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00:01A 27-year-old sex worker goes missing from the streets of Glasgow.
00:06There have been six murders of sex workers within the Glasgow area in the preceding years.
00:13This is a very, very dangerous trade because you don't know who you're going to meet,
00:17you don't know the individual and you don't know what may happen.
00:20When her body turns up in a remote part of Scotland, a major investigation gets underway.
00:26They took about 8,000 statements and hundreds of DNA samples.
00:31It was probably at that point the biggest murder investigation in the history of Strathclythe police.
00:36The decision was made to conduct 24-hour surveillance.
00:41This surveillance is massively expensive and is a very complicated and complex procedure.
00:48You have to be very sure that you're on the right track, that these are the people involved.
01:02hospitals, these are the ones that have never been erstened.
01:05The results of London
01:16Look at you, with malignant executives,
01:33Limefield Woods, located near Biggar, South Lanarkshire in Scotland, is a peaceful woodland
01:39known for its picturesque walking trails.
01:44Limefield Woods is a huge rural location.
01:47It's about an hour's drive away from Glasgow, about 43 miles, close to the villages of Roberton
01:54and the town of Biggar.
02:00You can go in there at daylight and the light can just disappear, because of the size of
02:05the trees and the denseness of the forest.
02:09The only people that will go there, people who live in the area, or are walkers, or go
02:14there for a specific reason.
02:15It's not somewhere you'll find just by chance by driving past.
02:18This is somewhere you would go to, to have a look at the wonderful area that it is.
02:24It is a place that contrasts between day and night.
02:29During the day, it's peaceful, there's a feeling of serenity, it's tranquil, it's popular with
02:34dog walkers, it's beautiful scenery.
02:36At night, however, it's completely different.
02:39It becomes somewhere that's isolated and remote and quite frightening.
02:44It's dark, it's wet, it's white, it's white, but it's dark.
02:47And it's very silent.
02:5130 miles away in the city of Glasgow, parents of a local woman become concerned when they
02:56are unable to reach their daughter in April 2005.
03:04Emma Caldwell was the daughter of Willie and Margaret Caldwell
03:09Emma comes from a family of two girls
03:11Emma, her sister and her parents were very close
03:14and would stay in regular contact
03:17Emma had a really tragic thing happen to her
03:20when she was young
03:21and that was that her older sister got cancer and sadly died
03:25and it had a huge impact on Emma for the rest of her life
03:31life had been fine up until then
03:32whether that's through education or family life
03:35everything was great
03:36everything was what we would say I suppose that awful word normal
03:39but it was
03:40but losing her older sister really did change her
03:45clearly Emma found this such a traumatic time in her life
03:49that she turned to drugs
03:50and subsequently she had a drug habit to fund
03:56now if you're not working in the sense of having a regular salary
03:59you've got to have this ready cash available
04:03and that's going to be done really a number of couple of ways
04:06one it's either through crime
04:07or two in the case of many many unfortunate women
04:11they turn to prostitution
04:17for young women doing sex work on the street
04:20it's extremely dangerous
04:22they are extremely vulnerable
04:23they leave themselves open to physical attack
04:26to rape
04:27even murder
04:29they are targeted
04:31and they are abused
04:35the majority of the time
04:37these women will have something that has happened to them in their past
04:41whether it's their childhood
04:44or you know in their teenage years
04:46quite often if you actually go to an area
04:49where they're on street sex workers
04:50you will see a pimp in the background
04:52you might not realise that's who he is
04:53but there will be a pimp in the background somewhere
04:55and they're working them
04:57and they're taking the money from them
04:58they're giving them enough
04:59so they can fund their drug habit
05:01but then they're sending them back out on the streets again
05:04to fund their next hit of drugs
05:07and it's a brutal
05:10hard
05:11cruel life
05:14the fact that a prostitute works on the street
05:17the fact that it's illegal means it's undercover
05:19the fact is that they don't have the protection that other countries offer
05:24then this is a very very dangerous trade
05:27because you don't know who you're going to meet
05:28you don't know the individual
05:30and you don't know what may happen
05:34struggling with drug addiction
05:35and wanting to protect her parents from its impact
05:3827-year-old Emma Caldwell
05:40left her family home
05:42and had been living in a woman's hostel in central Glasgow
05:48on Monday the 4th of April 2005
05:51Emma Caldwell leaves the hostel
05:54that she was living in
05:55on Englefield Street
05:57to go to the streets
06:00to do her job as a sex worker
06:07this is the last time she is seen alive
06:14the first people to really think there's something amiss within Emma's life were her parents
06:19about two days after she was last seen her mother was phoning her and there was no response
06:24which was unusual because they would speak on the phone every day
06:28even though Emma had left home and Emma was working as a prostitute she was still in regular contact with
06:34her parents
06:34Emma made a point of seeing her parents at least twice a week
06:40but she would have spoken to her mother Margaret
06:42two or three times every single day
06:44on Wednesday the 6th of April
06:48Emma's father attempted to phone her
06:52but she did not pick up
