's not about, it's not about the transition at all. Okay. It's about what,
08:19what extent to gain from the transition, right? Like a lot of, a lot of like, uh, a lot of,
08:24uh,
08:25people who are paying the price, it's because they're going to get a return, right? Like, like families
08:30aren't, yes, they're going to be benefited by the transition. Nature is going to be benefited by the
08:34transition, but they're not getting like a, an actual financial return. They're not investing
08:38in it. Yeah. Right. So I think that people who have like, I think that's a conflict of interest.
08:43I think their concerns about it at this level, right? Yeah. At this level, not their concerns
08:48as a whole, right? Because they're important. They need their funding transition, but they're,
08:53but at a, at a human level of who should we pay attention to right now? I think they're like,
08:59not the highest priority. Fair enough. I mean, it's interesting that you say that,
09:06like you're not necessarily investing money, but you're doing, you know, like you're maybe doing
09:10sacrifices or you're accepting certain changes in regulation for things to happen. Because when we
09:16say who pays for the transition, the price or the cost isn't just monetary, right? There's the social,
09:23the political cost. It's not just dollars, but like the wellbeing or even your own
09:29interest, there are things you might not be able to do anymore for the quote unquote,
09:33greater good, or because they've now been made more expensive. So you can't do them
09:38because they're bad for the environment and you know, each to their own there.
09:43But there's a really interesting study from McKinsey that estimates that around 9.2 trillion,
09:53trillion dollars annually are invested for infrastructure for net zero pathways.
10:00Well, like people don't care about net zero anymore, but there's a lot of investment going
10:06into net zero and it could go back to your point of, well, there's no other way to do it.
10:11It's a self
10:12interest investment to keep the, you know, the sector going. But on the other side of that,
10:20does that matter? It means we're at least investing on the quote unquote, important thing,
10:27which is pushing that zero as close as we can, if possible, if ever.
10:32Sure. Well, that only, that only really works if like we're expanding towards net zero. Um, and,
10:41and the usage is expanding to the point where actually we're just going to need
10:45the, the renewable stuff and the old stuff at the same time.
10:48Exactly.
10:49And that's sort of the way energy usage is expanding at the moment.
10:52Mm-hmm.
10:53Um, I also feel like, I also feel like one of the big things, and this might,
10:58this might, this is just me spitballing, right? But like I was watching,
11:01I was watching a video on, um, on, it basically had to do with, with solar panels.
11:07Yeah.
11:09And, and it, it, it's mostly, it's mostly based, uh, around the United States. But like,
11:14one of the things that, that happens in the United States is there is, there, there's very strict
11:21zoning, right? And a lot of the zoning has to do with financial incentives over like actually
11:27protecting any environmental stuff or whatever, right? So it's about keeping property values up
11:31or, or doing things that, um, like corn farming for ethanol, right? Not for food, for like, uh,
11:39for ethanol, which is like the additive they use on gasoline. Um, and it's like, and, and, um,
11:48the, the host was talking about how like he lives in a rural area and they have this solar farm,
11:54right? And it, it does wonders for everyone. And one of the reasons like they, they don't,
12:00they don't have the capacity to build more of them is because there's being a lot of the space
12:05that's actually, uh, zoned for use is being used to make this horrible additive for its space. It's,
12:13it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an archaic and inefficient way of, of, uh, of making fuel, I think,
12:18more efficient. Uh, I don't, I actually don't understand the science behind why ethanol is
12:23necessary. I just know that it's a really dumb way to produce ethanol to use so much space and
12:28so much water. Um, it's very resource intensive and it could easily be replaced by anything else
12:37like that could, that could be in that area, especially when it's so hard to get permits to
12:42do anything with land, um, at all. And these are just like, these are just fields. These are just
12:50fields and they're not being used for anything really productive, right? Like if people will
12:55argue that it's productive, but I will, I would argue otherwise. Um, cause I like being a contrarian.
13:02I'm not saying I'm right, but it's, it's true. Cause a lot of these things, I think there's a lot
13:12of
13:12things where it's just like, you also have to sort of convince the community that you're doing
13:18something for them. So buying that land to do, to produce ethanol, that doesn't just happen in a
13:25silo of like, I have money. I'm going to buy land because one of the reasons this permits are so
13:29hot
13:30to get is because you have to justify that you're doing a return for the community in one way or
13:36another,
13:36whether that's, you know, a social benefit, a financial benefit, something, you know, the
13:41community has to get something, or at least that's supposedly how it works because there's, um, another
13:47study from a German industry analysis consultancy. This is on Reuters and they warn that the transition
13:54strategy in the European union could impose a 4.8 to 5.5 trillion euros. And this burden is on
14:04businesses and households without policy coordination. So this is why it's so important
14:09for it to be to some extent in the political agenda, because without policy coordination,
14:15we're just dumping money down the drain. Yeah. You know, that's, that's a lot. All the numbers
14:22I found are trillion. I don't know. Here's one of my gripes too. Right. And this is, I think,
14:32I think I'm, I'm think I'm justified in this. I think, why is it that we're putting so many
14:37resources towards the transition, whether just or not, I guess, you know, and renewables are becoming
14:45like, for example, in Germany, right? Like they, they've sort of moved away from renewables.
