- 8 months ago
A political showdown has erupted over the Centre's proposed 'Viksit Bharat Guarantee for Rozgar and Ajeevika Mission (Gramin)' or VB-G Ram G Bill, which aims to repeal and replace the UPA-era MGNREGA.
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00:00What are the proposed G. Ramji bill changes? Why is this bill? How does it compare with the
00:05Maganrega, which was, remember, the flagship Rural Employment Guarantee Act of the UPA
00:11government? Under Maganrega, rural households were guaranteed 100 days of employment. The
00:16G. Ramji bill proposes to increase this to 125 days. But the funding patterns have changed.
00:22Maganrega provided 100% central funding for wages, 75% for material costs. The new bill
00:29shifts it to a 60-40 centre-state funding ratio with 90% central funding for North East
00:36states, Jammu and Kashmir and the Himalayan states. Unlike Maganrega, which offered work
00:41throughout the year, the new bill says it will give no employment during 60 days of peak agricultural
00:46season. Wage payments will be faster according to the government under the G. Ramji bill,
00:52claiming they will reduce the time from 15 days to one week. The planning authority also shifts
00:58as states prepare annual work plans under Maganrega. Now, it is the centre that will determine
01:05statewide allocations under this bill. Additionally, while the centre must fund all demanded work
01:12under Maganrega, states bear the extra cost if the budget is exceeded. Finally, work under
01:19Maganrega spanned broad categories. The G. Ramji bill focuses on four priority areas, water security,
01:25rural infrastructure, livelihood infrastructure and disaster management. I am going to look at
01:32two aspects to it. One, the social welfare and economic aspects and the political aspects.
01:38I am going to start with the politics. What is the real objective of this G. Ramji bill?
01:43Is the G. Ramji bill progressive or regressive? Squeeze on central funds, will it derail job schemes?
01:50Is it the end of the road for the UPA flagship Maganrega? Has Maganrega become outdated?
01:56Joining me now first on the political face-off is Shehzad Poonawalla, national spokesperson BJP
02:01and Dr. Ajay Kumar, national spokesperson Congress. Let's turn to you Shehzad Poonawalla first.
02:08It's not just about the name change. You're removing Mahatma Gandhi's name and making it the G. Ramji bill,
02:15which has attracted some attention. But it's the fact that the entire burden or a large share of the burden
02:20now will move from centre to states. And therefore, the opposition is alleging the centre doesn't want
02:27to bear the burden of a rural employment guarantee scheme. Your response, Mr. Poonawalla.
02:33First of all, let me address the name change aspect because you started off with that. Rajdeep,
02:42and don't take this personally or please don't allow the congressperson to take it personally.
02:46Supposing a lady named Antonia changes her name to Sonia because she doesn't like her name,
02:51that is name change. But if a new Italian child is born and his name is Rahul, that's a new child.
02:57It's a new creation. So you won't say Rahul has changed his name. Rahul has been born and therefore
03:03this is a new name that has been given to a new entity. This VB J. Ramji has not replaced any names.
03:10It has not changed any names. It literally describes what the law stands for. It's a Viksit Bharat law.
03:16It's aimed at Viksit Bharat. It is a guarantee for Rozgar and Ajivika. It is a mission mode that will
03:22be applied and it is for Grami Lilaka. So now those are nice words, sir. But at the end of the day,
03:28sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, I don't want to go into the name, but the, you know,
03:31I didn't want to focus only on the name change, but the fact Mr. Poonawalla is Mahatma Gandhi's name
03:36is gone. Yes or no? That is the truth. We'll come to the real content change in a moment,
03:41but the Mahatma Gandhi's name has gone. You can do all the twists and turns that you want.
03:46Let me address it in a different way, Razdeep. Mahatma Gandhi ji had four or five pillars
03:55of his vichar. Ram, Gram, Swadeshi, Satya, Swachata. Swachata who has taken forward?
