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STRAIGHT TALK EP 8 - AHMED MWANASE ON THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY
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00:00We similarly condemn yesterday's arbitrary detention and deportation of Kenyan comrades
00:08who had traveled to observe the case, including former Chief Justice Willie Mutunga, former
00:15Justice Minister Martha Karua, and activists Hanifa Adan and Hussein Khalid, whereas Boniface
00:21Mwangi and Agatha Atuhairi are still being held in detention by the Tanzanian government
00:26now.
00:30Welcome to Straight Talk, where we engage Kenya's brightest minds in the issues facing
00:37our nation.
00:38I'm your host, Yvonne Chege.
00:40This episode, we're joined by somebody who's passionate about human rights, accountability
00:45and justice across East Africa.
00:49Mwanase Ahmed, thank you so much for joining us.
00:55Pleasure.
00:55Nice to be here with you.
00:56Thanks for having me.
00:57We are familiar with you from activism, but what were you doing prior to your now prominence
01:05within the political space?
01:07Personally, I feel like activism is a way of living rather than a title.
01:13It's about standing up for your community, for your people, for your environment.
01:17I think it's all quite interconnected.
01:19For the past 10 years or so, I've been living in Kilifi, and I do a lot of work with the local
01:26communities there.
01:27I was running an ecologe that was trying to also remodel how business is done, how tourism
01:33is done, so it can be done more ethically, more responsibly, building local economies, working
01:39harmoniously with nature, because also we need to create alternative systems that can actually
01:44be more beneficial for people, more sustainable.
01:48And I was getting involved in a lot of different community projects, so that's where you would
01:52find me also as a kind of well-known voice within the alternative tourism space and community
01:59space.
02:00I've always been working closely with my local community, trying to build different
02:04systems, but I, last year, took a bit of a transition to see how we can actually focus
02:12on the root cause of the issues.
02:14A lot of the work that we do, whether it's in the space of tourism or environmental work
02:19or community work, it's due to gaps created by bad governance.
02:25So yeah, from last year, February, even before the protests began, I started taking more
02:30interest in how do we actually push for a larger scale transformation?
02:36Because if we did have a government that had integrity, that had competence, that didn't
02:40misuse resources, that respected rule of law, implemented policy, it could create much larger
02:48scale transformation.
02:49I like that.
02:50I like the idea that you're seeing that in order to see change within your community,
02:56you really have to partake within the systems that exist and that are in place.
03:02Right?
03:03Like, there's no way to change anything without taking part.
03:08Yeah, there's certainly, I think also it's important to remember that we all pay taxes.
03:13Everybody has responsibilities and people are mandated by their jobs and also hold our resources,
03:22both at county level, at ward level and at national level to serve the people.
03:26So we should not be always trying to fill the gaps that they're leaving behind, but rather
03:33hold them accountable to implementing the needful for the betterment of the community at large.
03:42Citizen responsibility alongside political responsibility as well.
03:47Absolutely, yeah, definitely.
03:49Yeah, because systems don't really work if we don't make sure that they work as well.
03:54They are intentionally broken, let's say.
04:00So ultimately, we can find workarounds to put band-aids on problems, but if we can actually
04:07deal with the root cause of the problem, we can have a lot more impact.
04:11So that motivated then your journey into now a very serious version of activism, we might
04:19say, on the national platform.
04:22Yeah, last year I found myself, because I know, I've lived in Kalifi for a long time.
04:28I knew the last governor, Kingi, who's now the Senate, you know, the Speaker of the Senate.
04:32I know Munaro, who's the current government.
04:35I know a lot of the CECs.
04:36And they always looked up to me, along with other county representatives, because of the
04:40work that I did through this one eco-lodge.
04:43Because we put Kalifi on the map, you know, more than the tourism department.
04:46We worked on environmental issues more than the Department of Environment.
04:49So we did a lot there.
04:51And I'd always go to them with ideas and input.
04:53I'd be brought in for policy research, all of these things, but nothing ever happened.
04:57So I started my focus really there, which was at county level, you know, trying to keep
05:02pushing them to be more accountable to their mandates.
05:06When I saw that this idea of trying to work with people who have no interest in their work,
05:13and who are not going to be accountable to the people and who are going to misuse and steal
05:17resources, there's only so long that you can actually take the approach of, hey, can you
05:21try, you know, what about this?
05:23This could do better for our people and bringing ideas that go nowhere.
05:27So it became more effective for me to take an outside step to actually push for accountability
05:33externally.
05:34And I found myself just evolving through focusing on some county level issues and then kind
05:39of focusing at a national level, because that actually has impact for all the counties.
05:45And things continue evolving as we go more regional, as well as Pan-African.
05:52Every time I speak to an activist, you always hear the passion, right?
05:57But there's always an accusation of money that comes along with it.
06:03Are you paid?
06:04What is your motivation behind doing all these very great things?
06:09Right now is actually the worst time to ask me that, because as of December, I have zero
06:12salary.
06:14Pay bill, MPS.
