00:00Lots of questions that we will raise one by one, but my first guest tonight is A.S. Dullat,
00:05former special director of RAW, someone who headed RAW for years, also the former RAW
00:14chief, as I said. Joining me now is Mr. Dullat. Appreciate your joining us, sir.
00:19How do you see this Nikhil Gupta case playing out? The U.S. Department of Justice press
00:25release clearly says, Nikhil Gupta worked at the behest of an Indian government employee
00:31to arrange the murder of a Sikh separatist leader. Do you see this as an embarrassment
00:37for the government and the RNAW?
00:43No, I don't know exactly what is happening, but I mean, if this fellow has confessed and
00:51turned an approver, then it could mean anything, you know. He may have been a plant all along.
00:58Are you saying as the Indian government sources are now claiming this was a rogue operation,
01:03can we just go with that or do you believe given the voluminous documents now available
01:08with the U.S. authorities, this was a covert operation launched by possibly RAW that went
01:15horribly wrong?
01:19Well, if it's gone wrong, then yeah, it has gone horribly wrong. But I would go along with
01:27the government version here that I feel and I felt earlier also that this fellow could have
01:33been a plant, you know. The ease in which he is confessing and has become an approver means
01:42that he could have been a plant all along and fooled us.
01:46But whose plant could he have been? Why would Nikhil Gupta be a plant of anyone other than
01:50the government?
01:54Obviously an American plant.
01:57Sir, you're saying that, you know, he could be a U.S. plant, but at the end of the day,
02:01I want to repeat what the Department of Justice United States statement is saying based on the
02:08FBI investigation, the fact is an individual has pleaded guilty to plotting the assassination
02:14of a U.S. citizen, Gurpatwan Singh Pannoon, a Khalistani separatist. Could such an operation,
02:22Prima FAC, have taken place without someone in the Indian government authorizing it? Could
02:26an individual like Nikhil Gupta simply hire someone and do it on his own?
02:35Yeah, but there's a, there's another question here which arises. How did in the first instance,
02:41how did, there was no assassination attempt or anything, how in the first instance did
02:48the Americans know that there was a threat to Gurpat, Patwan Singh or whatever his name
02:54is, how did they know? It could have been the same fellow, Nikhil Gupta, who was telling
02:59them. So the fact is, the fact is, sir, the report suggests, some reports suggest that
03:06there is a new muscular Indian strategy in such operation that we will take out people
03:12who are involved in activities against India, whether they are based in U.S. or Canada.
03:18If we see them, identify them as separatists or terrorist group, do you believe that these
03:23kind of attempts extraterritorial can be justified or are we on a slippery slope if that is going
03:30to be the approach of the government of India?
03:36No, no, I would never justify that. And I don't believe we have done these things, you know.
03:43I've all along said this, I don't believe, we've never done it. I've been in the business myself and
03:49we've never done these things. And I don't believe we are doing this now also. And if this was some
03:57kind
03:57of an operation, then it was a terrible operation. That's all I can say.
04:02You're saying, but sir, across the world, Israel's Mossad, USA's CIA are known to conduct such
04:09covert operations. Only in most cases, they don't get caught. But are you saying that there is a red
04:14line that India must draw, that these are not operations that Indian government should get
04:18involved or sanction at any level? Am I correct?
04:23Absolutely. Absolutely. We have never got involved and I don't think we are involved.
04:29Sir, you are categorically saying time and again that we are not involved. But I will ask you again,
04:34why should America cook up such a case? We have a strong relationship with the Americans. Why would
04:40they cook up such a case that only ends up embarrassing the Indian government that has seen an Indian
04:45national now facing a potentially very long period behind bars? Even if you do an operation,
04:50you don't get caught. That's the rule of the spy world.
04:57But he's done it himself, hasn't he? He's confessed himself. He says that he was involved.
05:04That's why I suspect he could have been a plant all along, you know. He could have been a US
05:10agent
05:10all along or a CIA agent all along. Whereas we thought that he was working for us if he was
05:18in touch with somebody. But if he was so innocent, Mr. Dullaj, should he not have fought the charges
05:24instead of pleading guilty in the US court when he pleads guilty, obviously to offset some of the
05:30punishment he will get? The fact is, I repeat, all of this is based on documentation, investigation
05:37that the US authorities have carried out. How can we dismiss it casually?
05:45Well, you're saying the same thing in a different way from what I'm saying. That where, how, and why has
05:53he confessed so easily?
05:54You know, and why at this point of time? I mean, this story is not, happened just today or yesterday.
06:04It's three years old or whatever.
