- il y a 2 jours
Can We Reconcile Hyper Growth and Sustainability?
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00:03Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome back to Vivitech, Europe's largest startup and tech event.
00:10I'm Asha Sunpert, I'm a journalist and entrepreneur, and I'm your host this afternoon.
00:16So, very pleased to see many people in the audience here, right?
00:20So, thank you to all of you for being here with us.
00:23It feels actually really great to reconnect and revive, you know, the Vivitech community for another exciting edition.
00:32I hope you're excited because we are excited here.
00:35This year, again, we will bring together entrepreneurs, startups, corporates, VCs, academics, and the media to ignite growth, business transformation,
00:46and positive change.
00:48We are bringing to you a very special hybrid edition of Vivitech with an amazing program over the four days
00:56to come with session offering both an on-site experience here at Port de Versailles in Paris with lots of
01:04people around me here,
01:05and also an online experience for all of you who couldn't make it and who are remotely joining us from
01:12all corners of the world.
01:14So, over 350 speakers, 300 innovations, and thousands of startups will be joining us to share the best of the
01:23world of tech for business and society.
01:27So, let's dive in straight into our session on Scaling Up.
01:32So, Scaling Up is a free-hour session that will be divided into four separate discussions where we are going
01:40to address some of the major challenges and opportunities facing startups and companies when actually they scale up.
01:48Thanks to the participation of renowned experts, we will actually dive into many topics you will see, including hyper-growth,
01:58sustainability, venture capital, maturity, and obviously European tech.
02:03If you're with us in the audience, right, I hope you are going to interact with us, so bear with
02:09us for the next three hours, and you will get the chance, of course, to ask your questions to our
02:14speakers who will be joining us in a couple of minutes.
02:17And to submit your questions, it's quite easy, actually.
02:21You can use the Vivitech digital platform where you can type your questions from whether you're in the audience here
02:28or you are joining remotely.
02:29I think if you're remotely connecting, you can do that in the chat.
02:33Now, if you're ready, I hope you're ready because we are ready and excited.
02:37Let's kick off our first topic today.
02:40Can we reconcile hyper-growth and sustainability?
03:00Right, so we have a panel right after this, but before we dive in, I'm joined by Thoma, Thoma Platenga,
03:08right?
03:09So, I pronounced correctly?
03:10Yes.
03:11Fantastic.
03:12So, Thomas, if you don't know, Thomas is the CEO of Vinted.
03:16Vinted, I'm sure everybody knows, you guys are so famous.
03:21Do I even need to introduce it?
03:23I think so.
03:24We sell second-hand clothing online.
03:25Right, so it's an online platform, buying, selling and exchanging new or second-hand items.
03:32So, it's great to have you here at Vivitech, Thoma.
03:34Is this your first time you've been here before?
03:36No, I think two, three years ago I was here, right before COVID.
03:40Okay.
03:40So, again, so Vinted is really an iconic brand platform whose huge success, ladies and gentlemen,
03:47I think currently valued at $4.5 billion is a sign that actually our societies are shifting
03:55towards more responsible ways of consuming, which is a good thing.
04:00So, Thomas, probably to what extent do you think being a purpose-driven company impacts
04:07your ability today to raise capital and especially hire new talents?
04:13Yeah, I think it is absolutely an advantage.
04:16So, I think many people start to realize that we need to get out of the situation where
04:22we are in right now.
04:24At this point in time, we have a lot of innovation ahead of us before we actually enable ourselves
04:29to fully sustainably produce and run our societies.
04:34This has become obvious.
04:35Science says so.
04:37And on the other hand, what is very clear, we as societies want to have the comfort that
04:42we have around us at this point in time.
04:44And thus, innovation is needed to close that gap.
04:48And thus, there are many investors who are very interested to do so.
04:51Because if a society needs to make a move, then huge industries will shift.
04:57And thus, those huge shifts in industries are huge opportunities to invest in.
05:02So, I think from an investor perspective, many of the funds who raise capital to invest in
05:07and companies that are innovating are going into this direction because they see that these
05:12are huge industries that are evolving at this point in time and thus huge opportunities.
05:18So, that's, I think, on the investment side.
05:21Then, on the people side, I think it does two things.
05:25So, at first, I think people always love to work on stuff that's useful.
05:32And thus, if you do something that creates something that works more sustainably or fixes
05:37a certain issue that feels useful, thus, to attract people to come and work for you becomes
05:43a little bit more easier.
05:44Because practically, your pitch is just a little bit more fun.
05:48And then, on the other hand, what happens, so it's practically the second phase.
05:51When people are in, when you have a very clear purpose, a very clear problem you want to
05:56solve and you're all working towards, then actually you have a lot of clarity in your
06:00organization what you're actually trying to do, which makes a lot of discussions usually
06:04a lot easier.
