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Can sailing really support sustainability
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00:00Maybe introduce the next session. It was a very good transition because it's all about sailing and sustainability.
00:08So you've seen that sailing has an impact. It's considered as being a very green sport, powered by the winds,
00:17potentially renewable energy on boats.
00:19But those boats have an impact and have big challenges to solve as well.
00:24So to answer this massive paradox, we're going to ask and welcome on stage our fantastic panel.
00:34So Joseph Bizarre, the director of OC Sport.
00:40Welcome. Please have a seat.
00:44We have Alex Kézeg, the director of Sirocco. Welcome, Alex.
00:51Catherine Chabot. Should I introduce her? Famous skipper, sailor.
00:58They're going to introduce themselves a bit more in the coming minutes.
01:04And Marc Van Pettengam. Welcome on board.
01:09Naval architect and ex-creator of EPLP.
01:16Good morning, everyone. Nice to have you all.
01:20So that's a challenging question.
01:23Can sailing really support sustainability?
01:26You know, we've heard from the designers of the boat, the skippers and the managers,
01:31how the tech is posing issues and having questions as well.
01:35But maybe before going into the deep of the topic, I will let you introduce yourselves.
01:41So starting with Joseph.
01:43Hi. Thank you very much.
01:45And good to have you here.
01:47I'm Joseph Bizarre.
01:48I'm the CEO of OC Sport Pendwick, one of the international event organizer company.
01:54And we are best known as the organizer of the Rue du Rhum, for instance, for those who know.
01:59And some other race which makes our sport so different, like La Solitaire du Figaro
02:04and the former English Transat, which is now the Transat CIC.
02:09Thank you so much. Alex.
02:11I'm Alex Kayserg.
02:13I'm the CEO of Sirocco, a climate tech startup based in Marseille, a former kitesurfing world champion
02:22and a world speed sailing record holder.
02:25I'm still the fastest kitesurfer in the world.
02:29Fantastic. Well done.
02:31Catherine.
02:32Yeah. Good morning, everyone.
02:35Catherine Chabot.
02:36I am a former journalist, a former sailor, former.
02:40But last November, I raced the Rue du Rhum on a hold boat.
02:45And I'm also a member of the European Parliament where I'm trying to push all ocean issues.
02:53That's a great way.
02:55That's a great way.
02:55Looking for the perspective.
02:57And how about you, Mark?
02:59Good morning, everyone.
03:01I'm Mark van Petegem.
03:02I'm a Naval Architect co-founder of VPLP Design, which is a yacht design and naval architecture firm.
03:14And also founder of a company called Aero, which develops wing cell to help to decarbonize the shipping industry.
03:27So on that topic, and going to the topic of today, usually the first question we often be asked is,
03:38because, you know, your boats are full of carbon, it's a very energy-intensive material.
03:45So do you really think that you can pass the sustainability message with that weight on your shoulder?
03:51So maybe starting with you, Mark.
03:53Well, it's a difficult topic because I think competition is also key to develop things
04:04and can be transferred into other fields.
04:09Like I mentioned this wing cell that we're developing, which the idea comes from the America's Cup,
04:20VPLP Design, a trimaran who owned the America's Cup in 2010 with a giant wing cell of 68 meters span.
04:31And from that idea, we decided to adapt this wing cell to the constraint of the shipping industry.
04:40And what we are doing now is to produce four wings that will be set on a cargo ship called
04:49Canopy,
04:50which will deliver the parts of IN-6 rockets from the north of Europe to Guyana, French Guyana.
05:01So there are lots of things that can be done, that's for sure.
05:09But also don't forget that competition gives birth to very important things that can be used.
05:20So competition and innovation, and that's where you can push.
05:24But it touches as well something close to your heart, Catherine, the reason to be of offshore racing.
05:31So maybe you want to touch on that a little bit.
05:34Oh yeah, I can begin by this topic.
05:36But yeah, I think as Mark said, it's funny because the decarbonization of sailing should come from an old carbon
05:53rigid wing invented by VPLP on the America's Cup.
05:59And I think today, our sport, it's an incredible sport because we are all passionate by we are sailing on
06:11the ocean.
06:12We have a relationship, I think, with the ocean.
06:15People are dreaming on our sailing races, etc.
06:20And I think we can bring, as Mark said, solutions in that time of the transition.
06:30And so there are a lot of problems that we have to resolve.
06:37But also, we also are the part of the solution.
06:41So I think we have to rethink la raison d'être of our sports, trying to understand what should be
06:52the role of the sailing races, the architects, the races, etc.
07:00In that time.
07:02And I think we have a lot to bring.
