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STRAIGHT TALK EP 5 - KASMUEL MCOURE - THE RISE OF YOUTH POWER
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00:00Welcome to Straight Talk, where we engage Kenya's brightest minds in the issues facing
00:13our nation.
00:14Today, we're joined by someone who has come to the limelight in the past year and a half,
00:20being a youth activist engaging in civic engagement at the forefront of the protests that happened
00:27in 2020 for Mr. Kasmel Makaure, thank you so much for joining us.
00:37You have come to the limelight within the past year and a half, and I think the first question
00:43anyone would ask you is, how did that come to pass?
00:48That's interesting because that's what people remember at a national scale.
00:52I've been organizing and mobilizing even for protests and walks since I was a student
00:58leader at the Technical University of Kenya.
01:00I was first in the mental health and wellness space, also in my exploits in music and education
01:06and performance.
01:07But interestingly, in 2021, I led the Funguanchi campaign, which was a campaign against the
01:14lockdown, if you remember during Corona times.
01:16Oh, okay.
01:17Yeah.
01:18So, I mean, that might not have gotten national attention, but I would say at an organizing
01:21at a national scale.
01:22Because some of the people who we organized with in 2021 ended up being some of my most consequential
01:30comrades in 2020 and 24.
01:32So that sparked your interest in civic engagement.
01:36It did.
01:38In terms of mobilization, because when I'm looking at last year, I was not looking at it as civic
01:42engagement geared towards a political agenda.
01:46The politics was inspired by a few incidences.
01:52The first time I voted was 2017, and I was in Kisumu at the time.
01:58Those polls were very repressed, especially because the people in Kisumu were against
02:04the regime at the time.
02:05It was quite contested.
02:07Absolutely.
02:08Yes.
02:09And there were body bags being sent.
02:11There was quite a...
02:12We saw very heavy-handed machinations from the state.
02:17Then in 2022, when we lost the election as a Mio, I was part of the young people who
02:22were involved in His Excellency Ryan Laudinga's campaign, but not in the ordinary sense.
02:29That was in 2017?
02:31No, no, no.
02:32In 2022.
02:33Okay.
02:34In 2017, I just voted.
02:35In 2022, I was involved in the campaign, but I was a musician.
02:39So, we were the band that played when His Excellency was launching his presidential bid in Kasarami.
02:45Oh.
02:46So, you then played a part in the campaigns in 2022.
02:50Yes.
02:51Pro-Azimio as they campaigned.
02:53Pro-Azimio.
02:54Yes, yes, yes.
02:55And then we then saw you come to prominence then in 2024 during the protests.
03:01Right.
03:02What inspired you to come forward, especially during the demonstrations?
03:08So, the demonstrations were, I can't say pre-planned, because for me, they were coming
03:15after a very timeless time.
03:16I was going through some personal mental struggles, and I just come from a really difficult year
03:23career-wise.
03:24I'd been working too hard in 2023, multiple jobs, and I think I had a crash out in 2024.
03:30But I remember going for the first demonstration on the 18th.
03:35That day, we were going for demonstrations just because we believe in organizing and mobilizing,
03:43but we didn't go into it thinking, hey, this is the thing we want to do.
03:48I had read the finance bill, and I disagreed with it.
03:50I disagreed with a few key issues.
03:53The eco-levy that meant that pads were going to be more expensive, diapers were going to be
03:58more expensive.
03:59Because in 2023, I had done a project on period poverty in Kibra.
04:05And it's the first time I actually understood, despite being fairly educated, understood the
04:11ramifications of what women and girls go through during the menstruation cycle.
04:17And we went to do just the regular donor things that we do where you take pads.
04:23And we went to this particular school, and they said that, okay, you've brought us pads.
04:27Reusable or not, where are we going to wear them on?
04:30Because we do not even have inner wear.
04:32And yes, if we get them, where are we going to throw them?
04:36So sanitation becomes an issue.
04:37So you realize that it's not just enough for you to take pads.
04:40There's an institutional problem.
04:42Absolutely.
04:43And it had not hit me prior to that.
04:46I'm one of those guys.
04:47I love my sisters very much.
04:48I have two of them.
04:49And I'd take them to school, back to school, because we grew up not having a lot.
04:53So when I started making a bit of money, I'd do shopping for my sisters.
04:56And I'd look at them and would go to the pad aisle, and I'd tell them, take that one that's
05:00written ultra.
05:01I thought that pads just worked like smartphones.
05:03You know, the one that's written ultra, mega.
05:05That's how it works.
05:06But then now, in 2023, that happened.
05:09Then in 2024, there was a march against femicide.
05:13And that's when I knew something.
05:15The country is on the brink of something.
05:17And this is something we need to pay attention to.
05:21I've worked a lot as an ally with feminist organizations and organizing.
05:27And when we went for that walk, remember, there's a girl who had been hacked to death.
05:34And the people who had just, you know, people had reduced the conversation to, people should
05:38not, or it's a cool affair, or whatever.
05:41And I felt that needed to be amplified.
05:43I just did not know.
05:44I was feeling very helpless.
05:46But I walked with my friends for that march.
05:48It was a very peaceful march, but people really, really turned up.
05:51And it was the best organized march I've ever seen in the country.
05:54Then a few months later, the protests happened.
05:57So that was in the eco levy.
05:59There was the taxation on basic commodities like bread, if you can remember.
06:03Fuel was doing crazy numbers at the time.
06:05And there were just very many hidden costs.
06:07So really, there was the temperature leading up to the protests in 2024.
06:14There was just like a simmering in the air of just dissatisfaction within especially Gen Z in Kenya.
06:22Right.
06:23And that's how you came to prominence at the forefront of the protests.
06:27Yeah.
06:28Alongside social media as well.
06:31Right.
06:32And before we get into your role in the protests and what has happened after, social media has really played a really big role.
06:41Yes.
06:42In what has transpired after, and that goes in and along your struggle with mental health.
06:48Right.
06:49Many people struggle with that.
06:52How have you been dealing with that aspect?
06:57Yes.
06:58I mean, just regular self-destruction.
