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Murder At The Post Office - Season 1 Episode 2 - The Last Eyewitness
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00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:20They said that they found this weapon, murder weapon.
00:24They said that it had DNA on it, but nothing of Robin.
00:33There was nothing there at all to say that Robin had done it.
00:37There was no physical piece of evidence to link Robin
00:40to the death of Dinah, at all.
00:43Not on his clothes from the minute he found her
00:46to being arrested to any of it.
00:49There was nothing. There's never been anything, has there?
00:52No. So we were confident.
00:54Everybody kept saying, we'll be fine, we'll be fine.
00:56In terms of prosecution case,
00:58my abiding memory of the evidence
01:00is that he was eviscerated in the dock.
01:02But then the jury told in court
01:05his DNA is not on the weapon.
01:09And that's, from a prosecution perspective, really difficult.
01:14Everyone in court was thinking
01:15there is a great element of doubt there
01:17and he may be innocent.
01:29And you're in for the emergency.
01:31Armed police were scrambled to a quiet North Yorkshire hamlet
01:34this morning.
01:35The wife's been attacked.
01:37She's been attacked.
01:38He had a gun and he said to me,
01:40don't be stupid, we've got your wife.
01:4440-year-old Diana was found dead
01:46in the living quarters of the post office she ran
01:48with her husband Robin in the village of Melsenby.
01:51The husband of North Yorkshire postmistress,
01:53Diana Garbutt, has been charged with her murder.
01:56His version of events of a robber coming in and killing her,
01:58it just wasn't plausible.
02:01I started to wonder,
02:03does that make him walk guilty?
02:06But clearly there were flaws in that original investigation.
02:11I think the more in the court these things came up,
02:14the more you thought,
02:15well, something's going wrong here.
02:18I'm not a police officer, I'm not a detective,
02:20but clearly something's not being done properly.
02:24Something just didn't add up.
02:28The prosecution believed Robin had been stealing
02:30from the post office over a period of time.
02:34And that was based on information provided
02:36by the Horizon system.
02:39The post office prosecuted 736 of their own staff
02:43for theft or false accounting.
02:45The real culprit, the Horizon computer system.
02:50When they finally got the records,
02:52I looked at the statements and immediately I said,
02:55well, hang on a minute, in my opinion,
02:56there's another side to this story.
03:00If there's flaws in this Horizon system,
03:04how can anything produced by the Horizon system
03:08be safely used in a court of law as evidence?
03:11It's about getting the truth about what happened to Diana.
03:17I know.
03:18I know.
03:19I know.
03:20I know.
03:21I know.
03:22I know.
03:23I know.
03:27I know.
03:29But I know.
03:31I know.
03:32During the court process,
03:44you feel as if you're supposed to be in one camp or the other.
03:49Obviously, his family are persuaded that he's not guilty,
03:53whereas Di's family, her mum, Agnes,
03:58was persuaded that, you know,
04:00we've worked out what's happened, he's guilty,
04:03we're just going to go through this process of proving him guilty.
04:09I was in the, I don't know if he's guilty or not, guilty camp.
04:16I don't know what happened.
04:18Try and decide as if he was a 13th member of the jury.
04:22Members of the jury,
04:33you are now going to hear from Mr. Hill,
04:35who appears on behalf of the defense.
04:39Ladies and gentlemen,
04:41I am going to suggest the prosecution case is no more than a theory,
04:45one which the police happened upon at an early stage.
04:48The area which the prosecution have perhaps concentrated on the most
04:54is the idea of motive.
04:57The prosecution have explored two areas,
05:00Mr. Garbutt's private life and their personal finances.
05:05Hearing what people were saying about Robin Di at trial,
05:10their personal life,
05:11for a lot of people in the village,
05:13it was very hurtful.
05:15They made out that she was, like, sleeping around and things.
05:20We have a close friend who had been going biking with her,
05:25and, again, they had to say that
05:29that was some sort of relationship going on
05:31because she couldn't go biking with somebody on her own or whatever.
05:35In 2009, we had a bit of a rough patch.
05:40It happened sometimes with couples.
05:43Diana said she might need some space.
05:45We discussed it.
05:47When you get up at 4.30 and work late in a shop,
05:50you are tired.
05:52We didn't have enough sex.
05:55It upset Di at times,
05:57but we did discuss it.
05:58The prosecution suggested that it was a loveless marriage,
06:02that his wife was being unfaithful
06:03and was in contact with several men,
06:05either directly or through the internet.
06:10Di did confide in me quite a bit.
06:14Not about everything.
06:17We would sit and have coffee, you know,
06:19and chat, as friends would do.
06:24In terms of affairs,
06:25I didn't know any of that.
06:30I don't know.
06:33I can't answer that one.
06:35She quite liked to chat to people
06:37and just, you know, spend time with them,
06:40getting to know them,
06:41regardless of who they were
06:43or what age they were
06:44or, you know, male or female.
06:46And that could have come across as being flirtatious.
06:51The court also heard that Mrs Garbert
06:53had a page on a dating website
06:55on which she described herself
06:58as a 41-year-old girl
07:00looking to meet a guy
07:01aged between 35 and 50.
07:06The prosecution set great store
07:08by the Bidou website.
07:10Although the computer crime unit
07:12trawled through Diana's laptop,
07:13there was no sign at all
07:14that she ever replied
07:15to any compliment or message saying,
07:18hello.
07:18They were saying that
07:20she was on a dating website.
07:22I didn't know that.
07:23She'd never told me that.
07:25She'd never replied to anybody
07:27on this dating site.
07:29All it was was people messaging her
07:31or liking her picture.
07:33And all I could think of
07:34was that she kind of needed
07:36that bit of an ego boost.
07:37You know, she was...
07:38Maybe her self-esteem
07:39was struggling a little bit.
07:41Did you suspect
07:43she was having affairs
07:44with other men?
07:45I didn't suspect
07:46I was having affairs.
07:48As of March 2010,
07:50what did you think
07:51of the relationship?
07:53We had the best relationship.
07:55I thought we were
07:56a loving couple.
07:57I miss her terribly.
07:59They're making Di out
08:00to be somebody that
08:01kissed and got drunk
08:03and flirted.
08:04And it's wrong to do that
08:05when she's not here
08:06to say why.
