- 7 weeks ago
In this special report, a panel discusses the government's decision to retract the mandatory pre-installation of a cyber security app. While the government maintains the tool is for safety, opposition representatives question the lack of privacy audits and the legality of the initial directive. The discussion also covers recent parliamentary protests regarding air pollution levels in the capital and a privilege motion controversy involving a Member of Parliament.
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00:00All right, before we cut across to our panelists this evening, the questions that we put forth.
00:05Did the government backtrack because of public outrage and not voluntary uptake as they seem to suggest that many have already downloaded the app?
00:13So what's the need?
00:14The second question we ask, the rollback, which we now see, a political retreat of sorts disguised as user acceptance of the app.
00:22And a question that is still being raised, who signed off on the mandate?
00:27Did anyone ever check its illegality or even its constitutionality?
00:31And lastly, will the government release privacy audit of Sanchar Sati to address which are clear and simple surveillance concerns?
00:39Let's take all these questions to our guests this evening.
00:42Joining me, Rohan Gupta, National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party, Adil Singh Bhoparoy, National Spokesperson, Congress,
00:48Kanish Gaur, founder, India Future Foundation, cyber security expert, and N.S. Napinai, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court and founder, Cyber Sati.
00:58I'd like to begin with, all of you will get two minutes' time to put your point forward.
01:02Rohan Gupta, beginning with you.
01:05Clearly, what happened, Rohan Gupta, something till yesterday was that we, you know, it's voluntary, you can delete it.
01:11It started off with being mandatory, then it became voluntary, and now there is no need to even pre-install this app.
01:18What's this complete U-turn?
01:21See, I don't know why anything which is for the people of this country becomes anti-opposition.
01:27This is the really, really poor mindset where opposition parties are questioning each and everything.
01:32Before this...
01:32Once again, I'll hold the time.
01:34Forget the opposition, sir.
01:35I'm asking you.
01:36It is...
01:37I'm coming...
01:37The U-turn has come from your very own government.
01:39No, absolutely no.
01:40There is no U-turn.
01:41So, what led to this...
01:41I'll cover all the points.
01:43What is this now, you know...
01:44I will cover all the points.
01:45You...
01:45The rollback is this political retreat disguised as...
01:48No.
01:49User acceptance.
01:50No.
01:50No.
01:51Is this because you are now backing off because of public outrage, and not because you suddenly seem to suggest so many people...
01:57I will answer...
01:58I will answer...
01:58...didn't you not know this earlier?
01:59Go ahead, sir.
02:00Had you waited, I would have covered all the points.
02:03But nonetheless, I'll cover all the points.
02:05No worries.
02:06See, basically, already 1.5 crore users are already using this app.
02:10This is basically a cyber security tool.
02:12Like, you also have a phone.
02:14There are maybe 50 apps which are pre-installed or already there.
02:18It doesn't mean that that app is using your data.
02:20Unless you go into that app, put your things, nothing happens.
02:24This is just a facility which is available in your phone.
02:27Mind you, 20 crore people have already used this portal.
02:29So, it is basically for a cyber security tool.
02:32If my phone is stolen, somebody misuse it, I can stop it.
02:35So, basically, the point what opposition is trying to make that each and every facility which is given by a government to stop the cyber fraud.
02:42If they are questioning that, what you can do?
02:44But still, still the government decides that, okay, if it is voluntary, let it be.
02:48It is not pre-installed.
02:49But then, it is somewhere, you know, removing that right from the common man where it was available on his phone and he have to go to the app store and download the app.
02:57But the question, again, I'm coming to the basic question, Pithi.
03:00There is no backtracking.
03:02It is the facility which was given by government on the phone as a pre-installed facility.
03:06Now, people will have to go and download.
03:09But this is purely a cyber security tool.
03:1120 crore people have already used.
03:13Lacks of phone have been traced, which were stolen.
03:16Lacks of IMI misuse have been detected.
03:18Every day, around more than 2,000 people are reporting the spam calls, international spam calls.
03:23So, basically, this is purely a cyber security tool.
03:26And opposition party, always as usual, without any kind of proof, they will just attack the government.