06:06And environments where discussions are not too difficult around, you know, what you want
06:11to do, but it's very clearly where you're going with the company, are environments where
06:15the discussions can be and the friction can be around how to solve the problem and where
06:19the best ideas are then discussed.
06:21So I think it helps on all these elements and thus, it's helpful, for sure.
06:28Fantastic.
06:29So growing has never been simple.
06:31I mean, it can complexify things.
06:34But at the same time, when we look at, you know, hypergrowth itself, can it threaten the
06:39ability for a scale-up actually to remain close to what you're saying, that being a purpose-driven
06:44company environmentally and having those socially responsible values and practices becoming
06:51bigger can threaten that?
06:54What do you think?
06:55Yeah.
06:55So I think it really depends on what type of company you are, right?
06:59So if you're an oil company, then, you know, scaling is very difficult to then be sustainable.
07:05But if you have a clear purpose that by default is sustainable, then there's no problem in that.
07:11But when you're becoming bigger, and even if, let's say, the core element that you're doing
07:16is something that's good for the world, like on many other elements, the bigger you become,
07:21the more careful you need to be on exactly understanding how parts of your organization
07:25are impacting society, what those things are doing, and ensuring that at scale, you
07:31ensure you don't bring any additional damage that is not needed to society in any form that
07:36it is, whether it is on sustainability, on ethics, or anything.
07:40So I think becoming bigger, you create a bigger team that has a bigger impact that is absolutely
07:48needed to change industries and to change society.
07:52But on the other hand, when you have such a big team, there are many different things
07:55that you can run into that, you know, can be damaging to a certain extent.
07:59And then you have to be very honest with yourself about, okay, so the majority of the things
08:04that we're doing is good, but let's be very honest about ourselves.
08:07And we know that, for example, shipping by itself is not sustainable.
08:11So, okay, it's cool that somebody consumes a second-hand item, but also that item needs
08:17to be shipped.
08:17So let's try to figure out how we do that most sustainable.
08:20So, okay, Locker Pudo shipping is way more sustainable, so we can bring it down.
08:24If it goes, zoom deeper into that, how it can make that more sustainable, and that you
08:29ensure that the companies you work with and the things that you do yourself, you stay
08:34real with yourself.
08:35Because when you are smaller, all those small side effects, they're not that big.
08:41But as you grow, you have to be also on all those small parts, you have to be very accurate
08:47and real with yourself to ensure that also on those parts, you see the opportunities to
08:51innovate there and improve that as well.
08:53So, I think in every stage of a company, there will be new things that are challenging
08:58you, and there will be surprising things that will be challenging you, but you always have
09:04to be real with yourself about it, learn from it, reflect maybe the critics that you get
09:08on certain things or the things that you realize, and then just innovate your way out of it.
09:12Fantastic.
09:13Was it really obvious for you to, you know, right from the start to become a purpose-driven
09:18company?
09:19Yeah, so, no.
09:22And I think many CEOs sit in conferences and they have these visionary talks about, and
09:32we wanted to change the world and whatever.
09:34And I think, obviously, you have something like, okay, it would be really cool if we make
09:39this work because second-hand clothing is kind of good.
09:41But in the beginning, to be very honest, when I came and I changed the trajectory of Vinted,
09:46turned it around to what it is, I was mostly just really hoping we could save the jobs of
09:53all the people, make sure that we could run, you know, a proper business that could have
09:59some jobs, have some people use the platform, and that one day we would be, come break even
10:04and take care of ourselves.
10:05When that fear kind of went away and we saw, like, wow, this is growing really fast, then
10:11actually, you know, maybe earlier made vision statements and stuff like that, it actually
10:16started to sink into me, like, wow, actually, you know, making second-hand first choice
10:21worldwide, it actually might be possible.
10:23And actually, you know, it started to really trickle in, like, okay, if this really becomes
10:27big, we can really have a big impact.
10:29So let's really start to, yeah, really organize towards that.
10:33But in the beginning, for sure, you're just trying to get out of the woods, let's say.
10:37Of course, of course.
10:38When looking at Vinted today, you know, so successful, what is the one thing, Thomas,
10:44that you wish you knew earlier, before you started?
10:49Yeah, it's a very, very difficult question.
10:53But I think one of the things I didn't, and this also comes back to, let's say, sustainability.
11:00I think over the last decade, and especially in the last, let's say, six to seven years,
11:07it became very apparent that we need to change our ways.
11:13And I think the story of, let's say, climate change, that things need to go different,
11:17was something that was, for the last decade, already known.
