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In this episode of Newstrack, the focus is on the unprecedented showdown between the ruling DMK and the judiciary in Tamil Nadu.
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00:00Good evening, this is the News Track and I'm Maria Shaquille.
00:04The Madurai-Deepam controversy has ignited a rare showdown between the ruling DMK and the judiciary.
00:12What began as a matter of faith over a lamp-lighting order has escalated into a political flashpoint
00:18with DMK MPs moving an impeachment motion against Justice G.R. Swaminathan backed by 120 India Bloc MPs.
00:28The BJP has seized the moment, calling it proof of the opposition's anti-Hindu, anti-constitution stance
00:35while Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu M.K. Stalin has slammed rivals for weaponizing the Deepam for cheap politics.
00:45Though the DMK lacks the numbers to remove the judge,
00:48the move is aimed at sending a loud signal ahead of the 2026 Tamil Nadu elections.
00:54The question is, who is really preying on the right to pray?
00:59Has impeachment then become an intimidation tool?
01:04Is this political optics or a straight challenge to judiciary?
01:08I'll ask these questions to the guests who will be joining me shortly.
01:12But first up, here's what happened today.
01:14These are the pro-Hindu groups that are being forcefully removed from this location at this port.
01:28A religious spark.
01:29They are trying to remove the crowd from this particular area.
01:33A legal flashpoint.
01:35A political firestorm.
01:40The Madurai-Deepam controversy has now exploded into a rare showdown.
01:48The ruling DMK versus a sitting high court judge.
01:52What began as a matter of faith has morphed into an unprecedented clash
01:56between the state's political establishment and the judiciary.
01:59DMK MPs on Tuesday marched to Lok Sabha Speaker Oum Birla with an impeachment motion against Justice G.R. Swaminathan,
02:12a move backed by 120 MPs of the India bloc, including Priyanka Gandhi-Wadra and Akhilesh Yadam.
02:20The DMK's chart sheet against the judge is blunt.
02:24The judge's conduct, they say, compromises judicial impartiality.
02:28He allegedly shows favour to a particular advocate.
02:32And he delivers orders tinted with political ideology.
02:37The BJP has seized the moment, calling the impeachment attempt proof of what it calls the opposition's anti-Hindu, anti-Constitution face.
02:46This is the sentiment of Hindus for 100 years.
02:52And this is the right of each and every Hindu in Tamil Nadu.
02:57So we cannot, if we go on giving impeachment for every judgment like this, there is no any end for that.
03:05The flashpoint was Justice Swaminathan's order to light the lamp on the Deepithon pillar atop the Thiruparan Kundram Hill,
03:14raising objections from Dargah management.
03:17The order was not implemented by the Tamil Nadu government, igniting protests by the BJP and right-wing groups.
03:24Chief Minister M.K. Stalin hit back hard, accusing political rivals of weaponising the Deepam for cheap politics and having a right mindset.
03:33The DMK knows it does not have the numbers.
03:57This impeachment motion won't topple a judge.
04:00But they hope to send a loud, unmistakable message ahead of the 2026 Tamil Nadu battle.
04:10Bureau Report, India Today.
04:30AIA DMK and Ramaswamy Mayappan is an advocate of the Madras High Court.
04:35Ramaswamy Mayappan, I am looking at this notice which has been moved by the India bloc because it of course has the DMK,
04:44but there are other MPs of the India bloc who are part of this, who are signatories in this one.
04:49They say that the conduct of Justice J.R. Swaminathan raises serious questions regarding impartiality, transparency and secular functioning of the judiciary.
04:59I find it funny when the DMK and their allies in the India bloc raise these issues.
05:11One, they will have to look at the series of judgements that Justice J.R. Swaminathan has issued in his entire tenure.
05:19The DMK regime while in office has received favourable judgements and the DMK while in opposition and not in office has received judgements in its favour.
05:31So are they questioning of partiality in their favour at that point in time and today when they look at this particular judgment which they are not able to reconcile or which they are not able to assail on appeal or which they were not able to assail in contempt and which they were not able to assail in a letters patent appeal and they are not able to bring it up before the Supreme Court yet.
