- 3 days ago
Adam Rosen is the founder of EOC Works, where he helps entrepreneurs rethink how they communicate, connect, and grow through modern outreach. His work focuses on clarity, intention, and building real relationships in a digital-first world. This conversation explores how thoughtful communication—not louder marketing—can open doors, build trust, and create sustainable growth for business leaders.
What You’ll Learn
• Why most outreach fails before the message is even written
• How clarity and intention separate meaningful communication from noise
• The mindset shift entrepreneurs need to communicate value effectively
• How to follow up professionally without being pushy
• Where AI fits—and where it doesn’t—in human connection
• How modern outreach can support freedom, focus, and scalable growth
About Adam Rosen
Adam Rosen is the founder of EOC Works, a company dedicated to helping entrepreneurs and business owners improve outbound communication through clarity-driven cold email strategies. His approach emphasizes human connection, ethical outreach, and systems that support both business growth and personal freedom.
Sponsors & Partners
• Imagine you’re a business owner relying on a dozen different software programs to run your company — each one more complicated than the last. Odoo solves that by bringing CRM, accounting, HR, marketing, inventory, and more into a single, simple, scalable platform. 👉 Streamline everything with Odoo at odoo.com.
• For sponsorship opportunities, email ad-sales@libsyn.com.
Resources & Links Mentioned
1 Connect with Adam Rosen: https://eocworks.com
2 🎧 Listen on Apple: https://tonydurso.com/apple
3 🎵 Tony’s Music: https://tonydurso.com/music
4 📧 Join the Newsletter: https://tonydurso.com/news
5 🎥 Watch the Video: https://tonydurso.com/videos
Tony’s Closing Words
Use this and let’s help you Move on YOUR Journey to Success!
Just Take Action. – Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds and join me on the next episode.
cold email best practices, outbound lead generation strategy, how to write effective cold emails, business communication skills for entrepreneurs, building trust through email outreach, B2B cold email strategy, scaling outreach without spamming, follow-up email strategy, AI tools for cold email, modern sales communication, ethical outbound marketing, how entrepreneurs generate leads today, email outreach systems, relationship-based lead generation, business growth through communication, cold email vs spam, personalization at scale, entrepreneur outreach strategy, inbound vs outbound leads, digital relationship building
What You’ll Learn
• Why most outreach fails before the message is even written
• How clarity and intention separate meaningful communication from noise
• The mindset shift entrepreneurs need to communicate value effectively
• How to follow up professionally without being pushy
• Where AI fits—and where it doesn’t—in human connection
• How modern outreach can support freedom, focus, and scalable growth
About Adam Rosen
Adam Rosen is the founder of EOC Works, a company dedicated to helping entrepreneurs and business owners improve outbound communication through clarity-driven cold email strategies. His approach emphasizes human connection, ethical outreach, and systems that support both business growth and personal freedom.
Sponsors & Partners
• Imagine you’re a business owner relying on a dozen different software programs to run your company — each one more complicated than the last. Odoo solves that by bringing CRM, accounting, HR, marketing, inventory, and more into a single, simple, scalable platform. 👉 Streamline everything with Odoo at odoo.com.
• For sponsorship opportunities, email ad-sales@libsyn.com.
Resources & Links Mentioned
1 Connect with Adam Rosen: https://eocworks.com
2 🎧 Listen on Apple: https://tonydurso.com/apple
3 🎵 Tony’s Music: https://tonydurso.com/music
4 📧 Join the Newsletter: https://tonydurso.com/news
5 🎥 Watch the Video: https://tonydurso.com/videos
Tony’s Closing Words
Use this and let’s help you Move on YOUR Journey to Success!
Just Take Action. – Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds and join me on the next episode.
cold email best practices, outbound lead generation strategy, how to write effective cold emails, business communication skills for entrepreneurs, building trust through email outreach, B2B cold email strategy, scaling outreach without spamming, follow-up email strategy, AI tools for cold email, modern sales communication, ethical outbound marketing, how entrepreneurs generate leads today, email outreach systems, relationship-based lead generation, business growth through communication, cold email vs spam, personalization at scale, entrepreneur outreach strategy, inbound vs outbound leads, digital relationship building
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00Now, this isn't about spam or mass marketing.
00:03It's about learning how to communicate value, lead with intention, and scale relationships
00:09in the digital world that we're in.
00:12It's all about relevance.
00:14Marketing at the end of the day is all about being relevant.
00:18And part of being relevant is understanding what does somebody in this position...
00:30Welcome back to the podcast, Entrepreneurs in a World of Noise and Automation.
00:40How do you truly connect?
00:41You know, today we're diving into a skill that every business leader needs, not to sell more,
00:49but to communicate better.
00:51My guest, Adam Rosen, he built EcoWorks to help founders master the art of outreach,
00:57crafting clear, honest messages that open doors, build trust, and start meaningful conversations.
01:04Now, this isn't about spam or mass marketing.
01:08It's about learning how to communicate value, lead with intention, and scale relationships
01:14in the digital world that we're in.
01:17So whether you're trying to grow your business, build partnerships, or simply be heard in the
01:22crowd, this episode will show you how clarity, consistency, and genuine connection can transform
01:29your results.
01:30Sounds good?
01:31We're going to explore the mindset behind powerful communication and how to turn your
01:36message into your greatest growth tool.
01:39Check this out.
01:40Let's begin.
01:40Let's bring them on.
01:42Hi, Adam.
01:42Welcome to the Tony D'Erso Show.
01:44Tony, thanks for having me.
01:45It's a pleasure to have you.
01:47We're all looking forward to learning about outreach that converts.
01:50More specifically, how to build sales, global sales, how to scale with newsletters.
01:57We all, almost all of us have a newsletter, and we want to learn how to turn cold leads
02:02into warm clients.
02:03And I mentioned just such a little brief of a bit about you.
02:06Can you kind of share your backstory?