07:02But now, I think after 2024, I realized that it's even more critical now to ensure that I'm in my best shape and best state of mind, as hard as that might be.
07:15Because one, people weaponize everything in this political sphere.
07:18There's no mercy.
07:19Everything is fair game.
07:20People would make fun of anything.
07:21People would make fun of whatever episodes you have.
07:23And so I just decided to, because previously, my content used to be around mental health and wellness.
07:28If anything, I was a consultant just before the protests for big companies as a mental wellness advocate and champion.
07:38We'd do like town halls.
07:40We'd go to cities and just have the community speak to itself.
07:45Currently, beyond sports and music and just deep meditation, I just realized that I no longer have the latitude of being able to just, you know, go out and go on like a self-destructive path.
08:03So there's the rotting when I say self-destruction.
08:05I don't necessarily mean drugs.
08:07I mean, I can't, that's kind of tricky for a lot of people, but even more in this sphere.
08:14How do you deal then with criticism?
08:16Because even before we get into your political background, many young people will look at you and see how much criticism you faced on social media.
08:26And it's not just where your political leanings may be.
08:31It's your appearance, your look, whatever it might be.
08:36Yeah.
08:37And that might be very discouraging to people who face it, maybe not on a scale that you do.
08:43How would you tell, how do you handle that?
08:47I think most of it is stuff that, because I grew up, I was raised funny in the sense that, and I usually advocate that people should be raised around funny people because then you get to navigate a lot.
08:58That's funny.
08:59Yeah.
09:00And quite funny.
09:01I mean, like, humorous, because then even the nicknames that you get, people tell you, oh, you have big eyes or whatever, or you're dark.
09:07You realize that pretty early.
09:09And nowadays, of course, there's a whole discourse around parenting and whatever that I will not get into.
09:14But some of it, yeah, it gets to you, and one day you just wake up, and consistently, because the phone seems to be a world of its own.
09:21And that much hate, I don't think, as human beings, we were meant to consume that much information about yourself consistently by faceless people.
09:31So some of it, it used to be, it used to really affect me in 2024, and then they just got to a point where I said, I will no longer engage.
09:38So I do not go out to, I do not go out to follow people who would trigger me or whatever.
09:46And also the way my social media is organized, at least my public facing accounts, in such a way that the feed does not take me to the regular junk that people have because I don't follow anyone on social media.
09:57So it's tailored to a particular, to the kind of feed I want.
10:02Unless I go looking, it does not come to me.
10:04So unless people, of course, comment hateful things on my, under the posts, which got to a point where I said, I'm not engaging as much as I.
10:12Those are then misconceptions about you, not necessarily who you are.
10:16Yeah, yeah.
10:17Of course, then some people get, it can get really nasty, especially towards me.
10:22I've seen really, really nasty rhetoric going on online.
10:26I've seen propaganda.
10:27I've seen people threaten my life.
10:29People say, like, the really, really hateful stuff.
10:32Family as well.
10:33Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:34Yes, people track you down.
10:35They can find you where you are.
10:37Yeah.
10:38That can be very scary.
10:39It is.
10:40And I know a lot of youth experience that.
10:43Yeah.
10:44Yes.
10:45So I can't necessarily say that I know how to deal with it.
10:47Most of it is because I have a very healthy community and also I have a God who watches over me.
10:52But beyond that, I can't say that I have it figured out.
10:57But definitely experiences that have come from my past, I think, have been able to shape me and give me the mettle to go to navigate whatever this is.
11:08There has to then also be a level of discernment.
11:13Discernment.
11:14Yes.
11:15Because we're seeing that social media is being manipulated a lot.
11:19Yeah.
11:20Especially internet.
11:21Being manipulated a lot to skew people's perspectives.
11:26Yeah.
11:27And we saw that within the protests, which you experience.
11:30Some people say, let's go to state house.
11:32Some people say, let's not.
11:33Or some people say, he's a mole.
11:35He's not.
11:36I've been abducted.
11:37We haven't.
11:38Yeah.
11:39How do we fight that going forward as a youth?
11:42How do we disseminate that misinformation?
11:46I don't think we will deal with that.
11:48We will just learn how to live with it in society.
11:51Because then if we decide to go that route, the route of trying to police social media, especially because, you know, it's different in the sense that it is not based.
12:02A lot of these applications or sites are not based in Kenya and they're not, they do not owe their allegiance to our government or to our people.
12:09And just the way social media is oriented is, it's like a first, it's on a first come, first half basis, but then it's also fast.
12:17I could call it digital fast food.
12:19But we're also using it.
12:20The health does not matter.
12:21We're using it to disrupt information.
12:24Yeah.
12:25And also to, like, what's it called, to almost disintegrate a popular movement.
12:33Yeah.
12:34And we've seen it.
12:35That happened during the protests as well.
12:37Yeah.
12:38How, what mechanisms can we use to fight that?
12:42I think beyond, because the same way it can be used for evil is the same way it can be used for good.
12:48Just the same way people are using it to spread disinformation and misinformation.
12:51It's the same way we used it to organize and pull off the most successful protests the country has ever seen.
12:58The most popular, the most inclusive.
13:00So I think these, these are, these are contradictions that will exist with, within each other.
13:04And eventually, because remember, the internet has not been with us at this scale for that long.
13:09Most of these applications are less than 20 years old.
13:12Do you think we place too much reliance on it?
13:15Probably.
13:16If you imagine Tanzania has had its protests with no internet and managed to organize themselves and find a way to get their voices heard.
13:26Yeah.
13:27Perhaps in Kenya we place too much reliance on social media and the internet.
13:31I don't think so because a lot of the people that we organized with, even from the informal settlements, are not particularly chronically online.
13:37The, it does help that we have the internet and that we can be able to communicate.
13:41That's why I feel like that's why we communicated our gains.
13:44That's why people who could not be able to make it to the streets would vent.
13:48Eventually you cannot prevent human beings.
13:50When the pressure builds to a point where it needs to be released, internet or not, it's going to be released.
13:55So I don't think we've over relied on it.
