Big Tech's Climate Blind Spot: How AI Is Supercharging Fossil Fuel Production w/ Holly Alpine | S04E10 - video Dailymotion

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Big Tech's Climate Blind Spot: How AI Is Supercharging Fossil Fuel Production w/ Holly Alpine | S04E10  🎙️ Everyone is talking about how much energy AI uses. Almost no one is talking about what AI is being used to do.  In this episode of Tangelic Talks, hosts Victoria Cornelio and Andres Tamez sit down with Holly Alpine — co-founder of the Enabled Emissions campaign and former Microsoft sustainability leader — to expose one of the most consequential and least-discussed dynamics in climate action today.  Holly spent over a decade inside Microsoft, built one of the company's largest sustainability programs, and spent four years trying to change it from within. She left in 2024 because internal pressure alone was never going to be enough.  This conversation pulls back the curtain on what she found — and what it cost her to say it out loud.  In This Episode, We Explore: 🤖 What "Enabled Emissions" means — and why it's the climate conversation we're not having 🛢️ How AI pinpoints underground oil deposits with 90% more accuracy — unlocking projects that were previously impossible 💸 How AI is cutting fossil fuel extraction costs by up to 10% and reducing drill counts by a third 🏢 Why Holly left Microsoft and co-founded this campaign — and what she couldn't unsee 📊 Why Microsoft's #1 ESG ranking is built on a fundamentally broken methodology 🧊 Why data centers are just the tip of the iceberg of AI's full climate impact 🔒 The four-year internal coalition that pushed Microsoft from the inside — and why it still wasn't enough 🏛️ How the EU AI Act could become the most important climate policy no one is talking about 🌱 What responsible guardrails for AI and fossil fuels could actually look like in practice  🔹 About Our Guest: Holly Alpine is the co-founder of the Enabled Emissions campaign. Before leaving in 2024, she spent over a decade at Microsoft building a 10,000+ member employee sustainability network and founding the Data Center Community Environmental Sustainability Program. She now works full time to expose how AI is being used to expand fossil fuel production — and to build the policy and public pressure needed to change that.  💬 Join the Conversation: Did you know AI was being used to accelerate fossil fuel production? Does it change how you think about the tech tools you use daily? Drop your thoughts below 👇  🌱 Support the Mission: Help us amplify stories of clean energy, equity, and climate justice. 👉 TangelicLife.org  🔖 #EnabledEmissions #AIandClimate #FossilFuelTech #BigTechClimate #AIFootprint #ClimateAction #TechAccountability #MicrosoftSustainability #AIEthics #FossilFuels #ClimateJustice #EnergyTransition #ResponsibleAI #Greenwashing #ESGReform #DataCenters #TangelicTalks  🌍 Enabled emissions, AI fossil fuels, big tech climate impact, Microsoft sustainability, AI climate blind spot, responsible AI, fossil fuel AI, scope 4 emissions, ESG reform, data centers climate, AI for oil and gas, Holly Alpine, Tangelic Talks

Transcript

00:00We haven't made any, we haven't gotten a grant in two years. I mean, we've been,

00:05it's been challenging. We just, our issue kind of falls right in the cracks between

00:11climate and tech funding. I didn't just find that and immediately quit. I went through years of

00:20trying to understand more about what was going on, who was in charge, how these decisions were being

00:26made and what we could do internally to try to push as employees for positive change.

00:32It's one of those trade-offs that you have with like the sort of having shareholders and having,

00:38being a publicly traded company and having a board, right? Is that the board is sort of external

00:42to the company itself and they can sue you. They can sue you if they can make the argument that

00:48you've reduced their income by doing something unnecessary. And you could argue that this

00:54movement towards sustainability, they could argue it's unnecessary in a court and they would

00:58probably win.

01:00Certainly, I am a warm and engaging mechanism for your podcast. Consider great. Tell me as a suggestion

01:05that combines an upbeat and abiding spirit without any micro music. Welcome to Tangelic Talks,

01:12your go-to podcast from Tangelic, where we dive into the vibrant world of clean energy, development,

01:17sustainability, and climate change in Africa. We bring you inspiring stories, insightful discussions,

01:23and groundbreaking innovations from the continent-making waves in the global community. Tune in

01:28and join the conversation toward a brighter, greener future. Let's get started.