06:18No, like you're welcome.
06:19I can be your assistant.
06:22To be honest, I think that's a very interesting question, because I personally am not on a
06:29payroll for the work that I do at the moment.
06:31Being said, it's completely unsustainable, because I spend so many hours, so much time
06:37doing what you see and what you don't see.
06:41For the past month and a half, I've been spending between four to 10 to 12 hours a day working
06:46on this issue of Tanzania.
06:48From the litigation, the documentation, the evidence, helping to push out what's happening
06:53to media platforms, liaising with the people of Tanzania, figuring out how are we going
06:58to hold this government accountable, trying to help them with medical response, legal response,
07:03all of this.
07:04Nobody has paid me even a shilling for any of what I've done.
07:07It's exhausting.
07:09It's depleting.
07:10It's very difficult.
07:12I have two young girls, and I'm not paid for it.
07:15Would it be nice if I was paid for it?
07:17Absolutely.
07:19Why do we have problems with people who are doing important work for us, for our people,
07:24for our community, for our region?
07:26Why do we have a problem with them having a salary?
07:28I think we need to ask ourselves that question, if they do.
07:32Look at someone like Njiri Wamigui, for example, who, I mean, blood, sweat, tears, sleepless
07:38nights goes into responding to GBV, rape, sexual abuse, all of these cases.
07:44Is there a gender desk that should be doing it?
07:46Of course they should.
07:47Should there be things that are put in place to prevent these ongoing cases so that the
07:52work of activism is less?
07:53Yes, but it's not.
07:55So that woman is a champion holding up a huge gap and the voices, the justice, the dignity,
08:05the safety of so many people.
08:07Now that's activism, right?
08:09Because you're standing up for women's rights, against gender-based violence, for people's
08:14rights, for child protection, against pedophilia and defilement.
08:19Do we really have a problem if she's able to pay her bills at the end of the day?
08:23Why is that a problem to us?
08:26So am I paid?
08:27No.
08:27Would I mind being paid so that I could focus fully on how to push for better governance,
08:33accountability, hold people accountable for crimes?
08:36It would be wonderful.
08:37How do, how, what should activists be paid then if you were to theorize or support?
08:44I'm not saying they should be paid.
08:46I think like if people expect or if people value other people standing up for them, if
08:54people value people protecting the environment and standing up for the environment, if people
08:58value lawyers who go in and deal with cases pro bono, people who are being abused or don't
09:06have access to justice, if people value people that speak up for women or children, all of that
09:13is a form of activism.
09:14There's an aspect of bias, though, as well, right?
09:17If you are funded as an activist from largely international organizations, it then might skew
09:24your motivation towards the work you do.
09:29How do people then trust an activist in how, in the manner in which they pursue their business?
09:36I think it's interesting because what we're seeing here is the effectiveness of government
09:43propaganda, right?
09:44All of this paid activism, their paid activism, it comes from paid government smear campaigns,
09:51character assassination.
09:53That's meant to devalue, tear apart and make people disrespect the work that people do to
10:00stand up for them.
10:01That's one perspective that I think we should bear in mind.
10:04We have vulnerable minds, so we are influenced by those around us and what they tell us.
10:14Now, for example, if you look at the most recent campaigns like Mangeki Mambi, whose page has
10:20been documenting all of this violence in Tanzania.
10:23Tanzania and there's a paid smear campaign where Tanzania has hired a Kenyan PR firm to attack
10:33her, basically, online.
10:35Now, if we're actually going to look at this objectively and say whether or not she's paid
10:41for the work, she does, because I don't know.
10:42But we have to acknowledge where this is coming from, where this idea is coming from.
10:46Um, and if we're going to look at that and say, oh, wow, she's actually a terrible person
10:51because she's amplifying the stories of people who don't have access to it.
10:55I think Shida and Iquertu, we need to do work as ourselves to see there's so much that happens
11:01on the digital space, the online space.
11:03What do we absorb?
11:04What do we take in?
11:05What do we question?
11:06What do we believe?
11:07What do we learn?
11:08What do we unlearn?
11:09So I think that's really important because it's a big part of this topic is where does this
11:13paid activism narrative come from?
11:15And a lot of it comes from government campaigns.
11:18Now, I'm not avoiding your question.
11:20I just want us to be clear about that because the context didn't wake up one day and say,
11:26oh, this person is bad because they're paid.
11:29This whole paid activism smear campaigns have been, um, have been what initiated, um, with
11:39intention.
11:39So, uh, funding, foreign funding.
11:44First of all, I think we should be fair, right?
11:47When we look at, uh, when we're judging different things or when we're, we're analyzing different
11:53things.
11:53So if we want to talk about, uh, funds that are coming into this country, um, we should
12:00look at all of the different funds that are coming into this country and what they support,
12:04right?
12:04Our government takes 1.3 trillion or more loans from foreign funding every year with
12:12strong, um, with strong desires in terms of what do they want?
12:17And there's a bias there.
12:18What resources do they want?
12:19What ownership do they want?
12:20How much are we paying them back?