13:58Some people are using it irresponsibly.
14:01It's the minority that are too loud on social media, especially the people who've built cult followings.
14:06And right now you realize the more graphic, the more gore, the content you put out, the bigger, the juicier that we've gotten to the point where we've commodified each other so bad that the person who gives me the most jarring information, that's the person I would want to.
14:22I don't need to verify, it just needs to be available to me.
14:25It's just our generation.
14:26We have phones.
14:27Just the same way there was a time newspapers were the thing and people would play code words and there was a time people would have televisions.
14:32But for my generation, it becomes expensive.
14:35So this is now our digital playground, especially without these other spaces.
14:39That has come with the issue of monetization, retweets, likes, views, all of that.
14:48We buy into the hype and now I want to see it.
14:51So I realized at some point and I bought into the hype as well.
14:54And that happened, especially amongst the protests.
14:56Everyone kind of fed off this high of the retweets and the audience that was given in terms of saying, oh, this is happening or this is happening without stating specifics.
15:12I'll state specifics, I'll use myself as an example in the sense that I bought into the hype.
15:18Like the moment, and I remember, I don't know if I've said this before, but the blue checkmark was one of our revolution's greatest enemies.
15:25Because at that time, and remember, you used to just, you'd get the blue checkmark and then in one month you're paid $100, you're paid $80, you're paid $200.
15:36Then you'd realize, oh, this could be, and then you'd tweet, I'd tweet something and it would be, I'd just wake up and tweet something and it would blow up.
15:44And then you'd find that after the finance bill, to be honest, personally, I went to the street for the finance bill.
15:49And then, of course, I got popular or I got famous and just went through the regular social media cycle.
15:56Then now you're roped into a gender that you've not thought through.
15:59For the finance bill, I could demystify.
16:01But then for these other ones where people, you find there are several players playing games.
16:05There's civil society who are out on their own agenda.
16:07There's certain sinister players in the background from political parties.
16:11By the time it's getting to us saying that the president has to go, I didn't quite understand what that was.
16:18I should have taken a step back.
16:20But do I regret it? I do not.
16:22Because that's the only way I would have learned.
16:24It's the only way I would have learned the things that I have learned.
16:28So you say that you disagree with the chant, Ruto Must Go.
16:33I don't disagree with it.
16:35I'm just saying my involvement in driving the Ruto Must Go agenda.
16:39Because there's a time, by the time we are doing Ruto Must Go, remember this is July.
16:47The chant changes to Ruto Must Go in July.
16:50Before then, and this is tailored specifically to our revolution.
16:55Because remember, yes, Ruto Must Go was also there in 2023 protests.
16:59But when it's actively let us march to Statehouse, it's around the 27th of June.
17:06And then now we're getting into July.
17:08By the time the agenda is for us to kick out the president from Statehouse, what was the sequence of events that led to that?
17:15Because we said kick out the finance bill.
17:18The finance bill was not assented.
17:19We said dismantle the cabinet.
17:21The cabinet was dismantled.
17:23And then we just kept asking.
17:25And we didn't consolidate our gains.
17:27And then there was no central command center where we would say this is where we wanted to go.
17:31So everybody would just come up with their own idea.
17:33And now it's a collection of big accounts.
17:36So you say this or you're going to get canceled.
17:38Say this.
17:39It was just the herd mentality.
17:41All right.
17:42Okay.
17:43I think let's, I still want to have this conversation of social media influencing, retweets, activism, all of that kind of fall hand in hand with one another.
17:58Nowadays, people are saying, and there's a critique of activists out there, you can't make money from your activism.
18:07You can't live well off your activism.
18:10And it's not just, maybe not just you, but other activists out there who, you know, somebody would say, oh, he lives really well.
18:17He has a big car.
18:18How would you respond to that?
18:21Specifically to me or just the general question?
18:25Just generally.
18:26Okay.
18:27So if we're to think about it generally, it is hard to make money from activism.
18:32Mm-hmm.
18:33Unless you have your papers right, you have your organization, and then now you can attract donor funding.
18:40Should you make money from activism?
18:42Should you be profitable from doing activism for the Republic of Kenya, as an example?
18:50I think you should be able to make a living if, you should be able to make a living or a decent living in whatever sphere of work you choose.
19:01Okay.
19:02If it is a pursuit of reforms, so be it, but then let it not be taking advantage of the working poor.
19:08Because the model that I disagree with because is where we want to, like what I saw, part of what I saw last year is there was photo ops where now we go and posture in front of the crowd.
19:20And then when it's time for the tear gas, people retreat and they go into the Java's and whatever's.
19:25Then when it's time for four o'clock news, then we come back.
19:27And that, I think that is wrong.
19:29Mm-hmm.
19:30If you're in research, for example, if you're doing papers and you're organizing within communities and you've managed to write proposals and attract funding, I don't see a problem with that.
19:39The problem I have is when now we turn that, we become the very thing that we want to destroy, which is empire or unfairness.
19:49But by and large, I didn't get into activism to make money because I've had decent work experience.
19:58I've worked in the top schools, top international schools.
20:01I've consulted as a musician and as a teacher.
20:03I had my own peripatetic practice, which had a decent hourly rate.
20:08So I didn't go to the streets with the aim of making money.
20:12When I realized that there was people making money, I got really mad and I walked away from those people.
20:16And some of them are actually still mad to this time because I exposed and I walked and I didn't turn my back at all.
20:22So that's when I said, OK, now I need to go into political parties because political problems require political solutions.
20:29It cannot be that we are activists for the same thing and we do not have legislative power.
20:35We are not organizing to take political power to become either members of county assemblies or members of the bicameral house, which is both the lower house and the upper house.
20:44If we are not showing meaningful steps towards occupying these positions where we can directly influence legislation by participating in the process, I don't think there's much that we will achieve.
20:59So for you then, in terms of going forward, there must be a drive towards the youth partaking in institutions of leadership.
21:10Yes.
21:11How do we reimagine that kind of leadership?
21:15Because everybody seems to be out to make their own money.
21:21Yeah.
21:22What changes?
