- 4 hours ago
On this Special Report, the focus is on the political face-off over the Centre's push for the 'Sanchar Saathi' app. While Telecom Minister Jyotiraditya Scindia clarified today that the app is "optional" and can be deleted, the Congress remains skeptical. Congress National Spokesperson Dr. Shama Mohamed argues the move mirrors "surveillance" tactics, citing the Pegasus controversy and questioning why the app was initially mandated for pre-installation. Countering her, BJP National Spokesperson Sanju Verma asserts the app is a critical tool against cyber fraud, claiming it has already helped block millions of suspicious connections. The debate escalates with personal barbs as both sides clash over privacy rights versus digital security.
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00:00Let's cut across to our debate this evening. Joining me is Sanju Verma, National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party, Shama Mohammed, National Spokesperson, Congress.
00:07Each of you will get two minutes to put your point forward. Shama, let's begin with you.
00:12The telecom minister today did come out and make it very clear that all of this is trying to build controversy where there is absolutely nothing.
00:21You don't want the app, delete the app. But at one point you wanted us to act against cyber fraud.
00:27We are trying to create a mechanism. And now you are accusing us of surveillance. Delete it. Don't use it. Who's telling you to use it?
00:34OK, let me start off with the telecom minister. I want to first ask, why do we need an app like this?
00:41Now you think cyber fraud. Do you think in America it doesn't happen? In Germany it doesn't happen?
00:46China. I mean, Germany and China, Germany and America are democracies. We know that.
00:52And many other European countries, UK, France, and they're all very up in technology.
00:57Why don't they use this? When I heard this today, I thought that India has given or is giving birth to the police of East Germany.
01:07So we are all going to be spied upon.
01:10Now, what did the telecom minister say, Jyotir Aditya Sintiya, that if you want you can delete it?
01:18All right. Now, what does the dot say? Let me read it out to you.
01:23Mandatory pre-installation, visibility and unrestrictable functionality, non-removability, system-level permissions, no user autonomy to disable.
01:35So they have also called up phone manufacturers, the Indian government, and said that you have to pre-load this on a new device and you have to see to it the users cannot disable.
01:49So if Jyotir Aditya Sintiya comes and lies, we cannot do anything. We need to see what is on paper.
01:56This is the government who, you know, did what we all know is get Pegasus here and was spying on multiple political leaders, phones, journalists, phones, and it has been proved.
02:05This is the government who went against right to privacy in the Supreme Court.
02:11So they are the ones who want to follow opposition leaders, journalists, where they are going, who they are meeting, what are their messages.
02:19This is invasion into my privacy and I will not allow it. The Congress Party will not allow it.
02:25We do not want to become East Germany. We do not want to become all those states during the Cold War where each one of the families fight on the other.
02:37Samar Mohamad, your time is up and I'll urge you to check your, you know, your internet connection.
02:43You know, it's a little sketchy, so just check it while we cut across to Sanju Verma for her two minutes.
02:48Sanju Verma, your two minutes start now. I just want, you know, for somebody who's very good and very big on documents,
02:53I go back to what the DOT, the Department of Telecommunication, which came out and, you know, I can happily read out to you on what it really said,
03:02which practically mandated that you cannot delete this app.
03:05And then you have the telecom minister today who's saying, who's asking you to keep it? You don't want to delete it.
03:11So clearly there has been a backtrack at the back of the backlash, which is not just the opposition,
03:17which is a lot of people in India who's saying you cannot mandatorily make us, you know, keep an app so that you can snoop on us.
03:25You know, Preeti, a very valid question. And let me just come straight to the point.
03:31When the, you know, Sanchar Hathi app was initiated in January 2025, the DOT did say that, you know,
03:41this is pre-installed and you cannot delete it. But 24 hours back, the man who really matters,
03:48Jyoti Raditya Sindhya, the minister of telecom, and I'm sitting here on your show,
03:52a widely watched show as the national spokesperson of BJP, telling you this app, if you want, you can activate it.
04:00If you want, you can deactivate it. If you want, you can uninstall it. Point number one.
04:07Point number two, let's be very clear that today we have more than 1.25 billion mobile phone users in India,
04:15one of the biggest numbers globally. We are one of the biggest mobile phone users globally.
04:19And there's a 15-digit unique IMEI. But increasingly, we are told that this IMEI number,
04:28which is supposedly unique, is being cloned by fraudsters. So what does the Sanchar Hathi app seek to do?
04:35It seeks to empower consumers by mitigating the possibility of cloning IMEI and thereby reining in frauds,
04:46frauds, beat banking frauds, cyber security frauds, so on you. But I just want to say this, Preeti.
04:52Benefits of the Sanchar Hathi app till now. 4.21 mobile phone devices were blocked before they could be misused.
04:592.61 mobile phones that were stolen were successfully traced.
05:0329 million citizens were able to verify the SIM card issued in their name.
05:08And with this app, more than 30 million fake connections were disconnected.
