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Can We Make Tourism Sustainable
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00:02Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:30This is particularly important, we find, for Gen Z travelers, for whom sustainability of accommodation is among the top selection
00:41criteria, even ahead of the brand of the hotel that they're looking to stay in.
00:47And we also see now that we've heard 20% of people are saying that they're even cutting back on
00:53travel in an effort to be more sustainable.
00:56So, how do we tackle sustainability in travel is a challenge not just for the planet, but indeed for the
01:03future of the tourism sector as a whole.
01:06My name is Ivan Gladson, I'm an associate partner at McKinsey in our tourism practice based in Riyadh.
01:13And it's my pleasure today to be joined by a panel that brings together public sector, private sector, and academic
01:21experience.
01:22So, with that, I'll just introduce our wonderful panelists.
01:25To my left, I'm joined by Alexandre Dublange.
01:29Alexandre is chairwoman of Choose Paris region and vice president in charge of recovery, attractiveness, economic development, and innovation there.
01:38To Alexandre's left, we have Professor Marina Nadelli, who is director of the Sustainable Travel and Tourism Advanced Research Center
01:47at the University of Nottingham Business School.
01:50In addition to that, Marina is also an alternate member of the UNWTO World Committee on Tourism Ethics, and a
01:58member of the World Economic Forum Global Future Council for Sustainable Tourism.
02:03In those capacities, she advises international development agencies, national, regional governments, as well as private and third sector organizations on
02:12sustainability in travel.
02:14And last but not least, we have Zina Ben-Sheikh, who is managing director, EMEA, for Intrepid Travel.
02:21Intrepid is one of the world's largest adventure travel companies, and interestingly, is also a certified B Corp.
02:28Perhaps Zina can talk a little bit more about that.
02:31Zina brings a background in finance, joined Intrepid in 2010, and has progressed through a number of leadership roles until
02:41becoming the leader of the EMEA business there.
02:44Perhaps, just to kick us off, Marina, would you like to set out what sustainability actually means in tourism?
02:52This is a word that gets bandied around, but what does it mean for the tourism sector?
02:56Well, that's a good question, because recently there have been a number of elaborations about what sustainable tourism is.
03:04And without going back to the 80s, when the concept was really much promoted,
03:10I would like to use just the example of a stall with three legs, right?
03:14The seating area is your destination.
03:17The three legs are the economy, the people, and the environment.
03:22If any of those three legs get a bit wobbly, the destination will fall.
03:28So, sustainability is about making sure the balance exists, and that balance is not only, I would say, promoted by
03:38those selling tourism,
03:41but it's about DMOs, so destination management organization, and also the people of those places, which very often are forgotten.
03:48So, sustainability is pretty much about maintaining that balance and making sure when we go on holiday as consumers,
03:56and when we sell holidays as providers, we make sure that we actually bear those balances in mind.
04:03Economics, having just a balance sheet in our mind, is not the future.
04:08And certainly in a context like this, where technology is at the base, there is a lot being said about
04:13what technology can do,
04:15and we will talk about it later.
04:17Thank you.
04:18And Zina, thinking about when you come to design trips, how do you keep that stall in balance,
04:24both for your participants, for the travelers that you take, as well as for the destinations that you take them
04:29to?
04:30Well, Intrepid has been created 35 years ago with the idea that a form of tourism that can be beneficial
04:37for the destinations
04:38and the local people, to your point, Marina, should exist and can exist.
04:42And what we pretty much do is we take travelers in small groups, in destinations, in taking them, staying in
04:51locally owned places,
04:53using the public transport when possible, live like local people, so they can minimize the impact on the environment,
04:58while having a truly authentic experience.
05:00We do that by using local guides and local tour leaders.
05:05We take our travelers to the most remote areas, as well as the most visited places.
05:10But even when going to those visited places, we try to do it as locals.
05:13We do, we eat in local places, we shop in the local places.
05:17We do that using a range of offices around the world that are owned by Intrepid, but that are run
05:22by locals.
05:23All of our offices and our DMCs, as we call in the language of tourism, are run locally and enabled
05:29to create those ties with the communities,
05:32which will enable to make sure that we minimize the economic leakage, as well as our style of travel.
05:38And Alexandre, from a DMO perspective, what is it that Paris is doing to make sure that travel is as
05:46sustainable as possible,
05:47a contributor to the city's development?
05:51Today, Paris region is the first destination in the world for tourists.
05:56We welcome every year 50 million tourists, but we want to become also the best destination in the world.
06:03And sustainability plays a big role in this.
06:08A lot of what Zina just said, we are trying to do it.
06:11So we help tourists to lower their carbon footprint.
06:14Transportation, transportation, public transportation is very important in this matter.
06:21So we increase it.
06:23We also promote destinations, because Paris region is not only Paris, right?
06:28So we promote also destination sites, accessible through public transportation, through bike, even.
06:37And then we also help tourism professionals with good practices to lower their carbon footprint.
06:47So it goes from, yeah, guides to help them with water management, with everything that can help them with energy,
06:58also reducing the energy use.
07:01And so we have this both level, helping tourists and helping tourism professionals and with concrete tools.
07:11So, obviously, the role of the DMOs is important.