06:53and he made a remark to his wife Margaret
06:56that maybe Emma was unwell
07:00the mother was so concerned regarding this
07:03that she attended the following Saturday
07:06the hostel where she lived
07:09she made enquiries there
07:10she knocked on the door
07:11but she wasn't there
07:13the next day the Sunday
07:16they made the decision to contact the police
07:18and report Emma as a missing person
07:25of course we've now got the situation
07:28that one Emma is an adult
07:29two she is a prostitute
07:31now even in those days
07:34many police forces around the whole of the UK
07:37may not take that seriously
07:39because of what they would say at the time
07:42was well that's the life she's chosen
07:44I'm sure she'll turn up
07:45so a lot of the time these reports would be taken
07:48or taken down
07:50and be shown as reported
07:52but there won't be too much that the police would have been doing at that stage
07:56one of the things that the police would be particularly interested in
08:01and again it would set alarm bells
08:04and elevate this investigation
08:05is that she didn't collect her methadone
08:07a lot of drug addicts
08:09particularly heroin addicts
08:11will have methadone
08:12which is a substitute
08:14which is when they're trying to wean them off drugs
08:16or when they're trying to
08:18themselves realise they have an issue
08:20and they want to be weaned off drugs
08:21and part of that is that they have a methadone prescription
08:26to get that methadone prescription
08:27they have to go to a chemist
08:29and it's a specific chemist
08:31they have a certain time of day
08:32they have to turn up for this methadone
08:34they have to take the methadone
08:36there and then in front of the chemist
08:37and if somebody doesn't turn up for their methadone
08:41something's not right
08:43Emma's family, friends and the police
08:46become increasingly concerned for her welfare
08:49there was a lot of things that weren't adding up
08:52Emma's routine was different
08:54because she hadn't been out in the streets
08:57none of her colleagues had seen her
08:58obviously her family had never heard anything from her in those days
09:02no phone calls, no meetings, nothing
09:04so everything had stopped
09:06her life just seemed to have stopped completely
09:09so police were suspicious that she had come to some harm
09:22as time went on
09:26days turned into weeks of Emma being missing
09:29the police really then started to become more and more concerned
09:33so much so that they warned her parents
09:36that they might have to prepare themselves for the worst
09:40five weeks after her disappearance
09:42Emma's parents' worst fears come true
09:45on Sunday the 8th of May
09:47a dog walker in Limefield Woods
09:51discovered the body of Emma Caldwell
09:56the police found Emma's body
09:59in a shallow ditch within Limefield Woods
10:04as she was naked
10:09and of course we've now got the situation
10:11she's 43 miles from Glasgow
10:13last spotted on CCTV
10:15going to work
10:16there is absolutely no reason for her to be there
10:19why was she there in the first place
10:21was her body taken there
10:23or was she led there
10:25in which case she must have been driven there
10:27by somebody who knows the area quite well
10:30the investigation into Emma Caldwell's murder
10:33quickly becomes a high profile case for the police
10:36there had been six murders of sex workers
10:39within the Glasgow area
10:41in the preceding years
10:42so it was probably at that point
10:45the biggest murder investigation
10:47in the history of Strathclyde police
10:50what investigators didn't know at the time
10:52was that disagreements over suspects
10:54and internal politics within the Strathclyde task force
10:57would significantly complicate the search for the killer
11:20five weeks after 27-year-old Emma Caldwell disappeared in Glasgow
11:25her naked body is discovered
11:27on May 8th 2005
11:29in Limefield Woods
11:31a woodland area
11:3230 miles south of Glasgow
11:34near Big Arse, Scotland
11:38police were now faced with a difficult task
11:40of informing her next of kin
11:45as a police officer
11:47whether in uniform or as a detective
11:49to give a death message
11:50is probably the hardest thing you'll ever have to do
11:53and in many cases
11:54just by turning up when it's a missing person case
11:57you turn up at the door and you knock on it
11:58the minute they see you
11:59they know it's bad news
12:03Emma's parents had the unfortunate task
12:05of identifying Emma's body in the mortuary
12:09they were devastated
12:10because they had already lost one daughter
12:12and now they were losing their other daughter
12:15in such a cruel way
12:19the natural landscape of where Emma's body was found
12:22poses difficulties for crime scene investigators
12:26it is a forest
12:27it's full of trees
12:28it's not going to be the easiest place to search
12:31there are a number of steps that you need to go through
12:35firstly you obviously have to forensically examine
12:38as best you can
12:40under the circumstances
12:41the body whilst it's in situ
12:44you would obviously conduct a search
12:47of the surrounding areas
12:48and this is specialist police search teams
12:51on their hands and knees
12:53shoulder to shoulder
12:55and literally
12:57fingertip searching
12:58until they find anything unusual
13:02and of course in this instance
13:03one thing that was discovered
13:04around her neck
13:06was a piece of wire
13:07which becomes very crucial
13:08in the investigation
13:10the post-mortem revealed
13:12that Emma had been the victim of strangulation
13:15and there were markings on her neck
13:18consistent with the length of cable
13:20that had been found
13:22underneath her neck
13:27with the murder investigation underway
13:30Strathclyde police assemble a task force