05:51Given they've had all these backlags and whatever negative elements, they have no other recourse rather than make personal accusations, one.
06:01There's not even an ounce of proof for this.
06:05Okay.
06:06And the most important factor that comes to judiciary is their neutrality.
06:12The assumption is once someone is placed in office is their neutrality.
06:15You assess them by the orders that they pronounce and how audience is provided to them.
06:20The very same judge J.R. Swaminathan has given audience to persons who have made individual accusations against him in the past.
06:27Journalists or YouTube bloggers who have raised issues against him have received favourable verdicts from him after having audience either in-person hearing or through their counsel.
06:38So that's the nature of this judge.
06:40His record speaks for itself.
06:42He has one of the highest support.
06:43Okay.
06:44So then if the record speaks for itself, why is Mr. Dharani Dharan, DMK, moving this motion?
06:51Many are calling this political intimidation.
06:58Thank you for having me in your show.
07:00I think this is also stack three is to one.
07:03But having also said that, which is what my colleague spoke prior is not the truth.
07:09In fact, as recently, there is a problem with your network.
07:27We will try and fix that.
07:28In the meanwhile, S.G. Surya come in on this.
07:30Your party has called the DMK's move as anti-Hindu and anti-constitution.
07:35But is the BJP genuinely defending faith or trying to politically capitalise ahead of 2026?
07:46I will give you explanations for both the accusations, anti-constitution and anti-Hindu.
07:52Why anti-constitution is because DMK, whenever it fails to win in the courts, it comes to the streets and tries to create riots and mutiny in the country.
08:01This has been evident from the last 50-60 years of DMK's existence.
08:05The state government was given ample opportunity in the courts to present their case.
08:10They did not present any facts in the case, no historical evidences, no proper arguments, because they have a very weak case.
08:17The things that people like Ms. Kanimuri comes out and speaks saying that it is a survey stone and it is not a deep pathoon are totally contradictory to what they have spoken in the court or what they have argued in the court.
08:30In the court, the DMK agrees that this deep pathoon is the place where for thousands of years lamp was lit.
08:38But only because in the last few decades it was lit in a different place, we will not allow the lamp to be lit in the deep pathoon.
08:45But see the political argument of the DMK party, they claim this is a survey stone and this is not a deep pathoon at all.
08:52So, there is contradiction in both the places.
08:54Secondly, even until now, the state government is unable to give proper records on when Section 144, the curfew was implemented in the city of Madurai.
09:06I was present, Maria, will you believe I was present in Madurai same day expecting the lamp to be lit.
09:13I was there at 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock.
09:17None of us were told Section 144 is imposed in the city because we were all in groups, we were in hundreds and thousands in the road.
09:24We were not told Section 144 was implemented in the city.
09:28But in the courts, they say we have imposed Section 144 at 6 p.m.
09:32If they had implemented at 6 p.m., they should have dispersed all the crowd.
09:37How are we standing in the streets until 9 p.m. with all our colleagues in thousands and hundreds in number?
09:43So, they are manipulating every record.
09:45I will just leave.
09:46I am hoping Mr. Dharmidhan will be able to respond to all that.
09:50Let's try and connect with him.
09:51Please, one second.
09:52Yes, quickly finish your point.
09:53I will read the part of the judgment given by the two justices in the Madurai court.
09:59Thus, it is very obvious that Section 163 of BNSS, which is primarily 144, order is passed prior to the judicial order or the records are manipulated after this court calls for the original file.
10:13So, they are manipulating the records which is submitted in the court.
10:16There is no genuinity in DMK to handle this issue.
10:20They are preserving only the oat bank.
10:22That is our acquisition.
10:23AIA DMK, Kovai Satyan, where does the AIA DMK stand?
10:30Okay, I can see Mr. Dharmidhan.
10:32Please, let him respond to this because as he said, it is going to be 1 is 2, 3.
10:37But Mr. Dharmidhan, the point that has been made here is also, the fact is that you don't have the numbers.
10:43You lack the numbers to impeach the judge.
10:45So, what really is the objective?
10:47Is it mere symbolism or you are sure of strength trying to send a message ahead of the 2026 polls?