08:08She can't answer for herself.
08:09There was one drunken kiss.
08:11There was flirtatious banter.
08:13It wasn't anything new
08:14to Robin, was it, any of that?
08:16It was a...
08:17a drunken kiss.
08:20Di went back to Robin
08:21and told him everything.
08:23They sorted it out.
08:24It was fine.
08:25And they carried on.
08:27The thing is,
08:27it's a year ago.
08:28It isn't a month ago.
08:30It wasn't the week.
08:31They had a wonderful marriage,
08:33didn't they?
08:33They worked through
08:34the bits and bobs.
08:36They've always done that
08:37because they've always talked.
08:38They've always been close.
08:39There only is them two.
08:40There's no children.
08:41Either of them could walk away
08:42but they built a relationship together
08:44and he was devoted to her
08:46and they were fine.
08:48The prosecution said
08:50Diana Garbutt's infidelity
08:51intensified
08:52but there is absolutely
08:53no evidence
08:54of that whatsoever.
08:57I suggest
08:58it is very, very
08:59thin evidence of motive.
09:01In fact,
09:01no evidence of motive at all.
09:03So their motive
09:06must have been
09:07their financial affairs,
09:08of course.
09:09Personal finance.
09:11Why is this a reason
09:12for him to kill his wife?
09:16Di and Robin
09:17never talked about
09:18their financials.
09:20They weren't extravagant.
09:22They didn't have
09:23luxury holidays.
09:25They didn't go out
09:26for expensive meals
09:29and things like that.
09:31But there was lots of rumours
09:33that Robin was stealing
09:34from the post office
09:35by ordering lots of money
09:38and then not sending it back.
09:45Cash management
09:46was an important part
09:47of running a branch.
09:48Part of your
09:50end of day procedure
09:51would be to count
09:53every single note,
09:54every single coin
09:55in the branch
09:56and that had to be
09:57entered into
09:58the Horizon system.
10:00Once you'd done that
10:02you could then
10:02put the money away,
10:04lock up the safe
10:04and that was
10:05the end of your day.
10:07That assisted then
10:08this algorithm
10:09to work out
10:10whether surpluses
10:11were building up
10:12or whether funds
10:13were running low
10:14and then it would
10:15adjust the cash
10:16that it would deliver to you.
10:18But it didn't actually
10:20work like that
10:21in practice
10:22because invariably
10:24it was wrong
10:25and there were
10:26always arguments
10:27between postmaster
10:28and cash centre
10:29as to whether or not
10:31he could top up
10:32his holdings
10:33in the branch
10:34with extra money.
10:36It was a constant
10:37thorn in our side
10:39trying to get
10:40the cash levels right
10:41in a branch
10:42in order to
10:43serve the customers.
10:48The police
10:49and the post office
10:50looked into
10:51Robin Dyer's finances
10:52and they said
10:53that Robin had been
10:55stealing over a period
10:56of time to sustain
10:57their lifestyle.
10:58They said that
10:59Robin was ordering
10:59more and more money
11:00from the post office
11:01and using it like
11:02a bank almost.
11:04However,
11:05there is no physical
11:06evidence
11:06of Robin doing
11:08anything untoward
11:09with money
11:09that could have been
11:11taken from the post office.
11:12Where did all the cash
11:15come from?
11:17We weren't desperate.
11:18We didn't take cash
11:19from the post office.
11:22Our credit card debt
11:23had increased.
11:24We were mindful of that.
11:25We spent weekends
11:27away at nice hotels.
11:29We spent maybe
11:30£4,000 per annum
11:31on holidays.
11:33To the post office.
11:35Well,
11:36the prosecution
11:36invested a lot of time
11:38suggesting that the money
11:39may not have been
11:40in the safe.
11:40So the evidence
11:42given by the post office,
11:44a reputable institution,
11:46I'm sure the jury
11:46will have just
11:47taken that on board.
11:47That's going to be right.
11:49We aren't even
11:49going to question that.
11:50And to be quite honest,
11:52the way they gave it all,
11:54it lost everybody
11:55in the courtroom anyway.
11:57They lost me.
11:58If the Garbards
11:59had been in
12:00desperate financial straits,
12:02why is this a reason
12:04for him to kill his wife?
12:05It is a matter
12:06for you to consider.
12:08The prosecution evidence
12:09is essentially
12:09that it's a crime
12:10of passion.
12:11When you've got,
12:12you know,
12:13adulterous relationships,
12:14when you've got
12:15unhappiness,
12:15when you've got
12:16financial difficulties,
12:18you've got an awful lot
12:18of pressure on a relationship
12:19there, haven't you?
12:20Tension and potential,
12:22you know,
12:22motive for the murder.
12:23Do not forget,
12:24it was Diana
12:25who was doing the books.
12:27Diana who liaised
12:28with the accountant.
12:29She was the one
12:30who had a handle
12:31on the financial situation.
12:33Diana's the postmistress.
12:35The police say
12:36Diana had been doing
12:36the accounts,
12:37and so she would have known
12:39before 2010
12:41if there'd been
12:42anything missing.
12:50I think the prosecution
12:53at the trial
12:54didn't have a clue
12:56at any direction
12:57they were going.
12:58They were just
12:59jumping at ideas.
13:01so what they brought forward
13:03was it was stealing
13:04from the post office.
13:05When that wasn't
13:07working so well,
13:08it was Diane
13:08was having an affair.
13:10And when that wasn't
13:11working so well,
13:12something else
13:13would be thrown in.
13:14I don't think
13:15they had a direction
13:16or any idea.
13:18They were fumbling
13:19all the way through it.
13:20For somebody
13:24to be doing
13:24the job
13:25that they're doing
13:25and there to be
13:27no physical evidence
13:28for him to have killed her,
13:30none whatsoever,
13:32it really is unbelievable.
13:34For me,
13:35I would have to have
13:35physical evidence
13:36to say someone
13:37had killed someone.
13:38I was involved
13:49in the investigation
13:50early on.
13:52And the investigation team
13:54had a set of images
13:56of the bedroom
13:57where Diana was found
13:59before any samples
14:02really have been taken,
14:03before exhibits
14:04have been removed.
14:05So I can see
14:08what it was like
14:09at the moment
14:10that that scene
14:11came under police control.