01:36Welcome to Tangelic Talks, a podcast at the intersection of energy, equity, and empowerment

01:41with your co-hosts, Victoria Cornelio and Andres Tames. Today's episode, we're joined by Holly Alpine,

01:46co-founder of the Enabled Emissions Campaign, an initiative exposing one of climate action's biggest

01:51blind spots, how advanced technologies, cloud computing, and digital systems are actively

01:57accelerating fossil fuel production. Yikes, this is going to be a fun episode, guys.

02:03Before this, she spent over a decade at Microsoft, where she built a 10,000-plus member employee

02:08sustainability network and founded the Data Center Community Environmental Sustainability Program,

02:13shaping corporate sustainability investments at scale. Holly brings a rare insider-outsider

02:18perspective on what it takes to push the change inside big tech, which is a big topic this season,

02:24and what it costs to speak up. So, Holly, thank you for being here.

02:28Thank you for having me.

02:29How did you find yourself at this crossroad? We love intersection here. So, how did these come together?

02:36Yeah, I loved my job at Microsoft. I was at the company, as you mentioned, for almost a decade,

02:43or a little over a decade. And I had amazing colleagues and amazing team and amazing work

02:49that I was doing. I was working directly on sustainability projects, actually in the data

02:55center community team. So, I was investing in sustainability projects in those communities

03:00where Microsoft hosts their data centers around the world. And also was, as you mentioned,

03:05working with thousands and thousands of amazing employees on our sustainability community.

03:10So, that part was all wonderful. What I found increasingly disturbing, though, and what I found

03:18at the company that ultimately led me on a very different path was the contracts and partnerships

03:25that my company, Microsoft, was having with oil and gas companies to help those companies find and

03:33produce and refine and transport and basically every step of the value chain, more oil and gas,

03:39more quickly and more cheaply. And that really went against everything that I believed in the company

03:47to be as a sustainability leader, and everything that my fellow employees stood for as well. So,

03:53that led me on a very different journey from there.

03:57Yeah. And did that lead you to co-founding Enabled Emissions Campaign?

04:01Eventually, yeah. But first, I didn't just find that and immediately quit. I went through years of trying

04:10to understand more about what was going on, who was in charge, how these decisions were being made,

04:16and what we could do internally to try to push as employees for positive change. We worked within a

04:23coalition of employees at the company for about four or five years, working directly with senior leadership

04:31leadership to work very coordinated within the company, very collaboratively on how we could put

04:39internal guardrails in place. And we seemed to be making headway. But ultimately, we really realized

04:50that internal pressure alone was not going to be enough. And we ultimately decided that we needed to have

04:56some sort of external force. We think the internal and external pushing together is what's really

05:02going to make change. And there just really was no external force. So we decided to be that and to

05:08be

05:08that force and quit our cushy tech jobs to be nonprofit founders, which was a very different life path.

05:17And when I say we, this is my partner and I, he's both my partner in life and in this

05:22work.

05:23And we bring very complimentary skills. And we were both at Microsoft, we didn't meet at Microsoft,

05:28but we met in the mountains, but we were working on this together and both decided to leave and do

05:34this

05:34together. That's amazing. That's awesome. Do you just like as an outsider, right? Speculating

05:42is the was was one of the like factors that that to as to why Microsoft couldn't stop sort of

05:52getting

05:53in bed with with these things that are just not coherent with your values, just like the

05:59accelerationism and the growth at any cost, like it's just the infinite growth model, basically,

06:04that pushes them to have to need, we need energy now, we don't we can't think forward, we need,

06:10is that essentially what the big reason for them to just not stop using oil?