14:50Yeah. They've shut down a ton of their, their nuclear facilities, um, which used to produce most of
14:56the energy in their, in their country. Right. France has stopped. I believe they, they stopped.
15:01I don't know if they've restarted, but for a period, they stopped, uh, they stopped working
15:05on bringing more nuclear reactors, uh, to be active. Right. So it's just like, it's like, okay,
15:11like this is obvious. This was obviously working really well. Right. Why are we stopping it?
15:19And why are we framing it as like a furthering of the just transition? Like, I just don't get it.
15:26I don't get, I don't get where the money is going to see. This is the problem for me. It's
15:29like,
15:30okay, we're spending money on the just transition and people are paying for it. And you know what,
15:34maybe it's a price we need to pay, but is it even happening is my, is my big, big issue.
15:41For
15:41example, like, for example, you have like, um, uh, it's a, I believe it's, you know, it's a hot topic
15:47right now, but Greenland, right? Like green, who would have thought Greenland was going to be a
15:52hot topic? No, right. This is exactly what the, this is exactly what they tried to avoid by it.
15:59I mean, uh, well, actually, is it Greenland or Iceland? That's a hot topic right now. It's
16:04Greenland. It's Greenland. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, well that, you know, it is a, it is a false,
16:11it's always been a false flag. It's, you know, Greenland isn't real. I'm just kidding.
16:16Yeah. Um, it's not green. Uh, that's, it's a lie. Isn't that like a true thing? Like
16:23the, I don't know. I remember hearing that it was supposed to be Viking myth, like trying
16:27to distract people from going. And that's why Iceland from Iceland and Greenland is Greenland.
16:32Yeah. Trying to get people to go to Greenland. Yeah. That's what I heard growing up. I've never
16:36verified it. So, so anyway, like one of the things that they have there is like, they have
16:42good geothermal, they have good, uh, they have a good amount of, of, uh, of renewables in different
16:47ways. Right. And it's like, and because their population is so low, it's, it's fine. Yeah.
16:53Right. And you have, you have a lot of instances where, um, so-called third world countries are
17:00really beating the West to the punch because they just, you know, build out the infrastructure.
17:08Who would have thunk it? So just build it. Talking. So just make it because it's, it's costing us a
17:13lot
17:13and it's costing us a lot to not build anything. How much, how much money do you have to spend
17:18on
17:18lip service? Not trillions. Let me tell you that much. Okay. You can maybe, maybe millions.
17:25I'll give you a billion, but trillions? Yeah. No, it's too much. And that's the thing. I don't know
17:31if it's a messaging issue. I don't know if it's just something like we can't agree what a just
17:38transition looks like. So we're just transitioning with justice in the background or justice at the
17:44front to sort of push forward the transition while we figure out what the just part means.
17:50You know what I mean? I don't know how it comes together. There is a big debate on consumer
17:55vulnerabilities. So again, the just transition isn't just for everybody. There's a big question
18:02of, so for example, in the UK, a big conversation is as more people transition into electrical,
18:09the gas networks still have to keep running until everyone's transitioned. But that means that the
18:15people left on the gas networks are going to have to pay more to keep it going.
18:21There's natural gas. Sorry? Natural gas. And okay, it's being replaced by electric. Now,
18:32how much of the UK's energy comes from renewables? I'm not sure. But we do have loads of wind farms,
18:40but I don't know what percentage they would take on. I'm going to look it up and I'm going to
18:45add it on
18:46the blog because that's a good question. But you do have pushback on the renewable energy side
18:54because the UK is a small country or a small area of land. England is small. I'll give you that.
19:01Wales isn't very big. Scotland isn't that big. Northern Ireland, not a bit of a speck, you know?
19:07So we're asking people, communities to accept that in their backyards,
19:15we're going to be putting up more wind turbines or that we're going to be modifying the countryside
19:21to fit solar, you know? Again, we don't have sprawling land like the US does. So this is
19:28literally in someone's backyard, in someone's town, in someone's area. And that's a lot. So again,
19:34a messaging issue. Are we getting the whole nation to agree on the just transition because
19:38you do it for your fellow citizen? It's a hard sell in the middle of a cost of living crisis,
19:45where the energy bills are still one of the top priorities for household spending.
19:50And it seems like a good amount of the UK's energy does come from renewables, I believe,
19:55slightly over, I believe, almost 50%, almost 50%, coming from mostly a mix of wind and nuclear.
20:04And I believe wind is a huge part of that. Yeah, wind's the main one. Yeah. And we're developing
20:10new reactors or new nuclear plants and stuff. So it's there. But then again, a lot of the investment
20:18is government, which is taxpayer money, or it's private that will then be given back.
