- 2 days ago
In this Special Report, the panel debates the DMK's move to impeach Madras High Court Justice G.R. Swaminathan over the Thiruparankundram Deepam order. DMK Spokesperson A. Saravanan defends the state's refusal to implement the order, stating, 'Irony jumped from the cliff... when Anurag Thakur... is speaking about protecting religion.' BJP National Spokesperson Rohan Gupta counters, accusing the DMK of 'appeasement politics' and defying the judiciary. Supreme Court Advocate K.V. Dhananjay and Senior Journalist Shekhar Iyer analyze the legal implications.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Let me now bring in our political guests and our analysts, Mr. Sarvanan.
00:04A. Sarvanan is the spokesperson for the DMK joining us on this broadcast.
00:08Rohan Gupta is the national spokesperson of the Bharatiya Janata Party joining me on the show.
00:13Shekhar Iyer is a senior journalist and analyst joining us on the show.
00:17Dhanan Jai, Mr. K. V. Dhanan Jai is an advocate in the Supreme Court.
00:20Gentlemen, welcome.
00:21Mr. Sarvanan, Anurag Thakur in Parliament asked,
00:24why are Hindus being subjected to discrimination in Tamil Nadu,
00:29a state which he believes is becoming a symbol of anti-Sanathan dharm?
00:35Quoting statements or citing statements of DMK ministers in the past against Sanathan dharm.
00:42Your take on this, sir?
00:44Yeah, it is farcical.
00:47Irony jumped from the cliff and committed suicide
00:50when Anurag Thakur, the Goli Maro Salangha famous Anurag Thakur,
00:56is speaking about protecting religion.
00:59What other credibility he has except that making hate speeches.
01:03Apart from that, what credibility does this gentleman have?
01:06That apart, and Mr. Dingra, former judge of the Delhi High Court,
01:10was waxing eloquence about secularism,
01:14was waxing eloquence about judicial independence and all that.
01:17Where did he go when Justice Muralidar was transferred midnight?
01:22He ordered an FAR against this same gentleman who made a hate speech.
01:26Goli Maro Salangha, that is his only high point in his political career.
01:32When Justice Muralidar wanted to have an FAR against him,
01:35he was transferred midnight.
01:37He was made as a chief justice to the Madras High Court.
01:40He was not even allowed to do that.
01:42That is the kind of intimidation BJP practices.
01:46BJP does not have any moral right to talk about the independence of judiciary.
01:52This is one aspect.
01:54The other aspect is, when you speak of Sanatana Dharma,
01:58see, there is a fundamental difference.
02:01You, people from North India,
02:04especially people from this media and the BJP,
02:07they use Sanatana Dharma in synonymity with Hinduism.
02:12For us, Hinduism does not mean Sanatana Dharma.
02:15For us, Sanatana Dharma represents the rigid caste hierarchy practiced in Hinduism.
02:20We oppose that rigid caste hierarchy.
02:22And when we speak of which party is the party which is working for the welfare of the Hindus,
02:30nobody can beat the DMK.
02:32BJP is just doing lip service.
02:34They just want votes on the name of...
02:37Sir, I may disagree with you on a lot of aspects,
02:39but we leave that for another debate.
02:40And especially on Sanatana Dharma,
02:43you may have your belief on that,
02:45but I want to bring in Rohan Gupta to respond.
02:48Rohan Gupta, the Tamil Nadu government
02:51and the Hindu Religious Charitable Endowment Department
02:54argued that there was no hereditary, family duty, ritual grant,
02:59or historic precedent for lighting a lamp at that very specific pillar.
03:04And doing so could disrupt communal harmony
03:06and create a law and order situation.
03:08They maintained that the tradition of lighting a lamp at a usual spot was followed, sir.
03:14Respond to what Mr. Sarvanan said and to my question.
03:18See, this is a serious issue.
03:20When these people talk about constitution and, you know,
03:23institution, constitution, insult of court,
03:26what they are doing now?
03:27This is not only insult of Hindu to our Sanatana.
03:30This is larger insult of our judicial system.
03:33What they are talking about?
03:34It is as simple as that.
