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00:30Transcription by CastingWords
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01:30Armed Police were scrambled to a quiet North Yorkshire hamlet this morning.
01:34The wife's been attacked.
01:37She's been attacked?
01:38He had a gun and he said to me, don't be stupid, we've got your wife.
01:4240-year-old Diana was found dead in the living quarters of the post office she ran with her husband Robin in the village of Melsenby.
01:51The husband of North Yorkshire postmistress Diana Garbutt has been charged with her murder.
01:55His version of events of a robber coming in and killing her, it just wasn't plausible.
02:00I started to wonder, does that make him walk guilty?
02:05But clearly there were flaws in that original investigation.
02:10I think the more in the court these things came up, the more you thought, well, something's going wrong here.
02:16I'm not a police officer, I'm not a detective, but clearly something's not being done properly.
02:25Something just didn't add up.
02:26The prosecution believed Robin had been stealing from the post office over a period of time.
02:33And that was based on information provided by the Horizon system.
02:38The post office prosecuted 736 of their own staff for theft or false accounting.
02:45The real culprit, the Horizon computer system.
02:48When they finally got the records, I looked at the statements and immediately I said,
02:55well, hang on a minute, in my opinion, there's another side to this story.
02:59If there's flaws in this Horizon system, how can anything produced by the Horizon system
03:07be safely used in a court of law as evidence?
03:13It's about getting the truth about what happened to Diana.
03:18During the court process, you feel as if you're supposed to be in one camp or the other.
03:48Obviously, his family are persuaded that he's not guilty.
03:53Whereas Di's family, her mum, Agnes, was persuaded that, you know,
04:01we've worked out what's happened, he's guilty,
04:03we're just going to go through this process of proving him guilty.
04:05I was in the, I don't know if he's guilty or not guilty camp.
04:13I don't know what happened.
04:17I'm trying to decide as if he was a 13th member of the jury.
04:22Members of the jury, you are now going to hear from Mr. Hill, who appears on behalf of the defense.
04:37Ladies and gentlemen, I am going to suggest the prosecution case is no more than a theory,
04:45one which the police happened upon at an early stage.
04:48The area which the prosecution have perhaps concentrated on the most is the idea of motive.
04:57The prosecution have explored two areas, Mr. Garbutt's private life and their personal finances.
05:03Hearing what people were saying about Robin Di at trial, their personal life,
05:11for a lot of people in the village, it was very hurtful.
05:15They made out that she was like sleeping around and things.
05:19We have a close friend who had been going biking with her and, again, they had to say that
05:28that was some sort of relationship going on because she couldn't go biking with somebody
05:33on her own or whatever.
05:36In 2009, we had a bit of a rough patch.
05:40It happens sometimes with couples.
05:43Diana said she might need some space.
05:45We discussed it.
05:47When you get up at 4.30 and work late in a shop, you are tired.
05:52We didn't have enough sex.
05:55It upset Di at times, but we did discuss it.
05:59The prosecution suggested that it was a loveless marriage,
06:02that his wife was being unfaithful and was in contact with several men,
06:05either directly or through the Internet.
06:10Di did confide in me quite a bit.
06:13And not about everything.
06:17We would sit and have coffee, you know, and chat, as friends would do.
06:24In terms of affairs, I didn't know any of that.
06:30I don't know.
06:32I can't answer that one.
06:35She quite liked to chat to people
06:37and just, you know, spend time with them, getting to know them,
06:41regardless of who they were or what age they were or, you know, male or female.
06:46And that could have come across as being flirtatious.
06:51The court also heard that Mrs. Garbert had a page on a dating website
06:55on which she described herself as a 41-year-old girl
07:00looking to meet a guy aged between 35 and 50.
07:06The prosecution set great store by the Badoo website.
07:10Although the computer crime unit trawled through Diana's laptop,
07:13there was no sign at all that she ever replied
07:15to any compliment or message saying, hello.
07:19They were saying that she was on a dating website.
07:22I didn't know that.
07:23She'd never told me that.
07:25She'd never replied to anybody on this dating site.
07:29All it was was people messaging her or liking her picture.
07:33And all I could think of was that she kind of needed that bit of an ego boost.