10:54The answer, sorry, unfortunately, I couldn't hear S.J. Surya because of the network, he had to rejoin a different network.
10:59But I would like to reply to Mr. Mayepin.
11:03Right.
11:04So, the 38-page petition filed by Advocate Vanjinathan, he has cited 15 allegations by the same justice.
11:11You know who heard the own petition against him, the contempt proceedings?
11:16Justice Swaminathan himself presided over.
11:19In fact, at least a retired judge wrote against this to the Chief Justice of the Madras High Court.
11:24In fact, time and again, for example, from 2024 July, the same justice was sitting in an event with H. Raja, a BJP political leader,
11:34and he was talking against the ideology of DMK, the Dravidian model, and then against the late Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Kalaniya Karnanaji, mocking him.
11:43This is not the first time I can give you at least 10 anecdotes like this.
11:46And in a case, in a sitting bench, he has made a remark that non-Brahmanans are not fit to be priests.
11:54Third, in Lavanya suicide case, he is the one who said there was forced conversion, transferred the case to CBI.
12:01When my government has said there is no forced conversion, CBI came, did the investigation, said no forced conversion.
12:07So, there is a number of issues.
12:09So, this makes us feel that he is behaving in a partisan manner, that he has an ideology, which is...
12:16So, for a judge sitting, just to have an ideology, to have an opinion, to act with bias, it is not right.
12:21Which is why we have checks and balance.
12:23The judiciary to check the legislature, the legislature to check on the...
12:26But, yes, we understand that.
12:28But the question is also about the numbers.
12:30We don't have an impeachment proceeding.
12:32But it's also about the numbers.
12:33You know that you do not have the numbers.
12:35I'm coming there.
12:36The first impeachment procedure in this country was against a sitting judge, was brought about by the BJP in 91,
12:42when it did not have the numbers at all.
12:44Okay.
12:44So, it's about messaging.
12:45So, it's very clear it's about the messaging.
12:46I'm coming there.
12:47No, no, no.
12:48I'm not saying that.
12:48One second.
12:49It is not about that.
12:50We have Westminster system.
12:52Right?
12:53Because the parties are different, you cannot meet the individual parliamentarians who would not vote otherwise.
12:58That's not how the system was designed.
13:00Okay.
13:00Let me ask AIA-DMK now.
13:03Kowai Satyan, where does the AIA-DMK stand in all this?
13:07It is with the judiciary, with the faith or against DMK politics?
13:12Our ideology, we don't take sides based on caste, creed and religion.
13:19But what is more important is how a government missionary and how an incompetent government can peddle narratives on the religious lines and divide people for vote bank politics.
13:31That's what DMK is doing right now.
13:33In other four months, we are going to face elections.
13:35DMK and their ecosystem are convinced that they are not going to come back to power.
13:41So, they need something to face the elections, upcoming elections.
13:45And they see this as an opportunity.
13:48And they are playing this card on religious divide.
13:51They have no merits, as zero merits.
13:53What simple.
13:54They say that we are trying to avoid religious tension and religious function.
13:59And we are trying to bring peace and harmony.
14:02There were nothing of that sort.
14:04There were no indications of that sort.
14:052005, a peace committee meeting was held by our leader, Jailarita, between the vested interest parties, the representatives of the Dargah and the representative of the Hindu religion.
14:16And they agreed for a compromise.
14:18And there were no such efforts by this government so far.
14:21It has gone to the judiciary.
14:23And this government has the audacity to go and tell the common men and the people that we will not avoid by the verdict of the judiciary.
14:29And above, on top of it, they have started to paint the religious colourful picture on a sitting judge.
14:33You speak of secularism.
14:36Yet your party has deeply inserted itself into a temple-linked issue.
14:43So, the question is, has the DMK changed its traditional rationalist stance under electoral pressure?
14:49That's what is being talked about by your political opponents.
14:54I would like to ask the AADMK friend of mine.
14:57His own party leaders, former ministers Jai Kumar and Selur Raju, have gone ahead and said the custom-hold practice should continue.
15:06The practice of Mahadeebam in Uchi Pillaya Temple has been going for the last 150 to 200 years, even before the Justice Party was founded.