14:15The crime scene
14:17essentially was
14:18the bedroom
14:19above the post office itself.
14:22It was just
14:23a regular dwelling
14:24where there was
14:26a double bed,
14:27bedside tables
14:28and lamps.
14:31There were images
14:33that showed Diana
14:35on the bed
14:36and she was positioned
14:40on her back
14:41on effectively
14:42the left-hand side
14:43of the bed
14:44and it was clear
14:46that there was
14:46an enormous amount
14:47of blood staining
14:48that was present
14:49on the sheets
14:50and on the bedding.
15:05further on at the trial
15:07we've learnt
15:08more of the detail
15:10you know
15:10that she'd been
15:11hit on the head
15:12from behind
15:12and you know
15:15more than likely
15:16that she was asleep
15:17at the time.
15:19A post-mortem
15:21later confirmed
15:22three distinct
15:23head injuries
15:23blows delivered
15:25by a blunt object
15:26likely a metal rod.
15:28that was so distressing
15:31so distressing
15:33and I kept thinking
15:34why three?
15:36You know
15:37why have you done it
15:38three times?
15:39That's just evil.
15:42A reconstruction
15:43was carried out
15:44with the head
15:44of a mannequin
15:45to test
15:46the sequence
15:47of events.
15:47The pathologist
15:54drew on this head
15:55the injuries
15:57that Diana
15:58had sustained
15:58and then
16:00that allowed us
16:01then to sort of
16:03use this
16:03as a three-dimensional
16:04prop
16:05that we could then
16:06realign it
16:07with the pillow
16:08to try and understand
16:10how the blood staining
16:11might have developed
16:12from the injuries.
16:14If her head's
16:15in the pillow
16:15facing
16:17to her left
16:19then she's
16:19probably asleep
16:20when the first
16:22blow is delivered
16:23and then turned
16:24to face her right
16:26which is very likely
16:28where the assailant
16:29was stood
16:30and where there are
16:32two additional blows
16:33in one order
16:34or the other.
16:37They often say
16:38that the victim
16:39is the last eyewitness
16:40and probably
16:42she turned
16:43to see her assailant.
16:47the women
16:49in the family
16:50are the strong
16:52characters
16:52you know
16:54whoever did it
16:55you know
16:56put Robin
16:57as one of the
16:58options
16:59but
17:00if it wasn't Robin
17:01somebody else
17:02put an end to her life
17:03in a brutal
17:04cowardly way
17:06and you know
17:09if you're a fighter
17:09you don't expect
17:12that to happen
17:12do you?
17:17I was really worried
17:18about my dad
17:19knowing that he'd be
17:21exposed to
17:23the level of detail
17:25of the crime
17:26and how close he was
17:29to Diana
17:29knowing that he'd have
17:30to sit and listen
17:32to you know
17:34horrendous details
17:36about her death.
17:42He hadn't gone
17:43into court
17:44gunning for Robin
17:45being guilty
17:46he didn't see it
17:49like that at all
17:50he just
17:51wanted to
17:52establish
17:54as many facts
17:55as possible
17:56and
17:56wanted to make
17:57sense of it.
18:06The pillow
18:07is kind of like
18:08the cover
18:09of the book
18:10you know
18:12it's like
18:13the picture
18:13and you think
18:15I wonder
18:15what the detail
18:16is within it.
18:18There was a kind
18:19of brown
18:20smear
18:21and it was
18:23this kind of
18:24transfer
18:25of material
18:26that went
18:26across the pillow
18:27it wasn't blood
18:29but it was brown
18:31so it looked
18:32like perhaps
18:33a rust-like
18:34type material.
18:36Just to put
18:37this in context
18:38doctor
18:38there is evidence
18:39of DNA
18:39on the pillow
18:40and the DNA
18:41does not match
18:43Mr. Garbut.
18:44Yes.
18:47And the reality
18:49is that this
18:49could be DNA
18:50from a murderer.
18:53Potentially
18:53yes.
18:55they said
18:56that it
18:56had DNA
18:57on it
18:57but nothing
18:58could rob it.
18:59But unknown
19:00male DNA
19:00and dies.
19:02And dies.
19:04Just the fact
19:05that there
19:05had been
19:05unknown male
19:06DNA
19:06suggests
19:07straight away
19:08that there
19:09is other
19:09people
19:10involved in
19:11this.
19:12Otherwise
19:12why would
19:13unknown male
19:14DNA
19:14be on the
19:15pillow?
19:16The alleged
19:29murder weapon
19:29the iron bar
19:30was found
19:31two days
19:32later
19:32about 20
19:35yards away
19:35from the
19:36house
19:36on top
19:38of a
19:39an 8 foot
19:4010 foot
19:41high stone
19:42wall.
19:45It was proven
19:46one end
19:46of the
19:47murder weapon
19:48was Diana's
19:49DNA.
19:49She'd been
19:50struck by it.
19:52And on the
19:52other end
19:53of the
19:53murder weapon
19:53was the
19:55DNA of a
19:56policeman.
19:57No DNA of
19:58robbing
19:58whatsoever
19:59on the
20:00murder weapon.
20:01I'm in
20:05North Yorkshire
20:05Police.
20:06I'm
20:07currently
20:07based at
20:08York.
20:09On
20:09March 25th
20:10there was
20:11a search
20:11for linear
20:12objects
20:12at
20:12Nelsonby.
20:14The
20:14whole
20:14of my
20:14team
20:15was
20:15deployed.
20:18How did
20:19your DNA
20:20get in
20:21areas
20:21B and
20:22C?
20:23I can't
20:24recall if
20:25I touched
20:25it.
20:26DNA
20:27can be
20:27transferred
20:27airborne.
20:29I may
20:30have
20:30touched
20:30it.
20:31I did
20:31not
20:31pick
20:32it up.
20:33It's
20:34such an
20:35important
20:36thing that
20:36his DNA
20:37is on
20:37that
20:37murder
20:37weapon
20:38at
20:38the
20:38opposite
20:39end
20:39of
20:41Diana's
20:41DNA.
20:44In
20:44your
20:45second
20:45interview
20:46you
20:46were
20:46asked
20:47several
20:47times
20:48about
20:48your
20:48whereabouts
20:49on
20:49the
20:4923rd?
