00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:15investigations into deaths involving law enforcement. This following the fatal shooting
00:21of three suspects during a police operation in Durantunggal, Melaka. Questions are now being
00:25asked not just about what happened that night, but about how such cases are being probed.
00:30Joining me on the show is Rajesh Nagarajan, who is a human rights lawyer and the lawyer
00:35acting for the families of the three men killed during that shooting. So Rajesh, thank you
00:41for being on the show with me today. Can I ask you at this stage, what are the family's
00:47primary concerns regarding to how the incident is being investigated?
00:51Hi, Melissa. Thank you so much for having me. Now, the family's primary concern is that
00:57this investigation risks becoming another police-controlled inquiry into police killings. This is a model
01:04that has repeatedly failed to deliver accountability. When three individuals are shot dead in a single
01:11police operation, this is no longer a matter of operational judgment. It is a matter of whether
01:16the state has unlawfully taken a human life. Now, there is deep concern that without immediate
01:22independent oversight, the investigation will prioritise self-protection of the PDRM itself. The families
01:30are merely demanding an assurance that every aspect of this operation will be examined rigorously and without
01:37bias, with outcomes capable of leading to criminal charges, and that this matter will not just be another whitewashing.
01:44Okay, so talk to me about procedures. Help us understand, when there are cases involving police use of
01:52lethal force, what SOPs apply? What investigative standards actually should apply?
01:59Okay, the problem in Malaysia is that there are hardly any SOPs when it comes to shooting and killings by the
02:07police themselves. It seems like everything is hunky-dory, everything is normal. The police who are
02:13involved in the killing, they just go right back to duty. There is no proper investigation by a neutral third-party
02:21body. There is no SOP. That is the problem. And if you look at other countries, the minute there is a police
02:27shooting, the officers involved will immediately be put on leave pending investigation. And that is the proper way. Once they have been
02:35cleared, once it has been found that this shooting is a proper shooting, it is a shooting in self-defense,
02:41then they come back to active duty. But here in Malaysia, you don't have that.
02:46Right. Okay, so in this case specifically, the Attorney General Chambers has reclassified
02:53this case, right, under the Section 302 of the Penal Code. So help me understand the process here in
03:00terms of remand. Legally speaking, should there have been an arrest made for the police officers involved?
03:10I think you can speak to any criminal lawyer. And the first thing that they will say is that the
03:15minute that a matter is classified as a Section 302 murder investigation, the first thing is the
03:20suspects will be remanded. And the remand, the first remand will usually be six to seven days,
03:26and there'll be a subsequent remand for another six to seven days, at the conclusion of which usually the
03:30suspects will be charged. But this remand is practically compulsory, it's always done. And it has to be done
03:37because this is a murder murder investigation. It's extremely serious. Lives have been lost.
03:43But in this particular situation where the perpetrators are the police themselves,
03:48no remand has been done, no arrest has been done, nothing at all.
03:53Rajesh, can I ask you why the Durian Tunggal shooting has resonated with so many Malaysians? What
03:59do you see as why Malaysians are, you know, civil society in particular, are really concerned about
04:08the way the investigations into this case is playing out?
04:13I think that this is a matter that has always been in the public eye. For example,
04:17even back in 2009, a lady called Norizan Saleh was shot and almost died. Then in 2010, Aminul Rashid Hamzah,
04:25a mere 14-year-old boy was shot and killed by the police. This is something that has always been
04:30in the collective mind of the public. And the police have been doing this for such a long time.
04:35And now in this particular case of Durian Tunggal shooting, there is audio evidence that the police
04:40were having a conversation with the three individuals for almost 10 minutes before they were shot dead.
04:47So this whole issue of self-defense is a non-issue. It's a complete fabrication by the police.
04:51There is no such thing as self-defense when the three of them had already been arrested and they
04:55were already detained before they were shot. And we have proof. We have the audio recording.
05:01So I think this is what upsets the Malaysian public the most. The fact that you can arrest someone and
05:07then you can shoot them execution style. And the fact that they were shot execution style also goes
05:12without any doubt whatsoever. Because I spoke to the pathologist myself. The bullet for one of the
05:18individuals, it entered through his nose and landed. The final destination was his heart.