12:21What do they now capture from our own state resources?
12:27Why is that not a problem?
12:28So when we look at foreign funding, because that's, we, our governments actually serve
12:36as puppets to foreign interests.
12:39We saw, you know, with the EU withdrawing this funding from Tanzania because of the violations
12:44of human rights.
12:46That's the, that's our governments answering to these foreign interests for their needs.
12:52So I think this foreign funding is everywhere.
12:55Uh, it's in our health services, it's in, uh, loans, it's in banks, it's in ownership
12:59of the private sector.
13:01So it's in the manner in which the foreign funding is utilized that you would like to
13:07see better?
13:07What I'm saying is I don't think it should just be scrutinized at the point of, from an
13:12activist organization.
13:13I think there's funds that go towards, and when we look, when we talk about activism, again,
13:19I think that, um, involves a lot of places.
13:21It focuses on people working on health, sexual reproductive health, gender-based violence,
13:25environmental, democracy work, good governance work, civic education.
13:30So all of those type, that types of work does receive funding from various sources, local,
13:36regional, and international.
13:38Now, we would not need any of that as well.
13:42If, um, our own government used our resources appropriately, supported the work that needed
13:49to be done, adhered to rule of law.
13:51So I don't think, um, it's a problem for organizations that are structured organizations to get financial
14:01support from various places, as long as it's in line with the benefit of, uh, what the people
14:08locally need and can benefit from.
14:11And as well, so long as it goes towards the target of what is, it's supposed to, right?
14:16I mean, from the government perspective, we know that anything that comes in goes towards
14:20their targets, their cars, their apartments, their luxury travel.
14:24We just saw 42 billion, was it 42 billion on domestic travel?
14:30No, it was even more than that, in 42 days.
14:32This is most recent statistic.
14:33So, but from a point of, um, these different organizations, everyone has reporting.
14:41They have systems in place that says, I actually held a community dialogue and we did civic
14:45education or we, you know, did research on the state of, so I don't think there is much
14:52room for gaps in terms of, um, adhering to whatever you were given support to do.
14:58So perhaps then from your perspective, then the critique about activism being paid only
15:04really goes towards political activists.
15:07There's many versions of activism that doesn't face the same level of scrutiny.
15:11And that's because politicians don't want people to speak up against what they're doing
15:16and are trying to make it look like a bad thing.
15:19Or to silence the voices and to silence it.
15:22And if you can turn your own people against you, if they, if the government can effectively
15:27turn Kenyans against people like Hanifa, for example, who raised 35 million shillings last
15:33year with support of others to help fill a gap after state sponsored violence.
15:38If they can make everyone hate her because of what she did, it's helping to kind of settle
15:43the anger against what they did.
15:45So it's all, we need to be just a bit more clever.
15:49We need to help educate each other.
15:51We need to re-question our own values and ethos and decide what we should believe that
15:56we see online and what we should actually push for.
15:59Because people who, it's really exhausting.
16:01It's really depleting.
16:02It's really hard work.
16:04It's dangerous.
16:05It's risky.
16:06Would you take, um, even 10,000 shillings a month to, you know, fight against Museveni,
16:12Suluhu and Ruto?
16:13You can't pay a lot of people to stand up against bad governance because it's dangerous,
16:18no matter what they're even being paid.
16:21And 99% of people aren't being paid.
16:24They're doing it because they really care about, um, the specific space.
16:28How, with that being the background of what you're operating under, where do you find the
16:34motivation to proceed?
16:35How'd you get up?
16:40How do you keep fighting?
16:42Interesting if the people you're fighting for also are fighting against you.
16:47I think that's probably one of the hardest things.
16:50It's not reached me as an individual yet.
16:52I mean, yesterday or two days ago, I saw a message on X, like, Opendo Moja, you're the
16:56true terrorist.
16:58La, la, la, la, la, la, la.
16:59Because PR companies, I mean, PR and propaganda is the only thing keeping the government, the
17:03economy afloat in Kenya at the moment.
17:05And social media is brutal and very effective.
17:09It is.
17:10That's what I'm saying, um, on all sides, right?
17:13So it's not really hit me as an individual yet, but I understand that it's difficult because
17:19it, um, for those who are directly attacked, um, being said, how do I find the motivation?
17:28All right.
17:28As I mentioned, I'm a single mother of two young girls.
17:31Everyone always says, what are you doing?
17:34How?
17:34How?
17:34How?
17:36Yes.
17:36Yes.
17:37For me, one of the things that drives me, one of many is like, there's what?
17:4350 million people living on the poverty line in this country so that 50 people, 500 people
17:51can live like luxurious lives.
17:53And where we stand, even if you can provide for yourself, you're one health accident, road
17:59accident, one emergency, one job loss away from being in that poverty line yourself.
18:05Now, for me, it's about the many, many millions of people who deserve a voice, who deserve a
18:11better reality, who, so I'm a unique product that's very selfless in terms of how I want
18:19to fight for others, regardless of whether it pays me, whether it puts me at risk, whether
18:24it takes away from my time.