02:08How did it all start with, how did it all start for you, Adam?
02:12Yes, I never held a true nine to five job.
02:16I ended up starting my first business about three weeks before I graduated from my MBA
02:21program in college.
02:23I started my first business, had that company for about five years.
02:27I sold that business back in 2019 and then started my current company, email outreach
02:33company, about four and a half years ago now.
02:36That's really something.
02:37So now, so you started your email outreach company.
02:40So now I'm curious, how did you discover that power of what we call cold email?
02:45The people didn't know you, but they welcomed your communication.
02:49What made you realize that that would be like, was a really cool or good tool or worthwhile
02:54tool and connection and a business model?
02:59How did that all happen?
03:02Yeah.
03:02So it's funny, like in the probably 943 different business ideas I've always had, email outreach
03:09company was actually not one of them.
03:11Very much started based on a need and just what we always did a good job of.
03:16So during my first tech startup, we were able to get some of the biggest brands in the world.
03:22Like think Bank of America, Amazon, Apple, Goldman, Disney, you name it.
03:28And we got them as customers.
03:29Now we didn't get those customers from having a lot of connections in the space or from some
03:34big inflated marketing budget.
03:36We got them just by being scrappy and cold emailing them.
03:40Even how I raised money in my first startup, how I found the company that bought my startup
03:45was through cold email.
03:46How I got over 100,000 students to sign up on our technology was also primarily through
03:53cold email.
03:54So I saw the power firsthand of what cold email can do for you if you do it right.
03:59So when I sold that company back in 2019, one of the things I started to do was advising
04:05different startups.
04:06And one of those startups I was advising said, Hey, Adam, my head of sales is really struggling
04:12to get meetings on the books.
04:14Is there anything you could do to help?
04:16So long story short, I had a conversation with her.
04:19I saw what gap they had when it comes to their cold email systems.
04:23I called up my co-founder of my previous startup.
04:26I said, Hey, Pranam, I think we can help these guys out.
04:29Do you want to do something together on this?
04:31And then four and a half years later, over 150 customers later, including big fortune 500s,
04:37we've been building out email programs within companies to make sure they can get results
04:41through cold outbound.
04:42Adam, the first thought, the literal first thought that comes through my mind, that probably
04:49comes through 90% of the audience, and came through my mind when I first ran into your
04:55information is, isn't this, can I say that word?
04:59S-P-A-M?
04:59Is this like wrong?
05:01Is there something wrong?
05:02But as a business, businesses want information or guidance or help that would help them with
05:10their business.
05:11I sure, I surely do.
05:13It's not a bad thing to email, but somehow we've been predisposed, programmed that to
05:22email somebody that you don't know is wrong.
05:25And I probably will ask more about that later.
05:28But the first thing is like, oh, wait, because when I told somebody, hey, I'm going to interview
05:32Adam Rosen about cold emails, like, you know, alarms.
05:36So I'm going to ask more about it later, but can you kind of dispel that, let's call it
05:41a myth?
05:43Yeah, it's one of those things that cold email in the marketing world gets a bad reputation.
05:48And I don't blame it.
05:51You know, we all have horrible emails in our inbox with unthoughtful emails at best or malicious
05:58emails at worst.
06:00So we all have this negative experience because, man, our inbox are filled with crap.
06:05So I don't blame people for having that perception.
06:09There is a fine line between being spammy and being a thoughtful marketer.
06:14And the reality is when it comes to email, the biggest, best, most well-known brands are
06:21doing cold email.
06:22So if they are, then every other brand that isn't as well-known should be doing it too.
06:28However, just like with anything in life, it's about how you do it and can you do it
06:32effectively?
06:33And the reality is in the marketing world, there's going to be people who love and appreciate
06:38your marketing if you do it well.
06:40But then to that same marketing that others love and appreciate, there's going to be somebody
06:46else on the other side of it who is going to think it's the worst thing and they're upset
06:50with you and they don't like it.
06:51Like, for example, in between selling my startup and then my first startup and then starting
06:56email outreach company, I was running land development projects in the Northeast.
07:01So I'd buy big chunks of land, I'd chop it up and sell it.
07:04And I would do a lot of advertising on Meta, primarily on Facebook.
07:08And a lot of times it was just me on the property with my iPhone and saying, hey, look how beautiful
07:13the Hudson River is here.
07:14Come check it out.
07:15Let me know if you want to show it.
07:17For the most part, people would be very nice and respectful.
07:20But I remember, and this was during the COVID times, there was somebody who had a not the
07:25most pleasant comment on my post and basically said, hey, I hope you get COVID and some bad
07:30things happened to you to say it nicely.
07:32My approach has always been to just, you know, be kind, kill it with kindness.
07:36And long story short, we had a back and forth conversation and the gentleman said, hey,
07:42man, I'm really sorry.
07:44You seem like a really nice guy.
07:45Someone I grab a beer with.
07:46I was just having a bad day and I just wanted to take it out on somebody.
07:49And the reason why I bring that story up is no matter what marketing you do or anything
07:53you do in life, there's going to be going to be people who love you and there's going
07:57to be people who don't.
07:59And a lot of times the people that don't, it's something else that is unrelated to you
08:04that they are going through in your, in their life.
08:06So try not to be so offended by it or upset by it.
08:10Everyone's got their own life that they're dealing with.
08:11So anyway, that's my long-winded rant about email and knowing that if you do it well,
08:16my Slack channel of memorable responses, people that say how great our emailing is, is a heck
08:21of a lot more full than people who are saying nasty things to us.
08:24You know, I, I, I have my opinion on some of this and that is, first of all, some of
08:32the spam that we get is like, I get 20 emails a day about my plumbing.
08:37It's to the same email address.
08:39It's the same email or similarly put.
08:41That's just like an overload.
08:43I never asked for it.
08:45I don't want it.
08:45And yet I'm barraged about my plumbing or about insurance or about something that has
08:50nothing to do with anything.