06:18Yeah, and I mean, I can only speculate. When we talked with the senior leadership,

06:25they completely agreed with us that there should be guardrails in place, that using this technology

06:32to dramatically increase global fossil fuel production and resulting emissions was the exact

06:37opposite of what the company should be doing. And Microsoft is very strongly supportive of climate

06:45science and of guardrails and of the need for any company who can move faster should like they have

06:51very beautiful and strong quotes around the responsibility of companies to do the right thing

06:58for our our planet and everything and everyone who lives on it. So I can't really tell you though,

07:05then what happened once after those meetings, when they went back to the rest of the leadership

07:13team and the board of directors that ultimately, I keep using that word ultimately, but it was a lot of,

07:22you know, a lot of process that ended in there not being the change that they had promised and that

07:30they

07:31said that they needed. So I mean, I, you know, I, I, I feel for them it because there is

07:37this, there is the

07:38fiduciary duty argument of having value for shareholders above all else, there's quarterly profits that they

07:46have to report on. And this, these contracts were extremely profitable and are extremely profitable. And

07:53so they're kind of in, in a tough spot if they are taking that quarterly profit approach and not wanting

08:01to have their doing the right thing in any way, shape or form threaten that.

08:11Yeah, I guess it's, it's one of those trade-offs that you have with like the

08:16sort of having shareholders and having a, being a publicly traded company and having a board, right,

08:21is that the board is sort of external to the company itself and they can sue you. They can

08:26sue you if they can make the argument that you've reduced their income by doing something unnecessary.

08:32And you could argue that this movement towards sustainability, they could argue it's unnecessary

08:38in a court and they would probably win. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why I'm very excited to see some movements

08:44around fiduciary duty and kind of stakeholder value being more stakeholders rather than shareholders,

08:52where stakeholders also includes our planet. And you know, the, the way that humans can live on this

08:59earth is all that is, that is a part of a stake of what should be counted in how a

09:06company is evaluated.

09:07So I'm very excited for that movement. Cause that is that, is that like a real movement that's

09:13actually like gaining traction? Cause this is something that I would be very, very excited about.

09:18Um, if, if the stakeholder also counted like just the world, the environment.

09:26Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I don't know as much as I should about the movement. I, I mean,

09:31I know it's, I've seen it brought up and there's, there's, I think organizations that are trying to

09:38push for it, but I don't actually really know where that is. Maybe that's something we should,

09:41um, look into and share in our, in the podcast notes. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's,

09:48it's one of the reasons that ESG has taken over CSR. Um, you know, that social governance part of things,

09:56including it in the environmental disclosures and things it's meant to be that of we're taking

10:02care of both the environmental planet, physical world, but also social communities, individuals,

10:08stakeholders. It's a simple semantics change, but it's also, it means everything when you bring it

10:14down to the legislation. Yes. Which, so I'm glad you brought that up because one of the things that we

10:20want to do in our campaign. And so just, I guess a little bit of backing up when we decided

10:27to leave

10:27the company about two years ago. So in, uh, 2024, beginning of 2024, we decided to leave to found

10:34this campaign and we have been now trying to pull many different levers from now this external position.

10:42And we still stand in solidarity and support the folks who, and employees who are still within the

10:47company, both Microsoft and tech, other tech companies within the fossil fuel companies as well.

10:52Um, they are a little bit, um, have their hands tied, um, more than ever, the employees that are

11:00still in the company just due to, unfortunately AI now is impacting, um, and it's not just AI, but

11:11the employment of these people is more at risk than ever. We've had tens of thousands of layoffs,

11:21even just in the Seattle area. And people are quite nervous and scared for their jobs, um, and less

11:30willing than ever to speak out because they will not have a job anymore. And it is a very hard

11:36job

11:36market right now in tech. So that said, um, now we've been working externally for change and trying

11:42to pull many different levers. And one of them is around the ESG angle because, you know, Microsoft

11:48is one of the largest ESG companies on the planet. They were labeled and named number one ESG company in

11:55the world a few years ago, which was that quote unquote, I would say, right. I mean, but that's,

12:03that's been there. They've been chosen as that company. And that's the brand because it's because

12:11for some reason with tech companies, the way that they are evaluated for their environmental impact

12:18has nothing to do with what they're actually producing. It's only their own internal operations.

