- 4 weeks ago
Chris Hunsicker is a leadership strategist and culture coach who helps organizations move beyond outdated management models and build teams that thrive in today’s hybrid and AI-driven world. He challenges long-standing leadership assumptions and explains why traditional command-and-control approaches are quietly failing modern businesses — and what leaders must do instead to create sustainable performance, accountability, and trust.
What You’ll Learn
• Why traditional leadership habits are sabotaging long-term team success
• Why performance reviews often fail to produce real improvement
• How leaders can shift from managing people to coaching culture
• What high-performance teams look like in a hybrid and AI-enabled workplace
• How systems — not micromanagement — create consistent excellence
Chris Hunsicker is a leadership advisor and organizational coach focused on helping leaders modernize how they lead, communicate, and develop their teams. His work centers on replacing outdated leadership frameworks with practical systems that foster ownership, engagement, and high performance. Chris works with leaders who want to build resilient cultures where people grow, contribute, and perform without beaing managed into submission.
Sponsors & Partners
• NordVPN helps protect your privacy and security online by encrypting your internet connection and shielding your data from hackers, trackers, and snoopers — especially on public Wi-Fi. One click gives you fast, reliable protection across up to ten devices. Get peace of mind online with a 30-day money-back guarantee at NordVPN.com/tony.
• Monarch is an all-in-one personal finance platform designed to help you manage your money proactively, not reactively. From budgeting and investments to net worth tracking and future planning, Monarch brings everything together in one clear dashboard. Use code DURSO at monarch.com to get 50% off your first year.
• Shopify gives entrepreneurs everything they need to start and grow a business — online and in person. With beautiful templates, built-in AI tools, and integrated marketing features, Shopify makes launching and scaling simple. Start your business with a $1 per month trial at shopify.com/tony.
• For sponsorship opportunities, email ad-sales@libsyn.com.
Resources & Links Mentioned
1 🔗 Connect with Chris Hunsicker: https://chrishunsicker.com
2 🎧 Listen on Apple: https://tonydurso.com/apple
3 🎵 Tony’s Music: https://tonydurso.com/music
4 📧 Join the Newsletter: https://tonydurso.com/news
5 🎥 Watch the Video: https://tonydurso.com/videos
Tony’s Closing Words
Use this and let’s help you Move on YOUR Journey to Success!
Just Take Action. – Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds and join me on the next episode.
What You’ll Learn
• Why traditional leadership habits are sabotaging long-term team success
• Why performance reviews often fail to produce real improvement
• How leaders can shift from managing people to coaching culture
• What high-performance teams look like in a hybrid and AI-enabled workplace
• How systems — not micromanagement — create consistent excellence
Chris Hunsicker is a leadership advisor and organizational coach focused on helping leaders modernize how they lead, communicate, and develop their teams. His work centers on replacing outdated leadership frameworks with practical systems that foster ownership, engagement, and high performance. Chris works with leaders who want to build resilient cultures where people grow, contribute, and perform without beaing managed into submission.
Sponsors & Partners
• NordVPN helps protect your privacy and security online by encrypting your internet connection and shielding your data from hackers, trackers, and snoopers — especially on public Wi-Fi. One click gives you fast, reliable protection across up to ten devices. Get peace of mind online with a 30-day money-back guarantee at NordVPN.com/tony.
• Monarch is an all-in-one personal finance platform designed to help you manage your money proactively, not reactively. From budgeting and investments to net worth tracking and future planning, Monarch brings everything together in one clear dashboard. Use code DURSO at monarch.com to get 50% off your first year.
• Shopify gives entrepreneurs everything they need to start and grow a business — online and in person. With beautiful templates, built-in AI tools, and integrated marketing features, Shopify makes launching and scaling simple. Start your business with a $1 per month trial at shopify.com/tony.
• For sponsorship opportunities, email ad-sales@libsyn.com.
Resources & Links Mentioned
1 🔗 Connect with Chris Hunsicker: https://chrishunsicker.com
2 🎧 Listen on Apple: https://tonydurso.com/apple
3 🎵 Tony’s Music: https://tonydurso.com/music
4 📧 Join the Newsletter: https://tonydurso.com/news
5 🎥 Watch the Video: https://tonydurso.com/videos
Tony’s Closing Words
Use this and let’s help you Move on YOUR Journey to Success!
Just Take Action. – Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds and join me on the next episode.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Well, my guest today, Chris Hunziker, he's one of the bold voices leading this transformation
00:05with years of experience guiding organizations through.
00:10And that's the key that I find is as human beings, think of this in your marriage, with
00:17your children, or in your workplace.
00:18Welcome back to the podcast.
00:31Now, every generation has its defining shift.
00:35And in business leadership, that shift is happening right now.
00:39Guys, you know this, for decades, companies were built around compliance, command.
00:45They had 10, 20-year, 25-year strategies.
00:49They were built on performance reviews, which being in the corporate world for three decades,
00:54let me tell you, those things felt more like punishment than progress.
00:58But today's workforce, guys, you know this, is so different, especially in an AI-driven,
01:04let's call it an AI-driven hybrid world.
01:07And that really craves something different.
01:09We want purpose, autonomy, and growth.
01:12Well, my guest today, Chris Hunziker, he's one of the bold voices leading this transformation
01:19with years of experience guiding organizations through what I call cultural reinvention.
01:26It's probably what he calls it, too.
01:27He helps leaders move from managing people to coaching culture.
01:32We're going to unpack what that means.
01:34We're going to talk about why traditional leadership models are breaking down
01:38and how you can create high-performance teams that thrive without micromanagement.
01:45Now, again, my three years, my three decades in corporate says that's impossible.
01:50Chris says it's possible.
01:52So, guys, if you've ever wondered why old leadership tactics, they're just not working anymore,
01:58if you've ever wondered how to build a resilient, self-motivated team in today's extremely fast-changing world,
02:05this is a conversation you don't want to miss.
02:07Let's begin.
02:08Let's go bring them on.
02:10Hi, Chris.
02:11Welcome to the Tony D'Erso Show.
02:13Hello, Tony.
02:14Thank you for having me on.
02:15I'm kind of excited to be here.
02:16I'm very excited because I have so many questions.
02:19When I first found out about you, it was like, oh, I got to ask him this.
02:23I got to ask him that.
02:23I got to ask him this.
02:25And it's all about, let's call it, leading beyond tradition.
02:29It's a new world.
02:30You know, there's modern leaders out there, and they're building teams, and there's AI going on.
02:36And I've got so many questions, and I'm sure the audience does, too.
