- 4 days ago
STRAIGHT TALK EP 6 - IRUNGU NYAKERA ON VISION, STRATEGY AND LEADERSHIP
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00:00:00Welcome to Straight Talk, where we engage Kenya's brightest minds in the issues facing our nation.
00:00:12Today, we are privileged to be joined by a 2027 gubernatorial aspirant, former permanent secretary,
00:00:21board member of KICC and KEMSA, Mr. Irungu Nyakera. Thank you so much for joining us.
00:00:28And thank you so much for hosting me.
00:00:31You've had an illustrious career up until right now. Perhaps tell us, what's a highlight for you?
00:00:39No, thank you very much. I think for me, I've been, I've gone through the public sector and the private sector.
00:00:48I started out from New York, where I was an investment banker with Citigroup in Wall Street.
00:00:56All the way to London?
00:00:57All the way to London, Canary Wharf, Steelwood City Group, came back to Kenya with NIC Bank,
00:01:06rose to managing director level within the group, then moved back to London with a part of DFID,
00:01:14heading East and Southern African infrastructure, then came back to Kenya with Equity Bank as a managing director for investments,
00:01:23and after that joined government.
00:01:26That was really my entry into government as principal secretary for transport.
00:01:33I was 33 years old then, did quite a bit in transport, including the SGR from the beginning to the end,
00:01:43then moved on to, was moved to the National Treasury, was a PS for planning and statistics.
00:01:49And after that, I've been, I've held various positions in government chairmanship.
00:01:57Initially, first as a chairman for national tea reforms, and then chairman for KEMSA, and then chairman for KACC.
00:02:07On the private sector, beyond now the banking side, I'm also a businessman in Nairobi and around.
00:02:18So, when I look at my career, I see it more as fully, very well understood,
00:02:30I understand both the private sector and the public sector very well.
00:02:34Of course, with that then, it's also the educational background,
00:02:37which I did my undergraduate at Stanford University in California on mathematics and industrial engineering,
00:02:45and my master's at Oxford University in the UK on business.
00:02:52So, that's my background.
00:02:54Very well rounded.
00:02:55When I look at your bio, I'm like,
00:02:57what would inspire someone with such an illustrious and profitable private business,
00:03:06encourage him to then step into political life?
00:03:10No, when I look at the, I've always been in positions of leadership.
00:03:16From high school, I was a school captain, I was a starry hair boy center.
00:03:20To university, where I was a student president.
00:03:24And later on, when I was with the different positions that I've held.
00:03:28And I always feel that it is us who have to come forth to present options for leadership for this country.
00:03:40And unfortunately, when those who are capable don't present themselves,
00:03:46the ones who are least capable will present themselves with a lot of confidence,
00:03:51and people will elect them.
00:03:52I think also there's this aspect of everyone waiting for leaders to step up.
00:03:57Yes.
00:03:57But leaders are in all walks of our life.
00:04:00You need a leader in mathematics, a leader in architectural science.
00:04:04You need a leader in every aspect to represent your interests.
00:04:08Absolutely.
00:04:09Absolutely.
00:04:10And we always say there's nobody who will come and pick you from your house and make you a leader.
00:04:16You have to step up and come out and actually tell the people what exactly you want to achieve.
00:04:25And I have a friend of mine called Jim Nambaru.
00:04:28Jim Nambaru is one of the formidable investment bankers in town from back in the days with Dian Blair.
00:04:34And Jim Nambaru stepped out in 2013 to run for the gubernatorial position in Nairobi.
00:04:42And a lot of people felt that Jim Nambaru would be the right candidate.
00:04:46But for one reason or another, Jim Nambaru did not make it.
00:04:51So I was asking him, there's a time when we were discussing about the Nairobi and the issues around Nairobi,
00:04:57and he told me, you know, for me, I can criticize Nairobi as much as I can because I did present myself.
00:05:04I presented alternatives, but I was not given that opportunity.
00:05:08So people can never ask me, why am I making noise?
00:05:12Yes, I'm making noise because I actually feel that I had presented an alternative.
00:05:17So really what you're saying is it's one thing to critique.
00:05:20Yes.
00:05:20But it's another to really step up to the plate of leadership.
00:05:26But even to critique, you see, when you critique, you also have to ask yourself, what have you done about it?
00:05:32If you're saying that Nairobi is being run poorly, then what have you done?
00:05:37If you're not running yourself, it's okay.
00:05:39But are you championing something?
00:05:42Are you supporting somebody or a cause on somebody that is running?
00:05:47But if neither of those, then you really have no reason to complain or talk because your one vote is good.
00:05:55But if you can actually mobilize and rally people around a cause, then you're building the nation.
00:06:02So now you find yourself here.
00:06:062027, aspirant for governor.
00:06:09That must inform why you decided or have decided to run.
00:06:13Yes.
00:06:14Yes.
00:06:14Yes.
00:06:16Yes, because you see, I'm born and bred in Nairobi.
00:06:19Born in Kamukunji, constituency, Kenyago area is a slum in Kamukunji.
00:06:27I went to school from there and that's how I actually ended up going to primary school at Sarehe
00:06:32because it's just walking distance from where I was born.
00:06:36And I have witnessed the issues and challenges of Nairobi and I understand them very well.
00:06:42I've been to all these cities, traveled to, I think, over 40 countries, many cities.
00:06:49And when I see that Nairobi is not working, then I ask myself, why don't I then present myself?
00:06:59Because I know what makes cities work.
00:07:02Okay.
00:07:02So you say you know the issues of Nairobi.
00:07:04Tell us maybe five points.
00:07:06What are the issues of Nairobi that you can identify?
00:07:09The biggest issue of Nairobi is actually a leadership issue.
00:07:12Everything else is after that.
00:07:14Because it's the leaders who shape the direction.
00:07:18It's the leaders who come up with a vision for the city.
00:07:22It's the leaders who put together a team that can deliver on the vision.
00:07:26If you talk about the key issues of Nairobi beyond the leadership,
00:07:30that the leadership should be the ones that is resolving them.
00:07:34We have issues of settlements.
00:07:36Over 60% of Nairobians live in settlements.
00:07:39These settlements have no access roads.
00:07:42They have no lighting.
00:07:44They have no toilets or sanitation services.
00:07:50They have no support services for the people living there.
00:07:55They have no public spaces for children to play in.
00:07:58And nobody actually seems to be presenting us with actually the plan.
00:08:06Okay.
00:08:06We can go into informal settlements.
00:08:08Something else you would want to tackle?
00:08:10The second one is the issue of transport.
00:08:12Yeah.
00:08:12The congestion in Nairobi.
00:08:14The numbers, the city is growing.
00:08:16Right now we have about 4.5 million people.
00:08:18In 10 years we'll have 8.8 million people in Nairobi.
00:08:22So double the population.
00:08:23The population.
00:08:24Okay.
00:08:24What are we doing about it?
00:08:26Already we are congested.
00:08:28It's choking, the city.
00:08:30And when you talk about transport and infrastructure,
00:08:32we're also talking about the planning around them.
00:08:34The planning, absolutely.
00:08:35The planning for the...
00:08:37Construction and infrastructure.
00:08:38Yes, the construction and the infrastructure around it.
00:08:40We are talking about the sewer.