04:03Modi ji. Khadi, Swadeshi who has taken forward? Modi ji. Ram ko kis ne apna ya? Rom ko kis ne
04:09apna ya? Bol ni ki zaururata nahi? Or isme toh gram ki hii puri uplabdi hai? And by the
04:14way, you have quoted one thing that the entire plans will be devised by the center of the state.
04:19That is not correct. The center has given four themes. Those four themes are also related
04:24to rural areas, but it will be a bottoms up approach. The panchayat will decide what work
04:28has to be done. It will be 125 days of guarantee. Now there will be more transparency because it
04:33is going to be AI enabled. It is going to be enabled with GPS monitoring. It is going to have
04:38not just social audit, but it is going to be monitoring real time. The payments will be
04:42quicker. So it is a completely new system. But I have two or three points. You said that
04:46the states have to now shell out more. Let me just have 10-20 seconds on that. The very
04:50first proposal that states to share more was given by Mr. P. Chidambrabh. Somebody you
04:55interview very regularly Rajdeep and he has been the finance minister of the country. You
04:59get opportunity to interview also. You ask him when you next time interview him. He was
05:03the one who said that states should share more so that they are more responsible because
05:07we have seen the kind of corruption that takes place whether it is in West Bengal or it was
05:10previously in Uttar Pradesh which Jairam Ramesh used to flag. Secondly, you have said that
05:15there will be a pause. That pause idea also was given by Sharat Pawar. Can I agree with
05:19it? Why? Because during the agricultural period, the labor used to become scarce. That used to
05:24mean more cost input for the farmers. So today who are opposing VB Jiramji, are they opposing the
05:29farmers getting the labor availability during harvest season at a lower cost? Are they saying Sharat
05:35power was anti Mahatma Gandhi? They must evaluate before they speak. Thirdly, the states share. Now,
05:40let me just come down to that also. Rajdeep, when the UPA government was there and they wanted to chop
05:46off the state contribution, national contribution, at that time states were getting 31 percent of the
05:51devoluted funds. Today they get 41 percent. The states got 22 lakh crores under Manmohan Singh. Today we
05:56have given them 85 lakh crores. And this is over and above the fact that we have given tap water
06:01connections, Ayushman Bharat scheme. They have given rural roads. They have given plethora of
06:06schemes like Nal Se Jal Yojana, Ujwalai Yojana, Kisan Samman Niti. All of this has been funded by the
06:12center. So despite giving more things on social welfare by the center, despite more funds being
06:17devoluted to the states, we are spending, we are ensuring that the states continue to run this
06:22project with more responsibility. By the way, the UPA, now you said that Manrega is the end of
06:27road. You know, Jairam Ramesh, last sentence, just 10 seconds, because I have met you after so many
06:32days. Rajdeep, I was really missing you also. And God bless you with great health. And please keep
06:36smiling and please keep listening to good music. Okay, so Mr. Jairam Ramesh has said Manrega is not a
06:42permanent solution back in 2006-2007. Do you know that? And today, Manrega, which had come down to 33,000
06:50crore funding during the UPA tenure, we took it right up to 80,000 crores. We gave almost 8 lakh crores.
06:55The UPA during its 10 years gave 1.9 lakh crores. And last statement, Rajdeep, you said Mahatma Gandhi
07:00Kaapman. When Narega was bought in 2004-05, it did not have Mahatma Gandhi's name. This was later on
07:06attached in 2009. So were they insulting Mahatma Gandhi? When they changed the Jawaar Yojana to Narega, did they insult Jawaarji?
07:13Mr. Kunawala, I gave you uninterrupted time. Ajay Kumar, you will get the same benefit to answer.
07:19Sir, certain important points that Mr. Kunawala has made. In particular, that the belief is that this scheme
07:26needed improvement, that the Maganrega scheme as it existed led to a lack of accountability, there was
07:33corruption and therefore it needs greater monitoring. This will be ensured by the new scheme with specific
07:40targets being set. How do you respond?
07:43So, like he told a story. You know, whenever you want to go to a bus stand in India,
07:51you'll have a snake charmer and you'll get distracted and you'll go to your pocket market.
07:56No offense meant to a political party, but this is what the pocket market is happening in this party.
