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What does it mean to make Malaysia truly whole? Changemakers from The Native Allies explore how empowering Orang Asli leadership isn’t just about representation, it’s about belonging, identity and the future we share as a nation.
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00:00Hello and welcome to Izabak Youth. I'm your host, Fahna Sheh. Now, when we talk about leadership in
00:12Malaysia, we often look at the glass towers of KL or the parliament halls. But today we're looking
00:17somewhere else, into the heart of our own soil. For decades, the orang asli have been a part of
00:23our Malaysian fabric, yet their voices are often sidelined in the national conversation about our
00:29future. Today, we are joined by two people who are changing that narrative. We have Farah, the
00:34visionary behind Native Allies, a fellowship dedicated to empowering orang asli changemakers.
00:39And we also have Sabariah, a Native Allies Fellow, who is redefining what it takes or what it means to
00:46lead from within their community. Thank you so much for joining us, both of you. It's a pleasure to have you guys here.
00:51Right. Let's talk about Native Allies first before we dive deep into, you know, some of the programs
00:58and some of the issues that we have surrounding this topic. We rarely have programs like this,
01:04I feel. So what was the specific light bulb moment that lead to the creation of Native Allies? And tell
01:11me a little bit more about the program itself, Farah. Okay, sure. I think we'll start off by telling you a
01:16little bit about the program. So it's the Native Fellowship. It is essentially an Indigenous-led program,
01:22where it's a fellowship program for Indigenous leaders, more specifically for the orang asli, people like
01:28Mia. So to answer your question on the light bulb moment, I don't think there was a specific
01:34dramatic moment that led to the creation of Native Allies or led to the creation of the fellowship.
01:40But it was more of a series of growing discomforts or a series of observations that we noticed through
01:47our work with the orang asli. So that meant, you know, through, because we work with them on livelihood
01:52creation projects, and we noticed a key observation was that a lot of the times, the orang asli are,
02:00any community projects that are centered around the orang asli are led by non-orang asli people or
02:05non-orang asli organizations like NGO and an NGO, for example. And while often this is well-intentioned,
02:12but it can lead to this disempowering narrative that the orang asli are merely beneficiaries,
02:18or people who, you know, need help. Right. And that's not necessarily true, because the orang asli
02:25actually have a lot of capabilities, but they just lack that platform and that the right resources.
02:30So we do see that the orang asli they are spoken about, they are planned for, they are represented by,
02:37but very rarely are they centered to the decision making. And that's what the Native Fellowship aims to
02:45do, right? It sets out to bridge that gap, to provide the orang asli leaders, people like Mia,
02:52with the right network, the right opportunities, the right platform, and it brings them together in a safe
02:57space where they can, by themselves, discuss what leadership is like for them, what success means
03:04for them, and how they want a vision for the orang asli to be in Malaysia. So that's essentially a
03:10little bit about it. And it's also about bridging the allies, so the non-Indigenous people, so people
03:15like me, what is my role in it? So that's where we also come into the program, we discuss with our
03:21fellows, with the orang asli fellows, how we can play a better role in supporting them in their larger
03:27goal in life. Right. So Maria, I understand you are the first cohort of this program. Do you mind
03:33sharing a little bit about your experience and do you know how it went during the whole program?
03:39I understand it's a six-month program, so do you mind sharing a little bit? Yeah, of course. Six-month program
03:46with thank you for the Native that menerima memberi peluang kepada saya lah untuk join program ni. So first cohort
03:55kita ada 12 orang, include saya lah. Jadi daripada pelbagai latabrakang, pelbagai experience lah yang mereka
04:04ada. Mereka juga tidak kurang hebat lah. Ada yang pastor daripada segi keagamaan, ada yang very
04:12passion dengan mereka punya culture untuk bawa pergi lebih jauh, ada yang membuat dokumentation
04:18tentang hal-hal orang asli. So selama enam bulan dengan mereka dalam program ni dia memberi saya
04:27banyak peluang untuk melihat sebenarnya di mana kami sebagai pemimpin orang asli yang boleh
04:36menyumbang ke arah yang jauh lebih berimpak dan juga secara menyeluruh kepada mereka. So selain tu juga,
04:46kami banyak berkongsi pengalaman masing-masing di mana kita saling belajar antara satu sama lain lah.
