00:00NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte has called for a joint peace plan for Ukraine put forward
00:05by the US and Europe, saying it would test Vladimir Putin, who Rutte said is simply buying
00:11time to continue the war.
00:13The speech in Berlin was an attempt to get NATO allies working together amid fractured
00:18transatlantic relations.
00:20Case in point, Denmark's military intelligence agency this week classed the US as a security
00:24risk for the first time, and US Media Defence One claims a leaked document shows Trump intending
00:30to pull Austria, Italy, Hungary and Poland away from the EU.
00:36Elizabeth Braw joins us from London, she's a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's Transatlantic
00:41Security Initiative in the Scowcroft Centre for Strategy and Security.
00:46Thanks for speaking to France24.
00:50It's my pleasure.
00:51So first up, obviously as an Atlanticist think tanker, you're kind of on the front lines
00:57of these fractures.
00:59Is this crisis mode for what the Atlantic Council does right now?
01:04Well, the Atlantic Council doesn't take a position on policy issues, but I can say as somebody
01:12who analyzes these relations on a daily basis for Denmark, which you mentioned first, it is an
01:22exceptional situation.
01:23Denmark has been a modern ally of the United States and its other NATO partners for decades.
01:30It has never asked for any special treatment.
01:35Germany has loyally participated in all kinds of activities within NATO and has, by the way,
01:44also asked for any exceptions for its soldiers being sent in harm's way.
01:48That makes it very unusual.
01:50And then for it to be faced with the various statements by American representatives regarding
01:59Greenland puts it in a very, very difficult position.
02:03So it's it's it's no surprise that the American statements and activities regarding Greenland are
02:11part of or were included in in this intelligence assessment simply because it is no news to anybody
02:19that it has happened.
02:20It has been widely reported and now Denmark has to has to figure out what to do about it.
02:26Part of the work of the Atlantic Council, I mean, is trying to get both sides of the Atlantic to
02:31understand each other, if I'm not mistaken.
02:34So is this now the hardest time to achieve that mission, to help different sides of the Atlantic
02:41really understand the benefits of a transatlantic alliance?
02:47Well, what is clear is that what we have taken for granted since World War Two, really since the
02:53end of World War Two and the beginning of the Cold War, which is that a transatlantic alliance
03:01of the United States, Canada and European liberal democracies, that that's the understanding that that is
03:09beneficial seems not to be as obvious as be as it has been in the past.
03:16It is obvious to most of those countries.
03:18But to the to the regrets of of Canada and European countries, the winds seem to be turning in certain
03:30quarters in Washington. And the challenge is if your relation, if the way your foreign and security policy
03:38is set up is set up on the basis of of a joint Western position vis a vis the troubles of the world, be it Russia, be it China or the troublemakers, potential and real of the world, then if that alliance seems to be becoming shakier, then that that is a real problem.
04:04And that's why we are, I think, very lucky that European countries among themselves are holding strong.
04:12And it is remarkable that within Europe, within the EU and within the European side of NATO, those countries are holding together, are standing strong.
04:24There would be plenty of reasons for them to disagree, to to be bickering.
04:30They are not. They are showing a united front.
04:32And that's something we should be very pleased about.
04:34So the reason we're talking about this now is because in the last week or so, Donald Trump has made his his most strongest comments yet criticising Europe.
04:44Why do you think he's going particularly hard on Europe at this moment in time?
04:53We would all, I think, like to understand Donald Trump's mind.
04:58But from from from what I can tell, he he has inaccurate information regarding Europe.
05:08He hasn't lived in Europe. His information, the information that reaches him about the way we do things in Europe doesn't seem to be completely accurate.
05:20And he seems to, as a result, come to conclusions regarding Europe that are that don't reflect reality.
05:31And I wish he had the opportunity to come and live in Europe.
05:36I think he would come away with a very different picture.
05:39That is not going to happen.
05:41But the reality is now that European countries have to European governments and other representatives, by the way, have to try to convince the president that that the real Europe is different from from the Europe that he sees in various things that he reads and watches on television.
06:07And that's why it's it's good that we have this this group of this core group of European leaders who have taken it upon themselves to go to Washington.
06:16President Macron, President Chancellor Mertz, Prime Minister Maloney and others.
06:25And it's a very good thing that they they essentially have volunteered to go to Washington occasionally to to make the case for Europe.
06:34And again, what a good thing it is that that European countries are united.
06:39And it seems like for European countries at the moment, you've got two choices.
06:44You just brace yourselves, put on a smiling face and hope for the dial to eventually turn back in the US.
06:52Or you do, you know, take the kind of move that we're seeing from the Danish intelligence now, which is to just to strike your own path.
07:01Is this the dichotomy that European countries face and which direction are they heading in?
07:05It is definitely a dichotomy regarding the Danish intelligence assessment.
07:12There was just no other option for the Danish intelligence service to other than including the US statements and activities regarding Greenland.
07:23If another country had been engaging in or making those kinds of statements and engaging in those kinds of activities, it would have been included for sure.
07:32So for Denmark not to include it, then the public would have asked why is the intelligence agency keeping that out?
07:41So you have to, as an intelligence agency, when you make your assessment, you have to accurately reflect the state of affairs.
07:50That's why that was included. I think we'll see similar situations in other countries.
07:56Denmark is the country that's most exposed simply because Greenland does belong to Denmark and the United States has shown incredible interest in Greenland.
08:09But other European countries may find themselves in similar situations.
08:13They have to be similarly transparent and honest about the risks and uncertainties facing their countries while also trying to keep Donald Trump on board because further deepening the transatlantic divide would only benefit Russia and China.
08:34And that's something nobody wants. But I think what we are already seeing is, for example, European companies try to focus more on Europe and potentially countries such as India.
08:50They were beginning to try to expose, try to reduce their exposure to China a few years ago.
08:57The United States was seen as a country to which they could French or now they may think twice about the United States as a destination for foreign direct investment.
09:09They may look more at other European countries. They may look more again at India.
09:15So we are seeing quietly developments happening that essentially will eventually widen the divide between the United States and Europe.
09:33But the most important thing is keep the political front united because the most important threat at the moment is Russia.
09:41I'm afraid to interrupt you there, but thank you very much for your time.
09:45That's all we've got time for on that segment.
09:47Appreciate that. Elizabeth Brawl from the Atlantic Council in London.
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