08:01The present ruling party, for the simple reason, let me explain to you.
08:06The second part, and I'll come in details, the second part is on corruption. A government which gives
08:1225,000 crores to a business house and gets 800 crores of
08:17electoral bond is talking on corruption.
08:19I mean, what kind of nonsensical spiel is this, you know? Every day you hear these guys are, you know,
08:26robbing and robbing the country, settling schools, Sardes area, this, that. So, I don't want to get into the
08:32corruption. This is humongous. Now, coming to the scheme.
08:38This scheme is a total demolishing of the rights of the rural poor. Because look at the intent.
08:50They'll keep quoting Sharad Pawa. They'll keep quoting Chidambaram. The question is, we brought
08:54the Mandrega. It continued to be there and we have spoken for it. What we stand in the parliament and
08:58speak about it is what is the Congress stand. And the stand is what? That you should leave people
09:03during the sowing season. The reason was that increased the bargaining power of the rural labor.
09:13The rural labor were able to negotiate better rates. Now, these
09:20party of the rich, party of the connected will ensure that the poor village labor has got no bargaining
09:26tool. The bill promises 125 days guaranteed labor as opposed to 100. When you say it is
09:33going to destroy the scheme, you have to give a specific reason why you say it's going to destroy
09:38Mandrega. So, indulge me. I will give you free health care, but there is no hospital. I will give
09:45you 125 days, but the budget we will decide. We will fix the budget. What? This is nonsense. I will give you
09:52free food, but there is no ration shop. So, the 125 days is a lie. And I'll explain to you because it is
10:01the Mandrega was demand-oriented. You could demand. It was by law that you had to get it. Is 125 days
10:09a demand a legal entity? No. Can you demand and say that no, you will get it? No. Second issue, typical
10:16BJP style. I will decide what the village wants. Earlier, the village would decide. The village would
10:23decide what is the work to be needed. These guys are telling you that a village in Akbarpur and Bihar
10:28will tell you. Or you, Mr. Modi and Mr. Amitsha will know what the village needs. The third important
10:35point. Mr. Poonawala forgets that money increases as the budget increases. Percentage of GDP, sir,
10:43that is the economics. But economics is not the strong point. They have not increased the budget
10:48on education, health or rural development at all. They have reduced the budget on percentage. It is
10:54always a percentage. But they will come with your friends. Obviously, the country's economic budget
10:58has increased from 2004 to 2025. Obviously, the numbers will change. It's percentage, sir. So,
11:04let's, next time, the BJP, my colleague from BJP should bring the percentage number. The most important
11:11part. 60-40. You think we had Jawar, Jawar, Rozgar, Yojna earlier before 2004. 60-40. You think anybody,
11:22any state would have the money? You have reduced. They are saying you have given more money. The
11:28percentage, the devolution of money, the devolution of money has reduced and the ability of the
11:34states in percentage income has come down by the states because GST council, they stopped giving
11:39the, you know, the automatic yearly increase that. Now, they are saying if the
11:45Jiramji bill is going to be implemented, if it's 1.5 lakh crores, Rajdeep, mark my words,
11:5190,000 they will pay, 60,000 the states will pay. Earlier, the states were only paying 75% of the
11:59material cost. And that is why in COVID, who saved this country? Who's brought, who saved this nation
12:08of the poor people from hunger? And I'll tell you what most important, they have always reservation.
12:12And I come from Jharkhand. I'll tell you only 10 seconds. No, I'll tell you only 10 seconds.
12:18You have stopped hearing about diarrheal deaths in the tribal areas by and large. You have stopped
12:24hearing about malnutrition in colonies. Because the earning had increased. The tribals were insured.
12:32The schedule costs were insured. The women were insured. They have thrown all these people under the bus.