08:51And it's not just one, it's a barrage.
08:55And so I think that when somebody gets ticked off about spam or whatever, or cold outreach,
09:02it's because now they have somebody that they can speak with.
09:06They have somebody that they can talk to because you're open and receptive.
09:09Because if you try to unsubscribe from those spam emails, you get even more spam back and
09:17they'll continue to spam you because they know now that you are active on your email and
09:23the reverse, and I kind of the reverse, but another angle is because they know you or who
09:31you are and, or that you welcome communication there, you're now the outlet for that anger.
09:39For example, I once in, in the past 30, 30 odd years, I've emailed somebody that I personally
09:46know, shook hands, chatted with twice about something.
09:51I, both times I got really nasty messages back saying, why don't spam?
09:57And just, I was like really bad, almost like you got with the COVID.
10:01It's like, what?
10:02So, so if you know somebody and you know that they may be interested in something or their
10:08business may be, uh, you would think that that is, um, it's okay to communicate them.
10:15But some people just are, I guess, naturally angry anyway.
10:20So it's kind of really, really weird.
10:22So, um, what makes it, well, I'm, I'm going to ask this in just one moment.
10:29First, I want to let the audience know we're speaking with Adam Rosen.
10:32We're talking about outreach that converts.
10:34We're talking about how to build your sales, how to scale with newsletters that's coming
10:38up and how to turn warm leads or cold leads into warm clients.
10:43And you can find them at echo works.com.
10:46E-C-O-W-O-R-K-S.com.
10:49E-C-O-W-O-R-K-S.com.
10:50E-O-C.
10:52Do I have that backwards?
10:54A lot of people, a lot of people call it echo works.
10:57It's actually E-O-C-W-O-R-K-S.com short for email outreach company.
11:01Email outreach company.
11:04And you know what?
11:04When I first saw it, I thought it was a typo.
11:07I thought it was echo works.
11:08I don't, it's my fault.
11:10That's all right.
11:11It's, it's a good little blooper to just lead into, um, mass emails.
11:16And, and, and, and we talked about whether you know somebody or you don't know somebody,
11:21whether you send them a ton of emails or not, you're open, you're vulnerable.
11:25Let's kind of talk about this.
11:28Let's, let's, you can address that.
11:30Cause I also want to talk about what makes a person answer or respond to that email as
11:37opposed to prop positively, as opposed to negatively.
11:42It's all about relevance.
11:44Marketing at the end of the day is all about being relevant.
11:47And part of being relevant is understanding what does somebody in this position need?
11:55What are they, what problems are they facing?
11:57What solutions are they looking for?
11:59Now you're not going to be able to get everybody because just cause you are a director of talent
12:04acquisition at a company with a thousand to 10,000 employees doesn't mean that everyone's
12:09going to have the same problem.
12:10Of course not.
12:11However, if you truly understand your solution, if you truly understand your ICP, your ideal
12:17customer profile, and the problems that they most likely are facing, then you can communicate
12:22that message at scale effectively.
12:24But it has to be relevant to them because people can see right through it.
12:28They can see when you're just throwing something against the wall and sending out a prayer versus
12:33they can see when you really deeply understand the solution to a problem that they may be facing
12:39and communicating it in a way that's easy for them to read and digest.
12:44Like none of us are going to read a five paragraph email, probably if our own mother sends it to
12:49us, let alone if it's some random person, we're going to be skimming through it.
12:54It's like with a resume, you got five seconds to get your point across on why this person
12:58should hire you.
12:59Same idea with a cold email.
13:01So you got to get to the point quickly and you have to show them why it's relevant and give
13:06them a reason to read the next line.
13:09And then read the line after that and read the line after that.
13:11But it all starts with relevance.
13:14All right.
13:14I'm thinking with this and I'm thinking, okay, how do I build trust?
13:19Okay.
13:20I'm not going to send five paragraphs.
13:21I get that.
13:22How does my short little simple message, how can I build that trust with this person?
13:27And I haven't met the person, but I know that they're a business and that's allowed to email
13:33a business.
13:34Yeah.
13:34So there's a few different approaches to take when it comes to email.
13:37One of which is very complex.
13:40And if you're not an expert in this technology, don't do it.
13:43But there's tools out there like clay, for example, it's a phenomenal tool.
13:48Basically, it's a data enrichment tool.
13:49If you do it right, it will seem like you just spent an hour and a half researching this
13:55company, searching them online.
13:57You know everything about them and you're tying your solution into their problem based
14:02on their digital footprint.
14:04It's phenomenal.
14:05If you can do it well, 95% of the people that use it don't use it well.
14:08So it ends up having the adverse effect.
14:11So that's one end of it.
14:12The other end of it is just keep it short and sweet and focus on these few things.
14:18Purpose.
14:19What's the purpose of your email?
14:21What's the problem you solve?
14:23What's your solution?
14:24What's your social proof?
14:26And then what's your call to action?
14:27Hey, do you have 10 minutes to chat about this?
14:29If you could just focus on those basics and keep it to four to five sentences tops, that'll
14:34at least get your foot in the door in the email world.
14:36And then when you want to get advanced and have a lot of fun with this, that's when you
14:40get into the more personalized world through using tools like clay.
14:43Just know it's much more complex and not for the amateur.
14:47All right.
14:47So if we can communicate in our email that we know something about the company, something
14:54important, not just their name and who they are or whatever, that can help bring a little
15:00bit more trust because they go, okay, well, this person knows something about me.
15:05That brings more trust.
15:08And this is, in fact, separate.
15:10But when I get pitched for people to be on my show, a number of them know enough about
15:18my show that gets my attention right away.
15:21They start with, here's information about your show, what you've done, who you've interviewed
15:26last or some recent interview, what was stated about it.
15:32And then here's a fit for you.
15:34And I'm getting some of those.
15:35And believe it or not, I read those.
15:37I read those myself.