05:13In the month of October alone, more than 5-0, 50,000 phones were recovered due to this Sanchar Hathi app.
05:21So the Sanchar Hathi app enables to report suspicious calls, spams, malicious links,
05:27allows the blocking of lost of stolen phones.
05:29Ma'am, your time is up.
05:30Sanju Verma, the fact is, you know, the deal is you don't really need to detail on the benefits of the app.
05:36Nobody is really questioning the efficacy in terms of guarding security.
05:39Nobody is questioning that.
05:40The question is very clear that why is it mandated?
05:44It needs to be your choice if you want to download it.
05:48If you are going to make it mandatory for me,
05:50I am going to question that you are trying to, you know, build in surveillance into my phone,
05:54which I don't want.
05:55But I just want to bring in Shama Mohammed there.
05:57And Shama Mohammed, let's say there is a backtrack.
05:59Ms. Sanju Verma has admitted, yes, it was supposed to be mandatory.
06:02Now you have the telecom minister who has come out and said that it is not mandatory.
06:06So for those people, because away from, you know, snooping, away from surveillance,
06:12away from the whole concept how it is dystopian in nature,
06:15that it is inbuilt into your phones, away from all of that,
06:17there is a clear and present danger where cyber fraud and cyber crime comes into question.
06:23And an app like this can really help.
06:25And I know people who it has really helped with.
06:27So if you don't want it, delete it, but allow somebody to keep it.
06:36Ma'am, you're on mute.
06:37You're on mute, Shama Mohammed.
06:39No, I'm not on mute.
06:41Now you're okay, ma'am.
06:43Yeah.
06:43Go ahead.
06:43So my question is that if you're bringing in something, first and foremost,
06:50why to bring in something like this, saying that it will not be mandatory.
06:56That's what the minister said.
06:59Now I want to ask, how do I trust the minister?
07:02Has it come out in black and white?
07:04No.
07:05It's him saying it.
07:06Let it come out.
07:07One, on a piece of paper saying it's not mandatory.
07:10Number two, how do I trust this government?
07:13It says it's not mandatory.
07:14How do I know that even if I uninstall it, certain things like Pegasus can still creep into you.
07:21So you have it when you get it.
07:23They say uninstall it.
07:24But it could still be there because I don't trust this government.
07:27That is the thing.
07:29We know what happened with Pegasus.
07:30They still haven't told in parliament whether they used it or they did not use it.
07:35You see, they have not denied it.
07:37So why I believe this government likes to snoop on people.
07:41We have seen how vindictive this government is.
07:43Any politician, businessman who donates to the Congress party are gone after.
07:49Anybody who jumps into the party, into the BJP, ED stops their investigation.
07:55Politicians targeted, journalists targeted.
07:57So I do not want my privacy to be invaded.
08:00And I'm asking you, how does the United States, Canada, Germany, everywhere cyber crime happens?
08:07So better policing.
08:09There is a cyber crime center.
08:10Why should we have an app to do it?
08:12Do better policing, punishments, strict punishments.
08:15You know, there should be better ways of giving classes to older people.
08:20So there are many other ways, Preeti.
08:22But I will not accept something they say which is not mandatory.
08:26I do not want it.
08:27Because I clearly do not trust the government of India.
08:31They lie.
08:32Now Preeti is saying that, you know what, sorry, Sanju is saying, you know, it can be put, it cannot be put.
08:38We don't believe this government.
08:40How many times have they lied to us?
08:41Okay, ma'am, your time is up.
08:42I'll come back to you for your final two minutes later.
08:44I want to bring in Sanju Verma.
08:45Sanju Verma, you know, history stands testimony to the distrust that there is.
08:50And I'm not just talking on the part of the opposition.
08:52I'm talking about, you know, at the back of what happened with Pegasus, there was a court appointed committee.
08:57And nothing really, it's been inconclusive regarding whether or not Pegasus was used or not used.
09:03So we really don't know what came off that.
09:05So that's a gray area in any case.
09:07There is a different, you know, fight which is still on, you know, legally where Aadhaar is concerned.
09:14And where Digital Personal Data Protection Act comes into question.
09:17So therefore, when you say that this was mandatory, now it's not mandatory.
09:22I don't believe you, Sanju Verma.
09:23You're trying to snoop on me.
09:26Okay, Preeti.
09:27I just want to say this.
09:29You know, whether Preeti Chaudhary believes me or not, whether Shama Mohammed believes Sanju Verma or not, that is not important.
09:35What is important is let us stick to facts.
09:38Pegasus, Pegasus, Pegasus.
09:39I kept hearing on the debate.
09:41The Supreme Court asked Rahul Gandhi to submit his phone.
09:45He refused to do it.
09:46The Supreme Court clearly said, if you're worried about being snooped upon, why don't you submit your phone?
09:53Rahul Gandhi's politics is about shoot and spoole.
09:55I don't trust Rahul Gandhi.
09:57I don't trust, you know, his dim-wittedness.
