- 2 days ago
Dr. Lee Davenport speaks with HousingWire's Zeb Lowe about her passion for fair and equitable housing along with easy steps for professionals to get involved and take action.
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00:00Welcome back to our second episode of Contributor Conversations.
00:09HousingWire's contributor platform is one of the best places in the industry
00:12for housing professionals, visionaries, and thought leaders to share insights,
00:17analysis, and practical advice. This series gives our contributors space to circle back
00:22and go deeper on their ideas and to respond directly to feedback and questions from you,
00:26our audience. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Lee Davenport, a real estate broker, coach,
00:32and fair housing advocate who has built her career at the intersection of coaching
00:36and fair and equitable housing. Dr. Lee writes and trains extensively on race,
00:41fairness, and real estate, helping housing professionals across brokerage, lending,
00:46appraisals, and leadership turn fair housing from theory into a daily practice. In this episode,
00:51we're going to dig into what equitable housing really looks like on the ground,
00:54where our industry's biggest blind spots still are, and how individual professionals can grow
01:00their business while actively advancing fair and accessible housing. Dr. Davenport, thank you for
01:05joining me. Thank you for having me, Zeb. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, I'm very, very excited about
01:12this conversation. You and I have known each other through email for about, I don't know, a year and
01:15a half, two years. You were one of the first op-eds that I published whenever I came here, but this is
01:20our first time meeting face-to-face or screen-to-screen, rather. Right. I do feel like we are old
01:26friends at this point, but yes, to actually have eyes on you is great. It's great. Well, again,
01:32I very much appreciate you taking the time. You're ready to dive in? Let's do it. So you've built a
01:38career at the intersection of both coaching and fair housing, and I'm curious, and the feedback that
01:44I received from much of our readers is they want to know where or what first lit that fire around
01:51fair and equitable housing for you, and was there a moment when it stopped being, I guess,
01:56when it stopped being interesting and became like a non-negotiable for you? That is so good and so
02:01interesting. So long story short, I grew up in a real estate family, and when I say that, I mean from
02:10this, I always call my parents mom and pop investors because they're literally my mom and pop
02:16investors. So I am an only child, which I always say, unfortunately, because that meant when tenants
02:24trashed a place, I was the cleanup crew. If the grass needs to be cut, I was the lawn care company.
02:32So I started putting up, you know, blinds, everything, anything. I was the crew. So I didn't
02:39have any siblings to share the wealth with. And I would say, even as a kid, I started to notice
02:48things. You know, as a kid, you don't quite understand why certain people aren't allowed
02:55in certain areas or why even, for example, a area may not be as welcoming to children coming to live
03:06in the area, why it's hard for someone in a wheelchair to have access to a community, an area.
03:16It's so many things. And so as a kid, it always piqued my interest. And I know my parents have always
03:22tried to do things fair, but that didn't mean that it was necessarily easy, particularly when it comes
03:30to the cost of financing. So again, long story short, I grew up in real estate and I always wondered why
03:38not everyone had the same access and opportunity for a myriad of reasons. So that was my passion and
03:46my starting place. And then as an adult, even though, again, I was kind of, I won't say afraid
03:55to get into real estate, but I didn't want to do it just because again, I grew up doing some of more
04:02of the grunt work for my parents and they paid me. But as an adult, I realized, oh, now I get it. I see
04:10how lucrative it can be once I started to actually see the checks and the money and everything. But
04:16as an adult, again, just starting to work with families on the sales side, not just on property
04:24management and from a rental standpoint, but then even on the sales side here in Metro Atlanta,
04:29which is where I live, I started to again, notice that there were various reasons why not everyone
04:37had access and opportunities. So me being a little bit of a busy body and a little nosy made me kind of
04:47cry into, well, what's going on? How can we make this more equitable for everyone? And that started
04:55my long descent into maybe a little of madness, but fair housing and, and as much as we can possibly do
05:05to make it more equitable. Okay. So you describe yourself as a fair housing equalizer. And, you know,
05:10when you write and teach on race and fairness and real estate across, you do it across a lot of
05:16platforms, how do you define, how do you define it in a day-to-day practice? And why does that matter
05:24beyond avoiding violations? Because it's been, from my experience, I've been in the industry for
05:2915, 16 years now that, but some people think of fair housing more of like a compliance box to check,
05:38even though that's not an actual compliance box, but metaphorically. So how do you define this in
05:43the day-to-day practice? That's so good. And I don't, having been on the sales side, the management
05:50side, the property management side, the investor side, I don't fault people when we put it in that
05:58check box category, because it is a lot to manage. I know a lot of people are solopreneurs in real
06:06estate. Some people have teams so they can delegate things, but so many of us, we have to wear all
06:12these hats and it gets overwhelming. So you do, unfortunately, some parts of your business
06:20can become check boxes. But what I always like to encourage is that more than compliance is important.