07:15I think we've mentioned transport, logistics providers as well.
07:18Who are some of the other parties that you collaborate with, Zina, in putting together your trips,
07:23who are critical to make sure that these are as sustainable as they can be?
07:27I often like to say that we can't solve the climate change problem,
07:32especially when it comes to tourism by ourselves, the private sector.
07:35And so we're big believers in creating meaningful relationships with all the different parties in the travel ecosystem.
07:43And DMOs play a very important role in that sense.
07:47When DMOs are aligned with our values, the example of Paris, I think, is a very good one.
07:51It helps our work.
07:52So if we want to be able to take customers, travelers to travel the local way, use public transport,
07:58we need those public transport to be available.
08:00There are destinations that are doing a really good move in removing internal flights.
08:05France, as an example, to whenever there is a very good infrastructure, train infrastructure available.
08:11And that's what we use on our trips.
08:13And Europe is actually, in general, a very, very good area to operate.
08:16But there are destinations that are also very far behind.
08:19And our role is to help them in that educational process, to support them, to partner with them,
08:26so they start to realize that there is value in travelers that come in less numbers but spend more time,
08:33that travel our style, that go around the destination to the most remote areas, not just to the bucket list.
08:39All of these things are now more and more important for the different stakeholders in the tourism ecosystem to understand.
08:48And we are finding it now very critical, and we're working more and more with DMOs to help to create
08:54that awareness and create partnerships in this sense.
08:57And Marina, perhaps drawing on some of your work, who have you seen doing this particularly well around the world,
09:03bringing together these different stakeholders that Zina mentioned to great effect?
09:10Right, well, I'm certainly pleased to be sitting on this panel with Zina,
09:15because I often use Intrepid as an example, so obviously she gave an example of how they do that.
09:21I think there are, without just going into the details of specific organizations doing that,
09:27what is very important is to identify a pocket of excellence where collaborations are happening.
09:34And, I mean, by way of example, you know, I'm using this bottle today,
09:44which I was given at reception in an hotel in Victoria Falls when I checked in,
09:50and I was told that obviously I could scan the code that is behind here,
09:55in seven stations across Victoria Falls destinations, including Victoria Falls Heritage Site.
10:02And, again, this is a great example where technology comes into the picture,
10:07and obviously DMOs, private sector, and obviously scientists behind it have come together to say,
10:13we can do this to avoid the use of plastic, for instance.
10:17Now, and I would like to pick on something that Zina just mentioned.
10:21Isabel, she mentioned the word education.
10:25Obviously, tour operator educate travelers while on the experience.
10:29I think what is very important in terms of collaborating,
10:33and this is where a lot of the work we do in universities,
10:37because people say, what do you actually do in university?
10:40You know, what does a professor of tourism does, right?
10:43It's about creating those synergies between various organizations across the value chain.
10:49And so what we do, we are behind those decisions, right?
10:52We do work with, in trying to find solutions that can make the sector more sustainable.
10:58Another example that I could use is a recent project I've been running in South Africa and Kenya
11:04with colleagues from the private sector, third sector organization, and government
11:08in looking at how to accelerate entrepreneurship.
11:12Because, again, the workforce you have got in the sector is another important element
11:17that is going to be providing that service that you all require when you travel.
11:22And, of course, another element which sometimes is forgotten in the three-leg approach
11:29that I mentioned at the beginning is the people that work in tourism.
11:33If we don't make those people working in tourism, if we don't professionalize the sector,
11:39you know, the sector will never be sustainable.
11:41Because, at the end of the day, you know, we need to make sure that those people
11:46that are on the other side of our holiday are happy with what they do.
11:51They do have a fair pay.
11:53And, of course, there is a career progress in that.
11:56So, to go back to your question, when we talk about collaboration,
12:01we need to make sure that DMOs, private sector, and academia come together
12:06to look at what has been done, what are the best practices.
12:09Because there is a lot, actually, already happening globally.
12:11And, sometimes, I feel that there is almost like a reinventing the wheel approach
12:15just for the sake of.
12:16So, it's about communicating, sharing practice,
12:20and, of course, it's an educational process.
12:23It doesn't only happen in educational institutions,
12:28but it does happen on the job and while we are traveling.
12:32Now, we've spoken a little bit about the importance of sustainability
12:36to the stakeholders, to the destinations, to the people,
12:39to the local communities who live in those destinations.
12:41I just want to come back a little bit and pressure test
12:44its real importance to consumers, to the people actually going on trips.
12:49Zina, you obviously have a perspective on this.
12:52Do you really see this being a key buying factor for people coming to Intrepid?
12:57Or how does it compete also with price pressures that we've seen in recent years,
13:01given inflation?
13:02Have we seen, perhaps, sustainability slip down the agenda a little bit
13:06in people's minds?
13:08How do you see that playing out in your customers' choices?
13:12That's a great question.
13:13Can I add a pillar to your model?
13:15I think the customer is the fourth pillar.
13:17Absolutely needs to be in the center.
13:19Because customers can drive the change.
13:21In reality, it's that customers are not aware.
13:24There is a lack of education, not just across the DMO, the public center,
13:28but there is a lack of awareness with the consumer.