12:23So looking at, you know, their own office buildings or in their supply chain, and it doesn't include

12:29what they produce, which is very odd because we don't let other companies and other industries

12:34get away with that. The example that I've brought up recently is around a company like Lockheed Martin,

12:40who's making weapons. You would never judge the impact, their kind of violence footprint,

12:46just on their own HR practices, you know, how they're performing internally to the company.

12:53It matters what they're producing, they're producing weapons. And I think that this is a good analogy

12:58to tech companies. We keep, you know, we would never call Lockheed Martin a company of peace

13:03because we take into consideration what they're producing. Yet companies like Microsoft and tech

13:09companies, we call them a company of sustainability because we're only looking at their internal practices,

13:15and we're not counting what they're producing, which is technology for fossil fuel companies

13:20that are, that is increasing global emissions at a very large scale.

13:25You mentioned that you worked with the, with the, in sort of like the sustainability space in,

13:31but along the lines of like the, their data centers, right. And then, and all of that, what,

13:37has there been a change in the, in the philosophy around data centers? Because it seems to me like

13:42data centers are popping up, like they're spawning. Yeah. Uh, and without, without rhyme or reason,

13:50wherever they can finally get people to just say yes. And, and without consideration. And there's a,

13:57there's a complete, like a lot of executives I feel live in La La Land. Uh, and, and they're in

14:03complete denial of the outward effects. Cause like they're like, cause they'll bring a lot of

14:08arguments like, uh, Google and Microsoft opening. I were making a lot of arguments of like the jobs

14:14it'll produce. But then when they brought it there, um, they usually hired external contractors and

14:20after it's built, there are no jobs for the locals. Right. So can you, can you bring us through like,

14:26what has changed in the space and what you think is like, uh, uh, going on there? Because the data

14:31center thing, we've had conversations before on the podcast. I feel like we need a more rounded view

14:36on it. And I can definitely, um, speak to that up until two years ago when I left. Um, and

14:42so, and I've

14:44kept in touch somewhat with folks in, on that team and in the, in that space, but, um, and just

14:51to

14:51preface this too, with how they are two separate issues around the data centers and, you know,

14:59the energy, the infrastructure to, and the operations to run the technology and then what the tech is

15:04used for are just, just to be totally clear here. I know we, we have two topics then we're talking

15:09about on this, um, in this episode. So what we've been talking about so far is what the technology is

15:15used for, which is what my campaign is around, but I did used to work on the data center team.

15:21Um, and so there were considerations when choosing siting for the data centers around, uh, local

15:30considerations and how can it be, um, how can we have the least impact, um, negative impact on the

15:39local communities with, with building the data centers. I would say though, there were a lot of

15:44other factors, um, around siding around how to making sure that you can get energy in that space

15:52or in the, in that area, water, um, land, how cheap is the land. And there were a lot of

16:00factors to

16:00consider. And I would say some, uh, to say it politically, a lot of those other factors maybe

16:07were higher on the list than, um, local community, uh, impacts. There are great programs within

16:17Microsoft. The, the capacity is there. The brain power is there to kind of do it right. Whether the

16:24political will and the funding is there is another question because there are it, when Microsoft and

16:31these tech and AI companies are selling this technology at a rate that is just, they are tripping

16:39on their own processes just to try to get the data centers built at a pace that can keep up

16:46with what

16:47they are selling. And so unfortunately, when you're trying to move that quickly and at that scale,

16:53you just, you, you can't include all of these considerations that are possible. Like Microsoft

17:01has an amazing, amazing program around biomimicry, which is looking at how that data center can

17:08replicate local ecosystems and actually produce ecosystem services at, or at the same or even more

17:16than a local reference ecosystem. So say you're in and it's locally dependent. So depending on what

17:23kind of ecosystem you're near, it kind of tries to mimic that in the amount of even fresh water it

17:28produces or carbon it sequesters. Um, and so they have that program is just, is it getting funded

17:34on the scale necessary? Um, and then one more, one more thing is about the jobs. Yeah. It, it,

17:39data centers do not bring that many jobs. Um, it's, it, they're good jobs, uh, but it's very few.

17:45And then, yeah, as you said that they do have some contracting jobs to build the data centers,

17:49but they're pretty short, you know, only a couple of years at most. Um, so that argument,

17:56I don't think they really try to make that argument anymore.