02:40Well, let's start here, Chris.
02:41Let's kind of, before we dig into this, let's talk about how did this all start for you?
02:47And maybe tell us your backstory.
02:49And when did you realize that the traditional leadership model simply wasn't working anymore?
02:57That was a, it wasn't a moment where it all clicked for me.
03:00It really was a series of events, and it does have to do with how I got started.
03:04I began as a marriage and family therapist.
03:07I worked with adolescent drug addicts, and my job was to work with them, counsel, do therapy.
03:14And I loved it.
03:15It was almost a calling for me.
03:17But five years into my run as a therapist, our hospital was bought by a large corporation, and they closed it down.
03:24They basically said we could make 8% more money with cardiac rehab than drug rehab and shut me down.
03:31And this is like 150 kids in aftercare.
03:33I mean, it was a pretty intense thing.
03:35One of the vice presidents of a major corporation at the time, their son was in my program.
03:43And once the program shut down, she called me, and she said,
03:47Chris, is there any way you could do for our company what you did for my family?
03:51Because my company is more screwed up than our family.
03:53I said, I'm not really a consultant.
03:55I'm not sure.
03:56She said, we'll pay you.
03:57And at the time, I had four children.
03:59My wife was a stay-at-home mom, and we had no income.
04:02I was highly motivated to make this work.
04:04And I went in, and I met.
04:05And I'd use the name of the company, except you'd know it.
04:07And I met with the CEO, and he spent 40 minutes telling me how awesome his company was.
04:14And by the time I got done, I said, listen, I got to ask you, if your company is so awesome,
04:20why are you going to pay me $2,000 a day to come in and help you do consulting work on it?
04:24And he just lost it.
04:25I mean, like yelling, screaming, foaming at the mouth.
04:27And I said, so you struggle with emotional self-regulation, which really set him off.
04:32And this went on for minutes.
04:35And finally, I said, I need to ask you, is this how you act in front of your people?
04:40And he started kind of yelling at me a little bit more.
04:44I said, so how many marriages have you been through?
04:46Which really set him off, and it had been two more.
04:49And I said, let me summarize this for you.
04:51You have a good news to the top organization where nobody tells you the truth because they're
04:55all afraid of you, and you only hear good news.
04:57So you make really poor strategic decisions, which is what's creating the problems, which set
05:02him off again.
05:03When he finally got all done with that, I said, listen, I don't need to be here.
05:08I'm here to help you out.
05:09I interviewed some of your people.
05:10I've spent some time with you.
05:12And I can tell you that your culture has some beautiful elements to it, but you lack emotional
05:18self-regulation.
05:19You use a lot of command and control, and it's destroying your trust with people.
05:24You're like the husband that says, go ahead, marry me.
05:27I'm really stable.
05:28I'm good.
05:29I'm great with kids.
05:30I have good income, but twice a year, I'm going to Vegas and have an affair.
05:33But don't worry.
05:33It's just sex.
05:34No, it isn't.
05:35It's a lack of trust.
05:36And that's the way you show up.
05:38And after an hour, he finally calmed down and he said, I really need this, don't I?
05:44I said, only if you want your company to grow.
05:46And I didn't realize as a consultant, you were supposed to tell the CEO how great they
05:51were and lie to him and then go back and talk to everyone else.
05:53I just grew up as a therapist telling people the truth.
05:55And no one had ever talked to him that way.
05:59And once he got done with all of his craziness, he sat down, he said, I think we need to do
06:03this.
06:03Well, I spent a year with that company doing a culture change and working with all of their
06:08mid-level managers.
06:09At the end of that year, that's when it dawned on me.
06:12I'm way better at helping good people become better than sick people become healthy.
06:17And that was the transition point.
06:19Wow, what a story.
06:22I'm like, how straight up you are and honest and how you just call it like it is.
06:29We could have used you in some of the companies that I've been in, I'll tell you that right
06:34now, because it was either the CEO or whoever's in charge is their way or the highway.
06:40It really ran that way.
06:41Not even a joke, guys.
06:43Whatever anyone has as a job today or whatever kind of work workplace or work world you're
06:50in, it was like how Chris is describing it and how I'm describing it back in the day.
06:56I don't know what it's like.
06:58I haven't had a job in a while, but it really was like that.
07:01You worked, but you had to watch how you did things because you wanted your job.
07:07If you didn't want your job, then you were straight up honest, perhaps, and you wouldn't
07:10be there for long.
07:11Right.
07:13And with that, I'm thinking that this really breaks the mold, Chris.
07:18It's a game changer how you just helped sort out companies.
07:24And we just talked about this is one, let's call it a habit.
07:28Let's talk about outdated habits that you see are still there in the workplace that are holding
07:34organizations back.
07:36Maybe the CEOs and C-level executives, business owners that are listening to this now can learn
07:41a few things.
07:43Sure.
07:43And I'll put it this way.
07:45I was sitting with a, and I do a lot of work with car dealerships.
07:50Over the years, I've worked with them a lot.
07:51I did a bunch of work with Ford Motor Company.
07:53I ran their global coaching program for about five years.
07:56And I'm sitting in a very large dealership group down in Florida, and I have his whole C-suite
08:04group with him.
08:06And after this kind of conversation, he looked at me and he said, so what do you think?
08:10And I said, permission to speak freely?
08:12And he goes, yeah.
08:13I said, you're ideally suited to compete in a market that no longer exists.
08:16And if 1996 ever comes back, you are going to kick butt and take names.
08:20Other than that, your sole value is the real estate.
08:23Wow.
08:24A lot of quietness in the room.
08:26And he said, to his credit, he goes, I've known that for years, but I don't know what
08:31else to do.
08:32And that's the key that I find is, as human beings, think of this in your marriage, with
08:39your children, or in your workplace.
08:41When we as human beings get to the end of our skill set, we blame and we demand.
08:48So think of it in a marriage situation.
08:50My wife is having a hard time for one reason or another, and I run out of patience.
08:55I get to the end of my skill set to be patient or empathic.
08:58And then I start blaming her for being demanding, dysfunctional, not good.
09:02And I know so much therapy talk, I'm an educated blamer.
09:07And so most people, they do.
09:09They spend their life going to seminars, reading books, listening to stuff, not to become better,
09:14but to simply become more educated in their blaming.
09:17Because the fact of the matter is, my wife isn't crazy.
09:21I've reached the end of my skill set.
09:23And rather than acknowledge that I need to change and grow, I blame or demand.
09:29And that's the challenge.
09:30The very first chapter in my book, it starts off paragraph one.