11:20But it took me, like, years to actually realize, like, okay, this is not only a problem that
11:26is, like, an uncomfortable problem, where we have to face it, and, I don't know, do less.
11:33Yeah.
11:34It is actually a massive business opportunity.
11:37Absolutely.
11:37And in every field where you see now that there is a big industry, but that industry
11:44has a big environmental impact, then that means if you can innovate in any way to reduce
11:51that massively, that impact, or to take it completely out, you can change and take over
11:57a complete industry.
11:59And I think that is something that, you know, I only started to realize five, six years ago
12:05at the beginning at Vinted, that this is a dynamic that I think in many industries we
12:10start seeing now, and it will start happening over the next years, because governments are
12:14going to put regulation in place to ensure that society is going to prosper over the next
12:1930 years.
12:20And to do so, we need to be more sustainable altogether.
12:24And thus, industries need to change.
12:25And at any point that major industries need to change, for anybody who's building a business,
12:30that is a major opportunity.
12:32Absolutely.
12:32And what's good for the planet is good business at the end of the day.
12:37It's great opportunities out there.
12:39This is what you're saying.
12:40Yeah, exactly.
12:40So as soon as the legislation comes in, you'll be the winner.
12:43And before that, people will prefer you.
12:46So it's going to be, yeah, I think it's actually very exciting.
12:50Absolutely.
12:51Thomas, bear with me.
12:52Thank you for these insights.
12:54Stay with me as it is now time, you know, to welcome a few more guests to continue this
12:59conversation.
12:59So we're going to get a VC and an accelerator perspective to this very important conversation.
13:06I'm very pleased to invite on stage here Alice Albizati, the co-founder of Revaya, and
13:12Rafael Leyendecker, Managing Director of Techstars.
13:16Please join us.
13:31Thank you for joining.
13:33Thank you.
13:33Hello.
13:34Grab a seat.
13:35Nice to meet you.
13:36Okay.
13:37So have you met before?
13:40Just checking the lobby.
13:41Just handshake.
13:42Nice to meet you.
13:43Bit fake.
13:44Sorry.
13:44All right.
13:45All right.
13:46This is really exciting.
13:47So I will start with Alice.
13:50So Alice, I know the investment fund that you co-founded, Revaya, is focused on tech ventures
13:56growth stage.
13:57So probably, can you tell us how are you integrating ESG factors in your investment decisions?
14:05Yes.
14:05Thank you.
14:08So at Revaya, we focus on tech scale-up in Europe.
14:12So companies that have proven product market fit and that are scaling in hyper-growth.
14:18And so as part of our mission, we want to finance companies that are building sustainable
14:24leadership position.
14:25And hence, ESG and sustainability are a core element of what we do as a growth tech investor.
14:34And so throughout our investment decision, we use ESG as a way to select companies, as
14:43a way to analyze companies, and as a way to monitor and to help our companies scale.
14:49And so to give you a concrete example, when we invest into a company, we look at different
14:58investment opportunities, and we want to prioritize models that are virtuous, that have a purpose.
15:04So vintage, circular economy is a good example.
15:07That resonates.
15:08Yes.
15:09Companies, we think that makes sense.
15:11And on the opposite, there are some sectors that we put on the watch list or that we exclude
15:16because we feel that their characteristics do not meet with our ESG requirements.
15:22And do you tell them?
15:24You explain to them?
15:25Yes, we explain that that's not what we do.
15:27It doesn't mean that we will never invest in them.
15:29But for the moment, with our ESG criteria, it does not fit.
15:34But we're generally tech investors.
15:36So we do invest in software.
15:37So we invest in plenty of sectors.
15:39Then when we do the due diligence, we look at everything, financial and extra financial.
15:45And the ESG due diligence is something that is put at the same level as the legal due diligence,
15:51as the financial due diligence.
15:52So it's something that is very important for us.
15:54Not secondary, you mean?
15:55Yes, because it helps understand risk for the companies, but also opportunities.
16:00And then the most important for us is the trajectory, because we are not investing in
16:05companies that are perfect from day one, but we want to invest in companies that are on
16:09the path to building more sustainability.
16:13And so we take legally binding commitments in the shareholder agreement to help reduce
16:18cardboard footprint, to help promote diversity and inclusion.
16:23We work on workshops with our companies.
16:26So we share the results of our due diligence and try to sit down with them to see where can
16:33we go?
16:33So what can we do, show them example, share benchmark?
16:36So these are examples of how we interact with them, with the idea of promoting more sustainable
16:47companies that are in line with our current social and environmental challenges.
16:52Fantastic.
16:52This is something that you would have loved to have right from the beginning, right?
16:56Did you have those opportunities?
16:58That would be lovely.
17:00All right.