13:34each investigation in the UK
13:36is given an operation
13:38in this instance
13:39Emma's murder
13:41the investigation into it
13:42was known as Operation Grail
13:43and that consisted of about 50 officers
13:46they took about 8,000 statements
13:49and hundreds of DNA samples
13:51so this was a huge inquiry
13:54the nature of Emma's work
13:56makes lines of inquiry difficult to establish
14:01they come in contact with very very many people
14:04that don't really want to be identified
14:08and so even the sex worker themselves
14:12probably doesn't know these people
14:14doesn't know their names
14:15doesn't know where they live
14:17and that's why it becomes really problematic
14:21police begin their search
14:22with the people closest to Emma
14:25well first of all the police
14:26obviously spoke to Emma's family
14:27they tried to get as much information
14:29from her family as possible
14:31what kind of person Emma was
14:33and basically her whole back story
14:35as a human being
14:35they then spoke to people in the hostel
14:38who knew Emma
14:39and then they obviously
14:40made their way to speaking
14:42to other sex workers
14:43on the streets of Glasgow's red light district
14:46who would have knew Emma
14:47and would have knew her habits
14:49her movements
14:50and things like that
14:51so they were basically casting
14:52as big a net out as possible
14:55to speak to as many people as possible
14:57to get as much information about Emma
14:59and her movements
15:00to try and find out who killed her
15:03the senior investigating officer
15:06Willie Johnston
15:07makes a number of public appeals
15:09for information on Emma's murder
15:11they were appealing to the public
15:14they were appealing to punters
15:16who may well have remembered Emma
15:18who may well have been with Emma
15:20they wanted as many people
15:22to come forward
15:23and give as much of a detailed description
15:27about Emma and her life as possible
15:29they also had billboards
15:32with Emma Caldwell's face on it
15:34saying that they were looking
15:35for any information
15:36this was really because
15:38a lot of people would have seen Emma
15:40as a sex worker
15:41and that's all they would have seen
15:43they wouldn't have seen beyond that
15:44they wouldn't have seen
15:45that she was somebody's daughter
15:47she had a sister who died of cancer
15:49you know she was a human being
15:51and this was trying to make
15:54and help people to see her as a human being
15:56and not just a sex worker
16:02through speaking with Emma's colleagues
16:04police get their first significant lead
16:10the police had a very interesting conversation
16:12with a sex worker
16:14who knew Emma quite well
16:17this woman told police
16:18that there was one particular client
16:20who in her words
16:22was obsessed with Emma
16:24this client would hide out
16:26behind some billboards
16:27and if another client
16:29tried to talk to Emma
16:31or engage with Emma
16:32he would drive his van
16:34at full speed past them
16:35to try and intimidate them
16:36to try and scare them off
16:38almost that he was the only one
16:40that was allowed to engage with Emma
16:43and not only that
16:45she had told the other ladies
16:48that he'd raped her
16:49so investigators now started to build up
16:52potentially a suspect here
16:54someone who's fixating on Emma
16:56has used violence
16:58sexual violence against her
16:59and he's described as driving a van
17:01that's been seen in that area
17:03so police now had somebody
17:04they could start to focus in on
17:08investigators quickly locate
17:09the distinct vehicle
17:10described by the sex workers
17:13detectives were able to identify
17:15a van that was likely to be
17:16being used by this man
17:18and it had some writing down the side
17:20that said
17:20Alpha Beta Science Services
17:23the police were suspicious
17:25of this individual
17:26one of the reasons why
17:28was because one of the detectives
17:30on the case used to work
17:31as a repairman for neon signs
17:34he noticed that the cable
17:36that was found under Emma's neck
17:38the one end of it was damaged
17:39almost as if it had been burnt
17:41and from his experiences
17:43he thought that's the kind of thing
17:44that could have happened
17:45through repairing a sign
17:47and he thought
17:48could there be a connection
17:49between the cable
17:50and this man
17:51and his line of work
17:53so suddenly
17:54you got an awful lot of information
17:57not evidence at this stage
17:58but a lot of good information
18:00saying well this individual
18:01whoever drives her
18:01whoever owns that van
18:03definitely worth questioning
18:04on the 22nd of June 2005
18:07police identified
18:08that the man they were looking for
18:09was Ian Packer
18:14so a decision would need to be made
18:16how do we speak to this person
18:17do we speak to them as a witness
18:19or speak to them as a suspect
18:20if they're spoken to as a suspect
18:22they would need to be cautioned
18:23and they would need to be done
18:25under certain circumstances
18:26the police decided
18:27they would speak to him
18:28as a witness
18:29they go to this man's house
18:31the next morning
18:31at 7.30 in the morning
18:33he's getting up
18:34getting ready to go to work
18:35he is the director
18:36of a signs company
18:40and they ask him
18:42you know
18:42have you ever used prostitutes
18:44have you ever been
18:45in the red light district
18:46things of that nature
18:47he denies using sex workers
18:50he denies being a regular
18:51in the red light district
18:53and he is very much
18:54given the impression
18:56that this has nothing to do with him
18:58that he is
18:58just an ordinary guy
19:01fortunately
19:01the detective at the time
19:03did take a picture of him
19:04in most cases
19:05if you deal with somebody
19:06as a suspect