12:39And then… Okay, I've listened to you. Mr. Dr. Ajay Kumar, I think you have to be fair. I've listened to
12:45both of you patiently. Shazad Poonawalla, it again comes to intent. You see,
12:50every government wants to seemingly impose its stamp on welfare schemes. And the Modi government has
12:58tried to build large welfare schemes. They've succeeded to some extent by creating a large pool
13:03of beneficiaries or the so-called labharatis of government schemes. Here you have a centrally
13:09sponsored scheme, which could be improved on. I don't think anyone would doubt that every scheme needs
13:14improvement. But there is a danger by making it another centrally sponsored scheme, that you're not
13:21actually improving it. You're simply making it yet another attempt by the center to dictate terms to
13:30the state. It will actually go against the federal spirit.
13:33So, let me address this one by one. First, you rightly used the most important word of the debate,
13:43Rajdeep Intent. There was once upon a time, two generations, three generations,
13:48Garibi Hatao was in Nara, never in Niyat. Narendra Modi came, 25 crore loge ko garibi se nikala.
13:54Narendra Modi came, per capita income dugna hua. Narendra Modi came, 45 crore loge ko garibi
14:00bavaas mila. Narendra Modi came, 10 crore toilet bana. Narendra Modi came, 11 crore loge ko nal se jal
14:06mila. This is intent and outcome. The two are there. You can see that Nara kis ne diya and
14:13niti gat rup se kis ne apnaya and that is why Narajdeep three times election in the center, election
14:19after election in Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Haryana, Assam, Tripura, Uttar Pradesh,
14:24Uttarakhand, which state has Congress repeated ever from 2011 onwards? Because we deliver.
14:29Point number two on the states. Rajdeep, you are too senior a journalist and too well-read
14:34a journalist to not know that Chidambaram mooted the idea that state contribution should be there
14:38from two perspectives. One, because state's work is also being done here and two states should take
14:44the onus of better accountability. Was Chidambaram anti-federalism? In fact, we have given much more
14:49to the states. Let me give you one more akhada. During the UPA, Karnataka, non-BJP state, got 80,000 crores
14:55in 10 years. Today, it has got 2.8 lakh crores in funds. What are we against states? Let's go to
15:01the third point. My dear friend, Ajay Kumar, very respected police officer during his time.
15:05How can he say that the village panchait won't decide? Have you read of VGPP? The village gram
15:10panchait plan will be the one that will demand that we want to do this work. Yes, there are four
15:16themes that have been created. So it aligns with a national infrastructure. We are not just digging a
15:20hole, filling the hole, digging a hole, filling the hole. We have a national plan that how we need
15:25to align it with the national infrastructure. Just 20 seconds. So basically, that's the point. The
15:30center knows best. You're telling me today, you're telling me, Mr. Poonawalla, the center alone knows
15:35best. No state government knows how to build productive assets. Am I correct? Don't twist.
15:41That's what you said. Don't twist. Rajdeep, don't twist. No, I did not say this. And your English
15:48comprehension is very good, by grace of God. So don't twist. I'll tell you again. Center has said,
15:53water security, rural infra, livelihoods and climate resilience. These are four themes.
15:59Village panchait has to decide. In fact, let me tell you the most important point,
16:03which we have all missed. Narega was only about employment, alternate employment. This is
16:07employment plus Aajivika. Aajivika means livelihood or self-employment opportunity. So the broader spectrum
16:14is there to give the availability of money. And by the way, last point, 10 seconds just bear with me.
16:19It is 125 days already, plus 60 days, they will always get farm work. So it is 185 days. As opposed
16:26to Aajivika's tenure, when it was 100 days, par wo bhi nahi diya.
16:32Okay, I want to get Aajivika in for a final word. You see, Aajivika, just as I asked Mr. Poonawalla, that the fear
16:38is there of the intent of the government to dictate terms to the state, are you also engaging in fear
16:45mongering? That if there is greater accountability and transparency, what's the harm? What's the harm
16:52if the center decides we have four clear areas where we will allow investments to take place and we will
16:59monitor it? So it's like the great leap forward from China, where everybody was fudging the data,
17:08the Chinese said that from the top will become the world's greatest nation in terms of steel
17:13production. People started melting their own steel pots. What are you trying to bring this?