09:33It says, in order for things to get better, you need to get better.
09:37Nearly every manager I've ever worked with have said to me, if I just had better people,
09:42and think about it, I'm a family therapist, right?
09:45If I had better kids, I could be such a great dad, but I just got idiot kids.
09:49And my wife's crazy.
09:50And if I had a less crazy wife, I could be a great father and a great husband, because
09:53I'm a marriage therapist.
09:54And as a manager, if I just had better people, then I could excel.
09:58No.
09:59The problem is you.
10:01And you've reached the end of your skill set.
10:03So you blame everybody else for not being good enough.
10:06And if the whole world were better, then you could be getter.
10:09Really?
10:09Well, then we don't need you.
10:11And that's the challenge that I find.
10:13It's not just, are you in an outdated mindset?
10:16And there is.
10:16There's that command and control that I'm in charge.
10:19Like, dude, does it say manager on your door too?
10:21Oh, I didn't think so.
10:22Well, thanks for sharing.
10:24Everybody knows that that's insane.
10:27But what you finally have now is you have this Gen Z group of people that they're not
10:32just not, like the Gen Xers, they're not going to fight you on it.
10:35They're just going to walk away.
10:37And for years, I've taught people that the workforce is a volunteer workforce.
10:42Now, we had little handcuffs around health care and benefits and sometimes around 401ks.
10:48But even those are getting loose enough that if I walk in as a Gen Z employee and you start
10:54doing that command and control crazy stuff on me, I'm not going to yell at you.
10:59I'm not going to fight with you.
11:00I'm just going to walk away.
11:02And we say, oh, they're ghosting us.
11:04And they don't come back.
11:04Yeah, they don't come back because you're an idiot.
11:07But nobody really wants to have that conversation.
11:09Does that make sense?
11:10So that's the one thing.
11:12And then the other is this idea that my job as a manager is to spend my entire time obsessing
11:19about what you do wrong, catching you doing it wrong, and then finding a way to jump in
11:23and tell you how you're doing it wrong.
11:25And somehow you're going to look at me and go, oh, my gosh, Tony, thank you so much for
11:30telling me.
11:30Can I work on getting better on that right now?
11:33As if that's really going to happen.
11:34And all the research, all the data, if you look at positive psychology today, go back
11:40to Stoic philosophy back in the ancient Greeks, you go back to Buddhism 4,000 years ago in
11:45China, it's all the same thing.
11:48What you focus on, you get more of.
11:51And your ability to catch people doing things right, to reinforce, to build like those dopamine
11:57habit loops around what actually works when things are going right instead of what's
12:01going wrong is probably the biggest shift.
12:03If I could take any manager and I get them for five minutes and I get to wave my magic
12:08wand over their head and give them one skill set, I would give them the ability to shift
12:12from focusing on things gone wrong to things gone right.
12:17Wow.
12:17First of all, I can't stop laughing.
12:19I think this is a, I think you would make a great comedy show and I don't mean to be silly
12:25or stupid or whatever, but having worked again so many years for so many bosses and so many
12:31companies, I see so much of that, that you're saying it's like, wow, you just hit the nail
12:37on the head.
12:38We need you and more people like you, Chris, in the world, or though I haven't, you know,
12:43disclaimer, I haven't had a job for a little while, so I don't know what it's like, but it
12:46sounds like it's still like that out there and hopefully we can change a few minds and
12:51take care of a few things.
12:54And by the way, this is Chris Hunsaker.
12:56We're talking about leading beyond tradition.
12:59We're diving into how modern leaders are building teams that thrive in the AI age.
13:06And I'm going to ask you some questions about that shortly.
13:08You can find him at chrishunseker.com.
13:12So Chris, that's C-H-R-I-S and Hunsaker is H-U-N-S-I-C-K-E-R.com.
13:21Chrishunseker.com.
13:24So many things going through my head.
13:26I do want to talk about AI, but before I get into AI, Chris, I want to talk about the
13:32performance trap.
13:33At least that's kind of the way I look at it.
13:35We, you know, I've been through performance reviews.
13:40I've given performance reviews.
13:42And when you say to a person who's lazy and doesn't do their job and you give them a four
13:48on the score of one to five for, are they lazy or not?
13:52You say, you know, you could improve a little bit.
13:54They'll get upset where they should really get a one.
13:57You're being nice to give them a four.
13:59And, and it's like, in other words, the person's own point of view of how they work is so different
14:07from what's real.
14:09And you've got to mitigate that because you, you don't want to come in blunt force trauma.
14:14You're lazy.
14:15You know, you've got to put it in a way that motivates them, but then you can't go to the
14:19other side and say, you're doing such a great job.
14:23Can you do better?
14:24So, so it's, it's a performance trap.
14:27I'm going to leave it to you.
14:28It's your problem now to help us solve it.
14:31So let's take a look at this.
14:33I want to stay in this vein of things gone right versus things gone wrong.
14:36Cause I think it will, it will address this because we could spend hours just on performance
14:41reviews and why they don't work.
14:42But the core dilemma is this, how do I separate your behavior performance from you as an individual,
14:50but deliver that message in a way that you can see it, act on it and change it.
14:56That's the whole purpose of where we're going.
14:58Performance reviews are like customer satisfaction scores.
15:01Customer satisfaction scores were invented by people at the corporation that have no idea
15:06what's going on in the business.
15:07Performance reviews couldn't do anything if they had to, but it gives them a number to
15:11put on a spreadsheet so they can judge and evaluate you and decide whether you're good
15:14or bad when they have no idea what's going on anyway.
15:16And ask anybody in any organization, the people who run CSI have no idea what everybody else
15:21is doing, but they have their spreadsheet that makes them feel good.
15:24It's a game and a lie.
15:26And I don't care what industry you're in.
15:28So performance reviews are an extension of that same game and that same lie.
15:32It has nothing to do with what's actually going on.
15:34And you've been to stores that have a terrible customer experience and a great CSI score.
15:41And you've been to stores that have a terrible CSI score and a great customer experience because
15:46it's a lie in a game.
15:48Now, as we dive into AI, this is great because one of the things you're seeing with AI as
15:52you're starting to shift from Google and some of their traditional metrics of what they
15:58had to how AI is going, what's happening is now bots are going out and they're able to
16:03look at everything that everybody has ever said about you.
16:06So on your website, when you say we're the fastest, we're the best, they're able to
16:10see whether you are.
16:12And if you aren't, they immediately deprioritize you in the results because now your authenticity
16:18is more important than your marketing.