20:26Right, right. It's hard to know, because our energy is a national.
20:29Mm. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Neither is water. Which is like, well, you know,
20:35depending on the country, that could be either good or bad. Like, it really, really does depend
20:39on the country. In the United States, it even depends on the state, whether or not that's good or bad.
20:43Yeah. Yeah. So it's a hard one. Because then again, now you've got,
20:48if we're using the UK as the example, you've got a country that has a national plan that has to
20:54be
20:54enacted by third parties that then have to talk to the community who voted for an MP to represent
21:00them in this national plan or in this strategy that is also supposed to be local and regional.
21:05There's all these policy tensions. So I want to think the just transition is just a lot more
21:10complicated than just, well, we're doing it for the people because who is people and why is people?
21:20It's a hard one. It's a hard one. And with fossil fuel prices, those are also up. So is that
21:29the
21:29sell? It's like, hey, renewable is cheaper. You do hear a lot of pushback because of the
21:36initial investment into renewables and like, oh, you'll see it back. But again, who's paying for
21:42that initial investment? And are they the ones that are going to see it back? Yeah. You know,
21:47that's why it's an investment. Yeah. Well, I think they will see it back. Like the thing is,
21:55like the initial investment, for example, for, for solar, right. It's never been better. Like,
22:01like solar, like buying solar panels in bulk has gotten surprisingly cheap. Yeah.
22:06Um, and the initial investment, for example, for nuclear, right. Cause like, I like solar and
22:12nuclear. I'm, I, I like wind. I'm, I'm a little bit more iffy on it. Um, but like the initial
22:19investment for nuclear is like the bulk is the initial investment. The rest of it is kind of just
22:23like operations costs. Like it's not even, um, what, what, meanwhile, solar has a little bit more
22:29cost when it comes to maintenance. Right. Upkeep.
22:31Uh, but it doesn't really have an operations cost. So like, it's just sort of there now,
22:38um, unless it's a farm, but like it's, it's, it can be a little bit complicated, but you know,
22:44like we've, we've gotten to the point where the technology is absolutely there. Um, smaller
22:49countries like the, like the UK, uh, a lot of African nations, um, have successfully moved
22:57a lot of their, of their, of their capacity. Yeah. Kenny is a shining example of that.
23:03Oh yeah. Yeah. And it, it shouldn't, it, it, I feel like it's way more complicated than it has to
23:11be in that turn. In that sense, I respect the UK's like 2030 goal for like having like, what is
23:16it?
23:1695% low carbon. Well, a bunch of buzzwords that, that like, it could be, it could be 95%
23:22renewable,
23:23or it could just mean read the manifesto to find out what 95% low carbon. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And
23:30again, we don't have agreed jargon on this. It's just jargon. Exactly. We don't have a great metrics.
23:35We don't have agreed, not global nationally. You know, you can, you know what it means if you work
23:42in the space, but globally low carbon here might mean low carbon somewhere else. And we're all starting
23:48from different places. So again, maybe it's more a question of is the price is the initial price too
23:55high or is it fair? Because if you are starting with, I don't know, a lot of climate goals are
24:02reflecting a reduction in carbon from the 1990s. Others are more like, well, we were, we weren't
24:09really doing much in the 1990s. So yeah, that's easy. We'll do it in no time. You know what I
24:15mean?
24:16So it's a starting point fair. And then do we have to move the goalposts or the price is fair?
24:23I don't
24:23know which, where we adjust for fairness here, but fairness is so subjective. It's, it's, it's hard.
24:30Well, here's, here's the thing, right? And we had it, we had in our, in our, in our thing for
24:34this
24:34episode, right? Like one of the things we wanted to ask was, what do you mean by cost? Yeah. Right.
24:40And
24:41one of the, one of the options is development, but I don't like, yes, development is costly.
24:48Yeah. Like for the most part, the technologies we need for a transition are here and the money is
24:57there. Yeah. It's floating around. It's going into the pit. It's going into the, the, the great money
25:02pit that, that we burn, that we throw money into. Yeah. Infinite. Yeah. Just throw it. Yeah. When
25:10we could just throw it at just like, just put it one-to-one into nuclear panels. Why did they
25:15have
25:15to go like the inefficiencies of these systems is the, is the thing that really irks me because like,
25:22like, okay, why do you, why are you spending triple the amount to not do it?
25:27Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've lost it. We've lost the plot a little bit.
25:32And there's like, there's a lot of issues with regulations. I remember like, for example,
25:36one of the things that stifled, for example, nuclear in the United States is that there was a big push
25:40towards it. Right. Um, then the three mile Island thing happened. And at some point there was new
25:48regulation on it. Every single, like the, the regulation on it was changing daily. So, so fat, like,
25:55like, like nuclear facilities that were going up had to literally day by day adjust everything.