19:08you take fingerprints
19:09you take DNA
19:11that wasn't the case
19:12he's been dealt with as a witness
19:13so this detective
19:15had the thought
19:16I'll take the picture
19:17and just to find out
19:18and of course
19:18then they had a picture
19:19they could take back
19:20to some of the witnesses
19:21who worked with Emma
19:22to say
19:23is this the individual
19:24that you've told us about
19:25so they showed
19:2612 photographs of men
19:28to these girls
19:29and asked them
19:30whether the person
19:31who they described
19:32as fixated
19:33with Emma
19:34is amongst them
19:36and he was
19:37they identified
19:38Ian Packer
19:39as being that man
19:42a background check
19:43on Packer
19:44revealed more
19:45incriminating information
19:48during this investigation
19:50a number of women
19:51who were also sex workers
19:52came forward
19:53to say that
19:53they knew Ian Packer
19:55and they described him
19:56as someone
19:56that was quite scary
19:57they described him
19:58as someone
19:58who could get
19:59very aggressive
20:00very angry
20:01someone that was
20:03reluctant to use protection
20:05someone that would
20:06force them
20:06to strip off
20:08all of their clothing
20:09and if
20:09they didn't do that
20:11he would get very angry
20:12and he would do things
20:14like stomp his feet
20:15and raise his voice
20:16and just not a nice guy
20:18to the point
20:19that they actually
20:20had come up with
20:21a book called
20:22the Beware Book
20:23and within that
20:24they had the names
20:25of clients
20:25that they were warning
20:27other working girls
20:28to stay away from
20:29and Ian Packer's name
20:31was put in that book
20:32quite a few times
20:34as well as
20:35an alias he had used
20:36called Peter
20:38you've got so much
20:39evidence now
20:40coming from these
20:40wonderful witnesses
20:41who said
20:41this is the man
20:42who is sexually
20:44violent towards us
20:45and we believe
20:46he is responsible
20:47for the death
20:48of Emma
20:49we know
20:49he actually
20:50goes to certain areas
20:52we know what he's like
20:53so there's so much
20:54evidence being
20:55put together
20:56that these detectives
20:58think they've got
20:59the right guy
20:59they've got the guy
21:00that's been
21:01driving the van
21:02they've got the guy
21:02that has actually
21:04possibly been involved
21:06with some sort of
21:06cable involved with
21:07neon lights
21:08and they've got
21:09these witnesses
21:09saying he has
21:10previous for being
21:12violent towards
21:12women on the street
21:13obviously the
21:14investigation team
21:15would be quite
21:16excited by this
21:17and they would
21:18take the next
21:18logical step
21:20and that is
21:20to arrest
21:21and take him
21:22into custody
21:25this would obviously
21:26have to be approved
21:27by the SIO
21:27and in this particular
21:29case the SIO
21:31decided
21:32that that was not
21:33the course of action
21:34that they were
21:35going to take
21:35they were instructed
21:37by the SIO
21:38not to treat
21:39this individual
21:40as a suspect
21:42and of course
21:44as a junior officer
21:46you respect
21:47the decision
21:48of a SIO
21:49but it makes you
21:51wonder why
21:51what they don't know
21:53is behind the scenes
21:54there is a separate
21:55inquiry into the murder
21:57and four suspects
21:58have been identified
22:13Strathclyde
22:14Strathclyde police
22:14are investigating
22:15the murder
22:16of Emma Caldwell
22:17whose body
22:18was discovered
22:18in the remote
22:19Limefield woods
22:20near Biggar, Scotland
22:21on the 8th of May
22:232005
22:24authorities
22:25have identified
22:26a strong suspect
22:28Ian Packer
22:29a man known
22:30for his violent
22:31behaviour towards
22:32sex workers
22:32and is reported
22:34to have been
22:34obsessed with Caldwell
22:35however
22:37detectives are
22:38unaware
22:38that there is
22:39a parallel
22:40covert murder
22:41investigation
22:42underway
22:42some detectives
22:44working in
22:45Operation Greil
22:46went to
22:47interview people
22:48and when they
22:49went to interview
22:49them
22:50as witnesses
22:51they were told
22:51we've already
22:53been spoken to
22:53and
22:54the detectives
22:55were a bit
22:56perplexed at this
22:57and goes
22:58really
22:58and he goes
22:58oh yeah
22:59we've had someone
22:59just been here
23:01recently
23:02and spoken to me
23:02and the detectives
23:04would ring back
23:05to the police station
23:05and inquire
23:06and be told
23:06oh no
23:07they haven't been
23:07spoken to
23:07but the witnesses
23:09were absolutely
23:10insistent
23:11they have been
23:11spoken to
23:11it then transpires
23:13that alongside
23:14Operation Greil
23:16there is a secret
23:17unit working
23:18on the Emma Caldwell
23:18investigation
23:19called Operation
23:20Guard
23:21there was a whole
23:22different strand
23:22to the investigation
23:23that they weren't
23:24being told about
23:24for me
23:25it's unprecedented
23:26in the sense
23:27that I've not
23:27known that
23:28if you've got
23:28one operation
23:29running
23:30that's that operation
23:31even if it might
23:34coincide
23:35or conflict
23:36with another one
23:36but you're both
23:37aware
23:37of both operations
23:39you don't keep
23:41an operation
23:41within an operation
23:42secret
23:44from police officers
23:44because you're going
23:45to get the
23:45conflict of interest
23:46and the conflict
23:48of evidence
23:48you can't do
23:49it that way
23:52DCI Colin Field
23:53holds a briefing
23:54in the morning
23:55with DS Willie Johnson
23:56and all the detectives
23:58from Operation Greil
24:00and Operation Guard
24:01and he tells
24:03all the detectives
24:04what they've been doing
24:04what they've been working on
24:06we understand
24:07that you're interested
24:08in Ian Packer
24:08but this is where
24:09we're heading
24:10and this is why
24:10we're heading