13:31And what we're finding as a tour operator,
13:34we were very, very niche 35 years ago.
13:36And until now, I'm not sure how many people heard of Intrepid in this room.
13:40Probably not many.
13:41While we are the largest adventure travel operator in the world.
13:44And I think...
13:45Can we just have a show of hands in the audience?
13:48Who here has been on an Intrepid trip?
13:51Who are Intrepid travelers?
13:53I think we have one at the back.
13:54Yes, your hand.
13:55Okay.
13:58So my point, you see, is to say that what we have experienced over the years
14:05is that our growth was fueled by great product, value for money, good marketing,
14:14you know, accessing fast-growing market.
14:17I mean, travel is a mega trend.
14:19So there's more and more people traveling
14:20and also more and more people looking for experiences.
14:22And that's our core.
14:23What we offer is experiences.
14:25What happens, though, is when our customers go on an Intrepid trip for the first time,
14:29there is a real educational process that happens
14:31that converts them to a style of travel that they find not only more positive,
14:36but also a better experience overall.
14:39And in fact, it's what actually brings the repeat customer
14:42and what makes us more fit for the longer term
14:47and future-proofing of our business.
14:48And to your other point around the generations,
14:52you mentioned Gen Z is the more aware of, we thought so as well,
14:57but the reality is the fastest-growing part of our,
15:00or the fastest-growing market in our customer base is the baby boomer.
15:04So the plus 55, 60 years old who have time and money to spend
15:09and actually want to travel slowlier and discover, immerse themselves in destinations.
15:13So I think that climate change now is becoming more than a reality.
15:17People are pretty clearly facing the impact of it on the holidays.
15:21We've seen it over the summer in southern part of Europe
15:24and all over the world with all the climate catastrophes.
15:27So people are now, from any age, conscious of it
15:30and are making conscious decisions to travel differently.
15:34So I won't say it's one generation over another.
15:36It's really across all the different markets.
15:39It's interesting what you say.
15:41So actually then, if we want to convert people to more sustainable travel,
15:45the way to get them there is perhaps to preach a little bit less about sustainability,
15:50but to actually bring them on trips where they can experience the importance of it
15:53in the destinations that they...
15:55Absolutely. And it's our motto.
15:57We put joy in travel above sustainability.
15:59We don't promote ourselves as a sustainable travel company,
16:03but as a company that offers great experiences.
16:06Interesting.
16:07And just bringing us back to the here and now,
16:10we're obviously in Paris.
16:11The Olympics are just a few weeks away.
16:14I think we can all see the preparations well underway around the city.
16:18Alexandre, what is it that Paris is doing specifically in relation to the Olympics
16:23to make sure that this is as sustainable a tourism event as can be
16:28and that it benefits the city, not just in the environmental,
16:31but also social and other dimensions that contribute to sustainability.
16:36Yes, you're right.
16:37The Olympics are a huge milestone for us.
16:40It's also a demonstrator.
16:41It's an opportunity for us to show to the world what we are capable of
16:45and also in terms of sustainability.
16:49One of the main arguments when we applied to welcome the Olympics
16:53was really to welcome sustainable games.
16:57And it will, of course, happen.
16:59It goes again through public transportation.
17:02Right now, you know that in the Paris region,
17:05we have the fourth more dense public transportation network in the world
17:09and we will double it.
17:11We will double the Paris metro.
17:14Of course, Parisians are not so happy
17:16because you have constructions everywhere,
17:18but it will be so great for the future
17:20and a part of the material heritage of the game.
17:24So doubling a Parisian metro, also bike paths.
17:28You can see also it's developing in all the other regions.
17:33But also in the Olympic sites,
17:36there is huge innovation linked to sustainability.
17:41For instance, the Olympic village will transform into 2,000 housing units
17:47that will stay for people living here
17:49with energy efficiency, top energy efficiency.
17:56You will have also the Olympic pool
18:01which is the first solar farm in France on top of it.
18:06So things like this that we will show to the world within the Olympic village.
18:12And also I want to say something else.
18:14We talk a lot about energy sustainability,
18:17but sustainability for us is also how we transform huge neighborhoods.
18:22We are the first economic region in Europe,
18:26but we are a very diverse region
18:28with some areas with social needs.
18:33And 75% of the investments are happening
18:37in one of the poorest parts of the Paris region,
18:40which is Saint-Saint-Denis,
18:42which will see really neighborhoods completely change.
18:45And for us, this is also part of the sustainability
18:47and bringing also later tourists to this area
18:51that they don't know at all
18:53because we are transforming them.
18:55And we are very involved in not bringing the tourists
18:59always to the same places.
19:01Of course, we love our Eiffel Tower, the Louvre and so on,
19:04but Paris region is so much more.
19:07And so these neighborhoods that are being transformed,
19:10thanks to the Olympics,
19:12but not only because this is a long-term job, of course,
19:15will help bring tourists to other parts of the region.
19:19And this is a great thing for us, of course,
19:23and hopefully for our next tourists.
19:26I think that's a very important point you mentioned here,
19:29spreading out tourists,
19:31not just to spread out the benefits
19:34of having visitors come to a place,
19:37but also address some of the overcrowding issues
19:39that we're beginning to see
19:40in some tourism hotspots in the world.