15:39And here's a person that knows about my show and is interested because they have some, a
15:44client or a prospect, a referral that they think would be good.
15:48As opposed to some media company out there saying, John Doe just wrote a book about, you
15:55know, how I struggled in the desert for 30 days and became a millionaire or whatever,
15:59whatever.
16:01It doesn't quite hit the metrics of my show right away because they don't know anything
16:06about it.
16:06So as a takeaway, I'm getting right now, communicating something about that company right off the bat
16:16helps to build that trust.
16:17I like that.
16:19And make sure it's something too, that isn't so obvious.
16:22Like when I get things in my inbox, like, Hey, I saw you worked with company name because
16:26it's a case study on my website.
16:28It's just lazy personalization or, Hey, I saw you were on this podcast.
16:32It's lazy personalization versus for example, like my co-founder was running a demo with me
16:38because he oversees our whole technical side of the house.
16:40So he was like, watch this.
16:42And he put my name in there, like, as if I'm a recipient for one of these emails and the
16:46research it did, when it broke it down in the email, it said, Hey, I, I, I, I heard
16:52that you got over half of your 150 customers through cold email.
16:56And I just posted about this on LinkedIn about a week ago, but this was before I posted about
17:00it.
17:00And I've only mentioned that maybe once or twice on one of the podcasts I was on where
17:05it's, if I got that email, I would think, how the heck did they know that?
17:08Like, when did I say that?
17:10Cause it's not like it's a publicly available thing.
17:12It's not like I'm like putting out my website.
17:14It's not like I, at that time posted on my LinkedIn about it, like wherever the data was,
17:19wherever it was crawling to get that data was pretty impressive versus, Hey, I see you
17:24are the co-founder CEO of email outreach company.
17:28Hey, I see you work with tomorrow.io.
17:30Hey, I saw you were on this podcast.
17:32Like that's stuff that you could have done three or four years ago.
17:35It's just, I'd rather not have any personalization and just get to the point.
17:39But if you could do it well, you want the level of personalization where it wows people.
17:44How do you create that wow factor?
17:45It's very possible now, but it's just not easy to do right now.
17:48I think that, uh, when we read something positive about our company right away, it helps bring
17:54in that interest.
17:56Uh, it just seems to work that way, but let's go deeper in this.
18:00There's a mindset too.
18:01It's not just, Hey, Adam, you, uh, you've gotten 150 of your clients through cold reach
18:07email says Tony.
18:08And then he goes, Oh, let's keep reading what Tony said.
18:11There's, there's, there's a way to communicate it.
18:13There's, there's some value that I'm giving you where in that email correspondence you go.
18:18This has got some value for me.
18:22Yeah.
18:22So the way I look, there's people that will try to just give value in an email.
18:28I think that's great.
18:29I think that's more newsletter side.
18:31So I run a over a dozen, probably a dozen and a half internal newsletters alone, not even
18:36counting our customer newsletters that we build for them.
18:39And those newsletters are built around giving value.
18:42Whether it's my email marketing newsletter with almost 70,000 subscribers on it, a sales newsletter
18:48we have a CFO related newsletter.
18:50We have even a golf newsletter.
18:52I love golf.
18:53So I created a golf newsletter and that's about giving value on, you know, golf tips, et cetera.
18:58So in terms of giving value, I think that's much more valuable on the newsletter side.
19:03It's more branding.
19:03Number one thought leadership.
19:05Number two on the cold email side.
19:07The way I look at it is there's about 11 different problems that I face as a business owner.
19:13And there's probably more than that.
19:15You know, we all have problems we want to have solved.
19:17If somebody could sneak into your inbox today, Tony, and say, Hey, I can solve this problem.
19:22And here's why you should trust me to do it.
19:24Are you open to taking 10 minutes of your valuable time to chat with me?
19:27I'm sure you'd be like, yeah, let's do it.
19:29I've been wanting to solve that problem.
19:31You seem like you're a reputable source.
19:33Let's see if you could do it for me.
19:35So that's the approach I take in cold email is every business has a problem they want to solve.
19:41Many problems they want to solve.
19:43That problem could be one I can solve for them.
19:46My job is to show it in as simple and clear of a way as possible to that prospect, why we are worth 10 minutes of their time to get on a call, to share how we might be able to solve that problem for them.
19:59I'm not trying to blow them away and give them all the best advice in the world.
20:03That's what my newsletter is for.
20:05For cold email, it's, you have a problem.
20:07We have a solution.
20:08Do you want to chat about it?
20:10Okay.
20:11Okay.
20:12And we're talking about sending a lot of communications.
20:15We're of the mindset.
20:17I mean, who isn't?
20:19There's AI.
20:20Everything is automated.
20:21The more automated we think, the more free and easy our life is, the more luxurious things are, the more income we make.
20:29We, we, we, we're believers that we need to automate and, but computers, AI, they're not necessarily personable.
20:40And yet we want to remain and be authentic and be real.
20:43So it's, it's like a dichotomy here.
20:46You want to send out a lot of communications, but you want to show up as a real person and, and, and be taken seriously, not just some spam spammer, whatever, trying to send you 20 emails a day telling you about that they can fix your plumbing.
21:00That doesn't need to be fixed.
21:02You know, so how do we do that?
21:04Do you, you know, how, how do you do that?
21:06The irony is now is the level of personalization relevance that you could do today in 2025, even though it is through tools like AI powered by humans, of course.
21:17It's not even in the same universe as what I used to do in the first two and a half years of having this startup in my first five years of building my first tech startup.
21:28It was just high first name.
21:30Here's a blanket email.
21:32And if you're interested, let's talk.
21:33It was very simple.
21:34It wasn't personalized much other than, Hey, you fit this ICP criteria.
21:40Now, the level of personalization, it really feels like we did our homework on them and it either becomes either one, thank you for doing your due diligence.