17:19By the way, Shahzad made a mistake. The plan is Vixit Gram Panchad plan will be sitting over the
17:26prime minister. Gatti Shakti layers and national template to design what a village needs. This was
17:33a scheme to provide employment to the rural poor. It is not fear mongering. You have ensured there is
17:41no reservation for CST OPCs. You have ensured there is no availability of labor during the
17:46agriculture period so that the negotiations stop. Most important, you said that people of India
17:50India and the state, we will not provide the money because we want this program to die.
17:56And believe me, Rajdeep, this 60-40, if your intention was good, why don't you pay the same
18:03amount which you were doing earlier? Why don't you guarantee it? You may guarantee it. Why don't you
18:09give 95-90-10? Why is it you did 60-40? Because you want to squeeze the states. You want to torture the
18:17states. And you did that in Bengal. You will do it in other parts of India. It is a scheme which is
18:22insulted. I've heard both of you patiently. I've heard the politics played out of it. And I appreciate
18:31that both of you have come with your points strongly on the debate. I want to widen it now. I appreciate
18:37Shahzad Ajoy joining me to look at the real economics of it. Because remember, this has been a flagship scheme
18:45for the country. Hence, we want to spend a little bit more time. Achievements of Magandrega first.
18:51Provided livelihood security to crores of rural households. Reduced poverty and distress migration.
18:58Empowered the marginalized groups. Promoted gender equality. Creation of durable assets and
19:04rural infrastructure. Increased rural wages benefited agricultural laborers indirectly. What is the
19:10criticism of Magandrega? There were frequent delays beyond the mandated 15 days in paying up. There was
19:16a bureaucracy. Many households claimed they received far fewer than the 100 days of employment promise.
19:22There was corruption and leakages through fake job cards created, ghost workers etc. There was delays in
19:29project completion, irregular inspections, substandard assets. Insufficient funding compared to demand led to a
19:37over rationing of work. And there was wide state level disparities. At this moment, I am joined by
19:44Professor Joh Drez. Joh was one of those, Professor Drez was one of those who in the UPA years in a way shaped
19:51Magandrega. Also Shankar Ayer, political economist and author and columnist joins me. I want to come to
19:57Joh Drez. You may have heard much of what the politicians say. The BJP is very clear. We are not
20:04demolishing Magandrega but bringing a much more improved scheme for rural employment. 125 days.
20:13It will be more fiscally responsible. We will have specific targeted areas where the investments will
20:20be brought in. Why are you and others saying that this is a disaster?
20:25Radeep, thank you for having me. I am afraid that I was not able to hear the previous speakers. There is
20:31something lacking in your system. So I may repeat some of the things they said. But this is not what
20:38you have described just now. It is not what is happening. Let's be very clear.
20:41What are your principal objections? I will come to that in a second. But let's first be clear about what is happening.
20:47Firstly, this new bill repeals the Employment Guarantee Act, Narega. It is not just renaming,
20:53it is certainly not revamping. It repeals it. I will just read the relevant line from section 37 of this
20:59bill. The Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act, 2005, together with all rules,
21:06notifications, schemes, orders and guidelines shall stand repealed. So not just the act, everything,
21:14the schemes, orders, notifications, everything. Not right now, when the new scheme comes into
21:20force. Now, so repeal, junk, Narega, bring in a new scheme. This new scheme is not an employment
21:28guarantee. Why? Because the central government retains all the powers. It has, you know, it can decide
21:35when the scheme, where and when the scheme comes into force, the financial allocations, the wage risk,
21:40almost everything, and it has no significant obligations. The worst part of this discretion
21:46is what we call the switch of clause. I'll just read it very quickly. It says, the state government
21:53shall, in such rural areas in the state as may be notified by the central government, in such rural
22:00areas of the state as may be notified by the central government, provide to every household whose adult
22:07members volunteer to do unskilled manual work, not less than 125 days of guaranteed diploma. So this
22:13switch of clause basically says that it is the discretion of the central government to decide
22:19where and when the scheme comes into effect. So there's no guarantee. This is like saying,
22:24I give you a work guarantee, but I don't guarantee that the guarantee will come into effect. Incidentally,
22:31in 2004, when the original Narega was in parliament, just before that actually, the central government had
22:39also tried to smuggle in a switch of clause, saying exactly the same thing. And obviously,
22:45from the central government's point of view, it makes sense. The central government wants to keep
22:49control. It's safer for them to be able to decide where and when the scheme comes into force.