07:37You know, she was...
07:38Maybe her self-esteem was struggling a little bit.
07:42Did you suspect she was having affairs with other men?
07:45I didn't suspect I was having affairs.
07:48As of March 2010, what did you think of the relationship?
07:53We had the best relationship.
07:55I thought we were a loving couple.
07:57I miss her terribly.
07:58They're making Di out to be somebody that kissed and got drunk and flirted.
08:04And it's wrong to do that when she's not here to say why.
08:07She can't answer for herself.
08:10There was one drunken kiss.
08:11There was flirtatious banter.
08:13It wasn't anything new to Robin, was it, any of that?
08:16It was a drunken kiss.
08:19Di went back to Robin and told him everything.
08:23They sorted it out.
08:24It was fine.
08:25And they carried on.
08:26The thing is, it's a year ago.
08:28It isn't a month ago.
08:30It wasn't the week.
08:31They had a wonderful marriage, didn't they?
08:33They worked through the bits and bobs.
08:35They've always done that because they've always talked.
08:38They've always been close.
08:39There only is them two.
08:40There's no children.
08:41Either of them could walk away, but they built a relationship together.
08:44And he was devoted to her.
08:46And they were fine.
08:47The prosecution said Diana Garbutt's infidelity intensified, but there is absolutely no evidence
08:54of that whatsoever.
08:57I suggest it is very, very thin evidence of motive.
09:01In fact, no evidence of motive at all.
09:03So their motive must have been their financial affairs, of course.
09:09Personal finance.
09:11Why is this a reason for him to kill his wife?
09:16Di and Robin never talked about their financials.
09:20They weren't extravagant.
09:22They didn't have luxury holidays.
09:25They didn't go out for expensive meals and things like that.
09:31But there was lots of rumours that Robin was stealing from the post office by ordering lots
09:37of money and then not sending it back.
09:45Cash management was an important part of running a branch.
09:48Part of your end of day procedure would be to count every single note, every single coin
09:55in the branch, and that had to be entered into the Horizon system.
10:00Once you'd done that, you could then put the money away, lock up the safe, and that was
10:05the end of your day.
10:07That assisted then this algorithm to work out whether surpluses were building up or whether
10:12funds were running low, and then it would adjust the cash that it would deliver to you.
10:18But it didn't actually work like that in practice, because invariably it was wrong, and there
10:25were always arguments between postmaster and cash centre as to whether or not he could top
10:31up his holdings in the branch with extra money.
10:36It was a constant thorn in our side trying to get the cash levels right in a branch in order
10:42to serve the customers.
10:48The police and the post office looked into Robin Dyer's finances and they said that Robin
10:54had been stealing over a period of time to sustain their lifestyle.
10:58They said that Robin was ordering more and more money from the post office and using it
11:02like a bank almost.
11:04However, there is no physical evidence of Robin doing anything untoward with money that could
11:11have been taken from the post office.
11:12Where did all the cash come from?
11:17We weren't desperate.
11:18We didn't take cash from the post office.
11:22Our credit card debt had increased.
11:23We were mindful of that.
11:25We spent weekends away at nice hotels.
11:29We spent maybe £4,000 per annum on holidays.
11:32To the post office.
11:35Well, the prosecution invested a lot of time suggesting that the money may not have been
11:40in the safe.
11:42So the evidence given by the post office, a reputable institution, I'm sure the jury will
11:46have just taken that on board.
11:47That's got to be right.
11:48We aren't even going to question that.
11:50And to be quite honest, the way they gave it all, it lost everybody in the courtroom anyway.
11:57They lost me.
11:57If the Garberts had been in desperate financial straits, why is this a reason for him to kill
12:04his wife?
12:05It is a matter for you to consider.
12:08The prosecution evidence is essentially that it's a crime of passion.
12:11When you've got, you know, adulterous relationships, when you've got unhappiness, when you've got
12:16financial difficulties, you've got an awful lot of pressure on a relationship there,
12:19haven't you?
12:20Tension and potential, you know, motive for the murder.
12:23Do not forget, it was Diana who was doing the books.
12:26Diana, who liaised with the accountant.