16:20And that's a metaphor for everything that we're talking about.
16:24So my performance review, which I would say is that old mindset, it's a game and it's
16:29a lie.
16:29What you're really looking at is how do I have a conversation with you about where you're
16:34really at and what you and I can do together to get you to someplace else?
16:38One tool you can use is called motivational interviewing.
16:42Now, it sounds weird, but it's not.
16:43It's the idea of looking at the difference between where you are and where you want to
16:47be.
16:48So in a performance review or any kind of interview, I could say, hey, so on a scale of one
16:53to 10, where would you say you're at?
16:54And you, most people would say, I'm a six, I'm a seven, something like that.
16:58Some people might even say an eight.
17:00We would then as a manager say, okay, so you're a seven.
17:03So tell me, Tony, what do we need to do to get you to a nine?
17:06Worst question you could ask.
17:07Never gives you good results and doesn't help at all.
17:11It's just a less sucky version of the game.
17:14Motivational interview takes the scale the other way.
17:17Tony, you said you gave yourself a seven.
17:19Why didn't you pick a five or a four?
17:21And you're going to go, well, because I do this and I do this, and you're going to start
17:25listing those behaviors that you do when you're at your best.
17:30Now, what I have is the perfect recipe for what drives you, what you do when you're at
17:36your best.
17:37Now, I can look at how do I get you from seven to nine by helping you do those behaviors
17:42more often.
17:44So that just simple shift.
17:46Why didn't you pick a four?
17:47And you then share with me, well, because of this, this, this, this.
17:51Okay, tell me about that.
17:51So why do you do that?
17:53How often does that come up?
17:55When are you best at that?
17:56When are you worst at that?
17:57How often?
17:58Where's the consistency?
17:59And now I have an honest, upfront dialogue about you and what you're really like with
18:05authenticity, with real clarity and directness.
18:08Instead of this gaming, political stuff, trying to figure out, I don't want to be too direct
18:12because you might get offended.
18:14And you don't want to be too honest because I might hold it against you.
18:16And it's just a dance of dysfunction.
18:19And if you can get a better tool or a better sequence, you're going to do much better.
18:24And that's really, when I work with managers, that's one of the key skills.
18:28Like I give you guys a, anyone that's listening to it, Google, go onto your AI, ask ChatGTP
18:34to explain to you motivational interviewing, you can learn it in 10 minutes, what I'm talking
18:39about.
18:39But as a simple thing, when you're asking someone where they're at in their performance,
18:43go down, not up, listen to what they say, find behavioral things, and then lean into
18:48those behavioral things.
18:50I'm thinking with this, this is kind of new to me in a way, you know, I haven't been in
18:55this for a while.
18:56And I'm thinking one of the things that I'm picking up from our conversation is a shift,
19:02whether it's really happening or whether you're spearheading it or promoting it, is
19:07we're going, is it going from management, do this, do that, pick up this paper, bring
19:12it over there, to coaching, to how can I help you do better?
19:16How can I do this?
19:17It seems like this shift.
19:19So let's talk about that.
19:21And is that happening now?
19:23Or is that what should be happening is, you know, helping to coach people to be better
19:29versus telling them what to do?
19:31Uh, it's not only happening, it's happening at an accelerated rate.
19:35The challenge is, um, with anything, there are charlatans, idiots, crazy people in any
19:44type of field or thing that you're going to see.
19:46Um, and some people try to take command and control, put it in a coaching coat and call
19:53it coaching.
19:53That's not coaching.
19:54There is a need for more coaching.
19:56And, and let me make this distinction.
19:59One of the great traps that really good managers have, you also see this with really good parents
20:04is that hero complex.
20:06Like I want to step in, I want to do everybody.
20:08I want to defend my people.
20:10I'm going to show them what's up.
20:10And they end up burning themselves out over time.
20:12And if you go back and look at mythology, there's always truth in mythology.
20:17That's why it lasts thousands of years that what most people need as a manager, as a director,
20:25as a coach, they need the guide, not the hero.
20:30Okay.
20:31We need to be Obi-Wan Kenobi, not Luke Skywalker.
20:35Right.
20:35But we try to be Luke Skywalker, but you're Luke Skywalker.
20:40You're the hero of your story.
20:42My job isn't to swoop in and be the hero.
20:44My job is to be Obi-Wan Kenobi, to teach you how to use the force, to help you figure
20:50out what's already there.
20:51I tell everybody that I coach, you are not broken and you don't need to heal your inner
20:55child and you don't need to get, you know, somehow magically transformed.
21:00All of my coaching, when people will say to me, this happens on airplanes all the time.
21:04You know, you're sitting in first class and someone says, what do you do?
21:06And sometimes I, I won't even tell the truth because I say I'm an executive coach and it's
21:10a bi-coastal flight, like New York to LA.
21:13I'm going to be drawn into a free coaching session.
21:15All right.
21:16And, and when they asked me to explain it, I will tell people this as a coach, my job
21:21is to help you figure out what do you do when you're at your best?
21:24Then how do you do that more often in different places and areas?
21:28And finally, how can you learn to do it on demand and under pressure?
21:32That's what coaching is.
21:34And a lot of times we dress up consulting.
21:37I'm going to come in and tell you what to do and how to do it, but I'm just going to
21:39do it nicer than your boss.
21:41That's the difference between a boss and a consultant.
21:43A coach is going to start with the premise that you already know how to be excellent.
21:48You're already excellent in some areas of your life.
21:49You just can't do it in the other area.
21:51So let's find out what you do in that area and let me help you do it in another area.
21:55And that ability to have high quality conversations, that's even more than words like coaching to
22:03get overused.
22:04Your ability as a leader or a manager to have frequent, regular, high quality conversations
22:10with your people is what defines trust, authenticity, relationship.
22:14And ultimately, my desire to give what in business school, they call it discretionary effort.
22:20So I can pay you a certain amount of money and buy your hands and get you to do a task.
22:24I might even pay you a bonus or something and get a few of your ideas in your head.
22:28But your heart, you can only give to me because you feel seen, heard, and understood and desire
22:34to.
22:35There is a discretionary effort that people that love their work, their company, their
22:40boss, their patients, their clients bring voluntarily.
22:44And you can't pay for that.
22:45Go to an NBA arena.
22:47There are men on the floor getting paid millions of dollars a year and they mail it in.
22:52And there's a volunteer in the stands working the concessions or the aisles that brings his
22:59heart and passion to everything he's got.
23:01And he might make $15 an hour.
23:03He might be doing it for free.