00:08:42We are talking about the water.
00:08:43We are talking about street lighting.
00:08:45Okay.
00:08:45Number three.
00:08:46So those are the key.
00:08:47Then you go to number three.
00:08:48We are talking about issues of health.
00:08:50Okay.
00:08:51Nairobi, again, we have a nighttime population of about 4.5 million
00:08:55and 8.5 million during the day.
00:08:59So meaning that we have 4 million addition who come to Nairobi during the day
00:09:05who don't live in Nairobi, who also consume our services within health.
00:09:10How do we ensure that Nairobi is still able to serve its populace?
00:09:13We have about 7,800 community health volunteers.
00:09:21How are those people going to be supported to ensure that primary health care works?
00:09:26Okay.
00:09:26Number four.
00:09:26We don't have ambulances and fire engines around to be able to service our constituents.
00:09:33And the sub-county health facilities don't even have maternity wards.
00:09:36And most of them are not operating as 24-hour maternity wards.
00:09:40So the issue of health is a major one.
00:09:43The fourth one is the issue of youth.
00:09:45Yeah.
00:09:46Okay.
00:09:46Youth unemployment.
00:09:47Youth unemployment.
00:09:47It is a budgeting problem.
00:09:49Exactly.
00:09:50That's why you're seeing that the youth are being used as goons.
00:09:53And yet when anybody is creating a campaign manifesto, we are talking about creating jobs.
00:09:59How do you create jobs?
00:10:00As a county, you might not be able to create the number of jobs that you need,
00:10:03but you can provide the environment that then ensures that people invest and employ the youth.
00:10:10Yeah.
00:10:11And then finally, the issue of business people and businesses in Nairobi.
00:10:15I believe that everyone came to Nairobi to actually earn a living.
00:10:18Yeah.
00:10:19Nobody is looking for anything else.
00:10:21And if people are going to earn a living, how do they earn a living?
00:10:25Most of them are either in the informal sector, the hawkers, the artisans, the matatu sectors,
00:10:31and all of the markets and all.
00:10:33And then we have the others who are in the formal sector.
00:10:35How do we ensure that the people who are self-employed and within the informal sector and the others
00:10:42actually are able to earn a living within Nairobi in an organized way
00:10:46and in a way that they feel that they're not being taken advantage of?
00:10:50I love that.
00:10:51Five action points that would really transform how Nairobi County works
00:10:57and how the people within the county would operate.
00:11:00Yes.
00:11:01How would you then say you're elected?
00:11:05Excuse me.
00:11:06How do you tackle the issue of youth unemployment?
00:11:09What would you do in your first 100 days?
00:11:13See, beyond the first 100 days, the main agenda around youth is that we all accept that we need jobs.
00:11:23That's number one.
00:11:24And as a county, it's really about the partnerships that you can bring in to ensure that the youth get jobs.
00:11:33For us, we are looking at creating up to around 200,000 jobs within the five years.
00:11:39You create the jobs directly through the county itself and the county has a lot that it needs to do.
00:11:46For example, what would that be?
00:11:47For example, look, don't even go far.
00:11:49Look at the dam, the Nairobi dam.
00:11:56It was created in the 40s.
00:11:59It was supposed to be a reservoir for water.
00:12:01Now it's a dam and a most critical breeding ground.
00:12:04And it is still owned by Nairobi County.
00:12:08Those are some of the projects that we will take up immediately so that it's restored, it's rehabilitated, and they're connected to Nairobi Water and Sea White Company.
00:12:18And who will do that?
00:12:19Of course, it's the young people and the youth who will be given the job to do such.
00:12:24And it's not just one.
00:12:26If you look at the issue of garbage around Nairobi, it's huge.
00:12:29Nairobi has become the face of filth.
00:12:32And if we reorganize how we deal with the issue of garbage, where we start from actually the resident estates,
00:12:42where the youth and youth groups are set up as CBOs, where then we offer them sheds.
00:12:50Then they start from segregation of waste at the beginning.
00:12:57And because waste is wealth, you can imagine the kind of opportunities, the green jobs that you can get because of the recycling.
00:13:06So the opportunities are there.
00:13:08How do we get that, especially for the youth?
00:13:11It's first to come up with a team that understands the issues of youth.
00:13:16Myself, I pride myself in being a manager, not necessarily a politician.
00:13:20And by being a manager, it means I'm able to put together a team that can deliver on a mandate.
00:13:27And when we think of the young people, the youth should also be leading such efforts.
00:13:33When you're talking of youth, you're thinking of the digital economy.
00:13:36What is it that we are doing to uplift the young people on the digital economy?
00:13:41We need to have incubation hubs within every constituency.
00:13:46Incubation and where the young people are able to actually come in, present their ideas, have people who are helping them even to refine their ideas.
00:13:55Because we are moving into digitization.
00:13:57We, as a county, we need to create enough apps for digitization.
00:14:03We have young people who are actually able to create such apps and monetize on them.
00:14:09So we need to actually look at the young people as not people who we should take advantage of by making them goons or people who can beg for food and handouts on a daily basis.
00:14:22But people who we partner for us to be able to build this county together.
00:14:26So you're talking about not only just empowerment of the youth, but also allowing them to partake in how the development of the city progresses in order to help them progress.
00:14:39Absolutely.
00:14:40It's their city.
00:14:41It's their city and they are the future for this city.
00:14:45And that's why we have to bring them in as stakeholders for us.
00:14:49Okay, as a gubernatorial candidate and hopefully maybe soon to be governor, waste management in Nairobi is a very challenging issue.
00:15:02We see when it rains, the city turns into an entire mess.
00:15:07And that's generally based on the fact that we have poor waste management systems, poor trash.
00:15:13Generally, there is a need for the overhaul of management of waste management in the city.
00:15:21What do you think you would bring in that is new from what we've seen currently?
00:15:29You know, the biggest problem with waste are cartels.
00:15:35They are cartels within the waste structure.
00:15:38And we deal with cartels.
00:15:40We've dealt with them before.
00:15:41Yeah, when I went to Kamsa, people were telling me, there's so many cartels there, they'll kill you.
00:15:47And I went there and within no time I had dealt with the cartels.
00:15:50When I remember when I was PS for transport, when I wanted to overhaul Kenya Ports Authority, KPA,
00:15:57I was told the cartels would not allow me to step in Mombasa.
00:16:00I stepped in Mombasa.
00:16:01We fired enough people there and we changed things around.
00:16:04So even this garbage system and the network that is there in Nairobi, we have to dismantle it.
00:16:10It's interesting because on your five points, corruption wasn't on there.
00:16:14But it really is a symptom throughout all of governance in Kenya, destabilizing the system as a whole.
00:16:26I usually have six points.
00:16:28Financial management is a six.
00:16:29You only ask for five.
00:16:30But corruption should be number one, truthfully.
00:16:36Each of them, I feel, is important in its own way.
00:16:40Because even if you fight corruption and you don't fight for the people, then it does not make sense.
00:16:45So you said cartels.
00:16:46Yes.
00:16:47And then we can link it into corruption.
00:16:50How would you then fight corruption within Nairobi County?
00:16:53Because it is very rampant.
00:16:57Corruption is fairly broad in that we have the corruption within the system.