24:12the details
24:13of Operation Guard's
24:15line of inquiry
24:15was revealed
24:16to be in relation
24:17to a Turkish man
24:18that had called
24:19Emma's phone
24:22the last phone call
24:24made to Emma's phone
24:25on the night
24:26of Monday
24:27the 4th of April
24:272005
24:28was a 72nd
24:30phone call
24:31from a man
24:32called
24:33Abu Bakar Anku
24:34he was a Turkish man
24:36and he had
24:37rang Emma
24:38that night
24:39the night of her murder
24:40and of course
24:41in many many
24:42murder cases
24:43that you deal with
24:44the last person
24:45in contact
24:46with the victim
24:47tends to be
24:47the murderer
24:49further examination
24:50of cell phone data
24:51reveals that
24:52the night of
24:53Emma's disappearance
24:54one of her last
24:55known locations
24:56was near a Turkish cafe
25:00so now
25:01there's a lot
25:02of circumstantial evidence
25:03not evidence
25:05pointing to a
25:05murderer
25:06or a suspect
25:07but it's circumstantial evidence
25:08that the SIO
25:09has taken on board
25:10to think
25:10right
25:10it's got to have
25:11something to do
25:12with that cafe
25:13because we've got
25:14the phone
25:14Emma's phone
25:15near the location
25:17and we've got
25:18Anku
25:18that we've now got
25:19we know he was
25:20the last person
25:20to make contact
25:21or try to make contact
25:22with Emma
25:23and we've got the location
25:25so let's now
25:26concentrate on
25:27looking at the cafe
25:28because they know
25:29that that's also a cafe
25:30that's frequented
25:31by women
25:33and prostitutes
25:34so that's where
25:35the line of inquiry
25:36then was strengthened
25:41Anku was questioned
25:42by detectives
25:43and he
25:45denied that he had
25:46seen Emma that night
25:47he couldn't recall
25:49making the phone call
25:50he couldn't recall
25:51what they had spoken about
25:52but he denied
25:53any knowledge
25:54of her murder
25:55or the events
25:56that led up to her death
25:57but he did concede
25:58that he had had
25:59a previous intimate
26:00encounter
26:01with Emma Colwell
26:04Detectives on
26:05Operation Guard
26:06felt this was
26:07enough evidence
26:08to focus all their efforts
26:09on the Turkish man
26:10and his comrades
26:12A decision was made
26:14to conduct
26:1524 hour surveillance
26:17on the cafe
26:19which would include
26:21visual surveillance
26:23and also
26:24audio
26:25surveillance
26:26and this would entail
26:28putting listening devices
26:30or bugs
26:32if you like
26:32inside the premises
26:34so that they could
26:35listen to conversations
26:36This surveillance
26:38is massively expensive
26:40Not only is it
26:42time consuming
26:42but finding people
26:44to follow people
26:4524 hours a day
26:47to fund
26:48the bugging
26:49of rooms
26:50of people's phones
26:51It is a huge undertaking
26:54cost wise
26:55but also
26:57in terms of manpower
26:58and
26:59is a very complicated
27:01and complex procedure
27:04To get
27:05that type of clearance
27:07to
27:08start that kind of
27:09surveillance and investigation
27:10is a massive step
27:11but you have to be very sure
27:13that you're on the right track
27:14you have to be able
27:15to demonstrate
27:15that these are the people involved
27:17We really believe strongly
27:18they're involved
27:19and we want to gather
27:20more evidence
27:21so you have to convince
27:22further up the line
27:24that this is
27:25why you're doing it
27:26that there is a valid reason
27:27for doing it
27:28and that you're confident
27:29that you will get some reward
27:30at the end
27:31to build
27:32a case against
27:34these people
27:37Meanwhile
27:38detectives on Operation Grail
27:40continued their investigation
27:41into Ian Packer
27:45They speak to another
27:47of the sex workers
27:49who says that
27:50she's been taken
27:51to a remote area
27:53by one of her customers
27:55They then
27:57decided to
27:58conduct
27:59another line up
28:01with this particular
28:03sex worker
28:04and again
28:05she picked out
28:07Ian Packer
28:10and she said
28:11that Ian Packer
28:12was someone
28:12who would have
28:13picked her up
28:14on a Monday
28:15Wednesday
28:16and a Friday
28:17and she said
28:18on one occasion
28:19he took her
28:20outside of Glasgow
28:21to a very remote location
28:23at least
28:24an hour's drive away
28:26and
28:26the police asked her
28:28could she retrace
28:30that route
28:30they were very interested
28:32in knowing exactly
28:32where Ian Packer
28:33took her
28:34and
28:35when they were
28:35going on the route
28:36she was telling
28:38the police
28:38things she remembered
28:39and lo and behold
28:40the more they went
28:42on the route
28:42those things
28:43came to be true
28:45she told him
28:46that she noticed
28:46a bus stop
28:47that she took note of
28:49because she said
28:49that Packer
28:50was taking her so far
28:51that she at one point
28:52was going to jump out
28:53of the bus stop
28:54to escape
28:54because he was
28:55getting very nervous
28:55because he was
28:56going so far
28:57off the beaten track
28:59she then noticed
29:00that at one stage
29:01they went over
29:02something that made
29:02like a
29:03a
29:04type noise
29:04well that turned out
29:05to be a
29:06cattle grid
29:11she eventually
29:12took them
29:13to the exact spot
29:14and she described
29:15seeing Christmas trees
29:16on either side
29:17of the road
29:18as she described them
29:18and she said
29:20she remembers
29:20them going up
29:21to a silver gate
29:23and she said
29:23this was the point
29:24that Packer
29:26stopped the van
29:31just to the left
29:33of that spot
29:34is where
29:35Emma Caldwell's
29:36body was found
29:39so now
29:40we have
29:41another woman
29:42who
29:43working as a prostitute
29:44has been taken
29:45to this area
29:46by the person
29:47that she's named
29:47as Ian Packer
29:48and it just so happens
29:50that that's the same