12:29She was the one who had a handle on the financial situation.
12:33Diana's the postmistress.
12:35The police say Diana had been doing the account.
12:38And so she would have known before 2010 if there'd been anything missing.
12:43I think the prosecution at the trial didn't have a clue at any direction they were going.
12:58They were just jumping at ideas.
13:01So what they brought forward was it was stealing from the post office.
13:05When that wasn't working so well, it was Diane was having an affair.
13:10And when that wasn't working so well, something else would be thrown in.
13:14I don't think they had a direction or any idea.
13:18They were fumbling all the way through it.
13:20For somebody to be doing the job that they're doing and there to be no physical evidence for him to have killed her, none whatsoever, it really is unbelievable.
13:34For me, I would have to have physical evidence to say someone had killed someone.
13:38I was involved in the investigation early on.
13:52And the investigation team had a set of images of the bedroom where Diana was found.
14:00Before any samples really have been taken, before exhibits have been removed.
14:05So I can see what it was like at the moment that that scene came under police control.
14:15The crime scene essentially was the bedroom above the post office itself.
14:22It was just a regular dwelling where there was a double bed, bedside tables and lamps.
14:29There were images that showed Diana on the bed.
14:37And she was positioned on her back on effectively the left-hand side of the bed.
14:44And it was clear that there was an enormous amount of blood staining that was present on the sheets and on the bedding.
14:50Further on at the trial, we've learnt more of the detail, you know, that she'd been hit on the head from behind.
15:12And, you know, more than likely that she was asleep at the time.
15:19A post-mortem later confirmed three distinct head injuries.
15:24Blows delivered by a blunt object.
15:27Likely a metal rod.
15:29That was so distressing.
15:31So distressing.
15:33And I kept thinking, why three?
15:36You know?
15:37Why have you done it three times?
15:38That's just evil.
15:40A reconstruction was carried out with the head of a mannequin to test the sequence of events.
15:52The pathologist drew on this head the injuries that Diana had sustained.
15:58And then that allowed us then to sort of use this as a three-dimensional prop that we could then realign it with the pillow to try and understand how the blood staining might have developed from the injuries.
16:13If her head's in the pillow facing to her left, then she's probably asleep when the first blow is delivered and then turned to face her right, which is very likely where the assailant was stood.
16:30And where there are two additional blows in one order or the other.
16:37They often say that the victim is the last eyewitness.
16:40And probably she turned to see her assailant.
16:49The women in the family are the strong characters.
16:52Because, you know, whoever did it, you know, put Robin as one of the options.
16:59But if it wasn't Robin, somebody else put an end to her life in a brutal, cowardly way.
17:08And, you know, if you're a fighter, you don't expect that to happen, do you?
17:13I was really worried about my dad, knowing that he'd be exposed to the level of detail of the crime and how close he was to Diana,
17:29knowing that he'd have to sit and listen to, you know, horrendous details about her death.
17:38He hadn't gone into court gunning for Robin, being guilty.
17:47He didn't see it like that at all.
17:50He just wanted to establish as many facts as possible and wanted to make sense of it.
17:58The pillow is kind of like the cover of the book.
18:11You know, it's like the picture.
18:14And you think, I wonder what the detail is within it.
18:18There was a kind of brown smear.
18:22And it was this kind of transfer of material that went across the pillow.
18:28It wasn't blood, but it was brown, so it looked like perhaps a rust-like type material.
18:36Just to put this in context, Doctor, there is evidence of DNA on the pillow, and the DNA does not match Mr. Garbutt.
18:44Yes.
18:47And the reality is that this could be DNA from a murderer.
18:53Potentially, yes.
18:54They said that it had DNA on it, but nothing of Robin.
18:59But unknown male DNA.
19:01Yeah.
19:01And dies.
19:02And dies.
19:04Just the fact that there'd been unknown male DNA suggests straight away that there is other people involved in this.
19:12Otherwise, why would unknown male DNA be on the pillow?
19:16The alleged murder weapon, the iron bar, was found two days later, about 20 yards away from the house, on top of an eight-foot, ten-foot-high stone wall.
19:42It was proven that one end of the murder weapon was Dinah's DNA.