00:17:03If you're talking of revenue itself, the leakage of revenue.
00:17:07Personally, I believe that Nairobi collects about 40 billion shillings a year.
00:17:13We are only able to account for 14 billion.
00:17:15So there's a 26 billion that is stolen.
00:17:17There's a leak somewhere.
00:17:19Leaks.
00:17:20And the controller of budget actually says that Nairobi should be collecting about 60 billion.
00:17:25And I believe we should.
00:17:27So the key thing is really how to seal the issue.
00:17:32How do you fight that?
00:17:33You are elected.
00:17:35The Nairobi electorate gives you the mandate to solve their issues.
00:17:42Number one being corruption.
00:17:44Where do you begin?
00:17:44You see the beauty, my party leader.
00:17:48I am the patron for DCP party in Nairobi.
00:17:51And my party leader is Rigadi Gashagwa.
00:17:54And a few weeks ago, Rigadi talked about the leadership that we want to elect in 2027.
00:18:00Not just in Nairobi, nationally.
00:18:02And we say that the leadership we elect should be people who have a track record for us to look at.
00:18:08We should not elect somebody who's been very private.
00:18:11We have no idea who they are.
00:18:13And when you look at the track record, the one that she'll speak about whether or not what my stand is on corruption.
00:18:21From my days in public sector, which is over 10 years now.
00:18:26You have never heard me in any scandal.
00:18:31None.
00:18:32None.
00:18:33Zero.
00:18:34At transport, my budget per year was 190 billion.
00:18:37Every year.
00:18:38I handled the SGR.
00:18:40I handled Lapset.
00:18:42I handled the airport expansion.
00:18:45I handled the port of Mombasa expansion.
00:18:48And there's not one single case of corruption.
00:18:52When I was the chairman of Mombasa, again, everybody imagines that Mombasa procures scandals.
00:19:00Because that's anybody who touches Mombasa before me was always ended up with a big scandal.
00:19:06Money-making venture.
00:19:07Exactly.
00:19:08I was there for two years.
00:19:09Not a single scandal.
00:19:10But you see, the thing is, it's not about you personally.
00:19:14You might be very morally above the fray that's going on in Kenya.
00:19:22But I think corruption, many of us think about it as 200 million here and 200 million here.
00:19:28But there's also somebody who asks you for tea and facilitation.
00:19:32Small things for regular people that can't be done without some version of help.
00:19:42How do we fight that?
00:19:43When somebody is asking for 10,000 shillings for a transaction or 5,000 shillings, how do we
00:19:50tackle that vice?
00:19:52But corruption is actually about the leader.
00:19:55It's the tone at the top.
00:19:57What's the leader saying about it?
00:19:59Not just saying, what are his actions around it?
00:20:03Does he speak about it?
00:20:05Does he live what he speaks?
00:20:07Especially on issues of corruption.
00:20:09And I can tell you, when a leader does not live by the standards that they have set,
00:20:21then everybody below them will be corrupt.
00:20:24And unfortunately, if as a governor, I take 1,000 shillings, and people know that I've taken
00:20:331,000 shillings, the people below me will take 100 shillings.
00:20:37But because they are a lot more than me, that 100 shillings will end up being a million.
00:20:43And that's how you lose more money than even what you, as a governor, for example, took.
00:20:48Because then you lose the moral authority to speak against corruption.
00:20:56And that's why, for me, it's really about the tone at the top.
00:21:00And that's also a critique when we move to discuss about business within Nairobi.
00:21:07Many people talk about the enforcement of business permits and whatnot.
00:21:15Doing business in Nairobi is very challenging because people will come in, somebody wants
00:21:20lunch here, facilitation there, despite having the requisite permits.
00:21:25How will you ensure, as a governor, that you make business within the city friendlier for
00:21:35business owners?
00:21:38For, I started out by telling you that I'm a businessman.
00:21:42By being a businessman, I understand how challenging it is to run a business.
00:21:48And I understand the sacrifices business people have to go through to actually see their businesses
00:21:56succeed.
00:21:57For us, it is about making the ease of doing business, improving on the ease of doing business
00:22:04in Nairobi.
00:22:05And the first thing is really about the permits and the licensing.
00:22:10If you make it so difficult for people, then you discourage people from doing, even expanding
00:22:18the businesses.
00:22:19And if they can't expand, it also means that they cannot create jobs for our youth and our
00:22:24young people and the residents of Nairobi.
00:22:27I've been looking at even the number of permits that exist in Nairobi and the licenses that are
00:22:34required.
00:22:34And you'll find that, yes, they've been talking about they have a single business permit and
00:22:39that it has collapsed all the permits into one.
00:22:41But that's not true.
00:22:43You still need a lot of permits.
00:22:45You need that single business permit.
00:22:47You need the firefighting license.
00:22:49You need the health and safety licenses.
00:22:51You need the veranda license, in case you have a veranda in your building.
00:22:56And you need a whole array of licenses and collapse all of those into one.
00:23:04And two, you find that the kind of fees that are required when you collapse all those is
00:23:11too high for any business, especially if you think of a restaurant where they have all this
00:23:18health and safety and all these licenses that are required.
00:23:21So if you tell someone, pay $50,000 at the beginning of the year as your fees, and that's
00:23:28the same time you're taking children to school and all this, you'll find that a lot of them
00:23:32will either find ways to bribe somebody.
00:23:35And that facilitates corruption as well.
00:23:37Exactly.
00:23:38Yes.
00:23:39Alternatively, I can tell you, yes, you owe $50,000, but you'll be paying $4,000 per month
00:23:44for the next 12 months.
00:23:46It's $48,000.
00:23:47You see, that way you make it easier for people to do business because in any case, we'll need
00:23:53money every month.
00:23:55And by doing so, you'll make a lot more people to be compliant because then they understand
00:24:00that they're supporting the business.
00:24:02They don't have to go behind your back.
00:24:05They don't have to try to bribe somebody because this is now money that they can afford.
00:24:09So essentially, for me, I feel that to support the businesses, I'll need to have a serious
00:24:16engagement with the stakeholders in business.
00:24:20But the most important thing is that everybody needs to feel that they are part of Nairobi.
00:24:27They need to feel that they are needed.
00:24:29Yeah.
00:24:30And I keep saying, we all have to fit in Nairobi.
00:24:34Nobody's living in Nairobi.
00:24:35Yeah.
00:24:36That's a good point when we talk about informal settlements.
00:24:41Yes.
00:24:42We all have to fit within Nairobi.
00:24:45Yes.
00:24:45Whatever pay scale or pay bracket you fit in.
00:24:48Yes.
00:24:48And people who live in informal settlements have found themselves on the outskirts of
00:24:54this Nairobi we talk about.
00:24:56How do you tackle them?
00:24:58So the informal settlement, you have to deal with it in many ways, in different ways.
00:25:02First of all, as I mentioned, about 60% of Nairobians live in informal settlements.
00:25:08And sadly, too, they occupy about 10% of the land, which is, Nairobi is about 172,000 acres.
00:25:17So you're talking of them only occupying about 17,000 acres.
00:25:21And we have to find ways to do even upgrade, upgrading the residences.
00:25:30I lived in London for quite a number of years.
00:25:33And we have the council flats.