04:57Saya rasa ini satu platform yang baru untuk saya sebab selama enam bulan dengan dua belas orang,
05:05I mean sebelas orang yang berbeza dan sometimes kita ada, kita punya point of view, different. So a lot
05:13of learning and I, saya sangat enjoy enam bulan ni. Saya rasa dia memberi saya something yang different
05:19dalam diri saya yang saya rasa ia patut dikongsikan dengan OAU yang lain juga.
05:27Do you mind sharing a little bit about the activities or the skills that you've learned
05:31during the program?
05:33Okay, so antara activity yang kami buat tu ialah kami diberi peluang untuk memikirkan
05:44satu project lah untuk diri masing-masing dan daripada project tu kita juga mendapat sokongan
05:50daripada alternatif yang mana memang untuk saya sendiri saya rasa pada awalnya ia sangat idea yang
05:59sangat sama lah kerana saya yakin setiap orang juga ada idea mereka sendiri.
06:04tapi through meeting by meeting or pertemuan dengan demi pertemuan kita ada banyak perbincangan
06:13dan kita ada cara yang denative share dengan kita macam mana untuk melihat ataupun method
06:23yang kita gunakan untuk melihat ini lebih berkesan. So aktiviti ni dia berterusan lah sebab dia ada
06:31apa dia punya aliran ataupun dia punya follow up dia daripada satu perjumpaan ke satu perjumpaan.
06:40Jadi saya boleh katakan dia sangat bersinambungan dan you can feel it really related
06:46for the activity for this six month.
06:49So it's not just like a one stop kind of one activity, one of activity.
06:54It's there's follow up. There's a lot of comprehensive planning.
06:57There's a lot of discussions. There's a lot of projects that involve.
07:00So if I could add a little bit also to what Mia was saying, the idea behind the fellowship
07:06is to simply introduce the orang asli leaders to new ways of thinking and different leadership frameworks.
07:12Nothing is imposed onto them. It's just to kind of give them a creative value based thought framework.
07:19So this is their space to kind of reflect on, you know, who am I as a leader?
07:23What do I value? And then at the same time, give them exposure to different communities.
07:28Like we visited a community in Sabah to see how they do things, what you can replicate,
07:33what you like, what you don't like. So this is essentially the space for that.
07:37And it's built out carefully across the six months. So you have time to build relationships with each other
07:42and to understand each other and build that sense of fellowship.
07:47I think that's a very nice way to put it because it's about communities.
07:52It's about, you know, taking best practices like you mentioned.
07:56And it's about taking, you know, your own sense of belonging and making sure that you carry that along
08:03when it comes to making decisions, when it comes to, you know, taking leadership roles.
08:07So I think it's very impressive. So well done.
08:12Right. Let's talk a little bit about the nitty gritty things, which is, you know, the fellowship talks about dismantling barriers, right?
08:19So beyond, let's say, financial ones, for example, because we know that's kind of like the big issue there.
08:26What are the biggest challenges or systemic barriers do you think orang asli face when trying to step into leadership role?
08:35Maybe we can start with Sabaria?
08:37Ya. Untuk saya sendiri, apabila saya melangkah ke arah kepimpinan, saya mula sedar ada banyak cabaran.
08:47So ada dua cabaran yang saya boleh share, iaitu satu internally and satu lagi externally.
08:54Internally itu lebih kepada sistem lah. Internally itu lebih kepada diri sendiri.
08:58So untuk saya, secara internally dia more kepada jangkaan dan juga tekanan dalaman.
09:06Saya rasa ini, ini juga apa yang mungkin saya dan juga pemimpin OA lain rasa,
09:14di mana kita apabila kita menjadi pemimpin, kita memegang banyak jangkaan daripada komuniti,
09:21daripada keluarga, daripada parti-parti yang lain tentang kita di mana kita nak bawa suara keseluruhan untuk komuniti orang asli.
09:31Di mana kita perlu membuat keputusan yang tepat, kita kena buat action yang cepat.
09:37Dan tekanan dalaman itu, kita rasa macam kalau saya gagal membantu masyarakat saya, saya rasa tidak akan saya tidak gemat.
09:51Ya, dan perasaan-perasaan dan jangkaan ini, dia buat kita rasa stress dan burn out.
09:59Dan akhirnya kita hesitate untuk memimpin.
10:03Sementara yang external pula, daripada sistem pula, saya boleh kongsikan daripada legal dan juga hak tanah orang asli.