03:35Any high court order needs to be implemented.
03:37Whether you feel wrong, right, all these things, yes, you have system of appealing.
03:42But how dare you stop the implementation of high court order, which is already passed?
03:46And eye-opening, this is really shocking.
03:48The whole country has to see that this government,
03:50which has been famous for making anti-Sanatana statement, anti-Hindu statement,
03:55now they have stooped to such a low level for their appeasement politics
03:58that they have stopped implementation of high court order.
04:01What more you can expect?
04:03Definitely, they can disagree with whatever has happened.
04:06But does that give them power as a state government to defy the order of high court?
04:11No, it doesn't.
04:12Before the lati charge against the Hindu devotees, why?
04:19Is this India or something else?
04:22Are we outside India?
04:24No, we are part of India.
04:25This is shocking that wherever India government, governments are there,
04:28this is going to happen to Sanatana.
04:30This is really shocking.
04:31And again, they are bringing impeachment motion.
04:34Why?
04:34Okay.
04:34What is happening?
04:35So, I'll complete impeachment in just a moment.
04:37But on the specific issue of Sanatana, Mr. Sarvanan wants to respond.
04:40Go ahead, sir.
04:41Yeah, yeah.
04:41See, see, again, again, there is this misconception.
04:44See, the Tamil Nadu government did not,
04:47was not in a position to implement the order
04:49because law and order has to be maintained by the state government.
04:53Let us recall what Mr. Amit Shah said on the Supreme Allah issue.
04:56Why are you taking some marriage?
04:58Mr. Sarvanan, you speak on this issue.
05:00Don't divert.
05:00Shut up.
05:01Shut up.
05:01Don't divert.
05:02You speak on this issue.
05:02I don't need your advice.
05:05I don't need your advice.
05:06Don't divert.
05:06I know what to speak.
05:07You speak on this issue.
05:09You speak on this issue.
05:11Don't divert.
05:12How dare state government not implement order of high court?
05:16How dare state government not implement high court?
05:19This is one by one.
05:20One by one.
05:21Let one person speak.
05:23Okay, give me a moment.
05:24Give me a moment.
05:25Gentlemen, I know tempers are and emotions are very high.
05:29But can we have Mr. Sarvanan complete his point
05:31and Mr. Gupta will come back to you immediately.
05:33Mr. Sarvanan, complete your point.
05:35Request all our guests kindly keep it civil.
05:37Go ahead, sir.
05:38Ten seconds.
05:39What Mr. Amit Shah said,
05:41please don't pass orders which cannot be implemented
05:43in matters of religious freedom.
05:46This is what Mr. Amit Shah said on Savarimala issue
05:48that order was appealed and it was recalled.
05:51And here we were waiting for this appeal
05:53and one, these persons are not devotees.
05:56They are miscreants.
05:57They want to create communal disarmony
05:59in the state of Tamil Nadu.
06:00Thousand Amit Shah cannot do anything.
06:03As our chief minister rightly points out,
06:05Tamil Nadu is always out of control to Delhi.
06:08Your head-fettling narrative
06:10will not work in the state of Tamil Nadu.
06:12This judge has deliberately did not follow
06:15a division bench judgment of the same high court.
06:18And Mr. Justice Dhingra says,
06:20you can overrule a judgment.
06:22Single judge cannot overrule a division bench judgment.
06:25I'll get Mr. Dharanjad to cover on the legal aspect.
06:27Give me 10 seconds.
06:32Go ahead, sir.
06:33See, this is the problem.
06:34If Mr. Sarwanand shouts on the debate
06:36and feels that he's right,
06:37what are you talking?
06:38You are not implementing high court order.
06:41You can disagree with the high court judge.
06:43No, don't speak in the middle.
06:44Okay, Mr. Sarwanand only, Mr. Rohan.
06:46Don't shout.
06:47Don't shout.
06:48Please keep quiet.
06:49Please keep quiet.
06:50Don't speak.
06:51My point is simple.
06:52Even if they disagree with the high court judge order,
06:55what power does state government
06:56gets not to implement that?
06:58I have a very, very simple question.
07:00Does the state government believe in constitution?
07:02Yes.