23:06You cannot buy my heart or passion, but you can create space where I will willingly give
23:11it because everybody is looking for a pace that they can believe, that they can be passionate
23:17about, that they can truly go all in.
23:19But after five minutes with half the bosses that you'll ever meet, you know, you'll never
23:24trust them enough to do that.
23:27Chris, while you're saying this, I've got this concept and, and I, I, I'm not argumentative
23:34or anything like that.
23:37There's not an argument, but, or anything, but it just seems to me, and you're going to
23:42educate me.
23:43I'm asking you to help me figure it out because it seems, it seems to me.
23:47And again, I have, I have, I'm not out there doing a job.
23:51So, so for all I know, 99% of the audience could say, Tony, you're wrong, but it seems
23:55to me that it's not that type of a world.
23:58And I'm going to explain.
23:59We have AI.
24:01I go in and I type in my favorite AI.
24:03How do I do this?
24:05Or what should I do with this?
24:07And, and I've get it and it's printed.
24:09It says, Tony, do this and this and this.
24:11I'm doing it.
24:12It doesn't matter if my heart's in it or my soul, or if I like it, or I love it.
24:16It said, Tony, do this and this and this.
24:18I do it.
24:18So what's this management and coaching and love and love the job.
24:22I just did my job.
24:24You know, it seems like it's a different world.
24:27And, and I'm not, like I said, I'm not trying to argue on it, but it just seems like, and
24:32here the executive CEO is trying to get production.
24:35But he's got people, they, they don't think they know what they're doing, Chris.
24:40They know they're, they know what they're doing because chat GPT or some AI program said,
24:45Tony, you just do this and this and you're done.
24:47It's like, Hey, I'm out of here.
24:49So, so there's this juxtaposition.
24:51If you like, you're shaking your head.
24:53I think, you know, where I'm going.
24:54Please help, please help sort this out.
24:57This may be the best question I've heard all month.
25:00So yeah, you're going to get my best answer to Robert Sutton at Stanford University wrote
25:05an amazing, he's a researcher on business and leadership, and he wrote an amazing, his
25:09first book was called the no assholes rule, which I really, that's made me fell in love
25:13with him.
25:13His second book was called good boss, bad boss.
25:16And in there, he went through 12 beliefs of really good bosses.
25:20One of those 12 beliefs is because I am in a position of power, I am in danger of being
25:26an insensitive jerk and not knowing it.
25:29That is how like anyone who's ever held power, the more, you know, you're right, the more
25:38you need to listen to why you're wrong.
25:41And everybody that I've ever coached, when I've taken them in their, their most difficult
25:45situation that they've had, and they tell me about why they know this is it.
25:50The minute I can get them to see it from a different perspective, the solution almost always
25:55manifests itself.
25:56It was there all along, but they couldn't see it because they were so convinced of how
26:00right they were.
26:01The danger with AI is not what people think it is, all right?
26:05The more we use AI to free up menial tasks so that we can focus on connection, the better
26:12AI is going to make us more connected, not less connected.
26:15Because everything they're saying about AI, they literally said about the radio in 1920.
26:21Then they said it about the TV in 1950.
26:23This is going to kill families, they're going to go in the living room, it's going to take
26:27over, nobody's ever going to talk to each other anymore, they're going to end up, look,
26:30they're sitting eating their dinners in front of the television, people don't even talk at
26:33dinner anymore, it's going to mess us up.
26:36And then the internet, it's going to destroy us all, every single invention, this is the
26:41same reason, same comment.
26:42But every time, it's given us opportunities to correct deeply and more strongly.
26:48The problem that you're describing with AI that I think is so critical is knowledge is not
26:53power, execution is power.
26:56And the best way I can explain this is, you can ask ChatGTP a thousand different ways
27:01how to get a date or make love, and none of them is going to help you do it better.
27:09Okay, there's an element of connection.
27:11You're Italian, right?
27:13There is magic to beautiful food.
27:15I teach at a university in Paris every year, so every year, my wife and I go to Europe for
27:20a month, and I always eat well, and I love it, because when food is made with heart, with
27:27passion, with love, you can taste it.
27:29I could give you all the ChatGTP ingredients that you want.
27:33I could give you lists and everything, but it doesn't change someone that understands food
27:39and the way they make it.
27:41And management, systems, and relationship are no different.
27:46ChatGTP can give you all the information you need, and you need it, and it is a wonderful
27:50starting point, but that's the problem.
27:53If you believe that food ends at the last line of the recipe, you should never walk in the
27:58kitchen.
27:59And if you believe that management ends at the last line of the ChatGTP, you should never
28:04be in leadership.
28:05That's the—we mistake a starting point for an end point.
28:12All AI does is narrow the time from thought to action.
28:18In other words, I don't have to spend hours and hours and hours and days and days researching.
28:22I can get it all right here.
28:23But once I get that insight, now I need to execute in the real world.
28:28And that, the ultimate, I would say, marriage that you're going to see is the marriage between
28:35emotional intelligence and artificial intelligence to create an unbelievable depth of connection.
28:43I'm processing that.
28:45I love the answer.
28:46I think it's great.
28:47It's beautiful.
28:49So, in your own words or from your point of view, how does this high-performance team
28:57look like today?
28:58How should it operate?
28:59How does it look like?
29:00How should it work?
29:01How does it work?
29:02Kind of walk us through it because, yeah, it's like—I'm sure I have more questions.
29:08I'm still processing this.
29:09This is very unique.
29:10Sure.
29:10I love it.
29:11I love it.
29:12So, I would describe a high-performance culture, high-performance team in these areas.
29:18It has a sense of mission and purpose.
29:21It has a sense of trust and accountability.
29:24And it has a sense of connection and communication, that all of these you're going to see that
29:28when you build a high-performance team, what you're really trying to do is create an atmosphere
29:34where I'm allowed to make mistakes, I'm accountable for those mistakes, but the relationship is
29:41consistently repaired.
29:43And that's where, if you look, there's kind of, I would call, shame-based coaching versus
29:47respect-based coaching.
29:49Shame-based coaching is people should be perfect.
29:51You should never make a mistake.
29:53When you make a mistake, I'm going to hold you accountable because I'm a good leader,
29:56and that's what good leaders is hold people accountable.
29:58Well, you're full of crap because nobody's perfect.
30:00All human beings make mistakes.
30:02And the more people are able to make mistakes falling forward in the service of their customers,
30:08trying to make things better, looking to improve, you want to encourage and get as much of that
30:13as you can.
30:14You want to iterate as fast as you possibly can.