17:01So I'll turn to you, Rafael.
17:02So, Rafael, you're the managing director of the Paris branch of Techstars, one of the world's
17:07leading seed accelerators.
17:09So I think you've made 12 investments to date, all of them into startups with an impact ethos.
17:17And you've been working on launching an ESG framework that could be applied to all Techstars
17:23accelerators.
17:24So probably tell our audience and all those who are behind their screens, there are many of
17:28things that are behind them.
17:28Why is it important for a tech accelerator like Techstars to start integrating those ESG
17:35factors?
17:38It should work.
17:39It should work.
17:40Sorry.
17:42Well, Techstars exists since 15 years.
17:44We have more than 3,000 companies in our portfolio.
17:48We have no specific focus on sustainability.
17:51But actually, well, Techstars is a big corp.
17:53We have signed all the UN SDGs.
17:57And, well, I think it's in our mission to create positive externalities for our stakeholders.
18:03May they be our LPs or the society and the planet.
18:08This being said, it's really easy for us because we are super early stage.
18:13We work with entrepreneurs from the early days.
18:17So we want to educate them.
18:18This is our mission as an operating investor.
18:21And so we want to set them up for success.
18:25Me, personally, at Techstars in Paris, I only invest in companies that I call building a
18:31better world thanks to technology, meaning that they have a strong environmental focus.
18:37So, well, founders might think they actually do good because this isn't their mission.
18:43But actually, when growing up, this might become really difficult because they have to
18:48take other decisions.
18:50Growth might actually lead them to harm.
18:54How do you reconcile the growth and obviously stick to your close convictions and be purpose
19:00driven?
19:00This is what you're saying.
19:01This is where, actually, we want to implement this EG framework.
19:05We are actually discussing with a lot of VCs to also understand what they're building.
19:10Some are actually implementing an impact business plan.
19:14Some are providing, just like Revaya, tools so they can actually help their founders to
19:20grow with the right mindset.
19:22This is exactly what we do.
19:24We actually provide our founders really early stage with tools that can help them grow.
19:29So we try to have it still light at the beginning because maybe it's not their focus.
19:34But when they will grow, they will know what kind of decisions they should make at the right
19:40moment.
19:42So this is for Techstars in Paris.
19:43We try to pilot this EG framework so it can be replicable for all Techstars accelerators.
19:50And we are 52 in the world.
19:52So that's a lot of companies and they are not all focused on sustainability like mine.
19:59I'm very excited because when I started, I became a journalist and started covering these
20:04topics.
20:05I actually, at the beginning, never met women VCs, you know, at the beginning.
20:10And today that we see that there are so many of them in the business and also, you know,
20:16for purpose-driven business, this is amazing.
20:18Right.
20:19So I would like to cover a few topics.
20:21I know time is running.
20:22So first, I would like to talk about, you know, the often heard dichotomy between profitability
20:28and sustainability.
20:29Of course, how do you reconcile?
20:32Do we need to sacrifice profitability to the benefits of sustainability or vice versa?
20:38I'm sure you don't agree.
20:39I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
20:41All three of you probably will start with Alice.
20:44Yes, that's a good question.
20:46And no later than last week, I was speaking with an investor saying that we wanted to do
20:51sustainable tech growth investment.
20:54and he was telling me as a kind of vice, don't mention that you're doing sustainability
20:58because, you know, here, sustainability and performance, they do not work together.
21:04So just say that you're a growth tech investor and sustainability means no performance.
21:09So, and...
21:09We still have that kind of discourse today.
21:14Exactly.
21:14And that was coming from someone working in the foundation doing philanthropic work.
21:19So that was...
21:21We have work to do.
21:22Yeah, there is still a lot of work to do.
21:24And so, indeed, our conviction is that we can completely combine sustainability and performance.
21:34We think that there is sustainability for us is a way to grow and to scale a business in
21:44a healthy way and to scale businesses that can adapt with the environment.
21:48And we see that our companies also, they implement this action because they see that there are direct results in
21:57their top line, in their bottom line.
21:59For example, when one key issue that we have today is talent management, hiring the right talent, retaining the talent.
22:07That's a big challenge today.
22:08There was a recent study from the ADEME that shows that with equivalent job opportunities, 78% of the job
22:19seekers would prefer the company that had a sustainability roadmap instead of the company that do not have the sustainability
22:29action.
22:29Because today you're not choosing a job for the mission.
22:35And you want it to be part of that mission.
22:37To be part of this mission.
22:38So, it's a way to attract the talent and to keep them.
22:42It's also a way to get better financing.
22:47Because when you're looking at the banks today, they are lending money to sustainable companies with better terms to companies
22:55that are sustainable than those...