21:23I think politics, first of all, must not be looked as a profitable endeavor.
21:28We must love the country for the sake of the country.
21:30We all have to invest in this Kenyan project.
21:34And we must support people who want the best for the Kenyan project, personally.
21:39And I see now everybody's starting to appreciate him.
21:42I'm very glad that I got to work under His Excellency the Right Honorable Raila Odenka,
21:47because he actually loved the country.
21:49He had pure love for the country.
21:51And we need to make more of such people who are not dealers.
21:58Because if we think of politics or leadership in our country as the shortest avenue, you think about most of our third world countries, politics and religion are the most profitable.
22:09Of course, that can be said even in the global-
22:12Across the world.
22:13Across the world.
22:14It can be said across the world.
22:15Yes.
22:16But here, chiefly, we have billionaires who do not have industry.
22:20You have billionaires who do not have a single product.
22:23So how do you become a billionaire if not through looting?
22:27We have to reimagine the issue of campaign financing.
22:30Because if I have to spend, for example, a hundred million for me to get a seat, who will spend a hundred million for the sake of spending a hundred million?
22:39And how do they not recuperate their money?
22:41Yes.
22:42Because now everybody now is thinking of recouping.
22:44Yes.
22:45So if I spend a hundred million of my money, trust me, if I get to the office, that's the other thing that the people are going to do.
22:50That's why if we do not rethink that campaign financing, for example.
22:56But the issue is here, if I spend a hundred million and I get into parliament and I can make five hundred million, I have no motivation to change that legislation at all.
23:08Right.
23:09And there is a severe compromise of every single member of parliament that we have in Kenya today.
23:15How do you change that if you are elected?
23:18In the first place, first of all, we need to inspect these affirmative action funds, like CDF. Consolidate CDF. Consolidate CDF. Put it in one fund.
23:30There's no use for a government to give money to another arm of government.
23:36So the people pay taxes to the government. Government gives... Treasury executive gives money to legislature. Legislature gives this money back to the people. People pay it back to the government.
23:48There's no need. Just consolidate this fund. Collapse it. Then make education free, for example.
23:53But then money has to be taken away from the executive. This is a conversation that's a bit futuristic because I know it will not happen in 2027. Neither will it happen in 2032 with the direction of things.
24:05If the Treasury still... If the President still has money, it becomes really hard for you to convince members of parliament not to give in to the whims of the President.
24:14If we have an independent Treasury, for example, and these are proposals that we are still even discussing within the Youth League.
24:21If we can have money and the Treasury that is independent, that nobody can just wake up and sign a loan on behalf of Kenyans.
24:28Nobody can just wake up and pass unfair legislation or just withdraw. You see the way people say that on this particular election...
24:33Someone walked away with a million or a hundred million.
24:37Or on the election day that we lost 12 billion. That should not happen if we do not have...
24:41So these are some of the things that need to happen, for example.
24:44Then it takes away the allure of you just getting in here for profit of self,
24:50but also ensure that the politicians are well paid and that they have good terms in such a way, just the Singaporean way,
24:56which you ensure now that we'll give you a wage that's decent, that allows you...
25:00That's enough for your needs and just a bit of luxury, but not for your greed.
25:04But also we lack a leadership culture, right?
25:08Mm-hmm.
25:09We've been told how people are bribed in toilets...
25:12Yeah.
25:13...several amounts not to get into the technicalities.
25:16Yeah.
25:17It's also that our leaders may lack a bit of integrity or love for their people, their constituents.
25:27What do you think?
25:28In all honesty, I will sympathize with our leaders.
25:32Mm-hmm.
25:33The current...
25:34Because I've seen politicians up close and I've seen the citizens up close,
25:38the current dispensation which we have dehumanizes even these politicians,
25:42which in turn leads them to dehumanize the people that they're supposed to serve.
25:45Because if I see you and all you expect from me is 200 shillings or 1,000 shillings,
25:50I do not need to waste my time trying to convince you with ideology.
25:54I do not need to waste my time coming to overture media.
25:56So the handout culture...
25:58The handout culture...
25:59...facilitates...
26:00It does facilitate bad leadership because somebody might honestly want to change things,
26:04but then we will not give you the time of day to explain to us what are these reforms
26:09or institutional systemic changes that you want to institute without you giving us handouts.
26:15So you just...
26:16You get swallowed up by the tide.
26:18So it needs...
26:19We need to change, one, the zeitgeist, the spirit of our times,
26:21and we also need to change the culture that we have, the software culture.
26:25I could...
26:26Which culture?
26:27Expound on it.
26:28The culture for us as a people for expecting Moishimiwa's idea.
26:32That handout culture, it needs to be weeded out.
26:34It is not isolated because it is caused by social forces, social political forces in the sense that
26:40if someone is poor, you have to give them bread first before you give them ideology.
26:45And they're poor because the system is not working to the advantage.
26:48There is unemployment, massive unemployment.
26:50We've not created safety nets even in terms of healthcare and whatnot.
26:54A lot of people are still living below the poverty line.
26:57First, we have to figure out how we can elevate them to the point where now we can reason.
27:03Because remember, even part of the people who went to the streets last year,
27:06they went to the street because they had nothing to lose but their miserable lives.
27:09Until we can make them at least have something worth living for, then we can change the conversation.
27:14But our leaders have never tried to elevate us.
27:17Neither have we ever tried to ask our leaders to elevate us.
27:21How do we change that mentality?
27:23If every time any person I vote for is a person who gave me 200 shillings before I went to vote,
27:30or 500 shillings, because that's the only change I see within my environment.
27:35How do we change the electorate's thinking?
27:39That will very heavily depend on service delivery.
27:43Because even part of the reason why the electorate demands that 200, that 500 shilling note, that 1,000 shilling note,
27:50is they know that the next time they're going, they, one, do not know the next time they're going to see their leader.
27:55Because you've elected me somewhere over Chini with my whole county in Nyatike.
27:58So you say service delivery, but if there's no service going to happen, there's no standard then.
28:02If no service will happen, we will not change, we will not change that turnout culture.