30:16But almost everything in our society, as we have become more hierarchical, we've become incredibly risk-averse.
30:24And this has been going on forever.
30:25Hewlett-Packard created their skunk works because if you worked in the corporation and you wanted to try something new,
30:31you had to go through 15 gates to get there.
30:33So the only way to innovate was literally for them to buy that studio outside of Los Angeles
30:39and send their engineers away from the corporation so they were allowed to be intelligent.
30:44Because if you spent too long at the mothership, you got stupid.
30:48And it isn't that they got stupid, it's they got stifled.
30:52And so in a high-performance team, one of the real characteristics is that when you are being selfish and self-serving
30:59and political, you are held, not only held accountable for it, but you aren't allowed to do that.
31:07On the other hand, when you're trying and doing new things and you fail and you fail forward
31:12and it's in the service of your customers and the team and improving, that's rewarded.
31:17And where you see the mismatch is we almost put 90, 95% of our rewards on results and not on effort.
31:26But if you look at building a growth mindset, and that's why, if you really had to define a high-performing team,
31:31it's a group of people that are all centered around Carol Dweck's idea of a growth mindset,
31:35that I can do hard things.
31:38The most recent book that I'm writing now is probably the best way I could explain it.
31:43And it's as yet untitled, but there's five core skills that the new workforce is coming into the workplace without.
31:52And our generation, we got it from the institutions that were available to us.
31:58They're no longer.
31:59And these are the five things that are missing, and this is why you don't have high-performing teams.
32:04Number one, there's a lack of psychological resilience.
32:07They cannot see injustice and unfairness take a punch and make it happen anyway.
32:11You and I both have immigrant parents.
32:14You know exactly what it was like.
32:15It wasn't fair.
32:16It wasn't easy.
32:17You know, my grandfather had, you know, Irish people need not apply, all right?
32:22I mean, that was the way we grew up.
32:23And he found a job at the quarries and the mines, and he did great, and he worked through it, and it's been awesome.
32:28But there's this sense of psychological resilience that I can take a punch and get back up.
32:34The second is we spent so much time on self-esteem and not on self-efficacy that we're messing up.
32:41Like, I can manipulate your environment to make you feel good about yourself, but once you get out of the environment I've manipulated, you're going to find out that you're not that awesome.
32:51And it devastates people.
32:53They don't have that sense that just because I try something the first time and it doesn't work, that doesn't mean you're not talented at it, it's not good at it.
33:00It means you need to go get a tutor.
33:02It means you need to put in extra work.
33:04You need to spend more time.
33:05You need to get a coach.
33:06You need to work at it.
33:07But that efficacy, that sense that I can do hard things, and I told all my kids, I go, listen, you have your mom and I as parents, so you are neither going to be the most intelligent or the most beautiful person ever.
33:17And I have never been the smartest person in the room, but nobody can outwork me.
33:21I will bury you because that's self-efficacy.
33:24The third thing that's missing is a sense of resilience, that things do not happen overnight.
33:30Things do not happen in a few weeks.
33:31You have to be able to stay in the failure for a long time.
33:37And the fourth is they're missing what I would call a servant's heart.
33:41There's this so much oppression theology going on that somehow if I choose to serve you, that you're the man that's taking advantage of me and putting it down.
33:49You even see it at McDonald's.
33:50Like, I can't smile and be nice to you because I have to let you know that you don't own me, even though I'm working at McDonald's.
33:55So this sense that joy and happiness comes from putting someone else's needs ahead of your own, that that is where true centeredness and peace comes from, is almost lost.
34:07And then the fifth that I think is most critical is people lack what I would call emotional stamina, the ability to get yourself to do what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, whether you feel like it or not.
34:19Now, you give me a group of five, 10 or 50 people with those five skills, I got a high performance team.
34:25I love it.
34:26I love it.
34:27So much I can comment on this.
34:29We can make this a series.
34:31You know, about six, seven years ago, perhaps, I interviewed the foremost AI expert in the world at the time who explained why AI, computers, computer intelligence can never take over a person.
34:47Can never, can never replace a person fully.
34:49They can do work, but they can never replace it.
34:52Well, when you talk today about going to France and eating good food and cooking, then that penny dropped.
34:59I know why computers can't cook a good, a good meal.
35:04You know why?
35:05I'll tell you why, Chris, because they can't taste the food.
35:08They can give you the, they can say, put in this salt and this and this and hey, everybody listening right now, everybody knows milk and sugar and vanilla and chocolate and cream and knows, knows salt.
35:24You know, these words, but I dare you.
35:27I challenge you right now.
35:28Go into your kitchen and bake me the best chocolate souffle I've ever had, or one of the top five.
35:32Because I used to travel the world eating the chocolate souffle, so, and I know what a good one tastes like, right?
35:38So, yes, it's being able to taste and experience, I think is another, is another factor.
35:44And I say that because this is a complicated question I think I'm going to ask you, but it's very simple.
35:50I'm trying to put it in simple terms, is I've interviewed a lot of people with beautiful knowledge of why a system and the right system can run the whole company.
36:04But it's similar, very similar.
36:06It's almost identical to saying the AI could run the company.
36:10But again, it's the same thing.
36:11It only knows do this and this and this, but it can't taste the food.
36:16So, let's talk about and kind of go into how do we use systems?
36:22Because right now, the corporate executives, the business people listening, they have systems in place.
36:28And you're, through me, through the show, trying to show them there's more to it than that.
36:33There's more to running the company to that.
36:36I'm not even sure of the exact question, but you've got some of the pieces here.
36:39Can you walk us through what's the proper system?
36:43Is that the way to say it?
36:44What's the good systemic leadership?
36:46How should we operate today with all this?
36:50Without being overly reductionist, because the format requires us to be somewhat that way, a boat will always leave a wake.
36:58There's two sides to the wake, the right side and the left side.
37:02And I would suggest that the system or the right system finds the local application of balance between results and relationship.
37:11If the right side of the wake is results, if there is no mission, if there is no margin in your business, it doesn't matter what your mission is.
37:18You have to make money.
37:20That's what a business does.
37:21And if you only focus on results and not on relationship, then you will be guaranteed to fail.
37:28And you could see this over and over.
37:30If all you focus on is relationship without results and you carry a country club, then, again, you're not going to have a business and go through.
37:37Truth is always found in proving contraries.
37:40And we have become so polemic in how we think that we've lost that thing.
37:45Everywhere you see, look before you leap, and he who hesitates is lost.
37:49Out of sight, out of mind, right?
37:52Or absence makes the heart grow fonder.