03:31And at the end of the day, when the truth will come out, they will backtrack their words.
03:35In past, also, this has happened that each and every point, they have questioned something which is offered by government.
03:40And when they don't have any evidence, they will just cry foul.
03:43So, I think I'm against this kind of mindset where anything which is good for the common people, they should take it positively rather than just opposing it.
03:51All right, your time is up.
03:52But, you know, the fact is, nobody is questioning the efficacy of this app of being a cyber security tool.
03:58What everyone is questioning is how it is mandatory.
04:03Allow me to download something.
04:04Don't decide for me that you are going to put an app and I don't have, you know, the ability or that I can't actually delete the app.
04:12That is what is being in question, Rohan Gupta.
04:14And if you say there is no backtrack, of course there is a backtrack.
04:17It started with what the Department of Telecommunications first, the first communication seemed to suggest very clearly that this app could not be deleted.
04:29That's what it was.
04:30And then there was a U-turn where it was said you can delete the app.
04:33Fine.
04:34You had, you know, companies like Apple push back and say that we are not going to allow it.
04:40And today, what is being, you know, communicated by the government is that we don't even need to pre-install it.
04:46So, what really happened, I'll circle back to you, but Adil Singh Boparoy, the fact is, much ado about nothing.
04:52This is a cyber security app.
04:55You know, there are a fair amount of complaints where cyber fraud is concerned.
04:58How do you control that?
05:00You actually, the government had given an option to people.
05:03You try to turn it around and make it a surveillance issue.
05:07Preeti, had this program gone through, this would have been the largest surveillance program which human mankind has seen.
05:17The largest surveillance program which any country has installed.
05:21And we are glad that the government has revoked and retracted on this.
05:25And this is obviously because of the pressure of the Congress Party and the general public outrage about intruding into people's lives.
05:34Point number one.
05:35Point number two, on a fundamental level of privacy.
05:39Why should the government decide which app should be there on my phone?
05:43It is my right.
05:45It is out of my volition.
05:46I will choose whether I want X app or Y app.
05:49The government cannot play the Orwellian state or be the Brickbrother and decide.
05:54Number two.
05:55Number three.
05:57Please see the intention of this government.
06:01First, they pass a directive without consulting relevant stakeholders.
06:05The parliament is in session.
06:07They did not consult any opposition party.
06:10And they issue a directive to all telephone manufacturers to pre-install this.
06:15Then, once the cat is out of the bag and there is pressure, they are forced to retract.
06:21So, therefore, this government repeatedly plays this game to intrude into human lives, which is absolutely undemocratic and unacceptable.
06:30Number four.
06:31To take my friend Rohan's point further.
06:34If their intention is to augment cyber security in this country, then the way forward is to empower cyber police stations.
06:43Give them the equipment to trace.
06:46Make them more responsive.
06:48Educate them.
06:49Give them scientific training.
06:52That is what you need.
06:53You need to strengthen your cyber police station.
06:56We all are cognizant of cyber frauds which take place.
06:59But this app is a backdoor.
07:01Priti, let me repeat.
07:02This app was a backdoor to intrude, listen, eavesdrop, and snoop on 1.5 billion Indians.
07:11All right.
07:11I want to cut across to Kanishkorp.
07:13Now, Kanishkorp, you know, the larger question now also is being raised by many, including many cyber experts,
07:18is that will the government now release a privacy audit of the Sanchar Saathi app?
07:24Idly, it should have done before bringing this app or mandating something like this.
07:29We have seen multiple government apps have major cyber security issues.
07:33Let's look at your DigiAatra app.
07:36Last week, there was a company which had cloned the DigiAatra app.
07:40And before that, a startup challenge was launched.
07:42And the personal identifiable information of millions of Indians was breached from the DigiAatra app.
07:50Before that, we had the COVID app as well.
07:52Now, when government wants to mandate such apps, they should have the right level of assurance.
07:56They should publish an independent report stating how this app will not be used for surveillance and it has the right level of safeguards to ensure privacy, which is a fundamental right of every citizen of India, is being implemented on ground.
08:11Mind you, the government is trying to bring in a data protection bill.