28:06Because how then will I ever feel, Nguvya Serikali, how will I ever feel my Moishimuya's presence?
28:11Does that make sense?
28:12So therefore, the only way I can interact, the only tangible thing I can see,
28:16because if we erect schools and we show them a pipeline where this is where we have our schools,
28:21we have our healthcare systems, and there's an assurance that this is the pipeline you will go to once you even graduate,
28:26then I can say, oh, you know, we started like this, and this is where we're going.
28:30But for several people, you find leaders, someone has been an MP for 20 years, they still do not have time accrues.
28:35So the person who brings the road then becomes a messiah, they become a saviour.
28:39And the road has never come still.
28:41Yeah, so they're just like, oh,
28:42What would you do different if you were running as an MP?
28:49First, you know, people make it look like it's easy to run for elective office.
28:54Even an MCA, it's very hard. It's a very difficult seat to get.
28:58So first, I think that's a point which young people need to start, we need to learn and get exposed to.
29:03Because from my sitting with politicians, I've seen that this is a craft that requires social investment.
29:10First, we even need to make sure that we are electable.
29:13Then once we're elected, we can see what to do.
29:16Are you electable?
29:17I would hope so, but I'm still a ways, I'm still far, because I'm still learning, I'm still meeting people.
29:24What do you feel as a standard for you is electable?
29:30First, you need to be well-educated, because education helps you, one, see things objectively, but also it enables you to be empathetic to other people's struggles.
29:43Okay.
29:44First, two, you need to have a heart for the people.
29:48And so that's why you will not, I will not go and run in a constituency whose interests I do not know or whose interests I do not have.
29:57So it just cannot be that because I have money, then I can run, which has been the case.
30:01Where I'm like, just look for money, but I think we need to be educated, we need to have the needs of the hearts of the people.
30:06But we also need to want to change the Kenyan project so badly enough that we are willing to invest our time in it.
30:15Then that's when I'll make legislation that is fair, that's when I will look out for the rights of the people,
30:23that's when donors or donor funding will not look like something attractive for my own pocket, but for the betterment of our community.
30:30Then three, you also need to build a following that is solid enough.
30:36You know, as David Ndee said, he said a very annoying thing, but it's the most, he's one of the people who radicalized me politically,
30:43because he said politics is a contact sport.
30:45You have to be in touch with the people.
30:48So I have to, once I have identified the people that I think I want to represent, I have to present myself to them and tell them these are my ideas, sharpen contradictions.
30:57Then I can see if I am electable.
31:01Okay.
31:02Yeah.
31:03Where, where would you imagine yourself running just out of curiosity?
31:07I currently, I'm still mapping out the data because now you see I also exist in a political party.
31:13I might think that I want to run, but then the party might think you would be better on this other position.
31:21You'd be better in this other envoy.
31:23Currently, I'm just, I've devoted, I've devoted my, at least my twenties, the remainder of my twenties to unlearn,
31:30but also to really, really strengthen the politics that I come from, which is the orange democratic movement.
31:35So I'm not too keen, I'm not too keen on where I want to run.
31:39I think of myself as an urban person, but what if change needs to happen in my home, my home village?
31:47What if that's a place that would really need my voice?
31:50But we need to get to the point where in Canada I would just sit and say, no, I want to run in.
31:54But you know, we have, we have this issue, right?
31:57Yeah.
31:58Where somebody, I mean, you live in Nairobi, but you vote in orchards somewhere else,
32:05and you don't really engage in what's going on there.
32:07Yeah.
32:08Perhaps it's to say, you know, where you live is where you should engage yourself.
32:14And I agree with you.
32:15I agree with you.
32:16I think we need to see more of that.
32:18Yes.
32:19But also, you know, the electorate is also really smart in certain situations.
32:25They will just tell you, no, but you do not know the struggles of this place.
32:28You do not come from here.
32:29You do not live here.
32:30Yeah.
32:31You need to, you need to, if you're going to vie, vie for a place which you have passion for.
32:35A place where you go to, a place which you deeply understand.
32:38Because otherwise you'll just think that, oh, what I need for these people is just to build churches
32:42or build whatever, what they need is drinking water in schools.
32:46Yeah.
32:47As an ODM member, I know there's a very interesting battle coming up for Nairobi.
32:54We have several young members proposed to lead the capital city.
33:01Yeah.
33:02How do you feel about the proposed battle ahead?
33:07You see, the good thing about existing in ODM is that there will be nominations.
33:11So you could have your feelings or whatever.
33:14But we intend to have free and fair nomination process.
33:19The person who wins is a person I'll have thoughts about.
33:22Because currently, anyone could be governor.
33:25Yeah.
33:26You could be governor.
33:27I could be governor.
33:28Yeah.
33:29Nick could be governor.
33:30So it doesn't matter.
33:31The person who wins the nomination of the party is a person who will throw our support behind.
33:36I really like your support of ODM and your belief in its idea behind the processes of how it should operate.
33:48It isn't how many other political parties operate.
33:53Yeah.
33:54And I think if there's one thing His Excellency taught us is belief in the process.
34:00Because remember, he knew how corrupt the Canadian judiciary is.
34:06This is an open secret and even the president of the apex court has said part of the things that bedevil the judiciary is high corruption.
34:16But he still went through the court processes.
34:18So that's what I've learned is belief in the processes.
34:22People might have their doubts.
34:23They might have their qualms.
34:24But we need enough people to believe in that process because that's the only way we can change it.
34:28We have to believe that we will have free and fair nominations.
34:32If enough people believe that, then if we see a case of deviation from the norm, we will say that no, then we will not stand this.
34:40But I think I'm still quite optimistic that due process will be followed, specifically even with the orange democratic movement.
34:49Because I've seen there's been a great deal of progress around that.
34:53We had elections last year and this year.
34:56We had some challenges in very, very minute areas.
34:59But those have been amicably resolved.
35:02And if anything, the reason which makes it even easier is it's the most compliant party, according to the Office of the Registrar of Political Parties.
35:11So seeing that culture that has been built over 20 years, I think for us as young people, it's our responsibility now to even rejuvenate it even further and take it to the next 20.