10:14So, sebagai pemimpin, kita perlu ada security of tempat yang kita tinggal, kita ada security of suara yang perlu didengar
10:26dan kita juga perlu ada identity yang terpelihara. Itu sepatutnya daripada seorang pemimpin.
10:33Tapi, by facing land right issue ataupun kita ada menghadapi sangat tidak jelas legal issue yang berlaku di kalangan orang asli,
10:46iaitu saya rasa kalau kita, kita pun tahu yang hal ewan orang asli berada di government kerajaan persekutuan.
10:58Sementara tanah pula di bawah kerajaan negeri.
11:01So, dua ini sangat bercanggah dan membuatkan kami komuniti, tanah itu berada dalam keadaan yang tidak clear jelas.
11:12So, ini membuatkan pemimpin berada dalam reaction mode untuk berjuang, untuk survive.
11:19Daripada mereka terus meningkatkan kepimpinan diri mereka untuk jangka masa yang panjang.
11:25So, itu antara cabaran yang...
11:27So, it seems like there's a lot of uncertainty when it comes to policies and laws in government
11:32that makes leadership within the community harder, right?
11:37Farah, with regards to your role in championing this,
11:41what has been the challenge or the systemic barriers that you have to face?
11:45So, I think similar to what Mia said,
11:48what I know is based on what the orang asli that I work with share.
11:52And usually, these things, they are rarely ever about capability,
11:57but they are systemic like you mentioned.
11:59I think number one is perception, right?
12:02So, when we talk about leadership,
12:04the concept of leadership is still imagined in a very urban way,
12:07in a very corporate way, political way.
12:10But it's, you know, and that diminishes how leadership in the orang asli way is.
12:16Because leadership in the indigenous way oftentimes is the opposite of that.
12:20It is community-centred.
12:21It is about stewardship.
12:22It is about consensus.
12:24So, there's a little bit of issue there.
12:26And I think for the youth as well, and not just the youth,
12:29I think like Mia mentioned everyone,
12:31oftentimes when an orang asli steps forward in a leadership position,
12:34they are viewed as representing the entire community.
12:37And without the right support, that can be very overwhelming sometimes.
12:42And, you know, wrong decisions can be made because of that.
12:45Yeah.
12:46Right.
12:47So, what I'm getting is there's no true one definition when it comes to leadership,
12:50especially when we talk about orang asli,
12:52as well as, I guess, not enough support when it comes to how we want to propel this,
12:58either youth leaders or, you know, those in the community to basically take on this role.
13:03Right?
13:04Yeah.
13:05Okay.
13:06So, we've discussed some of the challenges here.
13:07We want to get to the solutions bit as well,
13:09and talk a little bit more about the program as well.
13:11But I think we have to go for a quick break first.
13:29Hello and welcome back to It's For Youth.
13:30I'm Farnashe.
13:31And today, I'm joined by two changemakers, Farah and Sabaria.
13:36We are talking about Native Allies, a fellowship dedicated to empowering
13:40the orang asli community to take on leadership role.
13:42We've discussed some of the challenges facing the community in the first half of the show.
13:47Right.
13:48We want to talk a little bit about the, I guess, the broader implications or the broader solutions
13:55when it comes to all this, right?
13:57Let's first talk about, you know, empowering the orang asli youth.
14:01Specifically, how does it contribute to the Malaysia Madani or the national identity?
14:05And why should youth in KL or in urban communities care about the success of, you know, this kind of program?
14:13Maybe, Farah, we can start with you.
14:15Yeah, sure.
14:16So, you mentioned, you know, the Malaysia Madani.
14:20So, Madani is all about, from my understanding, shared prosperity, dignity.
14:25And all of those values are very difficult to achieve when we have communities that are marginalized.
14:30So, what's happening now is that we want to empower the youth and make more, not just the youth, sorry,
14:38and make more space for them.
14:40So, the question is about how can we make more space for the orang asli meaningfully, right?
14:47And that can happen at many layers.
14:48So, it can happen in an individual layer where it's just about, you know, you asking yourselves,
14:53how can I be more curious, how can I be more involved?
14:56And we spoke to the fellows as well in the Native Fellowship.
15:00And they also shared that's something that they would appreciate from allies,
15:03you know, people that walk alongside them.
15:05Because at the end of the day, we know that the orang asli do represent a very small percentage in Malaysia.