06:31I don't want to underestimate that, but I think more than anything, we're in a people business. I
06:36know all of us, we get that. It is so important for people to know, like, and trust us. That's a
06:43typical business moniker, the know, like, and trust. And to do that, it is so vital for many of us. We want
06:52to be a family's, you know, real estate provider for their life. We, you know, some of us even put that
06:59in our tagline, but for that to happen and for people to sing our praises and be willing to refer
07:06us to their friends, family, neighborhoods, and coworkers, there has to be this baseline understanding
07:13of, hey, this isn't for you as the professional, whether it's mortgage, whether you're in sales,
07:20property management, this isn't just a transaction. You don't just see me as a compliance check. You don't
07:26just see me as a number. You don't see me as a paycheck. You see me as this may be the biggest
07:33transaction of my life, which is scary. You see that this is going to affect me, my children,
07:41maybe my parents, if they're living with us, right? So you see this beyond a transaction, which it is,
07:50but it's so much more than that. And for me, that means we also recognize that the fairness,
07:57the equity, the opportunity, the access that's required is also now a component. So again,
08:04we're not isolated, even though it's hard. Again, I don't want to minimize that we juggle a lot,
08:10but it is still so vital for us to actually remember that these are people, that this is their home.
08:16This is where, whether people are single, whether they're raising families, no matter what,
08:21this is still where they want to be able to lay their head down at night and have peace and safety.
08:28So the long story short is I like for us to, yes, acknowledge that this is a career we do have
08:38regulations to follow, but more importantly, just like us, this person that we're working with,
08:44this is for many of us, again, this is tied into our livelihood. This is could extend our lifetime,
08:53right? So based off of where we live, the schools, we have access to the stores and grocery stores and
09:00all of those things that are in the community. So it's so much bigger is my point.
09:04Yeah. Well, so where do you see right now, the biggest gaps or blind spots and how real estate and
09:10housing professionals show up, let's say in fair housing, and that can be, you can pick anyone,
09:15it can be agents or a lender or even, you know, leadership at large, what's the biggest gap or
09:20blind spot? You know, I think one of the biggest things that would probably help our industry as a
09:29whole, again, including appraisers, lenders, real estate agents, sales agents is to recognize that
09:39although we, like me and my business, I may never cross these lines. It doesn't mean it's not
09:47happening. I feel like that may be one of the biggest points that when I'm teaching classes or
09:53we're doing trainings and webinars, a lot of times I'm preaching to the choir, you know,
09:58the people that I'm talking to or that are reading articles, they get it. They're like,
10:03yeah, I would never do this. It almost makes me think of, I'm going to date myself here. For those
10:07of us that were, I would probably say at least teenagers or maybe even children in the 1980s,
10:15you know, there were the commercials of, you know, where they crack the egg and they're like,
10:19this is your brain and this is your brain on drugs. And oftentimes they, that it became a joke
10:25for many comedians because it's like people who aren't going to probably ever have this issue.
10:32They're the ones watching this, but the people who kind of quote need it, they don't see those
10:37commercials. They're not seeing the dare t-shirts. So I feel kind of the same way, but what that means
10:44is that because our listeners, our readers are the people that get it. It almost means we've kind
10:50of got to be the evangelists to the other people that are in our office, are in our sphere, maybe
10:57not our office. I know our offices are great. So maybe not our offices, but maybe at conferences,
11:03maybe someone on the other side of the transaction. This is where I think for many of us,
11:10it's not an issue of, we don't know what to do, nor that we're not trying. It's just that how do we
11:18be positive influences without starting a fight? Not that this topic will cause people to fight,
11:28but just in general. You work closely with organizations on fair housing, DEI, and I've seen
11:35this industry. I mean, they'll quickly adopt things that are trendy and buzzwordy, right? And then grow
11:45tired of them or become overwhelmed whenever they actually try to implement some sort of change,
11:52systemic change. So what mindsets or habits have you seen that really move the needle inside team
12:00in companies when it comes to DEI and fair housing practices and policies and philosophies?