07:02Do you respect judiciary?
07:03Yes.
07:04Definitely you go to Supreme Court
07:05if you feel something is wrong has happened.
07:07But how can you stop implementing high court's order?
07:09That shows the height of appeasement politics.
07:12That shows the height of, you know, insult.
07:15That shows height of allergy to Sanatan.
07:17That is my point here.
07:19You can definitely disagree with my point, Mr. Sarwanand.
07:21Does nobody give power to your government power
07:24to disagree with high court order?
07:26You please answer my specific question.
07:27I have to bring in Mr. Dhananjai.
07:29Can a court order lighting of a lamp
07:31lead to a communal flare-up in an ancient temple,
07:34Mr. Dhananjai?
07:35Is it not the job of the administration
07:38to ensure that a court order is followed
07:41and law and order maintained?
07:43It is, of course, a duty of the government
07:45to abide by the orders of a court.
07:47But the facts of this case, I think,
07:50are somewhat different.
07:50Now, let's come to the impeachment motion itself.
07:52I think that's an overkill.
07:54I don't believe an impeachment motion
07:57would lie in the manner that the DMK is suggesting.
08:00But having also said that,
08:01I think what the Honorable Justice did,
08:04I think, was a kind of an overkill
08:05on the facts of this case.
08:07You're not going to basically, you know,
08:11allow CISF, Central Industrial Security Force,
08:14to accompany somebody to a temple,
08:16more so when the whole practice itself
08:18is at some level mired in doubt, number one.
08:22Number two, and whatever judgment
08:23would be given by a learned single judge
08:25of a high court,
08:26certainly is not the final word in this country.
08:28It would be open to an appeal
08:30by the affected party before a division bench.
08:32So the court could not have said,
08:35I am going to pass an order
08:36and it must be executed
08:37within the next 24 hours or 48 hours.
08:39And if it was not executed,
08:41the court could have reserved contempt
08:43out for that matter.
08:44The court could have reserved
08:45the consideration for another time.
08:47So that order, I believe,
08:48was not quite warranted.
08:50But that doesn't mean
08:51that the DMK is justified
08:53in insisting on an impeachment
08:54because errors happen all the time.
08:56Now, that's just my subjective opinion.
08:58It's entirely possible.
08:59The majority don't believe
09:00that the judge was wrong in law.
09:02It's possible that...
09:03So let me bring in Shekhar Iyer
09:04for an analyst's view on this.
09:09Shekhar Iyer,
09:10the DMK fears a Barbary repeat
09:12in Tamil Nadu words to that effect
09:14and says their effort
09:15was only to ensure
09:17that there is no communal flare-up
09:18in an area where both Hindus and Muslims
09:21have lived in communal harmony
09:22for a very long time.
09:24So would the lighting of a lamp
09:27have lit a communal fire?
09:29There is no question of any Barbary
09:33happening in Tamil Nadu
09:35because Tamil Nadu is a completely
09:37a different scenario.
09:39I think what the DMK is worried now is
09:43and the way they went about this,
09:46the government particularly,
09:47and the party,
09:48is largely because of another factor.
09:51It is not Barbary they are worried about,
09:52another Barbary or another...
09:54they are worried about Vijay
09:55and his party,
09:57Tamil Nadu,
09:57because they feel
10:00that this new party
10:02that has come
10:03could cause the minorities
10:05who have been voting for DMK
10:06all year after year
10:08in election after election,
10:10they could get a choice
10:11and they could shift to Vijay.
10:14And the fact that
10:15he is back in public action,
10:17he has been holding meetings,
10:18he did one in Puducheri,
10:20there have been several restrictions
10:22for him to hold meetings
10:23in Tamil Nadu,
10:24but sooner or later
10:25as elections come,
10:26you know,
10:27he is going to be out in the field.
10:28They are more worried
10:29about the impact of that.
10:31Here the whole idea
10:32to the going to the extent of,
10:34you know,
10:34seeking impeachment
10:35and accusing
10:36that particular judge
10:37that he was favoring
10:39a community
10:39and that...