07:04And I think we do not have to be too dogmatic.
07:10Because when we speak about carbon, it was your first question.
07:14Carbon is an old petrol origin material.
07:20But see, you know, the solar impulse flew around the Earth thanks to the carbon.
07:38So we have probably to rethink materials, but we have to have an integrated approach on the sustainability.
07:47Because, and I think Joseph will probably speak about that.
07:53We have to use cycle analysis, life cycle analysis, not to be too dogmatic, and to see where we have
08:06to work.
08:07But we have also to work on the preservation of biodiversity, the way we build our boats.
08:17Because we use a lot of plastic when we build a sailing boat, even a cruising boat.
08:23So there's a lot of things too.
08:25But I think we need to have an integrated approach.
08:28And I think we have to work together.
08:30But I will speak about that after.
08:32Yeah, absolutely.
08:33Working together, that's key.
08:35Talking about togetherness, you know, an event organizer like you, Joseph, you know,
08:40his maybe ultimate role is to be a catalyst to gather multi-stakeholder,
08:45from the general public to the ministers and the presidents and the fans of the sport.
08:52How do you manage, you know, the sustainability topic with massive events like that?
08:57To be honest, I have a mixed feeling about that.
08:59And as long as I work as an event organizer, I have two different feelings that I have to deal
09:09with.
09:10On one hand, I fully acknowledge the fact that sailing is definitely good for people and good for the world.
09:17Because it tells extraordinary stories that we need.
09:21And if, at the end of the day, we decided not to sail anymore, it would be something that we
09:27would lack in our society, especially.
09:30And I'm truly convinced that we are genuinely committed into the protection of the ocean.
09:37It's part of us.
09:37And it's not something that we have invented.
09:40At the moment, we are reaping the reward of that.
09:43For the past decades, we have been at the forefront in terms of CSR.
09:49And at the moment, people are acknowledging that we are the forefront.
09:53So this is part of us.
09:54And this is what we need to do.
09:56I also strongly believe that our impact is relatively low by comparison with other event organizers.
10:04Even if it's not zero, but it's relatively low.
10:07On the other hand, I have acknowledged and I've noticed that we have a relatively low level of margin to
10:16act and to change the way we are.
10:19Because us, as organizers, we are part of the society.
10:22We are part of a system.
10:24And if you want some boats to be on the start line of a race, you need some sponsors that
10:29have some money and that are willing to invest.
10:32You need some engineers that are willing to make the best boats in the world.
10:35And you need some sailor that needs to have some team that needs to travel and so on and so
10:40forth.
10:41So if you want this race to exist, you have major constraints to deal with.
10:46Plus, you need to be fair finance.
10:48And today, the people who are financing us are some politics and are some existing sponsors and so on.
10:55So we are at the end of the existing system.
10:57And we need to deal with that.
10:58And at the end, as a conclusion of what we believe is the best way to act and what I
11:04learned in the past years, is that the best approach is the pragmatic one.
11:08It's just to invest and to be good at what you are already good to enhance your impact, even in
11:17the term of reducing carbon.
11:20But I would say, as well, you have another way to influence positively is the rules.
11:27And being, you know, able to create the rules for an event, for the sailors, for the public, is also
11:34a massive way to accelerate change.
11:37But would the rule be against innovation?
11:40Maybe Alex, you can let us know.
11:42Do you think it's going against the potential innovative power that Mark was talking about?
11:48We have a chance in the speed record chasing history, is that we have not a lot of rules.
11:57So that makes a difference between the sailing competition.
12:01So the potential innovation is very wide.
12:07And it was in the roots of Sirocco.
12:10So it was, okay, we launched a new sailing speed record, but at the same time, we know that we
12:18have to create, to innovate, to find solutions to our problem, to reach a certain level of performance.
12:26But at the same time, all this innovation, like Mark said, it has to have a purpose, to profit to
12:35the planet, if you can.
12:36And the wing Mark developed for the America's Cup is the perfect example.
12:42We took the software side of the story with Sirocco.
12:47We used one of the software we created to help us size the speed record craft.
12:58We used it as a digital twin platform for the maritime industry to help them optimize their energy efficiency.
13:06And to reduce their fuel consumption.
13:09And it's direct savings in terms of emissions.
13:18So you have a direct feedback of what you invent.
13:23And that gives a lot of sense in our speed record chase or research.
13:33And if you think about the concrete examples of, you know, the topic and where we are in the topic,
13:40so we can see from the boat building perspective or from an event organizer, I think people really want to
13:46do the best thing.
13:48But what do you think is missing?
13:51And I'm going a bit in the direction of Catherine here about, you know, the idea of collaboration.