09:59But I will tell you what, Preeti.
10:00Let's not forget, in 2010, on the floor of the parliament, his former prime minister, Manmohan Singh, admitted that under UPA2, on an average, every single year, 9,000 phones were being snooped upon and 500 email accounts were being snooped upon.
10:21And when pressurized by the opposition, he refused for a JPC, but did say that we are doing it because, you know, of national security concerns.
10:30And the entire Congress cabal said, Vajiva, who did Congress snooped upon?
10:35And this is not Sanju Verma giving wrong information on your show.
10:38RTI petitioner, Prasenjit Mandel, when he put in an RTI petition, he was informed.
10:45The Congress-led proxy government of Sonia Gandhi slash Manmohan Singh snooped upon Jay Jayalelita, snooped upon Karun Nanidi, snooped upon their own leader, Bharat Mukherjee, snooped upon Sitaram Yachuri, snooped upon Mamata Banerjee.
11:00And very recently, in 2023, April, Ved Prakash Solanki, a Congress M.A. from Rajasthan, said that Ashok Gehlod, the then CM, was snooping upon his own M.A.
11:11And this party comes and talks about data protection or cyber security.
11:17I mean, there is a limit to hypocrisy.
11:19I will just say this, that every year in the U.S., 15, 1, 5, 15 billion dollars worth of money is lost due to cyber science.
11:29Ma'am, your time is up. I'm going to give both of you one minute each.
11:32And you say that you're not going to believe me, like I'll actually tell you.
11:35I was actually mulling about installing the app because I've lost too many phones.
11:38But if you're going to say I'm going to do it for you, then I'm not doing it.
11:41So it has to be pro-choice.
11:43I know a lot of people who benefit out of the app, but you cannot mandate something like this.
11:48That's it.
11:49But I want to give both of you one minute each.
11:51Your time begins now, Shamaa Mohamad.
11:53One minute, closing arguments.
11:54Snooping, she talked about snooping without any evidence.
11:57And she's a liar.
11:58You know, nothing of this, we never snoop on leaders.
12:01Now, the who's one who snooped upon is the Prime Minister of India when he was a Gujarat
12:05Chief Minister on a lady who he wanted to, you know, have her or whatever.
12:10He's put her, she was snooping on her and they came out and told.
12:14We all know about it.
12:15So who's snooping?
12:16The Prime Minister of India.
12:17Because I'm not going to call him names just like Sanju Verma because she's of lower class.
12:21So I do not get along with such more.
12:22Let's stay clear of personal, both of you.
12:24And the other one is RTI.
12:25Please stay clear of personal attacks.
12:27Make your point, ma'am.
12:28Make your point.
12:28We came in.
12:29She was attacking Rahul Gandhi and she was calling him names.
12:32Did you say anything?
12:32That was a personal attack.
12:33Ma'am, I'm just, both of you, I'm, you know, it's a request to the both of you.
12:38So RTI is something which we got, all right, right to information to find out where corruption
12:44is, everything.
12:45You have watered it down.
12:47Whistle Blower Act, we tabled.
12:49You have, you don't even bother about it.
12:51Where is the Lokpal?
12:52So who is corrupt?
12:53Is the government of India, the present BJP government?
12:56And who prevents, who wants to snoop on everybody?
13:00Who wants to even snoop on the judges to see the judgment?
13:04Ma'am, time is up.
13:05Time is up.
13:06One minute, Sanju Verma starts now.
13:08I don't want to make this personal.
13:11Shama Mohammed says Sanju Verma is of lower class.
13:14All I will say is that the Kerala Congress leaders have called Shama Mohammed a clown.
13:19She's a clown who's not taken seriously.
13:21Okay, Shama Mohammed, I will not call you a mother-sa-bread bigot, but you're a clown.
13:26Now shut up.
13:27Now let me say one thing, Preeti.
13:29Now let me say one thing very quickly.
13:31You know, listen to this.
13:33Google Dialer is there on every Android phone, which reads your entire call log 24-7 and cannot be deleted.
13:42Then there is True Caller, which more than 40 crore Indians have installed, which gives complete access to your call log.
13:51People have no problem.
13:53Even in Apple phones, I have both Android and Apple phones.
13:57Apple, there is something called check for unwanted location trackers, which gives entire information about your background to Apple.
14:05People have no problem.
14:06Here the government is working on cyber security.
14:09Idiots like Shama Mohammed.
14:11Ma'am, time is up.
14:12Time is up.
14:13I'm going to leave it at that.
14:15Once again, you know, whatever you mandated, it's if I want to download True Caller, then I will download True Caller.
14:23I will give them access to my phone book because I choose to.
14:27You can't choose to make me give you access to my phone book.
14:31And that's where it rests.
14:32Once again, I will request both our panelists and whoever our panelists are in the future.
14:38You can use the time to put your party's point forward or attack each other.
14:42You can get into lowbrow attacks like lower class or idiot.
14:47But that's your call.
14:48Use it the way you want to.
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