37:55In a religious context, this has been philosophy for years, is it justice or is it mercy?
38:00Yes.
38:01All truth is found in proving contraries.
38:04Is it AI systems or is it people?
38:07Yes.
38:08The truth is in the contrary.
38:09In every local application, your particular business, your particular clientele, your particular country that you're working in,
38:16there is a balance between results and relationships that you have to find.
38:21And if someone could find it for you, then it wouldn't be truth.
38:25And it also wouldn't be applicable to your thing.
38:28What you have to guard on, and you know, you've worked for bosses that lean too far to relationship,
38:34and they had to pull back to results, and you've worked for bosses that lean too hard to results,
38:39and they had to pull back to relationship.
38:40As a coach, one of the main things that I do is help people find, for you, all of us have a home we go to.
38:48Under pressure, when things get hard, when it gets tough, I was raised by a father who was a special forces operator,
38:55three tours in Vietnam.
38:56All right, when I get under pressure and things, I go into warrior mode, all right?
39:01My kids will even tell you this, that, like, what happened to dad?
39:05Because when I get under pressure, I'm going to default to results.
39:09I may kill people and break things, but I will get stuff done.
39:13Okay?
39:13Hopefully not.
39:14Under pressure.
39:15Yes, I know, but you get the metaphor.
39:17Therefore, other people default to relationship, and my wife is that, and she spent, we'll be married 40 years next week,
39:25and she spent 40 years as my Obi-Wan Kenobi.
39:29Wow.
39:30Teaching me how to default to relationship.
39:33And now, as often as not, more often than not, under stress, I now default to relationship
39:39because I found that right balance between results and relationship.
39:44That's impressive.
39:45I've been with my wife for 33 years.
39:47We're catching up.
39:48I got to tell her she's Obi-Wan Kenobi-ish.
39:52She'll love it.
39:54Now, back to the show.
39:57I'm thinking with all this, and I'm thinking we want to take away, you know,
40:04and I'm thinking if I play back everything that we've just gone over as a corporate executive right now,
40:10business owner and entrepreneur, I believe that there's some good points here that I can use now to run my business better.
40:16But I'm still kind of leaning towards because I've spent a lot of money, time, and effort, and books, and webinars, and seminars, and everything on systems,
40:26and this is how you do things.
40:28And I'm starting to, you know, become a hybrid based on what Chris and Tony are talking about in the show.
40:35And I'm thinking, okay, well, do I have a good company?
40:39Do I have a great company?
40:41What do I need to do to become a great company?
40:43What about competitiveness?
40:45How do I scale?
40:46I've got these factors still.
40:48I've got to make money.
40:49I've got people to answer to.
40:50I'm not the king of everything.
40:52I've got other people who want money and want things and want product and want services from me no matter who I am.
40:58Even if you're the president, you've got people demanding things of you.
41:02So how do I scale and how do I put this all and make it make sense?
41:07You know where I'm getting with this?
41:10Very much so.
41:11So three principles I'll share with you that all of them you could use today, tomorrow, next week to help you with that.
41:18Number one is what I would call the domino principle.
41:21That is that anything that you do, when things go wrong, there's always the first domino that falls.
41:26If that first domino had never fallen, none of the other crazy stuff happens after it, right?
41:31If some idiot in the Republican Party never decided, you know what, we should have Watergate.
41:37Let's go in and steal some stuff.
41:40The whole – then Nixon never gets impeached.
41:43Does that make sense?
41:44Like if that first domino didn't fall, none of the other ones would fall after it.
41:49Secondly, dominoes have the power to basically topple twice their force.
41:55So I could take a little tiny domino that I have to place with a tweezer, and it will knock over one twice its size, twice its size, twice.
42:02Well, if I go 17 iterations in, I'm knocking over something that is about a 15-story building.
42:0927 iterations in, and I'm knocking over the Eiffel Tower with that.
42:12So the first thing that most people – and you've seen this with probably every executive you've known – they have so many pressures and so many things going on.
42:22They're trying to solve 17, 18, 19, 20, 30, 40 things all at once.
42:27And what I always say is find the first domino.
42:30What is the first domino that if we handle that, it stops the whole chain of sequences going on?
42:36When I sit with someone and I coach them and I give them a piece of paper, a pencil, and we have a conversation for 45 minutes where most of it is them thinking and writing, and we look at all the problems, all they have to solve, everything that's going on.
42:49And I keep forcing them to come down to what is the one issue, problem, system, difficulty that if we solve in solving it, everything else we're working on gets easier or actually goes away.
43:04So when you're losing a war, narrow the battlefield.
43:09The Navy SEALs call it front-sight focus.
43:12And with the proliferation of technology, with the unbelievable amount of information going on, nobody lacks enough information to make intelligent decisions.
43:22They lack the clarity and focus to make the right intelligent decision.
43:26And that's why we'll often force people to a pencil and a paper in a quiet room because that's when intuition, that's when intelligence starts to come out.
43:36So the domino principle is the first thing that if you need to make money and you really need to get there, then you've got to get better at focus.
43:44That is the most critical thing.
43:47We are all easily distracted.
43:48The second principle that I'd actually look at is what needs to be solved now.
43:54So in our conversations as a coach, if I sit down and I begin my coaching conversation, I say, so tell me, Tony, how are things going?
44:03You're just going to puke your dysfunction on me.
44:06All the chaos of your life is just going to become my session.
44:10And that's worthless.
44:11So if you and I were coaching and I'd sit down and I'd ask everyone to take this framework, this is the single best coaching framework I think.
44:17This one comes from Dr. Joey Collins at the Seattle Pacific University, and it's brilliant.
44:23And I use this with nearly every client I have.
44:26My first question is, what's your biggest concern right now?
44:30And usually you'll tell me or you'll tell me three, four, five, six things.
44:33And I say, great.
44:34So of all of those, which is the one that if we fix, we solve, it's going to make everything else easier or go away.
44:41Oh, it's now in the coaching session.
44:44I'm thinking.
44:45Yeah.
44:45You may have wanted to add more, but it sparked a question.
44:51And again, I've said this twice.
44:53It's like, I don't think I've said it twice in five years of my interviews, but I'm not argumentative.
44:59But, and this is not an argumentative thing.
45:01Yeah.
45:02I'm thinking when I think of a coach or consultant, whatever terms you may use, mentor, I've had many.
45:09And they're always been great in terms of taking me from where I am to, to improving and being better in a particular area of my, my business life.
45:22I've, I've gotten to where I am because of amazing mentors, coaches, consultants.