18:25But like you say, you are a mother, you are one abduction away, a disappearance away, an
18:34intimidation away from an entirely different life.
18:38It's really difficult.
18:39As I was coming here, I was looking at online, there's a lady who was arrested in Uganda,
18:44Olivia, who was a part of Bobby Wine's campaign.
18:47And I saw someone else go to visit her kid in school.
18:51And like, she was like, that was the only thing I wanted, someone to go be there.
18:55So it's tough.
18:57But like, do we give up?
18:58I think the thing about me is a problem for the government, because even if I was given
19:0240 billion shillings, I wouldn't take it.
19:05It's not money that drives me.
19:07It's not.
19:07I don't blame people who need, who would take that, because poverty is one of our biggest
19:12enemies, right?
19:14As long as poverty can be sustained, it can be weaponized and used against us or used
19:20for their own gain.
19:21Me, I really want to see us succeed in being able to use all the litigation methods, all
19:30the advocacy methods, everything available to us to get these perpetrators, gangsters
19:37and thugs held accountable for their action.
19:39So right now, we're working closely on this case of Tanzania.
19:46And when I say working, there's no work for focusing a lot of efforts, right?
19:50Because we've opened a file at ICC, as well as other domestic litigation cases, Continental.
19:58We want to use every method available to us to hold both her, the chain of command, the
20:04people who financed her, the people who took orders, everyone who has been involved in
20:10this recent mass massacre, accountable for their actions.
20:15Because what's happening there is quickly trickling into Uganda, and it's going to come
20:19into Kenya.
20:19We saw what happened at the by-elections.
20:22So we are really seeing how we can use this.
20:27We missed the opportunity.
20:28We didn't miss it, but last year, you know, with the violence here in Kenya, nobody was
20:34held accountable, not a single person.
20:36We're still in court for Rex Masai's case and others.
20:38Does that mean it's too late?
20:40No, it can still happen.
20:42But with all of the evidence that's accumulated from Tanzania, the gravity of the massacres,
20:47all of the laws that were violated, we really want to make sure that we can also have a regional
20:52model that can work in terms of pushing for accountability.
20:57It is really troubling.
20:59Abductions, disappearances, intimidation.
21:02We see switching off of the internet, switching off of telecommunications and any broadcasting
21:10networks and services.
21:12And we've seen it in Tanzania.
21:14We had a little bit of it here.
21:17How does one fight something like that?
21:20And as we proceed into the elections coming up in 2027, it's very troubling.
21:27So I think we've had, there's a lot of different ways that we've been trying.
21:33One is that we anticipated the internet shutdown because that's a tactic that's being used in
21:39Kenya, in Tanzania, in Uganda.
21:41So with that, we tried to put in place some communication structures that would help us
21:45be able to get information out of Tanzania.
21:48Media companies were not allowed in.
21:50Observers were not allowed in.
21:52Local media channels were banned from covering.
21:58People in the three weeks before the fake election, you know, 55 people from the opposition
22:03party were abducted.
22:05Some killed, some tortured, some we still don't know where they are.
22:08And this has been a pattern over the past years.
22:11So we knew it was going to be a sham.
22:15We knew it was going to be fraudulent because there was already a lack of opposition, opposition
22:20being suppressed, disbarred from participating.
22:24So with that, we tried to already put in place wherever we could to help them amplify what
22:31was happening from here because Tanzania had a shutdown.
22:36That's one.
22:38One is being able to actually publicize what's happening because if something happens in the
22:43darkness, it's a lot easier to get away with.
22:44And with the cover-up and bodies being disappeared and people taken from hospital to morgue, there's
22:50been, it's been brutal.
22:51And I don't know how much I should expand, but rather I'll focus on your question.
22:55So one is from like amplification of truth perspective.
23:00Two is advocacy and litigation.
23:03So as mentioned, like we all have rule of law.
23:05There's rule of law of our countries.
23:08There's regional.
23:09We have EAC treaties.
23:10We have continental.
23:11We have international.
23:13So we have ongoing litigation cases that both focus on, as mentioned, Samia, chain of command,
23:22military, police, those taking directives, those financing, also to the telecom companies
23:28that broke the law and shut off the internet under the executive's order.
23:32So everybody who partook in their various ways, we're pushing, we're opening files and some
23:39already are ongoing to hold them accountable, not only at the East African level, but also
23:44continental and international because some of the East African and local court systems
23:48and justice systems also fail us.
23:50So we're looking at everything possible, documentation, evidence, also intervention, because SADC, the
23:59AU, other bodies have a responsibility to defend rule of law, to protect human rights.
24:04So we're also doing a lot of direct advocacy through other various bodies, locally, regionally,
24:10globally, for them to also stand up, speak up and hold Tanzania accountable, both at state
24:16level and on individual levels.
24:17You keep mentioning Tanzania.
24:20I imagine then that you feel that the elections weren't free and fair.
24:25They weren't.
24:26They weren't.
24:26And the reason that we're focusing there is because Uganda's happening in January.