08:14And at the same time, if you're trying to put in such apps, then I don't know where this country is heading towards.
08:21So, we need to ensure that rather than just, you know, politicians coming and talking and saying, you know, the app is safe and secure,
08:28let's show it on ground by bringing in real technical analysis of such an app stating it's free and secure and you can use government's own machinery.
08:37You have independent assessors, auditors, certain panel auditors produce a report stating that this app is fully secure.
08:45It will safeguard personal identifiable information and the user data of millions of Indians will not be leaked to third parties or will not be misused by the government for surveillance.
08:55Where is that independent assessment right now?
08:57None of it exists, right?
08:58And there is no parliamentary consultation which has been done.
09:01No public consultation even involving civil society.
09:04Forget bringing in the tech companies.
09:06Now, when everyone is coming out and saying that this is not the way you operate in a democracy,
09:14then the government is going back and changing the method saying, okay, now you are free to use whether you want to download or not.
09:20It is not mandatory.
09:21So, I think there has to be a close correction here.
09:25All right.
09:26I want to bring in Ennis Napina into this conversation because privacy, surveillance, ma'am, seems to be a smoke and mirror game because there is already apprehensions.
09:34You're coming at the back of Pegasus where we still don't know.
09:37The court has mandated a committee.
09:38We still don't know what the findings of that committee was.
09:40You know, the first thing I want to comment on is to say, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
09:48You know, it's a good move that the government has done now.
09:51I'm glad that they have recalled this directive.
09:55Needless to add that the directive per se itself was unsustainable.
09:59But whatever the reason, they have recalled it.
10:02So, I want to, you know, add here on what ought to be done going forward.
10:08Now, your concern, I'm talking to the government here, of course.
10:12Your concern is that there are a lot of crimes that are being committed and that you must find a solution to stop the misuse of stolen phones.
10:22So, find a less intrusive option.
10:26Needless to add that Sanchar Sati per se, as you rightly said, ma'am, it's not, it was never about the app or the service.
10:33It was about it being forced on users.
10:37That was impermissible.
10:39Nobody is questioning that this may be a good service.
10:42So, let people decide.
10:44And meanwhile, as the other panelists have shared, ensure that there is transparency in the manner in which the app is going to function.
10:56What are the kind of data that you're going to collect?
10:59How are you going to use it?
11:01How long is it going to be stored or retained?
11:04Who all are you going to transfer it to?
11:06My concern arises because there was a very strange move a while back, a few years back, where our license details and driving, the vehicle registration details under Vahan and Sati were actually sold by the government.
11:24See, these are not details we have the option to share or not.
11:28When you're collecting data as a governance process, it cannot be shared with public, private parties on the ground that the government is making some money.
11:38My data is not available for sale.
11:41And the Data Protection Act includes the state.
11:45Ma'am, your time is up.
11:47You know, I'm running out of time, but I'd like to give one minute each to all our panelists.
11:50And Rohan Gupta, the fact is, the other question is, if one had to only retract, you know, after a fair amount of pushback, both politically and otherwise, did anyone think over the legality of it or rather even the constitutionality of this app?
12:06One minute, sir.
12:06Priti, I think you are mixing, you are mixing two things.
12:09Retraction is not of the app.
12:11Retraction is of the pre-installation of the app.
12:13Exactly.
12:13Mind you, 20 crore users.
12:15So that's what I'm saying, Priti.
12:16So app is not stopped.
12:17People are still using it.
12:18The constitutionality of having it pre-installed, that's what I'm questioning.
12:23Make your point, sir.
12:24Can you let me complete?
12:25If you are also buying a phone, there are 50 apps which are pre-installed by the manufacturer.
12:29It doesn't mean that those apps are snooping on you or they are getting your details.
12:33No, it's a facility.
12:34Whether you want to use it, don't want to use it, that's up to you.
12:37And what kind of things this app is doing?
12:39It is reporting of suspected frauds, blocked or stolen phone, know the mobile number connections in your name,
12:45know the genuineness of the mobile set you are buying.
12:48So what data this app is taking?
12:50Absolutely no data.
12:51This is just to help the user.
12:53This is what I'm saying.