29:51location as Emma
29:52this cannot be a coincidence
29:54it can't be a coincidence
29:55and yet it still
29:56wasn't acted on
29:58they're directed
29:59from above
30:00to say
30:01Ian Packer
30:02is not our man
30:03Ian Packer
30:03will never be charged
30:04over this
30:04this is not
30:06the direction
30:07we are heading in
30:08you just get the feeling
30:09that the SIO
30:10is thinking
30:10no I want to forget
30:12that guy
30:12because
30:12the more I've got
30:14the distraction
30:14of people talking
30:15about
30:16Ian Packer
30:17I'm losing
30:19what I'm trying to gain
30:20on the individuals
30:21who I believe
30:23are responsible for it
30:23from the Turkish cafe
30:24so he tells the officer
30:26straight away
30:27go and speak to him
30:28as a witness
30:28and tell him
30:29that is it
30:30we don't need him
30:31any longer
30:31he's free to carry
30:33on his own business
30:34but when detectives
30:36visit Packer
30:36to tell him
30:37he is eliminated
30:38as a suspect
30:38he makes a shocking
30:40admission
30:43now he admits
30:44to everything
30:44yes he does know
30:45Emma
30:46he has met Emma
30:47he does use prostitutes
30:49but he didn't
30:51hurt her
30:51he's non-violent
30:52and he sticks
30:53to that type
30:54of the story
30:54but now we go back
30:56and you think
30:56these detectives
30:57must be sitting
30:57there thinking
30:58well hang on
30:59you've gone from
31:00lying to us
31:02to driving that van
31:04being possibly
31:05associated with the cable
31:07we've got witnesses
31:09who've put you
31:10at the location
31:11we've got witnesses
31:12who say you're
31:13a violent individual
31:14who's raped
31:14some of the prostitutes
31:15and now you're admitting
31:17to knowing Emma
31:18and having been with her
31:23based on Packer's confession
31:25detectives on Operation Grail
31:27make a tactical decision
31:30now they asked Packer
31:32to take them
31:33to the area
31:34where he takes the girls
31:35and he took them
31:37to exactly
31:37the same area
31:43he was within yards
31:44of where Emma's body
31:46was found
31:47now for those officers
31:48it would have been
31:49almost a surreal moment
31:50here's somebody
31:51that we suspect
31:52as being the killer
31:53and he's actually
31:54taken us
31:54to the site
31:55where the body
31:56was dumped
32:00so these detectives
32:01now had a decision
32:02to make essentially
32:04in their minds
32:05they already suspected
32:06that Packer
32:06was the killer
32:08now him taking them
32:09to the deposition site
32:10that can only firm
32:11that up
32:13how can it not be him
32:14how can all this evidence
32:16pointed to him
32:17not be right
32:18in their minds
32:19they're thinking
32:19are we missing something
32:21are we going crazy
32:22we need to take this
32:24to the bosses
32:24so that's what they did
32:27Packer has taken us
32:28to the deposition site
32:30a deposition site
32:31that we ourselves
32:32struggle to find
32:34what came back
32:35was the same thing
32:37no
32:37leave him alone
32:38it's not him
32:39we've got the right people
32:41it is not Packer
32:42I can't even begin
32:44to imagine
32:44the frustrations
32:45of those officers
32:46good detectives
32:47good experienced officers
32:49that in their minds
32:50would have been
32:50absolutely convinced
32:51at this point
32:52but were being told
32:53by senior officers
32:54no you're wrong
32:56the senior investigating officer
32:59orders the detectives
33:00pursuing Packer
33:01to stand down
33:02asserting that
33:03they have damning evidence
33:04from translated audio recordings
33:06captured during the surveillance
33:07of the Turkish case
33:08a cafe
33:10during these conversations
33:12a casino was mentioned
33:13and in fact the casino
33:14was next door
33:15to the premises
33:17they searched the casino
33:20and in the casino
33:21they found clothing
33:22that they believed
33:23to be Emma's
33:24and they also found
33:25a little key ring
33:27with a horse on it
33:28which was interesting
33:30because Emma had previously
33:31worked at the stables
33:33as a young girl
33:35police were convinced
33:36that these clothing
33:38and items
33:39did belong to Emma Colwell
33:43their final piece of evidence
33:45was found within the cafe
33:49the police when they were searching
33:50the Turkish community cafe
33:51found some bed linen
33:53and on that bed linen
33:55they found two specks of blood
33:56that blood was found
33:58to belong to Emma Colwell
34:00so there were a number of things
34:01that made the police
34:02very confident
34:03that these Turkish men
34:05were involved
34:06and ordered them to be arrested
34:07one of the officers
34:09who strongly suspected
34:10Hacker as being
34:12Emma's killer
34:13was given the task
34:15of interviewing Onku
34:17which essentially involved
34:18him playing
34:19the recordings
34:21from the cafe
34:21recordings that he had been told
34:24had been translated
34:25by the best in the business
34:27but when they played
34:29this recording
34:30to Onku
34:31he started to laugh at them
34:33saying that
34:34what you're telling me
34:35on there
34:36isn't true
34:38almost ridiculing
34:39the product
34:40ridiculing the officer
34:41putting him in a really
34:42awkward position
34:44the problem was
34:45the quality of the audio
34:47recordings weren't great
34:48and the detective himself
34:49had to concede
34:50that it sounded like
34:51a bunch of men
34:52sitting around a television
34:53chatting
34:54there was just nothing
34:55really decipherable there
34:58basically he went out
34:59and told the SIO that
35:00and told the superiors
35:01I'm not convinced
35:02this is right
35:03and they said
35:03well he's our man
35:05go back in and charge him
35:06so he did so
35:09after four million pounds
35:11had been spent
35:12on the investigation
35:12into Emma Caldwell's murder