22:53So is it a switch of clause or simply the central government, Chaudh Rez, deciding where and how
22:59and when the money will be put? They are not saying we will not give you 125 days of
23:03employment guarantee. They are saying it is up to us. We decide. We decide where and when.
23:08The center decides. And let us be clear, this kind of discretionary powers have already been misused.
23:13In West Bengal and the government, the central government has never been able to explain clearly
23:23for what reason, even in parliament, even in Iraq. The central government says there was misuse of
23:28Maganrega funds by Bengal. Hence, the funds were not being transferred. Is the argument,
23:33which has been denied by the West Bengal government saying because it's an opposition government,
23:37they have been denied the funds. They never gave any evidence. And even in parliament,
23:42they were not able to give any details. And they never agreed to share under the RTI Act,
23:51the correspondence that they had with the West Bengal government on this matter.
23:54So you're saying that under the scheme, just to understand, you're saying the way the scheme is
23:59framed, it gives huge discretionary powers to the center to decide which project will go to which state,
24:05when will it be done. It's not Gram Panchay driven. It's not bottom up as the BJP is claiming,
24:11where the Gram Panchay will decide how the money is to be spent. You're saying it's another
24:16centrally sponsored scheme, where the center will have all the powers. Am I correct?
24:21And that's the difference between Maganrega and this scheme? Well, it's part of the difference.
24:25Yes. Another important discretionary power is the power to decide the statewide allocations,
24:31the so-called statewide normative allocations. So the central government will decide how much to give
24:37to each state. Within that allocation determined by the center, there will be 60-40 sharing. And beyond
24:44that, it will be 100-percent sharing contribution from the states. So if the central government decides,
24:50for example, that Kerala is well-off enough to do this on its own, it doesn't need any allocation,
24:56then Kerala will have to pay 100 percent or any other state for that matter.
25:01Okay. Let me bring in Shankar. I'll come to you for more to look at why you are worried about what
25:07this will do to rural employment in particular. But Shankar are here. There were those who said
25:12Maganrega was a white elephant. That Maganrega led to corruption and leakages. It led to non-productive
25:18assets being built. Do you see this present Ji Ram Ji or Viksit Bharat Ji Ram Ji? It's a tongue twister
25:25becoming, overcoming some of those criticisms. Or do you believe, as John Drez is suggesting here,
25:32that this will actually create a central bureaucracy over how monies are distributed?
25:44Well, I don't know whether apples and oranges can be compared, Rajdeep. This is a completely
25:48different beast that has been created. The NG and RGS was actually a justiciable act, which allowed
25:59people to claim jobs. Now, that aspect seems very vague and unclear in the wording of the new Ji Rab Ji bill
26:12here. All I see in the name twist change is that the burden of alleviating misery has been shifted from
26:23Mahatma Gandhi to Lord Ram. And hopefully that will bring in a better objective and outcomes to this. But
26:32if you look at both the bills, Rajdeep, let me sort of address the optics and the reality. 125 days target is all
26:43very good. But across the last 20 years, if you see less than 10% of the job claimants have got 100 days
26:53of employment. The maximum employment that they have got is 43, 48, 52, depending on the year.
27:00The second aspect is that, you know, the issue of protecting farmers' interest by a switch-off mechanism for
27:11season. Now, I don't know which farmers are being protected here, because are they those 80% who own less than
27:20one and a half hectares, or the large farmers? And should the government of India really be deciding who gets
27:27labor from where? Settle that in one level. Okay. The third aspect is, what will the state governments
27:36pay and what will be the central government? There could be an argument that state governments need
27:40to share a part of the burden. But that all could have been decided once the Finance Commission report,
27:48the next Finance Commission report was in, and this could have been a larger, more wider debate.