19:43Marina, how much of a threat is overcrowding
19:47having too many tourists concentrated in one place
19:50at a given time
19:51do you see to the sustainability of the industry?
19:53We've obviously seen events in the Canary Islands
19:55in recent weeks where there have been protests
19:57against the perceived ill effects of overtourism there.
20:01What do you see destinations doing in this regard
20:03and what more can they do to address this growing challenge?
20:09Right.
20:10Well, before I answer your question,
20:12I would like also to be a bit controversial
20:14to what Zina just said.
20:17Yes, there are a lot of people
20:19who are changing their practice.
20:20They want to be more sustainable.
20:23I've just come back from Orlando, Florida,
20:26where I was obviously walking
20:28in the wonderful Disney Springs
20:33and for me it was a bit of a matrix experience, right?
20:37Professional Sustainable Tourism,
20:39you just come to realise that actually
20:41there are a lot of people
20:42who don't really care about sustainability.
20:44All they want is to have a great time
20:47and a great destination
20:48and Orlando, Florida is certainly a great destination,
20:51not for the type of tourists
20:53that would go on an intrepid travel experience.
20:57So what we need to do is
20:59to make sure that we do address also that market
21:04and I'm going to just say how later,
21:06maybe in one of your next questions.
21:08So I think it's important to bear that in mind
21:11because that then also is the precondition
21:15for one of the issues you just raised
21:17about overcrowding and over-tourism, right?
21:20You know, people want to have their ticking box,
21:23you know, their bucket list,
21:25you know, the Venice experience,
21:27the kind of destination that you must go and visit.
21:32And of course we are seeing a lot of,
21:36I would say, short-termistic solutions
21:41I mean, going back to Victoria Falls
21:45where I was recently,
21:48the fee to get into Victoria Falls
21:50has been raised from $20 to $50, right?
21:53So it's an hefty increase of price,
21:56thinking that maybe that could be a solution
21:59to overcrowding.
22:01It is not.
22:01So the bottom line is that is about,
22:06first of all, there is a solution that fits all.
22:08So every destination, every attraction,
22:11every city, every coastal area
22:13requires a very important,
22:16I would say an ad hoc approach
22:18in how we deal with the issue.
22:20And there is another very important element
22:23which is to do with the consumer behavior understanding
22:26because we may want to invite somebody
22:29who can afford to visit the Acropolis in Athens
22:32and pay $1,000 to get in.
22:36But does that really resolve the problem?
22:38Because at the end of the day,
22:40if the current capacity of a place
22:42states that X amount of visitors can come in,
22:46do we have that power to then discuss
22:50with the DMOs, with the private sector
22:52and say, enough?
22:54One good example, for instance,
22:56to avoid overcrowding
22:57and the negative impact of tourism
22:59is what happens in niche destinations
23:02like Rwanda,
23:03where you do go and see the gorilla, right?
23:06You know that there are only two or three groups
23:08that can be visited,
23:11in terms of gorilla, I mean.
23:13And you have an X amount of visitors.
23:15I mean, when I visited myself,
23:17it was a maximum nine people per visit.
23:20Of course, it's very expensive.
23:23It's one of the examples for natural-based tourism.
23:27For urban-based tourism,
23:29there are other solutions.
23:30It could be a staggered approach.
23:32I mean, we've seen what is happening
23:33in places like, for instance, Croatia,
23:36in some of the Lord of the Rings destinations.
23:38You know, they are trying to
23:40kind of manage flow of people.
23:42What, obviously, Alexandra said
23:44about trying to expand, for instance,
23:48the attractiveness of the urban destination
23:51like Paris,
23:52but actually kind of diffuse
23:53the crowds into locations.
23:59But we need to also be very careful
24:01that it doesn't happen
24:02what is happening, for instance,
24:03in Barcelona,
24:04where some of the neighbourhoods
24:07who were not prepared
24:08to actually welcome visitors
24:10have been suffering dramatically by that.
24:13So, again, the issue of overcrowding
24:16over-tourism is a very complex one
24:18that needs very careful consideration.
24:21There are a number of studies
24:22which have been undertaken,
24:24but then again,
24:25I think the responsibility
24:26lays in the conversation
24:28that DMOs are having
24:30with community representation.
24:33The protests that we are actually seeing
24:36happening across Europe at the moment
24:38is just the tip of the iceberg.
24:41The reality is that these issues
24:43have been well, you know,
24:46traversed for a long time.
24:47There are organisations,
24:49like, for instance,
24:50I was part of a study by Airbnb,
24:53a white paper on regulating
24:54the short-term let market in the UK,
24:58which is currently in Parliament.
25:00And again, there is a will
25:03by the private sector
25:04to collaborate and try to find solutions.
25:07It's about having the time,
25:09the commitment,
25:10and obviously the bold,
25:12I would say,
25:13approach to say enough.
25:15And I don't think a five euros fee
25:17on the entry to Venice
25:19is going to be the solution,
25:20to be honest.
25:22Thank you for being the bad cop
25:24on the panel.
25:26Always the bad cop.