19:49She'd been struck by it.
19:51And on the other end of the murder weapon was the DNA of a policeman.
19:57No DNA of Robin whatsoever on the murder weapon.
20:00I'm in North Yorkshire Police.
20:06I'm currently based at York.
20:09On March 25th, there was a search for linear objects at Nelson Bay.
20:13The whole of my team was deployed.
20:15How did your DNA get in areas B and C?
20:23I can't recall if I touched it.
20:26DNA can be transferred airborne.
20:29I may have touched it.
20:31I did not pick it up.
20:32It's such an important thing that his DNA is on that murder weapon at the opposite end of Dinah's DNA.
20:44In your second interview, you were asked several times about your whereabouts on the 23rd.
20:51There's a number of things I could have been doing.
20:54It's six months down the line.
20:56I checked the telephone, bank statements and my mobile phone.
21:00I can't find out.
21:04Clearly, there were flaws in that original investigation.
21:07There's no two ways about it, you know, to have a potential murder weapon.
21:10And for the DNA to be contaminated in that way, that's, from a prosecution perspective, really difficult.
21:18Everyone in court was thinking there is a great element of doubt there.
21:22And he may be innocent.
21:25Mr. Garbutt, when do you think Diana died on that morning?
21:38I don't know.
21:39I have been going through this in my head.
21:41I think it happened between 4.30 a.m. and half past 8.
21:45And you heard nothing of anyone moving upstairs?
21:48No.
21:49A big plea was made of the fact that there was a struggle upstairs.
21:52His wife was murdered and he was completely unaware of it.
21:54She would have put up a fight, wouldn't she?
21:58I would have thought so, knowing Di, yes.
22:01But you heard nothing whatsoever?
22:03No struggle or fight or scream?
22:07I did not hear anything.
22:09So it appears that your wife has been killed without any apparent struggle?
22:14I don't agree with that.
22:15There was a clump of hair by her head, which suggests a struggle.
22:19There was a big projector and a slide put up.
22:24And it showed a clump of hair on the bed near the pillow.
22:29It was a shock because my first thought in my head is that Di must have kicked into her army, won and fought.
22:43And that what she's done is pulled the clump of hair out of that person.
22:47It wasn't the colour of Robin's hair.
22:50It wasn't the colour of Diana's hair.
22:52It was a different colour, hair.
22:58Obviously, they could have tested the route, got the DNA.
23:01If it was on the database, they could have told you who it was.
23:06However, North Yorkshire Police happened to lose the clump of hair.
23:11Well, they asked where it was, didn't they?
23:13They show it on the track.
23:14They show it on the projector, didn't they?
23:16And then they said, could you produce that?
23:17And they said, no, we can't because we don't know where it is.
23:19We don't know where it is. We've lost it.
23:25The head being lost as an exhibit is extraordinary, really.
23:29It's just like one thing after another, after another.
23:33It just beggars belief.
23:36I'm not a police officer.
23:37I'm not a detective, but clearly, something's not being done properly.
23:44I think they thought, right, Robin's done it,
23:47and therefore we're going to concentrate on just the evidence to fit that
23:51and not look further afield.
23:54I think the more in the court these things came up,
23:57the more you thought, well, something's going wrong here.
24:00Something's happening here that isn't coming out right
24:03because this all can't be happening.
24:05The errors that were made in terms of the handling of the murder weapon
24:10and also with a clump of air, it being lost,
24:14that leaves that doubt, doesn't it, to a certain degree?
24:20But I would suggest that it is pretty much eradicated
24:23by all the rest of the evidence against him, really.
24:25On the night before the murder,
24:35Mr. Garbert had gone to Batley's and other stores
24:39before picking up fish and chips.
24:42He returned home between 8 and 8.30 p.m.
24:46I took the fish and chips into the house,
24:51died portioned it up.
24:53I was asleep by 9.30.
24:57For the prosecution, when she had her final meal and when she died,
25:01time of death was absolutely crucial.
25:03Dr. Jennifer Miller examined the contents
25:05of the deceased's stomach after the post-mortem.
25:08How do you make the assessment?
25:10Digestion can cease on death or on onset of severe trauma.