26:03Yeah. Rough. Um, based on the new, uh, the new regulation that was coming in. Right. And we're
26:09paying the price and that, that was happening in like the eighties nineties and we're paying the
26:14price for that now. Right. Because if they would have, especially in the United States where it's,
26:19where like net zero is so much more far off than other places. Um, like it, it really seems like
26:30this was, this was like, uh, especially with like Americans be like a lot of like the big money in
26:37America being like, you can't stifle innovation. You can't stifle this. You guys have stifled all the
26:41good things. Now you're like, you're like, you don't stifle all the things that like aren't helping
26:47anyone. No, it's very selective. The stifling innovation thing. Very, very selective. And
26:55it, it, it, I feel conflicted. It also like, it is the, is the transit, the, the, whether the
27:02transition is just or not depends on where you are. Yeah. Like if we're moving, if you are getting
27:08rid of, uh, natural gas and replacing with electricity, it makes a huge difference whether
27:14you're like in Nevada, uh, or, or like, uh, let's say Las Vegas, right? Because they have
27:20a lot of, uh, they have a lot of energy that comes from, from hydroelectric, right? Or like,
27:27for example, um, anywhere that's powered by, by, um, by the Canadian dams, right? Or if you're
27:34out in the middle of nowhere, like it's very different. Or if you're in a big city that doesn't
27:40have access to them, right? It's just simply. That's very different. One place, it might
27:46actually be convenient to keep burning natural gas. Um, because if you move over to electric,
27:52then, then it's just, it's just going to be an added burden onto the grid that it probably
27:57can't take at this moment right now, right now. And that's part of the, just part of the
28:02transition, right? You have to take into account, how is this going to affect people? And you have
28:07to take it into account. Well, that's why it's a transition. You know, we can't just switch
28:12everything off today and roll out tomorrow. That being said, transition is a great placeholder for
28:19someday, at some point, you know, we can't overhaul the systems right away, but we should be slowly
28:28moving the, moving towards the goalposts, not flip-flopping back and forth, which is kind of
28:34one when it's hard to, to track. Here in, here in Mexico, right? Like I just gave it up. I've
28:40just
28:40given up on the conversation entirely. It's such a nonsense, such a, the, the absolute nonsense that
28:48goes on here when it comes to the transition is just, which is why, like, even though I'm frustrated
28:53with the United States, because they're sort of the worst on this, um, not in Mexico because
29:00Mexico is for me, right? Of the countries I know of, I know there are a lot of places that
29:04could be
29:05worse, but like, it's such a, it's such a thing. That's a discussion that's not happening.
29:10Right. Priority that doesn't exist. And a priority that's been stifled. Like the, the government has
29:16actively, well, the, the, the electric grid, because like the thing with Mexico is it's like
29:22national and not national at the same time. The oil is national, not national energy is national,
29:28but there are a lot of like private incentives in it. Um, and we have regulated out competition
29:36for the, the government has regulated out competition. Um, and one of the things that
29:42was happening is they were putting a lot of wind, uh, wind, right. And the government decided, okay,
29:48but you can only make a certain amount on it. Um, this was a while ago. Hopefully they've changed
29:54their, their perspective on it. But one of the things that, that caused a lot of people to give
29:59up on the project as a whole, uh, private, uh, private endeavors on it that were really beneficial.
30:06Um, especially because like, if for example, you built it on somebody's land from what I,
30:10from what I've heard, like from, from like people that, that like know the people, like if they,
30:17if you agree to have it built on your land, they'd be like, you don't, don't worry about paying
30:21electricity. Right. Yeah. You just don't worry about it. Um, this is built, this is built on
30:26your land. And I think they might've even gotten a cup, but then the government came in and they
30:30were like, oh, you guys are, you guys are charging too, not charging too little for electricity,
30:35but you're making too much, taking too much away from us. Yeah. And so they were like,
30:41you can only make a certain amount and it's, it's absolutely ridiculous. Um, the things that
30:45happen here in Mexico. Um, so, so despite, despite how bad the United States is, I actually have
30:51hope they can do something. Yeah. Um, unlike here where it's just like locked in, in, in place
30:57because the government is such an obtuse beast. Well, this is the thing again, right? We keep
31:04talking about the need for policy, but maybe not all policies are good, you know? And the development
31:10of policy is very bureaucratic and it's very slow. So you might have a goal for 2030, which is
31:15crazily enough in four years and your policy could be stuck in development hell for two.
31:23And then it passes with two years left on your goals. And now you have to revise your goals
31:28because you didn't get the policy you need to see what I mean. So it's very bureaucratic. However,
31:32there are areas where it's, we need at least mitigation measures. So going back to your point
31:38on efficiency, the money isn't being used efficiently, but that's what AI is for babes.
31:45AI is supposed to be efficiency. That's why we don't need human error anymore. Just put an AI to do
31:51it.
31:52And a lot of the just transition is upskilling workers, right? We need people if they're going
31:59to transition from one sector that we're trying to eliminate basically into one that we're making
32:08the sphere of the future. Then we need to bring people along. You need to prepare people.