25:27Yeah, I mean,
25:28I do want to say
25:30on your experience in Orlando
25:31and to my point earlier
25:33and asking the audience
25:34if anyone heard of Intrepid,
25:35I think my point was
25:36I didn't hear of Intrepid
25:37before 2010
25:38and I went on my first trip
25:39to Thailand in 2010
25:41after I joined
25:42and both my husband and I
25:44got converted
25:44to this style of travel immediately.
25:47And we immediately
25:47made decisions
25:49that we're still applying now
25:50and teaching our kids
25:52what to do,
25:53you know,
25:54when it comes to animal welfare,
25:55why they shouldn't be
25:56riding elephants,
25:57why we shouldn't go to sea life,
26:00and et cetera, you know.
26:02The reality is that
26:03we didn't know that.
26:03We're quite educated,
26:04but we didn't know that.
26:06So I wouldn't blame
26:06the masses and the public,
26:08but I think we would invest
26:09more in the awareness
26:10and that's one part
26:12and one part of the solution.
26:13I'm also very aware
26:14that not everyone
26:15is an Intrepid traveler.
26:16Not everyone wants
26:17to go on a small group tour,
26:18not everyone wants
26:19to get in an adventure,
26:20but there's alternatives.
26:21There's so many different ways
26:22to travel more responsibly,
26:24but it's about awareness,
26:25about being able to know.
26:26And then it's about
26:27also having the possibility
26:29to enable the private sector
26:31to build those type of products.
26:33And this is where
26:34the destinations,
26:35the DMOs,
26:35and the public sector
26:36has to play a role.
26:37And going to your example
26:39on Venice and Rwanda,
26:40and we can name many of them,
26:43Bhutan is a very good example
26:44as well with very high tax
26:46to be able to enter the country,
26:47but then the experience
26:48is the most authentic in the world
26:49and it's very cheap.
26:51The reality is I think
26:52Venice should have a tax entry,
26:54especially for cruiser,
26:55and it needs to be very, very high.
26:57Because what happens
26:58with the five euro a day
26:59for cruise visitors
27:00is us two operators
27:02who go to Venice
27:03in a very, very immersive,
27:04sustainable, authentic way,
27:06we're not competing.
27:07So we can't attract
27:08as many customers
27:10as the cruisers would be
27:11because our prices
27:12of our products
27:13might be too expensive,
27:14while they're a much better product
27:15for the people of Venice.
27:17So I think there's solutions.
27:18It's no one solution fit all,
27:20but all of the solutions
27:21need to be investigated
27:23and looked at
27:24and the public sector
27:25needs to really help us
27:27to get toward the solution.
27:29Yeah.
27:30I would like to complete
27:31exactly what you said
27:32and also the need
27:34to involve neighborhoods.
27:37You know,
27:37you were talking about
27:38neighborhoods not so happy,
27:39for instance,
27:40in some areas,
27:42seeing all these stories
27:43because they are not prepared.
27:44Of course,
27:45this is the first job
27:47what we are doing.
27:48We are,
27:48as a public authority,
27:49we are helping
27:51all these neighborhoods
27:52that want to benefit
27:53also from the Paris attraction
27:55and are a little bit frustrated
27:56sometimes to see
27:57all the tourists
27:58in always the same site
27:59and not benefiting
28:00from it economically.
28:03We work with them.
28:04We work with them.
28:05We prepare the routes.
28:07We prepare the public transportation.
28:09We prepare also
28:10the destination,
28:11what people can see.
28:12and we do it only
28:15with their consent,
28:16of course,
28:17and working with
28:19all these neighborhoods
28:19is very important.
28:21And also,
28:22this is a demand
28:23of all the repeaters.
28:24When we see
28:25American tourists,
28:26which is the first
28:27tourist in the Paris region,
28:29they tell us
28:30we want to see
28:31something else.
28:32So,
28:32it is also answering
28:34to the demand
28:35of tourists
28:36coming to Paris,
28:38to Paris region.
28:38and so,
28:41making demand
28:42and offer meat
28:44is our job,
28:45I think,
28:45and helping them.
28:47And,
28:47Alexandra,
28:48I hear in Zena
28:49and Marina's answers
28:50quite a lot of responsibility
28:52being put on the shoulders
28:53of the public sector
28:54here to address
28:56the issues
28:56of too much tourism
28:58and some of the ill effects
28:59that overcrowding
29:01can bring.
29:03Do you have a view
29:05on when enough
29:06is going to be enough
29:07in terms of visitor numbers
29:08to Paris?
29:09Obviously,
29:09France is already
29:10the most visited country
29:11in the world.
29:12Paris is up there
29:14with the most visited cities
29:15in the world.
29:17Do you have any idea
29:18when is too much
29:20of a good thing
29:20indeed going to be too much
29:22and any stricter measures
29:24perhaps along the lines
29:25of the examples
29:26that Marina gave
29:28that Paris is considering introducing?
29:30So,
29:31as I was saying,
29:32we are the first
29:32and you just tell us
29:35but we don't want
29:36to welcome more
29:37and more
29:38and more
29:38and more
29:39and even more tourists.
29:4050 million
29:41is quite okay
29:42but we want
29:43to improve
29:44on the quality.