10:40because that's a kind
10:41of a narrative
10:42they feel
10:43if they can bring in
10:44that anti-Brahmin narrative
10:46that will help in
10:47causing disunity
10:48among Hindu groups.
10:49But their fear is
10:51Vijay
10:51and the Tamil Vintrikachi.
10:53Nothing to do with
10:53the creation of aandhiya
10:55in Tamil Nadu.
10:57That's a very interesting
10:58point you raise.
10:59Yes, yes.
11:01Mr. Sarwanan,
11:02that's your fear.
11:03You know,
11:04when the BJP says
11:05what you're doing is
11:06blatant Muslim appeasement
11:07or minority appeasement,
11:09this is a two-pronged strategy
11:11that the DMK is adopting,
11:13divide the Hindus,
11:14retain the Muslim votes.
11:16See,
11:17that's what,
11:18let me begin by saying
11:20that the DMK
11:21is a party
11:22which works
11:22for the upliftment
11:23of the Hindus
11:24unlike the BJP.
11:26BJP is worried
11:27only about
11:28just a particular
11:30group of Hindus,
11:31the upper caste Hindus.
11:32They're not worried
11:33about anybody else.
11:34But BJP,
11:35DMK,
11:36is a party
11:36which is for
11:38the majority
11:38of the Hindus,
11:40whatever said and done.
11:41And when it comes
11:42to Tiruparangundram,
11:43last hundred years,
11:45it has been lit
11:45in the same place
11:46on the eve of elections.
11:48The BJP thinks
11:49it can reap
11:50electoral dividends
11:51by trying to
11:52light a Deepam
11:52near Dargah,
11:54which has not happened.
11:55And today,
11:56the Archaeological Survey
11:57of India
11:57has given a clear reply
12:00that Deepatun,
12:02where the single judge
12:03wanted the Deepam
12:04to be lit,
12:05it's a survey stone.
12:07What kind of a joke
12:08is this?
12:08The judge orders
12:10Deepam to be lit
12:12in a survey stone
12:13built by the English?
12:15Is this what
12:15a thousand-year
12:16world tradition?
12:17That survey stone
12:18itself comes into existence
12:19some hundred years back.
12:21So, this is what
12:22the issue is.
12:24And these...
12:24Rohan Gupta
12:25wants to respond.
12:26Just a moment.
12:26Just a moment.
12:27When these persons,
12:29when they were asked
12:30to go and light,
12:32what did they do?
12:32They attacked the policemen.
12:34They are not devotees.
12:35They are thugs.
12:37And they are from
12:38a political party.
12:38So, there is
12:39an agenda behind this.
12:41If they are plain and simple...
12:43Rohan Gupta wants to respond
12:44because Rohan Gupta
12:45the DMK says in Tamil Nadu,
12:47it's the flame of equality
12:48that has been lit
12:50and will continue to shine.
12:52Nobody can extinguish it.
12:54They are saying
12:55you are trying to
12:56light a communal fire in the state.
12:59I will expose the duplicity.
13:00Now he says
13:01that order was different
13:03and BJP wanted to do the same.
13:05Then why they are doing
13:05for impeachment?
13:06Motion then.
13:07If they are not
13:08against the order,
13:09then this is the double standards.
13:11If you are not
13:11against the order,
13:12you should have implement
13:13what has been ordered.
13:14Then why you have stopped
13:15the implementation of the order
13:16and you have gone to
13:17a Supreme Court
13:17against the order?
13:18So, don't talk double things.
13:20Don't talk about Hindus.
13:21Hindus have seen
13:21enough insult from DMK,
13:23enough insult of Sanatan.
13:25I think that should be
13:25shame to this government
13:26who has not implemented
13:28court order
13:28just because of
13:29their political benefits,
13:31just because of
13:32their mentality
13:34of impeachment politics.
13:35What are you talking about?
13:37You yourself are
13:37deviating from the truth.
13:39You are yourself
13:40negating your original argument.
13:42Either you are
13:42with the judge order
13:43or you are against
13:44the judge order.
13:45If you are with
13:46the judge order,
13:46please implement
13:47the spirit of the order
13:48which has been passed.
13:49Don't go to Supreme Court.