21:51Like you've really looked at my company or two, you are really good at AI and either way I tip my cap to you, but the level of relevance you can get to today is again, almost
22:02unrecognizable than what it used to be when AI wasn't a thing.
22:06But in order to your point, Tony, in order to use AI right, you can't just press a button and just sit back, relax and sip a cocktail and, you know, wait for the meetings and the money to come through.
22:17It needs to be powered by humans.
22:19It has to have that human touch.
22:21If not, we're all going to get the same crappy emails that again, are sitting in every single one of our inboxes right now.
22:27Yeah.
22:28One thing about AI that I've run into so far is it just cannot replicate a real person.
22:35If I can use the wording that way without AI getting mad, I call this real people.
22:41It just can't.
22:42And I've interviewed one of the foremost AI experts in the world four or five years ago.
22:49He said it'll never replace a human.
22:53It just can't.
22:53I mean, some of the answers that AI provides in when you do a search, it just they just don't it doesn't always get it, though it is getting better and better.
23:03So AI, while AI may give a suggestion, here's this, here's what you can send out for an email.
23:11And I've I've tried it.
23:12You know, what would I say to this?
23:14It's like it's OK.
23:16It's sort of like a starting point.
23:18And then you've got to fix it, fine tune it and make it better.
23:21But just putting the AI out of communication by itself doesn't always sink in.
23:30And I think that by trial and error, you'll find out that you'll get more results by by that personal touch.
23:37There's just things that it just doesn't doesn't know.
23:40And it's just because it's not programmed or it just doesn't know everything about you or your business.
23:45This is not something I think that they're meant to know.
23:48But with that is, all right, I send out these communications, which I make sure I put the personal touch.
23:56I make sure that I know about the company and give it a good lead in so that Adam here, Adam Rosen knows.
24:02I looked into your company and I really like I have something that I think could help you.
24:06And he reads it.
24:08And then I send one email and then I don't send another one.
24:11I don't follow up.
24:12Some people like me, I raise my hand.
24:15I don't like to push people.
24:16I figure if you're really interested, if you really want it, and I know this is contrary to everything we've talked about on my show, put my hand over the mic.
24:26But I still don't like to be pushy.
24:28You know, there's too many people that can use my products or what I have to offer that I don't have to be pushy.
24:36Now, I'm not trying to be arrogant or egotistical.
24:38I just somehow don't like to bother people.
24:42But yet there is a professional protocol without going past a point where you're overbearing.
24:50And how do you see that?
24:52In a lot of ways, I agree.
24:56Like for me, and I lead the sales for my business.
25:00After a call, you know, I'll send the follow up with whatever is required, pricing, et cetera.
25:04And I very, I don't like to follow up either.
25:07It's like, hey, you either want to do this or you don't.
25:09Like, I don't want to push you.
25:10Now, on the flip side, though, there's a major power in following up, especially when it comes to email.
25:16So there are times where I'll see an email and I go, this is interesting.
25:20This is actually something I would want to have a conversation with this person about to see if they can solve my problem.
25:25But for whatever reason, I don't respond to it or save it.
25:29And then I'll think back two weeks later.
25:31Oh, crap.
25:32Who is that person that reached out about this thing?
25:34How do I find them?
25:35I don't know where to find it.
25:37And if they don't follow up, they don't give me a chance at it.
25:39The amount of customers that we have gotten or our customers have gotten because of a follow up email
25:45is we're not talking like thousands of dollars or tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue.
25:51Like we're talking seven figure plus because of the follow up.
25:55The amount of people that when it's right will say, thank you for following up.
26:00Yes, let's talk tomorrow, whenever the date is.
26:03So much of the power, especially when it comes to email, is in the follow up.
26:08If you don't follow up, you don't give yourself a chance.
26:11Like we did.
26:12Now our sequences are much tighter.
26:14We only do a three point sequence.
26:16So one primary email and then two follow ups.
26:19We used to do a nine point sequence.
26:22About 20% of our emails or meetings booked would come on that last email.
26:26On average, it took about four and a half emails to get a meeting booked.
26:30So about five emails to even book one meeting.
26:33So, so much of the power in email is doing the follow up.
26:36If you don't follow up, you're just not giving yourself a chance even to be successful.
26:41But the key is how do you follow up in a respectful way where if they're not interested, no problem.
26:47I'll unsubscribe you.
26:48I won't reach out to you again.
26:49But if you are interested, I'd love to have a conversation with you.
26:53I like that.
26:54I like that.
26:54And I think that's absolutely the perfect way to go about it because the busy executive doesn't necessarily read that first email, but they'll see it.
27:03They'll see it again if it's done respectfully.
27:06And now do you, when you do that, do you use AI in doing that?
27:09Do you have AI assist you in that follow up or is that all done by humans or how does that work?
27:16No, I mean, we're sending a few million emails a month.
27:19My team is small.
27:20We only have 17 employees.
27:22Like it's a small company.
27:23And if we were, we couldn't manually send everything.
27:26So it's all done through powering AI.
27:29So it knows exactly what to say.
27:30So it sounds like a human, but this is all automated.
27:33And then when somebody responds, they're removed from our sequences.
27:36They don't get any more emails from us, but it's all automated.
27:38The beauty of the technology, especially today, it's so powerful where if you just know how to use it, scaling your outreach is not what it used to be.
27:47So it's all about really knowing how to use the AI.
27:50It's something that you don't think 10 years ago we could have been able to do this way?
27:56No, not even close.
27:57I mean, like we used to do mail.
27:58So when I first started in the email world, I would one by one copy, paste, send, copy, paste, send, copy, paste, send.
28:05Then one of our advisors was like, hey, there's this tool.
28:07I forgot the name of it now.
28:09It was called like Streak or something.
28:11This is where you could do a mail merge.
28:12And it was basically creating a bunch of spreadsheets and then doing a mail merge, then manually removing stuff.
28:17It was a headache.
28:18But no, today, I mean, it's pretty remarkable what you could do from an automation and technology side, but again, from an AI and personalization side, like it is remarkable if you can prompt it.