18:00Yeah. The blindfolds off to be honest.

18:03And then what my program was just quickly, the, the, the, I was on the community team. We,

18:09this did not have to do with the impacts of the data center itself. My, uh, community development

18:15or community affairs team was just trying to listen to the local, uh, community and then fund

18:21local projects based on those local needs. And so that, that's what I started that program for

18:28sustainability and developed it over many years. And I actually think, you know, not to toot my own

18:33horn too much, but it had, it had great principles and I think it was a great program. Um, my

18:39concern was

18:40it didn't have enough funding. It did not have nearly enough funding. We, I mean, and it wasn't

18:44tied to the growth. It was just kind of a set amount every year. I think it should have been

18:50tied

18:51to like, how big is this data center? Can we have some percentage of revenue or construction budget

18:56that goes to the local community and that can actually fund these larger, like really impactful

19:01projects. And then the other thing, oh, was that I was just increasingly concerned that that program

19:08was being used to then justify increased data center expansion. And I wasn't completely convinced

19:15that the good that I was doing was outweighing, um, the harm and kind of what that net, I was

19:23actually

19:23concerned that my work being used to justify ultimately led to negative impacts on the community.

19:30And now they can say, yes, we're doing these things, but we're giving back.

19:34Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's like, okay, but what's the scale of each and I, yeah.

19:41Yeah. Well, I, I guess it's one of those catch 22s when you're in this sort of space, right?

19:46The trade-off that Andres was talking about, but also put your money where your mouth is.

19:51And if you're not getting the funding, then probably your interest and your priorities aren't

19:56necessarily there, which is why you're not putting money aside or creating a self-sustaining program

20:01that it gets funded because of the things you're doing, right? Speculation on my end.

20:06Yeah. And there are, there are a lot of groups doing data center pushback right now. They're like,

20:12shout out to those groups who are on the ground in lots of places around the world who are calling

20:17out

20:18the energy usage and the water usage and like just pushing these companies to have real meaningful

20:29investments and slow down. And like, don't just build without, you know, with no plan.

20:38Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that's great. Um, and I'm glad that that's happening. Our work though,

20:45gets my concern with this is that when people think about AI and energy, that is the, you know,

20:53the data centers are definitely a concern. My concern is that that is the only thing that people see

21:02the environmental impacts of AI, but it's not. Okay. So I want to get into that. Yeah. I mean,

21:12I want you to define for us what enabled emissions is because I'm really interested in the semantics of

21:19why your campaign is called on and then let's get into the enabled emissions. Yeah. So we're not

21:26actually addressing AI's environmental impact. If we only talk about the electricity and water use of

21:32data centers, we have to talk about what the technology is built to do and advanced technologies

21:38are actively being developed over the last decade to, and now with, with AI and generative AI are just

21:46supercharging these, these processes to develop, to optimize and expand fossil fuel production.

21:54It's being used to lower their costs, increase the output and really lock in decades of additional

22:01emissions that far outweigh the energy used to run the models. And these are additional emissions that

22:08would not happen if not for this technology. And that's why we're calling them enabled emissions.

22:13They're emissions enabled by the technology. We have many examples of projects that would not happen.

22:22And we have very clear quotes from energy executives saying there were these projects that were too

22:29expensive or too complicated to develop. And now with AI, these super powerful tools, we are now able to

22:36move forward with these projects. These are new offshore projects. These are new projects in the ocean subfloor.

22:44This is very complicated projects or even bringing back fracking. There are stories too around shale

22:52projects that we're bringing that back where it was being phased out because it just didn't make sense

22:58anymore. Now we can continue. And it's just like bending the curve back towards fossil energy, which is horrifying.

23:08I can feel Victoria's pain because from what I understand, one of, one of the, one of the, because I'm,

23:18I'm very anti, I'm, I run my local models.

23:20I don't use anything else, but I'm very anti big data centers and I'm, I'm not, I don't like the

23:25way AI is going, but one of the silver linings, for example, for Victoria was the use of AI for,

23:32for better models around the environment and sustainability.