12:09So it's not just a buzzword. It's not something that they assume and then like, oh crap, if we're
12:15going to really implement this, then we might have to change a few things. And they kind of toss it
12:19aside. Great in theory, but not going to do it in practice. What habits move that needle?
12:24Yeah. I love that. And one of the books that I'm revisiting right now, I am a nerd. So I try to
12:31reread some books. One of my favorites that I'm revisiting is Atomic Habit. So I love that you
12:37pulled out that word habit because I do think, and I'm a gym rat. I was a runner in school. And
12:44so, you know, it does take instead of, again, because like I said, I recognize so many of us have so many
12:53hats. So the big picture can be overwhelming at times. So it does come down to what are the little
12:59things I can do day by day. And then when you look back, you're like, oh, wow, we really did
13:05accomplish a lot. So one of the things that I love, and I've gotten a chance to do this with some of the
13:11realtor associations, the state-based associations, I love during our award season, which is right now,
13:19this is that time of year, the first of the year, first quarter, whether it's from the Oscars to,
13:25again, our companies, we're giving out awards. I love that when we can, instead of always making
13:31it compliance, you're getting your hand hit because you did something wrong. Let's talk about who's doing
13:38the right things. Maybe this person has gone out of their way, again, to make sure someone who
13:45maybe needs wheelchair access. They've done all of these things to ensure that they're working with
13:53various partners that can help this person have access and opportunity. So awards, that's one of
14:02my first things that I feel like so many companies, teams, as well as associations can do. Again, whether
14:10it's mortgage, whether it's appraisers, whether it's sales agents, it's something that can get
14:16people, I always call it, I know it's typically called the carrot and stick. I call it carrot cake.
14:24I don't like carrots, but carrot cake. So it's that positive incentive to create awards. I would say
14:31that would be one of the easiest, smallest things that we could do annually and get people excited about
14:37fair housing. Okay. Well, I've got a follow-up question that's similar in nature, but kind of
14:42from a bottom up, right? That's kind of from the top, from like leadership at the branch level or at
14:48an office level, top down. But for an individual that's listening to this, it could be an agent,
14:55a loan originator, whomever, who cares about these issues, but they don't really know how to start.
15:02What, I don't know, again, what or two concrete actions could they take this quarter, you're
15:09talking about Q1, to make their piece or where they fit into the housing ecosystem more fair and
15:15more accessible? I love that. So one of the other things that I've actually been challenging people
15:21to do this year for Q1 is to, if you don't know the history of the area that you're servicing,
15:31learn about it. So what that means is take a look. There are different free websites that can tell you
15:38was this community redlined or was this an area where neighborhoods, communities were destroyed in
15:47order to build the freeway system or to build roads? Or was this even an area where, well, there's so
15:56many things. Was this an area where professionals, so again, maybe this, maybe you're, again, a part of,
16:07it could be an association. Again, as the individual, what was the history in this area? Were professionals
16:13welcomed from all different backgrounds, you know? So there are some places where women for a long time
16:20couldn't get involved in certain things. So to look at those things first. So first, identify what was
16:26the history of the area that I'm servicing? And then two, based off of that history. So you may learn
16:34that there were some demographics that were maybe historically excluded, or again, maybe a whole community
16:41was demolished. Based off of that, oftentimes there are existing organizations that are trying to
16:53remedy some of those issues. So now you get an opportunity to, again, you're still connecting
16:59with the community, which is great. Going back to what I mentioned about getting people to know,
17:07like, and trust us, all of us, at any point in time, we should be connecting with the community.
17:13So this gives us a chance to connect with some of the organizations that may be trying to remedy
17:18some of the issues that were specific to real estate, to mortgages, and appraisals, and so forth.
17:27So now we can join these organizations, see how maybe our team can help, how I, as an individual,
17:33can help, which a lot of times that means sweat equity.