12:54Definitely you can question the process and all.
12:56But when you question the government's intention, at least you should have proof rather than just throwing stone in air.
13:02And that's why government, before they question unnecessarily the intention of the government,
13:06the pre-installation is stopped.
13:08That doesn't mean that the app is stopped.
13:09People are still going and yesterday only there are more than 8 lakh nipples.
13:13Rohan Bhutani, I think you're missing the woods for the trees here.
13:15Nobody is questioning the efficacy of the app.
13:17The app, in effect, is great.
13:19I was actually thinking, because I've lost two phones, I was actually thinking of downloading it.
13:23But you can't tell me that it's going to be pre-mandated.
13:25You can't tell me that it's going to come pre-installed.
13:30It's pro-choice, no, sir?
13:31And that is the right to privacy.
13:32One minute to the Congress spokesperson.
13:35Go ahead.
13:35Preeti, the defining feature of this party in government is intimidation.
13:43So how do you intimidate people?
13:44You intimidate people by carrying on out a massive surveillance program and you start digging in their personal information.
13:52So in the guise of a very benign so-called cyber security, IMEI protective app, this was a mass surveillance program.
14:02I think that's beyond any pale of doubt, number one.
14:05Number two, this government has a habit of thrusting its half-baked policies, which lack intellect, which lack constitutionality, which lack international best practices, onto the people.
14:19And once there is sustained pressure, they withdraw.
14:22So I think it is in the interest of the government to consult stakeholders and those individuals who understand systems.
14:31Of course, cyber security needs to be strengthened, but it needs to be done in a scientific way.
14:37All right, Kanish, go to pull you in because, you know, the intent of the government is clear and the intent was right.
14:45We do need something to strengthen cyber security.
14:48There is cyber fraud in this country.
14:50There's nothing really wrong with the app.
14:51I was actually thinking of installing it.
14:53But what was wrong in the manner in which it was being pushed through?
14:56Do you think the government was trying to test waters to see if they can?
15:00See, the government did not build the right level of privacy and trust.
15:06If you have to build something like this and take it at a mass level, you need to have reasonable assurance, testing and standards rolled out.
15:13You need to have a clear standard operating procedure saying that you are going to deduce this app.
15:18Firstly, get in the parliamentarians.
15:21Was the parliamentary standing committee informed about this decision?
15:25Was it even discussed?
15:26If they were trying to build this app out and it was this app existed for so long, suddenly what is the need of bringing this out without taking informed consent from different users?
15:38Why were some of the tech companies on whom it was imposed not even consulted once?
15:44Why you had to face backlash from companies like Apple saying, we will not go ahead and install this app?
15:51Right?
15:51And that's pure embarrassment.
15:53All of this could have been avoided if the government would have followed a democratic procedure.
15:57You know, in some of the other laws which Ministry of Electronics has come out, there were public consultations organized.
16:04Sorry, the time's up.
16:05You know, I've run out of time.
16:06Enes Napanai, your final one minute, ma'am.
16:08Last submission.
16:09Go ahead.
16:10Yeah.
16:11So, there was this question raised by the government person, spokesperson, about, you know, lack of trust.
16:19The issue, sir, here is not about lack of trust.
16:21It's the government's duty and responsibility that we are questioning.
16:26You have the duty to protect us against scams.
16:30At the same time, you do not have the right to intrude on our privacy whilst, you know, complying with your responsibility.
16:39So, when you say something has to come pre-installed, you do not, you as a government, do not stand on the same footing as corporate entities.
16:47When a corporate entity intrudes on our privacy, we have our rights against them.
16:52When the government intrudes on our privacy, it is a constitutional guarantee violation.
16:59And therefore, you will be answerable then when it comes to judicial review.
17:03This is the crux of the issue in terms of why it was recalled.
17:06I don't think it was a political diatribe that resulted in it.
17:10I would like to give the benefit of doubt to the government to say, wisdom through me.
17:15All right, time's up.
17:16Thank you, all four of you, for joining us.
17:18Like we said earlier, you know, nobody is questioning the efficacy of the app of being a security tool, a cyber security tool.