00:25:36Now, when I look at the current affordable housing scheme plans, where we are saying that
00:25:43we've built houses in Mokuru, and they are going for 1.2 million shillings.
00:25:48Who's buying them?
00:25:49Who's buying them?
00:25:50Certainly not the people in Mokuru.
00:25:52I know very many people buying them, but they don't live there.
00:25:54They're buying them to rent them out to these people.
00:25:57But even the rent that a private individual will ask for will be way more than the parcel.
00:26:05So what you're saying, the affordable housing scheme, as it is envisioned right now, doesn't
00:26:10cater to those who live in informal settlements?
00:26:14It doesn't, because they can't afford it.
00:26:15When I was a PS for transport, we were the ones who put up the housing schemes along the
00:26:22railway line in Kibra. And we moved about almost 1,000 people into those housing units
00:26:30from the slums, because we wanted to clean up the railway line. And those people, you
00:26:38could tell that they are truly appreciative of that move. And the rent did not change much.
00:26:45If you're paying 3,000, you end up still paying about 3,000. But you're paying 3,000
00:26:49and you have water, you have electricity. Of course, you're paying for those separately.
00:26:54You have a running toilet. You see, you're actually dignifying these people.
00:27:01And that's why I keep saying about Nairobi, we have to find a way to give dignity to each
00:27:09resident of Nairobi.
00:27:10So if the affordable housing scheme isn't going to do that, you as Nairobi County Governor,
00:27:16what will you do for informal housing, those residents who do live in informal housing?
00:27:21That's what we do. You see, if you look at what Kibaki did, he did the slum upgrading scheme.
00:27:27The slum upgrade scheme was not about people buying the houses. It's about putting in money
00:27:34to collect revenues. And people pay rent. And that's possible and it's doable. And we have
00:27:41enough, I'm an investment banker. We have things called REITs. Yeah. REITs is something that
00:27:49real estate investment trusts, which can even be listed on the stock exchange, whereby you raise
00:27:56enough money to be able to put up structures for these people, for the people in the slum
00:28:04areas. You upgrade for them, but then you're collecting rent from them.
00:28:09And so from what I'm seeing that, or from what I'm hearing, the affordable housing scheme
00:28:15as envisioned currently isn't something that's going to upgrade Kenyans as a whole.
00:28:21So it won't, at least it will not cater for the people in the slums. And the slums, the
00:28:27people in the slums, they're growing. The numbers are growing. Today, Kibra is 400,000
00:28:33people. Mukuru is 300,000. Korogosho is 150,000. Mutuin is about 100,000. The schemes are there.
00:28:40There are many and they're growing in numbers. As I told you, in 10 years, we'll have doubled
00:28:44in the population.
00:28:45So what do you do on your first 100 days to improve the slums? What would be your agenda?
00:28:51The key agenda for the slums in that period is more around the things around public sanitation,
00:29:02which means putting up the toilets and showers. And these are actually the ones that run by
00:29:07young people, the youth. And by that, you already cut by more than 70, 80% the incidences
00:29:15of transmutable diseases. The typhoid, cholera, and all those that you get from lack of water.
00:29:22Then pushing in to have water kiosks in all these settlements.
00:29:26Clean water access. Clean water. Clean water access. And with tokens, I actually want every family to get
00:29:32about 60 litres per day for free that they can be using in their households. Then issues of access,
00:29:39the roads, access to the slums and to the informal sectors, informal settlements. And then street lighting
00:29:46within these areas have the street lights so that people, the economy, improving security,
00:29:52the security and also ensure that the economy can continue working beyond six o'clock in the evening.
00:30:02That requires intentionality in terms of development of how these informal settlements go.
00:30:10And that hasn't occurred up to date. How do you enforce such a system?
00:30:16You need empathy. I grew up there. I grew up in the Kenyago slums. I've been there even since then.
00:30:25And I think once you have been there, you understand how undignified existence is. And being a child
00:30:37of the slums myself will be more of what can I do to actually uplift the people living there. Because
00:30:44I understand the life there. I've lived it. So there is what we call the will, the political will,
00:30:53to get something done. If you want something done and you have the resources to do it, you'll do it.
00:31:00You'll prioritize it. You'll prioritize it. I saw a governor whose interest was actually just having
00:31:06a chapel machine and he got it delivered. And so it means that if that money was for something else,
00:31:12for cleaning up the streets, for having street children get housing, he could have done it.
00:31:18Okay. So the issue of unrestrained development, yes, applies in informal settlements, but also translates
00:31:27throughout the rest of Nairobi. We are seeing a lot of growth within the capital city in a manner that
00:31:39is beyond what was envisioned for the capital city. Is there a way to reverse that? When we see boundary
00:31:49to boundary developments, when we see buildings and flats beyond 25 floors, which was not envisioned
00:31:58within Nairobi originally, how, as a governor, do you reverse the effects of that kind of choice?
00:32:05You can't reverse that because the city is growing and that's a fact. But you can look at better
00:32:13planning. Nairobi is the seat of the national government, which means that we cannot build Nairobi
00:32:19on the resources of the county. You have to build them on the resources of the national government.
00:32:25And that's why, as a governor, you have to work very closely and partner with the national government.
00:32:30If you're talking about sewer systems, you can, yeah, Upper Hill, Kileleshua, Kilimani, all those
00:32:36places, they're single-dweller houses. So the sewer system that is there is for single-dweller.
00:32:41It doesn't facilitate what is going on at the moment.
00:32:46It doesn't.
00:32:46So, and the county government does not have such resources to be able to put up a new sewer line.
00:32:52But the national government does, and the government understands the importance of the same. But it has to come
00:32:58as a priority from the county government. If you're talking of water,
00:33:03the kind of the size of the water pipes that are bringing water into these places will guarantee you
00:33:09that for the next 10 years, you'll be having water bouses we'll have, we'll be in business.
00:33:14Yeah.
00:33:14Within that line, then, we've had, there's been a lot of conflict between county government and national
00:33:21government in terms of the management of Nairobi County. What would be your approach in tackling,
00:33:28as you're talking about infrastructure development, dealing with national government?
00:33:33I don't see it as a conflict because the functions of the national government and functions of the
00:33:39county government are fairly well defined in the schedules of the constitution. And it's more
00:33:46around the governor of Nairobi appreciating the role the national government will play in his own
00:33:53development agenda and the promises he's made to the people of Nairobi. And with that realization is then
00:33:58for the governor to partner much more closely with the national government. When you're talking about
00:34:05infrastructure, for example, Nairobi has highways. Those are under Kura. Nairobi has more street lights
00:34:15than the county can be able to fund. Nairobi has sewer lines that cannot be funded by, that are under the
00:34:22ministry of water and irrigation and sanitation. So the county has to be very deliberate in their
00:34:31partnership and working through the national government. Unfortunately, that's where politics
00:34:35comes to play, right? Let's say you were to succeed in 2027. You are a party member of DCP, governor of Nairobi.
00:34:46The president is from another party. And of course, political alliances and allegiances then come to play.
00:34:58How would you navigate that to ensure there's no stagnation in the development of Nairobi?