25:15She'd had fish and chips apparently that had been digested
25:18and you can tell a time of death
25:21from the contents of somebody's stomach
25:22because it stops being digested, obviously,
25:24when someone dies, effectively.
25:25The timescale is most likely six to eight hours after consumption.
25:30Six and eight hours later.
25:32So taking the latest of those two times, 8.30,
25:36would mean that the digestive process most likely ceased
25:40between 2.30 and 4.30 in the morning?
25:44Most likely, yes.
25:46They had an expert witness who said
25:48that they've examined the stomach contents
25:51and she died in line with the prosecution case.
25:57She was so powerful in the dark,
25:59everybody thought, oh, my God, that was quite bad.
26:03Evidence against Robin.
26:04The really key evidence against him
26:07was about the fact that the pathologist had said
26:09that she died in the early hours of the morning.
26:11So his account of her being murdered
26:13just before the robber came down
26:15and took the money from the safe
26:16and then left the premises,
26:18that kind of started to fall apart, really.
26:20In my experience,
26:31the way Postman's alarms would work
26:33is that they're time-lock safes.
26:38That morning, the unlocking process commenced
26:41at exactly 8.31 and 54 seconds a.m.
26:49You're getting a beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep sound
26:52for about four minutes.
26:54And then when it went silent,
26:56the locks had been undone.
26:57The jury was told in court
27:04that there was only two minutes
27:05between the safe opening
27:07and him making the 999 call.
27:09In fact, it was less than two minutes.
27:13The robbery had to have taken place
27:19between 8.35 and 54 and 8.37 and 13 seconds.
27:25So if you take his version of events at face value,
27:30robber has to get in, get the money out,
27:32make the threats to him,
27:33and then he's got away in less than two minutes.
27:39I opened the safe door,
27:41pulled the stamp tray out
27:42and put the tray on top of the safe.
27:45Then I heard a noise.
27:47I thought it was die.
27:48The guy was stood by the side door
27:50and he had a bag with him.
27:53He went to the shop till
27:54and took some money from the tray?
27:56Yes, and then he left.
27:58And by his account,
28:00it all took place
28:01at a very, very busy time,
28:02not only for the shop,
28:03but in the village.
28:04You know, people are waking up,
28:05people are walking dogs or whatever it is.
28:08No one has seen the person come out
28:09who's committed that murder.
28:12I was hanging washing up
28:14at about 8.39 in the morning.
28:16I can see the post office rear door from there.
28:20The door to the post office was closed.
28:23I saw no one,
28:24or heard no one from the direction of the post office.
28:27I saw no one crossing the yard.
28:34Presumably having gone upstairs,
28:36you went into the bedroom to see your wife
28:38and assessed the situation
28:39before telephoning the police.
28:41I can't remember because of this situation.
28:44I can't remember at all.
28:45Anybody listening to that evidence would think,
28:48why didn't you go across and check her?
28:50Why didn't you find out if she was dead?
28:52Why didn't you make an effort to resuscitate?
28:53There was no need to go in
28:55because you knew that you had bludgeoned her to death.
28:58That is all wrong.
29:00I dialed 999.
29:02I would never hurt die.
29:03For the close of the trial,
29:20North Yorkshire Police released the details of the 999 call.
29:26It's the call shop to East Road, Nelsonbury.
29:28And that was actually released in its full,
29:30in its entirety, the recording.
29:33And that steers with you.
29:35That was a very, for me anyway,
29:36that was my abiding memory of that trial.
29:41The 999 call made at precisely 8.37
29:44on the morning of the 23rd of March last year
29:47from Welsenby Post Office
29:48was the first the outside world knew
29:50of the tragedy that had befallen
29:52postmistress Diana Garbett.
29:55A distraught Robin Garbett
29:57is heard pleading with operators
29:59for help to save his dying wife.
30:03Are you with your wife now?
30:05Yes.
30:06How old is she?
30:08She's 13, 34, 35.
30:11That's right.
30:13She's 40.
30:14Right, sir, is she conscious?
30:16No, sir.
30:17She's got a funny colour
30:19and she's not responding to anything.
30:22OK, is she breathing?