24:30As you said earlier, there's patterns, right?
24:33We've seen these same patterns.
24:35And they're all coming from Museveni's book of dictatorship, extrajudicial killings, torture,
24:41abduction, arbitrary arrest, murder, barring opposition, amending competition, stealing
24:49elections, no free and fair elections.
24:52And we know that Kenya also has slipped into some of those patterns and behaviors.
24:57And Tanzania has now gone extremely rogue and we're going rogue over the past couple
25:03years.
25:03And they're working very closely together.
25:06So those cross-border dynamics will then infinitely come to translate into Kenya.
25:13So if we can find a way to be able to use litigation, right now our biggest focus is how
25:19do we also use litigation to prevent violence?
25:23We don't want more deaths.
25:24We don't want more deaths there.
25:25We don't want more deaths here.
25:26So it's kind of a model that we're trying to see what can work so that it can be applied
25:31across the region as well.
25:33Okay.
25:34But there is a lot of experimentation.
25:35We've seen over the past year, year and a half, with a lot of the demonstrations that
25:40have been going on in Kenya, the use of violence to infiltrate protests, that seems to be what
25:49is going to happen going forward.
25:53Absolutely.
25:54I mean, look at what happened at the by-election.
25:55It proved to us as well that Kenya is ready for the same exact type of fake election.
26:00The IBC is compromised, not working, not like no independent verifications, actually problems.
26:08And it was a by-election.
26:09It was not a national, like large-scale election.
26:13And this is how many problems we had.
26:16Intimidation at the polling stations, goons, violence against opposition, military and police
26:22not doing anything to protect people, lack of credibility on tallying.
26:28So we already are in a bad place when it comes to a quote-unquote free and fair elections.
26:33So it's almost like we're predicting what's to come.
26:37It's predicting because I don't want to anticipate a massacre in Kenya.
26:44It's more just observing and being aware and trying to take preventative measures and observing
26:50patterns.
26:51What sort of preventative measures do you think could be taken to avoid?
26:57We do have rule of law, no?
27:00If you violate that, you should be held accountable for your actions.
27:03If you also give shoot to kill orders, shoot in the leg orders, if you charge your youth
27:08with terrorism, as has been happening.
27:10We still have youth in Kenya locked up on terrorism charges.
27:13I think our issue is, though, there's a lot of ifs.
27:15We do have rule of law, right?
27:17But we talk about how many deaths have occurred without any accountability, without any person
27:25being held responsible for that.
27:27As much as we talk about those systems existing, what are we to do?
27:32If Suluhu, as one of these East African dictators, gets held accountable, gets taken out of
27:40power, gets legally held responsible, along with her chain of command for the violence,
27:45the sham of an election, the neglect to rule of law, everything that she's done, it will
27:50also set a very good example and precedent that shows you actually cannot get away with
27:55murdering all of your people and stealing an election.
27:57So that's why there's also focus on how did the Tanzanian election go?
28:03Because we know it's going to influence Uganda and Kenya.
28:06And what can we do to intervene?
28:10OK.
28:10Does that make sense?
28:12It does in a very ideal sense.
28:16But in terms of practicality, it doesn't seem to be what translates on the ground.
28:22So I think one thing we should remember is that where we are today, right?
28:29And the freedoms that the majority of Kenyans enjoy today, the right to be here right now,
28:34the right to be free from colonialism, the right to have a constitution that does provide
28:38some infrastructure, whether it's not fully adhered to or implemented, the right to have
28:44multi-party democracy, all of that is a result of not a majority population.
28:51It's not a result of what looked like could happen, right?
28:55It's a result of people defying odds to push for and fight for something.
29:03If you took us back to the 1950s, 1945, where our people were in concentration camps and being
29:09brutally raped, murdered, abducted, had no right to even live on their own land.
29:16And you said, hey, let's find a way to actually reclaim our land.
29:21I think we'd be having a similar conversation.
29:23That's a good idea.
29:25Like, you know, it's a kind of quality.
29:26So it's very true, but nothing that is a product that we are enjoying now, even with a long
29:34way to go, is a result of what looked easy or what was easy.
29:39So I think it's important that we do what we can.
29:44There's an example I was recently given, which is quite nice.
29:47It's like, assume this is the injustice, right?
29:49You can decide where to be.
29:51You can either sit here and you can be a part of implementing the injustice.
29:55This can be you, you're pushing it, you're exploiting the people, you're oppressing them,
29:59you're stealing from them.
30:00Or you can sit and you can watch this happen, right?
30:03And you can watch as the glass is going to fall off the table, or you can do what you
30:07can to push back against it.
30:10So I think ultimately we have a responsibility to speak up, to stand up, to try to push for
30:15something better, each and every one of us.
30:17I think the fear is being the example.
30:19I don't want to be the mother who didn't make it home that night.
30:23You know, the cousin who didn't make it home, you know, and that's really a really big fear.
30:29Just the risk of standing up and fighting for Kenya.
30:33You could be the one person and your death would never be avenged.