00:35:06Because it feels as a person who has lived in Nairobi for over a decade, Nairobi is a very stagnant
00:35:15county. There is not a lot of growth that's been ongoing and politics has really played a role in
00:35:20ensuring that that stays as is. Luckily for me, for 2027, both the governor and the president will be from
00:35:28the United Opposition Coalition. So we'll be on the same side. But my thinking is that
00:35:37even if that is not the case, which is highly unlikely, then the governor for Nairobi has to realize that
00:35:45the agenda that they have for the people of Nairobi is bigger than his own political agenda. And if we
00:35:53are working towards re-election, you have a manifesto that you give to the people. And if you do not
00:36:00partner with the national government, if you don't work closely with the national government, then
00:36:04you will not resolve anything. So I think those are things that a leader makes decisions on at that
00:36:15point. Decides, is it, what do I get from working with the government? But by working in the government
00:36:22does not mean that you're necessarily abandoning your seat and where you are in the opposition. For
00:36:30example, for example, for us, I remember when I was a PS for transport and I'm the one who founded and
00:36:37started NAMATA, the Nairobi Area Metropolitan Transport Authority that brought together the
00:36:42four counties around Nairobi for purposes of decongesting Nairobi. The chair for
00:36:47NAMATA was positioned to be the governor of Nairobi, who at that time was Evans Kidero who was in opposition.
00:36:54And yet, Kidero realized that this NAMATA is very good for his county, for Nairobi. And he attended
00:37:04every meeting I called and he participated and he ensured that he championed NAMATA, even though it was
00:37:11me who was on the other side of it. So you just have to understand as a leader that you don't fight
00:37:17everything. There are things that are good for your people and you have to work with them.
00:37:23I like that you raise that because as Kenyans we have a very good way of we can meet about anything,
00:37:31talk about anything. The smartest people I've met are Kenyans, right? We can talk about decongestion of
00:37:37Nairobi County and public transport and yet nothing ever seems to change.
00:37:48How, what would you do about that? It takes time. Change takes time, but it comes.
00:37:55If you talk of NAMATA, you're seeing now Ngong Road has a BRT line that is coming up. It's taken time
00:38:02because we passed the NAMATA bill in 2016. So it's only nine years later and it's really about
00:38:13who is championing it. And I can tell you after I left that city and moved to another state department,
00:38:19it lacked the champion because I'm the one who started it and I'm the one who championed it.
00:38:23What else would you implement in terms of congestion and public transport infrastructure within the city?
00:38:30You know, the studies show that a city should have BRTs only up to about 7 million population.
00:38:42Nairobi already has about 8.5 million in daytime population. So immediately after the BRTs,
00:38:51you need a real solution. Without a real solution, then you have no, you will not be able to...
00:38:58So what's the solution? So the real solution is actually having,
00:39:01and we had put it as part of the bigger, broader master plan. We have the seven corridors
00:39:09from Langata Road, Ngong Road, Weyakiwe, which also is part of the Limuru Road corridor. You have
00:39:15Juja Road, Thika Road, Mombasa Road, and Outa Ring. And what's the car within those corridors?
00:39:20So with the BRT is to ensure that each of these corridors actually have the bus lanes. And the bus
00:39:29lanes can also be used as pull lanes for people driving in pulled vehicles like taxis and Ubers and
00:39:35the others can be able to use those lanes. With that also, you bring in the park and ride, which allows
00:39:43people who are driving to be able to park their vehicles in designated areas and take buses from
00:39:51those areas, in particular into the CBD and central areas like the Upper Hill Kilimani areas. Then with
00:39:59that, then you have less vehicles moving through the key roads. And you also do not have issues of
00:40:06parking within these areas. Very ideal policies. Again, the issue comes in of cartels within the
00:40:13public transport sector. So yes, you have great policies, but once you get into office, it's very
00:40:20difficult to implement. It's about the political will. It's about if you want it. In 2016, I can tell
00:40:29you, I pushed for us to have the digital paying systems, the Berber card, if you remember, for paying
00:40:40the ticketing in the buses. And I pushed it so hard that we were almost at the point of compliance,
00:40:48but then elections were around the corner and the president had to call me and tell me to slow down
00:40:53on it because of an election that was coming. But I know how to push. And I know how if I do believe
00:41:01in something and that it will help bring change, because those cars are going to bring order in how
00:41:08we administer public transport. No money for bribes for the cops. So a lot of people didn't want them,
00:41:16but we almost got them, not only that election, or if it was like four years to an election,
00:41:22will have achieved it. You almost highlight a psychological element to where we stand right
00:41:28now. That it's almost as if, as Kenyans, we don't want better for ourselves. Because you're
00:41:34talking about a policy existing that would have changed the lives of 8.5 million people within the
00:41:41capital city, and yet somehow it's never been implemented. How do we change that mentality?
00:41:48You see, as I mentioned before, it's really about the tone at the top. It's about the person's seat.
00:41:55The head and the neck. The head and the neck. Whoever is sitting on that, who's occupying that
00:42:01big seat. If it's about the national nation, then it's the president. If it's about the county,
00:42:07it's the governor. So if those people are not willing to make hard choices to deliver change,
00:42:17and deliver development, then nothing will change. And we have to be very deliberate about it.
00:42:24The leadership has to be very deliberate about it. I can tell you, people won't change. It's just that
00:42:30they feel that they don't have the voice to bring about change. Nobody wants to be in traffic for two
00:42:36hours, but they look at it and say, what can I do? Yeah. I can't do anything. There are people who
00:42:42we pay to get us out of this traffic, to get out of this mess. People want to go to hospital and
00:42:49get medicine in the hospitals, but they don't. They're told to go buy the medicine in the pharmacies.
00:42:54It's not that they don't know what they want. They do, but they don't have the voice. So it's the tone
00:43:01at the top. The leadership has to be able to deliver that change that people want.
00:43:05If I come to you with 30 million shillings and I tell you, go this. Sorry.
00:43:14Because really leadership is for sale at the moment, but that's a conversation for another day.
00:43:21I can tell you, I can tell you it's not always for sale. Okay. There are things, there are people
00:43:25who actually can stand for something. And I remember when I was the PS for planning,
00:43:32and you remember the issues of Aroki Morer. And I was brought money, 200 million.
00:43:39And I have an affidavit at the DCI on the same, whatever I'm saying. So it's not just
00:43:46fake stories. And I was just supposed to sign for the dam to be built. And I refused. Yeah.
00:43:55And the rest is history. So I think people are built differently. It's about what do I want in 30,
00:44:0340, 50 years? Will that 30 million of 200 million mean much? But in 30, 40, 50 years, if actually I see
00:44:11a rail system in Nairobi and I'm the one who championed it, and my children can say that dad,
00:44:17my grandfather did this, which one will actually be more fulfilling for me? Certainly it's the
00:44:24development and the change. How do we encourage that in more people? Because most people will take
00:44:30the 30 million. Most people will take the 200 million. We've heard of people taking 10,000 shillings,
00:44:36you know? Especially our legislators. How do we encourage people to be
00:44:44more patriotic in their duty towards our country? It's by rewarding such actions.
00:44:54If somebody does that, they should be protected. Because people always feel that if I'm a whistleblower,
00:45:02if I do the right thing, I'll be victimized. Because even for my case, I had to actually ensure that
00:45:11I've gone to the DCI before they went to the DCI and go give my records. Because I knew that
00:45:18there are other people who will try to completely change everything. And two, you don't need everyone
00:45:25to do it. You just need a few people to make those steps. Today, people still talk about Gedongo.