28:32Like we have dozens and dozens of rows and columns telling it who to do research on, how to do the research, how to write the copy with all these technologies under these tech.
28:45Like it's pretty freaking cool and complex if you can do it right, but it's just really hard.
28:50Like it's just not an easy technology to use.
28:53But if you can do it right, man, the stuff you can do in 2025 is pretty exciting.
28:57It's very interesting.
28:59You made me hark back to the year 2000.
29:02Email, the internet was very, very brand new.
29:05And I ran into people cold, cold on the streets, ran into people, got their email addresses.
29:12And then I BCC, blind carbon copy.
29:18I did BCC just, hey, in six months, I raised $3.25 million for a first startup.
29:25So it was all BCC and spreadsheets.
29:28I totally remember.
29:29It absolutely worked.
29:30It was really interesting because you would send email to yourself, but just BCC everybody.
29:36I remember on that note, one of my first lends into colding, well, two things.
29:42One, I was running an entrepreneur program at my school.
29:45I helped start it up my senior year.
29:48That's what led me to eventually starting my one-year MBA program where I kept running the
29:52Center for Entrepreneurship and then getting my MBA before I started my business.
29:56But during my senior year when I was running that program, I wanted Mark Cuban to speak at
30:00one of our events.
30:01I remember emailing him and I was shocked.
30:03He politely declined, but he got back to me.
30:06I was like, oh, that's pretty cool.
30:07Like Mark Cuban will respond to me via email.
30:11But I remember we had a big event and my advisor, she was like, hey, Adam, can you reach
30:16out to all these people that went to our event to thank them?
30:19And these were like politicians, business leaders in the space, all this stuff.
30:22I didn't know at the time what BCC was.
30:25So I remember I just blasted it out and all these big name emails were all for everyone to
30:31view.
30:31And it was my first experience of, okay, I got to learn BCC.
30:36And then eventually BCC turned into mail merge and then mail merge turned into what we're
30:40doing today.
30:41Yeah.
30:41It doesn't take maybe one or two attempts at putting people in the CC bracket or the two
30:48bracket before it explodes back at you.
30:51Never do that again.
30:53No, it's a mistake.
30:54You only need once.
30:55You only make once.
30:57Very interesting.
30:57We talked a bit about AI and how to communicate.
31:02And I think I made it clear, at least for me, it's never going to replace a human.
31:09Yet we really, really need it.
31:12What, you know, for us out there, the marketers, business people, entrepreneurs, what are good
31:18AI tools?
31:19You mentioned Clay, is that, but you also mentioned it really takes, there's a learning
31:24curve on it.
31:24Is there anything more simple that we can use for, to get out really good communications?
31:31Yeah, I'll take a different approach.
31:34One of my, actually not one of, my favorite AI tool for any marketer, any business owner,
31:40it is unbelievable.
31:43It's a tool called Lovable, lovable.dev.
31:46I think that's the website.
31:48It's a website builder.
31:49But I am not a tech person.
31:54I'm not, I'm more of a sales marketing business guy.
31:58The quality of websites or landing pages you can pump out.
32:02Basically, all you need to do is prompt in this tool, Lovable.
32:06Hey, build me a website for A, B, and C.
32:09You describe everything to a T.
32:11It'll create you a website in minutes.
32:14And then you just keep prompting it and telling it what to do and telling it what to do and
32:17telling it what to do.
32:18Some of my most beautiful websites I've created are all through Lovable.
32:21On a weekend, one of my weekend projects are me typically building different Lovable sites
32:25out for different landing pages or newsletters, media kits, you know, business ideas that
32:31I just want to throw out there and just kind of see, see if it has any legs on them.
32:35It's one of the coolest tools.
32:36And if you use that technology, you will start to see how powerful AI is and where it's going
32:44because it completely erases.
32:45I used to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for developers to build basic landing pages.
32:52And it would take so much time.
32:54I would be so reliant on them or WordPress pages, which are pretty complex or Squarespace,
32:59which doesn't look good and is pretty complex.
33:02Lovable.dev.
33:03If anyone has two hours on a weekend, play around with that site, build a landing page
33:09for yourself.
33:09You will be blown away.
33:11So that is probably my number one AI tool in the world right now.
33:15And I have a lot of fun with it pretty consistently.
33:17I appreciate that for me because I have a website that I've been working on, on and off for the
33:25past couple of years.
33:27And every time I have somebody update it, I just don't like it.
33:32And I just keep doing that.
33:34And I'm just thinking this might be a way to do it.
33:36It's just, I'm going to check that out.
33:38But I appreciate that.
33:40Yeah, I had a, I've had my personal email domain is at adamirosen.com.
33:46And I was always like, I should have some type of website that shows all the podcasts
33:49I've been on, things I've done, et cetera.
33:51You know, like a lot of times when you go on podcasts, they want to see a media kit.
33:55And I was like, when am I ever going to pay someone to do this?
33:57And I don't even know what the vision is.
33:59In a weekend, not even a weekend, in probably two or three hours on a Sunday, I had my website
34:03built out.
34:04And it's not like it's the greatest, most incredible site in the world.
34:07But it's definitely at the very least an MVP.
34:10And it's just like that for me, prompting it, throwing in some images, telling it what
34:14I want.
34:15Like it is remarkable.
34:16And it just shows where AI is going.
34:19Like the need for developers is not gone, but it's, we're not as reliant as we used to
34:24be.
34:25And anyone's business marketing minded, it's a whole new world for us if we can learn some
34:30of these technologies.
34:32I think this is a godsend now.
34:34Now, does that lovable, does it need access to your domain or it gives you the HTML code
34:40that you upload?
34:42So it's so good.
34:43Like I've already had my domain through GoDaddy.
34:46It makes it so easy to connect it with GoDaddy.
34:49If you need to buy a domain, you just connect it right there.