13:50that clearly shows
13:51what is your mindset
13:52and people of Tamil Nadu
13:53will not leave you.
13:54Where is the question
13:55of upper caste Hindus here?
13:56It is question of Sanatan.
13:58It is a question of
13:58lots of devotees
13:59who go to the temple
14:00regularly.
14:0110 seconds, Sarvanand.
14:01I will explain within 10 seconds
14:08how BJP is anti-Hindu.
14:10See, in the all India
14:11medical seat quota,
14:1327 percentage seats
14:14should be reserved
14:15for OBD.
14:15Don't I like Mr. Sarvanand.
14:16The BJP failed to do that.
14:17You are talking about this issue.
14:18The BJP failed to do that.
14:19I know you don't have
14:20the government.
14:21You answer on this point.
14:22Under Mr. MK, Sarvanand.
14:23You answer,
14:24are you with the judge
14:25or you are against the judge?
14:26The BJP government
14:27will simply enforce it.
14:28Are you with the judge
14:29or you are against the judge?
14:30I know you are rattled.
14:31Are you with the judge order
14:32or you are against
14:33the judge order?
14:34Don't divert Mr. Sarvanand.
14:35You are caught badly.
14:37You cannot show
14:38your confidence today.
14:38Gentlemen,
14:39give me a moment
14:40because I want to bring in
14:41Mr. Dhananjai
14:42on the legal aspect of this.
14:44And though Mr. Dhananjai
14:45you have spoken
14:46that it's
14:48an overreach
14:48to move in
14:49for an impeachment.
14:50But the letter says
14:51if the MPs have reason
14:53even if that is taken
14:54at face value
14:55they are insufficient
14:56for impeachment.
14:58Is there merit
14:59in the contention
14:59that this is actually
15:00an attempt
15:01not to impeach
15:02but only to intimidate
15:04judges
15:05to stay in line?
15:07Yeah, I believe so.
15:08I don't think
15:09anybody takes
15:10this motion
15:11very seriously.
15:12It's just that
15:13the constitution
15:13prescribes
15:14a certain number
15:14of signatures
15:15to get a motion
15:16admitted.
15:16So I believe
15:18that many signatures
15:18have come about already
15:20and I don't believe
15:21there is any prospect
15:21of the judge
15:22being impeached.
15:23But there is
15:24every prospect
15:24that look
15:25at what happened
15:26in some other cases.
15:27Sometimes judges
15:28simply resign.
15:29And there's a possibility
15:31that the judge
15:32might be hurt
15:32with what just happened
15:33and there's also
15:34a possibility
15:35that feeling intimidated
15:36he may consider
15:37resignation.
15:38That's not good
15:38for the judiciary.
15:39and the DMK
15:41if it believes
15:41it has valid arguments
15:43to impeach
15:43the judgment
15:44that they should
15:45have done
15:45they should have
15:46promptly filed
15:46an appeal
15:46they don't have
15:47to take days
15:48together to file
15:48an appeal
15:49against an order
15:49of a single judge
15:50they could do
15:51that overnight
15:51and courts
15:52in fact
15:53sometimes accept
15:54in emergent situations
15:55appeals filed
15:56midnight
15:56and all that
15:57they should have
15:58done so
15:58so I believe
16:00this is at some level
16:01a kind of
16:02an intimidation
16:02and it should
16:03not be successful
16:04and it's understandable
16:05that several judges
16:07have come in support
16:08or rather
16:09against the
16:10impeachment motion
16:11and it's important
16:12for the judiciary
16:13also to take a
16:14tough stand
16:15against it.