22:57And the banks themselves, they are transforming with ESG, integrating that in the business.
23:03Exactly.
23:04Maybe, Tom, I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
23:07Because you are an example of, you know, you've reconciled both sustainability and profitability.
23:13I mean, Vinted is so successful.
23:15Yeah, so I think, yes, we're just lucky that the line of business we're doing in is by default helping
23:21out.
23:22But I think the line of thinking that profitability and sustainability are kind of working against each other is like
23:33a very conservative, stuck kind of framework of thinking.
23:37It is actually, the huge profitability can be found in building processes that are sustainable.
23:46So, if you, for example, look at the meat industry.
23:49It's a massively unsustainable industry.
23:51We're talking like enormous industry.
23:53So, if you can build sustainably, sustainably build products that substitute meat.
23:59So, for example, you can make fake bacon like La Vie.
24:02Then you're stepping in with an innovation.
24:04And yes, that innovation is hard.
24:06But if you crack that and you build something that is sustainable, you're going to destroy and take over a
24:12multi, multi, multi-billion dollar business.
24:14So, like, is sustainability at force with profitability?
24:18No, it's a huge opportunity.
24:20I mean, I was yesterday, two days ago, I was in London.
24:23And I know La Vie because I'm an angel investor in that company.
24:27And I met also other people who are building now sustainably grown fish cells, sustainably grown chicken cells.
24:34They're building eggs.
24:36Like, so, all over the world, we have these innovators who took these hard problems and are innovating their way
24:41out of it to build massive profitable business out of this.
24:46And so, I think, yeah, anybody who is scared about sustainability in his business should not be scared about that
24:53it's going to give him a little bit of extra cost to become sustainable.
24:55He should be scared about that somebody is going to innovate on top of his business and completely destroy the
25:01industry he's in right now.
25:03So, the moment you're stuck in that thing, like, oh, it's going to cost me 20 cents more to make
25:08this sustainable, you're going to be dead in the long run.
25:11And, Raphael, what do you see, I mean, with the entrepreneurs you meet?
25:17Yeah, well, working with entrepreneurs on a daily basis is now two months with the program.
25:23I see it in a really different angle because all my founders, they're willing to change the world, to disrupt
25:29their industries.
25:30And so, they kind of forget about what is the real impact metrics on sustainability that they should prove to
25:37investors.
25:38So, we try to work a lot on that so they don't focus only on the sales because they always
25:44want to pursue selling more and have a better margin.
25:47When they actually should also work on the kind of sustainable indicator they want to pursue because they think they're
25:54doing good so that it's embedded in their business.
25:57Although, we saw that how we grow, maybe it's not that evident.
26:01But, well, so maybe this is really related to me.
26:04I wanted to point out that I think this question has never been so true as today because, well, as
26:10we're facing an approaching crisis with major inflation,
26:14I think the venture capital world is kind of shifting and we're not pursuing only growth anymore, growth or profitability
26:25as we're saying here.
26:26I think we also have to see long-term with sustainability, meaning that surviving businesses and that entrepreneurs now should
26:33actually also have in their dashboard how would they stand on their feet in case of cash shortage if they
26:43could not raise funds.
26:44And so, this is where they have to mitigate the growth with the sustainability, but not only the sustainability with
26:53doing good on the ES and GS sides.
26:58Okay.
26:58Raphael, correct me if I'm wrong.
26:59So, are you also saying that today investors have some kind of responsibility in making sure that, you know, the
27:08entrepreneurs stay on track with whatever, wherever they are heading with their purpose-driven business?
27:15You also kind of give some recommendations and make sure that they stay on track.
27:21This is also why you're putting money in their business.
27:23Yes, definitely.
27:24Well, I could not agree more with Alice actually saying that indeed companies having ESG in their core are more
27:32resilient in general and in time of crisis.
27:35But obviously now, every founder should also be actually really careful with their roadmap that they really know how to
27:44mitigate this growth approach.
27:47And, well, it's time versus money.
27:49It's what a startup is about.
27:51Alice, quick word on that one.
27:52Yes, of course.
27:55So, you talk to them, you...
27:57Yes.
27:58At Revaia, we have a team of two people that are dedicated to ESG and sustainability.
28:04So, the whole team is trained on sustainability, but we have specialized people that are senior people with experience, operational
28:13experience and consultant experience that know how to work with companies.
28:19And so, this team is building an ESG toolkit that is addressing our companies that are coming to see us
28:31and say, yes, I would like to do more, but where do I start?
28:34And so, the purpose of this initiative is to help them say, okay, this is how you think about the
28:41problem.
28:42These are the different topics that you can address.
28:44You can address your business model.