17:38I think, I think people are, are down for sweat equity. Like, you know, I think it's far,
17:44a lot of the times, I feel like, just in my experience with people that with something like
17:50this, they, we mentioned a little bit, get overwhelmed. Like they think that they got to
17:54put on their Superman cape and then go out and like, they don't, one, that's far too big of a task
18:00and they don't know where to go anyway. But, you know, what you're talking about, educate,
18:04know the area that you live in, educate the area, become educated on the area which you live in,
18:08and then plug into an existing infrastructure, right? And, and serve. And that's because
18:15you serve there in order to serve, you know, further down the line.
18:21And, and I think most people are, are far, that's an easier in road and far more willing to do that
18:29rather than, like I said, kind of go out on your own to try to enact some sort of change. And you're
18:34like, man, I have no idea. Just plug into a local network or a local structure that has a history that
18:41already works and just be of service there. And then down the road, more opportunities will unveil
18:47themselves. 10,000%. Here in Atlanta, we have several organizations that are doing that. And I
18:54know that's the case in various parts of the country. And to your point, if it does feel
19:00overwhelming, or maybe you're in maybe more of a rural area where there's not, maybe as now there
19:08usually are though, I would say based off of just some of the fair housing organizations, I believe
19:14there's one in kind of every county, but still, if it's maybe if it's just, again, not feasible based
19:22on your schedule and so forth, even with that, even starting or participating in book clubs, online
19:30things, because some of these organizations, again, me being a nerd, they host like online book clubs so
19:37that you're reading about the history of the area. I'm in one right now. We're reading about how
19:43Atlanta was unfortunately segregated and the issues that that caused, but I didn't start the book club.
19:52I'm just reading with everyone and we're in community to discuss it. So I like people to,
19:59especially in these times, I don't ever want people to take for granted that being in community
20:06with people. Learning about it, being in community, that is something. We don't always have to feel
20:13like, you know, we're in a march or something. Not to say those things don't matter too, but
20:19learning and still being a part of the community and being more knowledgeable,
20:24that goes a long way in our industry because we are supposed to be kind of the historians in a sense
20:32as we talk about the homes to actually understand even the people that live there. That's powerful.
20:39I agree. What do you think looking down the road, you know, next five to 10 years, let's say,
20:45what would you like to see become, I guess, normal in U.S. housing in reference to fair and equitable
20:53housing? Yeah. Okay. So my, I have so many things on my wishlist, but I would say maybe the more
21:00attainable, I've got like some lofty goals, of course, but the more attainable thing is that
21:07I don't, I don't necessarily feel like it's, the goal should be that this never happens, that we
21:16never have issues and infringements. I don't think that's realistic because we're all human. Things can
21:22happen. But what I would love to see, my wish would be that people better understand people being
21:30our customers, our clients, they better understand their rights and they are swift to say, hey,
21:41this shouldn't be happening. Because what, and the reason why I say that is because so often
21:48we've come across people who, well, I'll give you one example. So this was maybe a decade ago,
21:56but I still hear it in passing, but there was an elderly woman, she was about 90 years old and she
22:02was buying for herself in her own name, her first home. And again, you know, we had laws through the
22:10seventies, but even though there were laws that said, hey, even as a woman, you can get credit, you can buy
22:18a home. There were still unfortunately, I guess, an unwritten rule in some places where some people
22:27still believed, hey, as a woman, no, I have to have a male cosigner. I have to have a male on name
22:35somewhere. So anyway, the fact that we did, we did, you know, just an information session, as we all tend to do
22:44some type of buyer session. Anyway, explain this. And she was flabbergasted. She was like,
22:51seriously, I'm 90, did not understand this. So coming back to my point, it's the education piece.
22:58I, if people still recognize the rights that they have when it comes to fair and affordable housing,
23:05and then they're quick to say, hey, that infringes on my rights, I would actually be a
23:14happy camper. That would make me extremely happy. So education and knowledge, those, that's our power.
23:22All right. Well, Lee, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time
23:26and enjoy this conversation. We're going to have to schedule another one soon.
23:30Because I'm a yapper. But thank you for having me, Seth. This is great.
23:34It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure.
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