27:56The fourth aspect is the centralization issue, which is an irony in itself, because
28:02till recently, the BJP used to be about federalism. And so, the history tells us largely that all major
28:11reforms in India have come from the states. MGNREGS itself was born in the district of Sangli as a drought
28:22relief program, which got sort of converted into a food for work program, and then got nationalized.
28:29So, do the states know better, or does the center know better? It's always a constant debate in India.
28:38I welcome the changes, the modernization that has been introduced, but I am not sure whether these
28:46changes will ensure the rights. Finally, Narega was supposed to keep,
28:55give or sort of allow flow for wages in the rural areas when jobs are scarce. I am not sure whether that
29:10entanglement, that protection that was given earlier will exist with all the conditions of seasonality, jobs and everything.
29:19Okay, let me bring in Jodh Rez again, because Jodh Rez, surely you will also accept that what is key is not just
29:28outlays, but outcomes. There have been critics of Maganrega, you saw some of the criticism, that they
29:33haven't created enough productive assets, they've not been focused enough. Now, in this new scheme,
29:38setting certain clear objectives will help in creating productive assets, will ensure greater
29:45accountability and thereby the money will be spent on concrete outcomes, not just outlays. How will you respond?
29:54Rajdeep, again, I could not hear the other speaker, so I hope I don't answer cross purposes.
29:59But first of all, let me say that there has been a lot of research on Narega and all the benefits that
30:06you mentioned earlier, you know, reduction of poverty, contribution to social equity, protection
30:12of the environment, creation of productive assets, and so on. These benefits are quite well documented.
30:18I mean, there are literally hundreds of research papers on Narega, and particularly for the early
30:23phase, like the first five, six years, for which we have quite a lot of data, including independent
30:28household survey data from the National Sample Survey, the India Human Development Survey, and so on.
30:34For more recent years, there's not so much data. But we know for a fact that there was a significant
30:40phase when Narega was doing quite well and generating very substantial benefits on a very large scale.
30:46And that is why I said and wrote earlier today that if there's one thing and one scheme for which India
30:53deserves to be known as Vishwa Guru, it is employment guarantee, because India was the first country to
30:58introduce employment guarantee, not in 2005, but in the early 1970s, in Maharashtra, and then in 2005,
31:04at the national level, and with very significant achievements. This is something that is inspiring
31:11the whole world. And that's why it's so sad to see that India is turning its back to this achievement.
31:15But I must push you. Why do you say it's turning its back? The government will say we're not doing
31:20away with the employment guarantee scheme. We're just monitoring it more effectively.
31:25No, no. As I explained, the guarantee itself is being undermined. Let me also quickly comment
31:29on this issue of cost sharing. You see, the reason why it's not just cost sharing, because beyond the
31:35point, as I explained, it's 100 percent state sharing at the discretion of the center. Now, the reason
31:41why this can be so destructive is that the state governments, unlike the central government, have
31:47what is called a hard budget constraint. Beyond the point, they can't spend. The central government can
31:52always borrow or print money. So there's always some guarantee that funds can be made available from
31:58somewhere. At the state level, it's not like that. And that is why at the state level, and especially in
32:02the poorer states, like in where I live, you see rampant delays in payments to lower level functionaries,
32:10delays in pensions, sometimes for months, sometimes for a whole year. And this is what is going to
32:14happen with Narega. You see, I think that is a very strong point that you make. And I think the fear,
32:21of course, is that all these contentious issues are being pushed through parliament without debate.
32:26You are having a debate tonight as it's going on till midnight. But what about legislative oversight?
32:31What about scrutiny? What about getting experts like Jaundre, like Shankaraya, like others,
32:37to put their views forward, and then improve the quality? Will bureaucrats and the center knows
32:42best attitude prevail over the need for proper legislative oversight? Professor Dreyas, Shankaraya,
32:50for joining me and explaining to us what you believe are your concerns, Professor Dreyas,
32:56and Shankaraya for giving us your perspective. Thank you so much. Parliament will debate this well past midnight.
33:02On the right to do it.
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