34:52Like it makes things so easy.
34:54If you could just follow directions, it tells you what to do.
34:57It is pretty remarkable what it can do.
35:00So any one of those ideas, you want to build a website, just go to lovable.dev.
35:04It's pretty inexpensive too.
35:06And again, it's not super difficult to learn because all you're really doing is just prompting
35:11it like you would chat GPT, just telling it what you want.
35:14Like it's pretty cool.
35:15So I really liked that.
35:17That was a great, great.
35:18Thank you on behalf of the audience and on behalf of Tony here, that was really, really
35:23good.
35:24Now, okay.
35:25So kind of back to this, we're kind of perhaps not going step by step, but we covered some
35:31key points perhaps that would come up.
35:33So we do this email outreach.
35:36We do a couple of emails, we follow up and, and, and the follow-up you found is the most
35:43key in, in, in, in, in really getting sales.
35:48I totally get it.
35:49Do we cover everything that's important on that?
35:52Because, you know, I'm looking to learn.
35:57I get follow-ups so many different ways.
36:00You know, uh, people will sometimes take the same email that the original email, and then
36:05send it back to me with some more information.
36:07And sometimes that gets my attention.
36:09Is that a good way to follow up?
36:12It can be.
36:13Yeah.
36:14We'll do that sometimes.
36:17When I want to go back to what you just said, Tony, when it comes to importance.
36:21So there's really three things when it comes to email to do it right.
36:25One of which is copy, which includes the first email, the follow-up emails.
36:29Do you want to personalize it?
36:32Do you want to just keep it short and sweet?
36:33How do you do the follow-ups?
36:35All that stuff.
36:36That's number three on the totem pole of the top three.
36:40Next thing is lists, getting high quality lists and cleaning those lists.
36:43So one, is it the right titles at the right companies?
36:47Two, is it going to be an accurate email or is it going to bounce?
36:51Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, all these providers have gotten incredibly strict with what they allow
36:57in the inbox versus spam.
36:58They don't want bad emailers using their software and they will block you, mark you a spam very easily.
37:05So you want to make sure your lists are high quality.
37:08So that's the second most important thing.
37:10The most important thing when it comes to email, though, is none of those.
37:15It is not lists.
37:15It is not copy.
37:17It is infrastructure.
37:18So what do I mean by infrastructure?
37:20You should, in 2025, and this has been the case now really since September of 2023, when Google Domains was purchased by Squarespace.
37:30That's when stuff really started to change in the email world was September of 2023.
37:35I will never forget it.
37:36I was in Sicily.
37:37I got a call from my business partner and he's like, Adam, our balance rate went from, I don't know, 1% to 50% overnight because of this.
37:44And we had to change everything we did as a business.
37:49And it's all related to infrastructure.
37:51So if anybody is listening to this podcast and you are doing any cold outbound emailing from your primary domain, please, please, please stop doing that.
38:05If you do that, there is a chance you will get marked as spam by Google, Yahoo, Microsoft.
38:11There is a good chance your emails will then go into spam.
38:14And there is even a chance that your domain will get blacklisted, which is the horror story, because if that happens, then you're in big trouble and it takes a long time to get out of it.
38:25So what do you do?
38:26You need to create all of these basically sending domains that you send your cold emails from.
38:32So back in the old days, when we would have a customer, we would create one or two domains from them and a handful maybe of inboxes we would email from.
38:40And that was okay.
38:41Now, our biggest customer, we're sending from over a thousand inboxes in about 300, 400 different domains that we have created.
38:53And the reason why is you really can't send more than 10 emails from an inbox in a day, just 10.
39:02Any more than 10 emails, there's a good chance you're going into spam and you're going to be flagged as spam.
39:07So if you have a big universe and you want to send 10,000 emails a month, 50,000 emails a month, 100,000 emails a month, the only way to do that is if you have an infrastructure built to do that.
39:20So everything when it comes to cold emails starts with infrastructure.
39:24If you don't get that right, I don't care how good your copy is or how good your lists are, you're not going to get results.
39:29I'm thinking with that.
39:32Okay.
39:32Yeah.
39:33Totally makes perfect sense.
39:37It sounds like we need a company to help handle this for us because there's a lot of moving parts that are very, very important.
39:43If we're running a good business, whatever the business is, we definitely don't want to be a spammer.
39:48We don't want, oh, because we sent out too many emails or we've sent it to a bad email address or things like that.
39:59And it's very easy to just go click and send back and say, hey, this person's bothering me.
40:04Now you've got a complaint.
40:05So there are definitely, there are definite things here that have to really be approached properly.
40:13As you're going through this, I'm thinking, well, are there times when outreach just doesn't work or is it just you've got to have these points in place for it to have a good chance of success?
40:28Yeah, there's a few ways it doesn't work.
40:30One way is if you can't get an email list, of course, like if you can't get the contact information, there's not much you could do through email.
40:37But that's, of course, very rare.
40:39There's very few industries that I could think of that you wouldn't be able to get contact information for.
40:45The other side of it, though, is if people aren't interested in what you offer, there's only so much you can do.
40:51So that's always key.
40:52And typically, though, for any business that's at product market fit stage or even closing in on product market fit stage, there's probably a pitch that can work for your audience.
41:02But you just have to figure out what that is.
41:05Now with email, though, like it's not just about getting new customers.
41:08If you want to raise money, like what you talked about earlier in 2000 when you were BCCing potential investors, if you want to get your company acquired.
41:18I was just with one of my good friends who had a nice acquisition for his business, and he was telling me how we got acquired was just from cold emailing folks.
41:26So if you want to get on that, in the beginning days when we started this company and I got on a lot of podcasts, it was from us doing cold outbound to podcast hosts who then brought me on the podcast.
41:39Email is just a way to connect person A to person B.
41:44That's all email is at the end of the day.
41:46So when you think about it, just what is person B?
41:48What do they want to get from you or somebody else?