30:37Your death will find you.
30:39Even if you walk out of here today, you know, as a gongua nagari, or you can have a health
30:42accident or whatever might happen.
30:44We're all going to die.
30:46We go through a cycle of life.
30:48So what are we doing with our life?
30:50I think is a question we should be asking ourselves.
30:53Nobody wants to die.
30:54I'm not trying to die.
30:56Nobody wants that.
30:57But now if there's five people, for example, or 500 people or 50 people who are really speaking
31:06up for others, they become a lot easier target.
31:10Now, if every five people had 100 other people who also took time to speak up, it's a lot harder
31:16to target all of those people.
31:18But I think I just come back to, like, it's very easy to just kind of live life.
31:25It's very easy to choose ignorance is bliss.
31:27It's very easy to choose what I'm going to focus, not my joys.
31:31But I think also we owe it to ourselves.
31:35We owe it to those who fought for us, blood, sweat, tears, and everything for us to be where
31:40we are today.
31:41To our children who are going to grow up in a country that there's, you know, they don't
31:46have very many chances for their own well-being, their own health, their own success, their
31:50own futures, their dreams.
31:52What do they dream of?
31:54Dreams are suppressed for the majority of people.
31:57It's like survival mode only.
31:59To their grandchildren, we owe it to our country.
32:01So I think it's also what type of responsibility are you willing to take?
32:06It doesn't all have to be the same.
32:08But what can you do to make a difference?
32:10One way in which we're told we can make a difference or that people have the ability
32:15to control is through the ballot, through going and standing up in the long lines and
32:22making sure your voice is heard through the ballot.
32:25But that is waning in confidence.
32:29Do you believe that Kenya will have a free and fair election in 2027?
32:37It's like saying, do you think gold will fall from the sky when we walk out of the studio?
32:41It would be nice.
32:42I would love that.
32:43So ultimately, like, I think there's more to it.
32:46That's very important.
32:48We can't sit back and be like, you know,
32:51I have to pay so much to go get my son's teeth checked or whatever.
32:57These different, you know, why are there no books in this school?
33:01What does his future look like when there's a lack of jobs?
33:04How do we relate it to ourself?
33:05Because we need to remember that actually the effects of bad governance affect each and
33:10every one of us.
33:11Absolutely.
33:11They affect business.
33:12They affect everything.
33:14Every scale of life.
33:15And it's not just like, ah, nihi vo tu.
33:16It's actually because of people making very bad decisions with our futures, with our money.
33:22So should we be actively participating in the electoral process?
33:28What do you think?
33:29Absolutely.
33:30I agree.
33:30100%.
33:31100%.
33:32Is that enough?
33:35Yes.
33:36Theoretically, that is the essence of democracy.
33:39Realistically.
33:39The contract of democracy requires you show up every five years.
33:43I don't think you would have me.
33:45No, there's more.
33:46There's about public participation, right?
33:48And there's other elements of our people doing it.
33:50There's processes of involvement.
33:52I have a question, though.
33:54Do we not want to be realistic?
33:56We can.
33:57Yes, absolutely.
33:57We should.
33:58We should.
33:58Otherwise, it's kind of like, eh, me, me, just every five years, I'll show up and
34:02I'm doing my part.
34:03I think we all have a bigger part to play.
34:05Yes.
34:05Because that's kind of taking a savior mentality that someone's coming to fix us.
34:09What part is that?
34:10So, from what I would say is, you need to look at the root of a problem, right?
34:16If there's no free and fair election, what are the things that we can do to help to push
34:24towards it?
34:25Okay.
34:25So, I think that's like where you sit and it's the same thing we're doing, same thing
34:29we did last year that we're doing now for Tanzania.
34:31What are the options?
34:34Right?
34:34You have to map it out.
34:36Where does the root problem start?
34:38Okay.
34:39With IBC, what are they not doing right?
34:41Who's in that chair?
34:42Who's on that board?
34:43Did they have any violations in this past election, this by-election?
34:46Can they be held accountable for those actions?
34:49What observers can we be able to push to bring in as poll watchers?
34:54How can we actually get access to ID records to see all of the millions of IDs that are being
35:00issued to voters at the moment for fake votes?
35:02So, there's how can we continue pushing back against what we know is going to lead to the
35:07problem and create kind of alternative systems?
35:10How can we use technology to also harness on voter tallying, right?
35:14And what systems are available to us?
35:17So, there's so many problems.
35:19So, if we look at it as like, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't encourage people to
35:23get involved where they want to get involved.
35:25And if for them getting involved is registering to vote and showing up and doing it at least
35:30with your mbogi, that's great.
35:32Nani muhi musana.
35:33We have to start somewhere.
35:34But I think we have to do more than that.
35:36They really do talk about how Kenya is the blueprint of one of the greatest constitutions.
35:42Who's they?
35:43Well, lots of talk.
35:46And, you know, we have a great number of laws and regulations and legislation in place.
35:52So, you're really talking about making sure the system works as envisioned, as laid down
35:58in statute.