00:45:31Yeah. And his views are blowing. And how much money did he save us? Yes. Yeah. But he just needs one
00:45:39person to make that step. But again, as everything else, it's the tone at the top.
00:45:45It's very scary because as we head into the elections coming up, there's very little confidence about
00:45:54the IEBC and the kind of role they will play. Are you confident about the upcoming two years?
00:46:08We'll test that with the by-elections that are coming up in two weeks. We have about 17,
00:46:17quite a number of by-elections. And where the government has decided that's where they're going
00:46:23to play their politics and their optics. So we will see how IEBC will handle those by-elections.
00:46:29And based on that, then it will tell us whether we should be worried or whether we're in good hands.
00:46:33I really do hope that we're in good hands. I know some of the commissioners. I know the people in IEBC.
00:46:40I know they mean well for this nation. I just hope that they can actually make it happen and deliver
00:46:47just systems that can give us the right leaders and the leaders that Kenyans want.
00:46:52And there's also a further debate about campaign finance and how much people spend within campaigns and
00:47:03how we tackle that. You're about to go out against several monsters. DCP, you have ODM,
00:47:09very interested in Nairobi gubernatorial elections. I'm sure UDA will be as well. How do you fight
00:47:16a beast with unending mileage and money? You see, the campaign financing
00:47:27had been put in place. The regulations, I think, took long to come. But it's very difficult to monitor,
00:47:36especially for the incumbents. When you're fighting against an incumbent, because an incumbent is using
00:47:41public resources. The president will be running in 2027. Don't imagine he'll be using his own money.
00:47:48He's been having meetings at State House, printing money, State House. So,
00:47:54Hawaii will limit the opposition while the government is actually spending as much money as they want.
00:48:01So, I think we have to be very, even as we try to bring inequity, we have to be fair to everyone.
00:48:10Campaign financing is about how much money an individual is able to spend. But for me, I still
00:48:19believe that Kenyans want to be given money during campaigns. They want tokens, they want handouts.
00:48:25I won't be going to change that. So, you're okay with contributing to the culture of handouts?
00:48:33I don't like it, but I'll be part of it.
00:48:37Okay. Those who can't do, or those who can't reach do, I don't know what the phraseology is,
00:48:43but you're saying you don't have to change it, you can just partake.
00:48:46I'll partake. We'll change it when we're inside. But for now, we're on the opposition side. So, we'll go
00:48:53with what people do. We'll campaign the way people campaign. We'll do politics the way people do
00:49:00politics. We'll not change it.
00:49:02Okay. All right. Back to Nairobi County. Climate change is something we've seen
00:49:12be a very prevalent part of the debate. And we see the effects. A little rain in Nairobi County and
00:49:21everything comes to a standstill. What sort of policies do you see yourself bringing to the
00:49:27forefront to tackle the effects of climate change within the capital?
00:49:34The flooding in Nairobi has nothing to do with climate change. It just has to do with poor
00:49:38administration. We all know, the governor knows, and his Green Army team know that our drainages
00:49:46are clogged. When it's not raining, they should be unclogging them. They should be preparing.
00:49:52But if we spend all our time uprooting all the trees within the city, we now live in a concrete
00:49:57jungle. That is a symptom and the result of poor governance policies, is it not?
00:50:04True. No, I didn't mean that climate change is not important and real. No, it is. But I'm just
00:50:10talking about the flooding itself. Okay.
00:50:13And so the flooding is symptomatic to those actions of poor planning in terms of where the settlements are,
00:50:23poor planning in terms of not having proper drainages and not even unclogging the drainages. That's why they...
00:50:32And then on the issues of the environmental conservation, I think that's important.
00:50:37And Nairobi used to be one of the towering beacons in areas of conservation. And thanks to Wangare
00:50:47Madaya also for helping us with the carbon sink in the Ngong Forest, Karura and all the others. And
00:50:56we've been seeing what has been happening with the cutting down of trees, especially under this
00:51:01administration where the leader of the administration is a botanist, so he should know better. But I think
00:51:11for issues of the flooding, I think the county has to be held accountable. It's really up to them to
00:51:21ensure that Nairobi has proper drainage. I need to hear the governor talking about drainage day in,
00:51:28day out, especially now that we are in the rainy season. He needs to be telling us what exactly is the
00:51:35county administration doing to ensure that we don't have to acquire boats.
00:51:42Okay. What about tree plant? We see a lot of tree planting. Many people complain about the
00:51:48jacarandas. There used to be a hashtag, jacaranda propaganda. Nairobi used to be known as a green city
00:51:55in the sun. There is very little green in Nairobi County at the moment. It's almost a concrete jungle.
00:52:03How do we restore our green spaces going forward, especially when you think about the next 50
00:52:09years? What do we want our city to look like? One is on planning, but two is also on the public spaces.
00:52:22A lot of public spaces have been grabbed in Nairobi. As I mentioned, 60% of the population
00:52:29live on 10% of the land. The public spaces, which used to be parks, where our children used to go
00:52:37play. I remember even when we were living in the slums in Kenyago, we actually had-
00:52:42There were always parks.
00:52:43Big spaces that we used to find people coming to put up there in the morning. They're sleeping there
00:52:50with tents. And then by afternoon, they've been kicked out because it's public spaces.
00:52:55Do you then reclaim that land as governor of Nairobi? Would that be something you'd be willing to do?
00:53:03Yes. This is what can be reclaimed. And one of the things that I will champion is actually a digital
00:53:13land registry for public land. I was in Karyobangi South about two months ago, and I found children
00:53:22playing by the rail line. And so I was asking the residents there, because I was meeting the community
00:53:29health volunteers. I was asking them what happened. The train would be there, the other children are
00:53:37playing by the roadside. And I was told, no, our park was stolen. They used to play there. So they actually
00:53:43know where it is. And we will go after whoever grabbed that land. I saw the governor of Mombasa
00:53:50the other day demolishing a building, a very big building, about 10 stories and above, because it was
00:53:56sitting on public land, grabbed land. We'll do the same. You know, the population of Nairobi,
00:54:02I've told you, will be doubling in the next 10 years. And there's no new Nairobi that we're getting.
00:54:08So where will our children play? Our children will be getting rickets. There's no space even for them
00:54:14to enjoy some sunlight. So there has to be a very, very decisive actions by the governor, especially on
00:54:22public spaces and public land and reclaiming it. Like you say, you lead from the head and the neck
00:54:28must lead. Yes. And you're willing to proceed with that. Yes, willing and ready. So you have previously
00:54:38run in 2022 in Moranga County. You say you now want to run in Nairobi County in 2027. Why the change of
00:54:49constituencies? In 2022, I ran for governor of Moranga County because I was working very closely
00:54:59with the people of Moranga on issues around the farmers. Actually, I ran on farmers' party. And at
00:55:07the same time, I was the national, the chair for the tea reforms. And I was also in the coffee task force.
00:55:15So it meant that we worked closely with them and they felt that I can champion for their issues a lot
00:55:24more. And that's actually how I ended up running in Moranga. Of course, my mother was born in Moranga.