35:20You say belief, but there is still a lot of voter apathy amongst not just the youth, but in Kenya in general.
35:30How do we get more people to believe in the system?
35:34It will be hard. And that's why I keep on saying that we will need a person who believes in the country more than they do believe in themselves, a person who's also paid the price.
35:43The thing about it, and I was even thinking this is a confession I have to make, is Raila was the reason I used to wake up to go and vote.
35:50For the two times that I voted for him, the two times I've been eligible to vote, he used to be the guy.
35:55I used to wake up and look for Raila on the ballot.
35:57Now, who am I going to look for at the ballot? So the person who's going to be able, if you think you've seen apathy, if we're not careful as a country, we will see even worse apathy in this upcoming election.
36:08And that's affecting as well the voter registration drive as well and getting more of the youth to register to vote.
36:15Right. Because I've even seen some really, really creative incentives where people have said, even certain shops have said that we will give you a particular discount on our products if you take up the vote.
36:26The amount of people who are on the streets vis-a-vis the people who are participating in this continuous voter registration, there's far less people registering.
36:41Like in Nairobi, we've only seen 4,000 so far. Do you remember we had people in the thousands on the streets?
36:47Well, there's complaints about tampering in terms of voter registration, but yes, there is some apathy going on.
36:54But think about it. The tampering cannot happen yet. That's why I keep on saying we have to push. We need to ensure that we get...
37:02You have a belief in the system.
37:04I have a radical belief in the country that we can make it work. We cannot stay back just because we think it's going to be rigged.
37:10If that is what would happen, Rayla would never have offered himself up for election after 2007.
37:15It was the most blatant disregard of these things. But we have to constantly have such incapacitating optimism to the point where it will engulf whatever forces of darkness we think there be.
37:27I listen to you and I hear ideas and ideology coming from not ODM, but certain other candidates that are putting themselves up as potential presidential candidates in 2027.
37:42Do you imagine that ODM as a party or even you yourself would say, actually, let's put aside our political affiliations and let's just support this person who reflects the views of Kenyans?
37:58So that's an interesting one because political parties are formed chiefly with the intention of capturing power and administering state.
38:10Yes. And so for you to administer state, it means you need to put your best foot forward.
38:15Nobody forms a political party so that they can lose an election.
38:18And that's why even here when my party leader, Dr. Burro Genghis speaks, he says that ODM will no longer be in the opposition.
38:25We will be the party that will form government.
38:27And if you think about our odds, our odds are pretty, pretty, they're looking pretty healthy in this coming election.
38:34So it's up to, and that's why I was saying that the person who will take over the country does not need, we do not need, we have very, we have a copious amount of idealists.
38:44We need a person who will, one, have the best interests of the country at heart, and two, a person who will mobilise and build consensus.
38:53Currently in the orange democratic movement, we're confident in that because we are not devoid of leaders.
38:57We have quite a couple of people who could vie for leadership under the orange democratic movement and still capture power.
39:05Also, we are looking into, going by the words of my party leader, into being in a coalition that will administer state.
39:13So, if someone looks at it because, remember, it's the rivers that feed into the lake.
39:18We do not ask a lake to now go and form estuaries somewhere down there.
39:22If there are people who believe that they have the best ideal for the country, or they have the best chances of winning the presidency.
39:29That's why even you've heard some of our leaders say, even the president, if he's seeking a re-election,
39:34he is invited to come and submit himself to the processes of the orange democratic movement.
39:38And if they win, then they become our presidential candidate.
39:43So, we will not, it's like telling us, for this thing that we've been building for 20 years,
39:48let's just throw it away so that we can go on the whims of a populist candidate.
39:53I don't think it would be prudent or wise to do that.
39:58Okay.
40:00Yeah.
40:01Five minutes with the president.
40:04Yeah.
40:05What would you tell him?
40:06How would you advise him?
40:09Um, as if, first of all, I just tell him, as a race, I've been big words on.
40:15And, you know, I've only met the president twice in my life.
40:17I've met him in Aldrich, and I met him in Addis during the campaign.
40:21And we've had very brief conversations then.
40:23But I don't know why people get this idea that I'm always in cahoots with the president.
40:27Not in helicopters flying around with the president.
40:29That is, no, that is with the prime minister.
40:31Oh, the prime minister.
40:32Excuse me.
40:33And with him, and I told him everything, and I'm actually very glad that in his last year,
40:39he mentored me.
40:40Mm-hmm.
40:41At the time when young people were just calling him names and whatnot, I'm so glad.
40:45That is, I usually say that's one of the most consequential decisions I have made in
40:48my adult life.
40:50That, that one only comes close to, to, to baptism.
40:55Mm-hmm.
40:56Um, but with the president of the country, I think, because we're also getting into an electoral
41:00period.
41:01I'd tell him to let it trickle down.
41:05I know that his economic model was from, was the bottom up.
41:09And it's a pretty solid ideology if you look at it.
41:11If we just strip away our bias.
41:13It's, it's, it's, it's a, a model that's supposed to uplift us socially.
41:19Uh, it's, it's very welfarist, um, very, very central leaning.
41:23But we need the resources and the benefits and the perks of government not to just stay
41:28at the upper echelons.
41:29They need to trickle down and get to the people.
41:31Let's just see more service delivery.
41:33Mm-hmm.
41:34investment in the youth.
41:35Let us see empowerment and raising of new leaders, because a lot of people are trying
41:39to block, um, the upcoming talent.
41:42Uh, it would be nice to see reforms specifically.
41:45Other people can tell the president other things.
41:47But personally, I have a burden for police reforms and compensation of victims of police
41:53brutality.
41:54That's what I would focus on.
41:56There's a panel that's currently being taken to court.
41:58It's been constituted under Professor Makao Mutua, and it has several members like Akina
42:02Gabriel Okuda, Akina Palachar, those individuals.
42:06They're being fought left, right, and center.
42:08But I think the work that they're doing, one, in honoring Raila Odinga's legacy, because
42:13this is something he was very keen on.