36:00I think there's differences between like a system and a constitution, right?
36:03Because the constitution is one of the strongest across the continent, even globally.
36:08And that's what's in writing, right?
36:11Now, is it implemented?
36:13Implementation.
36:13There's policies around environment and tourism and this and health and everything.
36:19Are they implemented?
36:20Are they adhered to?
36:21Are there regulations that guide action?
36:25And that's why you're saying in terms of the election, there's lots of regulations that
36:30help us.
36:30Even if we see it not going the manner in which it should, there is enough legislatively to
36:37support.
36:38As long as the judiciary is 90% captured, as long as the executive can do whatever they
36:43want with no checks and balances, as long as everyone who is, you know, in place for
36:49to, I can't say lead because there's a lack of leadership in this country, but to control
36:57these independent observation bodies that are meant to have another layer of checks and balances,
37:02we can't count on a framework that is completely broken, misused and neglected.
37:09So yes, we have a strong guideline.
37:13We have a strong manual, but there's a lot of changes that need to happen for it to help
37:18us as the 99% of the people.
37:22Do you foresee a large crackdown on the opposition towards and leading up to the election?
37:29Absolutely, because anyone who has already been rendered an illegitimate government like
37:34Ruto as well, after what, 80, 70% of the country came out on the streets last year and said,
37:40no, you don't serve us.
37:41Those people still, they still see that he is not the president to lead this country.
37:46He's already been delegitimized.
37:48It's been a scramble for relevance since last year.
37:50It's been campaigning, handouts, launching anything possible to show he's doing his job,
37:56he's working, bringing people to the statehouse for chai and 10k, 10k when you can't pay teachers,
38:02whatever other problems.
38:04So again, as long as poverty is intentionally sustained, then it'll be very difficult because
38:10there's still tribal politics, transactional politics.
38:14We can already see violence.
38:16We can already see violence against other candidates and opposition.
38:19Even I think today there was something in Karyobangi where there was state-sponsored violence
38:25because Gashagwa went there.
38:27So when we say the opposition, there's a lot of oppositions.
38:30And that will continue to evolve to include other people who are also like-minded in their ethos.
38:38So when we say opposition, I can't vouch for Gashagwa.
38:41That's not, I'm not interested.
38:42So again, we have to put aside, we have to really think about our values and decide what
38:50do we actually want?
38:50What do we actually deserve?
38:52Don't be brainwashed.
38:54Don't, you know, romanticize someone because of their words.
38:56Look at their history.
38:57Look at their action.
38:58Look at their track record.
38:59Look at their competence.
39:00Look at what they've done and achieved.
39:03How would you encourage someone?
39:05I do see that there is a trajectory of violence.
39:09Yes.
39:11I don't endorse it in any capacity.
39:15And I do hope that the example that we will continue making and using and advancing for
39:24the issue that's just happened across the border in Tanzania will be a big part of hopefully
39:29preventing significant violence.
39:32But it doesn't look good because our government likes blood.
39:35It doesn't look good.
39:36It doesn't look good.
39:37So when somebody is asking themselves, why should I vote?
39:40What is the significance of my vote?
39:45What would you tell them?
39:46If you think you're too small to make a difference, try spending the night with a mosquito.
39:56Or as another example, there's Wangari Mathai's hummingbird, right?
40:02It's like you either stand, you watch your fire burn, or you watch your forest burn, you light
40:10it on fire yourself, or you sit and even if you're a hummingbird, go and get one drop
40:14of water at a time to try and put it out.
40:15It makes a difference.
40:16So what are we doing with our lives?
40:18What do we expect or want or really believe can change if we cannot be bothered as an individual
40:25to even go get your voter's card and go to ballot?
40:28People don't think.
40:29Much less if it's a problem, if you think it's a problem, get involved in trying to further
40:34fix it.
40:34What options do we have available to us?
40:47So we need to be a bit more motivated and proactive to actually deal with problems instead of complain
40:53about problems.
40:54How do we avoid manipulation?
40:55You know, we live very well for four years.
40:59We live very well as communities, different places, different areas of Kenya.
41:03We live very well.
41:04And on year five, somehow tribe comes in, language comes in, skin color comes in.
41:11How do we avoid that kind of manipulation that happens towards an election cycle?
41:16First, I would say when we say we live very well, we also should just acknowledge that
41:21although there's, I understand what you mean, right?
41:24In terms of you can live in a community with people of different backgrounds, but I would
41:28not say the majority of people live very well.
41:30I think they live in constant struggle and constant fear and constant pain and constant
41:35hunger, you know, lack of ability to live dignified lives.
41:39If we look at the majority of the population, but yes, we coexist.
41:43We coexist, absolutely.
41:46I think ultimately, like, again, we all need to see how is it that we can, we know we can't
41:53count on the education system because that is designed to continue to perpetuate our brainwashed
41:59minds of feeling like we can't stand up.
42:03If the education system from a young age remains of very poor quality, you're not pumping out
42:10empowered, critical, outspoken youth, right?