15:15In fact, the cases, verdicts in 1996, 2014 and 2017, 14 and 17, once under Chief Minister Jailarita as well.
15:24The government was of the opinion that Deebam has to be lived in Uchi Pillaya Temple.
15:31So, during ADMK time in the 80s and alternating between 1991 until 2021, ADMK stance on the matter was all the same.
15:41Even now, his party is divided.
15:43His two sitting senior leaders have gone and said the practice of Uchi Pillaya Temple where the Deebam is lit should continue.
15:50There should be communal harmony. There should be no communal disharmony.
15:54So, ADMK is now left with no option because there is the BJP.
15:59This is the same template the BJP used in 1991 across India to come in strength, to create communal disharmony, create violence.
16:06Thereby they win.
16:07Okay.
16:07Okay.
16:08S.G. Surya.
16:09Can I make my point?
16:10S.G. Surya, the charge is that you are weaponizing religion.
16:13In the same way, one would say that you can accuse the DMK of trying to weaponize the judiciary.
16:21No, Maria.
16:22We, the parties have argued in the courts five and square.
16:26The government was given enough time to represent their case, but they represented it.
16:31But it was not accepted by the courts.
16:33Now, the duty of the government is to implement the judgment of the high court.
16:37They had even gone for an appeal to a two-judge bench, which again overruled, which again confirmed the single-judge order.
16:45Now, the question is whether DMK is duty-bound to implement a high court order or not.
16:50They are saying we have gone to a Supreme Court, so we will not implement the order.
16:53So, my only question is, if somebody has committed a murder and he is convicted in a high court or a trial court, he says, I will go and appeal to a Supreme Court, so you do not arrest me.
17:04Is it a valid argument?
17:06Similarly, the government says we will not implement an order because it is against our ideology or we do not like the order.
17:12I don't think so.
17:13Is it acceptable?
17:14That example that you have given really holds here.
17:17But let me bring in Mr. Mayappan.
17:19No.
17:20Yes, please.
17:20Go ahead, Kovai Satyan.
17:21And then I bring in Mr. Mayappan.
17:23Yes.
17:24History in Tamil Nadu will say whenever DMK is in power, there will be communal tension, there will be unrest in the society.
17:32The 1998 serial bomb blast in Kwaiput took place when DMK was in power.
17:36Two, three years ago, a cylinder blast, that's how it has been termed, a terrorist attacker termed a cylinder blast.
17:42DMK takes religion into their hands for appeasement and vote bank politics.
17:47That's the history.
17:48And this issue for DMK is they want to see bloodbath.
17:51Because elections are around the corner.
17:54They have no merits to go and face the people as achievements.
17:57All they are waiting for an opportunity like this to divide the society.
18:01You are shifting completely away from the Dravidian politics.
18:05Mr. Dhani Dharan.
18:06Yeah, I think one can say whatever they want, but it is there to see where what my government doesn't.
18:11That's why we've been winning elections in 2019, 2021, 2024, 2022, municipal election.
18:17And then the number of by-elections that happen in between.
18:20And a vote share is intact.
18:22So that's not a problem.
18:23But I think there are three issues which we are confusing.
18:26First is the impeachment, right or wrong.
18:28That is the debate.
18:29And second is, is the deep home being lit in Mushi Pillaya Temple, right or wrong?
18:32That is the second.
18:33And third point is the high court order.
18:36Impeachment, I've already explained why it was right.
18:38Because it is not just to do with this even, but also to do with the fact that the judge
18:43behaving in a partisan manner or not, right?
18:46It's about judicial, non-partialism as a judicial activism.
18:51We are not against judicial activism if someone wants to change 150-year-old practice.
18:54But a judge being prejudiced towards caste, creed or color is not acceptable.
19:02And second, deep home.
19:03This is the practice, even archaeological service, say it was in Mushi Pillaya Temple,
19:061,000 years back.
19:07There are reasons for it.
19:09And also for the last 150 years, 200 years back.
19:11And it's a place for example, not just for India, across the world where two religions
19:16can coexist harmoniously.
19:18You go, when the deep home is lit in Mushi Pillaya Temple, both Hindus and Muslims congregate
19:22there together.