15:10So, they can't be in this journey alone.
15:13They need allies.
15:14So, allies are people that might not be orang asli, people like me, right?
15:18How can we complement them in their journey?
15:20And why? Why should we?
15:21Because we believe, at least at Native Allies,
15:24we believe that a better Malaysia is a Malaysia that includes all its communities.
15:29And an orang asli is a very important part of building that nation, right?
15:35Yeah.
15:36Sabarya, what's your take on this?
15:38Yeah, I also agree with what Farah said.
15:42Malaysia mana ni, dia ada nilai-nilai yang bermakna disebalik dia.
15:47Yang mana mereka boleh contribute kepada pelbagai sektor.
15:50Ada yang sangat pakar dalam pertunang.
15:53pertunang.
15:56Sorry, pertunang.
15:57Ah, sorry.
15:58Pertunang.
15:59Pertunang.
16:00Pertunang.
16:01Ah, sorry.
16:02Pertunang.
16:03Pertunang.
16:04Ah, sorry.
16:05Pertunang.
16:06Ah, sorry.
16:07Pertunang.
16:08Ah, sorry.
16:09Pertunang.
16:10Ah, sorry.
16:11Pertunang.
16:12Ah, dan, ah, kita pun sangat mengenali yang orang asli.
16:13Memang mereka duduk di dalam hutan.
16:14Memang mereka duduk di dalam hutan, menjaga hutan.
16:16Jadi, ah, itu adalah knowledge-knowledge yang komuniti orang asli boleh contribute ke Malaysia, ke membina Malaysia.
16:28Dan menjawab soalan kenapa pemuda di bandar atau di KL perlu peduli tentang apa yang berlaku kepada orang asli.
16:49So, ah, dengan sokongan ataupun kepedulian daripada belia ataupun pemuda daripada KL kepada orang asli, ini membantu mereka sebenarnya contribute kepada dua bahagian.
17:05Bahagian pertama, ah, dengan sokongan ini mereka boleh stay di tempat yang mereka mahu, di tempat asal mereka.
17:13Dan mereka boleh terus contribute untuk menjaga alam dengan knowledge yang mereka ada.
17:18Sementara, mereka pemuda ataupun sokongan daripada luar juga boleh contribute ke arah yang satu lagi iaitu
17:25orang asli juga boleh menjadi sebahagian daripada pembangunan Malaysia di mana mereka boleh menjadi doktor,
17:33mereka juga boleh menjadi pencara, mereka juga boleh menjadi ahli parlimen yang boleh mengubal undang untuk masyarakat mereka sendiri.
17:41Jadi, membina satu Malaysia dengan, seperti yang Farah juga mention, dengan meninggalkan komuniti yang marginalised di belakang,
17:51itu bukan satu kemajuan yang jujur dan juga bermoral.
17:58I mean, we just finished our ASEAN chairmanship recently, and I think one of the main pillars is also inclusivity.
18:05And I think that is what we have to take on and lead by example to include, like you mentioned,
18:11you know, every sector of the society here in Malaysia.
18:14And I think for youths or rather, you know, anyone who are not orang asli to be allies rather than just, you know,
18:22a distant supporter or, you know, contribute to charities.
18:26But to really understand and to really, you know, look through like how we can help orang asli communities to, like you said, take on leadership role,
18:37build themselves up and lead how they want to be led, right?
18:42Right, okay.
18:43Obviously, you know, I think the Native Allies, one of their mission is to make Malaysia whole.
18:50So, and this is part of what we're saying as well, you know, inclusivity and making sure that everyone is included.
18:55So, what does a whole Malaysia looks like to you?
18:59So, does it mean more representation in parliament?
19:03Does it mean, you know, something a bit more local?
19:06Does it mean policy changes?
19:09Maybe, Zabaria, we can start with you.
19:11Okay.
19:12Banyak penglibatan orang asli di parliament itu, ya betul,
19:18tapi bukan itu sahaja.
19:20Bukan itu sahaja.
19:21Kalau ada ramai di parliament tapi tak ada kuasa, dia akan jadi...
19:26Betul, jadi token sahaja.
19:27Symbolik sahajalah.
19:30Tapi, saya rasa sistem atau polisi ini dibina oleh manusia.
19:35Ia macam, manusia ini adalah, saya pakai metafor lah, manusia ini ialah cawan dan sistem itu ialah air yang masuk ke dalam cawan.