30:24I don't think so, no.
30:25Apart from calling 999,
30:30did you do anything to help Mrs. Garbett?
30:33Did you give her resuscitation?
30:36She was lying on her front.
30:38I tried to turn her over.
30:39I did try to help her.
30:40What I want you to do is
30:43I want you to check her breathing.
30:45How do I do that?
30:46She's laying on her belly
30:50with her head right in the middle of her.
30:52Right, right, sir.
30:52She's all plastic.
30:53Sir, lay her flat on her back
30:55on the ground.
30:56I can't!
30:57She's in bed, only.
30:59She's in bed.
30:59I can't move her.
31:01Right, sir.
31:01We need to try, OK?
31:03We're going to try and help her.
31:04I can't move her.
31:05We had to sit and listen to him
31:08and, honestly, he just...
31:14His voice and it...
31:16It was just awful to hear.
31:19Awful.
31:19You're doing really well, sir.
31:20Just trying to put her on her back.
31:22Did you manage to get her on her back?
31:23No, she's so low.
31:25There's blood everywhere.
31:26I feel she's terrible.
31:28Right, wait.
31:30Have you managed to get her on her back?
31:32No, she's back.
31:32She's back.
31:34I've moved her, but she's back on her back.
31:36She's back the belly.
31:39Is there anybody nearby,
31:41a neighbour that you can go and get to help you?
31:44Paramedics found themselves
31:46dealing with a frantic Robin Garbutt
31:48over the telephone.
31:49They asked him,
31:50was there anyone nearby
31:51that he could call upon to help?
31:53And the woman he'd turned to
31:55was close friend and neighbour,
31:57Pauline Dye.
32:00Hello.
32:01Hello.
32:01Right, we need to get...
32:02Have you got somebody there to help you?
32:03I've got Paramedics,
32:04but we're both so scared.
32:06I understand.
32:06I'm going to tell you exactly what to do, OK?
32:10Between the two of you,
32:11you need to get your wife on her back,
32:13on the floor.
32:15I can't do it.
32:16You can't.
32:17I've seen the floor.
32:19It's going to happen.
32:21I'll go the floor that way.
32:23It provided dramatic
32:24and emotional evidence today.
32:26Robin Garbutt breaking down in the dock
32:28as his 999 call was played out to the court.
32:32Throughout that call,
32:33you could hear that Mr Garbutt was crying
32:35and in clear distress.
32:38Oh, no.
32:39Come out, Diana.
32:40Come on.
32:44You're awake, Diana.
32:45They told him to try various things.
32:50I can't...
32:50You know, he physically couldn't do it.
32:52So he'd went and got a neighbour.
32:54The neighbour came round,
32:55and Sister Robin was rolling die over and checking her.
32:58You turned her over
32:59and saw what you had done to her in the daylight.
33:02He was then asked if he would check
33:04if his wife was still breathing,
33:06and he was heard saying to the late Mrs Garbutt,
33:09oh, die, you're warm.
33:11By then, the paramedics were there,
33:13and they confirmed that, sadly, she was dead.
33:16The paramedic team then arrived on the scene,
33:19and because Mr Garbutt hadn't hung up the phone,
33:21his conversation with them was also recorded.
33:24Forensic analysis,
33:54was essentially that she died an awful lot
33:56earlier in the night,
33:57and the paramedic was saying
33:59there was a bit of a discussion,
34:00and I know it sounds odd,
34:02where Robin was saying,
34:04is she still warm, or words to that effect,
34:06and he was saying, no, she's been dead for some time,
34:08and he was kind of contradicting that,
34:10even at that stage,
34:11because he would have been aware,
34:13the prosecution contended,
34:14that that was going to contradict his alibi.
34:18That's what we call him to be marty.
34:22Yes, that's what we call him to be marty.
34:24Yes, I'm afraid she's been down for a while,
34:26and it's what we call him to be marty.
34:28Look.
34:29That's what we call him to be marty.
34:32He was captured saying to a member
34:34of the ambulance team, of his wife,
34:37she's warm.
34:38The paramedic then told him,
34:40but if you look, sir,
34:41that's what we call rigor mortis.