23:36But if, if it's completely contrasted or even dwarf by its use for extraction.

23:44Yes.

23:44I'm so frustrated.

23:46Yeah.

23:47Yes.

23:47And so.

23:48I think humans, we create very cool tools.

23:51Mm-hmm.

23:52It's all about how we employ them.

23:53Exactly.

23:54So one of the things I've said before is AI would be great for us to figure out how much

23:58power the grid needs so we can roll out clean energy in the way that makes sense for the grid.

24:03Yeah.

24:05There are absolutely fantastic applications of AI for sustainability, like full stop.

24:11It can be used for great things.

24:13The problem is we can not only look at one side of the equation.

24:17It's like, it's like watching a game of basketball and you say, oh, yeah, my team is winning, but you're

24:23only looking at your team's points.

24:25Yeah.

24:25And you, you have to look at how many points the other team has as well.

24:29So the sustainability side has 10 points.

24:31Yay.

24:32But the fossil fuel side has a billion points.

24:34Then like clearly they're winning.

24:36We're just not even including that in the conversation.

24:38And there's this false narrative and false equation that even sustainability professionals around the world are talking about every day.

24:47It's very frustrating to me to see this, this false equation of being, we need to look at the positive

24:53use cases of AI for sustainability and the emissions that that could reduce.

24:58And, but we need to look at the net equation of that versus operations and, and the energy used to

25:05run the technology.

25:06It's like, you're missing the other side of the equation.

25:10Like we should look at AI for good versus AI for bad in terms of emissions.

25:14Look at that.

25:15And then we can add the operations and the, the energy to run the tech, but that's a separate issue.

25:22And, but yet somehow they've been like, and that is what people think the issue is.

25:26We're stuck in the trying to break even.

25:30Yeah.

25:30And, but, but, and we can try to break even, but we need to include AI for fossil fuels as

25:37well.

25:37If you're using, if you're counting AI for renewables, you need to count AI for fossil fuels.

25:41Yet somehow that is in almost entirely left out of the conversation around climate and AI.

25:47I see it every day.

25:49I think you can make the argument that a lot of more development time and, and mental power is being

25:55put into using AI for extraction than it is using AI for.

25:59Far more, far, far, far, far more.

26:01I mean, the contracts that we saw at Microsoft, it, it's kind of laughable.

26:09The, the comparison and the ratio of AI for sustainability versus AI for fossil fuels.

26:16Yet, and we're actually, that is why we take issue with things like Microsoft's external reporting with their 10K, their

26:26annual report, their impact summary, et cetera.

26:28That bring up their applications of AI and energy and only talk about AI for sustainability, which is a tiny

26:36fraction of what their AI is being used to do in energy.

26:40So we find that actually misleading to shareholders and to employees and to the public.

26:48So that is something that our campaign is trying to do is bring that to light of that actual ratio.

26:56Okay.

26:58Do you think people don't know this because of a disclosure issue, a governance issue?

27:05Is it just a moral problem and we're all corrupt?

27:08Like what, why don't people know?

27:10Yeah, it's a really good question.

27:12And it's something that I think about all the time of like, how do people not know this?

27:17I mean, I think that these companies have done a fantastic job of keeping it quiet.

27:23They did have press releases back around 2019.

27:28You can see some very blatant press releases that I'll share with you between Microsoft and Exxon quantifying the barrels

27:36of oil per day.

27:37They were said, we are now able to in the Permian Basin produce 50,000 additional barrels per day that

27:44we would not have been able to produce without this Microsoft technology.

27:47And it was very blatant.

27:49And that was back in 2019.

27:51Technology has gotten way more advanced since then.

27:55And that's just one deal.

27:56But then when Microsoft published their, their, their sustainability commitments in 2020 around carbon water waste and ecosystems, those press

28:05releases went away and they have not published publicly.

28:10They really have not spoken publicly about this work and have been done a really good job of marketing and

28:17communications around their sustainability efforts.

28:19So I don't blame people for not knowing.

28:23I also think that this data center issue has just taken up the air time around like that is the

28:34problem.