20:51There's
20:52a number
20:52of things
20:52I could
20:53have
20:53been
20:53doing.
20:54It's
20:54six months
20:55down
20:55the
20:55line.
20:56I
20:56checked
20:56the
20:57telephone,
20:58bank
20:58statements
20:58and my
20:59mobile phone.
20:59I can't
21:00find
21:00out.
21:04Clearly
21:05there were
21:05flaws in that
21:06original
21:06investigation.
21:07There's
21:07no two
21:07ways about
21:07it.
21:08To have
21:09a potential
21:09murder
21:09weapon and
21:10for the
21:11DNA to
21:11be
21:12contaminated
21:12in that
21:13way,
21:14that's
21:14from a
21:14prosecution
21:15perspective
21:15really
21:16difficult.
21:18Everyone
21:19in court
21:19was thinking
21:19there is
21:20a great
21:20element
21:21of doubt
21:21there and
21:23he may
21:23be
21:23innocent.
21:33Mr.
21:34Garbert,
21:35when do
21:35you think
21:36Diana died
21:37on that
21:38morning?
21:38I don't
21:39know.
21:40I have
21:40been going
21:40through this
21:41in my
21:41head.
21:42I think
21:42it happened
21:42between
21:434.30am
21:44and
21:44half past
21:448.
21:45And you
21:46heard
21:46nothing
21:46of anyone
21:47moving
21:47upstairs?
21:48No.
21:49A big
21:50play was
21:50made of
21:51the fact
21:51that there
21:51was a
21:51struggle
21:51upstairs.
21:52His
21:52wife
21:53was
21:53murdered
21:53and he
21:53was
21:53completely
21:54unaware
21:54of it.
21:56She
21:56would
21:56have
21:56put
21:56up
21:57a
21:57fight,
21:57wouldn't
21:57she?
21:58I
21:59would
21:59have
21:59thought
21:59so
21:59knowing
22:00die,
22:00yes.
22:01But
22:02you
22:02heard
22:02nothing
22:02whatsoever?
22:03No
22:04struggle
22:04or
22:05fight
22:05or
22:05scream?
22:07I
22:07did
22:07not
22:08hear
22:08anything.
22:09So
22:09it
22:09appears
22:10that
22:10your
22:10wife
22:11has
22:11been
22:11killed
22:11without
22:12any
22:12apparent
22:13struggle?
22:14I
22:14don't
22:14agree
22:15with
22:15that.
22:16There
22:16was
22:16a
22:17clump
22:17of
22:17hair
22:17by
22:17her
22:18head
22:18which
22:18suggests
22:19a
22:19struggle.
22:21There
22:21was a
22:21big
22:21projector
22:22and a
22:22slide
22:22put up
22:23and it
22:25showed
22:25a clump
22:26of
22:26hair
22:26on the
22:28bed
22:28near the
22:29pillow.
22:30It
22:31was
22:31a
22:32shock
22:33because
22:35my
22:35first
22:36thought
22:36in my
22:37head
22:37is
22:37that
22:38die
22:38must
22:39have
22:40kicked
22:40into
22:41her
22:41army
22:41and
22:42fought
22:43and
22:44that
22:44what
22:44she's
22:45done
22:45is
22:45pulled
22:45the
22:46clump
22:46of
22:46hair
22:46out
22:46that
22:47person.
22:48It
22:48wasn't
22:49the
22:49colour
22:49of
22:49Robin's
22:50hair.
22:50It
22:50wasn't
22:51the
22:51colour
22:51of
22:51Diana's
22:52hair.
22:53It
22:53was
22:53a
22:53different
22:54colour
22:54hair.
22:58Obviously
22:58they could
22:59have tested
22:59the route,
23:00got the
23:00DNA.
23:01If it
23:01was on
23:01the
23:01database
23:02they
23:02could
23:02have
23:02told
23:03you
23:03who
23:03it
23:03was.
23:06However,
23:07North Yorkshire
23:08police
23:08happened to
23:09lose
23:10the
23:11clump
23:11of
23:11hair.
23:12Well,
23:12they asked
23:12where it
23:12was,
23:13didn't
23:13they?
23:13They
23:13show it
23:13on the
23:14track,
23:14they
23:14show it
23:15on the
23:15projector,
23:15didn't
23:16they?
23:16And then
23:16they said,
23:16could you
23:17produce
23:17that?
23:17And they
23:18said,
23:18no,
23:18we
23:18can't
23:18because
23:19we
23:19don't
23:19know
23:19where
23:19it is.
23:19We've
23:20lost
23:20it.
23:25The
23:25head being
23:26lost as
23:26an exhibit is
23:27extraordinary,
23:28really.
23:29It's just
23:30like one
23:31thing after
23:31another,
23:32after
23:32another.
23:33It
23:33just
23:34beggars
23:35belief.
23:36I'm not a
23:37police officer,
23:38I'm not a
23:38detective,
23:39but
23:39clearly
23:40something's
23:41not being
23:42done properly.
23:44I think
23:45they thought,
23:46right,
23:46Robin's done
23:47it and
23:47therefore we're
23:48going to
23:48concentrate on
23:49just the
23:50evidence to
23:51fit that and
23:52not look further
23:53afield.
23:54I think the
23:54more in the
23:55court these
23:56things came up,
23:57the more you
23:58thought, well,
23:59something's going
23:59wrong here.
24:00Something's
24:01happening here
24:01that isn't
24:02coming out
24:03right because
24:04this all can't
24:05be happening.
24:05The errors
24:07that were
24:07made in terms
24:08of the
24:09handling of
24:09the murder
24:09weapon and
24:11also with
24:11a clump of
24:12air, it
24:12being lost,
24:14that leaves
24:15that doubt,
24:16doesn't it,
24:17to a certain
24:17degree.
24:20But I would
24:21suggest that
24:21it is pretty
24:22much eradicated
24:23by all the
24:23rest of the
24:23evidence against
24:24him, really.
24:25On the night
24:34before the
24:34murder, Mr.
24:35Garbert had
24:36gone to
24:36Batley's and
24:38other stores
24:39before picking
24:40up fish and
24:41chips.
24:42He returned
24:43home between
24:448 and
24:458.30pm.