19:44Tapi, so, sistem ini digunapakai juga untuk pelbagai kaum di Malaysia kan?
19:50Macam, kepada Chinese, kepada Indian, kepada Malay.
19:53Kenapa tidak kepada orang asli?
19:55So, macam, saya bagi contoh yang spesifik,
19:59macam dalam kalender Malaysia.
20:01Kalau cakap pasal, the whole means, orang asli dilihat.
20:06So, dalam kalender Malaysia, kita ada cuti,
20:08tahun baru China.
20:11Kita ada cuti tai pusam, gawai, hari lagi puasa.
20:16Tapi, kenapa tak ada cuti hari orang asal?
20:18Dekat sini dah jelas nampak yang orang asli tidak nampak lah di sana.
20:23Dan, sistem itu perlu dibina daripada struktur hidup sesuatu masyarakat itu sendiri.
20:29Macam saya kata tadi, takkan kita nak bina satu sistem,
20:32and then put in orang asli inside.
20:34Kita dengar pun dah tak selesa.
20:37Apabila lagi kita mengharungi ataupun menghadapi sistem itu sendiri.
20:42Farah, apa about you?
20:44Ya, I think similar with what Mia shared, right?
20:46There are many levels to it.
20:48So, earlier I mentioned a few levels.
20:50So, at the individual level, you want to focus on what you can do on a small scale, right?
20:57I can start off by maybe getting to know a community, right?
21:00In Malay, they are the saying,
21:01tak kenal maka tak cinta, right?
21:03You don't love what you don't know.
21:04So, it's very hard for you to be an ally when you don't even know.
21:07And a lot of Malaysian communities actually haven't even had the opportunity
21:11to even meet an orang asli individual.
21:13So, it's about being curious, getting out there.
21:15You can start by volunteering, reading up, breaking down some stigmas.
21:19You currently have about them.
21:21And then, of course, on a societal level as well.
21:24Like, what can you do as a company or, you know, as a society
21:28by avoiding tokenism, right?
21:30By avoiding just checking a CSR tick box, right?
21:35So, what can you do?
21:36So, exploring a little bit more about that as well.
21:38And then, of course, on a government level and a policy level,
21:41it's about meaningfully making space for the orang asli,
21:44meaningfully including them in the decision-making.
21:47So, again, instead of just having them as a checkbox consulting party,
21:51maybe make them as the decision-makers, not just one or two,
21:54but if it's an act regarding them, a larger amount, right?
21:58So that they actually are not just consulted, but they're making the decision.
22:01So, these are some of the things that we can do, that communities and companies can do.
22:07I personally, I view allyship on a spectrum.
22:10So, let's say we have a scale and at the start we have exclusion.
22:16So, that's when we completely don't even include the orang asli in our thoughts.
22:20We don't know about them.
22:21They're completely off our radar.
22:23And then you move one step forward and then we have extraction,
22:26where you know them, but your relationship with them is I take.
22:29I take your land for my agriculture, for example.
22:34And then you move on into the middle and that's tokenism.
22:37So, it's like you want to work with the orang asli and the intention is good,
22:41but it falls into the tokenism because you're doing it as a one-off
22:44or it's not sustainable.
22:45And then you move to the end of the spectrum,
22:47which where Native allies, what we want to do,
22:50and that's on solidarity and it's on being a reciprocal ally.
22:54So, it's more than just charity, which is transactional,
22:57but it's about, you know, a long-term commitment.
23:00It demands accountability.
23:02It demands a bit of humility.
23:05It demands making room for people and sometimes knowing when to step back as well.
23:09And I think on a broader spectrum as well, you know, it's about working together as well
23:14to build, you know, the Malaysia that we want to live in, right?
23:18I think when we talk about, you know, what does a whole Malaysia look like?
23:22I think to me personally, it looks like, you know, everyone is on the table.
23:27So, and everyone is working together and talking together and discussing ways to make Malaysia better.
23:32And, you know, at Native allies and with fellows like Sabaria, you know, taking leadership role, for example,
23:39this is what we're aiming to do to make Malaysia better as a whole, right?
23:43Exactly, yeah.
23:44Right, awesome.
23:45We only have time for a few more questions.
23:47So, let's start with, you know, a bit of looking forward into the future.
23:52So, ten years from now, let's say.