34:43Mr Garbutt says to him,
34:44it's not rigor mortis.
34:46The paramedic replies,
34:47it is, I'm afraid,
34:49and she's been down for some time.
34:51The paramedic said she was blue.
34:53She was subject to rigor mortis.
34:56I cannot remember what the paramedic said.
34:59I held her hand.
35:00You knew her arm was stiff.
35:04Her fingers moved.
35:06Her legs moved.
35:07When I tried to turn her over,
35:08I was mindful of that.
35:10He really was eviscerated in the dock
35:12in terms of his account,
35:14and I think he was trying,
35:16in my opinion,
35:17he was trying to justify
35:17an awful lot of things,
35:19particularly in regard to the timescale
35:21and the time frame.
35:22That would just ludicrous, really.
35:26At what time in the morning
35:27did you kill her, Mr Garbutt?
35:29I would never hurt die.
35:32I love my wife.
35:36She didn't love you, though,
35:38did she, Mr Garbutt?
35:39She didn't love you.
35:42I think you're very wrong.
35:44I think she loved me back.
35:49I don't know.
35:51I had one uncomfortable feeling
36:02that I haven't mentioned,
36:04which was during the court break.
36:07I walked over to the door of the court
36:10just to have peep through the window
36:12to see, you know,
36:13is there any action?
36:14Is there anybody coming back in
36:16through the other way?
36:17And I just looked at that,
36:19through that window,
36:20and in the reflection
36:21of that glass,
36:24Robin was looking at me.
36:29And that was the first time
36:31that I felt,
36:32you know, uncomfortable
36:34by him.
36:38And then, you know,
36:40out of all the evidence
36:41that I'd heard,
36:43none of that had made me think
36:44that he was guilty,
36:45but he was guilty of that
36:48act of, you know,
36:50I can look at your back,
36:54but I can't look at your face.
37:06Ladies and gentlemen,
37:07I have left until last
37:09possibly the most important witness,
37:10Brian Hurt.
37:13Not a friend or best mate
37:14of Mr. Garbutt,
37:15just somebody who used the shop.
37:19Around 6.45,
37:21I went to the paper shop.
37:23Mr. Garbutt was serving.
37:25We passed the time of day.
37:27As I turned to go,
37:29I heard a woman's voice.
37:32She said one word,
37:33Robin.
37:35He said,
37:36yes, Di.
37:37I'm 90% sure it was Di,
37:39or it was Deer.
37:53He was clear that
37:54at about 6.45,
37:56he heard a voice saying,
37:58Robin.
37:59He said it sounded
38:00like a woman's voice.
38:01And he said either,
38:03yes, Di,
38:03or yes, Di.
38:08The importance of that evidence
38:10cannot be overstated.
38:12You just have to look
38:14at the till roll to see.
38:16If this is quarter to seven,
38:18customers are coming
38:19thick and fast.
38:20Mr. Garbutt cannot possibly
38:22have run upstairs,
38:24hit Diana with an iron bar,
38:26run out and pop the bar on the wall.
38:29There is no possible opportunity.
38:31There is no doubt whatsoever
38:34that would back up
38:35Mr. Garbutt's version of events.
38:38And what's really quite difficult
38:40in the legal system
38:42is reasonable doubt.
38:43I've been in court cases before
38:44where you get people
38:45who genuinely,
38:47you know,
38:47jurors who ask for the judge
38:48to explain what reasonable is.
38:49And it's really hard to define,
38:52you know?
38:56The jury in the case
38:57of a man accused
38:58of killing his postmistress wife
39:00has retired
39:01to consider its verdict.
39:03Robin Garbutt denies
39:04the murder of his wife,
39:05Diana,
39:05at their post office
39:06at Melsenby
39:07in North Yorkshire
39:08last year.
39:08Much of this boils down
39:11to one key issue
39:12for the jury to decide.
39:13That is,
39:14when exactly
39:15did Diana Garbutt die?
39:17Now, why is that so...
39:18That atmosphere
39:19in the court
39:21when you're waiting
39:21for a verdict
39:22is like something
39:24you've never experienced before.
39:27It goes quiet
39:28and then
39:29it goes quieter than quiet.