24:47I took the
24:48fish and chips
24:49into the
24:49house,
24:51died portioned
24:52it up.
24:53I was asleep
24:54by 9.30,
24:55for the
24:57prosecution,
24:58when she had
24:59her final meal
24:59and when she
25:00died, time of
25:01death was
25:01absolutely crucial.
25:03Dr. Jennifer
25:04Miller examined
25:05the contents of
25:06the deceased
25:06stomach after
25:07the post-mortem.
25:08How do you
25:09make the
25:10assessment?
25:11Digestion
25:12can cease on
25:13death or on
25:13onset of
25:14severe trauma.
25:16She'd had
25:16fish and chips
25:16apparently that
25:17had been
25:18digested and
25:19you can tell
25:20a time of
25:21death from
25:21the contents
25:22of somebody's
25:22stomach because
25:23it stops being
25:23digested obviously
25:24when someone
25:24dies.
25:25The timescale
25:26is most likely
25:27six to eight
25:28hours after
25:29consumption.
25:30Six and
25:31eight hours
25:32later.
25:33So taking
25:34the latest
25:34of those two
25:35times, 8.30,
25:37would mean that
25:37the digestive
25:38process most
25:39likely ceased
25:40between 2.30
25:41and 4.30
25:43in the morning?
25:44Most likely,
25:45yes.
25:46They had an
25:47expert witness
25:48who said that
25:49they've examined
25:50the stomach contents
25:51and she died
25:54in line with
25:55the prosecution
25:55case.
25:57She was so
25:57powerful in
25:58the dock,
25:59everybody thought,
26:00oh my God,
26:01that was quite
26:01bad evidence
26:03against Robin.
26:05The really key
26:06evidence against
26:07him was about
26:07the fact that
26:08the pathologist
26:08had said that
26:09she died in the
26:10early hours of
26:10the morning.
26:11So his account
26:12of her being
26:13murdered just
26:13before the
26:14robber came
26:14down and took
26:16the money from
26:16the safe and
26:17then left the
26:17premises,
26:17that came
26:19to start
26:19to fall apart
26:20really.
26:30In my
26:31experience,
26:32the way
26:32postman's
26:32alarms would
26:33work is that
26:34they're
26:34time-lock safes.
26:39That morning,
26:40the unlocking
26:40process commenced
26:41at exactly
26:428.31
26:43and 54
26:44seconds
26:45a.m.
26:47you're
26:49getting a
26:50beep,
26:50beep,
26:50beep,
26:51beep,
26:51beep sound
26:52for about
26:53four minutes
26:53and then when
26:55it went silent,
26:56the locks had
26:57been undone.
27:02The jury
27:03was told in
27:04court that
27:04there was
27:05only two
27:05minutes between
27:06safe opening
27:07and him making
27:08the 999 call.
27:09In fact,
27:09it was less
27:09than two minutes.
27:11Ambulance,
27:11what's the address
27:12of the emergency?
27:13It's the
27:14car shop
27:142 East Road,
27:15Nelsonbury.
27:16The robbery
27:17had to have
27:18taken place
27:19between 8.35
27:2054 and
27:218.37
27:22and 13
27:24seconds.
27:25So if you
27:27take his
27:27decision of events
27:28at face value,
27:30robber has to
27:30get in,
27:31get the money
27:31out,
27:32make the threats
27:33to him,
27:33and then he's
27:34got away
27:35in less than
27:36two minutes.
27:37I opened
27:40the safe
27:40door,
27:41pulled the
27:42stamp tray
27:42out and
27:43put the
27:43tray on
27:43top of
27:44the
27:44safe.
27:45Then I
27:46heard a
27:46noise.
27:47I thought
27:47it was
27:47die.
27:48The guy
27:49was stood
27:49by the
27:50side door
27:50and he
27:51had a bag
27:52with him.
27:53He went
27:53to the
27:54shop till
27:54and took
27:55some money
27:55from the
27:55tray?
27:56Yes,
27:57then he
27:57left.
27:58And by
27:59his account,
28:00it all took
28:01place at a
28:02very, very
28:02busy time,
28:03not only for
28:03the shop,
28:03but in the
28:04village.
28:04People
28:04are waking
28:04up,
28:05people
28:05are walking
28:06dogs or
28:07whatever it
28:07is.
28:08No one
28:08has seen
28:09the person
28:09come out
28:10who's committed
28:10that murder.
28:12I was
28:13hanging
28:13washing up
28:14at about
28:158.39 in
28:16the morning.
28:17I can see
28:18the post
28:18office rear
28:19door from
28:19there.
28:20The door
28:21to the
28:21post office
28:22was closed.
28:23I saw
28:23no one
28:24or heard
28:25no one
28:25from the
28:26direction
28:26of the
28:27post office.
28:28I saw
28:28no one
28:29crossing
28:29the yard.
28:34Presumably
28:35having gone
28:35upstairs,
28:36you went
28:36into the
28:36bedroom to
28:37see your
28:37wife and
28:38assess the
28:39situation
28:39before
28:40telephoning
28:40the
28:40police.
28:42I can't
28:42remember
28:42because of
28:43this
28:43situation.
28:44I can't
28:44remember
28:45at all.
28:46Anybody
28:46listening to
28:46that evidence
28:47would think,
28:48why didn't
28:48you go across
28:49and check
28:49her?
28:50Why didn't
28:50you find
28:51out if she
28:51was dead?
28:52Why didn't
28:52you make
28:52an effort
28:53to resuscitate?
28:54There was
28:54no need
28:55to go in
28:55because you
28:56knew that
28:57you had
28:57bludgeoned
28:57her to
28:58death.
28:59That is
28:59all
28:59wrong.
29:00I
29:01dialed
29:01999.
29:04For the
29:19close of
29:20the
29:20trial,
29:22North Yorkshire
29:23Police released
29:24the details of
29:24the 999
29:25call.
29:28And that
29:29was actually
29:29released in
29:30its full,
29:30in its
29:31entirety,
29:31the recording.
29:33And
29:34that steers
29:35with you.
29:35That was
29:35a very,
29:36for me anyway,
29:37that was my
29:37obeying memory
29:38of that
29:38trial.