42:15You're pumping out, like, subservient, under-supported people who get beaten if they speak up.
42:21That's all a part of keeping your population kind of, what, submissive and suppressed, all
42:28of it.
42:29So I think it's, again, back to us and what are we doing ourselves?
42:32What can we do?
42:33What's available to us?
42:34Can I use my voice to educate?
42:36Can I talk to people around my communities and my tattoos?
42:39Can we bring back, I think that's one of the, you know, the post-election violence photo
42:47tour that Bonnie did across the country.
42:50And it was to say, do we want this?
42:51Is this what we want?
42:52Are we willing to do it?
42:54But again, as long as people cannot feed themselves, your son is here, right?
42:59If you hadn't been able to feed him for three days and someone came to you and said, take
43:05this, utachukua.
43:07So we have to support each other.
43:09We have to care for each other.
43:10We have to keep building our country.
43:12We have to keep holding our leaders accountable to build our country because we have to deal
43:16with the poverty issue, which is a crisis.
43:20If we actually want people to also not be able to be easily manipulated.
43:25So it's about empowering the electorate in order to ensure that they're smarter and make
43:32smarter decisions.
43:34Yeah, but also like as long as, again, if you can't feed yourself and you've not been able
43:39to provide for your family's needs, is it a smart thing to take 200 shillings and go vote
43:43for someone or take 500 shillings and go cause chaos and be able to feed your kid?
43:49Would we call that not smart?
43:50Because you're actually trying to look out for yourself and your personal needs.
43:53I always say nobody is in the ballot with you.
43:57Yes?
43:58Take the 500 shillings.
43:59No, but when we look at violence, when we look at chaos, when we look like things like
44:03that as well, that's also instigated because of poverty, right?
44:08But yes,
44:10I guess maintain some integrity.
44:18I understand the need can always be there.
44:24The need is always there.
44:26But that doesn't mean that you should sell your soul and your vote for it, should you?
44:31No, definitely.
44:32And I think, again, it's up to each and every person because there's no savior.
44:37Hakuna.
44:37I'm sorry, but Mungu Hanakura.
44:41Well, I just see Mamisha violence.
44:44It's not his responsibility.
44:47So I think, again, we should look reflectively at ourselves.
44:53What are we doing?
44:55What can we do?
44:56And if each and every single person takes even a small action a day towards, you know,
45:02civic education, political education, bringing people, encouraging them to vote, looking into
45:07the IBC process, international observers.
45:10There's so many ways different people can get involved.
45:12lawyers coming together.
45:14And some of this is already ongoing, using your social media platforms to help start
45:19conversations, host a church, like ask for a conversation in your church, whatever ways
45:25we can get involved to actually have this conversation on larger scales and help to guide each other
45:30and share ideas.
45:32So I think let's all do our part.
45:37I think as we wind up, would you have some words for especially the youth out there looking to maybe get
45:48involved in activism, looking at the political landscape and feeling hopeless?
45:52How would you encourage them in terms of viewing where Kenya is and where it's going?
46:00I think I've already said a few, touched on a few different elements, but we are the people
46:07we've been waiting for.
46:08We are the change we need to see.
46:11It's our responsibility.
46:13As I mentioned earlier, there's so much sacrifice, blood, sweat, tears, abuse, exploitation,
46:20so much sacrifice that has come before us.
46:23And even though we're facing a lot of challenge and injustice and oppression now, our country has
46:29advanced from previous shackles.
46:33So all of that is due to people who have believed they can make a difference.
46:37So don't underestimate yourself.
46:40You are adequate.
46:42Find a cause near you.
46:44Find somebody that inspires you.
46:46Find something that is interesting that you're passionate about.
46:49Reach out to them.
46:50See how you can get involved.
46:51Use your voice.
46:52Speak up, talk to each other, share ideas, believe in your ideas, and take small actions
46:59towards being a part of the change that we want to see and need to see.
47:03I love that.
47:04I think yours is a call to action in even the smallest and the most minute way, just to
47:13partake in your environment.
47:14Make sure you see change and see growth in the manner in which you want to see in whichever
47:21place you partake, but most especially in the growth of our country.
47:26Absolutely.
47:26All of it has a positive benefit.
47:28And once you start getting involved in things that you can see make a difference, even if
47:33it's in somebody's day, you don't have to change the world.
47:36Change the life of someone around you.
47:38Maybe it's someone you meet on the way home.
47:39Maybe it's someone you work with.
47:40Maybe someone in your home, in your community.
47:43So I think you can start on any scale.
47:45And it doesn't always have to be loud.
47:47Don't do it because you need other people to see what you've done.
47:49Do it because you want to do it.
47:52Thank you so much, Muanase Ahmed, for joining us.
47:56You don't have to do something because other people are seeing it.
47:58Just do it because you want to.
48:01Yes.
48:02Make a change, even in the most small and minute ways.
48:05Thank you so much for tuning in to Straight Talk.
48:09Join us again for another episode.
48:11I'm your host, Yvonne Checke.
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