28:46So, obviously, if you're invested in a company that's called DeepKey, that's data analytics software for the real estate industry,
28:53it's addressing climate tech.
28:56It's very clear.
28:57So, either it's your business model, but you don't stop with the model.
29:00You look at your business practices, and the tool is to help them, give them benchmarks, try to connect them
29:08with advisors, because they are not going to do everything themselves.
29:11Of course, it's so hard.
29:12But a key element is how do you calculate your carbon footprint?
29:16We don't necessarily talk a lot about carbon impact of the tech industry.
29:21Nevertheless, that's huge.
29:23And so, helping them say, just explaining that that's not hard to do.
29:27We can all do it.
29:28And actually, we have noticed that we have already one company in our portfolio that is a B Corp.
29:35It's welcome to the jungle.
29:36There are plenty of others that are thinking about it.
29:39So, there is a very positive cycle.
29:42That's great to hear.
29:43Thomas, I would like to have a piece of your brain on that one.
29:46What about you when you, I mean, when you connect with investors?
29:50You go to them, and with having this in mind, it's beyond the funding, of course.
29:56You look for other criterias when you connect with investors.
30:01Yeah, yeah, of course.
30:02So, I think when you take an investor on board, you take a partner on board.
30:08And that will be on board for the long run.
30:10So, you're probably going to work together with that firm and with those people for many years.
30:16And next to that, they become part of your brand.
30:19And so, you need to make sure that you really understand where the money is coming from, that they are
30:23investing in you.
30:24That you understand what kind of other philosophies they have around how they deal with companies and people in crisis
30:33situations.
30:34And you can also look at where, you know, they put their proceeds.
30:39And so, to what extent, you know, when they make money, how do they also contribute to society?
30:44Because, like, investors are capital venture firms, are institutes to make profit.
30:50So, then it's very nice if those institutes to make profit do something useful with it.
30:54So, if I look at every round that I raised, I very critically looked at that at each of them.
31:00And I choose to work with people that give a better fit on our values.
31:05And thereby, I think I built a stronger team and created long-term more value while I was accepting lower
31:11valuations because other people were bidding, for example, higher.
31:14And thereby, I didn't completely maximize for initial value, but for long-term value and thereby creating more value with
31:22Vinted by having the right people at the table.
31:24So, I think investors are, in good times, completely useless.
31:31But in difficult times, it's very important you pick the right people because the wrong people can destroy your business.
31:37And the right people will give a lower probability you destroy it yourself.
31:43All right.
31:44So, that brings us to my next question.
31:46It's important, actually, to also align investors and entrepreneurs' expectations and vision.
31:52That's very key.
31:53You can't do it without, you know, being, like, you know, on the same page in a certain way.
31:58So, what kind of conversations are needed to ensure that everyone, you know, are aligned on the startup's mission, the
32:05entrepreneur's mission, right from the beginning?
32:08This is a little bit also what you mentioned, Thomas.
32:11Maybe Alice, quick word.
32:12Yes.
32:14Going back to the point of Thomas of entrepreneurs selecting their investors, we believe that that's fundamental.
32:23So, getting an investor is like a wedding.
32:26You're in there for the long term.
32:29And we know that it's always entrepreneurs that are picking their investors because the best companies, they have, very often,
32:37a lot of multiple options.
32:39And so, it's true that for us, also, as an investor, we know that the trajectory of a company, the
32:47number one factor for success is the quality of the management team and the culture that they put into the
32:55company.
32:55Because when we invest as a growth stage investor, the main risk that we take is the execution risk.
33:02And so, it's not the product.
33:04It's not the market.
33:05Right.
33:05It's the company able to execute.
33:07And the alignment is internal alignment within the company, but also alignment between the company and its investors.
33:17And so, we spend a lot of time with the entrepreneurs before making an investment.
33:26And even in times where we have to, in 2021, where deals are done in a very quick way, we
33:34always make sure that we have in-person time, quality time, to make sure that we align and that we
33:39share the same vision.
33:40And the key element for us, for companies to work well, between shareholders and entrepreneurs, is the governance, the board
33:48level.
33:49Because this is something that we're promoting a lot to our companies, is making sure that at the board, you
33:56have a diversity of point of view.
33:59And that the board is really creating value and not destroying value.
34:05And so, something that we recommend is instead of having only financial investors, it's good to have operational people at
34:14the board.
34:14So, to have independent board members, to have us as a fund.
34:18And also, we suggest that we're represented, so for example, when they stay into F-Store, we're represented by Clément
34:24Buise, the co-founder of PeopleDoc.
34:26So, we have executives that speak the same language.
34:29And we think that the quality of the people that you put at the board, it's really important to make
34:34sure that the key priorities are addressed in a value creation way.