28:35And then our issue kind of gets, it gets confused with that and very common misconception that that's what we're

28:43talking about, even though it's a completely different issue.

28:45And I actually think that the tech and the fossil fuel companies are loving that everyone is focused on data

28:50centers because they're just getting away with it and getting away with this far, far larger.

28:57I don't want to pit them against each other.

28:59I don't want to say that we shouldn't focus on data centers because this is more important.

29:03That's not what I'm trying to say.

29:04It's just, it should be both.

29:06Yeah.

29:07Data centers are like a piece of it.

29:09It's just not the only thing.

29:12Yeah.

29:13It's tip of the iceberg.

29:15Tip of the iceberg.

29:16So that's, that's our analogy.

29:17That's what we say.

29:18Or, or one other, we've got a couple analogies.

29:21One is the data centers of the tip of the iceberg when we're talking about the full impacts.

29:25Another one is that data centers are like the lighter and we're worried about the, the emissions from a lighter,

29:31which we should be, but then what is the lighter being used for?

29:34And it's, if it's being used to light a forest fire, we should also care about the forest fire, even

29:38if it ends up being an electric lighter that's run on clean energy.

29:42If it's lighting a forest fire, that's still bad.

29:44Which it isn't.

29:45Or one more is that.

29:46It's not.

29:47It's not.

29:48And then one other, one other last analogy is around, we say we're building a robot.

29:55And even if we, the robot ran completely on clean energy, had an amazing supply chain that would use green

30:03steel and everything, you know, if the robot has machine guns, that's still, that's still, we still need to address

30:11what the robot is being built to do.

30:13I guess on a personal level for you, what does it cost, whether professionally or personally, I guess, to raise

30:21these issues publicly?

30:22Because you're very passionate, but also you come from being right there where change should have happened and leaving because

30:31you didn't see enough change happen.

30:33I mean, I don't think I'm going to work at Microsoft anymore, which, you know, is a little sad in

30:41a way because working in tech and being within, inside the tent, as they say, definitely has benefits.

30:51In terms of the networks that you have, the colleagues that you work with, and the salary is not bad

30:59and, you know, the benefits and everything, but I just couldn't, I couldn't be part of that anymore, knowing what

31:07I know.

31:08And there's definitely a cost to that.

31:12We haven't made any, we haven't gotten a grant in two years.

31:16I mean, we've been, it's been challenging.

31:19We just, our, our issue kind of falls right in the cracks between climate and tech funding.

31:27We're trying to bridge that gap and we're definitely making headway.

31:31We've had fantastic coverage of the issue.

31:34You know, we have a long way to go, but we have been covered by a lot of great outlets.

31:39So that part's going really well.

31:41And that part feels really good, but it definitely is a cost to speaking out.

31:46And it's, it's definitely tough.

31:52But also, it also feels really good that I don't have any cognitive dissonance.

31:57I don't go to work every day, like feeling conflicted.

32:01I'm doing exactly what I think needs to be done.

32:04The conflict that I feel is like, where do I put my time and energy?

32:08What's going to have actually make an impact?

32:11That's, that's the biggest stressor and like, yeah, just the financial part of it.

32:18But, which is such a big, I mean, with, with this whole AI boom, right?

32:23You can go at it from every angle.

32:25So I feel like, I feel like this might be like a good thing.

32:29But AI is, is sort of waging a war on all, like against all fronts.

32:36Because from a, because like, for example, you just mentioned the conflict of like, where do I put my time?

32:41Right?

32:41And when I look at these issues, I think a lot about like a consumer issues, right?

32:47How, how these, these data sensors are hogging a lot of resources, how they're, how they're risking jobs.

32:55But then you can look at it from the energy perspective, and then you can look at it from the

33:00output perspective.

33:01And so like, I feel like, and in the United States, I think there's been a lot of movements to

33:07just get this to stop.

33:10And they have done something, which is good.

33:15They have stopped the build, they have stopped expansion at multiple locations where they wanted to build data centers.

33:24But I don't think, I think like, just deciding where you're going to put your energy at this point in

33:32time is just, it's just almost impossible.

33:35Yeah, and, and that's, that's very true.