29:46We work a lot
29:46with tourism professionals
29:48to help them
29:50increase the level
29:51of service
29:51and this is more
29:53of focus
29:53as a public authority
29:55than increasing
29:55always the number
29:57of tourists.
29:57This is absolutely
29:58not our goal.
30:00This is really
30:00welcome people
30:02coming here
30:02better and better.
30:04so this goes
30:05from training
30:06our professionals
30:07with languages
30:08also how you welcome
30:11people with disabilities.
30:14So,
30:15this is our main focus
30:16not increasing
30:17this number
30:18because we see
30:19in some French destinations
30:20this was a big issue
30:22this summer
30:23and I can understand
30:26that it has become
30:27very difficult
30:28for especially
30:29very small cities
30:30that are very touristic
30:31but so that's why
30:33we focus on
30:34expanding
30:35the potential
30:36of the Paris region
30:37showing tourists
30:38they can go
30:39also discover
30:41amazing castles
30:43in the Paris region
30:44and not only
30:45in the center of Paris
30:46and also increasing
30:49the quality.
30:51And Marina
30:52just coming back
30:53to you
30:53you mentioned
30:53interestingly
30:54the concept
30:56of the carrying capacity
30:57of a destination.
30:59I think Alexandra
31:00is mentioning
31:01how that carrying
31:02capacity can be
31:03can be increased
31:04by spreading tourists
31:05into new areas
31:06and adjacent regions
31:08but for places
31:09which have
31:10absolutely reached
31:11that carrying capacity
31:12but still want to
31:14benefit from tourism
31:15how do you see
31:16them moving towards
31:17gaining better
31:19more value
31:19from the tourists
31:20that they bring
31:21within that
31:23carrying capacity.
31:24I think Zina
31:25you mentioned
31:25the interesting
31:26case of cruise
31:28visitors
31:28who typically
31:29do not bring
31:30as much value
31:31as other tourists
31:32indeed I think
31:33Amsterdam has now
31:34just banned cruises
31:35altogether
31:36given that they're
31:37pretty close to
31:38reaching their
31:38carrying capacity
31:39when it comes to
31:40tourists
31:41but what other
31:42measures do you see
31:42working in this
31:44regard
31:44to increase the
31:45value that
31:45destinations can get
31:46from a capped
31:48number of tourists?
31:49Right
31:50I think it's
31:51very important
31:52to put a
31:55precondition
31:56to that
31:57potential
31:58idea of
31:59increasing the
32:00yield of
32:01visitors
32:03existing visitors
32:04within limits
32:05of carrying
32:06capacity
32:07and that is
32:08we need to be
32:09very careful
32:10that we
32:10don't make
32:12tourism
32:12undemocratic
32:13by just simply
32:14raising prices
32:16which is very
32:17often
32:17the first
32:19solutions
32:20that people
32:21think of
32:22so having
32:23said that
32:24I think
32:25what is
32:25important
32:26is to
32:26create
32:27a more
32:28inclusive
32:28value chain
32:29so for
32:30instance
32:31in some
32:31of the
32:32projects
32:32I've been
32:32working
32:33at the
32:33moment
32:33is to
32:34do
32:35with
32:36creating
32:36more
32:37agility
32:37in
32:38employment
32:38and making
32:39people
32:40more
32:40creative
32:41in the
32:42way
32:42they seek
32:43employment
32:44in the
32:44sector
32:45by being
32:45entrepreneurs
32:47and why
32:48am I
32:48saying
32:48that
32:48because
32:49then
32:49if we
32:50are able
32:51to create
32:52a value
32:52chain
32:53which is
32:53more
32:53inclusive
32:54by default
32:55having
32:55an X
32:56amount
32:56of people
32:57visiting
32:57a destination
32:58and not
32:59only
33:00contributing
33:01to the
33:01economy
33:02of a
33:02location
33:03primarily
33:04but just
33:04going to
33:05an hotel
33:06where an
33:07average
33:07employee
33:08works
33:09an X
33:10amount
33:10of hours
33:11they will
33:12be able
33:13to actually
33:13spend
33:14money
33:14in local
33:15art
33:16shops
33:16in local
33:17food
33:18experiences
33:19in local
33:20heritage
33:21centres
33:22so it's
33:22about
33:23creating
33:23synergies
33:25within
33:25a destination
33:26that go
33:27beyond
33:27the standard
33:29three things
33:30that people
33:30want to
33:31do
33:31which is
33:32travel
33:32sleep
33:33eat
33:34sorry
33:34for
33:35and
33:35entertain
33:35being
33:36entertained
33:36so in
33:37the
33:37if we
33:38we can
33:39add
33:39to those
33:40other
33:41the last
33:42two
33:42aspects
33:43which are
33:43a bit
33:44looking
33:44outside
33:45the
33:45box
33:46I've
33:47been
33:47working
33:47a lot
33:47with
33:49local
33:49contemporary
33:50artists
33:51across
33:51the world
33:52you know
33:52in South
33:52America
33:53in Africa
33:53where I
33:54work quite
33:54a lot
33:55and again