19:23In the foothills, also there are shops of both Muslims and Hindus.
19:27It is a role model for the world.
19:30This is how it's been continuing.
19:31Even this Jia Swaminathan judgment, there is two contradictions.
19:34Paragraph 7 says that they did not agree, sorry, the Muslims at Darghar did not allow
19:41for deep home to be lit at the temple.
19:44And then in 40, he says, oh, in 2005, there was a compromise.
19:48That that itself is a contradiction.
19:49Third, the reason for the order was also because the chief minister did his job to maintain
19:54the harmony.
19:55Having legitimacy of the A6.4 crore population, he will also have to listen to the voice of
20:00the people who prefer that the same arrangements continue.
20:03It's always a very philosophical question in politics.
20:07Do you listen to your elected people with whom you get legitimacy?
20:11Which is very important for any elected leader.
20:13But it can also be said that you are in power, you are trying to misuse what you are seeing
20:22as tools of judicial accountability.
20:26And another point which I may have missed is also the fact that we are accountable to
20:30the people.
20:31And secondly and foremost, it was not the Hindus nor the temple administration that was
20:35told, that was going to light the deep home.
20:37It was private individuals who, and then the intelligence report said there could be
20:42communal violence there.
20:44Do we let people die because of a communal violence?
20:47Do we not have...
20:48Okay, I'm just...
20:49Okay, quickly.
20:51Yes, yes, Mr. Surya, respond to that and then I'll give the last one to Ramaswami Mahi Appani.
20:57Please go ahead, Surya.
20:57No, no, this is how facts are twisted.
21:00The judgment clearly asked the temple authorities and the temple gurukal to...
21:03Mr. Mahi Appani, just wait.
21:05Let Mr. Surya finish his point.
21:07Yes, go ahead.
21:07The judgment clearly says the temple should light the lamp.
21:11The priest should light the lamp.
21:13In case of the temple priest fails, the petitioners can light the lamp with the help of the CISF
21:19security.
21:20It is because the state government and the HRNC department refused to do its job.
21:25Alternate prayer came into execution, which was already preferred by the petitioner.
21:30So to say that the petitioners were allowed to light the lamp is factually wrong because
21:35the temple was asked to do its duty.
21:36Let me get the facts from Ramaswami Mahi Appani.
21:39Go ahead.
21:40See, two of the three issues raised by Mr. Salem Dharanidharan.
21:42One, on the judgment, they are completely wrong.
21:45The 1923 judgment going all the way up to the Privy Council grants complete and total rights
21:49for the Hindus and for the temple authorities to do all religious activities in the entire
21:54hill except for where the Darga is located and the eastman tree right to the Darga and
21:5915 meters, sorry, 15 feet away from where the Darga and the path is located.
22:03That's the judgment of the Privy Council.
22:05That's the judgment of the Munsif court.
22:08So therefore, all religious activity can take place.
22:10One, their argument that intentionally some of the authorities chose not to perform a few
22:15activities does not mean that age-old activities should not be performed.
22:19Three, they are talking about impeachment.
22:22They do not have the ethical and moral standpoint to even raise that issue.
22:27They will have to be an impartial government to have at least fulfilled their manifesto to
22:30have stipulated to the law.
22:31When there is an order of the court, they should have gone on appeal, they should have obtained
22:34a stay.
22:35They have not been able to obtain a stay, which means they should have implemented the
22:37order.
22:38Therefore, if they expect the people to follow law and order, the government will have to
22:42start.
22:43The government, not having set a good example, does not have the moral standpoint to even
22:47raise this issue.
22:48So, and a judge neutral is judged only by the orders that he's passed.
22:52They can't raise one issue on that ground.
22:54The fact is that the India Bloc doesn't really have the numbers, but it's about symbolism.
22:59It's about sending a message.
23:01And that's what the DMK-led India Bloc has managed to do in this, you know, when they
23:07have moved this motion for impeachment of Justice Swaminathan.
23:13Thank you so much for joining us, S.G.
23:15Surya, Salam Dhani, Dharan Kovai Satyam and Ramaswami Mayap.
23:19And that's all from me.
23:20I'll be seeing you tomorrow.
23:21Thanks so much for watching.
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