32:15But who's supposed to do that? Is it the government? Is it the companies are investing? Is it just a
32:22national curriculum overhaul that is giving out apprenticeships? Like, how does that work? But
32:28the issue with the lag we're having is while we figure out who's supposed to do that,
32:34there's other interests that are preparing automation to do it. So people, unemployment is
32:41coming from both angles. Yeah. Yeah. Unemployment is coming from, from every single side to just,
32:50just eat you up. Like I think, uh, they, um, I believe the, the amount of people that have lost
32:57their jobs is equivalent to that of the great recession. So, um, yeah, so like this is this,
33:05it's record breaking the amount of people that are losing their jobs right now. And it's also like
33:09record breaking how many like, uh, companies are regretting laying people off, um, because the
33:17transition and you know, we've, uh, we've sort of reached the architectural limit of the capabilities
33:24of AI, like nobody wants to say it out loud. Like the, the way large language models work,
33:29um, we've reached that point where every single new update is going to be much more resource and
33:36intensive than the last, because we're reaching the limits of the, the, the, the architect, the,
33:43the limits of the architecture of the technology. Right. And so there's either,
33:48either going to have to be a completely new type of AI developed, or you can just feed it way
33:55more
33:56power, just, just pump more power into it, which is not efficient. And it also probably won't work
34:01from the experts I've heard speak on it. Um, so like, and, and at this point, like, I believe a
34:09study
34:09from MIT is like 95% of the, uh, of the work that is assigned to AI in, in real
34:18world scenarios.
34:19Um, the, the AI produces an unsatisfactory result 95% of the time. Um, and so we, they,
34:29it was obviously like a big, like, um, companies got really excited because they were going to be able
34:35to lay people off and laid everybody. And now we have like, uh, the, one of the newer,
34:41the newer, some newer models are like multiple models debating with each other to find out the
34:48best solution. Right. Which is good to keep the models in check. Right. But it also means that you're
34:55running, you're running the same, the same prompts. So you're generating like triple, quadruple,
35:04the tokens you would be. So you're using quadruple, the energy you would be just to get mild increases
35:11in, in the effectiveness of the technology. And so we've, we've sort of lost the plot with, uh,
35:20with tech, tech, tech, tech as a way to mitigate, um,
35:26tech software as a way to, to mitigate like the, the, or to facilitate the transition
35:32has sort of stopped being in the consciousness, like just like net zeros completely stopped being
35:37in the consciousness. We just stopped talking about it. Nobody cares. Yeah. It's, um, it's really
35:42sad. And well, I think it's all of that without like thinking about how you're going to integrate
35:51people back into this, you know what I mean? Cause if we're going to say, this is one of the
35:58things I
35:58feel not enough people sort of address. When we say you need to upskill people, that's not necessarily
36:06that, oh, now we have to have a bunch of engineers who can operate wind farms and solar farms. It's
36:13that
36:13what are the jobs of the future? If we're going to create, say an upgrade of the grid so we
36:20can feed AI
36:20more and that's the future we're heading for. Well, I guess we're going to need more engineers,
36:26prepare the people that are going to do that great grid upgrade. Do you know what I mean?
36:31Or prepare the people that are going to now be working in tech because we have all this data and
36:36all of this, you know, big language models that are being rolled out. Like what is the thing that
36:41is going to give people a livelihood down the line? Cause the government isn't just going to start
36:46giving money. So people still have to work. What are they going to work on?
36:52Well, I feel like there are a couple of scenarios here, right? One of them is that a lot of
36:59the
36:59people that are doing this have a utopian view of everything. They're like, eventually it has to make
37:05money, which is not true. It doesn't eventually have to make money. You can just keep losing money
37:09forever. Yeah. Um, awesome. Right. Probably. Uh, but, um, uh, the other option. So like they're,
37:19they're banging on this being like the, the thing that finally ushers in universal basic income.
37:25Right. Um, so that, that, that's, that's one faction, right? Like the, the utopian faction.
37:32And then you have the other factions that are like, okay, it's over. One of them is like,
37:38it's over. So everybody, uh, this is not going to pan out either. This is going either AI itself
37:47is going to destroy us or it's just going to crumble and you're going to have to pay for, uh,
37:51picking up the pieces. Right. Cause right now, like the markets are held up, held up by AI.
37:56Mm. Um, so you can't stop the hype unless you, because other than AI, like you're, you're basically
38:04in a recession without AI. You're basically in a recession right now, which I think is where all
38:09the like really forced and really obnoxious AI optimism is coming from. If we admit that there's
38:16a problem, the market will crash, which is the big fault of the current system with the markets.
38:22Right. Um, and if the market crashes, um, then everything is stagnant, right? Like forget
38:29transition. Like we're, we're, we're going to have problems. Like nobody's going to be employed.