33:55we have
33:56discovered
33:56the value
33:57of
33:57contemporary
33:57arts
33:58and how
33:59that becomes
34:00a very
34:01attractive
34:01things
34:02that actually
34:04push us
34:05away from
34:05having
34:05pre
34:07images
34:08of a
34:08destination
34:09so opening
34:10up
34:10opportunities
34:11so I
34:12think if
34:12we can
34:13look at
34:13diversifying
34:14the product
34:15within a
34:16destination
34:16then people
34:18will be
34:18more able
34:19to spend
34:20not necessarily
34:21more expensive
34:23you know
34:24spending in
34:26more expensive
34:27setup
34:28but rather
34:29creating
34:30maybe spending
34:30more time
34:31in that
34:31destination
34:32and therefore
34:33contributing
34:34more to
34:34that particular
34:35context
34:36and perhaps
34:38one thing
34:39we haven't
34:39touched on
34:40yet
34:40and obviously
34:41we're at
34:41VivaTech
34:42is the role
34:43of technology
34:44in all of
34:44this
34:44do you see
34:46technology
34:46helping
34:47do you see
34:48it perhaps
34:48hindering
34:49with the
34:50phenomenon
34:51of social
34:52media
34:52and what
34:53that does
34:54for all
34:54of a sudden
34:55turning
34:55sometimes
34:56destinations
34:57are absolutely
34:58not set up
34:58to receive
34:59almost any
35:00visitors
35:00into the
35:01next
35:02hot spot
35:03what role
35:04can technology
35:04play in
35:05making tourism
35:06more sustainable
35:07well
35:08I
35:08you know
35:09as I was
35:10walking to
35:10the panel
35:11today
35:11I looked
35:12at
35:13this company
35:15who is
35:15actually doing
35:16those mobility
35:19highly technological
35:21wheelchair
35:22that can actually
35:23move around
35:24so for instance
35:25go upstairs
35:25and things like
35:26that
35:27I mean
35:28why was I
35:29attracted by
35:29that
35:29because
35:30at the
35:31centre
35:31where I
35:32work
35:32at the
35:32University
35:32of
35:33Nottingham
35:33some of my
35:34colleagues
35:34are centred
35:35around
35:35accessibility
35:37and inclusion
35:37and I know
35:38for instance
35:39we were having
35:40this conversation
35:40yesterday
35:41how do we
35:41make
35:42experiences
35:43more inclusive
35:44so effectively
35:45you know
35:46the first thing
35:46that people
35:47think about
35:47making tourism
35:48technologically
35:49more advanced
35:51is AI
35:52chat GDP
35:54you know
35:55all these
35:55kind of things
35:56which again
35:56is about
35:57marketing
35:57is about
35:58consumer
35:59consciousness
35:59and promoting
36:00more sustainable
36:02destinations
36:03but I think
36:04if we can
36:04then venture
36:05into true
36:06partnerships
36:07with technological
36:08organisations
36:09that would
36:09provide us
36:10the tools
36:11to actually
36:12make our
36:12holiday more
36:13inclusive
36:13for instance
36:14that is an
36:14example
36:15that
36:17very often
36:18we don't
36:18think about
36:19another very
36:19important one
36:20which was
36:21for me
36:21was a
36:22complete
36:24groundbreaking
36:25thing
36:26was the
36:26role of
36:27technology
36:27in terms
36:28of
36:28online
36:29education
36:30for instance
36:31that we
36:31have experienced
36:32during COVID
36:33right
36:33a lot
36:34of people
36:35were forced
36:37to use
36:37you know
36:38whatever
36:38platform
36:39they were
36:39using
36:40for education
36:41purposes
36:41now we've
36:43been using
36:43that for
36:43training
36:44and of course
36:45with the
36:45introduction
36:46of AI
36:48I see
36:49technology
36:49playing a
36:50very important
36:51role
36:51in actually
36:53changing
36:54that mindset
36:55normalising
36:56sustainability
36:57so for
36:58instance
36:59you know
36:59many people
37:00may not
37:01forget
37:01or remember
37:02where this
37:02comes from
37:03right
37:04you know
37:05this comes
37:06from after
37:07September
37:07the 11th
37:08so a
37:08terrorist
37:09crisis
37:10how can
37:11we in
37:12the age
37:13of climate
37:13crisis
37:14find solution
37:15like this
37:16that automatically
37:17make us
37:19think sustainably
37:21when we
37:21travel
37:21whether we
37:23are a
37:24keen
37:25you know
37:25adventurer
37:26going on
37:27holiday
37:28which is
37:29sustainable
37:29whether we
37:30are somebody
37:30who just
37:31want to
37:31go and
37:32relax
37:32as we
37:33said
37:33earlier
37:34fly and
37:35flop on
37:35a beach
37:36somewhere
37:36in the
37:37world
37:37we need
37:39to make
37:39sustainability
37:40easier
37:41and I think
37:41technology
37:42and tech
37:43has got a
37:43huge
37:44huge impact
37:45and role
37:46to play
37:46in this
37:49sorry
37:49go ahead
37:50I need to
37:50jump on
37:51something you
37:51said
37:51because I
37:52think there
37:52is a
37:52misconception
37:53that travelling