06:06So, how did it take so long? And what is, why the timing at this point of time, you know?
06:14And you, yeah.
06:16But, but, sir, but, sir, he has also named an individual called Vikas Yadav. They say that he was an
06:22Indian government employee
06:24allegedly working in the cabinet secretariat. He's the one who hired Nikhil Gupta, who then hired a killer
06:29to bump off Pannu. There is an Indian angle at, right, which leads right up to the doorstep of the
06:35government, sir.
06:39I don't know whether it leads to the doorstep of our government, but who, who is this fellow Yadav?
06:46Has he been identified? Do we know who he is? Except that there used to be mention of somebody called
06:53CC1.
06:55Sir, the, Yadav is specifically mentioned in the U.S. documentation, the fact that is the Indian government
07:02says he's no longer in service. This, the fact is, it could either be a rogue operation conducted
07:09without any authorization at any level is what you seem to suggest, but is that really possible?
07:14Can rogue operations of this nature take place without someone in the Indian government
07:18at the higher levels knowing about this? No, I don't believe that, but I don't say, at the same
07:26time, as I say, we've never been involved in these kind of operations, you know, trying to bump off
07:33somebody in a third country and that also in the United States. Why would we do it? As you say,
07:39we have a good relationship with the Americans. Why would we do it? And, and Pannu in any case was
07:46not
07:46bumped off. There was no, no attack on him. So how did, how did anybody come to know that he
07:52was under threat?
07:53Sir, sir, but let me, sir, let me substantiate what I just said. The fact is, two years ago,
07:59Canada raised a red flag about another Khalistani leader, Nijjar, who was killed in 2023.
08:04They pointed fingers at India, destroyed Indo-Canadian relationships. They alleged India,
08:10Indian government had hired the Lawrence Bishnoye gang to carry out this killing. So there seems to be a pattern.
08:19Yeah, I, I, I, I remember that Nijjar case and it was, it was unfortunate, however it happened or whatever.
08:27But I had said at that point also that we don't do these things. We don't get involved in these
08:32things,
08:32you know. Sir, you say we don't, you're saying we don't do these things. Now that could have been
08:37when you were in charge at RAW, things may have changed. There are those who believe that within the
08:41present Modi government, there are those who feel there is a need for a more muscular policy in
08:45dealing with terrorists and separatists, even if it means possibly these hired assassinations.
08:54So if, if things have changed so dramatically, then you have to ask people who are in the business
09:00now, you know. But I still don't believe that our organization could be involved in this kind of
09:07nonsense. It makes no sense. It achieves nothing. Tell me by, by bumping off Nijjar or Pannu, what do we
09:16gain? There has to be a gain somewhere, no? We, we had so many opportunities to, for instance, to give
09:24you an example, to bump off Gilani in Kashmir, who was much more of a nuisance. But we didn't do
09:31it.
09:31We didn't touch a Kashmiri. No Kashmiri was targeted or killed by us. Whereas Pakistan kept killing
09:40Kashmiris. Whoever, whoever fell out with them was, was bumped off. Did you, let me ask you honestly,
09:47did you ever plan to do a similar operation on Dawud Ibrahim, one of India's most wanted based in
09:53Pakistan and Dubai? Honest answer. Was that ever planned?
10:00No, no, no, no way. No. How would you do it? And, okay, now you've got it. Now you talk
10:07about a
10:08muscular policy. Then why have we not got the Dawud? Tell me. Or why have we not attempted getting a
10:14Dawud? Is it, is it that we have more capability in America and Canada than in Pakistan? It makes no
10:22sense at all. Sir, I'm asking you that, have we chosen to do, you know, if Israel was confronted
10:29with a Dawud-like problem, they would have probably gone ahead and at least attempted to take him out.
10:34Are you saying that in India, red line is clearly drawn by the political executive?
10:42Of course, there is a red line. And of course, these are political decisions, ultimately. You know,
10:49you or I or nobody else can do it on their own. If the top brass doesn't want it, it
10:55won't be done.
10:56And if they want it, then why was, why has Dawud not been targeted all this while? What you're
11:02suggesting then is that we have greater capability in the United States and in Canada than in Pakistan?
11:10And that is, again, difficult to believe. So, may I just ask you in conclusion, why you would say
11:16we don't need real-life Dhurandars? Am I correct? That real-life Dhurandars only exist on cinema,
11:22not in real life, where you go into Pakistan, for example, and take out someone?
11:30You're right. You're right. You're right. This is the note.
11:35Okay. On that note, I appreciate you joining us, Mr. Dullat.
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