29:41The 999
29:42call made
29:43at precisely
29:438.37 on
29:45the morning
29:45of the 23rd
29:46of March
29:46last year
29:47from Belsonsby
29:48Post Office
29:48was the
29:49first the
29:49outside world
29:50knew of
29:51the tragedy
29:51that had
29:52befallen
29:52postmistress
29:53Diana Garbutt.
29:55A distraught
29:56Robin Garbutt
29:57is heard
29:58pleading with
29:59operators for
30:00help to
30:00save his
30:01dying wife.
30:02Are you
30:04with your
30:04wife now?
30:05Yes.
30:06How old
30:07is she?
30:08She's
30:0813,
30:10I'm
30:1034,
30:1155.
30:11She's
30:1240.
30:12She's
30:1340.
30:14Right,
30:14sir,
30:15is she
30:15conscious?
30:16No,
30:17sir,
30:17she's
30:18got a
30:18funny
30:19colour
30:19and
30:20she's
30:20not
30:21responding
30:21to
30:22anything.
30:22Okay,
30:23is she
30:23breathing?
30:24I don't
30:24think so,
30:25no.
30:25Apart
30:28from calling
30:29999,
30:30did you
30:30do
30:30anything
30:31to help
30:31Mrs Garbutt?
30:33Did you
30:33give her
30:34resuscitation?
30:36She was
30:36lying on
30:37her front.
30:38I tried
30:38to turn
30:39her over.
30:39I did
30:39try to
30:40help her.
30:42What I
30:43want you
30:43to do
30:43is to
30:44check
30:44her
30:44breathing.
30:45How do
30:46I do
30:46that?
30:46She's
30:47on her
30:49belly
30:50with her
30:50head
30:50right in
30:51the
30:51blood.
30:51Right,
30:52sir,
30:52lay her
30:53flat on
30:55her back
30:55on the
30:56ground.
30:56I can't,
30:57don't
30:57wait,
30:57she's in
30:58bed,
30:59I can't
31:00move her.
31:01Right,
31:01sir,
31:02we need
31:02to try,
31:03okay,
31:03we're
31:03going to
31:03try and
31:04help her.
31:05We had
31:06to sit
31:06and listen
31:07to him
31:08and
31:10honestly,
31:12he just,
31:14his voice
31:15and it
31:16was just
31:17awful to
31:18hear,
31:19awful.
31:19You're
31:19doing
31:20really
31:20well,
31:20sir,
31:20just
31:21trying to
31:21pull her
31:21on her
31:22back.
31:22Did
31:22you
31:22manage
31:22to
31:23get
31:23her
31:23on
31:23her
31:23back?
31:24No,
31:24she's
31:24so
31:25low,
31:25there's
31:25blood
31:26everywhere.
31:26She's
31:27terrible.
31:28Right,
31:29wait,
31:30have you
31:30managed
31:31to get
31:31her
31:31on
31:31her
31:31back?
31:32No,
31:32she's
31:32back,
31:33she's
31:33back,
31:34I've
31:34moved
31:35her,
31:35but
31:35she's
31:35back
31:36on
31:36her
31:36back,
31:36back
31:37the
31:37belly.
31:39Is
31:39there
31:39anybody
31:40nearby,
31:41a
31:41neighbour
31:41that
31:41you
31:42can
31:42go
31:42and
31:42get
31:43to
31:43help
31:43you?
31:44Paramedics
31:45found
31:51by
31:51that
31:52he
31:52could
31:52call
31:52upon
31:53to
31:53help
31:53and
31:54the
31:54woman
31:54he
31:54turned
31:55to
31:55was
31:55close
31:56friend
31:56and
31:56neighbour
31:56Pauline
31:57Dye.
32:00Hello.
32:01Hello,
32:01right,
32:01we need
32:02to get,
32:02have you
32:02got
32:02somebody
32:03there
32:03to
32:03help
32:03you?
32:06I
32:06understand,
32:07I'm
32:07going to
32:07tell you
32:07exactly
32:08what
32:08to
32:08do,
32:09okay?
32:10Between
32:10the two
32:11of you,
32:11you need
32:11to get
32:12your
32:12wife
32:12on
32:13her
32:13back,
32:13on
32:14the
32:14floor.
32:15I
32:16can't do
32:16it.
32:17You
32:17can't,
32:17you
32:18can't do
32:18that way.
32:23It provided
32:24dramatic
32:25and emotional
32:26evidence today,
32:27Robin Garbutt
32:27breaking down
32:28in the dock
32:28as his
32:29999
32:30call was
32:30played out
32:31to the
32:31court.
32:32Throughout
32:32that call,
32:33you could
32:33hear that
32:33Mr Garbutt
32:34was crying
32:35and in
32:36clear distress.
32:38Oh,
32:38no.
32:39Come out,
32:40Diana.
32:41Come on.
32:44Are you
32:45awake,
32:45Diana?
32:47They told
32:47him
32:47to try
32:49various
32:49things.
32:50I
32:50can't,
32:50you know,
32:50he physically
32:51couldn't do
32:52it.
32:52So he
32:53went and
32:53got a
32:53neighbour.
32:54The
32:55neighbour
32:55came round
32:55and
32:56assisted
32:56Robin
32:56was
32:56rolling
32:57die
32:57over
32:57and
32:57checking
32:58her.
32:59You
32:59turned
32:59her
32:59over
33:00and
33:00saw
33:00what
33:00you
33:01had
33:01done
33:01to
33:01her
33:01in
33:02the
33:02daylight.
33:03He
33:03was
33:03then
33:03asked
33:04if
33:04he
33:04would
33:04check
33:04if
33:05his
33:05wife
33:05was
33:05still
33:05breathing
33:06and
33:06he
33:06was
33:07heard
33:07saying
33:07to
33:08the
33:08late
33:08Mrs Garbutt,
33:09oh,
33:09die,
33:10you're
33:10warm.
33:11By
33:12then the
33:12paramedics
33:12were there
33:13and they
33:14confirmed
33:14that sadly
33:15she was
33:15dead.
33:17The
33:17paramedic
33:17team
33:18then arrived
33:18on the
33:19scene
33:19and because
33:19Mr Garbutt
33:20hadn't hung
33:21up the
33:21phone,
33:21his
33:22conversation
33:22with them
33:23was also
33:23recorded.