34:37Fantastic.
34:38Raphael?
34:40Yeah, I think, well, I love talking also with Revaya, but with others such as Elaya in France, Citizen Capital,
34:49GoCapital, AFI Ventures.
34:51And I think we are both trying to also find the right model, whether it's about the selection at the
34:57entry of the investment process.
34:59Or is it about the ESG framework, or is it also later on, on the kind of impact you have
35:09on your investment team?
35:10Typically, what about the carried interest?
35:13What I like a lot is actually, well, at Techstars, so we are working on a roadmap to make sure
35:18that we marry well the profitability and the sustainability.
35:23So, we have an impact metric that we try to hit collectively among the 12 startups of a program.
35:30The easiest way to do it right now is the CO2 equivalent.
35:35Yeah.
35:36But me, well, you know, a program of 12 companies, I have to find something that will reconcile everyone.
35:42Because some companies are actually doing water when some others are doing air quality and some others have a social
35:49impact.
35:49So, it's really hard to, yeah, find the right metrics.
35:53But I really like also some investor model where they actually build a business plan based on sustainability that is
36:01actually a parallel business plan with the normal business plan that is about money.
36:07And the carried interest from the investor rely on both plans.
36:12So, it means if you only hit the profitability, you won't get your full carried because you also have to
36:20hit the sustainability interest.
36:24So, I think this is a way that you can really reconcile these two visions and make sure that, well,
36:30when you have to take tough decisions, as you were mentioning, Thomas, well, you don't have the right, the wrong
36:36people on your side and that you're actually both incentivized in the best way.
36:41And this is great.
36:43Thomas, you must be happy to hear things like that.
36:45For you, this is great.
36:46I mean, a few, for entrepreneurs actually having the VCs and the accelerators also looking in the same direction, which,
36:56correct me if I'm wrong, a couple of years back was not necessarily the case.
37:01I don't know what you think.
37:03Yeah, but, so, with all respect, I think it's really nice, but I think there will never be an investor
37:08who tells you, like, no, no, no, I don't want you to also be sustainable.
37:12Like, that's, it's something that everybody wants.
37:16But I think what is really nice is that because you're going to have tough moments and in tough moments
37:23you need to have on paper what you set out to do.
37:26And then if you have really on paper that, let's say, the distribution of the profit is, let's say, linked
37:32or the distribution of the return is linked to, let's say, the sustainability metrics as well.
37:36I think that that's an interesting, an interesting way to create that friction.
37:42On the other hand, you need to, in difficult times, you need to have the ability to have all the
37:47freedom you have to, you know, save the business or innovate in a way that you need to do.
37:52So, it's also a very difficult issue to solve.
37:55It's not something that is, it's very hard to capture in a mathematical model or in a payout thing.
38:03Thus, I think what is the most important is that you really see that on a values point you are
38:08aligned with your investors.
38:10You really see that previously they operated by certain values that you really appreciate.
38:15Because then in difficult situations that it's unmeasurable, you have the biggest probability that you are aligned.
38:21Not that I'm saying that it's a wrong idea, I must say I actually find it a very interesting idea.
38:26And it's very interesting because it's super difficult to actually find alignment on it, right?
38:30And also, the bigger the company, the harder it gets.
38:33So, you need also to align to make sure that everybody is on the same page.
38:38What do you think?
38:39Well, actually, I think certain things become actually easier.
38:42So, it's not that the bigger the company, everything gets more difficult.
38:47There are elements that previously were smaller that you now really have to take into account when you're really big.
38:53So, for example, one of the things that I never understood is that it's very important to really hold close
38:59contacts with governments, for example.
39:01I just thought you do the right thing and then everybody understands that and then all will be fine.
39:05Well, that's not the case.
39:07You actively need to have connections and stuff like that.
39:10So, I think there are very different elements that become, some elements become way more easier.
39:17For example, if you are more mature, proven business model, it becomes way more easier to attract capital, for example.
39:24If you are really in the beginning and you're just an idea.
39:27Yet, when you're bigger, it becomes harder to operate with governments, for example.
39:31Because in the beginning, they allow you to freestyle.
39:33And so, there are different elements that become more difficult and easier when you are at scale.
39:41Right, yes.
39:42And I agree that it's not the bigger you get, the more difficult it is.
39:48So, companies that go see Techstars, they need to focus on finding their product market fit.
39:56And so, the starting of a company, it really takes lots of energy.
40:02And putting in place all these sustainability best practices is not easy.
40:06Everybody can do it, but it's not easy.
40:08And oftentimes, as businesses scale, they have more resources.
40:12So, they can hire more people.
40:14They can spend more time in these issues.