42:15He didn't just want compensation for victims of police brutality from 2024.
42:19He wanted us to go all the way back, even from 2017, find these families, give them
42:23some sort of reprieve.
42:25And the whole point of this panel of compensation is, one, acknowledge that these atrocities
42:31happened.
42:32Two, enact legislation, because the principles have members of parliament legislation that
42:39ensures our country does not sink and descend to such pits.
42:43And three, amortize and have a form of financial reprieve.
42:49Yes, we might not bring back their lives, but at least acknowledge and give them some sort
42:53of ophidia.
42:55Then, in terms of police reforms, just ensure that even the policemen, because a lot of the
43:02time, it cannot be that we want to send the worst, we call them the worst things, while
43:08they put their lives on the line.
43:10Ensure that even their living conditions, they can just be improved.
43:13Because they're humans just like us.
43:15Ensure they have better pay, and they have uniforms, and at the very least, if we can
43:19have body cams, so that this can be part of the reforms.
43:22Part of the other reforms that I'm suggesting is, if a policeman commits a crime that is
43:27heinous, the officer of the commanding station should be charged alongside.
43:30So personally, I just look at two things, police reform and compensation of victims of police
43:36brutality.
43:37I'm hoping that other people will raise other things, but those two are my chief things.
43:41Yeah.
43:42Very nice.
43:43Yes.
43:44So you, as we wrap up, you are now a very prominent youth leader within ODM.
43:54Yeah.
43:55I'm sure you're feeling very hopeful about that, heading towards 2027.
44:00Yes.
44:01Yes.
44:02I think, I'm just a delegate of the Orange Democratic Movement.
44:05I'm just very outspoken.
44:06We're still going for some elections, and I will know my fate next year.
44:10But I'm still committed to the party.
44:13I believe that there will be free and fair and credible, justifiable, all those things
44:17that we stand for.
44:18But I'm confident that where the Orange Democratic Movement will be, is where the state will be
44:23when it started in 2027.
44:25And so I just urge young people, one, to join the Orange Democratic Movement, or join political
44:30parties.
44:32Be, take a front seat in the governance of your country.
44:36It cannot be that we want to just participate as voters.
44:39Let us offer ourselves up for leadership.
44:41I think what you're saying really is that we can just tweet.
44:44Yes.
44:45If you want to see a change within your environment, you really have to partake within the political
44:51system.
44:52Yes.
44:53We must.
44:54We must.
44:55We cannot.
44:56You know, just the cliché poem was based in the communist times when first they came
45:02for the communist, but I did not say a word because I was not one.
45:05And they came for everybody.
45:06And they will come for the socialist that I wasn't.
45:08They came for the industrialist, for the lobbyist, for whoever.
45:11Then they will come for me.
45:12And then they will come for you and you'll have no interest.
45:15So would that be the same when somebody says, that's like a small joined ODM?
45:20You know, I don't think so.
45:22Joining the orange democratic movement, one, is part of us having a vibrant democracy.
45:26Because a lot of the people have had reservations and said, oh, this and that.
45:29But it cannot be that the revolution that was leaderless was hinged upon one individual.
45:34So it cannot be the 10 months later that why aren't there new voices emerging?
45:39You know, if we had, we should have had the support and that said, okay, now we're giving
45:43this responsibility, then don't join a political party.
45:46We will form a political party and you will lead it.
45:48You will head it.
45:49We would not need, because we would have 14 million votes.
45:52That way we would not need to negotiate with anybody.
45:54Was it a betrayal, you think, joining ODM?
45:56No, no, no, no, no, not at all.
45:57It was an act of good conscience.
45:59And I would do it earlier.
46:00I would do it in June, actually.
46:02But knowing what I know, I did it.
46:04I joined in October.
46:05Should have joined in June.
46:06Like, but you know, I've always been an ODM member.
46:08It's just that I-
46:10You are now a vocal member.
46:12I was a vocal member, one.
46:13But two, I was also close to His Excellency, Right Honorable Raila Odinga.
46:17I think if I knew what I know now, I would have met him earlier.
46:22I would have joined him earlier.
46:24Because the backlash doesn't come close to the stuff I've learned from him.
46:27It doesn't come close to the mentorship.
46:29It doesn't come close to the fount of wisdom that is the Raila Odinga Academy of Leadership.
46:33I think these critiques are really based on the fact that there's a mistrust.
46:37Yes.
46:38Every single person, well, not every single person, that's Ms. Amin speaking.
46:43But many of the people who came to the forefront and arose out of the protests in June 2024 have been accused of wanting to gain personally from the protests.
47:02Alongside you joining a political party and now having a very prominent voice, having met your political mentor, you seem to have benefited of the protests.
47:12I met my life as a hero.
47:14Man, if that's a benefit.
47:15You know, Raila Odinga for me was a hero.
47:17He's always been a figure in my life.
47:18He is a hero.
47:19He's actually a job.
47:20And he is, that's like someone meeting Superman.
47:25The people who are never going to meet him.
47:27The people who spent his last year insulting him.
47:29And now they're just writing poetry day in, day out.
47:33That still doesn't lend to the critique.
47:35No, no, no.
47:36I'm going back to that because I get very excited when I'm speaking about him.
47:39I miss him so much.
47:40If there is, first of all, there's no such thing as a front line.
47:50This thing is a circle.
47:51People should emerge.
47:52People should consistently emerge.
47:56Because it cannot be that you outsource the betterment of your country to one person and say that you have mistrust.
48:01Your mistrust will not lower the price of bread.
48:04You have to consistently fight.
48:06The tag was tribeless, leaderless, what was the other?
48:10Something.
48:11Fearless.
48:12Fearless.
48:13Whatever it is.
48:14People retreated to their tribal.
48:15Part of the insults I've gotten were tribal.
48:17Then people were saying they were leaderless.
48:19But they've been dragging me for the past one year.
48:22I don't want to say it, but it seems then that I was somewhat consequential.
48:27Or the lack of leaderlessness was a detriment to the movement.
48:32No, it's of its purpose, to be honest.