13:58Yeah, where we are, where we are, and is there any concrete example or initiative that I've heard about recently?
14:05Yeah, I think we, for the, those who are involved on those topics since a long time, as I do.
14:17So about 20 years ago, I think we are at a moment today where everybody is working on trying to,
14:26everybody, probably not, not everybody.
14:30Not enough.
14:31I'm too, too optimistic.
14:34I think designers are working, but they, they answer the demand of the skippers.
14:46So they do not decide the regulation of the, the, the classes of the, the, the different classes of the,
14:57the boat.
14:59They are trying to, to, to, to put some elements of sustainability, not very much on plastic on board, but
15:09not on the design, really, etc.
15:12The organisers are working since a long time and our sponsors are also involved in sustainability because they are, for
15:24a lot of them, they have a, the regulation that they have to implement.
15:31Some of them implement the, the sustainable development goals as well, etc.
15:38So today, I think we won't go further if we don't put everybody around the table because we really need
15:49to, to work together because if, I know that if Joseph wants to, to, to, to, to put something in
16:00the rules of the race,
16:03he won't be able to decide alone.
16:05He will, he will, he will have to decide with all the classes that are engaged on the, on the,
16:11on the, on the, for example.
16:13And, but everybody said, no, no, no, it's not your job.
16:16It's horse.
16:17So I think we all together need to go, how can we imagine the, the future of our race?
16:27Because sailing is presented still today as a very nature, environmentally friendly sport.
16:36Yeah, exactly.
16:36And very green.
16:37But it's, it won't, it won't be, I think, the end.
16:42If we don't move before the next Vendée Globe, for example, we will have the Transat Jacques Vab at the
16:50end of the year.
16:52Transat Jacques Vab is also involved on the sustainability.
16:56But if we don't move, if we don't accelerate the transition in our sports, we won't be attractive for the
17:06sponsors because we won't have the values that we, we are supposed to carry.
17:13So we, we launched this idea, uh, course for large, 2030, offshore selling 2030.
17:21And the idea is to, to ask, to hold the, the stakeholders.
17:28What should be the, the, the, the, the way that we have to, to take together?
17:34For example, we have a lot of problems with, uh, citizens that, uh, boats are, uh, hurting, collision for them
17:45with the marine mammals.
17:46Because we probably have, uh, in the Rue du Rhum or in the Vendée Globe, in the Transat Jacques Vab,
17:52to avoid areas where citizens, we know, scientific, uh, scientists are able to, to, to, to tell us.
18:03And you did it in the, in the, in the ocean race, uh, when you, uh, uh, the sustainable, uh,
18:11uh, in charge of sustainability of that race.
18:14You did it so you can say that it's, we can do it.
18:18Exactly.
18:19I mean, that's why.
18:19We just have to decide.
18:21We have to decide.
18:22And probably it's, uh, notion of, uh, audacity and courage and, um, being able to think out of the box
18:30and, uh, you know, implement the shift at the right level.
18:33So, uh, is that possible?
18:35And I really think it's, uh, more possible than it is, you know, Mark, at, uh, at your level where
18:41you have, uh, existing materials, you know, you have constraints, you know, that is dragging down the, the, um, overall
18:49net positive impact.
18:50So, do you think you can say, okay, let's use all the innovation in that, uh, and build the best
18:57sustainable boat, uh, and, uh, force the rule makers to say, to tell them it's possible?
19:03Do you have a role to play in that?
19:04Or?
19:06Well, I don't think we have the power to do it.
19:09I think it should come as, uh, uh, Catherine said, it should come from the community.
19:16And, uh, but of course, I think we can, you know, place the cursor where, where we want.
19:26We can, we can make progress on, we can use better resin, we can use, uh, natural fibers, which maybe
19:38it's better.
19:42But, uh, where, where, where, where do we want to go?
19:45I think it's a, it's a question of, uh, of a common decision.
19:50Uh, it's also, what do we do with, uh, the used boats?
19:56I think the second life is a, is a very important topic.
20:00Yeah.
20:01There are many things that can be done.
20:03We can do everything.
20:06I think it's possible, but, uh, do we want to slow down?
20:10Do we want to take, uh, why, why couldn't we take, uh, CO2 emission in the rule?
20:20So maybe we will have a different class.
20:24I don't know.
20:25It's a very open discussion.
20:27I think it's a very interesting, very interesting one.
20:29Mark doesn't say it, but he is probably the first, uh, designer who is, is really involved
20:37on those topics.
20:38But I think, Mark, it's very hard to, to share, to push the skippers because if they do, if
20:48they, they try to find solution for their boat, there's a problem of competition.