05:23So the angle of the bullet was straight from the top to bottom, about 80 degrees.
05:28It is impossible for such an angle of a bullet to happen in self-defense. This is definitely execution
05:35style killing. Rajesh, you mentioned a bit earlier the need for independent oversight of the police. And
05:43that is a question that Malaysia has been grappling with for many years, since 2004-2005. So it's been
05:51decades now. Can you talk to me a little bit about the fact that without having that framework or system
05:58in place, victims or survivors are now having to go through the judiciary, having to ask the courts to
06:07provide that oversight for police accountability? Yes, it's very unfortunate that we don't have a third
06:15party body that provides for accountability. What we have is a watered down, toothless IPCC. Now what we
06:22asked for, what the Malaysians deserve is IPCMC. But if you recall, Melissa, back in 2019-2020, the police
06:30themselves objected vociferously to the formation of the IPCMC. Now that itself makes no sense to me,
06:38because why should the police object to a third party body that is overseeing them? If you have
06:44not done anything wrong, and you are not going to do anything wrong, why are you so afraid of
06:48accountability? Why are you so afraid of being investigated by a neutral third party? No, they refuse.
06:56And now that you have a watered down IPCC, you look at what the police are doing. Basically,
07:01they are running riot. They are going around shooting and killing Malaysians in public,
07:05even Malaysians without a police record, without a criminal record, and even individuals who have
07:12already surrendered, and still they are being shot and killed. Now, what is going on?
07:17Right. I remember the objections the police had to founding an IPCMC, and one of the reasons they
07:24provided was the fact that civilian oversight over police matters or police duty is really difficult.
07:33And that's not just in Malaysia. I think elsewhere we have that conversation ongoing globally.
07:39How do you respond to that? That civilian oversight of the police is actually very difficult.
07:45There is nothing difficult about civilian oversight at all. I mean, who is the IGP answerable to? He's
07:52answerable to the Home Minister. Isn't the Home Minister a civilian? And who is the Home Minister
07:57answerable to? The Prime Minister. Isn't the Prime Minister a civilian as well? What is so difficult
08:01about that? This is a non-issue. This is a fabricated false issue that they have conjured out of thin air
08:08merely to not have any sort of oversight so that they can run riot.
08:13I spoke to Yu Kay Menon, who is the Barrister, in my previous conversation for this show, and he
08:20brought up the Pastor Ko ruling case, in which the judge had ruled that authorities are vicariously
08:31liable for his enforced disappearance, for Pastor Ko's enforced disappearance, and that there is a duty of
08:37care that the police have in protecting, or the police breached duty of care to Pastor Ko and his family.
08:46Can you talk a little bit about that from a legal standpoint and how that might apply to cases
08:51of duty of care around police? The police, they are governed by the Police Act 1967, which clearly
08:59states that they have a duty to all Malaysians when they are investigating a matter, when they have
09:05arrested a person, they are completely liable and responsible for the safety of that person.
09:11And the police, they are answerable to the Home Minister. So, therefore, the Home Minister is
09:16vicariously liable for any actions of the police. So, that is why it is important that the police,
09:22whenever they discharge their duties, they must discharge it with a proper level of duty of care
09:27to ensure that this person who is under their custody, or who they are investigating,
09:32does not suffer any prejudice whatsoever. They have their duty. They cannot arrest the person,
09:37take him to the balai, and beat him up. They can't do that. They have a duty of care to that person.
09:42Can I ask you, Rajesh, what's next for the case?
09:48This is a difficult question, because what comes next, or what ought to come next, is the criminal
09:55prosecution. The murderers who shot these three individuals, they ought to be charged in court
10:01under Section 302 of the Penal Court. But that does not seem to be happening. Despite the fact that
10:06the murders occurred on November 24, it's been more than one and a half months now, and nothing is
10:11moving. So, what comes next is that there will be more protests, there will be more letters, and the
10:19lawyers and the families will be approaching the members of parliament, they'll be approaching the
10:23government, they'll be approaching the Prime Minister, demanding, seeking, even begging that justice be
10:30done. That the murderers of these three individuals be held to account. Rajesh, thank you so much for
10:37being on the show with me. That was human rights lawyer Rajesh Nagarajan there, wrapping up this episode
10:41of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
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