41:50And then if you can communicate that message in a compelling enough way, email is a great source to do that.
41:57Okay.
41:57As you're saying this, I'm thinking, you know, we all, all our companies, whoever, you know, most companies, we have our email list.
42:04We have our client list.
42:06We have our prospect list.
42:08Whatever number it is, it's, of course, not enough.
42:11We want to break through that.
42:12We want to go to a higher level.
42:14And that's where it takes some finesse and some understanding of how to move into that upper bracket.
42:23Sounds like we need to really, not that I'm trying to pitch anything or sell anything, but we really need to go to a marketing company that understands all these different points to expand our company reach into a level that we've not expanded before.
42:37Otherwise, it can be troublesome for us.
42:39You know, when it comes to email now versus what it was in the past, like in the old days, it really wasn't that complicated.
42:47You get an email list, you put it into a simple mail merge system, you email from your primary domain, you blast it out, you could get some results.
42:56It really, you didn't have to, it wasn't that complex.
42:58It just was like, are you going to be scrappy and do you have the stomach to deal with it?
43:01Now I tell people though, really, you have two options in email if you want to get results, either one, become an expert or two, hire an expert.
43:11If you're not going to become an expert or hire an expert, you might as well not do it because you're going to end up wasting your time, banging your head against the wall, not getting results and wasting time and money.
43:21So those are really the two options today and beyond, just because the space does get more and more crowded, the technologies are getting more and more complex and the end user has higher expectations of you versus in the old days.
43:34Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
43:36If you're willing to spend the time to do it yourself and become the expert, otherwise there are some dangers there.
43:42No business that I know of, I mean, we're not in the business of risking our domain.
43:50Our domain has become very, very important or risking our business overall.
43:55And if we do something incorrect, we certainly don't want those complaints.
43:59So you really bring up a very good caveat in a way to doing it ourselves.
44:04It's very easy to send out a thousand emails, but the risk of getting some complaints that could impact or label you as a spammer or put you on a blacklist or something, that's very scary, especially for us business owners or entrepreneurs that have spent years and years building our business properly and reputably.
44:24So I totally get that.
44:25And as I'm going through this, I'm wondering, you know, before this, before emails, before AI, we had our protocol of communication, how to communicate.
44:37We've covered a couple of these points here in this interview, and I'm wondering, what else can you teach us about communication?
44:46Is it just that simple?
44:47We talked about finding out more about the company, communicating to them that you've done some research and you've got something good for them.
44:56Is it that simple?
44:58It seems like there's more to it.
45:00I mean, we make everything look easy, don't we?
45:03But behind the scenes, sometimes there's a lot more work and complexity than we may make it seem like.
45:13Yeah, it's funny.
45:14I always tell my co-founder, he's on the technical side, and he's really the credit for why we've been named an expert at so many of the top tools in the email world.
45:24And I always joke, I say, I have the easiest job.
45:27All I need to do is talk to people about what we do, bring people on, share the results we get for our customers.
45:33I don't have to do the whole technical side.
45:35And when I go through the technical side with them, because, of course, I need to know how to do it and how it works and all that good stuff.
45:42My mind is blown.
45:45Like, my mind, I'm like, holy mackerel.
45:47Like, this is really complex.
45:50Like, there's a lot going in here.
45:52So, yes, of course, I mean, it sounds simple.
45:54But that's the whole beauty.
45:55Like, the hardest thing in the world is to make something seem simple.
45:59And that's our job as marketers is we have to take this complex mess, whether it's contact information, enriching it, putting together a compelling pitch, engaging with the prospects when they reply to do it quickly with good templates.
46:15Because even when people respond and they say, hey, let's talk, this is interesting, or they have questions, we have a DIY product where our customers need to handle the replies.
46:25And sometimes it'll take them 14 hours to get back or their reply is confusing.
46:29Like, every little detail of the process needs to be perfect in order to get that one meeting booked.
46:35So, that's obviously what we've been perfecting now for the past four and a half years.
46:39And we're not perfect yet.
46:40There's a lot of improvement we need to continue to make.
46:43But to your point, Tony, yes, there's a lot of complexity behind the scenes.
46:47But that's the beauty of marketing.
46:48If you can do it well, it comes across as simple and effortless.
46:52And that's always the goal whenever we write these emails, book these meetings, and, of course, hopefully lead to sales.
46:57Wonderful.
46:58Once again, this is Adam Rosen.
46:59We talked about outreach that converts, how to build global sales, guys.
47:04Come on, turn your warm lead, your cold, I say it twice, turn your cold leads into warm clients and big sales.
47:11This is really, really good.
47:12Go to eocworks.com.
47:15That's eocworks.com.
47:17Check out what he has, what they do.
47:19I'm very inspired by it.
47:21You've heard this interview.
47:22There are ways to do it right and proper.
47:28And be very successful.
47:29Check that out, guys.
47:31Adam, thank you so much.
47:32This was good advice.
47:33I learned some good points here.
47:35I'm very appreciative.
47:36I just want to say it was so great to have you on.
47:39Thank you, Tony.
47:40I appreciate you having me.
47:41Well, guys, there you go.
47:43If you like this, do us a favor.
47:45Share this with your friends.
47:46Tell them about Adam and tell them about eocworks.
47:49What he's been, how it works.
47:52You can be the expert.
47:53You could do it yourself.
47:54Or you could find a company to do it.
47:56But the process works.
47:57If you want to get to your six, seven, eight digits or more, this will and can really help you.
48:04We are testaments to that.
48:06This stuff works.
48:07And, guys, wherever you're getting this, please follow the show.
48:10It helps to bring more amazing guests to you, totally free to you.
48:14It helps us grow.
48:15All right.
48:15Let's use this and let's help you move on your journey to success.
48:19Thanks.
48:20And remember, just take action.
48:22Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds.
48:28Sow good seeds.
48:29Do good deeds.
48:30And I'll see you on the next episode.
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