40:17They can have a dedicated team to make sure that everyone in the company is involved about, for example, diversity
40:25and inclusion program.
40:26Making sure that there is the same level of treatment for people of diverse background.
40:32And so, I think that at every stage, you can do things.
40:36But we think that sustainability can really accelerate in the scaling up of a company.
40:42Thank you.
40:43I would like to remind our audience here in this room, but also those who are watching us remotely from
40:49all over the world,
40:50so that you can ask your questions to Thomas, Raphael, and Alice, who are here.
40:55They would be thrilled, I'm sure, to answer to your questions.
40:58I'm receiving them straight on the iPad.
41:00I think you need to go on the Vivitech digital platform, stage two.
41:04You click on the chat box, something like that, and you type your question.
41:08I will get it here.
41:09So, that was this short announcement about the Q&A and interaction, but I would like to ask you one
41:15more question.
41:17I think, from my experience, I've met lots of entrepreneurs, too, who are very, you know, purpose-driven, talking about
41:25sustainability, talking about ESG.
41:28But I cover a lot of topics in Africa, and, for example, I've met a lot of entrepreneurs in Senegal.
41:35I was in Dakar speaking to them, and then I realized that some of them have great business models, but
41:41they are not really looking at sustainability.
41:44They are more looking at survival right now.
41:46So, I'm taking this example just to set the plot.
41:49So, are you having tough conversation with entrepreneurs and startups who come to you for looking for investment,
41:56and you feel that the business is good, but they are not exactly on the right track?
42:01Are you having those tough conversations with them, telling them,
42:04Okay, guys, your business is great, but you need to shift to get to more sustainable approach, including ESG and
42:15things like that?
42:16Those are things.
42:17Can you share on that?
42:18Maybe Alice, Rafael?
42:21Go ahead, Alice.
42:25Yes, so, indeed, so, at Revaia, we don't really, so we focus on European companies, so we don't really have...
42:37No, Africa was just an example.
42:39Yeah, yeah, that's it.
42:39And so, yes, of course, we look at three pillars.
42:43One of them is the business model, the other one are the business practices,
42:47and the third pillar are the sustainable trajectories.
42:50And so, our point of view at Revaia is that we don't invest only in the 1% that are
42:57best in class
42:58and that are doing everything great in terms of business model, business practices,
43:02because, yes, you have impact because you're putting money into the right project,
43:07but you're not looking at the whole market.
43:10And so, our point of view is to look at the 90% of the market and to focus on
43:15companies that scale
43:16and to try to promote best practices with these companies.
43:22And so, as we were saying, I think that every company can change the way that can think about its
43:31carbon emissions,
43:32reduce it, think about diversity inclusion, promote it.
43:35And so, we very often time meet companies that have issues with their governance,
43:42have issues with, like, entrepreneurs, they have issues with everything.
43:46And we really think that it's interesting to be able to, year after year, improve and go into the right
43:52direction.
43:53So, and I don't know if it was, we invested, yes, a lot of our, that's the purpose of the
44:02B Corp label.
44:03B Corp is, you have it one year, but then year after year, you need to work on your roadmap
44:12to work on your KPI and to improve it.
44:14And if you're not going into the right direction, you lose it.
44:17And so, we think that it's something that we need to be improved every year.
44:22Fantastic. I think we're running out of time.
44:24We have almost done.
44:25Just a quick word, Raphael, to finish and Thomas.
44:31Well, so I think our conclusion is great.
44:35It's definitely, you can be sustainable and profitable.
44:38Just it's about also pursuing the right goal, setting up the right expectation.
44:43You can only promote what you assess, actually.
44:47So, it's the same for sustainability and profitability.
44:51Whether you're just starting your company or whether you're already an experienced founder,
44:57it's always about having a roadmap, pursuing the mind stone and be surrounded by the right community of people that
45:04can help you reach your target.
45:06Thomas, one word to all the entrepreneurs watching us.
45:10Yeah, I mean, like, lots of good advices.
45:13But if you're going to really innovate, then you're going to do something that nobody's done before.
45:17So, all these advices on how to do it are probably not relevant for you.
45:20So, really just go and do it.
45:22Try it.
45:23And you'll fail a couple times.
45:24But keep on trying and you'll get there.
45:28And then we'll finish on that.
45:30Thank you, Thomas, Alice, and Raphael for being with us.
45:32It was great to have you.
45:34Stay with me, guys.
45:35Thank you very much.
45:36And, of course, it's now time to take a very short break.
45:39We will be back in a few minutes for our next session.
45:45And for all those who are watching us online and wish to continue watching, make sure you click on Stage
45:502 banner on the digital platform.
45:52And also, you can click on Stage 2 button that is in the chat right.
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