00:55:33And after my mom passed away when I was only eight years old, while I continued to go to boarding school
00:55:40in Nairobi during the school holidays, I was going to my grandmother in Moranga. So that's my history and
00:55:47tie with Moranga County. So and essentially why I ran there. When we are looking at 2027, I'm looking at
00:55:55where do I feel I can bring about the most change? Because of my exposure and the global exposure and
00:56:04having lived in Nairobi for the longest, I feel that my leadership can actually add more value in Nairobi
00:56:11than in Moranga. I am a Nairobian. I've been raised and bred here. I know the issues of Nairobi.
00:56:18I keep hearing people talk about New York and London. And I'm saying we can bring New York to Nairobi.
00:56:23We can bring London to Nairobi. The only reason we don't have New York in Nairobi, the only reason that we do not
00:56:31have London in Nairobi is because we don't have the mindset of New York.
00:56:36And political will. Yes, and the political will, the mindset and the political will.
00:56:42And once we bring that change, even if I don't do all of it, maybe we'll start something that will
00:56:48make Nairobi a great place. Okay, so within your change as well, you say you were on the Farmers Party
00:56:55and now you are now part of what? DCP. DCP. Yes. What inspired that change as well?
00:57:04You see, DCP is led by Rigadi Gashagua, the former DP. And he inspires me in many ways, in particular for
00:57:16wanting to speak truth to power. And the realization that for you to bring about change, you may have
00:57:25to do things that might make you unpopular with some people, but they'll make you popular with the
00:57:30right people. And he decided to speak the truth. He decided, he knew that he would end up being
00:57:41impeached. But he did all the same. So when I'm looking at the change that I want to bring in Nairobi,
00:57:48I realized that I'll be sitting on the wrong side of very many people. I'll be sitting on the wrong
00:57:55side of cartels, on the wrong side of people who want to carry out petty crimes and offenses within
00:58:01City Hall, people who want to steal the revenues of Nairobi, kind of people who just want to be there
00:58:07and do nothing. But I'm willing to take that chance and actually make it happen just so that we can
00:58:13have a better Nairobi. As the governor, you would have the mandate to influence the manner in which
00:58:22some education policies are run within the county, including the school feeding program.
00:58:29How would you put your own personal spin on that docket?
00:58:38For education is not devolved. The only area of education that devolve is the ECDE.
00:58:47But the children are still ours, even if education is not devolved. And I'm a big believer of education,
00:58:55because I am where I am because of education. I believe that education is a big equalizer,
00:59:02is what actually makes the children of the poor people and the children of kings to sit on one
00:59:09table. I remember I was classmates with Fahad Al-Soud, a prince from Saudi Arabia.
00:59:15In Stanford?
00:59:16In Stanford.
00:59:17At Stanford. And I arrived at Stanford the year Chelsea Clinton was graduating from Stanford. So,
00:59:26myself, I've just come from a village here in a slum in Nairobi, in Kenyago. And I'm sitting with a
00:59:33prince from Saudi Arabia. And that's education. And we have to really, as a county and country,
00:59:42to put in a lot more effort and emphasis on education.
00:59:45But when you pay attention to what and the direction in which education and the discussion
00:59:51around education is in Kenya, there seems to be a concerted effort to water down the quality of
01:00:00education for our children. How would you influence that?
01:00:05I've spoken to a lot of the academics and the teachers and people who have been involved in
01:00:15the curriculum set up. And I feel that the direction the education system is going is
01:00:21actually the right direction. It's the direction the world is moving towards.
01:00:25You're a believer in CBC?
01:00:26I'm a believer in CBC. When I went to the US, I felt that I knew a lot. But I knew a lot of
01:00:37everything. Yet some people who were doing very well knew very little of everything. But specific
01:00:46areas, they knew so much about very few things. Like you'd find somebody who just took advanced
01:00:54mathematics and advanced physics. They didn't do CRE. They didn't do history. So the things and areas
01:01:02that they felt they're not good at, they dropped them much earlier. Of course, there are things
01:01:07that have to be sustained all the way. Issues of like mathematics and sciences. Even if you don't take
01:01:14the hard sciences, we, for purposes of analytical skills that are required for you to actually achieve,
01:01:25make even simple decisions across life, we need to ensure that those remain. Things like the mathematics,
01:01:31a bit of sciences, life sciences, those have to be there. But then if somebody is not good at mathematics,
01:01:38you don't need to take them to advanced mathematics. They don't need to know kinematics. They don't need to
01:01:43know this advanced algebra. But then maybe they are also good at arts, social sciences. Advance them
01:01:52in that area because you don't need to be everything. If you are a doctor, you need to be good in biology
01:01:58and mathematics and chemistry. If you are to be an architect, you probably didn't need a lot of
01:02:05biology as to be an architect. So I feel it is going, the curriculum itself, it's headed in the right
01:02:13direction. But we need a lot of education for the parents so that they feel that the children are not
01:02:18getting something of inferior quality. And also there's a bigger role that the parents have to play
01:02:25in this and you find that these parents sometimes don't even have the resources to do that. So it's
01:02:33really within the county itself administration to see how do we bring in partners to work with us at
01:02:40the counties to uplift the level of education in the county. So under your administration,
01:02:48then the county will work towards a way to, despite education not being part of your mandate,
01:02:55to support parents and educational institutions. Absolutely. Of course, education is part,
01:03:01especially on the CBC, on the ECDs for natural school. But also if you look at primary school,
01:03:10why do people drop out? They drop out because they have no food. They don't have, they didn't eat
01:03:17anything at night and at school there's nothing to eat during the day. So you also get people are
01:03:25kicked out for small fees that parents are supposed to contribute and the county and the parents have
01:03:31nothing. 100 shillings. I was with parents whose children have been kicked out because of 300 shillings.
01:03:37So as a county, we'd want, we would work with our different partners to understand the challenges our
01:03:45parents are facing and we'll bring in partners to ensure that no children or no child is left behind
01:03:51on areas of education. For you, should you be elected governor of Nairobi, what would success look
01:03:59like to you at the end of your five years? Success will be a re-election. And it will not be a re-election
01:04:06on the back of promises unkept, but it's the promises kept. And the re-election will mean that we've
01:04:14decongested Nairobi, even if not fully, but we have started the process of decongestion.
01:04:20De-congestion also means that the stakeholders, like the Matatus, feel that they are heard,
01:04:28their voice is heard, yeah, and that they are not being forced to do anything, but we're bringing
01:04:33order with them. Success will look as business people feeling that they are not being harassed by
01:04:40Ekanjo. They feel that they actually have space to actually conduct business. And when I say
01:04:48business people, I mean all of them, including hawkers, yeah. The hawkers have space in Nairobi too,
01:04:55just not in front of someone else's shop, yeah. But they also deserve to be in Nairobi. We have about
01:05:0228 back roads in Nairobi that can be set up for them with sheds, with cabro, with lighting, with sanitary
01:05:09toilets and all that, where they can actually be able to operate from. It's from young people
01:05:16feeling that the city is theirs again, where they can find employment, where they can be able to
01:05:23create. It's from Nairobi's feeling that the health system is working for them, where we have upgraded
01:05:30hospitals such as Pumwani Maternity to be a model maternity facility, Bagathi Hospital to be a level
01:05:38six hospital, but run by the county, and ensuring that all the 17 sub-county hospitals have proper labs,
01:05:45have maternity facilities for the mother and child, and they actually have pharmacies that are
01:05:52functioning. It's actually in seeing that we have restored issues of planning, yeah. And whenever we
01:06:01have slight rains, people are not worried. It's looking at issues of security, and security is on
01:06:10technology, CCTVs, street lights, yeah. That's actually what will ensure that we actually have security.