35:14the most expensive
35:15murder inquiry
35:16ever in Scotland
35:17the four Turkish men
35:19are charged with the crime
35:20the pressure is on
35:22to secure a conviction
35:23but some detectives
35:25are convinced
35:25the killer
35:26is still walking free
35:41on May 8th 2005
35:43the body of 27 year old
35:45Emma Caldwell
35:46was discovered
35:47in a remote woodland
35:4830 miles south of Glasgow
35:50five weeks after
35:51she disappeared
35:52Strathclyde police
35:54charged four Turkish men
35:55with her murder
35:56following a major
35:57surveillance operation
35:59at their cafe
35:59making it Scotland's
36:01most expensive
36:02murder investigation
36:05police seek authority
36:07to charge the four men
36:08with Emma's murder
36:08and that's granted
36:09so they're now
36:11going to
36:12stand trial
36:13for Emma's murder
36:14and the defence team
36:16would have to look
36:17at the evidence
36:18and essentially
36:19question it
36:20test it
36:20and the main part
36:21of the evidence
36:22was these recordings
36:23from the cafe
36:25worryingly
36:26what transpired
36:27was the experts
36:29that the senior officers
36:31had used
36:32to transcribe
36:32the recordings
36:33were in fact
36:34Turkish speaking officers
36:36whose grasp of Turkish
36:38actually wasn't fluent
36:39one of the police officers
36:40whilst he was
36:41of Turkish descent
36:42he only had
36:44an O level
36:44in the subject
36:46of the Turkish language
36:47another officer
36:48again of Turkish descent
36:50had to confess
36:50that his knowledge
36:51of the language
36:52was at best
36:53limited
36:55so it was far
36:56from the best
36:57experts in the land
37:00independent translators
37:01are brought in
37:01to transcribe
37:02the recordings
37:03in preparation
37:03for the trial
37:05the independent experts
37:07come in
37:07they listen to the recordings
37:09and they say
37:12what is alleged
37:13to have been said
37:14here
37:14is not obvious
37:15we can't say
37:17that this is
37:17what is being said
37:18it's quite clear
37:19that none of us
37:20this is being said
37:21the other situation
37:23was that yes
37:24Emma Colwell's blood
37:25was found
37:26in the Turkish cafe
37:27but you have to remember
37:28that police knew
37:30that sex workers
37:31had been taken there
37:32in the past
37:33that does not necessarily
37:34prove that she was
37:36killed there
37:36the other issue
37:38in regards to the clothing
37:39and key ring
37:40found at the casino
37:42they were never
37:44100% confirmed
37:45to belong to Emma Colwell
37:46the police found them
37:47and put two and two together
37:49and thought
37:49well these have to be Emma's
37:50but they were never
37:51independently verified
37:53as having belonged
37:54to Emma Colwell
37:55at this point
37:56obviously that line
37:56of inquiry
37:57has completely collapsed
38:00which is unusual
38:01because generally speaking
38:05all the evidence
38:07is checked
38:08and double checked
38:09to make sure
38:10that we've got it right
38:12this strand of the inquiry
38:14collapsed very very quickly
38:19you've now got
38:20the whole situation here
38:21that you've got
38:22the money being spent
38:24the four million pounds
38:25that have been spent
38:26on this operation alone
38:27not the original
38:28Operation Grail
38:29so what do they do
38:31we've got the wrong people
38:32we've got no evidence
38:33it's fallen through
38:34what do we do
38:35it's quite an embarrassment
38:37for that SIO
38:40hindsight is a wonderful thing
38:41it's not like this was
38:42built on no foundations
38:44this was built on
38:45some foundation
38:46the problem was
38:47that it went further
38:49than what it should have
38:50if the police had got
38:51the independent experts
38:53in at an earlier stage
38:54to make the translations
38:56and to transcribe
38:57the audio recordings
38:58and if they had turned around
38:59and said
39:00this is not going to get
39:01the court
39:01we can't hear anything
39:02this is not what is being said
39:03this is inaccurate
39:06it may not have went as far
39:07the situation now was
39:10that the evidence
39:11they had against
39:11these four men
39:12was essentially rubbished
39:15meaning that the case
39:17against them collapsed
39:18they were now to be released
39:19it is strange
39:20and questionable
39:21as to when the Turkish men
39:25are eliminated
39:26and exonerated
39:27as suspects
39:28that they didn't return
39:29to the alternative
39:31and a very strong suspect
39:33in Ian Packer
39:34that in itself
39:36is strange
39:37because there was
39:38so much
39:39pointing to Packer
39:43Though suspicion
39:44remains towards Packer
39:46nothing happens
39:47for almost 15 years
39:50In 2019
39:52Ian Packer
39:53approaches the BBC
39:55and he approaches
39:56a well-known journalist
39:57called Samantha Pauling
39:58and he wants to
40:00tell his side
40:01of the story
40:02he wants to clear
40:02his name
40:03and he feels
40:05her interviewing him
40:06is the best way
40:07to achieve that
40:08In the production
40:10of this particular
40:11documentary
40:12Ian Packer decides
40:14that he will
40:15voluntarily
40:15appear
40:16and openly admits
40:18that he knows
40:18Emma
40:19openly admits
40:20that he uses
40:22prostitutes
40:23but says
40:24he is never
40:25being violent
40:26towards them
40:26and he certainly
40:27has never raped
40:28any of them
40:29if
40:29Ian Packer
40:31had been raised
40:31as a suspect
40:32by detectives
40:34originally
40:36one of the processes
40:37that they would go
40:37through
40:38is to build up
40:39a picture
40:39of his life
40:40trying to understand
40:42if there's a pattern
40:42of behaviour
40:43that didn't take place
40:45because he wasn't
40:46raised as a suspect
40:47but those
40:48making the documentary
40:50went through
40:51that process
40:52trying to build up
40:53that picture
40:53of him