17:25What one question was how it was mandatory and pre-installed and something which I guess the government has realized and backtracked on.
17:32A quick break.
17:33Stay with me on the other side.
17:34Lots happening in the Parliament today.
17:35We're going to get you more.
17:36Stay tuned.
17:36Stay tuned.
18:06We need to talk, okay?
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23:34Well, Delhi is no stranger to abject poor air quality
23:54and right now, thankfully, it's seemingly become an issue
23:59where Parliament is concerned.
24:00The Congress today turned the spotlight on what it calls
24:04government inaction on pollution,
24:06staging dramatic protests outside the House.
24:09What you can see on your television screen
24:10is Congress MPs wearing masks in protest.
24:15Also, Sonia Gandhi, in an op-ed,
24:17has termed India's air pollution a slow-motion tragedy,
24:20warning citizens are being forced to breathe toxic air.
24:24In midst of all of this, inside Parliament,
24:27Congress MPs also, like I pointed out,
24:29donned masks and protested outside what they call was an air emergency.
24:34Taking a step further, Congress MP Imran Masood arrived with an oxygen cylinder,
24:39amplifying the party's charge and the capital is running out of breath.
24:43Now, the Congress trying to make a political statement of it
24:47at a point where inside Parliament,
24:49hours have been allotted to discuss one-day matram,
24:53but till now we haven't seen a constructive debate
24:55where pollution in the national capital
24:58and other cities in India is concerned.
25:01With that was one development today in Parliament.
25:05The other one also was also concerning a Congress leader,
25:10and this time it was Renuka Choudhury.
25:12Rao over Renuka Choudhury's dog bite intensifies.
25:15Remember, Renuka Choudhury had got her own dogs to Parliament
25:19and she was questioned on that account
25:22and why she had bought her dog.
25:24She says real dogs are inside.
25:26Today, there is word that the BJP might be moving
25:29a privilege motion against her.
25:31Responding to that question about the privilege motion,
25:34Renuka made a dog sound.
25:36Listen in.
25:36All right, two developments there.
25:54I want to bring in Rahul Gautam.
25:55Rahul Gautam, I think for most of us in Delhi,
25:58for the first time, many would be backing the opposition
26:02on the account of raising the pollution issue.
26:04How serious is the Congress to push forth
26:08for a debate on pollution in the Parliament?
26:11Number one.
26:12Number two, what's going on with Renuka Choudhury's
26:16possible privilege motion against her
26:18and her retorting in a woof rather than a statement?
26:23Well, as far as the air pollution distinction,
26:25I can tell you that it's one of the main reasons
26:29that as far as Congress distinction after air-sail-yard
26:31and there's a recent bomb platter that happened
26:33in the national capital.
26:35And, you know, Rahul Gautam, he can put out a video
26:38over in May of Nature, you know, people who are actually
26:43getting affected with the rise of the pollution.
26:46If you remember, he had a video earlier also
26:49with environmentalists at the India Gate.
26:51So, as far as Congress distinction and that's why you saw,
26:55you know, a member of parliament like Dipendir Bhuta,
26:59Ibran Massey, Stilch and Nolana,
27:02and clearly, you know, MC Strong,
27:05and Haryana are coming out with oxygen masks,
27:08just to put out a, you know, a message
27:11that the government is just not serious.
27:13In fact, Rahul Gandhi had said yesterday
27:14that the dog issue, Venuka Chaudhary's dog issue
27:18is being popped up only to, you know,
27:20just deviate or just, you know,
27:23distract from the issue of a rising air pollution.
27:25As far as Venuka Chaudhary's concern,
27:27Uriah team mentioned that when she was asked
27:29about a possible prison motion against her
27:32for bringing her dog in the car
27:34to which she safely said,
27:36and, you know, walked away.
27:38Obviously, it seemed that she's absolutely unfazed
27:41and unbetterled and it seems that, you know,
27:43she is, you know, possibly wetted.
27:46Okay, we'll know what comes of that.
27:48But like I said, on a serious note,
27:50we really do hope that pollution does become an issue
27:52that is discussed on the floor of the house.
27:54And many, many, not just in the national capital,
27:57would agree on that.
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