01:06:19I think, yes, you have a very good point, because there's some areas in Nairobi you go to where the
01:06:26city works, yes. You wouldn't even understand why anyone would complain. Nairobi can be a very
01:06:32well-organized city, depending on where you live, and there's other places where that just does not
01:06:40exist, and there needs to be a greater equalization as to how the infrastructure of the city works, not
01:06:47just for the wealthy, but for all of us. We will reorganize Nairobi into Bauros, so that the county does not
01:06:58operate from City Hall, but it's decentralized to the other parts of Nairobi, and usually the boroughs
01:07:06will probably go the same way as the sub-counties. So with the boroughs, it is the one that looks at
01:07:13the development and prioritizes development within that borough, is the one that works on revenue
01:07:19collection within there, is the one that looks at incubation hubs for young people, is the one that
01:07:26looks at issues of education and health facilities and how they should be reorganized. So essentially,
01:07:32you decentralize City Hall with boroughs. So that's the way that then you guarantee that development
01:07:39goes all the way. Then there's the issue of the MCAs. MCAs are elected, just like the governor. MCAs are
01:07:47representatives of the people, just like the governor, and we have to give them their space.
01:07:51We have to work with MCAs, ensure that we do give them the World Development Fund, so that they can
01:07:57be able to deliver for us the key, the world level priorities. And I know once, if the MCA is able to
01:08:07get development to his people, then those people will be very happy with their governor. So I think that's
01:08:14how you really develop the issues of the county all the way to the world level. Even when you come to
01:08:20public participation, the forums should go all the way to the county, so that people feel included
01:08:26and they're part of the system for the city. Okay. I think one more thing before we wrap up,
01:08:32I'd ask you. Nairobi County has been the center of protests over the past year and a half about. We've
01:08:41seen the KDF posted on the streets. As the Nairobi County governor, you would then be the boss in
01:08:49charge of some of these decisions that would go on. How do you handle this? Goons on the street,
01:08:54protests going on. Do you agree with some of the decisions that have come that have been made?
01:09:01I'll tell you what I'll not do. I'll certainly not bring goons to ban people's businesses.
01:09:08I'll not bring goons to fight with the people of Nairobi in the streets. You see, demonstrations
01:09:14are completely enshrined in the constitution. And people don't demonstrate because everything is
01:09:19going well. People demonstrate because they want to be heard. And as a county, we certainly protect
01:09:27their rights to be heard, but also protect the interests of the people of Nairobi.
01:09:31Would that position still stand if the protests were against
01:09:34you, for example, or your work as the governor at the time?
01:09:39By the time protests are against you, it means that you do not have enough channels
01:09:46to reach to the people. You're not communicating to the people and with the people. For me,
01:09:52it will be about the open door policy. And when you organize Nairobi into boroughs, for example,
01:09:58you have your people who are bringing you the proper priorities. Nairobi needs a manager, not a
01:10:03politician. As a manager, I'll actually be spending time in the office as well. I'll be spending time
01:10:09with stakeholders. It will be an open door. Somebody is representing street families. They'll come and
01:10:18tell me about issues around street families. And you see, as long as people feel that you understand
01:10:25their problem, they'll not revolt against you. The problem comes when they feel that you're not
01:10:33listening to them. Then they'll force you to listen. So if there was ever a point where it says,
01:10:38Urungu must go, what do you do? I'll come and listen to them and ask them,
01:10:44why should they go? And they'll tell me he should go because of this and this. And I'll tell them,
01:10:50okay, allow me to change. I think you want to, like, you let the process and the system work as
01:11:01envisioned. Yes. Because the constitution is there. It's what guides us. If we don't respect the
01:11:07constitution, then we don't respect the country. And I always tell people, please remember that
01:11:12table's done. You might be on this side today, but you'll be on the other side tomorrow. And if you
01:11:18condone just harassment and breaking the law because you're on this side, when you're on the other side,
01:11:26what will happen. Okay. Many young people have a lot of voter apathy at the moment. Why would I vote?
01:11:37My vote doesn't matter. And not just within a presidential level, but throughout every position
01:11:47or every seat that we'll be voting for in the next year and a half. How would you encourage somebody,
01:11:53a first time voter, even a second time voter who feels as if the system isn't working? It doesn't
01:12:01represent what I want. You see, it's all about civic education. I think we need a lot more civic
01:12:09education than we've been doing. And that's why for me, I support the efforts and works of the civil
01:12:15societies to bring about civic education too. It's also good that now we have social platforms,
01:12:23social media has brought the civic education closer to the people. Today, I talk to young
01:12:30people and ask them, did you vote last time? No. No. Had you attained the age of voting last time?
01:12:37They're like, yes. Will you vote this time? Yes. That's what I'm getting from young people. I hear no
01:12:44often. Yes. I hear yes. The only part I hear no is when I ask them, are you registered to vote?
01:12:49They say no. Yeah. So there's a call to action for them to register. But a lot of them actually feel
01:12:56that they have a say. The demonstrations that have been happening are not in vain because,
01:13:01especially like the finance bill 2024, demonstrations showed people that the power
01:13:07is with the people. And once people realize that they are the ones with the power, then the next
01:13:13thing is to take action. How do you take action? Vote. There's absolutely no other way for you
01:13:19to pick the direction that this country can go beyond at the polls. And also, you're vocal enough as a young
01:13:30person to change the attitudes and opinions of people around you. If you feel that the direction
01:13:38that your opinion is better than theirs. Even, of course, has their own opinion. But you can always
01:13:44work towards bringing people towards a common opinion that leads to a better Kenya. So for me,
01:13:51I will encourage young people to take the future into their own hands. I was in one of the hospitals
01:14:01the other day. One of my supporters had gotten a baby. And we had gone there to celebrate the baby. And
01:14:09I realized that this baby will be there in 2100 plus. Yeah. Wow. It may be 70 years old. Yes.
01:14:212100, they'll only be 75. So in 2120, they'll be 95 years old. So it's highly unlikely that we will. It's actually
01:14:31not possible that we'll be there in 2100, some of us. So it means that this country is not ours.
01:14:38We're only keeping it and holding it for future generations. So once we realize that,
01:14:44then maybe we'll take the right actions to bring about change and be the change ourselves.
01:14:53Thank you so much Irungu Nyakera for joining us this episode for a discussion on the state
01:15:01of the nation and most especially Nairobi County. We need to take action in your words, right? Stand at
01:15:11the forefront of the development of our country. We may not be here in 100 years, but our children will
01:15:17be in our great grandchildren and our grandchildren as well. And it's to take heart in the system of
01:15:26governance and its success. Thank you for watching Straight Talk. I'm your host Yvonne Chege. Join us again.
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