16:15I don't think
16:16the impeachment motion
16:17was warranted at all
16:18and I also don't believe
16:19it's backed up
16:20by sufficient research
16:21you see
16:21to make an allegation
16:22that a judge
16:23is favoring
16:24a certain community
16:25it's easier
16:25to make that allegation
16:26it's going to be
16:27very difficult
16:28to back it up
16:29with data
16:29to provide
16:30many judgments
16:31and I don't believe
16:32that DMK
16:32perhaps has that
16:34research with them
16:35it's just a wild
16:36allegation
16:36that here is a judge
16:37who is
16:38I mean
16:38I do not know
16:39anything about the judge
16:40I do not know
16:41about the truth
16:41No and the fact
16:42that it's not just
16:42the DMK
16:43opposition India bloc
16:45so whether it's
16:45the Congress Party
16:46the Samajwadi Party
16:48including Uddhav Thakres
16:49Shiv Sena
16:50there are so many
16:51who are signatories
16:53to this Shekhar Aiyar
16:54but I want to
16:56ask you another question
16:57on what
16:58Rashtriya Swayamsevak
17:00Sangh
17:00Sarsankh Chalak
17:01Mohan Bhagwat
17:02said
17:03on the lines
17:04of Hindu
17:05awakening
17:06in Tamil Nadu
17:08and that will
17:08bring the
17:09desired result
17:10how do you
17:11read that
17:12statement
17:12already
17:14you know
17:15the Babri Masjid
17:16issue
17:16that really
17:17gives ammunition
17:18to the DMK
17:19government
17:19to go before
17:20the court
17:20and say
17:21in a matter
17:21like this
17:22considerable
17:22you know
17:23the courts
17:24will have to
17:24defer to the
17:25wisdom
17:25or to the
17:26judgment
17:26of the
17:26executive
17:27because
17:27of the
17:28executive
17:28but I want
17:30to just
17:30quickly bring in
17:31Shekhar Aiyar
17:31on what
17:32Mohan Bhagwat
17:33the RSS
17:33chief said
17:34that there is
17:35Hindu awakening
17:35taking place
17:36in Tamil Nadu
17:37now in the
17:38light of this
17:39Tiruparan Kundaram
17:40case
17:41how do you
17:42see that sir?
17:43Tiruparan Kundaram
17:44is considered
17:45one among the
17:46six abords
17:47of Lord
17:47Muruga
17:48or Karthikeya
17:49as we know
17:49in the north
17:50it's a very
17:51sacred to all
17:52Tamil
17:52and what
17:54has happened
17:54is because
17:55of actions
17:55of the DMK
17:56government
17:57and the
17:58DMK
17:58party
17:58and also
18:00its
18:01sister
18:02organizations
18:03like Dravid
18:04Rukaragam
18:04who have been
18:05constantly
18:06attacking Hindu
18:07symbols
18:07and as a
18:08way of their
18:09political narrative
18:10gradually what
18:11has happened
18:12is there has
18:12been a kind
18:13of a counter
18:14reaction
18:14the fact that
18:16even this
18:16whole episode
18:17has been
18:17blown up
18:18by the
18:18DMK
18:19to impress
18:20upon the
18:20minorities
18:21that we
18:22are the
18:22ones who
18:22can safeguard
18:23you if
18:24this becomes
18:24a big
18:25problem like
18:25Ayodhya
18:26because Muslims
18:27did not object
18:28to lighting of
18:29the lamp on
18:29a particular
18:30day that
18:31is Karthikey
18:32Karthikey is a
18:33festival of
18:34lights like
18:34like Deepavali
18:36like Deepavali
18:37the whole idea
18:38was to to
18:39convey to the
18:40minorities before
18:40elections look
18:41we are the
18:42ones guarding
18:43you we are
18:44even there to
18:44protect you from
18:45a future problem
18:46so do not
18:47consider other
18:48options like
18:49the Vijay
18:50Istanbul
18:50ventricut
18:51that is a
18:51political
18:52messaging involved
18:53that's where
18:53they went to
18:54the extent of
18:55moving an
18:55impeachment motion
18:56knowing very
18:57well that will
18:57never be accepted
18:58you cannot move
18:59an impeachment
19:00motion on the
19:01basis of an
19:01order or a
19:02judgment
19:02there is a lot
19:04of political
19:05intent in this
19:06messaging
19:06history
19:06and it's very
19:08interesting and
19:09it's only likely
19:09to intensify in
19:11the days and
19:11weeks ahead we
19:12will be tracking
19:12that story very
19:13closely gentlemen I
19:14want to thank you
19:14that's what I
19:16I
19:16want to thank you
19:17for
19:17being
19:19in
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