38:36Yeah. No, we sort of lost each scenario. Yes. And, but also at the same time, right? Like
38:43a recession is a sign of things not going, not going in the right direction. And I would say,
38:52you know, am I willing to have a recession right now? I'm almost 30, right? So that my kids'
39:00generations have a, are left with a better world. Right. Because one of the, one of the things that
39:06will definitely happen, like definitely happens during a depression, right? Or recession or whatever
39:13is. And one of the things that'll happen this time is all of the power that was consolidated
39:17in the, that was sort of consolidated during COVID. Right. Um, as, as non gigantic publicly traded
39:27companies, uh, were the only ones that were allowed to, um, operate. Right. Um, we'll probably reverse.
39:35Like, um, as these companies have to, have to downscale, um, I believe like make, and this is a
39:44perhaps thing, right? Because at the end of the day, if you have no, and, and I think this is
39:50the,
39:50this is the problem with the, with the system, the United States in particular, it has of depending
39:55on you, you have to care about the markets because all of your savings are there. Yeah.
40:00You, you, you're not, it's not in gold, uh, which is something real. It's in like, like I said before
40:08the podcast, I was like the, the, the market and everybody's like retirement are being held up by
40:14Sam Altman's hopes and dreams and prayers. Okay. And like, that's really bad. That's a, that's a really,
40:24really bad situation to be in. Yeah. It's at least not great. It might be worth it to just take
40:31the
40:31hit, uh, so that the countries sort, so the nations can rebuild, so the markets can rebuild.
40:36But that goes back to the question, who's taking the hit and is everyone going to feel the hit
40:43equally? Because that's a big conversation in climate change. We're, we're all experiencing
40:47climate change. Just some of us get good weather in England while some people are burning to death.
40:53Do you know what I mean? It's, it's a hard one. The trade-offs never look the same for everybody,
40:58which is why the just in just transition does so much heavy lifting. Cause it's supposed to be that
41:04the transition isn't going to take over. It's just, we're leaving nobody behind, which is why we're
41:10moving so slowly. That's the messaging, right? We're moving at the pace that society can keep up with
41:16supposedly. Well, you know, I, I'd like to believe that, but I, I don't agree because I feel
41:23like the, the way you do this is okay. And what are the, what is the thing we can do
41:28first?
41:29Yeah. What is, what can we prioritize that will make the, that will leave the biggest impact and
41:36will leave us primed to actually start transitioning out of like a natural gas, for example, right?
41:41Because in Europe, um, a lot of governments basically told you to freeze. Uh, like they told you
41:48not my fault freeze for the winter for all I care. We have these projects that we're working on.
41:53They're like net, they're like environmental projects and like, uh, we're not going to let
41:57you use natural gas. We're not going to let you do this. Um, we're not going to let you, if
42:02you have
42:02a cattle, uh, if you have a cattle ranch, we're not going to let you just do your job anymore
42:08because
42:08you know, they produce so much, uh, so much emissions and stuff. Yeah. And so what you get
42:18is, is just a sort of tyranny, a blind tyranny and, uh, you make people have to burn wood.
42:28Right. And, uh, which is not only does it have emissions, but it's toxic. Yeah. So that's terrible
42:35for help. Terrible for help. Yeah. Terrible for help. And we could just focus. We could just
42:43lock in and say, okay, let's start with just the grid for let's for let's leave everything
42:50else on the wayside. Let's start with just the grid. Right. You would think it's that easy,
42:54Andres, but we've talked about COP before on this podcast. Um, and I hate to be the bearer
43:01of incredibly unsatisfying news, but in 2024, it was predicted that poorer nations and poor,
43:11the definition of poor by the United nations doesn't change that often. Um, in the, um,
43:18environmental program, it used to be nations that hadn't, uh, reached certain level of development.