33:25How long
33:26are you
33:26doing that
33:26then?
33:27I've only
33:27just
33:28coaxed
33:29five
33:30minutes.
33:31Sit up
33:31on
33:31for
33:31five
33:32minutes.
33:33Would
33:34you like
33:34that
33:34to remove
33:35this?
33:36She
33:36what
33:37you want.
33:37Tell me,
33:42tell me,
33:42tell me.
33:47I knew
33:48it.
33:49I knew
33:50it.
33:53Forensic
33:54analysis
33:54was essentially
33:55that she
33:55died an
33:55awful lot
33:56earlier
33:56in the
33:57night
33:57and the
33:58paramedic
33:58was saying
33:59there was
33:59a bit
33:59of a
34:00discussion
34:00and I
34:01know it
34:01sounds
34:01odd
34:02where
34:03Robin
34:03was saying
34:04is she
34:04still
34:05warm
34:05or words
34:05to that
34:06effect
34:06and he
34:06was saying
34:06no,
34:07she's
34:07been
34:07dead
34:07for some
34:07time
34:08and he
34:08was
34:08contradicting
34:10that
34:10even
34:10at that
34:11stage
34:11because
34:11he
34:11would
34:11have
34:11been
34:11aware
34:12the
34:13prosecution
34:13contended
34:14that that was
34:15going to
34:15contradict
34:15his alibi.
34:32He was
34:33captured
34:33saying
34:33to a
34:34member
34:34of
34:34the
34:35ambulance
34:35team
34:36of
34:36his
34:36wife
34:37she's
34:37warm
34:38she's
34:49warm.
34:50The paramedic
34:50said she was
34:53blue.
34:54She was
34:54subject to
34:55rigor
34:55mortis.
34:56I cannot
34:57remember what
34:58the paramedic
34:58said.
34:59I held
34:59her hand.
35:00her hand.
35:01You knew
35:02her arm
35:03was stiff.
35:04Her fingers
35:05moved.
35:06Her legs
35:06moved when
35:07I tried to
35:07turn her
35:08over.
35:08I was
35:08mindful of
35:09that.
35:10He really
35:11was eviscerated
35:12in the
35:12dock in
35:12terms of
35:13his account.
35:14And I
35:14think he
35:15was trying,
35:16in my opinion,
35:17he was trying
35:17to justify
35:17an awful lot
35:18of things
35:19particularly in
35:20regard to the
35:20timescale and
35:21the time frame.
35:22That was just
35:23ludicrous
35:23really.
35:23At what
35:26time in the
35:27morning did
35:28you kill
35:28her,
35:28Mr. Garbutt?
35:30I would
35:30never hurt
35:31die.
35:32I loved
35:33my wife.
35:36She didn't
35:37love you
35:37though,
35:38did she,
35:38Mr. Garbutt?
35:39She didn't
35:40love you.
35:42I think
35:43you're very
35:43wrong.
35:44I think
35:45she loved
35:45me back.
35:53I had one
36:01uncomfortable
36:01feeling that I
36:03haven't mentioned
36:03which was
36:04during the
36:05court break.
36:07I walked
36:08over to the
36:08door of the
36:10court just to
36:11have peeped
36:11through the
36:12window to
36:13see, you
36:13know, is there
36:14any action, is
36:15there anybody
36:15coming back in
36:16through the
36:16other way?
36:18And I just
36:19looked at that
36:19through that
36:20window and in
36:21the reflection
36:22of that glass
36:23Robin was
36:25looking at
36:26me.
36:29And that
36:30was the
36:30first time
36:31that I
36:31felt, you
36:33know,
36:34uncomfortable
36:34by him.
36:39And then,
36:40you know,
36:40out of all
36:40the evidence
36:41that I'd
36:41heard,
36:43none of
36:44that had
36:44made me
36:44think that
36:45he was
36:45guilty,
36:46but he
36:47was guilty
36:47of that
36:48act of,
36:50you know,
36:51I can
36:53look at
36:53your back
36:54but I
36:54can't
36:54look at
36:55your face.
37:06Ladies and
37:07gentlemen,
37:07I have left
37:08until last
37:09possibly the
37:09most important
37:10witness,
37:11Brian Hurt.
37:13Not a
37:13friend or
37:14best mate
37:14of Mr. Garbutt,
37:16just somebody
37:16who used
37:17the shop.
37:17around 6.45
37:20I went
37:21to the
37:22paper shop.
37:23Mr. Garbutt
37:24was serving.
37:25We passed
37:25the time of
37:26day.
37:27As I
37:28turned to
37:29go,
37:29I heard
37:30a woman's
37:30voice.
37:32She said
37:32one word,
37:34Robin.
37:35He said,
37:36yes,
37:36Di.
37:37I'm 90%
37:38sure it was
37:39Di,
37:39or it was
37:40Dear.
37:41He was
37:54clear that
37:54at about
37:556.45
37:56he heard
37:57a voice
37:57saying
37:58Robin.
37:59He said
37:59it sounded
38:00like a
38:00woman's
38:01voice.
38:02And he
38:02said
38:02either
38:03yes,
38:03Di,
38:04or
38:04yes,
38:05Dear.
38:05The
38:08importance
38:09of that
38:09evidence
38:10cannot
38:11be
38:11overstated.
38:12You
38:13just
38:13have
38:13to
38:13look
38:14at
38:14the
38:14till
38:14roll
38:14to
38:15see.
38:16If
38:16this
38:16is
38:17quarter
38:17to
38:17seven,
38:18customers
38:18are
38:19coming
38:19thick
38:19and
38:19fast.
38:20Mr. Garbutt
38:21cannot
38:22possibly
38:22have run
38:23upstairs,
38:24hit
38:24Diana
38:24with
38:25an
38:25iron
38:25bar,
38:26run
38:26out
38:26and
38:27pop
38:27the
38:27bar
38:27on
38:27the
38:27wall.
38:29There
38:29is
38:29no
38:30possible
38:30opportunity.
38:33There's
38:34no doubt
38:34whatsoever
38:34that
38:35would
38:35back
38:35up
38:35Mr. Garbutt's
38:36version
38:36of
38:36events.