20:54Yeah.
20:54So it has to be, yeah, I think it's hard to, to push the skippers to move, no?
21:02Yeah.
21:03I think it's very, very interesting to, to see.
21:06There is, there are some of the, of this, uh, community which wants to really want to, uh,
21:13to go further, I think.
21:15Yeah.
21:16And it's also, uh, a key question, uh, is it, uh, sustainability first or is it sport
21:22first?
21:23So I really think, uh, we, we might lose the DNA of the attraction and that attractivity
21:28of a sailing race, uh, or a sailing team if we are only thinking about sustainability.
21:34So my, my, my, maybe preferred answer would be sport first to get the attention and the
21:40voice, uh, and sustainability everywhere.
21:42What do you think about that?
21:44Maybe, uh, Alex in the, um, Alex and, uh, and then Joseph.
21:49No, I, I'm not sure we, we should separate the two or, uh, put one first and the other
21:55after.
21:57Uh, you can do both.
21:59Uh, it can be 50-50 or, uh, and the, the sports and the technology, uh, could drive sustainable
22:07innovation.
22:08So why should we separate them?
22:11Uh, no, you can do both and, uh, and still pushing the limits within the technology or
22:18creating new technology that could be more sustainable.
22:21I think, like you said, Mark, uh, in the, in the fiber and the resin, you have new stuff
22:27coming in because it needs to be sustainable, but it needs to prove its performances as well.
22:34So the sports will be here to showcase the performance.
22:38Combining performance and sustainability is possible.
22:41What do you think, uh, Joseph?
22:42We are organizing some, uh, competition.
22:44So I fully agree that competition is just the beginning of what we are doing.
22:48If you lose competition, it's like looking at the cooking lesson versus, uh, top chef.
22:54Everyone prefers to look top chef.
22:55So if we lose competition, we lose interest, we lose impact, and we lose what we, uh, what
23:01made our sports.
23:02We definitely are very committed into that.
23:05But in the same time, my opinion is that we are in a moment where we, uh, we need to
23:10have
23:10a vision.
23:11Uh, we need to share a vision and to share our trajectory of where we are going.
23:15And us as organizers of events, we are working on a short, middle, long-term basis because
23:22our event, for instance, La Rue du Rhum is every four years.
23:25So at the moment, we are already working on the next Rue du Rhum, which is in 2026 and
23:30on the next one, which is 2030.
23:32So we need as an organizer to set some new rules today that will be the rules of the skippers
23:38of tomorrow at the moment where we don't have already set the rules, where we are done.
23:44We don't all have the same expectations and so on.
23:47So this is where organizers have their role to play, because I believe that we are some
23:52rule setters in a moment where everyone doesn't share the same vision, or at least we have
23:57the same vision, but we don't have the same trajectory.
23:59And this is where we are.
24:01And if our trajectory should be summarized, it's all about competition because it's impact,
24:07all about impact because this is what we know how to do.
24:09And we see that every sailor, every team, every skipper is already committed into that
24:15and is legitimate to talk about that and act where we can on the short term to reduce
24:20everything that we can, taking into account that our sport is not that bad in terms of
24:25emission.
24:26We should not just look at that.
24:28We should look at what we are already setting and already bringing into our society.
24:33And could we see La Rue du Rhum winner, the one who has the less carbon impact, as Marc
24:39suggested?
24:41No, but we could see in La Rue du Rhum because it is a moment where we are talking about
24:45offshore
24:45sailing and where I would say the whole world, at least France and Europe, is looking at what
24:51we are doing.
24:52In one time, every four years, we can tell what we are doing.
24:56And we could see, for instance, some of the new sailing cargo coming into Saint-Malo to
25:02showcase what we are capable of doing and the transfer that we can do between the sailing
25:07boats and the existing passerelle and framework that exists thanks to the architects.
25:14So I think that's really, you know, what does success look like?
25:17You know, is it the fastest around the world?
25:20Is it the fastest around the world with the best, you know, sustainable impact and platform?
25:26And often, I think we're forgetting the voice that we have as well, you know, on the ocean,
25:34our playground, which is already very much threatened, as we know.
25:38So, and it's also at the heart of the business model.
25:41So maybe we're reaching the end of this topic.
25:44But the last question for me, before the conclusion, would be who's paying?
25:48Is this financially sustainable to integrate sustainability across all from the event perspective,
25:54the innovation perspective, maybe the roles and the boat design?
25:59Do you see the financial interest from sponsors coming up on that topic?
26:05I can answer.
26:07Yeah.
26:08It's a risk not to catch up with the CSR today.