43:25Right. So poor is a semantics issue if you want to have it. Right. But you can check the
43:31tangelicalife.org for the blog and you can read this news in 2024. It was predicted that poorer
43:39nations require roughly one. Here comes again, trillion dollars per year by 2030. Here we are
43:47again at 2030 for adaptation and mitigation. And that was supposed to pass in COP 29, which was in
43:562025. No, that was a 2024 one last year in COP 30. We saw that it didn't happen. This is
44:07what a lot of
44:08people refer to as the adaptation, uh, Lawson Adaptation Fund, which is still not funded and
44:15people are still not pitching in. Um, you'll probably have heard some of our guests this season talk about
44:21that paying into the fund is accepting that you've done something wrong. So it leaves people open for
44:27getting sued or countries being taken for more because they're admitting that they've done something
44:33wrong because you're paying into the funds. But $1 trillion per year for mitigation and adaptation to
44:40these nations that if we go back to who's paying for the transition are the ones that have done the
44:46least
44:47damage and need the most help because they're the ones that are going to be hit the worst by climate
44:52change as we know. So that's not very just, is it? No. It's also like, I really, I also feel
45:02like it's
45:03very unfair to the larger nations, like the, like, uh, the North, right? All in all, like the, the actual
45:11damage, like big stuff has been like oil leaks, but like at a global scale, the ones that have
45:20done some of the most work to mitigate and to reforest and to, and to all of this and have
45:27done a
45:28really, really effective job have been, have been Europe and the United States and then Canada,
45:33right? Like if you, if you look at satellite images of four, like, uh, vegetation and forests and stuff like
45:40that, like they've done an amazing job with just recovery. Yeah. And they've, they,
45:49they've tried their best to move on to not in recent history, but historically they tried their
45:55best to move on to, to better, to better forms of, of energy production. I don't know what bugs in
46:01their brain right now. It's, it's the, it's the, the GDP bug is in people's brains right now. So that's
46:06the only thing that they could think of and, uh, you know, fighting esoteric enemies, like,
46:11like, uh, mental enemies, like China and Russia. Yeah. Um, but other than like, if you, if you really
46:18look at it, I feel like, I do feel like it's unfair to be for that specifically to be framed
46:25as a,
46:26as a, as a, as a justice issue when it should be a humanitarian issue, because
46:33one, it, one, it leaves you open to those lawsuits, right? It, it, it admits fault in a way,
46:39right? And you don't want that because what, like, if you, if what you want is the transition
46:43and that's the priority, then you're going to make that the priority. Even if you leave behind,
46:48leave to the side, some, some other like ideological priority that you might have. Right. Because at the
46:55end of the day that the it's, it's just more important to it's, it's bigger than us. Yeah. Um,
47:01to save, to save, to save the earth is bigger than our petty squabbles. I feel, um, I might be
47:08wrong. Maybe we're really, really, you know, maybe our, our ideologies are the most important thing.
47:14Maybe. I don't think so though. That's not my opinion. And I, I don't think that the way it was
47:23framed lent itself to, to any action on anybody's part. Uh, and I think that as someone who, whose
47:34priority is to, whose priority is to just get it, get it over with. Someone just do it.
47:44Yeah. Somebody just do it. Like, and then, and they're like, like we've said, like small,
47:51poor nations have done it. They need, they didn't need a trillion to do it. Why? Because it's gotten
47:57cheaper. It's gotten cheaper, like a big part of the cost, uh, to, to nuclear. And the reason it takes
48:05double the time to set up a reactor in the United States than in, for example, China are insane
48:11regulations, right? But then if we don't have regulation, everything else, we get another AI
48:17scenario. Well, it's not about not having, how much is enough red tape? You know, there's exactly,
48:27there's such a thing as over-regulation, right? That's, that's what's, that's what killed like the
48:33fishing industries in, in the, in the Northern UK, right? Over-regulation on the part of the EU,
48:39which I think is, is part of the justified anger that the UK had for, uh, the European Union.
48:45And because that, that was a big industry, that was an enormous industry for them. Uh, it's the
48:50livelihood and like the history of a lot of people. Yeah. And, and it was taken away from them.
48:56Right. And, uh, and like you said, no, nobody upscaled them. Nobody upscaled them.
49:02Like nobody, nobody decided that we're going to help these people. We're going to move them on.
49:06It was just like, you can't do this anymore. And they basically like a lot of them just sort of
49:12got on benefits and stayed that way. Like they, and that's unfair to them. That's unfair. Uh,
49:19it was extremely unfair. This is, this, this is the, the lack of foresight that we live in.
49:25Like we are, there needs to be a reasonable amount of regulation. Yeah. But you can't agree
49:33on what that looks like is a lot of the issue. Yes. So for example, policy, if we go back
49:39to
49:39narrative and framing and you know, you're saying it's not been framed correctly, a lot of public
49:46policy experts will tell you, and you can read this in the OECD, that the framing of climate policies
49:52without clear distributional protections erodes public support. Basically what that means is
49:57if I'm asking you to stop using your petrol powered car and I'm not telling you why, or that I'm
50:06going
50:06to help you get an EV or that we're going to pedestrianize the road. So you don't even need
50:10a car anymore or transfer, public transport is going to get better. If I'm not giving you an alternative to
50:16stop using the thing, you're not going to trust me because you're not just going to do it out of
50:20the goodness of your heart. Because again, the hit is quite huge if a car is a necessity for your
50:27everyday life, but the distributional protection comes in of it's not just me that has to do it.
50:33We all are doing this and therefore you are equipping a community with a new way of transport
50:39that is more sustainable, that it's greener, that is cheaper. Because again, you can't ask the one
50:46individual to do it. And that community engagement takes a while for you to understand what are
50:52people willing to trade off and what do they actually need. A lot of governments think that
50:57giving levies or waivers or just chunks of money is enough. And most people just want to live a life
51:06that is dignified. And that may be through, yeah, here's some money because you let us build this in
51:13in your land. Or it might be that, okay, you can build in my land, but like,
51:17can we stop with the oil leaks, please? So I can drink my water. There needs to be a promise
51:24attached to the trade-off you're asking people to take for the just transition. Because again,
51:28someone's paying for the transition and they should see, they should reap some of the rewards
51:35of this sacrifice you've asked them to do.