39:32If a minute's silence
39:35can feel like a long time,
39:39this feels like forever.
39:43I'd sat there
39:44and listened to it all.
39:45If I was a juror,
39:46I would have been
39:47one of the ones
39:47that said,
39:48I don't know.
39:49Because I don't think
39:50you're there to say
39:51he didn't do it.
39:54You're there to say,
39:55I'm sure he did.
39:57And unless you can,
39:59he's not guilty.
40:02Foreman,
40:06do you, the jury,
40:08find the defendant,
40:09Robin Joseph Garbutt,
40:10guilty or not guilty
40:12on the charge
40:12of this indictment
40:13for murder?
40:18We, the jury,
40:20find the defendant,
40:21Robin Garbutt,
40:23guilty.
40:32His face was just
40:41like ashen.
40:42It was just
40:43a real funny colour.
40:47He didn't really
40:48look at me
40:49or anybody.
40:49He wasn't looking
40:50at anyone.
40:51He was just
40:51looking down.
40:52And I just wanted
40:54to be able
40:54to get to him
40:55because I knew
40:56that he would need us
40:58and we couldn't
40:59do that for him.
41:03I find it
41:04to be proved
41:05that the defendant
41:06was stealing cash
41:07from the post office safe.
41:10I do not doubt
41:11that in some way
41:12his fear of exposure
41:13led to the murder.
41:17I order
41:18that the defendant
41:18serves a minimum
41:20term of 20 years
41:22before he is considered
41:24for release
41:24by the parole board.
41:32To see him there
41:33go down those stairs,
41:35that was just
41:37the worst thing
41:39in my life
41:40that I think
41:40I'll have ever
41:41had to see
41:42because I knew
41:44he hadn't done
41:44anything wrong.
41:46Then our whole world
41:48was gone,
41:49wasn't it?
41:49Our family
41:50and all that we
41:50fought for
41:51and justice
41:52had all
41:54gone.
41:56Yeah.
41:56Yeah.
42:00I can remember
42:01Sally screaming out
42:03oh no
42:04and it was just
42:06horrendous.
42:09It was like
42:10how have you
42:11come to this decision?
42:13What have you
42:14based this decision on?
42:18Because it isn't evidence.
42:24we had a meeting
42:35with counsel
42:36after Robin's conviction.
42:38I banged my hand
42:38down on the desk
42:39and stood up
42:41and said
42:41you've managed
42:42to get
42:42the most innocent
42:43man in this country
42:44found guilty
42:46of one of the worst crimes
42:47you can possibly commit.
42:49and Mr Hill
42:50turned out
42:51and he said
42:52this isn't
42:53the end.
42:56He said
42:57because
42:57we asked
42:58for information
43:00from the post office
43:01based on information
43:03provided
43:03by the Horizon system
43:05but the post office
43:08said that that information
43:10wasn't available
43:11when it actually was.
43:15I joined the post office
43:16in 1978
43:17and then in 1988
43:20my wife and I
43:21bought our own post office
43:22and we ran that branch
43:24for 38 years
43:26and all throughout
43:28that time
43:28I played a role
43:30helping and representing
43:31some postmasters
43:32when they got into
43:34disputes
43:34with the post office.
43:37I've never trusted Horizon
43:39and when they finally
43:43got the records
43:44I looked at the statements
43:45from the post office officials
43:47and immediately I said
43:48well hang on a minute
43:49the jury haven't been
43:50given all the facts here.
43:52In my opinion
43:53there's another side
43:53to this story.
44:02It's only a few to
44:04but I'm not sure
44:05if I got the record
44:06I'm not sure
44:07but I'm not sure
44:07I'm not sure
44:08but I'll see it
44:09for a minute
44:09until I get into
44:11the statement
44:12I'll see you
44:12for the next week
44:13and then I'll see you
44:14for an intro
44:17and I'll see you
44:17again
44:18in the next week
44:19I'll see you
44:20by the next week
44:21and then I'll see you
44:22next week
44:23because
44:24I don't know
44:25you
44:27know
44:27when I hear you
44:28I don't know
44:29that
44:29look
44:30now
44:30...
44:31I'll see you
44:32You
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