26:13It's an opportunity because every single brand in 10 to 50 years will be committed into that
26:20and it will be like the first, it will be mandatory.
26:24And on the other hand, it's not a cost, it's an investment.
26:27Like our sports is so beautiful.
26:29It existed because it was nice selling underwater and we see that today it has to change also.
26:34Yeah.
26:35For the next 50 years, every single euro that we invest together today
26:41is making it sustainable in the future.
26:43So it's good to spend money when it's an investment.
26:47And Mark, do you see that as well?
26:48That is attention from your clients or future clients?
26:53I think what is very important is to make the link between innovation and the impact on the industry.
27:01We were talking about fibers, resin.
27:04I was talking about the wing sail.
27:07I mean, if we can highlight that and make that the competition,
27:12because, I mean, sailing competition is about going as fast as possible,
27:17taking the most of the wind energy to transform it into the best performance.
27:24So if we can make the link between what is the technology involved
27:30and what can be the impact on the industry,
27:33it could have a very good, I think, incentive on the financial side of sponsors.
27:40Thank you.
27:42Unless you have something to say, we're reaching the end about the financial mechanism.
27:46Maybe we're going to go around a conclusion for this session.
27:50So let's start with you, Catherine.
27:52What do you take out of this session and are you hopeful for the future?
27:57Yeah, because I am an optimistic woman.
28:00I would like to say that thanks to the innovations Mark was speaking about,
28:08these ridging sails that we can put on the cargo ship,
28:14that I'm trying to push in the European legislation, regulation.
28:20We have, we succeed to put, say, wind propulsion because I know that it exists thanks to VPLP.
28:33And I think it's funny to say that you have a lot of former sailors who are involved on transition.
28:41I think sailing can't live outside of, yeah, we are in VivaTech.
28:49We have a lot of innovations for the transition here.
28:54And I think we just have to change of paradigm and to, for your question,
29:04speed or competition or sustainability.
29:07No, you can put sustainability in the regulations, in the rules.
29:13We have already rules on our boats.
29:17So how you can, and I think under the contraintes, sous la contrainte naît l'innovation,
29:25comment tu dis ça en anglais?
29:26Under the constraints, innovation can be born.
29:30You push innovation.
29:30So I think as citizens, we are all, we need to be all involved on the transition.
29:39And we can, all of this, bring something, a stone to the transition.
29:46So I'm optimistic, but I think we, there's an urgency, you know?
29:53We have to reduce our emissions and the maritime transport have to reduce its emissions about 90% before 2050.
30:09How sailing, why sailing won't reduce its emissions as well?
30:15So that's a good transition for your conclusion, Alex.
30:19Short.
30:20Yeah, I don't know if I need to push more about what Catherine said,
30:26because it's kind of evident.
30:30Obvious for you?
30:32But yeah, like Joseph said, we make people dream.
30:40We need to continue to make them dream.
30:43We are dreamers, but at the same time, sponsorship is an opportunity today in sailing,
30:52because we are in the forefront of innovation for, sustainable innovation for the planet.
30:58So let's continue to push the story.
31:01Great, let's carry on dreaming. Joseph?
31:04Yeah, and I would like to finish with a very concrete example of what is possible.
31:10One year ago, we decided to launch the very first transatlantic race with two crews and a mixed crew mandatory
31:19on board.
31:21In sailing, it's quite well known that the skippers, female skippers, are not that much.
31:29On the Route du Rhum, we had seven female skippers, among which Catherine, out of 138, which was very low.
31:38And we decided to launch mandatory, the very first transatlantic, with one male, one female skipper on each boat.
31:44And that was very risky, very risky from a sailing point of view, not sailing, but a sporting point of
31:51view, very risky from the financial point of view, because of sponsors and so on.
31:55And everyone was not happy with that. They asked us for a long-term transition, and so on and so
32:02forth.
32:02We decided to go full speed, and we had 11 boats on the start line, which was very much more
32:09than on the Route du Rhum.
32:10So, at the end, what my conclusion would be, say, don't feel bad about moving fast on some topic, because
32:17at the end, you will definitely reap the rewards of it, and people will get engaged on that.
32:22Next, Transat Paprek, in two years, we'll have 20 years, and it wouldn't exist if we had not gone very
32:29fast and quick.
32:29So, thank you very much. I mean, that was a fascinating journey, and it's not finished.
32:35So, if you want to carry on the discussion, we have at the Connection Hub a presentation of the Sustainable
32:42Marine Alliance Initiative.
32:44And the question is how to collaborate, to accelerate change, to transform our industry.
32:49So, everyone, welcome to carry on the discussion.
32:52I would like to thank you, all the presence here. Thank you so much for your contribution.
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