45:28And, but in the workaday world, in the business world, where you're, somebody's paying you to do the job, that Mr. Nice Guy, it's just not there.
45:40It's never been there for me.
45:41I've never seen it there.
45:42It's always been, you got to do the job or you're, or you're out.
45:45Not, not ever that tough.
45:47And I'm thinking as a takeaway to this episode, I'm just kind of throwing my thoughts out together is, what about this, do we focus on that human element more, Chris?
45:59Is that what we're saying is, is, is, as I used, as I used to call it, the European mentality in Europe, the difference between a European and American, in my opinion, is Europe, in Europe, you say, hey, how are you?
46:12And in America, you go, give me that, or I want this in the window, or how much is this?
46:18It's, it's a, and that's why in Paris, you go to Paris and you say, give me this, whoever it is, I don't care who it is, this thick steel wall comes down and that's it.
46:30You're ostracized and they don't, they don't, they don't treat you well.
46:33But in Paris, you walk up and I don't care how busy the waiter or waitress is.
46:37And if you say, how are you, I've literally seen them just stop and change and treat me like a person.
46:46Great service.
46:46I've had the most best time ever in some of the worst areas just because you have to treat a people as a people, as a person.
46:55So maybe a little long-winded or not, but I'm saying there's this human element in it, and yet we've got to balance it.
47:02And I'm trying to think of like, how do we do that in work?
47:04How do we do that in business?
47:07So I would suggest that, yes, we need to balance it.
47:10It's neither as difficult or as complicated as people like to make it.
47:13This transactional nature of what's going on.
47:16In other words, that you have to do X amount of work in X amount of time with X amount of quality.
47:22And my job is to make sure you get that done.
47:24And if my approach is transactional, then you're like my guy in Florida.
47:28You're ideally suited to compete in a market that no longer exists because no one's going to tolerate that.
47:33And what you're going to do is get worse and worse returns.
47:35You're going to have to – I call it the tell-yell-sell cycle, right?
47:39So I tell you what I need you to do, and you don't do it.
47:42So I try to sell you on it because I read a motivational book on how I should care about my people.
47:46And then finally, I just start yelling at you.
47:49And I just cycle through that.
47:50And then that doesn't work.
47:51So then I won't talk to you for three days or two weeks or until the next thing.
47:54And then I come back.
47:54I'm like, hey, come on, Tony.
47:56We've got to talk.
47:56I need you to do better.
47:57And then that doesn't work.
47:58So then I'm going to sell you on it again because I went to a new workshop for leadership on how I'm supposed to care about my people.
48:03And then when that doesn't work, I go back to yelling at you because I'm just pissed off.
48:07Because all of it is transactional.
48:09Your whole value to me is did you get this job done in this amount of time with this amount of quality for this price?
48:16Other than that, you don't matter.
48:17And I can tell that.
48:18And if that's the case, then give me an AI manager because he can do that just as well, probably better than you because he'll give me better information.
48:26And it's not getting rid of results.
48:29It's getting results through people, by relationships, because of trust, earned through behavior, and not demanded because of position.
48:40And that's where I think the challenge comes in is that if I'm really committed to results, then I need to make you feel seen, heard, and understood.
48:51I need to build those skills in you that I talked about.
48:54That's the role of a leader is to build those five skills through a series of interactions over the course of time in you that you should become a better human being.
49:02I call it the best test.
49:03If you work for me and after five years you drink more, smoke more, you're 20 pounds overweight and getting divorced, that's a wake.
49:11If after five years of working for me you solve problems faster, you're more authentic, you're more able to take risks, you're willing to say what you think on your mind and bring it up in a meeting and risk getting in trouble and getting back, you'll go through, that's also a wake.
49:25And we don't tend to look at the impact of our behavior as a leader on the performance of our people and own that I'm the one that created that.
49:36We just think we need better people.
49:39And that's where there's so much challenge that gets in, that my job as a leader is to build enough behavioral flexibility that I can meet you where you're at without judgment and take you to a better place.
49:50Lots to ponder on, lots to think about, very, very stimulating and invigorating, both, both together at the same time.
50:00I loved it.
50:01Once again, this is Chris Hunsiker talking about leading beyond tradition.
50:05We spoke about how to build teams that thrive in the AI age.
50:09We maybe put a scratch on the surface, maybe not.
50:12Go to chrishunsiker.com, learn about him.
50:16He's got some great books out there, guys.
50:17Chris, just thank you so much.
50:20I really enjoyed it.
50:21I'm going to listen to this again.
50:22Lots.
50:24It doesn't sound like there's a lot, but once you get into the topic and what we're going, it goes very, very deep.
50:31And I really appreciate you sharing that with us.
50:35Thank you so much, sir.
50:37My pleasure.
50:37You have a great day.
50:38And thank you for inviting me on.
50:39This was a great conversation.
50:41I appreciate it.
50:41Thank you very, very much.
50:43Well, there you go, guys.
50:44There you go.
50:45There you go.
50:45Wow, wow, wow.
50:46So much good advice.
50:48You know what?
50:50I think Chris, well, should write a book.
50:53Just be human, you know.
50:55And you're speaking to humans.
50:57You're talking to humans.
50:58You're being human.
51:00And it may be kind of silly, maybe a little facetious.
51:03But I think that kind of point of view, when you realize who you're dealing with, it may help a lot in the workaday world.
51:10So whatever position you are in or have at your company, when you realize that you're dealing with people who are trying to get something done, even though they may not seem like it.
51:20And if they, you know, don't seem like it, it could be that that's what AI or some book or some instruction is telling them.
51:28And sometimes you're driving down the wrong road or the wrong course.
51:31You just have to look a little correction.
51:33So sometimes just the simple corrections will do it.
51:36But you know what, guys?
51:37Check out more about Chris and what he's saying.
51:39And do me a favor.
51:40If you like this, share this with your friends.
51:43Tell them about Chris.
51:44Tell them about AI versus people.
51:47That's me.
51:48That's not what Chris says.
51:49But that's kind of the way I'm looking at it.
51:51Tell them about what he's been through and how he's really put the finger on what it takes to improve in the world today and how to adapt with what's going on.
52:02And guys, you know this wherever you're at.
52:04Please follow the show.
52:05It helps to bring more amazing guests to you.
52:07It's free to you and it helps us get more guests.
52:10All right.
52:10Let's use this and let's help you move on your journey to success.
52:14Thanks.
52:15Remember, just take action.
52:16Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds.
52:22Sow good seeds.
52:24Do good deeds.
52:25And I'll see you on the next episode.
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