40:54What Samantha Pauline
40:56did was
40:56Samantha Pauline
40:57went and spoke
40:57to as many people
40:58as she could
40:59about Ian Packer
41:00and far from a man
41:02who denied
41:02being sexually violent
41:04or abusive
41:04to women
41:05who had never
41:06raped a woman
41:07who had never
41:07hurt a woman
41:08she found
41:09a truckload
41:09of circumstantial evidence
41:11from people
41:12who had had
41:13experiences
41:14with Ian Packer
41:15very negative experiences
41:16one sex worker
41:17told her
41:18that Ian Packer
41:19had got her
41:20inside his van
41:21and had attempted
41:21to strangle her
41:22and she was only
41:23saved when a security
41:24guard banged
41:25on the van
41:26and she managed
41:26to escape
41:27another one
41:28told about
41:29being taken
41:29behind some shops
41:31Ian Packer
41:32had tried to force
41:33her onto her knees
41:34and she managed
41:35to escape
41:36and when she was
41:36running down the street
41:37Packer was running
41:38after her
41:38shouting threats
41:40she was building
41:42this picture
41:42of a very
41:43very dangerous man
41:44someone that was
41:45controlling
41:46someone that was
41:46aggressive
41:47and someone
41:47that was violent
41:53a woman
41:54called Magdalene
41:54Roberts
41:55is interviewed
41:55as part of
41:56the documentary
41:57she knew Packer
41:58when she was a child
42:00Ian Packer
42:01had become a friend
42:02to her family
42:03and she had
42:05a very disturbing
42:06experience
42:07with Ian Packer
42:08to tell
42:09she said that
42:10Packer would
42:12sexually harass her
42:13and she's 14 years
42:14of age
42:15at this point
42:15he would sexually
42:16harass her
42:17he would
42:19intimidate her
42:19she would wake up
42:20in the middle of the night
42:21to find him standing
42:22by her bed
42:23staring at her
42:24that then escalates
42:26to him sexually
42:27assaulting Magdalene
42:28and eventually
42:29raping her
42:30in her own home
42:33she told her
42:34family
42:35what had happened
42:36and they
42:37basically said
42:38you know
42:39you're making it up
42:40but they didn't really
42:41believe her
42:41but 10 months
42:43after the murder
42:44of Emma Caldwell
42:45Magdalene Roberts
42:47reports
42:48her rape
42:49by Ian Packer
42:50to the police
42:51and the police
42:52unfortunately
42:54do nothing
42:55with it
42:57on camera
42:58Samantha Poling
42:59confronts
43:00Ian Packer
43:00with her findings
43:01his decision
43:02to participate
43:03in the documentary
43:04would be his downfall
43:07whilst he's happy
43:08to say
43:08yes I knew Emma
43:09yes I visit
43:10sex workers
43:11what he's not expecting
43:12is the fact that
43:13hang on a minute
43:14we know you're violent
43:15we know you're a rapist
43:16we know that you've
43:17actually committed rape
43:18we know
43:19that you actually
43:20raped a girl
43:20when she was 14
43:21he is sitting there
43:23being hit with everything
43:24and that must have
43:25taken him by surprise
43:26he was dumbfounded
43:29and really taken aback
43:31when she told him
43:33that she believed
43:33he was a dangerous man
43:34and that he was
43:35dangerous to women
43:36and that he had
43:37lied to her
43:38and that he had
43:39questions to answer
43:40regarding the death
43:40of Emma Caldwell
43:42shortly after
43:43the documentary
43:44is published
43:4513 years
43:46after Emma's murder
43:47an ex-partner
43:48of Packer
43:49comes forward
43:49and tells police
43:50that he had
43:51attacked her
43:53he actually was
43:54jailed
43:54for attacking
43:55his former partner
43:57he then subsequently
43:59post that
44:00is charged
44:01with the murder
44:02of Emma Caldwell
44:02and the interviews
44:04he give
44:04to Samantha Pauline
44:06form part
44:07of the evidence
44:08Ian can you describe
44:10the relationship
44:10to me with Emma Caldwell
44:13could you provide
44:14a description
44:15of Emma to me
44:17can you confirm
44:18when you first met
44:21on the 28th of February
44:232022
44:24Ian Packer
44:26was convicted
44:27of Emma's murder
44:29and he was also
44:30convicted of
44:3133 other counts
44:33relating to assaults
44:35sexual assaults
44:36and over his lifetime
44:37he had targeted
44:39and attacked
44:3922 women
44:41Ian Packer
44:42was sentenced
44:43to life imprisonment
44:44with a minimum term
44:46of 36 years
44:47it has turned out
44:48that he has
44:50become one of the
44:51most prolific
44:52rapists and sex offenders
44:53in modern Scottish history
44:55he has
44:57put himself
45:00in the frame
45:01for a murder
45:03that he committed
45:04some many years ago
45:06and I find it astonishing
45:09that he would do
45:10such a thing
45:12and unbelievable
45:12when I look at
45:14Ian Packer
45:15I see a sexual predator
45:17who was driven
45:19by his need
45:20for power
45:22and control
45:22over vulnerable women
45:24sex workers
45:2514 year old girl
45:26people that he could
45:28easily prey on
45:29and the fact
45:31that he was allowed
45:32to keep carrying on
45:33his crimes
45:34he was almost
45:35emboldened
45:35and I think
45:36that's the biggest
45:37tragedy here
45:38of how many victims
45:40that fell foul
45:42of him
45:43when they didn't
45:44need to
45:45for the family
45:46they would have
45:47undoubtedly
45:47mixed feelings
45:49about his conviction
45:50they would be
45:51that satisfaction
45:52that eventually
45:53someone has faced
45:54justice for Emma's
45:55murder
45:56but
45:57he was allowed
45:58to live
45:59for that interim
46:00period
46:00he was allowed
46:01out and about
46:02to live his life
46:03a life that Emma
46:03will never lead
46:05to be
46:19that
46:20is
46:30going to be
46:31out and
46:31in a time
46:33for this
46:33night
46:33and
46:33here
46:33as
46:34as
46:34as
46:34as
46:34as
46:34as
47:02Transcription by CastingWords
47:04CastingWords
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