51:38I, I, but I, you know, I, I feel like that's another like lack of focus thing. Like, like,
51:45I understand the need, like, I, I understand, like, for example, in, in the United States,
51:50you have like, you, you, you buy an EV and they give you a certain amount of cash back. The
51:53government
51:54will give you like a refund or something. But like,
52:01the grid is more of a priority. I feel like I really don't, I really don't see this as like
52:07the, I, I don't feel like the transition from like gas car to EV is that, I think that's,
52:14that's for when we have access to clean cheap energy. Why are we focusing on right now?
52:23I guess it makes people money, Andres. Because it makes people money. Again,
52:30the just transition isn't just for people. It's for businesses and for governments and to keep the
52:35economy and the markets going. So EVs are a great example of how it appeases every stakeholder in the
52:43transition to an extent, right? But it's supposed to be one of those things that is a great microcosm of
52:51what the transition can look like when it benefits everybody. Because if you are a lay person who
52:57gets an EV, you get incentives from the government. You can drive through certain zones that you
53:03before were fines through. If you used your diesel, it's supposed to be more effective, cooler cars,
53:08the government pushes their net zero and they're like, yay, we've cut emissions. And the person that
53:15sold you the EV made money. Everybody wins. Except for the people that can't afford to buy it. And
53:23that's where we go back to the thing. But EVs are that great example of if it worked,
53:31this is how you do the transition, you know? Sure.
53:35Sure. It hasn't worked yet. So we don't know.
53:39And I feel like it's like a framing thing. Like you have like, you've had so many articles. I
53:43really don't like the state of journalism because like you had so many articles, for example,
53:48covering like Bill Gates is super like hydrogen powered yacht, right? And hydrogen power is really
53:57cool. I love it. It's awesome. It's also a big luxury. Like it's a, it's a luxury power from,
54:03again, hydrogen is going to be big. It's going to be bigger than like the, the classic EVs with
54:10batteries. In my opinion, in my personal opinion, just because I like the technology, I like it more
54:15than battery. What? There's this amazing meme. Sorry. It makes no sense. Keep going.
54:23No, I didn't hear you. You cut off. You froze. So I didn't hear what you said.
54:27No, there's a meme that says.
54:32Oh, sure. Sure. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right.
54:35Please. No, no, no.
54:39The, the, the problem with it is a lot of people covered that the hydrogen yacht is very sustainable
54:44because it's on hydrogen, but hydrogen is actually a really, really inefficient form of energy storage
54:52because you lose, just like with the electric grid, you lose energy as it moves through the grid,
55:00right? It's, it's not 100% efficient. Think of it like that, but way worse. And a lot of the
55:07hydrogen
55:07produced is, is made using natural gas. So there's just like emissions tied to it anyway.
55:13Yeah. Right. And so like, it's not a technology that you can say right now is a green technology.
55:20Why? Because it depends on, on you getting the hydrogen from somewhere where the energy is 100%
55:29clean. Yeah.
55:30If they have facilities that are generating it, but from what I understand, most of the facilities
55:35generating hydrogen are, are, um, gas based. So it's not even a thing. Right. And the, the problem
55:44is it's because hydrogen, if you want to make hydrogen from the electric grid, it is, it, it,
55:53I think it's like 60%, like it's 60% efficient, right? Which is low, way lower than just electricity
56:01from any source. Um, and it's a really cool technology, but it's technology of the future
56:08where we're post this, whatever this is. Yeah. Once all energy is green and we have surplus energy
56:16that we're like, okay, what do we do with this energy? Okay. We can store some in batteries and
56:20we can turn some into hydrogen and this and that that's awesome. That'll be great. But as it stands
56:25now, it's just not it. It's just, it's just not. And that's another thing. A lot of technologies are
56:30hailed as solutions that could work if X, Y, and Z. And it's like, we don't, we don't have time
56:38for X,
56:38Y, and Z. We need the thing that works now. But that mentality of we need what works now leads
56:43to
56:44all the issues we've been talking about because we're very reactive and we want to get it now, now, now.
56:50So, as you can see, we're very torn. There's a lot to discuss in the Just Transition debate and who
56:58pays the prize, who benefits from it as well. That's another conversation that would be interesting.
57:04But leave us your comments, your thoughts. You can read and find our resources at Tangellilife.org.
57:11Um, we're compiling there all the things that we mentioned. So if you disagree with us,
57:18just quote what you disagree with so we know what you're referring to. And stay tuned for the next
57:25episode. Andres, any final words? Ah, you know, hopefully things will get better. Yay. Bye. Lukewarm yay.
57:41Yay. Thank you, everybody. Bye.
57:50Let's talk power. Let's talk change. For rural lights to brighter days. Equity rising, voices strong.
57:59We're building tomorrow where we all belong. Tangela talks, energy, equity, pride,
58:07empowering the world side by side. A spark becomes a fire, a vision that's true. Together we rise,
58:15it starts with you.
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