48:34That amorphous organization really, really saved a lot of young people.
48:37But then we should have not been afraid to take the reins of leadership.
48:41We should have just said that now we're instituting this.
48:43How would you have taken them?
48:45I would have, with our people, the people that we were organizing with,
48:49we should have been braver and said that we are the leaders of this movement
48:52and this is how we want to interface with the government.
48:55Because people are saying that they are afraid of compromise.
48:58Ah, a lot of these people are on very dubious payrolls and what not.
49:04It does not prevent the republic from moving,
49:06but people are not brave enough to state their allegiance.
49:10I was brave enough to say that I am joining first.
49:12I am going to devote my life to Ryle Odinga for the rest of his days.
49:17That's what I remember.
49:18It's a commitment I made to him for as long as he's alive.
49:20I have put my ambitions aside.
49:21I just want to learn and to defend his legacy.
49:24Two, I said I'm joining the Orange Democratic movement and I did that very loudly.
49:27But remember, the criticism was not as heavy for people who joined other parties.
49:31And these people were still hobnobbing with these politicians.
49:34As Kenyans, if you get into the political circle, you'll realize that one,
49:38there are no, the cliché, there are no permanent enemies in politics.
49:41And two, it's about consensus building.
49:43It's not about you, it does not change.
49:46What people don't seem to understand is I did not change my ideology.
49:50I just changed my strategy.
49:52I was organizing amorphously.
49:53Now I'm organizing a political party.
49:55But it's still, the goal still remains.
49:57For me, we need to have police reforms and we need to have the compensation of victims of police brutality.
50:02That, whoever promises me that, I do not care.
50:06That's the person I'll go to.
50:07So if this broad-based government was to fail to reflect the policies that you speak of,
50:18it would mean that you would then withdraw from ODM?
50:22From the broad-based.
50:23Because the ODM is just a political party.
50:26It's a political party in whose ideology I believe in.
50:28Remember, I was leading 63 organizations and amongst them political parties.
50:33I would have joined some of them because they have some of these popular figureheads.
50:36I would have joined some of them.
50:37But I did an analysis and said, this is the particular political party I want to join.
50:41Yeah, so we will reform it from here where we are in this youth league.
50:45We're not devoid of ideas or of bright people.
50:48And so I'm open to learning.
50:50Yeah.
50:51I like that idea.
50:52I think people in Kenya, we've seen a lot of political party hopping.
50:57Yeah.
50:58You know.
50:59Yes.
51:00All around.
51:01But you're really saying my blood is over here.
51:05I mean, I'm a chunga guy.
51:06And if there's an issue, we shall reform it from within until we get where we need to go.
51:12Yeah.
51:13Okay.
51:14All right, then.
51:15Any person out there who wishes to enter into youth leadership, how would you tell them to proceed?
51:24This is a good time because the country is fairly calm.
51:27Meet a lot of people.
51:30Politics is a contact sport.
51:32Meet the people.
51:33Face the people.
51:34Get over your fear because there will never be a time when it's just enough to be on screens.
51:39You have to get on the ground.
51:41Form a team.
51:42It doesn't have to be a big team.
51:43Find people who believe in you and share with them the vision and let them walk with you.
51:48Because that's the other thing I didn't do when I established.
51:50I didn't establish a team when I needed to establish a team.
51:53Don't worry about the money.
51:54Get your ideology right.
51:55Study, study, study.
51:56It is the duty.
51:57It is the work of anyone who's a revolution to study.
52:00Don't be stupid.
52:01I'm sorry.
52:02That's a crazy statement.
52:03Yeah.
52:04Don't worry about the money.
52:05Don't worry about the money.
52:06I would imagine the money is everything.
52:08Don't worry about the money.
52:09How do you begin?
52:10Don't worry about the money.
52:11Yes.
52:12I don't have money.
52:13Yeah.
52:14That's what many people say.
52:15Yes.
52:16I'm a leader.
52:17I'm telling you I do not have it.
52:18If I had it, I wouldn't be wasting my time.
52:20You think I like to be dragged online by random people.
52:23Do you use a one, two, three, four, nine, six, passing propaganda?
52:27No, you don't.
52:28Your heart really needs to be there for the people in such a way that you can learn how
52:32to fight for people without fighting them.
52:34So, study.
52:36Understand what it is that you want.
52:38What will it take?
52:39Probably it will take me 40 years to achieve what I want to achieve, to be the kind of
52:44leader I want to be.
52:45And maybe I might not even achieve it.
52:47I might not be the thing.
52:49I might not make it into elective office.
52:51I might not.
52:52But my heart has to ensure that it does not matter whether or not I am in office.
52:59I should be able to pursue these changes that I seek.
53:02So, for a young person, let's not even just prioritize the money.
53:05It will come.
53:06Money follows ideas.
53:07Okay.
53:08Yeah.
53:09And as we wrap up, I also would like to ask you, what policies should we see you pursuing
53:16on behalf of the youth if you were to be elected as a leader?
53:21Personally, right now I'm only focused on police brutality and the compensations of victims
53:25of police brutality.
53:26That is the one thing that I'm really keen on.
53:30I believe that other people should be keen on education.
53:32They should be keen on the audits of audience debt.
53:34They should be keen on corruption and whatnot.
53:36But the thing that I am most passionate about, because the Orange Democratic Movement
53:39has borne the brand of police brutality, is that at least for the Revolutionary Youth
53:44League at the Orange Democratic Movement, if we can have reforms in the police service
53:48and compensation of victims of police brutality, that would be a first.
53:52That's the thing which I will give topmost priority.
53:55Thank you, Kasma.
53:57I really enjoy, or have enjoyed having this conversation with you about the issues of our
54:02nation.
54:03Right.
54:04You are a very inspiring person, somebody who pushes through, not just critique online,
54:11critique in your personal environment, your professional environment, but just always
54:17inspiring.
54:18Thank you for having me, Yvonne.
54:20As are you, I really enjoyed the show.
54:21Asante.
54:23Thank you for watching Straight Talk, where we engage with Kenya's brightest minds.
54:29Tune in again.
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