23:54When the next generation of orang asli youth looks at your journey, Sabaria,
23:58what is the one message you hope your leadership leaves behind?
24:02What's the one message you hope your leadership leaves behind?
24:03You know, what is the one message you hope your leadership leaves behind?
24:04Biar cakap tentang diri saya, apa yang mesej saya nak sampaikan ialah,
24:05di mana kita mula, itu tidak menentukan sejauh mana kepimpinan kita tak boleh pergi.
24:14Maksud saya di sini ialah, saya dan juga mungkin kebanyakan pemimpin-pemimpin orang asli yang lain,
24:21kita mula dengan very basic lifestyle.
24:24Kita stay di pendalaman, di kampung dengan apa yang kita ada.
24:28Tapi, basic ini tidak menentukan bahawa leadership kita juga berada di level basic.
24:33Kita dengan macam, kita dapat support daripada the native ataupun dengan pelbagai cara yang lain.
24:42Itu juga boleh menentukan sejauh mana kita boleh pergi untuk menerus memimpin komuniti kita.
24:48Dan satu lagi, saya sangat berharap orang asli melihat yang kepimpinan itu bukan berada di tempat yang selesa.
24:59Seperti saya, saya bermula dengan kerja-kerja grassroot dan juga terlibat dengan movement,
25:12so dari sana saya menghadapi banyak rasa sakit.
25:17Tapi daripada sakit ini membuatkan kepimpinan itu pergi lebih jauh.
25:24Dan ini sebab saya ingat saya daripada mana dan siapa yang bertinggal lagi di belakang.
25:31So, saya harap mesej ini sampai kepada pemuda orang asli.
25:35I mean, it's about getting out of your comfort zone, I guess, for those in the community.
25:40And also for those outside the community to get out of their comfort zone as well,
25:44to learn more about how they can help, I feel.
25:47I think it goes both ways. Amazing.
25:50Farah, if someone is watching here and wants to move from being a bystander to an ally,
25:57a genuine ally, where do they start?
26:00So, this is your call to action here.
26:02If you'd like to talk to the people on how we can help our orang asli communities here in Malaysia.
26:08Okay, sure. So, I think number one, it starts with self-reflection.
26:13So, ask yourself, you know, really, how do you recognise the orang asli?
26:16Do you recognise them as, you know, people that are just there for a token?
26:23Or are they someone who you really believe that they have social economic mobility?
26:28They really have knowledge systems that should be incorporated in policies?
26:33So, ask yourself that. That's where it starts.
26:35And then for Native allies, a simple way that you can get started is actually we have a pledge.
26:40And this pledge is co-created with the orang asli during our fellowship.
26:44And it's for non-orang asli people to just show their solidarity with the orang asli,
26:48to recognise that they have their own way of self-determination and they have their own, you know, self-respect.
26:56So, it's a pledge that we created for awareness.
26:59So, you can go on our website and sign that pledge. That's number one.
27:03Number two, if you're a bigger partner and you're looking to support our fellowship programme,
27:07we are open to funders, we are open to partners, whether you want to, for example, give the fellows some form of resource.
27:14So, some of our fellows might need for their projects media help, help with, you know, marketing, for example.
27:22This would be the platform to reach out.
27:24And lastly, if you work with an orang asli individual or you are an orang asli individual,
27:29do feel free to sign up as well to our second year of the Native Fellowship.
27:33It's an amazing programme.
27:35And hopefully, we want to expand it this year.
27:37So, you can, you know, go onto our website and, and wait till, sorry, you can go on our website
27:46and then in March, applications will open.
27:48Right. Okay. There you have it.
27:50All the information would be at your website, nativeallies.my, right?
27:55Yes.
27:56Right. Okay.
27:57Thank you so much to the both of you for sharing your insights, you know, for enlightening all of us
28:03on, you know, what, what, what should matter now, you know?
28:07I think this kind of discussions rarely takes place.
28:10So, it's important that we have them and it's important that we keep having them.
28:14Yeah. Agreed.
28:15Right. So, obviously, what we've learned today is that empowering orang asli,
28:19it's not just about helping a marginalized group, but it's about completing a Malaysian identity
28:24and making Malaysia whole.
28:26So, thank you so much, Savaria and Farah, for your time.
28:29That's all the time we have. Huge thank you to both of them.
28:32And for sharing your journey as well.
28:34That's all from me. I'm Fahina Shay. Thank you for watching.
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