33:40It's kind of good, I guess, that there are so many issues with AI, because then it's almost like everyone

33:47has a reason to be concerned.

33:49And so people are starting to kind of get it that, that this should have additional scrutiny.

33:58And I'm not someone who says that we need to stop all AI production or even stop all fossil fuels.

34:03I think there's, there's a, there's a role, especially in places that don't have the infrastructure to do anything else.

34:10I am not someone who says we need to stop all fossil fuel production immediately.

34:13I just think we should have reasonable, reasonable principles and guardrails.

34:18Just, I mean, and I, and I know we're over time here, but.

34:21No, no, you're good.

34:22I mean, there are, there, and even Microsoft has responsible AI principles for that, that try to mitigate human harms

34:31and they're fantastic.

34:32They just don't include environment.

34:34So one of the things that we're trying to do is, is just ensure that there's reasonable guardrails.

34:40Um, you want balance and transparency, which balance and transparency and responsibility.

34:47Um, especially from a company who is so speak so strongly about responsibility, the responsibility that they have as the

34:55technology company to take responsibility for the impacts of their technology.

34:59I just want them to follow through.

35:01Yeah.

35:02Be more congruent with the messaging.

35:04I guess.

35:05Where is your energy now?

35:06Plug us.

35:07What are, what should we be looking out for?

35:09What do you want us to do?

35:10What's, what's the CTA here?

35:13Yeah.

35:14Um, so most public conversations focus as we've talked about on AI's hypothetical climate benefits

35:20or its energy use.

35:22So, and very few focus on how it's actively expanding fossil fuel production today.

35:28So again, this isn't about banning AI, but it's about setting boundaries about what we allow advanced technology to scale.

35:37And so our campaign is partially just about bringing that part of, you know, what AI is used for into

35:46the conversation and into the responsibility.

35:49And kind of ownership of, uh, of the boundaries around AI's impacts.

35:56So one of the things we're trying to do is one is quantify and kind of look at the research.

36:03How can we quantify these emissions or kind of actually put some numbers, um, and some research to this, this

36:11issue?

36:12Cause right now we can just say like, it's really big, we promise, but how can we actually, um, have

36:17some credible evidence behind it?

36:19And then how can we translate that into policy and into rules of the road?

36:24Um, how can we actually have guardrails in place, um, that are not just for company by company, but maybe

36:30raising the floor for the entire sector?

36:33Um, so that's one thing we're trying to do.

36:35We think in the U S in the next few years is going to be very, very difficult, but we're

36:39focused on the EU.

36:41Um, who have things like the EU's AI act that has certain applications of AI are flagged as high risk

36:49and go through additional scrutiny.

36:51Um, and how can we build a coalition in this space with different tech organizations, climate, and even then just

36:58the civic society, general, um, public to try to show that, um, it's important and that these companies should take

37:06responsibility.

37:07So we got a lot of different levers we're pulling.

37:09Um, I would say to wrap this up, um, enabled emissions.com has a lot more information.

37:16And then there's a signup link there for our newsletter.

37:19We very infrequently send, um, but we will send maybe once a quarter or, um, even just twice a year,

37:26uh, with updates and some things that people can do to get involved.

37:32Perfect.

37:33And we're going to put some of those resources on the blog as well.

37:35So we're going to stay for a bit longer and talk about more about the ethical questions.

37:39Let's get a bit, bit meta here, but philosophical.

37:44Thank you so much, Holly, for being so open.

37:45I really appreciate your passion and transparency without doom.

37:49I think it's hard to be so candid without fear mongering these days.

37:54I really appreciate it.

37:55Yeah.

37:56I mean, it, there's, there's a lot of fear, but I'm hope.

38:02Yeah.

38:03Yeah.

38:03So you can check out the blog at angelic life.org and we'll catch you guys on the next one.

38:08Bye.

38:09Bye.

38:21Bye.

38:23Bye.

38:38Bye.

38:40Bye.

38:41Bye.

38:49Bye.

Big Tech's Climate Blind Spot: How AI Is Supercharging Fossil Fuel Production w/ Holly Alpine | S04E10

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