37:54sustainably
37:54is expensive
37:55I'll get to
37:56the technology
37:56bits
37:57because I
37:57think it
37:58can be
37:58a solution
37:58but if
37:59you think
37:59about going
38:00to a
38:01restaurant
38:01in one
38:01of the
38:02most crowded
38:02place in
38:03the world
38:04Paris
38:04or Rome
38:04and if
38:06you travel
38:06with a
38:06local
38:06person
38:07a guide
38:08or friend
38:08you're most
38:09likely going
38:09to find
38:10a very
38:10nice
38:11authentic
38:11local
38:12place
38:12to eat
38:12that would
38:13be cheaper
38:13as well
38:13same with
38:14staying
38:14local
38:15same with
38:16travelling
38:16in public
38:17transport
38:17using the
38:18metro
38:18for example
38:18so first
38:19of all
38:20this is a
38:21misconception
38:21travelling
38:22sustainably
38:22can be
38:23more affordable
38:24of course
38:25I'm never
38:25going to say
38:26it can be
38:26competing
38:27with the
38:27cruiser
38:28industry
38:28which I
38:28know is
38:29the model
38:29that to me
38:30is completely
38:30wrong
38:31let's be
38:31honest
38:31but there
38:33is also
38:33the possibility
38:34to make
38:35travel
38:35democratic
38:35and accessible
38:36to the
38:37masses
38:37doing it
38:38sustainably
38:39technology
38:39can play
38:40a role
38:40because it
38:41can give
38:41access
38:41what we're
38:42finding here
38:43is we need
38:43humans
38:44to connect
38:45travellers
38:45with communities
38:46travellers
38:47with local
38:47experiences
38:48travellers
38:49with the
38:49public
38:49transport
38:50but if
38:50the
38:51technology
38:51is invested
38:52to create
38:52awareness
38:53access
38:53to all
38:54of these
38:55things
38:55we don't
38:56need as
38:56many
38:57humans
38:57and then
38:57it becomes
38:58more accessible
38:58more clear
38:59and of course
39:00the point
39:00around education
39:02to me is
39:02critical
39:03because tourism
39:03employs one
39:04in ten people
39:05in the world
39:05so if we can
39:06use technology
39:07to train
39:08all of these
39:08millions of
39:09people
39:09to best
39:11practices
39:12service
39:13in terms of
39:13service
39:14sustainability
39:14best practices
39:15then we can
39:16actually win
39:17so much
39:17in so fast
39:18in such a
39:19fast time
39:20and Alexandra
39:21perhaps just
39:22to round off
39:23coming back
39:24to Paris
39:24what use
39:25cases have
39:26you seen
39:26here for
39:27technology
39:28in the
39:28service of
39:29sustainability
39:29in tourism
39:31in particular
39:31I agree
39:33that tech
39:33can be a
39:34game changer
39:35and you can
39:35see many
39:36start-ups
39:36here offering
39:37solutions
39:38in terms
39:38of disability
39:39for instance
39:40measuring
39:41your
39:42carbon print
39:44as a
39:44tourist
39:45or as a
39:45tourism
39:46professional
39:47and I
39:48think it
39:48can help
39:49a lot
39:50with all
39:51the issues
39:52we just
39:52discussed
39:53about
39:54regulating
39:55flux
39:56also
39:57directing
39:58people
39:58to the
39:59right
39:59places
39:59with the
40:00right
40:01mode
40:01of
40:01transportation
40:02and
40:03our
40:04role
40:04as a
40:04public
40:05authority
40:06is for
40:06instance
40:07to subsidize
40:08these
40:08start-ups
40:09to help
40:10them grow
40:10so that
40:11they can
40:12grow
40:12and find
40:13their
40:13public
40:14and also
40:15we created
40:16with
40:16Choose Paris
40:17Region
40:17our app
40:18one app
40:19to promote
40:22walks
40:23around
40:23Paris
40:24you know
40:24the most
40:25sustainable
40:26transportation
40:27mode
40:27can be
40:28just walking
40:29and it's
40:30another way
40:31also
40:32beyond Paris
40:34in the Paris
40:35region
40:36to discover
40:37the Paris
40:37region
40:38with bike
40:38and walking
40:39and
40:40because you
40:41may not
40:42know
40:42that we
40:42are not
40:42only
40:43an urban
40:43region
40:44but it's
40:4575%
40:46rural
40:46agricultural
40:47and with
40:48forests
40:49the Paris
40:50region
40:50you cannot
40:51imagine it
40:52when you
40:52are here
40:53so
40:53yeah
40:54tech
40:55can help
40:56us
40:56in all
40:57of these
40:57topics
40:57it won't
40:58do it
40:58all
40:58but it
40:59can help
41:00and we
41:00are
41:00really
41:01helping
41:02these
41:03start-ups
41:03to grow
41:04thank you
41:05very much
41:05well
41:06with that
41:06I'm afraid
41:07we're almost
41:08out of time
41:08so as you
41:10all hope
41:10hopefully go
41:11off and enjoy
41:12the rest of
41:12your day
41:12and a
41:14sustainable
41:14time in
41:15Paris
41:15I'd just
41:16like to
41:17invite you
41:17to join me
41:18in thanking
41:18our panel
41:19today
41:19and wishing
41:20you a
41:21wonderful
41:21afternoon
41:22thank you
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