38:38And
38:39what's
38:39really
38:39quite
38:40difficult
38:40in the
38:41legal
38:41system
38:42is
38:42reasonable
38:42doubt.
38:43I've
38:43been in
38:44court cases
38:44before
38:44where you
38:45get
38:45people
38:45who
38:45genuinely,
38:47jurors
38:47who ask
38:48for the
38:48judge
38:48to
38:48explain
38:48what
38:49reasonable
38:49is.
38:50And
38:51it's
38:51really
38:51hard
38:51to
38:52define.
38:53You
38:53know?
38:56The
38:57jury in
38:57the
38:57case
38:58of a
38:58man
38:58accused
38:58of
38:59killing
38:59his
38:59postmistress
39:00wife
39:00has
39:00retired
39:01to
39:01consider
39:02its
39:02verdict.
39:03Robin
39:03Garbutt
39:03denies
39:04the
39:04murder
39:04of
39:04his
39:05wife
39:05Diana
39:05at
39:05their
39:06post
39:06office
39:06at
39:06Melsenby
39:07in
39:07North
39:07Yorkshire
39:08last
39:08year.
39:09Much of
39:10this boils
39:10down to
39:11one key
39:12issue for
39:12the jury
39:13to decide.
39:14That is,
39:14when exactly
39:15did Diana
39:17Garbutt die?
39:17Now,
39:18why is that
39:18so...
39:18that atmosphere
39:19in the
39:20court
39:21when you're
39:21waiting for
39:21a verdict
39:22is like
39:24something
39:24you've never
39:24experienced
39:25before.
39:27It goes
39:27quiet
39:28and then
39:30it goes
39:31quieter
39:31than
39:31quiet.
39:34If a
39:34minute's
39:35silence
39:35can feel
39:37like a
39:37long time,
39:39this feels
39:40like forever.
39:43I'd
39:43sat there
39:44and listened
39:44to it all.
39:45If I was a
39:46juror,
39:46I would
39:46have been
39:47one of
39:47the ones
39:47that said,
39:48I don't
39:48know.
39:50Because I
39:50don't think
39:50you're there
39:50to say,
39:52he didn't
39:52do it.
39:54You're there
39:55to say,
39:55I'm sure
39:56he did.
39:57And unless
39:58you can,
39:59he's not
39:59guilty.
40:05Foreman,
40:07do you,
40:07the jury,
40:08find the
40:08defendant,
40:09Robin Joseph
40:09Garbutt,
40:10guilty or
40:11not guilty
40:12on the
40:12charge of
40:13this
40:13indictment
40:13for
40:14murder?
40:16We,
40:18the jury,
40:20find the
40:20defendant,
40:21Robin Garbutt,
40:23guilty.
40:40His face
40:41was just
40:41like
40:42ashen.
40:42It was
40:42just a
40:43real funny
40:44colour.
40:46He didn't
40:47really look
40:48at me
40:49or anybody.
40:49He wasn't
40:50looking at
40:50anyone.
40:51He was
40:51just looking
40:51down.
40:53And I
40:53just wanted
40:54to be able
40:54to get
40:55to him.
40:55Because I
40:56knew that
40:57he would
40:57need us
40:58and we
40:59couldn't
41:00do that
41:00for him.
41:03I find
41:04it to be
41:04proved that
41:05the defendant
41:06was stealing
41:07cash from
41:08the post office
41:08safe.
41:10I do not
41:11doubt that
41:11in some
41:11way his
41:12fear of
41:13exposure
41:13led to
41:14the murder.
41:17I order
41:18that the
41:18defendant
41:18serves a
41:20minimum term
41:20of 20
41:21years
41:22before he
41:23is considered
41:24for release
41:25by the
41:26parole board.
41:26to see him
41:33there go
41:34down those
41:34stairs.
41:36That was
41:37just the
41:38worst thing
41:39in my life
41:40that I think
41:40I'll have
41:41ever had to
41:42see.
41:43Because I
41:44knew he
41:44hadn't done
41:44anything wrong.
41:46Then our
41:47whole world
41:48was gone,
41:49wasn't it?
41:49Our family
41:50and all that
41:50we fought for
41:51and justice
41:53had all
41:54gone.
41:56Yeah.
41:56Yeah.
42:00I can
42:01remember
42:02Sally
42:02screaming out
42:03oh no
42:04and it
42:05was just
42:06horrendous.
42:09It was
42:10like
42:10how have
42:11you come
42:12to this
42:12decision?
42:13What have
42:14you based
42:14this decision
42:15on?
42:18Because
42:19it isn't
42:19evidence.
42:21we had a
42:35meeting with
42:36counsel after
42:36Robin's
42:37conviction.
42:38I banged my
42:38hand down on
42:39the desk and
42:40stood up and
42:41said you've
42:41managed to get
42:42the most
42:43innocent man in
42:44this country
42:44found guilty
42:46on one of the
42:46worst crimes
42:47you can possibly
42:48commit.
42:50And Mr.
42:50Hill turned
42:51on and he
42:51said this
42:53isn't the
42:54end.
42:56He said
42:57because we
42:58asked for
42:59information from
43:00the post office
43:01based on
43:02information provided
43:04by the
43:04Horizon system.
43:07But the post
43:08office said
43:09that that
43:09information wasn't
43:11available when
43:12it actually
43:12was.
43:13I joined the
43:16post office in
43:171978 and
43:19then in
43:191988 my
43:21wife and I
43:21bought our
43:22own post
43:22office and
43:23we ran that
43:24branch for
43:2538 years.
43:27And all
43:27throughout that
43:28time I
43:29played a role
43:30helping and
43:31representing
43:32some post
43:32masters when
43:33they got into
43:34disputes with
43:34the post
43:35office.
43:37I've never
43:38trusted
43:39Horizon.
43:39And when
43:42they finally
43:43got the
43:44records I
43:45looked at
43:45the statements
43:46from the
43:46postal's
43:46officials and
43:47immediately I
43:48said well
43:49hang on a
43:49minute the
43:50jury haven't
43:50been given
43:50all the
43:51facts here.
43:52In my
43:52opinion there's
43:53another side
43:53to this
43:54story.
44:23I
44:27I
44:31I
44:32I
44:34I
44:34I
44:34I
44:35I
44:35I
44:35I
44:37I
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